Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: kingpin on January 12, 2011, 06:30:34 PM
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just a heads up to novice steelheaders out there....when approaching a run and theres 2 guys fishing the middle...dont have your buddy park above them and then you cut in below. its a beak maneuver, let them fish the run through and work above them...if you really want to fish the tailout and there not moving fast enough ask first. its not the first time this has happened and wont be the last but many of these guys recieve a harsh tongue lashing for doing it yet continue to do it
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just a heads up to novice steelheaders out there....when approaching a run and theres 2 guys fishing the middle...dont have your buddy park above them and then you cut in below. its a beak maneuver, let them fish the run through and work above them...if you really want to fish the tailout and there not moving fast enough ask first. its not the first time this has happened and wont be the last but many of these guys recieve a harsh tongue lashing for doing it yet continue to do it
Often the 2 guys in the middle have parked themselves there and are not moving.
What does etiquette say about how fast you should be moving down the run?
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What does etiquette say about how fast you should be moving down the run?
As the OP already stated ASK BEFORE moving below the guy, a good angler makes observations before fishing ::) I get so POed when I get low holed I could knock the guy out. However I would then be spending time in court rather than on the river.
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Exactly.
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how much of a run is reserved? I "cut in" a good 100/150 feet of length on two guys standing up top holding hands over a smoke. I'm not about to go up there and join you but I gave you more than enough space to "work the run" sure enough as soon as my float hits the water, one of the guys is doing to fast paced walk "working the run" towards me. The river isn't reserved seating, it's general admission. Aggressive behavior will only provoke me...
Although, like I said, if you are fishing near other people, I think coming in some distance below them is fine, but if there isn't a lot of room in the area you are in or there's only that one "good area of water" that doesn't have the luxury of seemingly tons of space then i suppose you have to ask. Generally though I find my self walking away from people as much as I can as I prefer to not have to deal with either a) having someone cut in on me or b) having one of the apparent owners of the river recite the riot act on me should i offend them in some way (although it has never happened)
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NiceFish hopping in below anyone is low holing and is very poor sportsmanship. The guys at the top could have just missed or briefly hooked a fish and are now trying to get it again. Good sportsmanship is to ask before cutting in below anyone. It's almost never practiced during salmon season however steelhead season is totally different. If the guys are fence posting they will usually look at you puzzled after you have asked them to cut in and then 99% of the time say go ahead still looking puzzled lol. It's common curtesy much like when leaving a store and holding the door briefly when someone is right behind you. It's easy as hell to do, only takes a brief second, and makes life way more enjoyable for everyone involved.
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Well then I guess you should take the time to ask every single angler who is fishing above you on the river since, you're low holing a lot of anglers.... I'm sorry but 100 plus feet of room in my opinion isn't low holing anyone. The only way I could see it being so is if you are the only two people on the river in sight, but where "low holing" becomes an issue in the vedder, you're not talking about 100 feet you're talking about 20 feet or less really.
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On the Vedder...really? I grew up in Sleese Park in the 70's. I have been fishing since. The Vedder...mmm not so much any more. I get the tourist attraction and the economics. I understand that you are going to have a flock of rookies out there. I choose to fish elsewhere. BUT, if I did fish the system I would not assume that everyone is in the know. Maybe everyone should chill the *(&$0 out and not rage when someone drops in on them. It is never going to stop and that is the burden you take on when fishing a system so close to the city. Sure, what are the semantic boundaries, guidelines, rules yadda yadda yadda. Bottom line, someone is always going to offend at some point. Go fish somewhere else, upper lower, hike or another river. They should sell PEZ dispensers with ATAVAN at Fred's.
insert John Denver song here:
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100 plus can be low holing if the good water in between anglers is easily workable in a short period and a guy runs into the next sweet spot down or something when they are only 10- 20 casts away on the move.
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Low holing is low holing. Regardless of how many feet of water is infront of you, if a decent angler who is looking to cover water, steps into a pool or run with nothing on his mind but fishing the piece of water down till he/she reaches that nice productive seam or tailout or whatever it may be, the last thing he/she wants is some A Hole stepping in front of them as brazen as hell and fishing the nice water straight of the bat. Fishing etiquette as i know it is a universal respectful way of fishing known world wide and the no.1 golden rule would be start at the top and fish down. Regardless of the situation its only good manners to speak to people whom are on a stretch of water before you, chances are if their not moving downstream then theyl gladly let you step in.
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amen.
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If there are peole already fishing the run and not moving just ask if its okay to fish thru. I have never had anyone say no before. A good tip is to sit and wait for a few minutes until they are done fishing it thru. Watch where they are casting and pay attention to any areas they missed. I can't count the number of times I have walked in and nailed a fish right behind multiple fishermen that didn't touch a thing. I think after the fish get so much gear tossed at them in main holding areas they take off or spook out and hide. Or if there are a few hooked rest the spot for 30 mins and fish it again. Fish usually settle back into the best holding areas. HAHA! Talk about pissing somebody off catching a fish after they just fished it. There is lots of river, just depends on how much you are willing to walk.
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:D :D ;D....good luck, there's always a bigger fish looking to eat the smaller one!
I was planing to just toss a few rocks in the water or something juvenile like that, in fact it's my sole mission now to low hole anyone when possible.
I am now fishing from the bottom of a run working my way up, if anyone high holes me it's gonna be lights out.
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I am now fishing from the bottom of a run working my way up, if anyone high holes me it's gonna be lights out.
I kinda like fishing the bottom of a run first as well......
When someone low holes me (and they will) ......it doesn't bother me. :D
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You guys think the Vedder is bad?
How about fishing the Stamp when you only have so much shore fishing accessible to you (and you just walked 50 mins to get to it over hills with no trails) and a freaking guide boat (who can fish anywhere) parks 20 feet below you, when they have watched you fish down for the last 20 mins.
These guys are apparently "professional" yet they still do it too.
Everyone just needs to take a chill pill, and like one guy already stated, watch the water they don't fish.
Already pulled a few fish out behind guide boats this year and their clients didn't look too happy ;D
And Nice Fish, you have to be kidding me.
Low holing is low holing. I'm pissed if someone goes into the next run below me at times when I'm at the tailout of the run up and its obvious I'm working downriver.
100 feet is no where near far enough, try 2 runs downriver or even more. Ask if you can go below if you think they are fence posting.
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Pretty much where you go on the Vedder someone will be downstream from where you are. What is considered a reasonable distance to start ? Or does one go the very top (Limit Hole), take a number and when your number is called you start working downstream. ;D
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You guys think the Vedder is bad?
How about fishing the Stamp when you only have so much shore fishing accessible to you (and you just walked 50 mins to get to it over hills with no trails) and a freaking guide boat (who can fish anywhere) parks 20 feet below you, when they have watched you fish down for the last 20 mins.
These guys are apparently "professional" yet they still do it too.
Everyone just needs to take a chill pill, and like one guy already stated, watch the water they don't fish.
Already pulled a few fish out behind guide boats this year and their clients didn't look too happy ;D
And Nice Fish, you have to be kidding me.
Low holing is low holing. I'm pissed if someone goes into the next run below me at times when I'm at the tailout of the run up and its obvious I'm working downriver.
100 feet is no where near far enough, try 2 runs downriver or even more. Ask if you can go below if you think they are fence posting.
The guide boats pull alot more fish then a shore angler fishing down and the clients were probally astonished that they missed one.
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The guide boats pull alot more fish then a shore angler fishing down and the clients were probally astonished that they missed one.
Last few days have been slow, with only 2-3 fish boated all day from the guides I talked to (that they had heard of, including themselves).
So I would say they weren't too happy since they may have not been the lucky boat that day lol.
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NiceFish I figured that you would understand that I was referring to a piece of water such as a run or pool, however I guess we weren't both on the same page so to speak. Seeing as how most steelhead get caught in the tailout, and that when you're supposed to start at the head so everyone has an equal chance in any given piece of water.
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As the OP already stated ASK BEFORE moving below the guy, a good angler makes observations before fishing ::) I get so POed when I get low holed I could knock the guy out. However I would then be spending time in court rather than on the river.
What if that guy turns out to be a mixed martial artist and you get knocked out and left on the cold stones. Violence has no place on the river keep it in the bars and rings :P
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What if that guy turns out to be a mixed martial artist and you get knocked out and left on the cold stones. Violence has no place on the river keep it in the bars and rings :P
Did I not say I would then end up spending more time in court than fishing? Yes I did, sadly it also means there are too many losers who sprint for the tailings and low hole people as well now a days! I'm not some young adult that needs lecturing here about who, what, where, or when to pick a battle either, trust me I can hold my own if needed.
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You guys think the Vedder is bad?
How about fishing the Stamp when you only have so much shore fishing accessible to you (and you just walked 50 mins to get to it over hills with no trails) and a freaking guide boat (who can fish anywhere) parks 20 feet below you, when they have watched you fish down for the last 20 mins.
These guys are apparently "professional" yet they still do it too.
Everyone just needs to take a chill pill, and like one guy already stated, watch the water they don't fish.
Already pulled a few fish out behind guide boats this year and their clients didn't look too happy ;D
And Nice Fish, you have to be kidding me.
Low holing is low holing. I'm pissed if someone goes into the next run below me at times when I'm at the tailout of the run up and its obvious I'm working downriver.
100 feet is no where near far enough, try 2 runs downriver or even more. Ask if you can go below if you think they are fence posting.
If you think I 'm gonna go two runs down river from you so I can fish, your nuts !!!! I definitely won't low hole you but two runs ??? Give me a break dude. If it was this way, we'd need to have an angler number restriction on the bloody river. Remember where we are pal. It's not like the old days when you could go out and see only a few guys most days. There's swarms of people out there now. I think 100 feet is definitely not enough room either, but not 2 entire runs or even more ? I guess it depends on how long the runs are though, but be realistic, it's the most populated river {Vedder} around here. When I do go, I usually just head somewhere else right away and let the guy fish if their already in the spot I wanted to fish.
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unfortunately the Vedder is too heavily used to prevent over crowding...the compromise is to always approach a run topside and assess the situation from that position...you can always tell if someone is working the system or just fence posting...but on the flip side, people walk the river to find where fish are holding and when they come across them their tendency is to stay put.
i remember a few years ago these two guys where coming down river at a blazing pace when they caught up to me...they asked if they could pass, so naturally i was happy to oblige... shortly afterwards one of them missed a hit no more that 30 ft from where i was fishing and all of a sudden they lost all interest in working their way down...(let me remind you, i was also working the system...just not as fast as they were, initially).
the moral of the story, i let them in because i thought they wanted to work their way down river...not so, they were looking for the fish and when they found them, etiquette became a subject of interpretation.
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whats wrong with rotating through the run... first person at the run fishes down.. next person follows and so on. low holing is an issue when it comes to steelheading but fence posting is just as bad. cast, step, cast, cast , step... you will do better the more water you cover when steelheading anyways.
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whats wrong with rotating through the run... first person at the run fishes down.. next person follows and so on. low holing is an issue when it comes to steelheading but fence posting is just as bad. cast, step, cast, cast , step... you will do better the more water you cover when steelheading anyways.
because the Vedder River is 40 kms long and is easily accessible all away around...you either fish the meat holes and get aggravated or practice true steelheading, bushwacking away from the crowds.
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Did I not say I would then end up spending more time in court than fishing? Yes I did, sadly it also means there are too many losers who sprint for the tailings and low hole people as well now a days! I'm not some young adult that needs lecturing here about who, what, where, or when to pick a battle either, trust me I can hold my own if needed.
Good for you we need more men like you in this world!
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Long before I learned about the etiquette of not cutting in below somebody, I decided it was logical to fish up a run rather than down. So I always politely cut in below people rather than above. It was much later that I learned that fly fishers, particularly spey fishers, work down a run and don't like others cutting in below. The point is that many newbies just don't know about the conventional etiquette or even that there is an etiquette.
On urban streams like the Vedder, hell fish where there is room.
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On urban streams like the Vedder, hell fish where there is room.
Most logical bit of advice given so far! :o If the purists here don't like this then they should find another river to fish on.
Trying to educate everyone on a river like the Vedder is impossible and as shown in some of the comments here it could lead to altercations....
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If you think I 'm gonna go two runs down river from you so I can fish, your nuts !!!! I definitely won't low hole you but two runs ??? Give me a break dude. If it was this way, we'd need to have an angler number restriction on the bloody river. Remember where we are pal.
First of all, remember where you are :P I'm on the island, very much enjoying it and not having to deal with what goes on at the Vedder.
I ALWAYS give 2 runs or more, unless I ask to go below.
I myself think that is a fair distance. I guess other people do not think so, but that is fine by me. I only get pissed when people walk into the same run as me 20 feet below me. If you go down to the next run though, don't freak out when I go around you to the run below you like I have had other people do in the past. You just did it to me and you don't think I'm gonna do it back to you? Give me a break... When you're out on the river you should expect to get back what you do to others.
Most of the time when I'm around people in a run I want to fish, I watch them. Watch where they miss and what they are using. ALL of my fish have been behind people this year, and I'm not afraid to fish behind someone. But still, I HATE when someone walks into the tailout of the run I'm working towards and pulls out a fish first cast. I got there first, maybe you should have shown up an hour ago if you wanted THAT spot so bad. People like this generally get an ear full, not normally from me, but from my buddy that is with me ;D
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since this is on the topic of etiquette what do you guys think about the people that set the hook at the end of each drift?
Maybe we can touch on flossing as well....... ;D ;D ;D
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Maybe we can touch on flossing as well....... ;D ;D ;D
Tomorrow will be a good day to try it out on the Vedder. ;D ;D ;D
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Tomorrow will be a good day to try it out on the Vedder. ;D ;D ;D
We can pretend it's sockeye season on the Fraser.... ;D ;D
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On urban streams like the Vedder, hell fish where there is room.
Agreed. This is the Vedder the most heavily fished river in B.C for Steelhead,not theThompson.
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First of all, remember where you are :P I'm on the island, very much enjoying it and not having to deal with what goes on at the Vedder.
The stamp is just as crowded as the Vedder.
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The stamp is just as crowded as the Vedder.
No where close...
Maybe at popular spots, but if you walk a little (which people don't seem to understand) I was alone ALL day.
I saw MAYBE 20 people on a Sunday on the banks, all fence posting in the meat holes. I walked away and found beauty water all to myself.
If you went to Lickman (probably equivalent to the Falls or Slide pool) you would have 50 guys in sight easy. I saw 15 between those 2 spots on a weekend.
And who says I fish the Stamp every time :P
My little coho flow might be better for things other than coho maybe ;D
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No where close...
Maybe at popular spots, but if you walk a little (which people don't seem to understand) I was alone ALL day.
I saw MAYBE 20 people on a Sunday on the banks, all fence posting in the meat holes. I walked away and found beauty water all to myself.
If you went to Lickman (probably equivalent to the Falls or Slide pool) you would have 50 guys in sight easy. I saw 15 between those 2 spots on a weekend.
And who says I fish the Stamp every time :P
My little coho flow might be better for things other than coho maybe ;D
Okay ED if you walk away from the meat holes then yes like the Vedd u can find nice water to yourself.My buddy who lives on the island fishes your coho flow and the pics he has sent me look very similar to yours,nice hoes on the fly and yes that little river does get a small run of steel. ;DMaybe u will run into him out there sometime his name is Dave.
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Okay ED if you walk away from the meat holes then yes like the Vedd u can find nice water to yourself.My buddy who lives on the island fishes your coho flow and the pics he has sent me look very similar to yours,nice hoes on the fly and yes that little river does get a small run of steel. ;DMaybe u will run into him out there sometime his name is Dave.
I know, hooked one by accident last year fishing cutties ;D
Probably have already met him....
And I dunno,
When I was back home I was having trouble finding places to myself on the Vedder with even 20-30 mins of walking. Crazy busy out there.
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I know, hooked one by accident last year fishing cutties ;D
Probably have already met him....
And I dunno,
When I was back home I was having trouble finding places to myself on the Vedder with even 20-30 mins of walking. Crazy busy out there.
Depends on when you go...I dont start till the New Year and this past week has seen few anglers in the areas i like to fish.Fewer anglers after the holidays are over and the hiking and bush whacking involved and the fact it was cold kept the #s down which made it very enjoyable.
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fence posting is just as bad. cast, step, cast, cast , step... you will do better the more water you cover when steelheading anyways.
Yes, but a couple things to remember.
There are a number of experienced anglers out there who have fished for steelhead since before many of you were born.
They have probably logged more fish than most of you will ever see.
They have walked more river in there waders than you have in your waders and sneakers combined and they do know etiquette.
And the passion for steelheading is as strong today as it was 40+ years ago.
Unfortunately time takes its toll on the body and they are no longer as quick or sure footed as they once were.
So, don't jump to conclusions that some old guys are fenceposting just 'cuz they're not keeping your pace.
Most all these guys will let you or encourage you to pass when you ask.
REMEMBER: ettiquette works both ways.
They may even give you a tip or two or even tell you what you're doing wrong (it's not that hard to figure out who knows what they're doing and who doesn't)
They know about being young, strong, brazen, cocky and arrogant; but have since mellowed like good scotch.
Poor etiquette has been around as long as good ettiquette (That's how we tell the difference)
Not everyone who APPEARS to be fenceposting is doing it on purpose.
And a lot of the new guys are doing just as they have been told: "fish everthing" therefore it takes them longer to fish a piece of water.
On the Vedder you must also be patient. Not everyone has a curcit they work.
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But intentional lowholing?
That's like budding in line at the movies or in the checkout aisle at the supermarket.
So, if someone is slow; ask to go below and if you're slow working the run let 'em pass or pick up the pace.
"Cuz, quite often when someone is pounding a section of the run they're spooking the fish anyways.
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Most logical bit of advice given so far! :o If the purists here don't like this then they should find another river to fish on.
Trying to educate everyone on a river like the Vedder is impossible and as shown in some of the comments here it could lead to altercations....
Repetition is the best way to train your mind. Doing it one way on the vedder then another way on the cap is STUPID. If everyone rotated through spots there would be need for this thread at all, it's that simple. Like on the highway left lane is for passing, right hand lane is for traffic. There would be a steady flow of traffic with no congestion if people did it that way. In the end it all boils down to common sense, either you have it, or you don't.
If their is an "old timer" in a spot which I have decided to fish I always give them more time than regular people for the fact that physically they're slower and that they e put in their years of work and now it's time for them to enjoy their hard earned time of freedom from work.
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Repetition is the best way to train your mind. Doing it one way on the vedder then another way on the cap is STUPID. If everyone rotated through spots there would be need for this thread at all, it's that simple. Like on the highway left lane is for passing, right hand lane is for traffic. There would be a steady flow of traffic with no congestion if people did it that way. In the end it all boils down to common sense, either you have it, or you don't.
If their is an "old timer" in a spot which I have decided to fish I always give them more time than regular people for the fact that physically they're slower and that they e put in their years of work and now it's time for them to enjoy their hard earned time of freedom from work.
We all know how well that bit of common sense is working.... ???
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We all know how well that bit of common sense is working.... ???
Common sense isn't all to common anymore
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funny how everyone seems to say that saying...
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Easiest way is to just go to some where like tamaho or borden creek or thurston meadows and just fish and walk and when u find fish keep fishing it, then when someone comes along u keep moving and just ask people if its cool u fish near em, most will say okay :) and if they dont just go up a bit where u can still see them from, cus chances are there getting fish ;D just my 2cents
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So here I am sitting my butt in front of this damn machine scrolling through all the chit chat on this particular topic and my mind wanders and I daydream about finding that phone booth that Doctor Who character has so as I could use it to go back sixty or seventy years and spend a liesurely afternoon fishing the Wack. Snap, Here i am 2011 reading all the garp about this and that and it dawns on me what the problem is. Now wether it's fence posting or walking in below someone, it's to many people fishing and none of us have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish on any given day. I know a few go home with good feelings in there heart and even fewer with a chromer in the trunk for supper but. For the majority we are muttering under our breath about this guy or that guy and have lost prospective on what was probably a better day fishing rather that working.
So what to do. Well we can continue to do what we are doing now which is criticising what others are doing around us and don't get me wrong, on the Wack it's a dog eat dog river. If I walk into a run and a spot is open and I think a fish is sitting in a particular lie I'm gonna catch the silver devil. Don't be mad that my read produced a fish in the run you are fishing, you were there first so a little thing about snoozing and losing come to mind. And on the Wack it is a dog eat dog river. Never used to be back in the sixties and seventies but a little thing called population growth and something else I will start into are the culprits. Like the saying goes, "don't hate the player, hate the game"
My feeling is when I go fishing I would like to have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish. Not that I want to catch fish every time I go out but I would like to have a reasonable expectation. Back in the early seventies everyone noticed a major decline in the number of spawning steelhead and everything else for that matter and as a result some of us started to do a little thing called catch and release. Well the provincial bureaucrats caught on and we then entered into an arrangemet where by we would need to have catch and release region and in some case province wide until such time as stocks rebuilt to a level where the restrictions could be lifted. That was in the mid seventies. Now here we are in 2011 and we still have province wide catch and release and on some rivers like the Thompson we have total periodic closures. My own assessment of those temporary catch and release regulations are that IT"S NOT WORKING. I know of too many rivers in the lower mainland that stocks either continue downward out of control or because they don't have a way that they can confidently assess wild steelhead stocks they keep the regulations in place.
This takes us to our problem on the Wack. Because it is the only reasonably successful hatchery program in the lower mainland and because everyone who fishes would like a reasonable expectation of catching a fish and because catch and release has not worked we are where we are right now. Too many fishers and too few fish so what do we do. We do what humans always do in this situation, we complain to one another. We need to start dealing with the problem. Too many rivers with not enough fish to entice anglers who want the reasonable expectation scenario.
So where do we go from here. Here's a few ideas. We need to continue with catch and release because the gene pool we have left with all the wild fish in a given river is our money in the bank. Next we need to revisit the provincial guidelines on no hatchery type program on a river unless all wild stocks on that system or river are extinct. Now I'm no geneticist but the few I've talked to are unanimous that the genetically adapted wild fish in a particular river are the best building blocks to recover a stock. Hands down success drops off exponentially if no wild fish are available to rebuild. Next is we need to come up with a way to assess steelhead spawners in given areas. How? How about asking anglers to walk a given river or area once a week to actually count the spawners. Like 1,2,3,4... most of us count. Lastly government is usually all about no money. Well I say get the frak out of the way and we will find interest groups and people who have money for causes they hold dear because we all know they are tired of giving to government and no return is evident.
To end it all I can say is unless we the angler put government to task to either get things done or get out of the way so we can ourselves only recourse it to continue as we are now which is a dog eat dog river as far as the Wack goes.
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KP, that was a great post!
When I think about steelhead fishing, I think about how different our current situation might be if steelhead was classified as a salmon instead of trout when it was first discovered by some biologist long time ago. It's management would have fallen under the federal government like other pacific salmon and they would be better managed from the perspective of an average angler.
Urban rivers are no longer natural rivers and they need hatchery programs to support the tens of thousands of anglers, natives and commercial fisherman wanting a piece of the pie. I live close to the Capilano River and go there often, many times just to go for a walk more than fishing. When I go salmon fishing there in fall, I rarely if ever get skunked. Whereas, when I go steelhead fishing, I don't expect to catch anything. Fishing is abysmal for both experienced locals and newbies alike. In winter I go fishing for an hour or two to just get some fresh air and have a chat with some of the regulars at the river. I think steelheading situation is not much different at other urban rivers in Greater Vancouver area. That is why so many people get crammed into the Vedder this time of the season and all etiquette flies out the window.
Could the situation be different? I am not a biologist, but I think yes. At the Capilano Hatchery, the numbers are there for everyone to see. Every year they release 600,000 coho smolts, 600,000 spring smolts and only 15,000 steelhead smolts. That is why we have good salmon fishing and dysmal steehead fishing despite 10 years of steelhead catch and release on the river. The numbers are probably similar for other urban rivers in GVR. They all have lousy steelhead fishing.
If the provincial governent is not going to do anything about steelhead fishing in GVR, they might as well turn over the responsibility to the federal government.
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Could the situation be different? I am not a biologist, but I think yes. At the Capilano Hatchery, the numbers are there for everyone to see. Every year they release 600,000 coho smolts, 600,000 spring smolts and only 15,000 steelhead smolts. That is why we have good salmon fishing and dysmal steehead fishing despite 10 years of steelhead catch and release on the river. The numbers are probably similar for other urban rivers in GVR. They all have lousy steelhead fishing.
If the provincial governent is not going to do anything about steelhead fishing in GVR, they might as well turn over the responsibility to the federal government.
The fact that only 15,000 steelhead smolts blows me away, because alot of them will not be coming back, and alot of anglers will keep them even if its catch and release. And the fact that 600,000 chinook and coho smolts are relased, just makes the salmon fishery go up in number of anglers, and then steelhead angler numbers go up :-\ which brings the flossers and snaggers out in winter for steelhead, because they think that steelhead are like a salmon thousands of thousands of them in the river, and as they think willing to bite a bare hook. I understand steelhead are considered challinging and you shouldnt go with an attitude of catching one etc. but if say every 2nd year they relased 30,000 steelies smolts, and continue catch and relase only, but keep something like this on the down low, then guys would get rewarded with a fish more often, and learn you can catch a fish without the need of 5 foot leaders and huge weights.
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So here I am sitting my butt in front of this damn machine scrolling through all the chit chat on this particular topic and my mind wanders and I daydream about finding that phone booth that Doctor Who character has so as I could use it to go back sixty or seventy years and spend a liesurely afternoon fishing the Wack. Snap, Here i am 2011 reading all the garp about this and that and it dawns on me what the problem is. Now wether it's fence posting or walking in below someone, it's to many people fishing and none of us have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish on any given day. I know a few go home with good feelings in there heart and even fewer with a chromer in the trunk for supper but. For the majority we are muttering under our breath about this guy or that guy and have lost prospective on what was probably a better day fishing rather that working.
So what to do. Well we can continue to do what we are doing now which is criticising what others are doing around us and don't get me wrong, on the Wack it's a dog eat dog river. If I walk into a run and a spot is open and I think a fish is sitting in a particular lie I'm gonna catch the silver devil. Don't be mad that my read produced a fish in the run you are fishing, you were there first so a little thing about snoozing and losing come to mind. And on the Wack it is a dog eat dog river. Never used to be back in the sixties and seventies but a little thing called population growth and something else I will start into are the culprits. Like the saying goes, "don't hate the player, hate the game"
My feeling is when I go fishing I would like to have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish. Not that I want to catch fish every time I go out but I would like to have a reasonable expectation. Back in the early seventies everyone noticed a major decline in the number of spawning steelhead and everything else for that matter and as a result some of us started to do a little thing called catch and release. Well the provincial bureaucrats caught on and we then entered into an arrangemet where by we would need to have catch and release region and in some case province wide until such time as stocks rebuilt to a level where the restrictions could be lifted. That was in the mid seventies. Now here we are in 2011 and we still have province wide catch and release and on some rivers like the Thompson we have total periodic closures. My own assessment of those temporary catch and release regulations are that IT"S NOT WORKING. I know of too many rivers in the lower mainland that stocks either continue downward out of control or because they don't have a way that they can confidently assess wild steelhead stocks they keep the regulations in place.
This takes us to our problem on the Wack. Because it is the only reasonably successful hatchery program in the lower mainland and because everyone who fishes would like a reasonable expectation of catching a fish and because catch and release has not worked we are where we are right now. Too many fishers and too few fish so what do we do. We do what humans always do in this situation, we complain to one another. We need to start dealing with the problem. Too many rivers with not enough fish to entice anglers who want the reasonable expectation scenario.
So where do we go from here. Here's a few ideas. We need to continue with catch and release because the gene pool we have left with all the wild fish in a given river is our money in the bank. Next we need to revisit the provincial guidelines on no hatchery type program on a river unless all wild stocks on that system or river are extinct. Now I'm no geneticist but the few I've talked to are unanimous that the genetically adapted wild fish in a particular river are the best building blocks to recover a stock. Hands down success drops off exponentially if no wild fish are available to rebuild. Next is we need to come up with a way to assess steelhead spawners in given areas. How? How about asking anglers to walk a given river or area once a week to actually count the spawners. Like 1,2,3,4... most of us count. Lastly government is usually all about no money. Well I say get the frak out of the way and we will find interest groups and people who have money for causes they hold dear because we all know they are tired of giving to government and no return is evident.
To end it all I can say is unless we the angler put government to task to either get things done or get out of the way so we can ourselves only recourse it to continue as we are now which is a dog eat dog river as far as the Wack goes.
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Sorry, blew a tire there :) Meant to say Wow, excellent post KP. Especially like your thoughts on genetics and enumerations.
Yeah, I remember how it was on the Vedder ....
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The fact that only 15,000 steelhead smolts blows me away, because alot of them will not be coming back, and alot of anglers will keep them even if its catch and release. And the fact that 600,000 chinook and coho smolts are relased, just makes the salmon fishery go up in number of anglers, and then steelhead angler numbers go up :-\ which brings the flossers and snaggers out in winter for steelhead, because they think that steelhead are like a salmon thousands of thousands of them in the river, and as they think willing to bite a bare hook. I understand steelhead are considered challinging and you shouldnt go with an attitude of catching one etc. but if say every 2nd year they relased 30,000 steelies smolts, and continue catch and relase only, but keep something like this on the down low, then guys would get rewarded with a fish more often, and learn you can catch a fish without the need of 5 foot leaders and huge weights.
We will never go back to the good old days in fishing, because there are just so much more people fishing and they will NOT go away.
This trend towards greater public participation is not limited to sports fishing, but also golf and many other sports just to name of few.
I grew up both fishing and golfing and I learned both from my father more than 30 years ago, including etiquette.
But when I look at both today, it is a totally different world than when I first started.
Times have changed and people who come in today, come from sometimes different backgrounds and attitudes.
Many have not been taught by their dad or uncle how to fish properly.
Often they go to Walmart or Canadian Tire and buy a rod and reel combo and just hit the river so to speak.
Yes, I agree that better enforcement and education is needed, but at the same time more supply is needed.
If Vedder didn't have it's 130,000 or so smolts released every year, would we have the level of steelhead fishing there? I think not.
Whether we like it or not, all urban habitats are managed ones and urban rivers are no different.
Better management is needed.
I think things can be improved for an average steelhead fisherman in GVRD. :)
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We will never go back to the good old days in fishing, because there are just so much more people fishing and they will NOT go away.
well never say never, a plague could wipe out 99.9% of humans if we are lucky ;D
now time to chip in my 3 cents. (i had a nice long post written up (3 or 4 times what you see below, but it dissapeared :'( so Now i post my summary of what I had written)
imo, part of the problem (besides the general lack of regulations being followed :-\ ) is a lack of caring in the government. Sure they will make some taxes off of us sport fishermen, but in the grander scheme of things, we are a tiny consideration. if I were in charge, I would have every major river (and minor river thats worth while) in the Fraser Valley being stocked annually. I would organize cleanups for the smaller rivers (like the Brunette River and the such). Even small streams/rivers, when healthy will add large numbers of fish to the overall populations and nutrients to the river. Which in turn would allow for more fishing (commerial and recreational) alike. and in turn, more tax income.
I would also invest in fish ladders around ALL the dams in the Fraser Valley that use to have fish runs (ie, te Stave, Coquitlam and the such).
I would also set maximum size regulations on all species of fish (trout and salmon and the such) in the Fraser Valley, (the trout that grew to be fifteen pounds obviously has good genes that should be passed on etc...) This, hopefully, with tighter restrictions on the number of fish kept and harsher penalties would help increase the overall fish population.
But alas this is just wishful thinking :-\
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well never say never, a plague could wipe out 99.9% of humans if we are lucky ;D
I stand corrected.
It is 'highly unlikely' that we will go back to the good old days of fishing. ;)
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I had a beak with his river mechanic tackle box, jean jacket and wallyworld waders set down and decide that he was gonna fish right at the end of my swing, (skagit head 27', 15sink tip, and 12" leader to fly), Thats about 42 feet. I graciously told him that it wasn't ethical to low hole me and the guy cp fishing 40 feet above me. He said nothing, so I asked if he could hear me. He said yes. I explained that you start at the head of a run and work your way down when theres people fishing it. He Smoked his smoke then picked up his toolbox and went to the head of the run.
I don't wanna be a prick out there but, "Nice fish", thinks 20' below is lowholing. The runs in the vedder are mostly 60'-100'. I get really choked and don't even wanna fish when some unknowing beak, or some ignorant local who thinks he owns the river walks into a run below me. Just don't do it.
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I had a beak with his river mechanic tackle box, jean jacket and wallyworld waders set down and decide that he was gonna fish right at the end of my swing, (skagit head 27', 15sink tip, and 12" leader to fly), Thats about 42 feet. I graciously told him that it wasn't ethical to low hole me and the guy cp fishing 40 feet above me. He said nothing, so I asked if he could hear me. He said yes. I explained that you start at the head of a run and work your way down when theres people fishing it. He Smoked his smoke then picked up his toolbox and went to the head of the run.
I don't wanna be a prick out there but, "Nice fish", thinks 20' below is lowholing. The runs in the vedder are mostly 60'-100'. I get really choked and don't even wanna fish when some unknowing beak, or some ignorant local who thinks he owns the river walks into a run below me. Just don't do it.
Wow you must be getting "choked" everytime you go to the Vedder. Doesn't that hurt after a while? ::)
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People who drive faster than me are maniacs, people who drive slower than me are idiots. I am the model driver, unlike everyone else on the road.
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Wow you must be getting "choked" everytime you go to the Vedder. Doesn't that hurt after a while? ::)
Why do you guys have this idea of the Vedder?
Just because you and NiceFish don't care (and probably do it by the way you are posting), doesn't mean other people will do it too.
I very rarely get people walking in below me at less than 100 feet, and if they do I go around them and go right below them.
I for one have many enjoyable days on the river, and I'm sure that juice probably does too.
We just get annoyed when a select few think it's ok to walk in right below us.
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Why do you guys have this idea of the Vedder?
Just because you and NiceFish don't care (and probably do it by the way you are posting), doesn't mean other people will do it too.
I very rarely get people walking in below me at less than 100 feet, and if they do I go around them and go right below them.
I for one have many enjoyable days on the river, and I'm sure that juice probably does too.
We just get annoyed when a select few think it's ok to walk in right below us.
Most days on the Vedder are very enjoyable for me as well. However they are enjoyable because I don't take it too seriously when someone low holes me....
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My days on the vedder are also very enjoyable. I often fish alone for most of the day, while I did say I would cut in someone in a crowded area at about 100 feet, I quite usually choose to fish in un occupied water...just more "peaceful" for me. I'm not going fishing to fight or get stressed out, that is for sure. I'm going to enjoy myself, and I most certainly wouldn't come out of no where to low hole someone when there are plenty of other areas to fish, but if all the water is occupied ...it's.....how KP said "dog eat dog"
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Despite complaints by some anglers, I think we are fortunate to have a river like Vedder/Chilliwack in the lower mainland where a competent and well prepared fisherman have a reasonable chance to hook a steelhead on a given day. I would love to go to Vedder, but difficulty of taking a full day off from work have made me stick to my local rivers where I fish two hours a day or so between work and family duties. There are very few anglers fishing on my local river at this time, I know most of them by face, there are no ill mannered people, it is very pleasant, BUT there are also very few steelhead even though it is a catch and release river.
Despite occasional ill mannered anglers, folks fishing the Vedder/Chilliwack should consider yourself lucky! Tight lines! ;D
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What is local river bigblue?
Well, I live in the North Shore of Vancouver and there are only a handful of rivers/streams you can fish there.
As I said, there are almost no people because there are almost no fish to catch.
A sad state of affairs when it comes to steelhead fishing.
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Really...I live on the Lower Lonsdale area of the North Shore of Vancouver :D ;D!
See ya around ChromeKings! ;D
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agreed man some people just have no respect on the river. Sadly it can wreck your day >:(
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I made my first trip out to the Vedder yesterday and fished on a long gravel island.
There were about a dozen guys fishing at same time along the bank and everyone was moving down stream at good pace.
One guy was fence posting at one point, but when I asked to pass he was happy to let me through.
Everyone was very well mannered and although fishing was on the slow side it was all very pleasant.
Looking forward to many good days of fishing on the Vedder before the season is over. :)