Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: StillAqua on August 04, 2014, 05:52:08 PM
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So much for earth filled dams.......right down the Fraser River pipe at the peak of salmon migration.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1490361/tailings-pond-breach-at-mount-polley-mine-near-likely-bc/ (http://globalnews.ca/news/1490361/tailings-pond-breach-at-mount-polley-mine-near-likely-bc/)
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What a tragic catastrophe.
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disgusting.
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I wonder how the toxic spill that happened today into the Quensel River that will enter the Fraser will effect the salmon runs especially the sockeye that spawn there, sad that this happened. I heard on the news fish are dying now, will it kill millions of our sockeye and chinook?
Will it make eating these fish below the slide unsafe to eat?
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The spill is the equivalent to 2,000 Olympic sized swimming pools. >:(
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This is sickening me, I am scared for our fishery.
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There is going to be some huge commercial openings at the mouth to net these fish before the pollution makes its way down... I doubt there will be a rec opening. Commercial fisheries r still going to get their pay day .
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When the tailing pond at Carolin Mines overflowed a little it killed every fish that was in the Coquehalla at that time. That was nothing compared to the volume that poured out of the Mount Polley mine. Hopefully it will dilute enough not to poison every fish in the Quesnel system.
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good by early runs !
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Hopefully the Fraser is not at risk and any contamination that could get through a huge slow body of water like Quensel lake will we diluted to safe levels. Remember all the paranoia about Fukismia. It will devastate the areas nearest to the discharge. They have not given warnings to communities on the Fraser.
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One of the first acts of our Liberal Provincial government when they came in power in 2001 was to rewrite the mine practices code, because it seemed that the enviormental laws that the former government had put in were stifling economic development and it was taking too long for new mines to become producers. Along with making the eviormental hoops easier to jump through they also cut back on the amount of mine inspectors policing their new laws, citing that big industry should take resposibility for policing itself. This incident could amount to the biggest disaster in the history of BC, bar none. We should all be praying that toxic levels do not reach the Fraser, something like this could change the face of BC forever.
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Hopefully the Fraser is not at risk and any contamination that could get through a huge slow body of water like Quensel lake will we diluted to safe levels. Remember all the paranoia about Fukismia. It will devastate the areas nearest to the discharge. They have not given warnings to communities on the Fraser.
. Sounds like its right at the mouth of quesnel in likely...therefore I doubt the lake will have the diluting affect you think it will. There's current at that end of the lake that will pulling the till right down stream . Iv stayed at a friends cabin right near the likely narrows.Used to be trout in that area like salmon they were so big.
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Imperial Metals says in their news release the " the situation is stabilized". Interpretation: 'The tailings are all gone down the river, nothing left to spill'.
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Imperial Metals says in their news release the " the situation is stabilized". Interpretation: 'The tailings are all gone down the river, nothing left to spill'.
Precisely.
Looking at the aerial video, Hazeltine Creek, and its Rainbows and Sockeye and Coho spawning beds, was completely wiped out by the flood and buried in tailings sediments, no doubt loaded with lots of toxic metals like copper, cadmium and selenium that they were trying to retain in the pond. In the video you can see the green plume spreading out into Quesnel Lake.... :'( :'(
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http://www.ec.gc.ca/inrp-npri/donnees-data/index.cfm?do=disposal_details&lang=En&opt_npri_id=0000005102&opt_report_year=2013
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Immediate salmon fishing closure has been issued for several watersheds in Region 5A.
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=161980&ID=all
Due to the breach in a mine tailings dam near Likely, BC, effective immediately
there is no fishing for salmon in the following waters:
-Cariboo River from the confluence of the Quesnel River to the confluence of
Seller Creek; and
-Quesnel River downstream of Poquette Creek.
VO# 2014-355
Notes:
Barbless hooks are required when fishing for salmon in tidal and non-tidal
waters of British Columbia.
Sport anglers are encouraged to participate in the Salmon Sport Head Recovery
program by labelling and submitting heads from adipose fin-clipped chinook and
coho salmon. Recovery of coded-wire tags provides critical information for
coast-wide stock assessment. Contact the Salmon Sport Head Recovery Program
toll free at (866) 483-9994 for further information.
Did you witness suspicious fishing activity or a violation? If so, please call
the Fisheries and Ocean Canada 24-hour toll free Observe, Record, Report line
at (800) 465-4336.
For the 24 hour recorded opening and closure line, call toll free at
1-(866) 431-FISH (3474).
FOR MORE INFORMATION:
Linda Stevens, DFO Williams Lake Tel: (250) 305-4004
Fisheries & Oceans Operations Center - FN0753
Sent August 5, 2014 at 1618
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A wise and appropriate response from DFO, imo. This has the potential to be really bad but apparently we won't know how serious for some time. Meanwhile these Quesnel component sockeye and chinook stocks are doing what they do best, heading home ...
We wish you well.
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def unfortunate. where these large stocks of salmon? never been up that way before.
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They should build a dam on the river to trap the toxic sediment.
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def unfortunate. where these large stocks of salmon? never been up that way before.
If you are talking about the Quesnel Lake, the tributaries with the largest escapements are primarily the Horsefly and the Mitchell rivers. There are multiple areas of the lake where there is shore spawning, but not all shoreline areas are utilized as often as others. The use of shoreline spawning areas likely depends in part on how big the escapement to the lake is. On big escapements (i.e. early 2000s) many of the shoreline areas will likely be used. On lower abundance years, not all of them will be used. Sockeye on the lake tend to go to the prime spots first (i.e. Deception Pt. on the North Arm) then go to the others if more room is needed. Many of these shoreline spawning areas are on the North and East arms of the lake. There you go.
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Someone has posted videos of yesterday's town hall meeting in case anyone wants to watch them.
https://www.youtube.com/user/GotNewsNetwork/videos
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That head of the regional district was really good , whenever a nasty question arose he changed the agenda to bring some one else up to the table so the question got pushed back. >:( He must be looking for a safe seat for the liberals in the next election. ;D
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We get an actual idea today how bad this might be.
Water quality tests get released today
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They are still saying that it is unsafe to test the mud, no way to get a sample. These people are REALLY stupid or hoping for a big rain storm to wash the creek bare. A five gallon bucket under a helicopter on a long line seems like it would work for me. After all that creek is a 150 metres wide now. I have been landed in helicopters in a hell of a lot smaller area.
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They are still saying that it is unsafe to test the mud, no way to get a sample. These people are REALLY stupid or hoping for a big rain storm to wash the creek bare. A five gallon bucket under a helicopter on a long line seems like it would work for me. After all that creek is a 150 metres wide now. I have been landed in helicopters in a hell of a lot smaller area.
--As you indicated... IF they wanted a sample... they could get one... I don't see why they would need a sample... obviously the stuff was so toxic that it had to be contained in ponds... if it was safe why not just drain it direct in the first place.. this is a no brainer.
--I also agree with the mine spokes person... the water on the surface of the pond where the toxins have settled out should be relatively safe... that is why they use a pond to settle out the toxins... again if it didn't work that would not be a requirement.
--As to MOE spokes person almost in tears... it takes days to get sample results... BS... this is a priority use Christy's jet to transport the samples to multiple labs and get it done. What takes days is deciding how to spin doctor the results.
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--As you indicated... IF they wanted a sample... they could get one... I don't see why they would need a sample... obviously the stuff was so toxic that it had to be contained in ponds... if it was safe why not just drain it direct in the first place.. this is a no brainer.
--I also agree with the mine spokes person... the water on the surface of the pond where the toxins have settled out should be relatively safe... that is why they use a pond to settle out the toxins... again if it didn't work that would not be a requirement.
--As to MOE spokes person almost in tears... it takes days to get sample results... BS... this is a priority use Christy's jet to transport the samples to multiple labs and get it done. What takes days is deciding how to spin doctor the results.
Considering when the event happened during the early morning on a long weekend I don't think the turnaround time to get results was that unreasonable. Ever tried sending samples to a lab for water testing? I have. I'm sure that ministry staff did their best to get samples taken and sent to the lab as soon as possible. I'm finding no shortage of experts on water sampling and environmental assessment these days.
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--I stand by my statement... yes if I was sending a personal sample from my own tap I would expect it to take months. Not an issue. I wouldn't expect staff to be called in on a long weekend to check samples of my well water either.
--I don't believe you need a PHD to speculate that this was a significant event thus requires some urgency.
--Just as when one has a medical issue on a long weekend and they go to emergency... if their case is not urgent they are sent home with an aspirin and told to make an appointment with their own doctor. They may even get scolded for utilizing the emergency services for such a trivial matter.
--I don't believe anyone is indicating that this is a trivial or routine matter that can wait in line for due process.
--Maybe some registered experts need to go back to school for a refresher course.
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http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Major+Imperial+Metals+shareholder+billionaire+Murray+Edwards/10102715/story.html
Could explain some of the foot dragging
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--I stand by my statement... yes if I was sending a personal sample from my own tap I would expect it to take months. Not an issue. I wouldn't expect staff to be called in on a long weekend to check samples of my well water either.
--I don't believe you need a PHD to speculate that this was a significant event thus requires some urgency.
--Just as when one has a medical issue on a long weekend and they go to emergency... if their case is not urgent they are sent home with an aspirin and told to make an appointment with their own doctor. They may even get scolded for utilizing the emergency services for such a trivial matter.
--I don't believe anyone is indicating that this is a trivial or routine matter that can wait in line for due process.
--Maybe some registered experts need to go back to school for a refresher course.
You don't know what you are talking about. Three days to get results of water samples which includes taking the sample, shipping, testing, review of the results for QA/QC and reporting is actually exceptional. Again I ask you, have you ever taken water samples before, sent them to a lab and received the results. If the ministry was using a private lab then good luck trying to contact them on BC Day.
Ministry staff were treating this urgently. To suggest that they were dragging their heels in getting water samples done with something this significant shows a real lack of understanding on your part. Maybe some anonymous armchair experts should put their rods away for awhile and go to Likely and show them what to do instead of suggesting refresher courses.
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http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/CRD-Order-to-Restrict-Access-Mt-Polley-TASK152048_20140809.pdf
--But if I went up there to help out I would be breaking the law. (see link above)
--I had actually planned a year ago to be there this week fishing in Quesnel lake.
--For obvious reasons we have had to change our plans.
--I was not aware that environmental emergency plans did not include contingecies for holidays. I guess incidents only happen during the week 9-5.. thus no plans need to be in place when this is not the case.
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all I know is every time I hear a politician say "we need to reduce redtape for industry" I'm going to think of this.
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http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/CRD-Order-to-Restrict-Access-Mt-Polley-TASK152048_20140809.pdf
--But if I went up there to help out I would be breaking the law. (see link above)
--I had actually planned a year ago to be there this week fishing in Quesnel lake.
--For obvious reasons we have had to change our plans.
--I was not aware that environmental emergency plans did not include contingecies for holidays. I guess incidents only happen during the week 9-5.. thus no plans need to be in place when this is not the case.
What? You aren't going up there to help because you would be breaking the law? Yeah that's right......that's what's holding you back. Nothing to do with your lack of experience regarding water sampling. It's that damn law.
Instead of guessing about timelines why don't you go to the source?
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/QA-MtPolleyMineTailings_20140810.pdf
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Considering when the event happened during the early morning on a long weekend I don't think the turnaround time to get results was that unreasonable. Ever tried sending samples to a lab for water testing? I have. I'm sure that ministry staff did their best to get samples taken and sent to the lab as soon as possible. I'm finding no shortage of experts on water sampling and environmental assessment these days.
Utter codswallop. Darn near every company has on call staff for emergent purposes and more that can be called in. Or wasn't this case emergent enough for you? ::) Did I mention codswallop?What parallel world do you inhabit?
BTW Skaha - Welcome to the Steve's communications skills if you don't agree with him. :o
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Project
Report To
Colleen Hughes, MOUNT POLLEY MINING CORP. ~LIKELY
ALS File No.
L1499194
Date Received
08-Aug-14 09:00
Date
09-Aug-14
DETECTION LIMITS
Sample ID
POL-1
POL-2
Date Sampled
07-AUG-14
07-AUG-14
Time Sampled
11:10
01:50
ALS Sample ID
L1499194-1
L1499194-2
--It appears from their own report that samples taken on the 7th.... results given early morning of 8th then posted on the 9th.
--It would appear that sample turnaroundtime is less than the time it takes to post the results of the samples.
--There does not seem to be an issue with doing the job on the ground or doing the lab work... my point was that it takes longer to SPIN the results than to GET the results. I have every confidence in the professional ability's of ministry and company "field staff".
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-- I have been involved in a number of emergency situations (not caused by me)
-- The last thing response staff need is someone unannounced (including politicians) showing up and getting in the way.
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Utter codswallop. Darn near every company has on call staff for emergent purposes and more that can be called in. Or wasn't this case emergent enough for you? ::) Did I mention codswallop?What parallel world do you inhabit?
BTW Skaha - Welcome to the Steve's communications skills if you don't agree with him. :o
Well nobody is as misinformed as you so thanks for chiming in. Why don't you read the link I provided to get up to speed on the issue? As for communication skills you should read what you just posted.
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Project
Report To
Colleen Hughes, MOUNT POLLEY MINING CORP. ~LIKELY
ALS File No.
L1499194
Date Received
08-Aug-14 09:00
Date
09-Aug-14
DETECTION LIMITS
Sample ID
POL-1
POL-2
Date Sampled
07-AUG-14
07-AUG-14
Time Sampled
11:10
01:50
ALS Sample ID
L1499194-1
L1499194-2
--It appears from their own report that samples taken on the 7th.... results given early morning of 8th then posted on the 9th.
--It would appear that sample turnaroundtime is less than the time it takes to post the results of the samples.
--There does not seem to be an issue with doing the job on the ground or doing the lab work... my point was that it takes longer to SPIN the results than to GET the results. I have every confidence in the professional ability's of ministry and company "field staff".
Ok, then what makes you believe that the results were spun? Is there something in the results that suggests that the water is still unsafe to use and/or poses a significant risk to aquatic life (including the consumption of fish from areas downstream of Quesnel Lake)? Facts not fiction please.
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--I am in no way questioning the lab results I was merely providing some factual documentation to indicate that exceptional service is much less than 3 days.
" You don't know what you are talking about. Three days to get results of water samples which includes taking the sample, shipping, testing, review of the results for QA/QC and reporting is actually exceptional. "
--The "SPIN" is that everything is now fine. The media battle...showing the slurry running down the creek vs the Mine manager who will be shown fishing the shores and holding up a glass of Gin clear water before taking a sip.
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http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=162464&ID=all
Quesnel and Cariboo Rivers reopen for salmon fishing today based on the water quality testing results provided by MoE.
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Well nobody is as misinformed as you so thanks for chiming in. Why don't you read the link I provided to get up to speed on the issue? As for communication skills you should read what you just posted.
Point proven. And 3 days is far from exceptional.
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Skaha, you are reading the chain of custody date stamps wrong. The water was sampled Aug 7th, it was received at ALS on Aug 8th, and the data (results) were available shortly thereafter. I have sent water samples to ALS before (two weeks ago in fact) and work in a lab myself. You must understand that completing the tests as per the standard test method (whether it be ASTM, AWWA, EPA, etc) would require a minimum amount of time (likely over 24hrs). It doesn't matter how many people rush into the lab to do the work, it still takes time.
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They are still saying that it is unsafe to test the mud, no way to get a sample. These people are REALLY stupid or hoping for a big rain storm to wash the creek bare. A five gallon bucket under a helicopter on a long line seems like it would work for me. After all that creek is a 150 metres wide now. I have been landed in helicopters in a hell of a lot smaller area.
You can't sample soil or sediment like that; it wouldn't be representative. The material would segregate as it was washed out of the pond. Typical sampling practice from a stock pile is you collect sample from three points: bottom, middle and top as you rotate around the pile. We were fortunate that no one was killed in this accident, and there is no need to send someone into an unstable area, risking their life to collect a sediment sample.
--As you indicated... IF they wanted a sample... they could get one... I don't see why they would need a sample... obviously the stuff was so toxic that it had to be contained in ponds... if it was safe why not just drain it direct in the first place.. this is a no brainer.
--As to MOE spokes person almost in tears... it takes days to get sample results... BS... this is a priority use Christy's jet to transport the samples to multiple labs and get it done. What takes days is deciding how to spin doctor the results.
Ever heard of people dying from too much water? Just because it was contained doesn’t mean it was lethal. It’s the concentration that is important, and you do need to sample to know
what you're dealing with.
You have absolutely no idea how to do the lab testing required so how would you know how long it would take to get the results?! Stop spouting BS when you have no clue what you are talking about.
--Maybe some registered experts need to go back to school for a refresher course.
Maybe you should do some background research before you start telling people who make decisions based on fact to “go back to school”.
Utter codswallop. Darn near every company has on call staff for emergent purposes and more that can be called in. Or wasn't this case emergent enough for you? ::) Did I mention codswallop?What parallel world do you inhabit?
Again, it doesn’t matter how many people you throw at the problem, if the Standard Test method says the sample must be treated in some process for 24 hours then it must be treated for 24 hours. Otherwise, you’re jeopardizing accuracy for urgency and in my opinion bad data is useless data no matter how quick you get it.
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Thanks for your informed input, Dion.
What were saying again, Novabonker?
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Thanks for your informed input, Dion.
What were saying again, Novabonker?
That the tests take something around 24 hours and the results 3 days?
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That the tests take something around 24 hours and the results 3 days?
Yeah that's what you were saying. Thanks. ;)
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--The "SPIN" is that everything is now fine. The media battle...showing the slurry running down the creek vs the Mine manager who will be shown fishing the shores and holding up a glass of Gin clear water before taking a sip.
Read the website:
http://www.gov.bc.ca/env/
Restrictions have been lifted (other than the excluded area near Hazeltine) according to the best information collected to date. What do you want Interior Health to say? That the water is not safe to drink when the facts from samples say otherwise? They are no discontinuing monitoring and testing the water - this only the beginning. If there is any spin it's coming from dumb reporters who don't take the time to get the facts straight and love to sensationalize the situation. Read their headlines and then check to see who is providing the expert opinion.
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--You go into the Hospital with your left leg cut off....24 hrs later the Doctor proudly announces... we did several tests and thank God you're right leg is OK. In fact your right leg is in very good shape and you can continue to use it.
--The good news is that while the lab was doing tests on your right leg the bleeding stopped on your left leg. bleeding....there is however still.... much rehab work left to do and no matter what is done... you are not going to be the same as before the accident.
- I am not discounting the importance of the water nor of continued testing. I would not send someone into a dangerous situation to collect samples. They knew enough about what was in the sludge from company records provided. This information was useful in the short term.
- Moving forward to longer term rehab of course they need to know what came out and where it is and what can reasonably be done about it.
--This area is in the interior wet belt... I'm sure the next big rain event will be of some concern.
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Read the website:
http://www.gov.bc.ca/env/
Restrictions have been lifted (other than the excluded area near Hazeltine) according to the best information collected to date. What do you want Interior Health to say? That the water is not safe to drink when the facts from samples say otherwise? They are no discontinuing monitoring and testing the water - this only the beginning. If there is any spin it's coming from dumb reporters who don't take the time to get the facts straight and love to sensationalize the situation. Read their headlines and then check to see who is providing the expert opinion.
2. As a result of this latest testing, Interior Health (IH) has further rescinded its water use advisory. The “Do Not Use” advisory will remain indefinitely for the impact zone directly affected by the breach, which includes Polley Lake, Hazeltine Creek, and where Hazeltine Creek runs into Quesnel Lake, extending to 100 metres from the edge of the sediment deposition.
--This would be the left leg... the right leg is OK for now
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Yeah that's what you were saying. Thanks. ;)
But getting back to the ridiculous - No staff available because it was a stat. Despite my best efforts, I can't for the life of me figure out where that notion comes from. I worked for years in the private sector doing emergency clean ups for floods, fires etc. Left for a job once while eating Christmas dinner. It was just part of the job.
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--Maybe some registered experts need to go back to school for a refresher course.
Found this on another site............
Provincial government sheds scientists, but needs more
Vancouver Sun
Wednesday, August 13, 2014
Page B06
By Scott McCannell
Last week, just a day after the Mount Polley tailings pond disaster, The Vancouver Sun reported that B.C.'s Mines Minister Bill Bennett told a news conference in Williams Lake that he was "losing sleep" over the potential state of 20 similar ponds in the province.
"This gives us about the best reason a person could have to really take a step back. Every Canadian has to be concerned about this," Bennett was quoted as saying.
We at the Professional Employees Association are also losing sleep over what happened at Mount Polley and what could happen elsewhere in the province. In fact, it gives us nightmares because we believe the provincial government is increasing the risk of other tailings pond collapses by systematically cutting back on the number of experts and scientists it employs to inspect them and ensure they are safe.
Since 2004, the Ministry of Energy and Mines has decreased the number of engineers and geologists it employs by 21 per cent. The inspection of tailings ponds is one of the many duties these professionals carry out on behalf of the people of British Columbia.
Minister Bennett says there has been no decrease in the number of inspections of tailings ponds in the past five years (once per year for structural integrity, unless there are complaints or specific issues), but perhaps the inspection schedule itself is the problem. News reports since the incident quote consultants and members of local communities as being concerned about the safety of the pond, but there's no indication that the government sent its engineers to investigate. Bennett said at his Williams Lake media conference that there was no warning or cause for concern.
But it stands to reason that if you cut back on professional staff whose job is to inspect and monitor facilities like tailings ponds, the risk to public safety and the environment increases.
For more than a decade the government has been reducing Licensed Science Officers right across the board. We warned about this in a report in March this year (endangeredexperts. ca/report/PEA_Report.pdf). We showed that between 2009 and 2014 the number of experts and scientists in government dropped by 15 per cent, and the trend is downward.
Our study echoed concerns that have been raised in the past by B.C.'s auditor general. In a February 2012 report, the AG found that the B.C. Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations lacked the capacity to gather important information about forest management.
Only a small portion of B.C.'s forests was ground surveyed to the extent needed to inform decision-making and assist in timber supply reviews, according to the AG's report. This impacted decisions made on harvesting timber, reforestation and the overall health of the forest resource.
These are important issues because natural resources are the backbone of the B.C. economy and neglecting their management and monitoring is a threat to the environment and to the economic well-being of all British Columbians.
Licensed science officers are professionally trained and accredited experts and scientists including foresters, engineers, agrologists, geoscientists, veterinarians, psychologists, physiotherapists and pharmacists. They provide the provincial government with advice, guidance, research, monitoring and review services to help ensure the efficient and effective management, utilization and oversight of B.C.'s natural resources, infrastructure, food and water resources and some aspects of health care services.
They are often the firstline stewards of our natural resources and have oversight of the safety of infrastructure - including tailings ponds. We believe there are now not enough science officers working for the province to adequately look after the interests of British Columbians - and the situation is getting worse.
The cutbacks mean that much of the work these experts and scientists were doing has been reduced, discontinued or contracted out to the private sector. We currently face the prospect of an LNG development boom in B.C. While these projects have the potential to significantly benefit British Columbians, they could become major liabilities if oversight and stewardship are left almost exclusively to the proponents and their consultants.
Now more than ever B.C. needs licensed science officers to ensure that the LNG sector is developed in a way that provides the maximum possible protection to the environment and the people of the province. We should be hiring more experts, not getting rid of them.
Scott McCannell is executive director of the Professional Employees Association (pea.org), a labour union representing 2,500 professionals in British Columbia, including approximately 1,150 government-licensed science officers working for the province.
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http://www.btvancouver.ca/videos/3725264510001/
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--You go into the Hospital with your left leg cut off....24 hrs later the Doctor proudly announces... we did several tests and thank God you're right leg is OK. In fact your right leg is in very good shape and you can continue to use it.
--The good news is that while the lab was doing tests on your right leg the bleeding stopped on your left leg. bleeding....there is however still.... much rehab work left to do and no matter what is done... you are not going to be the same as before the accident.
- I am not discounting the importance of the water nor of continued testing. I would not send someone into a dangerous situation to collect samples. They knew enough about what was in the sludge from company records provided. This information was useful in the short term.
- Moving forward to longer term rehab of course they need to know what came out and where it is and what can reasonably be done about it.
--This area is in the interior wet belt... I'm sure the next big rain event will be of some concern.
You said that the "spin" is that everything is fine now. Who is saying that everything is fine? Why would they say that everything is fine if an advisory is still in effect for that particular area around Hazeltine Creek? It's buyer beware when it come to reading about this tailings breach in the media.
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And the plot thickens......
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mount-polley-tailings-pond-breach-investigated-by-b-c-privacy-watchdog-1.2737084
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Reports of people getting sick...Solid coverage from this top blogger.
http://commonsensecanadian.ca/mount-polley-making-people-sick-anecdotal-clues-questions/
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Now if the mine happened to be Glenn Clarks back deck imagine the investigation eh.
Editorial: Mining company cash to politicians leaves a stench
Vancouver Sun August 15, 2014 11:49 AM
It was an uncomfortable discovery last week that the controlling shareholder of Imperial Mines is a political supporter of Christy Clark.
Photograph by: Leah Hennel, Calgary Herald
It was an uncomfortable discovery last week that the controlling shareholder of Imperial Mines is a political supporter of Christy Clark, and that several companies Murray Edwards is linked to made substantial donations to the provincial Liberals during the years.
As Vancouver Sun reporter Kelly Sinoski reported, Edwards helped organize a $1-million private fundraiser in Calgary last year to bolster the premier's re-election bid. And six firms the Calgary billionaire is connected to have contributed $436,227 to the premier's party since 2005. Specifically, Imperial Metals donated $131,390 to the governing party. Edwards, who has helped the premier make business connections in Calgary, owns, directly or indirectly, 36 per cent of the mining company's shares.
The news is uncomfortable because Imperial Mines earlier this month suffered a tailings pond breach at its Mount Polley mine, releasing millions of cubic metres of metals-laden silt into surrounding waterways, causing potential problems both for human drinking water and fish. The water and silt continue to be tested.
It lately has also come to light that Imperial Metals has received no fewer than five warnings from provincial mining inspectors - the last of which, in May, focused directly on the tailings pond, which overflowed Aug. 4.
Now, in the proper course, political contributions and gestures of support B.C.'s premier received from Edwards and his corporate interests would have no influence on how the mine gets policed by the province. But some inevitably will wonder: could it be that enforcement would have been more rigorous had there been limits on money the governing party has received from this mining company?
It is precisely because no British Columbian ever should be left to wonder about a such potential conflict that B.C.'s excessively permissive system of political donations needs to be reined in.
As it happens, B.C. joins Saskatchewan, Newfoundland and P.E.I. as having the most liberal political donation rules in Canada.
Election BC's Don Main explains: "There are no limits to contributions in B.C. at either the provincial or local elections level. Corporations and individuals (and trade unions) from anywhere in the world can make political contributions of any amount," as long as their donations are not anonymous.
The federal government, Nova Scotia, Quebec and Manitoba all ban contributions from both corporations and trade unions.
And donations from outside Canada are banned at the federal level, and in Quebec, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. In most provinces, annual donation limits are imposed at various levels but always under $10,000 - except in Alberta, where it's under $15,000.
Integrity B.C.'s Dermod Travis earlier this week said that in 2012, Imperial Metals lobbied the province to shorten the approval process for new mines and extend a flow-through tax credit for the industry, measures B.C. has been acting upon.
Isn't that a coincidence?, Travis asks. "Now, every single cent of those donations could simply be because Edwards is a swell guy and Imperial a swell company," he says. "But that won't wash away what some call the sewer scents of B.C. politics from Edwards's largesse."
The province should take prompt action to restrict political contributions, to give voters greater confidence their governance system has no such odour.
===
CORRECTION: An earlier version of this story misspelled Dermod Travis's name.
===
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
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The B.C. Liberals - The bestest government money can buy.
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Reports of people getting sick...Solid coverage from this top blogger.
http://commonsensecanadian.ca/mount-polley-making-people-sick-anecdotal-clues-questions/
Lots of speculation - very little evidence. Very common theme from this "top blogger".
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"This gives us about the best reason a person could have to really take a step back. Every Canadian has to be concerned about this," Bennett was quoted as saying.
Hopefully this will be part of the investigation, but....yeah...Mr. Bennett and his government should take a step back and consider what the impact of these cuts have had to environmental protection - especially if they want public confidence with future projects.
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--Maybe some registered experts need to go back to school for a refresher course.
Over the past decade there has been a 21 per cent cut to the number of licensed science officers in the Ministry of Energy and Mines.
Endangered Experts website...........http://endangeredexperts.ca
Video at the top and further info if you scroll down.
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(http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a56ab882970c01a73e035cfc970d-pi)
Apparently Sockeye do not go into the East Arm of Quesnel Lake according to "Dr." Morton. Morton is quick to jump on the enviro-bandwagon, but it appears like she needs to spend some more time learning about Fraser Sockeye and where they spawn. Doesn't seem she has spent much time on the Horsefly either.
Graphic above from:
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2014/08/been-to-hell.html#comments
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Lots of speculation - very little evidence. Very common theme from this "top blogger".
And oddly enough, I spent the weekend at a rugby tournament with a geologist that works in the mining industry. A very well respected and knowledgeable gent, he says, speaking from well over 25 years in the exploration and mining with methods very similar to Mount Polley - it's a freaking utter disaster. The outlook, from his experience, is quite bleak for that area's fish and wildlife. And I'll take his word over an armchair scientist speaking through his hat any day.
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And here's kindly Uncle Murray, who puts our best interests to the forefront......
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/11/18/canadas-top-oil-entrepreneur-joins-wayne-gretzky-brian-mulroney-and-prem-watsa-as-winner-of-prestigious-international-award/?__lsa=54a7-2b9b
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As I was saying.....lots of speculation - very little evidence.
I don't think even your friend has a crystal ball either. This armchair scientist is referring to results of sampling to date analyzed by professionals who deal with this. I am hoping for the best, but realize, despite the favourable results so far for drinking water and aquatic life, that much more work is required. I am not saying this is not a bad thing, but there has been quite a bit of eco-babble (as Carl Walters describes it) being spread by individuals with little or no experience with this which doesn't help matters.
For instance, Gord Sterritt of the Upper Fraser Fisheries Conservation Alliance went on record to the media as saying that "this could alter their (Sockeye Salmon) senses, put them in a bit of disarray and stress them out," and "they wouldn't be able to mate and get back to their spawning grounds." Well, first off, Gord Sterritt is not a fisheries biologist, yet the media turns to him for his opinion on this instead of consulting an actual fisheries biologist who would know something about this. It seems like the media gets lazy in actually getting the right people to interview for this type of insight. They would rather default to the sensationalized story instead of getting the facts correct. Second, Gord Steritt doesn't know what he is talking about because it's organics compounds that migrating salmon smell - not metals. Then you have Alexandra Morton who puts out a map of salmon migration and direction of flow in Quesnel Lake, but shows that she has no idea about spawning habitat in the lake and adjacent tributaries.
This accident only happened 2 weeks ago, so I think it's premature to create prophecies of doom and gloom - especially when long term monitoring is going to be required. Right now I don't believe it is really known if those metals will necessarily be in a form that will impact fish and wildlife. I believe that pH of the lake has much to do with that (Dion would know more about that). Should the BC government cuts and regulatory actions prior to this accident receive scrutiny? Absolutely, but those government employees on the ground dealing with this shouldn't be vilified by the public over this.
I believe some are getting too carried away and they provide little or no evidence to back up those claims. So, if this is speaking out of my hat then I am guilty as charged.
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Dp a google and then tell me the same thing - tailings pond breaches rarely , if ever turn out well.
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--I agree that the primary Olfactory triggers appear to be organic compounds.
--Fancy explanation of smell memory that fish use in part to navigate to their natal stream.
--It has been shown in the lab that Sub lethal exposure to heavy metals, pesticides or insecticides may affect the olfactory processing.
--Thus if there is something in the water that effects the "nose" of the fish there could be some disruption in the processing portion of the brain.
--It would however seem more probable that there could be some longer term effects on juvenile fish in the river below the spill site (if undesirable chemicals or heavy metals persist)... again due to effect on the nose of the fish.
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Dp a google and then tell me the same thing - tailings pond breaches rarely , if ever turn out well.
How many have involved a deep fjord lake like Quesnel? How does the water chemistry of a deep fjord lake Quesnel compare to those other places? The only things we know for sure are the results on water sampling to date.
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--I agree that the primary Olfactory triggers appear to be organic compounds.
--Fancy explanation of smell memory that fish use in part to navigate to their natal stream.
--It has been shown in the lab that Sub lethal exposure to heavy metals, pesticides or insecticides may affect the olfactory processing.
--Thus if there is something in the water that effects the "nose" of the fish there could be some disruption in the processing portion of the brain.
--It would however seem more probable that there could be some longer term effects on juvenile fish in the river below the spill site (if undesirable chemicals or heavy metals persist)... again due to effect on the nose of the fish.
My initial thought is that it would depend on the pH of the water. Metals become more soluble and can be more toxic at lower pH. Quesnel Lake samples showed a pH of 7.6 (pHs less than 7 are acidic and pHs greater than 7 are alkaline). The pH of Quesnel lake ranges between 7.3 and 7.6 based on previous inventories (BC government online database). Not saying that all is good, but in my opinion I believe the pH of the lake will play some role in this.
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Maybe the oily film on Quesnel Lake discovered by Alexandra Morton will impact the olfactory sense of migrating salmon? Of course it has to be from the tailings pond breach near Polley Lake. When in doubt it is best blog about it, call it a mystery and passively imply damage from the breach before testing. What else would create a rainbow-looking, oily film on the surface of a lake with hundreds of boaters each year including private cabins (with septic systems) and a few resorts? It seems similar to the other mystery films I have noticed on Shuswap Lake and Mara Lake, but perhaps she has made a new discovery. Hmmm...how did Alexandra Morton get around Quesnel Lake anyway? By canoe? Back-stroke? Or for some of her followers - walking on water? I think it was a boat that was fueled by hydrocarbons. Come to think of it while she is on her crusade, hot on the trail or those European salmon farm viruses, I believe she uses a boat on the ocean that runs on hydrocarbons.
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"My initial thought is that it would depend on the pH of the water. Metals become more soluble and can be more toxic at lower pH. Quesnel Lake samples showed a pH of 7.6 (pHs less than 7 are acidic and pHs greater than 7 are alkaline). The pH of Quesnel lake ranges between 7.3 and 7.6 based on previous inventories (BC government online database). Not saying that all is good, but in my opinion I believe the pH of the lake will play some role in this."
--I also believe this to be the case..only thing I could find indicated the effect of toxins on olfactory system by Scholz et al 2000 indicated significant effects at 10 degrees C and PH 7.2 on Coho
--Also Moore 1994.. exposure to water less than 6.0 PH linked to impaired olfactory processing.
--PH of Quesnel lake hopefully as you say may reduce or even negate significant influence.
-- This is why we need more little guys/gals in lab coats doing research. They don't get much glory and for the most part it is very difficult to get long term funding required for these projects. Often these projects are one of's with small populations thus are difficult to get statistical significance ... so the answer is usually tends to indicate rather than we know for sure.
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--I see Dr. Walters has changed his tune somewhat... from being Confident there will be no appreciable effect on the current sockeye run to crossing his fingers there will be no effect.
--Weather (not in our control that I am aware of) may (not will...may) cause mixing of some of the now thermal layered toxins.
--In many instances (myself included) we just have to wait and see what actually happens now and in the longer term.
--We need to keep pressure on to continue with monitoring and exploring potential issues that may be within our control as well as pursue informed speculation on what may occur.
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--I see Dr. Walters has changed his tune somewhat... from being Confident there will be no appreciable effect on the current sockeye run to crossing his fingers there will be no effect.
--Weather (not in our control that I am aware of) may (not will...may) cause mixing of some of the now thermal layered toxins.
--In many instances (myself included) we just have to wait and see what actually happens now and in the longer term.
--We need to keep pressure on to continue with monitoring and exploring potential issues that may be within our control as well as pursue informed speculation on what may occur.
Well, the positive thing is that Sockeye are showing up in the area like the Horsefly River. I believe the water quality results to date are reliable, but there are growing concerns for the potential long term impacts to juvenile salmonid rearing in the lake and how these contaminants will impact the food chain. The public, especially those residents that live on the lake, are understandably concerned and want timely answers and cures (this is what Alexandra Morton is preaching now), but things like this are not going to be investigated in a few days and with instant solutions. We are talking about a very long term project involving multi governmental agencies, university academia, First Nations, private consultants, and mine company personnel.
The potential long term impacts that are being discussed by many now are not going to be determined in a few days; instead we should be looking at years. We can't be just concerned with this brood year, but subsequent brood years that follow so how are we going to have answers in a few days? Its not just Sockeye, but also Chinook, Coho, Pink and non-anadromous species. Even the wildlife that feed on them. Morton should go back to sampling Sockeye that have lamprey wounds. What can be done in a shorter time frame is have a very comprehensive, independent review of this incident which explores not only the event that happened, but all the factors that potentially contributed to it so we do not revisit this again somewhere else in BC. This is where immediate pressure should be focused on.
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The blue sheen found in areas of Quesnel Lake was recently sampled by Ministry of Environment staff with the results analyzed by professionals who deal with water quality. Somehow this was not good enough for Ms. Morton (no education or formal training in water quality analysis) who is eager to have her own samples of the sheen sampled by an independent lab. Somehow ALS is not independent enough.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/aug22/Memo-Blue-Sheen-on-Quesnel-Lk-Water-Quality-Aug12.pdf
Oh...Alex forgot to mention the raw lab results that were made public....
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/aug12/L1503975_COA.pdf
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The blue sheen found in areas of Quesnel Lake was recently sampled by Ministry of Environment staff with the results analyzed by professionals who deal with water quality. Somehow this was not good enough for Ms. Morton (no education or formal training in water quality analysis) who is eager to have her own samples of the sheen sampled by an independent lab. Somehow ALS is not independent enough.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/aug22/Memo-Blue-Sheen-on-Quesnel-Lk-Water-Quality-Aug12.pdf
Oh...Alex forgot to mention the raw lab results that were made public....
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/aug12/L1503975_COA.pdf
Sure Steve - the blue sheen is just a trick of the early fall sunlight......The positive thing??????
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/polish_a_turd_postcard_zps2e411f82.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/polish_a_turd_postcard_zps2e411f82.jpg.html)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI
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Wow ,
Here we are again folks government funded opinions on how this disaster is "not so bad"
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Well, skeptics can feel free to take their own samples from the lake and choose what lab they want to analyze them if they do not trust the results to date. Fund their own opinions basically if they don't like what they are getting from government. Other than the excluded zone designated by the Interior Health Authority the lake is free for people like Morton to take as many water samples as they want. All the water quality results to date (including the raw sample data and sampling sites) have been made available for the public online:
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/mount-polley/
In addition, results are shared with local First Nations, the First Nations Health Authority (FNHA), Interior Health and the Cariboo Regional District. The FNHA has been actively involved in this process with both water and fish:
http://www.fnha.ca/about/news-and-events/news/mount-polley-mine-communiques-and-press-releases
Those results are being shared with government agencies and Interior Health. The FNHA is working with an independent professional risk assessor to help First Nations with interpreting this data and share results to other groups.
In regards to this blue sheen, the ministry came to the best conclusion at the time based on observations and lab results; however, they didn't say that no more samples of this nature would be taken. Sample kits have been provided to First Nations and UNBC Research Centre staff. UNBC is going to be actively involved in research to help understand the impacts (immediate and long term):
http://www.unbc.ca/quesnel-river-research-centre
On the other hand, Morton has collected water samples in the area including similar samples of this blue sheen around the same time, but we haven't seen the results (including the raw data) or even the locations on the lake where sampling occurred. This is in stark contrast to disclosure the ministry and the First Nations Health Authority has displayed by posting this information online for the public. Despite this lack of disclosure (and the obvious lack of education and experience with water quality), Morton continues to make claims of this blue sheen being the result of the breach which to date is not backed up by any evidence. Sound familiar? If she has found something different about this sheen then she should share the results (including the raw data) and stop speculating.
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It looks like we have found out what Doc Morton is good at,,,,"speculating". I do enjoy reading all your posts Steve. You have made me think outside of the box many times since I joined FWR. :)
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Its good that all these different people are getting samples and making independant conclusions ,it brings up discussion and keeps everyone honest.
Lots of whitewash,spin and outright misinformation when it comes to environmental sampling and the government reporting.
Clearly this disaster is going to effect the ecology of the water, we wont know the long term effects obviously for the long term .Hopefully it doesnt affect the salmon stocks of the future which spawn and reproduce in these waters.
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Have you actually looked at the links I posted and read the information provided? Are you inferring that the current environmental sampling and government reporting on this incident is a "whitewash", "spin", and "outright misinformation"? Are you challenging the water quality results collected to date because you believe they are a "whitewash", "spin" and "outright misinformation"? If so, what basis do you have for this conclusion?
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Yes I am challenging them .
They show a bunch of lab results that suggest that what the substance is not a petrochemical but they dont actually have analysis of what the substance is,they stop short of identifying it ,just to say that biologist poked with a stick and came to the conclusion that it was organic.To me thats clearly whitewashing the issue.
This is not a spill from oil sands which would show a petrochemical sheen ,Its acid rock drainage and heavy metal leftovers,which would maybe even not show up on the surface of the water but may coat the bottom of the lake.
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I am not saying it is not good to be suspicious, but many times people do not look for the simplest explanation first; instead, it has to be something mysterious because obviously no one like Morton can figure it out. The people involved with the analysis are experts in water quality. Do you have education and training in water quality? It is probably not the first time they have encountered something similar.
The "poking with a stick" is getting interpreted as some archaic method whereas in actual fact some of the simplest field tests do not have to be done using thousands of dollars of equipment, but experience does help. By doing this simple field test, it would determine if the sheen was petroleum or animal/plant decomposition. Based on their experience they then analyzed the sample for tannis and lignins which are components of plants and trees. The samples were taken to a private lab (ALS) for analysis. The testing determined that tannis and ligins were present. If MOE suspected something else they likely would have had the lab test for it. In addition, numerous water samples have already been taken from Quesnel Lake testing for a variety of parameters. Here is just a some of the many tests that have already been done to date:
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/mount-polley/pdf/20140904/Results-legal-August-20-DW.pdf
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/mount-polley/pdf/20140904/Results-legal-August-20-AL.pdf
As Bob pointed out in the other thread, perhaps the MOE employees doing the sampling were going about it the right way:
http://www.algomapublichealth.com/userfiles/file/Iron%20Bacteria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf
It's not as if they are hiding something because...again...others are free to go take as many samples of the lake water as they like. In addition, others can use whatever lab they want to use if they believe lab technicians are getting paid to lie about the results. Think about it for a bit...if it was something mysterious and dangerous don't you think people like Morton would have said something by now considering she took her samples around the same time? If it's something dangerous then being the responsible biologist Morton is I am sure she would have expedited the analysis of these samples and would have informed the people she claims to defend. MOE posted the raw lab results for the public to see along with their written analysis. MOE has even distributed sampling kits to First Nations and UNBC if they find this sheen again and want to take samples. So, I don't see where you are coming from when you say this is a whitewash. In my opinion, the whitewash is being done by individuals who are not backing up their conclusions of something mysterious with evidence. Speculation is being masqueraded as fact which is misinformation.
Your conclusion is that its acid rock drainage and heavy metals leftovers, which may not show up on the surface of the water but may coat the bottom of the lake. If the tailings were alkaline (pH 8.5) what evidence leads you to believe that this sheen is acid rock drainage and heavy metals leftover?
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If we are relying on scientists to determine if the water is safe to drink and if the fish are safe to live , then it should be quite a comprehensive test ,the "poking with a stick 'is the preliminary test.It should be tested to see what exactly it is ,we are being led to believe that this is a naturally occurring bacteria that was there before.
The fact that they observe thats its not petrochemical,but it has these components of organic material does nothing to identifiy the offending compounds.
If you are inferring that the sheen,of which is minimal ,is not a result of the spill then you are the one spreading the misinformation .
As for people taking water samples,sure they are thorough taking the samples its just the control of information and results that I disagree with.Keep in mind that the government is in the mining business.
If you look at the data you see that the level of copper contamination is 10 times that of what it should be,especiallly at several depths which is in line with what would happen to this compound if its suspended in water .Of course none of it will float on the surface ,any 1st year science student knows that.To me these are the dangerous and deadly compounds that will contaminate the water for fish and people alike.
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"we are being led to believe that this is a naturally occurring bacteria that was there before"
Actually, you are being led to believe it isn't a naturally occurring bacteria but instead that it is some toxic chemical mix that will thoroughly and completely destroy the environment and all the creatures in it. Problem is that the accusation is completely unsubstantiated, comes from a source that has a real credibility problem in the scientific community, and that wants to convince you to dip into your pocket to support her ongoing escapades, or perhaps more accurately, crusades.
The testing is in competent hands and will take the time it takes to be done thoroughly and properly in spite of the bleatings of Ms. Morton.
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--naturally occurring isn't always good.
--lets say for argument's sake that this isn't some toxic chemical waste from the mine...preliminary testing seems to support this assumption.
--if this has not occurred in the area before (I don't know that)... then the next avenue of investigation would be... was this naturally occurring bacteria pushed into the lake by the force created by the breach in the dam.
--naturally occurring... spread out and locked into organic material that has now been shoved into the lake in a concentration that has made obvious noteable changes.
--I am not doubting the probability that this has been caused by organic material from the area. When checking logging in wet belt areas I have seen on several occasions blue/green sheen that appeared on standing water and appeared to be caused by a fuel leak... of course we checked it and in most cases found that it was not.
--Having all that organic material flushed into the lake in a concentrated area if it is not dispersed by wind or water could reduce oxygen availability or cause algae blooms. Low oxygen and algae bloom areas have been problematic in other water bodies for schooling fish such as kokanee... a sockeye cousin. On the we may be OK side this is later in the season....cooler water temps...less sunlight thus the "Organic anomaly" may go away before it becomes an issue for fish.
-- And yes you could say that a "naturally occurring slide" could produce similar results. That doesn't mean we should accept it as OK.
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I understand that it isn't necessarily harmless but starting from the unsubstantiated position that it is toxic and that the labs are disembling about their findings because of a conspiracy between government and the mining industry is both nonsense and textbook Morton.
I've no doubt partisan government and Imperial would like this to go away but there are enough competent non-partisan people monitoring the situation that problems aren't going to be swept under the rug. All the what-ifs are nothing but speculation about what may or may not occur; time and testing will provide the answers. Attacking the testing because it isn't providing the answers one says it should does nothing to establish the testing is flawed or establish any credibility for a thesis.
Fear mongering doesn't contribute to solving the problem; in this case it accomplishes nothing more than keeping Morton's name in the news and bolstering her own sense of relevance. As with Henny Penny, there are those who are quite willing to follow along, but it isn't a constructive exercise and won't change any of the facts on the ground.
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--to be clear I do not have any doubt in the competence of the Lab being used by government or the staff/contractors collecting the samples.
--I don't have much confidence in those who think they can scoop up a sample in a coffee cup, send it to a lab and expect any kind of meaningful result. In fact it can be harmful by sidetracking and causing delay of the investigation.
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I don't mean to be pointing a finger at you and edited a poor choice of word to reflect that.
There is, however, a certain element for whom everything becomes a conspiracy and who believe it is only incompetence which keeps the experts from agreeing with that thesis. Unfortunately, they are more obstacle than assistance in actually defining and dealing with the problems that result from something like this dam failure and it is that element my comments are addressed to.
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If we are relying on scientists to determine if the water is safe to drink and if the fish are safe to live , then it should be quite a comprehensive test ,the "poking with a stick 'is the preliminary test.It should be tested to see what exactly it is ,we are being led to believe that this is a naturally occurring bacteria that was there before.
The fact that they observe thats its not petrochemical,but it has these components of organic material does nothing to identifiy the offending compounds.
If you are inferring that the sheen,of which is minimal ,is not a result of the spill then you are the one spreading the misinformation .
As for people taking water samples,sure they are thorough taking the samples its just the control of information and results that I disagree with.Keep in mind that the government is in the mining business.
If you look at the data you see that the level of copper contamination is 10 times that of what it should be,especiallly at several depths which is in line with what would happen to this compound if its suspended in water .Of course none of it will float on the surface ,any 1st year science student knows that.To me these are the dangerous and deadly compounds that will contaminate the water for fish and people alike.
By doing the test they did in the field they were able to narrow it down to what they felt it was. It was either petroleum or plant/animal decomposition. It's floating on the surface and is not mixing with the water (not soluble in water). Based on their experience they then had the sample analyzed for the presence of tannins and lignins which are components to look for if it's decomposition of plants and trees. Following this field test, lab results confirmed the presence of tannins and lignins. If they really thought it was something mysterious they would have tested for it. Absolon said it best: Attacking the testing because it isn't providing the answers one says it should does nothing to establish the testing is flawed or establish any credibility for a thesis..
You are expecting some extensive comprehensive test or else the results are flawed.....and perhaps those techniques are used when applicable, but when they are not applicable it doesn't mean that the situation is not treated as seriously. Those are the decisions made by professionals that deal with water quality. You're not an expert in that field yet you have come to the conclusion that a comprehensive test is warranted. You are basically insinuating they do not know how to do their jobs but in actual fact you have no idea what the job entails.
Again, MOE is not closing the book on this. If more of this sheen can be found then more samples can be taken. This not limited to government staff as First Nations and UNBC have been provided kits to conduct this sampling. Morton, Suzuki, Staniford, or some homeless guy in Williams Lake (which can also be Staniford) can go take samples of this sheen and have it sampled at the lab of their choice. You can do this also. The evidence to date does not support that this sheen is from the spill. On the other hand, you are making unsubstantiated claims that this is the result of the spill, but have not provided any evidence that supports that opinion - none. That is misinformation.
You are now latching onto the copper concentrations from the water sampling results. While on that track, MOE has discussed the presence of copper in the samples:
It should be noted that the much lower concentrations of the dissolved form of copper as compared to the very high level of total copper concentrations indicates that the total levels are associated with particulates and may not be as bioavailable (i.e. available for uptake by aquatic life). Exceedances of acute guidelines such as copper indicate the potential for impact to aquatic life dependent upon the magnitude, duration and frequency of the exposure. - Deborah Epps, M.Sc., R.P. Bio.; Provincial Water Quality Section Head; Ministry of Environment
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/mount-polley/pdf/20140904/Memo-Quesnel-Lk-Water-Quality-Aug20-AL.pdf
I am not sure if you are attempting to make a connection between the sheen and the spill in this instance, but if you are you have not provided any evidence that says that the two are related. The confusing thing is that in one sentence you say that this is in line with what would happen if it's suspended in water, but then in the next sentence you say that "of course none of it will float". The other thing you need to keep in mind is that copper is an element - not a compound.....as any 1st year science student would know.
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I am not questioning the integrity of the people taking the samples and doing the testing, I just think that we arent getting all the info from this test.That has more to do with politics than science and competence .
Why are they not confirming the identity of this sheen rather than just saying thats it is probably plant based material, still believe they could test to identify.When is a comprehensive test not warranted ,this is the most serious case where one should be done.
Not a fan of the aforementioned crusader, I am not the one who keeps bringing up her name and have never read her material,I will make my own conclusions.
Not trying to connect the copper concentrations and the sheen, as we dont know what the sheen is still, its only been said that it could be organic material.
Of course its mentioned by Moe and as they have said and I have said too, we wont know the effects of this copper and chemical cocktail for a while dependant on exposure, the heavy metals being most harmful to fish.
Hope this never happens or the risk will be minimal .
The copper tailings that have been deposited on the bottom of the lake are mixed with other elements and chemicals making them compounds ,copper in its pure form is an element.
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I am not questioning the integrity of the people taking the samples and doing the testing, I just think that we arent getting all the info from this test.That has more to do with politics than science and competence .
Well the beauty of this is that politics shouldn't get in the way of these results because anyone can go take samples from the lake themselves or hire a consultant to do it and have them sampled at the lab of their choice. They can then post them on their blog or take them to the media.
Not a fan of the aforementioned crusader, I am not the one who keeps bringing up her name and have never read her material,I will make my own conclusions.
I only mention Morton as an example of someone who has been critical of the sampling of this sheen (and pretty much second guessing people qualified to do this work) yet has provided no results to back up her speculation after taking sample already. It wasn't meant to call you a Morton fanatic.
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Preliminary results of fish samples analyzed:
http://www.fnha.ca/about/news-and-events/news/mount-polley-mine-communique-7
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And they're STILL pumping crap.....
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mount-polley-b-c-orders-mine-to-stop-discharging-effluent-1.2761188
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You had the feeling that the government was not going to make the mine clean this mess up ,instead just monitor it to see what the effluent will do to Quesnel lake.
Its time for the someone to take serious action so this disaster is taken more seriously ,re: a cleanup
Drawing a comparison to the CN rail deraliment in the Cheakamus river, CN was fined and made to rebuilt all fish stocks.
Fortunately ,I guess, that was one chemical that because of river flow ,it was was downriver within 1-2 days.
Of course it wiped out everything in its path.
These fish stocks have since returned
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move along folks..... nothing to see here, right Christy !!! or crusty ?
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Investigation into Mt Polley tailings breach:
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/mount-polley/pdf/20140919/RAPP-Handout-4Sept2014.pdf
Summary of MOE water sampling techniques:
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/mount-polley/pdf/20140919/MoE-WQ-Sampling-Techniques-Summary.pdf
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Thanks for the implication of government cleanup actions.
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Thanks for the implication of government cleanup actions.
The links were not provided to imply "government cleanup actions". One refers to the ongoing investigation while the other refers to the sampling techniques used to monitor the lake. However, any planned clean-up or remediation work can't really occur before the scope of the situation is monitored. Can't really start scooping up stuff (that's assuming that it's possible) without some idea what you are scooping up and whether it is toxic or not.
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Why do all that testing? Just net Polley lake, if they do not find many fish then the stuff is toxic. After all they have stocked that lake for years, so they know the quantity of fish put in there. Testing a couple of kilometers from the event is going to give a lot of lower readings.
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Why do all that testing? Just net Polley lake, if they do not find many fish then the stuff is toxic. After all they have stocked that lake for years, so they know the quantity of fish put in there. Testing a couple of kilometers from the event is going to give a lot of lower readings.
The testing is necessary because its not certain of the bioavailability of the metals in the water and their potential impact to various life stages of fish in Quesnel Lake. As for testing a couple of kilometers from the event....well that's kind of important also especially if you are talking about people's drinking water and potential impacts to aquatic life. First Nation groups wanted reassurances that the salmon they were harvesting were safe to eat. Need to know the extent of potential impact given the proximity of the incident to the Quesnel River which in turn flows into Fraser River - not just ground zero.
Although not directly from Polley Lake, the Ministry of Environment has already done Rainbow Trout toxicity tests from water at Quesnel Lake at the mouth of Hazeltine Creek.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/aug14/moe-expan-memo-Aug56-rainbow-trout-Toxicity-Tests-QL%20at-Hazeltine.pdf
Fish tissue samples were also taken from Quesnel Lake and Polley Lake. Not a huge sample size from one of the surveys, but think this is just the beginning of what is going to be longer term monitoring.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/aug22/Fish-Deep-Water-Testing_Aug_22_14.pdf
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/pdf/aug22/Memo-Fish-Tissue-Quality-Aug8.pdf
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/eemp/incidents/2014/mount-polley/pdf/20140910/Memo-Fish-Tissue-Quality-Aug9-10.pdf
Are you sure that Polley Lake is stocked? It's not coming up as a stocked lake in the FFSBC database. I used to fish that lake back in the late 80s. I believe it is supported by natural recruitment. Wasn't hard to catch fish out of that lake.
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http://www.unbc.ca/releases/35250/unbc-releases-initial-findings-tailings-pond-breach
--latest update of on going research
--It is important to keep pressure on Government. One would think this is important enough to have some money dumped into additional research costs rather than take away money from other current Quesnel lake research projects.
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Perhaps gives you an idea of how any oil spills in BC will be handled by our gov'ts. If UNBC hadn't been already doing research, we might only know the party line.
That plume of very fine sediment spreading out in the lake and into the river is disturbing and you have to wonder how it will affect the gills of all the juvenile sockeye salmon rearing in the lake and vertically migrating through it to feed on surface plankton, or the Chinook eggs incubating in the river gravels.
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--I guess the response time to the Russian vessel..gives us an indications of how the Best in the World work.
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Rehabilitation and Restoration Phase
Imperial has assembled a group of experts with global experience to carry out a program of rehabilitation and restoration in the areas affected by the breach.
•Hazeltine Creek: The Gavin Lake Road and Ditch Road bridges over Hazeltine Creek have both been repaired. Rehabilitation of Hazeltine Creek will include reconstruction of the channel, and restoration of riparian habitat along the creek banks. Construction of a set of sedimentation ponds has commenced in the lower reaches of Hazeltine Creek to remove suspended solids from the water before it enters into Quesnel Lake. A revegetation program will be implemented to reestablish a productive ecosystem, and for water management in order to control sedimentation. An initial seeding of fast germinating grasses was completed on all exposed areas in Hazeltine Creek. The rehabilitation will include the establishment of spawning and rearing habitat for fish.
•Polley Lake: The outlet of Polley Lake will also be restored to reconnect Polley Lake to Hazeltine Creek. This will be completed by building a new channel with consideration for access by fish from Polley Lake to spawn in the upper reaches of Hazeltine Creek.
--Quote from the Caboodle...williams lk news
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Update on Mount Polley dam collapse:
http://wcel.org/resources/environmental-law-alert/sign-mount-polley-petition-demand-accountability?utm_source=LEB
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Huh?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mount-polley-mine-waste-water-quesnel-lake-1.4074233