Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: chris gadsden on August 11, 2013, 12:56:07 PM
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http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/
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Why is Almo's website down Chris?
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Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia (VHS) might be what those herring have.
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/disease/pdfs/fish_disease_book.pdf
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/viral_hemorrhagic_septicemia.pdf
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project1-Report.pdf#zoom=100
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So it ends up coming from farmed Salmon......
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Why is Almo's website down Chris?
Had not noticed, maybe you are banned from it. ;D ;D
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Had not noticed, maybe you are banned from it. ;D ;D
Well, I was not allowed to post on the site ... salmonaresacred.com
can others access this site?
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Well, I was not allowed to post on the site ... salmonaresacred.com
can others access this site?
Stop posting and just enjoy your holidays. ;D
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http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2013/08/11/bleeding-herring-discovery-alarms-bc-marine-biologist
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Alexandra Morton
"DFO has answered my request that they test the herring from northeastern Vancouver Island. They said they have not received any reports of a die-off, but their crew in the region is going to try to get samples if possible. I appreciate their response and I will be following up with them to see how it goes. I attribute the fast response to all of you who wrote to them. Thank you."
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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378113513003015
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"In British Columbia, Canada (BC), aquaculture of finfish in ocean netpens has the potential for pathogen transmission between wild and farmed species due to the sharing of an aquatic environment. "
I guess the frankenfishers don't care to comment on another problem. Maybe take another poke an Morton instead.
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First, maybe read what was actually posted before, TB.
If it is indeed VHS it could very well be the North American strain that is already endemic to the Pacific coast and has already been found and described in Pacific Herring. With Pacific Herring the virus appears to be more acutely lethal to juvenile fish than adult fish.
When you say "So it ends up coming from farmed Salmon......" does not tell the whole story because all viruses come from the wild. What happens is that wild fish spread this virus to farmed salmon (similarly to IHNv). Read this paper which describes it:
Molecular epidemiology of viral haemorrhagic septicaemia virus (VHSV) in British Columbia, Canada, reveals transmission from wild to farmed fish
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao_oa/d104p093.pdf
It goes hand-in-hand with the paper Chris posted (also a few of the authors are the same).
The paper that Chris posted is one that I had found last night; it suggests farmed Atlantic salmon can develop clinical signs of VHS and it can persist in the tissues for 10 weeks. VHSV-1Va (the strain in question) occurs annually in farmed salmon in BC and is already tested for along with other viruses like ISAv and IHNv. It should also be noted that farmed Atlantic salmon appear to have a low virulence to VHSV-IVa with no evidence of farm to farm spread; however, it does not mean we should not understand this virus more and it's possible implications to wild fish (the same way it can be transmitted to farmed fish from an epizootic VHSV event from herring or sardines). Understanding also applies to activists/biologists.
One thing that needs to be taken away from this work (that Morton will never tell you) is that it is not entirely clear what drives these outbreaks. This goes for many viruses. There are likely multiple factors at play that interact with the virus to determine how it will impact its host. Certain environmental conditions or food availability are possible triggers. Within those two, environmental conditions could impact food availability. If you read the paper I posted it references 2 studies where VHSV susceptibility in Pacific Herring was highly influenced by diet and temperature. There is more to it than implying that Atlantic Salmon have VHSV and must be spreading it all over the place. This is what the author are trying to convey. What also needs to be mentioned is what is currently done to reduce the potential risk of transmission on fish farms in BC which includes routine testing for VHSV on dead found in pens. Large scale marine die-offs involving VHSV-1Va are not commonly found where this virus exists. This and more is discussed in the report I posted.
As for Morton not receiving a timely response I am not sure why; however, I realize that there are not a lot of staff involved in testing fish health samples - and those dedicated staff members are busy with other samples from enhancement facilities and PIPs (Public Involvement Programs) on a very tight budget. To test samples is not cheap as Morton points out. Well, it is not cheap either for people in government. Nonetheless, it would seem reasonable to me to provide Ms Morton some response in a timely fashion instead of letting this linger because what inevitably happens are multiple blog responses from farm critics accusing the department of hiding information. In actual fact it is more than likely a combination of poor communication by agencies and lack of resources to investigate every sample submitted. Biologists like Morton also have responsibilities also in this. Being described as a "BC Marine Biologist" in the article, Ms Morton should describe what is known about VHSV-1Va (sort of like I did) in order to provide the public with as much information as possible - not just have the public fixated on the story about "Bleeding Herring".
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First, maybe read what was actually posted before, TB.
"VHS it could very well be"
"farmed Atlantic salmon appear to have a low virulence to VHSV-IVa with no evidence of farm to farm spread; however, it does not mean we should not understand this virus more and it's possible implications to wild fish"
"it is not entirely clear what drives these outbreaks"
You should go into politics Stevey....
On one hand you don't have any conclusive evidence that feedlots are not killing wild salmon.
Then you dance around that issue by typing a lot of words, hoping that whoever reads it will dismiss the evidence that feedlots are killing wild salmon....
However, by changing my view of politicians, I find them amusing as well....
;D
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However, by changing my view of politicians, I find them amusing as well....
Politicians are almost always amusing provided you are not the one they are currently stabbing in the back.
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More for Stevie to rebuke and dance with. ;D
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/disease-killing-pacific-herring-threatens-salmon-scientist-warns/article13722113/
Fron Alex
Dear Minister of BC Agriculture:
"I am writing to file an official complaint regarding what I see as misleading comment by your employee, Dr. Gary Marty, to the public in the Globe and Mail today.
In this article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/disease-killing-pacific-herring-threatens-salmon-scientist-warns/article13722113/
Dr. Marty is quoted suggesting that a limited VHS outbreak could be "actually good…" for herring populations in BC.
While Dr. Marty appears to be quoting scientific research, he does not know if this is a "limited outbreak" and he omits the recent and relevant results in a paper co-published by DFO (attached) that reports that VHS can infect Atlantic salmon and "spillback" into wild populations causing 100% mortality in herring in 3/4 trials.
Given that these herring were observed in an area surrounded by Atlantic salmon farms to the south, east and north, it is my opinion that Dr. Marty should have added comment regarding this high relevant and alarming finding by DFO. The CFIA reports there are salmon farms infected with VHS http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/2013/eng/1360390270607/1360390361782
"3.3. Experiment 3: transmission of VHSV from Atlantic salmon to herring
Transmission of VHSV from Atlantic salmon to sympatric Pacific herring was indicated by 100% mortality and recovery of VHSV with titers exceeding 1 106 from herring sentinels in 3 out of 4 immersion replicates."
This paper openly notes that: "herring biomass in salmon netpens can measure in the tons in some salmon farms (unpublished observation, K. Garver)"
I am requesting that DFO and/or the province of BC follow up and correct Dr. Marty's quote in the Globe and Mail. The governments of BC have the responsibility to inform the public accurately about a resource as valuable as herring. It is unethical in my view to suggest that herring bleeding throughout their bodies could be "actually good." I would also like to know how the DFO and the Province of BC, who are responsible for the siting of each salmon farm, have responded to VHS in salmon farms and the recent DFO finding that this can potentially cause 100% mortality in BC herring."
Thank you.
Alexandra Morton
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"One thing that needs to be taken away from this work (that Morton will never tell you) is that it is not entirely clear what drives these outbreaks. This goes for many viruses."
I guess stacking them in a net pen and shovelling antibiotics, lice killer and for the love of Frankenstien who knows what else isn't going to cause a problem. Chowabunga.
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You should go into politics Stevey....
On one hand you don't have any conclusive evidence that feedlots are not killing wild salmon.
Then you dance around that issue by typing a lot of words, hoping that whoever reads it will dismiss the evidence that feedlots are killing wild salmon....
However, by changing my view of politicians, I find them amusing as well....
;D
You are sort of like Chicken Little without the feathers. Obviously you didn't read any of the literature posted here.
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151540215142016&l=65b3a8d6a1
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151540215142016&l=65b3a8d6a1
Good to see they are paying attention. ;D ;D
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More for Stevie to rebuke and dance with. ;D
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/disease-killing-pacific-herring-threatens-salmon-scientist-warns/article13722113/
Fron Alex
Dear Minister of BC Agriculture:
"I am writing to file an official complaint regarding what I see as misleading comment by your employee, Dr. Gary Marty, to the public in the Globe and Mail today.
In this article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/disease-killing-pacific-herring-threatens-salmon-scientist-warns/article13722113/
Dr. Marty is quoted suggesting that a limited VHS outbreak could be "actually good…" for herring populations in BC.
While Dr. Marty appears to be quoting scientific research, he does not know if this is a "limited outbreak" and he omits the recent and relevant results in a paper co-published by DFO (attached) that reports that VHS can infect Atlantic salmon and "spillback" into wild populations causing 100% mortality in herring in 3/4 trials.
Well, Morton does not know if this is a full-blown outbreak but this isn't stopping her from reaching for the headlines. Morton is the last person who should accuse others of omitting information. Salmonconfidential is full of that. Marty is a fish pathologist - Morton is not.
Given that these herring were observed in an area surrounded by Atlantic salmon farms to the south, east and north, it is my opinion that Dr. Marty should have added comment regarding this high relevant and alarming finding by DFO. The CFIA reports there are salmon farms infected with VHS http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/2013/eng/1360390270607/1360390361782
If Morton would have read the literature (from people like Dr. Garver and Dr. Kent) before writing this letter she would have found out that VHS is already known and reported. VHS is endemic to our waters. It is not some mysterious European virus. Marty already admitted in the Globe and Mail article that VHS (and VEN) have been on the West Coast for a long time. It already occurs to some degree on farms, here but it is not found to be very virulent. It would have also been nice for Morton to note how Atlantic salmon obtain the virus in the article. If she would have read some more of Dr. Garver's literature she would have found that out.
"3.3. Experiment 3: transmission of VHSV from Atlantic salmon to herring
Transmission of VHSV from Atlantic salmon to sympatric Pacific herring was indicated by 100% mortality and recovery of VHSV with titers exceeding 1 106 from herring sentinels in 3 out of 4 immersion replicates."
This paper openly notes that: "herring biomass in salmon netpens can measure in the tons in some salmon farms (unpublished observation, K. Garver)"
Morton clearly cherry picks what she wants to show for maximum effect. If she was really interested in informing the public then she should not leave out the other literature. It is not a coincidence that Morton chose not to include (or discuss) the other paper Dr. Garver was involved with (that same year) or the literature from Dr. Marty who has worked with herring. I am not denying that result from this study; however, it is too soon to say there is a problem and having the herring that Morton captured does not indicate a major outbreak. One hundred fish with these symptoms does not necessarily indicate a big outbreak. In addition, I also do not see much for evidence of VHS out of control on BC fish farms presented by Morton. I also do not see any mention by her of the abundance of herring in Georgia Strait this year.
I am all for investigating, but not for fear mongering. Yet, when you read the G&M article it makes it seem like all hell has broken loose. Morton basically ignores what we already know about VHS (explained by Garver; sort of like deja vu because Morton ignores what Dr. Miller says also), its presence in herring (even at low levels), how it is monitored on farms, and what farms do to reduce its occurrence. There are also other factors which influence how this virus impacts fish like herring. Marty explained this in the article, but Morton didn't. Who is really being misleading?
I am requesting that DFO and/or the province of BC follow up and correct Dr. Marty's quote in the Globe and Mail. The governments of BC have the responsibility to inform the public accurately about a resource as valuable as herring. It is unethical in my view to suggest that herring bleeding throughout their bodies could be "actually good." I would also like to know how the DFO and the Province of BC, who are responsible for the siting of each salmon farm, have responded to VHS in salmon farms and the recent DFO finding that this can potentially cause 100% mortality in BC herring."
If Morton is going to accuse Dr. Marty of being unethical in this respect she should at least try to interpret what he said correctly. Marty did not say that "herring bleeding throughout their bodies could be actually good". Dr. Marty said limited outbreaks of the two diseases are not necessarily a bad thing. In this respect he has a valid point. Don't believe me? Well read up on it. It is valid because contrary to what Morton will have you believe, diseases in the aquatic ecosystem are not abnormal. There are already many endemic pathogens off our coast (read Cohen Technical Report #1). Some individuals may die from a disease, but others may become more immune. Outbreaks do not necessarily have to have fish farms as the root cause. The severity of a disease is can be dependent on the interaction of numerous variables which include the host, the pathogen and the environment. Environmental conditions may be more of a factor about whether or not a outbreak develops and how severe it is rather than the virus itself. Was this ever mentioned by Morton in the article? You are always going to have fish in any population die of a disease with or without fish farms. Marty doesn't need to be corrected on anything he said. Morton is the one that needs to go back and read the literature and be objective in her assessment of this virus, especially in the media. What I do agree with Morton on is the slow response by the feds - not so much the apparent lack of testing of her samples, but just getting back to her to explain any delay in getting back to her.
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Obviously you didn't read any of the literature posted here.
If you're referring to the feedlot propaganda you and other feedlot boys post.... you are correct.
Like DFO your mission appears to be a PR campaign to convince the public that the feedlots are not killing wild salmon. They should be doing the right thing and getting the feedlots out of the ocean, then doing the research and once they've conclusively proven that feedlots are not going to kill the wild salmon we can then think about putting them back....
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If you're referring to the feedlot propaganda you and other feedlot boys post.... you are correct.
Like DFO your mission appears to be a PR campaign to convince the public that the feedlots are not killing wild salmon. They should be doing the right thing and getting the feedlots out of the ocean, then doing the research and once they've conclusively proven that feedlots are not going to kill the wild salmon we can then think about putting them back....
Actually I am talking about the literature from people like Dr. Garver from DFO. The same person Morton is quoting. The only difference is that she omits one article and cherry picks from the other. Sort of sounds like you, AF.
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Well, Morton does not know if this is a full-blown outbreak but this isn't stopping her from reaching for the headlines. Morton is the last person who should accuse others of omitting information. Salmonconfidential is full of that. Marty is a fish pathologist - Morton is not.
If Morton would have read the literature (from people like Dr. Garver and Dr. Kent) before writing this letter she would have found out that VHS is already known and reported. VHS is endemic to our waters. It is not some mysterious European virus. Marty already admitted in the Globe and Mail article that VHS (and VEN) have been on the West Coast for a long time. It already occurs to some degree on farms, here but it is not found to be very virulent. It would have also been nice for Morton to note how Atlantic salmon obtain the virus in the article. If she would have read some more of Dr. Garver's literature she would have found that out.
Morton clearly cherry picks what she wants to show for maximum effect. If she was really interested in informing the public then she should not leave out the other literature. It is not a coincidence that Morton chose not to include (or discuss) the other paper Dr. Garver was involved with (that same year) or the literature from Dr. Marty who has worked with herring. I am not denying that result from this study; however, it is too soon to say there is a problem and having the herring that Morton captured does not indicate a major outbreak. One hundred fish with these symptoms does not necessarily indicate a big outbreak. In addition, I also do not see much for evidence of VHS out of control on BC fish farms presented by Morton. I also do not see any mention by her of the abundance of herring in Georgia Strait this year.
I am all for investigating, but not for fear mongering. Yet, when you read the G&M article it makes it seem like all hell has broken loose. Morton basically ignores what we already know about VHS (explained by Garver; sort of like deja vu because Morton ignores what Dr. Miller says also), its presence in herring (even at low levels), how it is monitored on farms, and what farms do to reduce its occurrence. There are also other factors which influence how this virus impacts fish like herring. Marty explained this in the article, but Morton didn't. Who is really being misleading?
If Morton is going to accuse Dr. Marty of being unethical in this respect she should at least try to interpret what he said correctly. Marty did not say that "herring bleeding throughout their bodies could be actually good". Dr. Marty said limited outbreaks of the two diseases are not necessarily a bad thing. In this respect he has a valid point. Don't believe me? Well read up on it. It is valid because contrary to what Morton will have you believe, diseases in the aquatic ecosystem are not abnormal. There are already many endemic pathogens off our coast (read Cohen Technical Report #1). Some individuals may die from a disease, but others may become more immune. Outbreaks do not necessarily have to have fish farms as the root cause. The severity of a disease is can be dependent on the interaction of numerous variables which include the host, the pathogen and the environment. Environmental conditions may be more of a factor about whether or not a outbreak develops and how severe it is rather than the virus itself. Was this ever mentioned by Morton in the article? You are always going to have fish in any population die of a disease with or without fish farms. Marty doesn't need to be corrected on anything he said. Morton is the one that needs to go back and read the literature and be objective in her assessment of this virus, especially in the media. What I do agree with Morton on is the slow response by the feds - not so much the apparent lack of testing of her samples, but just getting back to her to explain any delay in getting back to her.
What are your thoughts and comments on all the problems FF have caused in all the other countries world wide for many years or do you think all this is false propaganda from those that oppose FF?
How will it be any diferent here?
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Stevestep, you're on a roll tonight!!!!
Chris, nice article you posted back a ways. Good to see the educated and balanced discussion from some individuals. Without a doubt, fish farming has caused issues in several other countries. So has overfishing, habitat degradation, hatcheries, climate change, industrial pollution etc. Let's just keep looking at each one on the Pacific Coast and assess the risks as they are present in the north Pacific, and try not to jump to conclusions based on potentially spurious correlations from elsewhere.
Correlation does not always equal causation.
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You should go into politics Stevey....
On one hand you don't have any conclusive evidence that feedlots are not killing wild salmon.
Then you dance around that issue by typing a lot of words, hoping that whoever reads it will dismiss the evidence that feedlots are killing wild salmon....
;D
af quote from another thread:
"If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof..... Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?"
Another contradiction of himself? Classic Carl!
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af quote from another thread:
"If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof..... Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?"
Another contradiction of himself? Classic Carl!
Appears that you are the only one seeing a contradiction....
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af quote from another thread:
"If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof..... Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?"
Another contradiction of himself? Classic Carl!
lol
Good one.
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Stevestep, you're on a roll tonight!!!!
Chris, nice article you posted back a ways. Good to see the educated and balanced discussion from some individuals. Without a doubt, fish farming has caused issues in several other countries. So has overfishing, habitat degradation, hatcheries, climate change, industrial pollution etc. Let's just keep looking at each one on the Pacific Coast and assess the risks as they are present in the north Pacific, and try not to jump to conclusions based on potentially spurious correlations from elsewhere.
Correlation does not always equal causation.
Yes there are some things that can be contolled and improved if the governments will put the funds towards them but saying that I am so so concerned as are many that oppose FF in other countries that we will and are having the same problems here. Many mistakes have been made in the past and we should learn from them.
Also Alex is just one on many concerned people in many countries that have and are raising the red flag on this issue, she is not the only one by any means, there are hundreds that do the same work she is bringing to the fore front (sp) world wide. Many condemn Alex and others but it is important that we have them to try and seek answers that can be suppressed by those in power or invested interests as in many cases it is money that comes first before the well being of the environment and those that live there. They, the many species can not speak their concerns so we must do that for them.
Simple and not flowery words I know but I donot try to make statements with fancy scientific words to confuse the subject matter, sorry about that as I did not get a university degree, 50 plus years ago.
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"Correlation does not always equal causation."
ummm are you serious. So you ignore all the problems that fish farms have caused worldwide because of that cow cud of a comment?
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"Correlation does not always equal causation."
ummm are you serious. So you ignore all the problems that fish farms have caused worldwide because of that cow cud of a comment?
Read my last post. You'll see I say "Without a doubt, fish farming has caused issues in several other countries".
But yes, I am serious. Correlation does not always equal causation. If you disagree with that statement, I'm not really sure how to continue an educated discussion here.
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"Correlation does not always equal causation."
ummm are you serious. So you ignore all the problems that fish farms have caused worldwide because of that cow cud of a comment?
It is not a question about ignoring. Correlation can be useful, but it can also be limited in what it can tell you. Fish farm activists ignore these cons and basically abuse it. Just because there is a correlation between two variables does not necessarily mean those one of those variables influences the other. Correlation can point researchers in the right direction to prove cause and effect; however, in order for that to be defensible the correlation need to be further explored to see if their is a causal relationship. In the case of models that use correlation they are dependent on certain assumption being valid as well as the information being put into them. If assumptions get violated then all bets are off. A perfect example of a model gone bad is Krkosek et al 2007 where they predicting the local extinction of Pink Salmon in the Broughton area. How are Pinks doing now there or other areas along our coast? Reading the headlines lately, TB? What this can indicate is there is a little more to host, pathogen and environmental interactions that is not being covered by correlation. However, if you still do not agree feel free to look into more on your own.
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"Fish farm activists ignore these cons and basically abuse it."
Thought about that too. Then :
"If assumptions get violated then all bets are off."
I realized needed a few more beer to understand wtf your getting at
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I realized needed a few more beer to understand wtf your getting at
How did that work for you troutbreath?
I'm also looking for a solution to his gaffle blab... ::) ::) ::)
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I don't think anyone in england got sick from mad cow disease. I don't think anyone in china got sick fom h1n1. I'm almost 100% sure no one got sick from the swine flu either.
viruses don't mutate. it's impossible for a virus to go from one species to another. it's never happened and will never happen.
are the farms hiring?
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http://www.courierislander.com/news/local/dfo-investigating-reports-of-bleeding-herring-1.590399#