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Author Topic: Canada - China Trade Deal  (Read 23108 times)

Novabonker

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2012, 11:34:54 AM »



PS. I contribute enough to Canada having a good 43% or so of my income getting taxed! How much taxes do you pay Novabonker?

Maybe you should talk to AF- he's a financial dude and I'm quite sure he can help you ease that tax burden. By using a tax calculator, you're earning over $200,000 a year. You've got enough to live on, but begrudge a hard working person a living wage.
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adriaticum

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2012, 01:20:02 PM »

I think the whole idea behind resource exploitation is that people who live in BC should be exploiting it's resources.
Nobody else, no foreign country, or interest should be dictating how I should use my land.
This BS has gone out of control with all the stupid naftas and fippas.

I can piss in your yard a lot, because at the end of the day I don't have to live there.

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Novabonker

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2012, 02:20:04 PM »

I think the whole idea behind resource exploitation is that people who live in BC should be exploiting it's resources.
Nobody else, no foreign country, or interest should be dictating how I should use my land.
This BS has gone out of control with all the stupid naftas and fippas.

I can piss in your yard a lot, because at the end of the day I don't have to live there.




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Novabonker

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2012, 02:23:38 PM »

I think the whole idea behind resource exploitation is that people who live in BC should be exploiting it's resources.
Nobody else, no foreign country, or interest should be dictating how I should use my land.
This BS has gone out of control with all the stupid naftas and fippas.

I can piss in your yard a lot, because at the end of the day I don't have to live there.


If you really want to feel nausea, look up what you can do on others property with mineral rights. I can come and set up camp and do "exploration" which can be pretty disturbing.
Hmmmmmm-What's Ed's address? ;D
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Ed

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2012, 04:56:03 PM »

Maybe you should talk to AF- he's a financial dude and I'm quite sure he can help you ease that tax burden. By using a tax calculator, you're earning over $200,000 a year. You've got enough to live on, but begrudge a hard working person a living wage.

Its OK because i'm fine with paying taxes. Its one of the things that I can do to help the others in Canada that aren't so fortunate. But to tell me that its wrong for immigrant workers to come to Canada because nobody here is willing to work for a competative salary is BS. It's true what adriaticum says, that nobody likes foreign countries exploiting our resources but its all part of how the globalized world works these days. I'm sure nobody was complaining much when we were benefiting from other countries in trade or how the Americans used to take advantage of South America and Canada in trade. It's sad but its just how things work, what comes around goes around. Now the only difference is, China is the rich country now and they are the ones taking advantage (this isn't the threat of REDDAWN and communism, everything is done properly with western rules and laws).

I'm lucky that I live by the water, hopefully coal harbour doesn't mean that there is coal in the harbour so people wont come here and mine for minerals.... :P   But at least they are moving away the little airport away from my place to closer to the convention center...
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skaha

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2012, 05:23:21 PM »

--I would hope that people are just mixing these words without malice ... the people coming to work at this mine are coming under temp work permits thus will leave when the job is over.
--Immigrants come here to stay and become Canadians.

--Canadian workers also travel... especially in the mining industry to many other parts of the world some with the intent to return to Canada others to be adopted by their new country... we expect our workers to be treated fairly in these other countries.

--We beak off about human rights in China then allow the exploitation of these same workers when they come to Canada...Some say they are better off coming here and have much better working conditions than then do in China... I don't care if they are less exploited here.. they should not be exploited at all in Canada... we should be setting an example to the world and practice what we preach.
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Novabonker

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alwaysfishn

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2012, 06:38:01 PM »

--We beak off about human rights in China then allow the exploitation of these same workers when they come to Canada...Some say they are better off coming here and have much better working conditions than then do in China... I don't care if they are less exploited here.. they should not be exploited at all in Canada... we should be setting an example to the world and practice what we preach.

I hear this said a lot.... mostly from the labor unions. Could someone provide some factual evidence of how these workers are being "exploited"?
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adriaticum

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2012, 07:30:04 PM »

Its OK because i'm fine with paying taxes. Its one of the things that I can do to help the others in Canada that aren't so fortunate. But to tell me that its wrong for immigrant workers to come to Canada because nobody here is willing to work for a competative salary is BS. It's true what adriaticum says, that nobody likes foreign countries exploiting our resources but its all part of how the globalized world works these days. I'm sure nobody was complaining much when we were benefiting from other countries in trade or how the Americans used to take advantage of South America and Canada in trade. It's sad but its just how things work, what comes around goes around. Now the only difference is, China is the rich country now and they are the ones taking advantage (this isn't the threat of REDDAWN and communism, everything is done properly with western rules and laws).

I'm lucky that I live by the water, hopefully coal harbour doesn't mean that there is coal in the harbour so people wont come here and mine for minerals.... :P   But at least they are moving away the little airport away from my place to closer to the convention center...

This one is fairly difficult to understand and explain, but yes, it's wrong.
There are many wrongs with this.
First a foreign company should not be owning anything in BC. But hell, we have sold so much already and people accept that. Unfortunately.
Second, we have shifted our mentality completely and companies do not exist to produce product or service to it's community and for export, but rather the company solely exists to make a profit. That's how half of the world wealth is owned by financial companies and hedge funds that have no clue about the businesses they own and don't give a damn.

I agree nobody is complaining when we exploit other countries resources, but that's mostly because we don't know. We are mostly uneducated the waste our companies are laying on other environments. Also we are used to the good times and we don't care too.
Well I come from a different background and know both sides of the story so my principals may be different then most.

Unfortunately the extremely wealthy are doing this and through marketing making us believe that this globalization thing is a new concept and a good one.
But also in a sales transaction there are two consenting parties. A seller and a buyer. So the seller is to blame too.

This is really a matter of one's beliefs; and this is my belief.


Alwaysfishing, yes they are exploited through low pay, poor living conditions and some have even been threatened. I know of many immigrants coming into the country under the guise of a better life and yet they end up as, labour slaves, sex slaves etc.
Unfortunately for some of the chinese workers even that is better than what they had so they don't complain and we don't hear about it.
Sometimes it takes years before people understand life in a new country and know their rights, privileges and obligations.
Especially if they don't speak the language.
This is something one can't explain to a non-immigrant.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 07:32:36 PM by adriaticum »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2012, 07:47:52 PM »


Alwaysfishing, yes they are exploited through low pay, poor living conditions and some have even been threatened. I know of many immigrants coming into the country under the guise of a better life and yet they end up as, labour slaves, sex slaves etc.
Unfortunately for some of the chinese workers even that is better than what they had so they don't complain and we don't hear about it.
Sometimes it takes years before people understand life in a new country and know their rights, privileges and obligations.
Especially if they don't speak the language.
This is something one can't explain to a non-immigrant.


Not sure if you are talking about the same Chinese workers I am referring to....   Perhaps you could share where you have gotten your information on these Chinese miners? Haven't they just started work here in the last week or so? Isn't it a little early to suggest that they are experiencing poor living conditions? Have they been forced to come to Canada to work here?

The company has been quoted as saying "Workers will be paid between $25 and $40 per hour, with total yearly compensation between $84,000 and $113,000 including pay, benefits, housing and food...... "  That seems like a pretty decent living doesn't it?

I also need to question your statement: "I know of many immigrants coming into the country under the guise of a better life and yet they end up as, labour slaves, sex slaves etc."   Are you saying you know a lot of immigrants that are working as "slaves"?  Have you reported the situation to any Canadian authorities? Last time I checked slavery is against the law in Canada....


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skaha

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2012, 08:40:51 PM »

I hear this said a lot.... mostly from the labor unions. Could someone provide some factual evidence of how these workers are being "exploited"?


--I base my perception  of exploitation on the companies own statement of fact in applying for the use of temp workers... they indicated that NO qualified Canadians applied... from this I concluded the working conditions and or rates of pay were not similar to other mines in Canada...Or one could choose to believe that all Canadian Miners are working or that no Canadian miners are capable of working in this mine. 

--I would hope that information will be forthcoming in the court case...there is however no guarantee that information presented in the court case will be made public.
--I would be OK with a simple requirement to have a bulletin board at the mine site with job posting from other mines in Canada so that these miners could see all opportunities available to them in Canada. I am only asking to be assured  that they be given a free choice.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:03:37 PM by skaha »
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adriaticum

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2012, 09:51:54 PM »

alwaysfishin, not the chinese workers that haven't arrived here yet, I'm talking about existing people in Alberta and here.
It was on the news a few months ago, I think it was in Fort McMurray or something like that.
Also there is constantly reports of foreign migrants working in the fields here in BC and living in shacks.
If you scratched the surface in some communities you would find interesting things.

There is a huge pressure on all producers to lower prices.
I don't think we really know the value of things these days.

On one hand I feel pitty for the average consumer, and on the other I think they deserve to be ripped off.
It's a conflict  :D

--skaha,
-- the case of the chinese mining company is clear. They have monumental population and labour pressures in China and would gladly send anybody that wants to go anywhere where population is not as dense and standard of living better.
this is a clear win/win/win for china, the company and the migrant workers. A Loss for the labour force in BC.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:58:38 PM by adriaticum »
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skaha

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2012, 09:57:35 AM »

--I understand the win win win of economic colonialism. I just don't want to see "special work zones" which this is creating where the workers will be vulnerable to abuse. (we have not yet proven abuse has happened just that given the circumstances it is likely to have happened)
--The temp workers I also understand the idea.. Fruit harvest in the Okanagan has gone this route of temp work permits...some get treated well and to the contract given others do not get treated well... It seems we see the same articles every year here of exploitation of these worker's and of no surprise it is the same farmers year after year that complaints surface and they pay the fines as a cost of doing business.
--It is not only an abuse of the workers but a strain on those farmers who pay according to the contract and provide decent accommodation and safety.
--By having this mine under a microscope.... perhaps all these bad things will not happen... that is all I am really asking. Have the mine inspected for safety and adherence to the contract and ensure the intent of the temp worker law is followed. Ensure these workers are informed of their rights and opportunities in Canada.
--One does not have to go very far to find companies that view safety regulations as a burdon... At our local chain food store when it is known an auditor is coming in (their own company safety inspection not a government one) the local manager moved all temp staff to another shift so that only fully trained staff would be questioned.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 10:01:05 AM by skaha »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2012, 10:10:45 AM »

--I understand the win win win of economic colonialism. I just don't want to see "special work zones" which this is creating where the workers will be vulnerable to abuse. (we have not yet proven abuse has happened just that given the circumstances it is likely to have happened)
--The temp workers I also understand the idea.. Fruit harvest in the Okanagan has gone this route of temp work permits...some get treated well and to the contract given others do not get treated well... It seems we see the same articles every year here of exploitation of these worker's and of no surprise it is the same farmers year after year that complaints surface and they pay the fines as a cost of doing business.
--It is not only an abuse of the workers but a strain on those farmers who pay according to the contract and provide decent accommodation and safety.
--By having this mine under a microscope.... perhaps all these bad things will not happen... that is all I am really asking. Have the mine inspected for safety and adherence to the contract and ensure the intent of the temp worker law is followed. Ensure these workers are informed of their rights and opportunities in Canada.
--One does not have to go very far to find companies that view safety regulations as a burdon... At our local chain food store when it is known an auditor is coming in (their own company safety inspection not a government one) the local manager moved all temp staff to another shift so that only fully trained staff would be questioned.

I think you are worrying about stuff that you don't need to be worrying about......   The mine is located in BC, Canada where the laws of the country/province apply. Under BC law WCB safety regulations must be adhered to, or WCB can shut the mine down or at the very least the companies premiums would be huge.

All the things you are suggesting could be interpreted as "fear mongering" which is what is being heard from the union movement. I'm not sure of your motivations, however the union movements motivation is clear..... they would like the workers to be unionized so they can collect the union dues.
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troutbreath

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Re: Canada - China Trade Deal
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2012, 10:28:59 AM »

http://cupe.ca/health-and-safety/canary-online-20-westray-mine-disaster

There were other stories about it that were not from a union but .......
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another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?