Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: RainbowMan on June 19, 2013, 07:58:47 AM
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I was just looking at the test numbers from the last couple of weeks and they are significantly lower than the average norm:
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/fraser/docs/commercial/albionCHdailytotal-eng.htm
Does it mean that we should be expecting a poor return this season or is it still too early to judge? The graph (link above) shows that the peak of the season is around 1st or 2nd week of July and we are only 10 days away from that peak and the numbers are still close to zero!
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the lowest numbers since test began in 1981, so might not open till later in august.
DFO NOTICE ;The 2013 Albion chinook test fishery began operating on April 21st. A
cumulative total of five (5) chinook have been caught in the standard chinook
net; five additional chinook have been caught in the multi-panel net. This is
the lowest catch observed for this time period since the inception of the
Albion chinook test fishery in 1981. The CPUE input into the model falls below
the range of historical observations of CPUE (1995 to 2012, excluding 2007)
used to develop the Albion prediction model. Based on this CPUE, the current
predicted return of Spring 5-2 and Summer 5-2 chinook to the mouth of the
Fraser ranges from 26 thousand to 57 thousand chinook with a mid-point of 38.6
thousand.
As a result, the Department will manage fisheries based on management zone 1
(i.e. returns to the Fraser less than 45 thousand chinook) for Fraser
Spring 5-2 and Summer 5-2 chinook. Management actions for specific areas and
fisheries will be confirmed by separate fishery notices
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If I'm not mistaken, this year is the return of the poor run in 2008. Would it not make more sense if they don't open the river at all and let more spawners out of the gate before we lose them forever?? That is closing to all stakeholders including the FNs.
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First nations have already recorded over 400 Chinook caught and killed in the Fraser this year...and that is ONLY what has been reported.
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Absolutely brutal treatment of an amazing resource. These Chinook are the most sought after gamefish on the west coast.
The Americans got it right and built hatcheries and rebuilt the springer Chinook run to the point it is a multi million dollar fishery in both the ocean and river.
Meanwhile Canada does nothing and let's our commercial and commercial sport fleet hammer the US bound fish. Frankly I am shocked that the Americans put up with our lack of investment into coastwide Chinook numbers.
Gone are the days of April Chinooks before freshet, May and June fish are suffering and the only real decent fishing is on the late summer stocks and fall chinook.
Pathetic really, you wanna tax the crap out of our Sportfishing industry but give back nothing.
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Blaming the natives is not reality either, commercial fishing and habitat are the real issues.
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They don't want fish .Theyre just a nuisance to those that would like to build dams and pipelines.
I used to laugh when I heard this theory at first but I cant think of another reason why they would be so anti-fish over at DFO.
If it weren't for them Columbia fish the west coast would be lucky to be a fishing destination.
Anyone that remembers what the Alberni Inlet was like back in the day must be shaking there heads at what it is today.
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sold all our rivers off, fish will steadily decline every year they have higher priorities raping and pilaging our province to supply foreign demand for resources and electricity.
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We need more hatchery production like the Americans have. Back 20 years ago, the Stamp had 100K run of adult red spring. I even read an article on the American fishing magazine Field and Stream titled 'The Stamp of approval' reporting on the glorious run of chinooks and the wonderful job the Robertson Hatchery was doing. What are the return numbers there recently? Back in the Expo years and subsequent to that, the Capilano River was stocked abundantly to impress Expo tourists on the fabulous salmon fishing of Canada. The Cap had so many coho it wasn't funny. Fish would charge up in waves up the river all day. The coho run there now is a joke compared to the glory days. The environment hasn't changed much for these rivers, and the commercials are not allowed to catch like before. What else is the difference? The hatchery production is not like before while we are paying more license fees.
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Watching some of the hatchery chinook fishing in the states on Youtube is just crazy. Fish after fish, easily putting a camera on the water to get a bobber down because they know if they float their roe through the run that they will get one. So much different, would be a nice thing to see.
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A few years back I had a chance to talk to a White Rock retired teacher who came to my house to buy my pair of new high end wading boots which didn't fit me (as I bought from ebay). He related his steelheading fishing experience which just shocked me. He said he only fished the American rivers for steelhead because the steelhead fishing there is so much better than our own. He named quite a few of the rivers and told me that sometimes, he could be into double digit hookups any day there. I told him I did pretty ok on the Vedder, average 1 hook up every 2 trips. He just laughed and I choked. I often thought BC has much better steelhead fishing than Yankee land.
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I often thought BC has much better steelhead fishing than Yankee land.
Propaganda...
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A few years back I had a chance to talk to a White Rock retired teacher who came to my house to buy my pair of new high end wading boots which didn't fit me (as I bought from ebay). He related his steelheading fishing experience which just shocked me. He said he only fished the American rivers for steelhead because the steelhead fishing there is so much better than our own. He named quite a few of the rivers and told me that sometimes, he could be into double digit hookups any day there. I told him I did pretty ok on the Vedder, average 1 hook up every 2 trips. He just laughed and I choked. I often thought BC has much better steelhead fishing than Yankee land.
If true, then why are there so many americans fishing the Vedd during steelhead season?
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I have heard from many sources that rivers in northern Oregon produce good number of hatch steel every winter but I'm not sure if that's the case in WA. Maybe the American anglers on the Fraser and Vedder are from WA??
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These Chinook are the most sought after gamefish on the west coast.
The Americans got it right and built hatcheries and rebuilt the springer Chinook run to the point it is a multi million dollar fishery in both the ocean and river.
how much are you wiling to personally spend a year to support such a hatchery program for the Fraser?... especially considering hatcheries built to support these runs in the 70s and 80s basically did not work. Nobody is going to support more hatcheries from general taxes so a few more anglers and guides can have better days of fishing.
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ya your right its not worth it. nothing relies on the pacific salmon to survive. lol . maybe lets puts some numbers together before we say nobody will support it.
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nothing relies on the pacific salmon to survive. lol .
A lot of things rely on the pacific salmon. The salmon give off lots of nutrients when they die. The forests and rivers need that nutrients. And seals, other fish, orcas, and even some humans live off salmon.
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dude sarcasm, i didnt feel like typing all that but you hit it right on the head.
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Oops
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no problem, buts thats why its so important that something is done before its to late.
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how much are you wiling to personally spend a year to support such a hatchery program for the Fraser?... especially considering hatcheries built to support these runs in the 70s and 80s basically did not work. Nobody is going to support more hatcheries from general taxes so a few more anglers and guides can have better days of fishing.
You can be so dense, Ralph.
Spending money on something that brings a profitable return is a good thing. You make it sound like taxpayers would be throwing money down the toilet.
The money generated by 'good' salmon fishing can be immeasurable...and that is above and beyond paying back what is spent by taxpayers.
And where do you get this 'hatcheries from the 70s and 80s' don't work' thing? The Chilliwack River hatchery was built in 1980 and the upgrades since then have been minimal. Are you going to tell me that it hasn't been a success? What about the Chehalis? Also successful. I really question where you get your information from.
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You can be so dense, Ralph.
Spending money on something that brings a profitable return is a good thing. You make it sound like taxpayers would be throwing money down the toilet.
The money generated by 'good' salmon fishing can be immeasurable...and that is above and beyond paying back what is spent by taxpayers.
And where do you get this 'hatcheries from the 70s and 80s' don't work' thing? The Chilliwack River hatchery was built in 1980 and the upgrades since then have been minimal. Are you going to tell me that it hasn't been a success? What about the Chehalis? Also successful. I really question where you get your information from.
I think Ralph is talking about the fish not being intercepted by the Albion test fishery at this time. Hatcheries like Quesnel and Eagle River were certainly failures but perhaps with millions of dollars that could be rectified. Thing is that kind of money will not likely be available again. Chilliwack and Chehalis hatchery fish are later run and are doing far better than up country early run Chinooks.
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You can be so dense, Ralph.
Unfortunately Robert G has not yet mastered the skill of disagreeing with an idea vs disagreeing with a person, and attacking ideas vs attacking a person. Robert, you spoke about having alot of explaining to do to your kids following the PM derby. I expect you would have a lot of explaining to do, as well, if they observed your online personna.
Face it, it all boils down to Maria Slough sockeye! :)
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Unfortunately Robert G has not yet mastered the skill of disagreeing with an idea vs disagreeing with a person, and attacking ideas vs attacking a person. Robert, you spoke about having alot of explaining to do to your kids following the PM derby. I expect you would have a lot of explaining to do, as well, if they observed your online personna.
Face it, it all boils down to Maria Slough sockeye! :)
Sorry, but Ralphs posts have rubbed me the wrong way ever since way back when Anglingbc was the only bc fishing forum. Ralph did say that hatcheries in the 80s were failures, and I think he is way off with that comment. He also said that no one would support hatcheries out of general taxes. The truth however, is that anyone who knows anything about salmon fishing knows that good salmon fishing pays for itself... so both of his statements are incorrect and unresearched...which IMHO, I find very typical of many of his posts, not to mention his overall negativity toward salmon hatcheries is extremely biased.
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You can be so dense, Ralph
. Gotta love it! Being called dense by Robert G! I am flattered you remember me.
While you do have a point you don't consider hatcheries for early Chinook have already proven not to return the money it cost to build and operate them. If these hatcheries were closed because they didn't work - which they didn't, what makes you think. What evidence - and I mean hard evidence do you or Bent_Rod have that hatcheries in the US actually do bring more money back than it costs to operate them?
You also don't consider a lot of anglers, much of the public and almost every fisheries biologist and manager don't want to build hatcheries particularly not to make a small number of guides better off or to help meat anglers stock their freezers. Governments are more than willing to oblige these people and spend tax money elsewhere.
It's a slice Robbie... oh and there are sockeye in Maria Slough. 8)
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I don't think that the hatcheries were built for guides and meat fisherman. They were built for the commercial fleet by those in Ottawa. Now they have focused on fish farming which is far worse. Fish farms and their rape and pillage of the biomass to feed their fish taking away from the wild stocks. This problem of taking the biomass is world wide. Introduction of diseases that are detrimental to wild salmon and trout from fish farms. Reign in the commercial fleet and get rid of the fish farms out of our province and we might have a chance to rebuild our salmon stocks. Hatcheries will play a big part in this.
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I think Ralph is talking about the fish not being intercepted by the Albion test fishery at this time. Hatcheries like Quesnel and Eagle River were certainly failures but perhaps with millions of dollars that could be rectified. Thing is that kind of money will not likely be available again. Chilliwack and Chehalis hatchery fish are later run and are doing far better than up country early run Chinooks.
Dave, just out of curiosity, why did the summer Mid Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program fail to produce good returns while the fall Lower Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program has been successful?
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Dave, just out of curiosity, why did the summer Mid Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program fail to produce good returns while the fall Lower Fraser River chinook salmon hatchery program has been successful?
I don't know Rod but there are people on this site that probably do.
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The main reason the upper Fraser chinook hatcheries like Quesnel and Eagle were unsuccessful was that they were trying to produce chinook by using the rearing strategy of 100 days of rearing ( coastal strategy S1) on fish that would normally spend 1 full year in freshwater like coho ( S2). The interior American hatcheries use the yearling smolt program on their inland stocks and it works fine. That is the same strategy that is used on the yearly stocks enhanced out of Spius(S2). The Shuswap stock has the 100 days rearing (S1) life history so that strategy works well there.
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To reiterate - the issue I raised isn't can the hatcheries do something productive, it's where will finding come from? In the US, particularly the Columbia there has been quite a concerted effort to rehabilitate salmon runs to the extent possible because of habitat loss and damage from Dam construction and operation. Large Utility Corporations and Dam authorities have been willing to fund hatcheries etc because it is a far less expensive alternative to drawing down impoundments, reconstructing tailways and fishways.
In Canada we don't have any organization with deep pockets willingly to pony up the funding. There is general opposition to more hatcheries from fisheries scientists and managers and most sport fishing groups. That it was tried once and was a failure at least economically, doesn't make it look like a sound idea.
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"I was just looking at the test numbers from the last couple of weeks and they are significantly lower than the average norm:"
Not sure if anyone has seen the June test net numbers but last month has been produced the most chinook numbers then any year in the last 4 we have seen 29 in the month of June this year.... The next largest number catch was in 2011 with 25 chinook caught I'n the test nets.
I remember fishing that year and it was deadly. Anyways here is the website guys! We might b in for some good fishing :)
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fos2_Internet/Testfish/rptDTFD.cfm
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http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fos2_Internet/Testfish/rptdtfdparm.cfm?fsub_id=242.
Oops... this should work.
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Its good to be an optimist man, but take a look at the numbers from 10 years ago - 1250 Chinook during the same time in 2003! This year is not even close to how many fish their used to be. More troubling is that if you look at the long term trend since 1981, its significantly downward - not a good sign IMO
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To reiterate - the issue I raised isn't can the hatcheries do something productive, it's where will finding come from?
User pay.
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...last month has been produced the most chinook numbers then any year in the last 4 we
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fos2_Internet/Testfish/rptDTFD.cfm
29 in June 2013 Vs. 221 in June 2010. This year's numbers are still way lower than the average and as others said, the overall trend is not pointing to a healthy condition. Let's see what July has in store for the Fraser Chinook!
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if things continue this way, leave it closed.
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Whonnock's been having good #'s
http://www.psc.org/TestFish/Area29DGNsummary.PDF
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http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fos2_Internet/Testfish/rptdtfdparm.cfm?fsub_id=242.
Oops... this should work.
Thanks for the great link.
I don't think any fancy statistics is needed to see that there has been a steady decline in Chinook numbers over the past decades.
Looks like we are scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
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I guess we all know what the problem is but we barely like to talk about the potential causes or solutions. I was listening to a very interesting conversation on the CBC radio this morning about the potential causes of declining salmon numbers in BC and the role of the federal and provincial governments and learned about a few interesting findings. Interesting video to watch and good content to read on this blog:
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/