Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: chris gadsden on December 07, 2012, 01:45:25 PM
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http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2012/12/letter-to-director-general-of-oie.html
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Great initiative by Alex....
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http://salmonfarmscience.com/2012/12/07/if-isa-was-here-our-fish-would-be-dead/ (http://salmonfarmscience.com/2012/12/07/if-isa-was-here-our-fish-would-be-dead/)
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Hello
Last December, my lawyer Greg McDade made a prediction that was recorded in the Cohen Commission testimony - that within 12 months the federal government would attempt to strip the lab I am using to test for ISA virus of its international status.
He was right. They are trying.
In response I went back to the wealth of information Justice Cohen and his Counsel Brock Martland gave us on ISA virus in BC and laid out what is known to the Director General of the Organization of International Epizootics (OIE).
7 labs have detected ISA virus in BC, 4 of them are federal government labs, whose results have been hidden, muzzled or misrepresented in government communications
Only 1 lab says 100% of his tests have been negative - Dr. Gary Marty, Provincial farm fish audit lab. His lab is now an outlier.
1 lab is non-government and thus harder to muzzle - that is the one the CFIA has gone after.
Last spring government drafted Bill 37 that would have made this research punishable by 2 years in jail.
The CFIA is clearly under pressure too.
The workers in the fish farm industry must feel uncertain about their future as does everyone depending on the wild fish economy. This virus is well known to damage their industry, which is already on its knees running out of food and customers.
I am asking the Director General of the OIE to cast an international eye on what is happening in BC, in hopes that we will be able to finish this work without escalating harassment.
Here is my letter to Dr. Bernard Vallat, DG of the OIE http://alexandramorton.typepad.com
I could really use your help. Everyone needs to speak up, there is a petition on the site above. Share widely so people know they can help.
If you want to know the extent of what is going on please read my blog. This is sheer nonsense, in a high-stakes game that everyone looses; the shareholders, trade partners, fish farm workers, the wild salmon economy, politicians the wild salmon of the North Pacific and everyone that comes after us.
Alexandra Morton
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Her letter to the Director General of the OIE was poorly written. For instance, she even repeated the same paragraph over again. It was basically one long rant with carefully selected quotes and little context – just like her blog posts. She starts out focused in her letter then goes sideways and basically tries to rehash the Cohen Inquiry testimony. It was not surprising that she seemed to steer clear of Justice Cohen’s findings in the Final Report and came up with her own interpretation. One only needs to read the Cohen Report to see that she has gone rogue again. Cohen makes specific reference to ISAV and ISA in the final report. Cohen was very objective and presents a fair representation of our current knowledge with regards to the science of ISAV and ISA as it applies to our coast. The good thing is that the Cohen Final Report is a public document so you and I can see it for ourselves and do not have to rely on Ms Morton’s version of events. It is interesting that Ms Morton refers to those farmed Chinook Salmon that Dr. Miller tested. What Ms Morton does not reveal is that the ISAV or ISA-like virus signature was as prevalent in healthy farmed Chinook as it was in unhealthy farmed Chinook.
If anti-fish farm activists like Ms Morton are concerned about having good, defensible results from a worldwide approved body which attempts to provide “high quality disease diagnostic services” then they should have no problem with this audit and any corrective measures that are deemed necessary by the OIE. Let the OIE do their job. What’s more important? Good, scientifically defensible results which further our knowledge about diseases or poor results that are not done to the “highest technical and operational standards” which mislead and confuse the general public about what diseases (or viruses) are there? If you or I were a biologist at a lab that was doing similar testing and it was determined (through an audit) that there were a series of weaknesses in the lab’s protocols and procedures wouldn’t you want to know about it and have it fixed to protect your reputation?
It is surprising why activists like Ms Morton do not seem to be concerned about weaknesses found at the AVC lab by the OIE. In fact, I have not heard of one fish farm activist concerned about the weaknesses found by the OIE audit. Instead, they seem more focused at trying to find someone else to blame. If Ms Morton is so concerned about getting to the bottom of this “salmon flu mystery” then she should take more of an interest in these deficiencies rather than trying to play politics herself. For instance, I wonder why she did not pose some questions to the Director General of the OIE regarding the nature of these deficiencies found at the AVC lab during the OIE audit. Ms Morton forgets that the audit was conducted by the OIE – not the CFIA.
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Her letter to the Director General of the OIE was poorly written........
Kinda like your posts Steve..... But normally we stick to commenting on the content and not the composition.
Morton is apparently doing a pretty effective job, as she is getting a lot of attention from feedlot proponents such as yourself. Feel free to write a letter to the Director General of the OIE yourself, and post it here so we can critique it for you..... ;D
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Kinda like your posts Steve..... But normally we stick to commenting on the content and not the composition.
Morton is apparently doing a pretty effective job, as she is getting a lot of attention from feedlot proponents such as yourself. Feel free to write a letter to the Director General of the OIE yourself, and post it here so we can critique it for you..... ;D
I agree, another poorly written missive by Morton who even had the gall to sign it Dr.
Shuswapsteve knows more about this subject than any current poster on FWR so I ask those reading – who do you believe, him or her?
What will you and the rest of the Morton followers do when this latest fear mongering attempt fails?? Virtually all her past predictions and statements have been proven wrong or discredited ... now she owes thousands of dollars to a lab that is for the moment found lacking in it’s protocols.
Of course ISAv is here, probably has been since the millions of Atlantics were released into BC waters, including the Harrison River, early this century. But sadly for Morton it does not appear to be particularly deadly to anything with fins.
Perhaps you should offer to proof read her stuff af – you could not do any worse.
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Kinda like your posts Steve..... But normally we stick to commenting on the content and not the composition.
Morton is apparently doing a pretty effective job, as she is getting a lot of attention from feedlot proponents such as yourself. Feel free to write a letter to the Director General of the OIE yourself, and post it here so we can critique it for you..... ;D
The "Pick A Part Gang' is at it again as usual. ::)
They are a bit like the Grinch that stole Christmas. :o
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The "Pick A Part Gang' is at it again as usual. ::)
They are a bit like the Grinch that stole Christmas. :o
I suggest if you don`t want Morton's rants to be picked apart, don`t post them ;)
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Shuswapsteve knows more about this subject than any current poster on FWR ............
The saying goes that a little knowledge is dangerous..... would it be safe to say that a lot of knowledge is a lot more dangerous?? ;)
The problem with SS is his bias (he earns his living in the feedlot business). Many of us are quite a lot more hesitant in jumping on his band wagon and singing his praises like you are....
I have a lot more confidence in the information I receive from someone like Morton who has no financial interest in the feedlot business.
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:D
The "Pick A Part Gang' is at it again as usual. ::)
They are a bit like the Grinch that stole Christmas. :o
I notice that as soon as a bit of truth about the dangers of ocean feedlots hits the screen, the feedlot boys come out in full force to try and hide it. That is rather "grinchy" isn't it? :D
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The problem with SS is his bias (he earns his living in the feedlot business). Many of us are quite a lot more hesitant in jumping on his band wagon and singing his praises like you are....
I have a lot more confidence in the information I receive from someone like Morton who has no financial interest in the feedlot business.
LMAO!!! you can't be serious ...are you??
Your'e making this too easy af ???
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The problem with SS is his bias (he earns his living in the feedlot business). Many of us are quite a lot more hesitant in jumping on his band wagon and singing his praises like you are....
I have a lot more confidence in the information I receive from someone like Morton who has no financial interest in the feedlot business.
You have your bias, he has his, everyone has their own whether they want to or not.
I didn't have anything to gain in the industry, and I won't ever (not my cup of tea). You still dis-credited everything I said in past debates, because it was taught to me by "pro-farmers" (who I might add also have nothing to gain from fish-farming, they are comfortable university profs). Are you going to dis-credit every single piece of scientific and REAL FACTUAL evidence every time it is presented to you, just because it is from a different point of view?
And please don't tell me you're serious...
What do you think she does for her job? I'm pretty sure she has financial interest in proving them wrong... same thing as someone who has gain in the industry.
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Kinda like your posts Steve..... But normally we stick to commenting on the content and not the composition.
Morton is apparently doing a pretty effective job, as she is getting a lot of attention from feedlot proponents such as yourself. Feel free to write a letter to the Director General of the OIE yourself, and post it here so we can critique it for you..... ;D
Actually, I commented on the content and the composition. Posting on an internet forum is one thing, but writing a letter to a professional organization like the OIE is another. It is a slightly difference audience. My point is that if Honorary “Dr” Morton wants to be taken seriously by someone like Dr. Vallet then she should try to keep her letters more concise and to the point. She should avoid writing a letter the same way she would post on her blog. Basically, she should have just sent Dr. Vallet the link to her blog post. It would help her credibility if she took the time to edit the letter before sending it.
Morton’s supporters see her as effective; however, preaching to the same followers daily hardly equates to doing an effective job. I have no particular reason to write a letter to the Director General of the OIE, but if I did it would be much better than Ms Morton’s attempt. Perhaps you should do what Ms Morton clearly wants to avoid: Write the Director General of the OIE to find out more about the deficiencies found at the AVC lab during the OIE audit.
The saying goes that a little knowledge is dangerous..... would it be safe to say that a lot of knowledge is a lot more dangerous??
The problem with SS is his bias (he earns his living in the feedlot business). Many of us are quite a lot more hesitant in jumping on his band wagon and singing his praises like you are....
I have a lot more confidence in the information I receive from someone like Morton who has no financial interest in the feedlot business.
I can see why you would find knowledge dangerous if it is completely foreign to you in the first place. In this respect you are likely going to get more out of individuals like Ms Morton who specifically caters to your desire to be misinformed, so I won't lose any sleep if you are not on my bandwagon.
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LMAO!!! you can't be serious ...are you??
Your'e making this too easy af ???
I couldn’t care less if AF thinks I earn a living in the fish farm industry. I just laugh it off now because it is so silly. You know the drill, Dave. If someone has the opposite opinion of an anti-fish farm activist they must be employed by the fish farm industry.
I agree that ISAv or something that looks like it is here, but it is probably the non-virulent form which has been here for many, many years. Experts at the Cohen Inquiry were uncertain on the characterization of this, so I think it is premature to start blaming salmon farms until we learn more about it which includes more monitoring. One thing is certain....ISA is deadly to Atlantic Salmon. Like Chile, we would see thousands of dead Atlantic Salmon. Dr. Nylund even said that if ISA was present here we will likely see if first on the farms. Second, ISA and the virus are required to be reported to the feds. IHN and IHNV require the same reporting.
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........ I won't lose any sleep if you are not on my bandwagon.
Good to know.... :)
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I am pretty sure I am the only fish farmer in the room. Just a friendly reminder.
It is studies like this:http://www.canada.com/Young+coho+shot+unique+program/7665495/story.html (http://www.canada.com/Young+coho+shot+unique+program/7665495/story.html) that will start providing some overdue information on wild salmon and disease. Hope to see more like it. I find this very interesting.
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The saying goes that a little knowledge is dangerous..... would it be safe to say that a lot of knowledge is a lot more dangerous?? ;)
The problem with SS is his bias (he earns his living in the feedlot business). Many of us are quite a lot more hesitant in jumping on his band wagon and singing his praises like you are....
I have a lot more confidence in the information I receive from someone like Morton who has no financial interest in the feedlot business.
Bahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!! Classic carl! You've crammed so much good stuff into only 3 lines! Too much knowledge is dangerous???? You're safe I guess ;D
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It is studies like this:http://www.canada.com/Young+coho+shot+unique+program/7665495/story.html (http://www.canada.com/Young+coho+shot+unique+program/7665495/story.html) that will start providing some overdue information on wild salmon and disease. Hope to see more like it. I find this very interesting.
Good stuff....but I find it a little disconcerting that a DFO hatchery has to go begging in the community to fund a trial that should be easily funded by the department. The ongoing cuts are showing.........
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I remember when that hatchery first opened its a shame it is so underfunded and run down now 650k fish is less than 1 quarter capacity. Toured it several times a year all through grade and high school
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I remember when that hatchery first opened its a shame it is so underfunded and run down now 650k fish is less than 1 quarter capacity. Toured it several times a year all through grade and high school
It was rebuilt in the past few years. Several millions of dollars invested in the facility. 650K is only the coho production, they still do many millions of Chinook, pinks etc there.
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Thought I smelled a stinking white spring in this room.but I guess it was just a fish farmer.how can you eat those discussing fish.
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Thought I smelled a stinking white spring in this room.but I guess it was just a fish farmer.how can you eat those discussing fish.
norton, I sure hope your'e going to tell us your'e a buddy of nibbs and this post was meant to be sarcastic? ;)
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Hey Guys
I see the debate continues here! If you want to pitch, you can circulate the petition to the Premier asking her not to renew anymore salmon feedlot leases http://www.change.org/petitions/premier-christy-clark-do-not-renew-salmon-farm-leases
I am curious if the farm farmers on this site know what diseases their fish have, or are they kept in the dark on this. For example, the piscine reovirus, which attacks the fish's heart muscle is coming up positive in most of the samples from the farm fish from supermarkets. Sportfishermen in Norway don't think a salmon can make it up a river with this virus. When you consider that up to 90% of Fraser sockeye are going missing in some years after they pass Mission, this should have been revealed to the Cohen Commission. Take a look at Hells Gate and think about a salmon swimming against that with a virus destroy his heart muscle. After the first results for this virus were released, the BC provincial farm fish vet, Dr. Gary Marty went on CTV admitting that 75% of the farm salmon he tested in 2010 were positive for this virus. The scientists who discovered this say it spreads like "wildfire." Guys on the salmon feedlots have told me the fish are dying of heart failure as they are seined. I really don't know what people are waiting for.
Along with the European - Salmon alphavirus, and ISA viruses, BC wild salmon are facing a whole new world and it is not good. I expect a string of abuse for posting this, but some things have to be said. Feedlots belong in quarantine. We don't let wild birds in chicken feedlots, we learned. Feedlots breed disease because there are no predators to cull the sick and animals are packed in tighter than in the natural world. I am not sure why anyone thinks salmon feedlots full of European salmon is going to be any different. I am going to keep presenting the facts, but some of you other guys out there are going to have to to step up. If everyone thinks it is OK to have these viruses pouring out into the biggest wild salmon migration route in the world along eastern Vancouver Island, my guess is it will keep on until the industry can't make a buck here any longer and the last few fish farm jobs will be gone.
The incredible thing to me is that this happens again and again around the world and no one does much about it. Perhaps it is because anyone who looks into this finds out this industry packs a nasty bite.
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Welcome to the site Alexandra! Keep up the great work!
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Well welcome aboard! I think you will find a few supporters and a few non believers here at FWR but I doubt you will receive abuse. Perhaps you could start by posting your most recent lab results, especially those involving ISAv.
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Yes! Welcome. I do hope you will stick around for a discussion. As the salmon farmer here on the site I am not a supporter of Mrs. Morton but I am interested in her participation here.
More later.
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A warm welcome Alex, to Fishing with Rod, so glad you are here and posting too. We can not thank you enough for all you have and are doing for wild salmon by bringing the awareness factor to Canada and the world about the continuing dangers fish farms are to wild salmon stocks.
I just watched the video Jeremy did of the Paddle for Wild Salmon brought back great memories that I was glad I had the opportunity to be part of.
I post the link here for those that did not have the opportunity to be part of this historic journey down the Fraser River, the life blood of sockeye and other wild Pacific salmon that we all must do more to protect now and in the future.
http://vimeo.com/27686633
Once again welcome and we hope you have time to post more here although we know you have a busy schedule in working to protect our precious wild salmon stocks from the devastating powers of fish farms that are located along British Columbia's coastline.
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Dave
As it stands right now, I would like to post results as they come in and I was doing that, but that came to an end. While I can't talk about what went down, I can promise you the results will be published.
If anyone is fishing for steelhead this winter where you can keep the fish, please let me know.
Thanks!
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For example, the piscine reovirus, which attacks the fish's heart muscle is coming up positive in most of the samples from the farm fish from supermarkets.
I understand that AM will try to keep it simple here but it is important to understand the difference between having disease and having a virus. While it has been claimed that farmed salmon are showing signs of disease from PRV it simply may not be the case. The same goes for ISA. For example, I could have a common flue and exhibit symptoms associated with SARS, or mad cow, or even a cold. It does not mean that I have SARS or bird flue. I feel that while PRV is in our environment now AM has chosen to mislead the public by confusing the virus with the disease buy stating fish are showing signs of disease when in fact these symptoms of disease are common with other health issues. It seams to be that AM is blaming the salmon farms for the presence of PRV and ISA, that simply is not a proven fact. There are other possibility's. At this stage it really does not matter but I think the source should be looked into.
Sportfishermen in Norway don't think a salmon can make it up a river with this virus.
Biologically speaking comparing atlantics to pacific s is not very reliable. If atlantics had ISA here as it has been suggested likely for 25 or more years, why has there not been a large atlatic die off in bc since they started farming them here?
Guys on the salmon feedlots have told me the fish are dying of heart failure as they are seined.
Sound like an interesting harvest crew. I wish that in my harvest days I had a chance to stop and cut some fish for a peek inside and take some samples for the lab. It would have been a nice break from working my butt off, he he. So you are suspecting that the fish are dying from HSMI via PVR from being in a seine net based on what the harvester told you?
BC wild salmon are facing a whole new world and it is not good.
BC Salmon are facing a whole new world and have been for some time. Not just the last 30 years. More like the last 100 years and it is not good. This ISA thing is known to have been around for some time already. Is there any evidence of how long PRV has been here?
Your presentation that the salmon farms are disease infested mutation grounds fails to recognize that many MANY viruses are present in the wild with or without salmon farms. This abides to your "natural order" rule. It is natural to have an abundance of viruses in the wild. It just is the way it is. By your interpretation, pristine and natural would be a bottle of distilled water.
I am curious if the farm farmers on this site know what diseases their fish have, or are they kept in the dark on this.
I find it interesting how the anti's are always so keen on suggesting ownership of those who work on salmon farms. Perhaps if I was a janitor in a lab I would have better exposure to fish health data but anyone can get it via FOIA.
I hope we agree that much more research is due to better understand the issues around bc salmon. There are some awesome studies already underway that I anxiously await the results.
Many of your supporters always state that removing salmon farms is not the smoking gun but it is the one thing that we can actually control. The only other thing I can think of is to stop fishing the heck out of them. Yourself as a self appointed advocate for wild salmon would agree with this but you never mention it. Why not? If the salmon farms did go who or what would be you next target group to further your preferred natural order? There are so many to chose from I am curious which group you would pick. Would it be the alaska sea ranching, or our local user groups(natives, commies, sporties) that as individuals take little bits but together add up to alot. I suppose you could go after the Fraser and its tributarys and resume natural order there in order to help lower the water temps there.
Thanks for your time on this.
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So, they way I understand it is that if the OIE lowers the critieria for an area to be designated as "infected" then BC would then be designated as "infected" based on past lab results.
I assume that this would kill of the entire fish farm business in BC because their main buyer (the US) would no longer be able to purchase the Altantics from BC?
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People obviously only relate the above to farm fish but how would it effect wild fish exports. Would visitors from outside canada not be able to take fish home? What about commercial pacific caught fish?
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A couple of comments:
The OIE just changed the rules (Sept. 2012) and now includes ALL ISA virus strains.
I disagree about the difference between the disease and the virus. It is a bad idea to burden wild fish with a virus known to kill them. It's the difference between being HIV positive and having AIDS. No one wants to be HIV positive. If someone has another explanation as to how these European viruses got here, other than the 30 million Atlantic salmon eggs that have come in since 1986 lets hear the theory and see some data.
The Norwegian scientist who testified at Cohen said ISA virus is in 80-90% of Atlantic salmon. Whoever wrote the egg import certificate left out ISA virus. So when all those eggs came into BC, no one was promising there was no ISA virus. You have to ask why wouldn't it be here? As for the heart-wasting virus - no one knew what it looked like till 2010. By then it had spread to millions of Atlantic salmon in Norway and elsewhere. I think you might as well believe in the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny to think those viruses did not come into BC in Fish farm eggs.
I feel it is time to for the fish farm industry to man up and get on with containing it. Tough I know, but it is just going to get worse as more and more labs find it. The industry are not doing themselves any favours hiding this. It would only affect their market until they clean this up. Has ISA virus infected fish been shipped over the border with no one knowing it?
Yes wild salmon are affected, that is the whole problem. However, the way they deal with sickness is, a predator removes them.... end of virus. Nature cleans up dangerous pathogens very effectively. Different from a fish feedlot where the fish just keeps shedding viruses until finally it wastes away and dies. If we turn off the big sources of viruses they wild fish will have a fighting chance.
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If someone has another explanation as to how these European viruses got here, other than the 30 million Atlantic salmon eggs that have come in since 1986 lets hear the theory and see some data.
This is the first I have seen this. Pretty interesting.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salmonfarmers.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fresearch-resources%2Ftimeline_atlantics.pdf&ei=qH_GULOjD8mXigK5g4DQDA&usg=AFQjCNHM5RHUgQEo_ETlumi3Y7skL1i2Cw (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salmonfarmers.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fresearch-resources%2Ftimeline_atlantics.pdf&ei=qH_GULOjD8mXigK5g4DQDA&usg=AFQjCNHM5RHUgQEo_ETlumi3Y7skL1i2Cw)
Perhaps the virus has mutated over the years to something less than what it used to be due to the nature of the pacific environment.
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Perhaps the virus has mutated over the years to something less than what it used to be due to the nature of the pacific environment.
Hopefully your fingers were crossed when you typed that.... ::)
The alternative theory is that the virus is mutating to something that will be very dangerous to the Pacific salmon.
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The alternative theory is that the virus is mutating to something that will be very dangerous to the Pacific salmon.
Well we sure have been lucky then for the last 137 years doncha think? Of course you think that. lol
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Hopefully your fingers were crossed when you typed that.... ::)
The alternative theory is that the virus is mutating to something that will be very dangerous to the Pacific salmon.
Sure, just like IHN and IPN could have ...but have not.
I for one am very glad you are contibuting to this discussion Ms. Morton and expect you will receive some hard questions when people are aware you are answering our concerns here on this site.
You asked about the possibility of steelhead samples this winter - please explain why, what you are sampling for, and what do the sampling protocols entail.
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Most of the people here are steelhead fishermen, and fish for steelhead on the vedder/chilliwack system. You can keep hatchery fish on the river, so they would be available for testing.
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Alex,
There is no evidence to date that the piscine reovirus (PRV) causes HSMI. It is misleading to call PRV the “heart and skeletal muscle inflamation virus”. There have been correlative studies which have found that PRV is associated with HSMI (Palacios et al 2010), but that is not proof of causation. Dr. Gary Marty did admit that 75% of farm salmon he tested were positive for PRV, but found no signs of HSMI. In these cases, the tissues were actually examined to see if there was HSMI. When you tested those “gutted” supermarket fish did you actually look at the tissues for HSMI or did you just assume that if they had PRV they must have HSMI based on correlative links? Similarly, were those Cultus Lake cutthroat that were found to be positive for PRV examined for the presence of HSMI? Actually your testing did show something – it showed the presence of PRV in healthy market sized fish is common in farmed Atlantic Salmon, but not the cause of disease in those fish.
The fact is that if 98% of those fish you purchased had a deadly virus they would not have survived to market size. HSMI tends to affect younger fish – not the market size fish you purchased from Superstore and the T&T market. This disease usually occurs 5-9 months after transfer of fish to seawater (Kontrop et al 2004). This timing has been recently described by quantifying PRV from heart samples taken at different times in the Atlantic Salmon’s life cycle – right up to slaughter. Viral loads decreased as fish approached 18 months in sea water. Researchers concluded that sequencing of positive samples did not support the hypothesis that HSMI outbreaks are caused by a particular virulent strain of PRV (Lovoll et al 2012). Additionally, right after the Palacios study, 150 Pink Salmon sampled from the Broughton area were tested for PRV. None of them had suspicious heart lesions – all tested negative for the virus (Saksida et al 2012). Clearly, the literature is not 100% supportive of PRV causing HSMI.
Simply finding PRV does not establish a HSMI diagnosis, Alex. Even researchers that found a correlative link between PRV and HSMI agree with that (Finstad et al 2012). You may disagree with the difference between a virus and a disease, but this is a fundamental concept to this whole issue. There is a difference between a virus and a disease. The two cannot be used interchangeably. Fish farm critics do this repeatedly to prove their point and they are simply incorrect. Just because you find a virus in the host does not necessarily mean that the host is suffering from a disease. Viruses are actually part of a larger equation which can involve environmental conditions, individual fitness, physiological stress, etc. These other factors are actually more important than the presence or absence of any pathogen. In addition, it is usually not just one sign that determines the presence of a disease – it could be more than two that are needed to make that determination. You need to examine the tissues – preferably someone who is fish pathologist. Lastly, the reporting of this PRV viral sequence is fairly recent (2010) and has not been officially described or seen using electron microscopy so there is very little information on the how long it has been here or where it came from. If it were to be discovered in BC first then Norway would be saying it was 99% BC strain. Merely saying that the BC and Norway strains are 99% identical does not tell us where this originated.
This does not mean that we should never look at PRV again or neglect to see if it has some other impact (i.e. fitness) or if it is in other fish species like Sockeye Salmon. The issue for me is that I agree that we need to do more about learning about fish diseases, but I do not agree with “your” approach – nor do I find you to be as transparent as you claim to be. For instance, I am still waiting to see your results from earlier this year when you claimed to found positive results of alphavirus at Lois Lake. Why are you still refusing to let the rest of us know about these results? In addition, I find your Department of Wild Salmon website to be vague and misleading - neglecting to state what “standardized protocols” you are using.
As for the contention “that viruses are pouring out into the biggest wild salmon migration route in the world along the eastern Vancouver Island” you forget to mention that Justice Cohen concluded that there is no evidence that diseases on fish farms are out of control or unusually high. However, that should not mean that we do nothing. I agree that our knowledge of the impacts of diseases on the survival of wild Salmon in BC is poor. Cohen agrees that the risks warrant further investigation and has made recommendations to address them. I agree with these recommendations, but it appears by your latest rhetoric that you are in the process of creating your own version of the Final Report by Justice Cohen – using selected quotes from testimony to back-up your claims. It is clear what Cohen says about our current knowledge of ISA and ISAV here. While I am interested in these new results you have I will wait to hear from other qualified individuals as I feel burned in the past by your annoucements.
Finally, seeing as though Dr. Gary Marty is your favourite target it is only fair to see what he had to say in response to your allegations. Here is a Bionews article that members might find interesting.
https://www.professionalbiology.com/sites/default/files/bionews/BioNews22-1-electronic.pdf
References:
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v99/n1/p7-12/
http://www.veterinaryresearch.org/content/43/1/27
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15189375?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
Palacios, G., Lovoll, M., Tengs, T., Hornig, M., Hutchison, S., Hui, J., Kongtorp, R.T., Savji, N., Bussetti, A.V., Solovyov, A., Kristoffersen, A.B., Celone, C., Street, C., Trifonov, V., Hirschberg, D.L., Rabadan, R., Egholm, M., Rimstad, E. & Lipkin, W.I. 2010. Heart and skeletal muscle inflammation of farmed salmon is associated with infection with a novel reovirus. PloS One 5(7), e11487.
Saksida, S.M., G.D. Marty, S. St-Hilaire, S.R.M. Jones, H.A. Manchester, C.L. Diamond, and J. Bidulka. 2012. Parasites and hepatic lesions among pink salmon, Oncorhynchus gorbuscha (Walbaum), during early seawater residence. J. Fish Dis. 35:137-151.
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Dave
As it stands right now, I would like to post results as they come in and I was doing that, but that came to an end. While I can't talk about what went down, I can promise you the results will be published.
If anyone is fishing for steelhead this winter where you can keep the fish, please let me know.
Thanks!
Are you indicatiing that you know the results of the OIE audit and the weaknesses found at the AVC? If you do not know, why didn't you ask the Director General of the OIE?
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...If anyone is fishing for steelhead this winter where you can keep the fish, please let me know.
Definitely WILL Be. Please enlighten! Always willing to help out...
Cheers,
Matt
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The "Pick A Part Gang' is at it again as usual. ::)
:o
"Under the pilot program the Harper government paid a media company $75,000.00 to monitor and respond to online postings about the east coast seal hunt'', reports news 1130.
http://www.beijingshots.com/2011/09/canadian-government-trolls-shills
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Curious don't be surprised to find out some of the posters on this site are on the payroll as well
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Jaysus, so you say someone would pay me to support fish farms in BC? Where do I sign up?
I hope we hear more from Ms. Morton soon as I and others have many questions regarding her agenda to rid BC of salmon farms.
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Curious, if you are concerned that my latest post is attempt to spread state sanctioned propaganda by all means check out the literature on PRV and HSMI for yourself and come back to this forum and let me know about your results. Do not take my word for it. Feel free to check out the references I provided or go find other references if you truly believe I am trying to mislead you.
This latest (desperate) attempt to brand members on this forum as paid to troll the internet to defend government policy or downplay abuse is a really silly (basically like slinging mud). It is the card anti-fish farm activists always play when they have very little to contribute. Funny how anti-fish farm activists do not like conspiracy theories about Ms Morton transporting ISA infected Atlantic Salmon, but have no problem going on some wild McCarthyism-like campaign making unsubstantiated claims regarding the motivations of people that do not share their opinion. We can all love wild salmon, but can different opinions as to what the problems are as well as what are the best solutions. Some of the people you think are these “shrills” actually work with salmon and trout as an occupation and devote most of their time and energy to helping make a difference even under challenging circumstances.
If you had ever cared to read my posts like the one that I posted right after the release of the Cohen Report you would have realized that I do not give our wonderful politicians back east a passing grade – especially after went down last month with the ”not-so” Merry Xmas present to Habitat employees. I also directed members to read Legislative Amendments (Volume 3, Chapter 3) in the Cohen Report to make up their own mind about what these changes might mean. By reading that post you would have learned that I would like to see more Fraser River Sockeye salmon research data available to the public and non-governmental scientists. In addition, you would have also saw that I would like to see the DFO website revamped after this latest inquiry to make it easier for people like you to access information. Yeah, sure sounds like I am trying to down play and cover things up…lol.
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Curious don't be surprised to find out some of the posters on this site are on the payroll as well
I would not quote a lot of the crap I post. ;D but if I was payed to play ,probably not be posting here
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http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1302712--canadian-food-inspection-agency-tangles-with-p-e-i-fish-scientist
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I wonder where Ms. Morton disappeared to?
It's clear from changes she made to her latest website the she read Steve's post though the changes don't answer any of the points he raised. I wonder why she wouldn't respond directly to him?
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I wonder where Ms. Morton disappeared to?
It's clear from changes she made to her latest website the she read Steve's post though the changes don't answer any of the points he raised. I wonder why she wouldn't respond directly to him?
Perhaps it's because she has a life outside of posting here?
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http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1302712--canadian-food-inspection-agency-tangles-with-p-e-i-fish-scientist
Thanks for post Chris..... makes you scratch your head.
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I wonder where Ms. Morton disappeared to?
It's clear from changes she made to her latest website the she read Steve's post though the changes don't answer any of the points he raised. I wonder why she wouldn't respond directly to him?
Welcome back! Yeah, she seemed happy to come aboard but suddenly lost interest when answers became difficult ;D I was particularly surprised that she asked for steelhead samples but to date has not described the protocols necessary to get them in her hands ...
as af says, she must be busy ;)
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Thanks Dave, I haven't really gone away; just haven't found the discussion too stimulating. Too much peeing on peoples legs and too little focus on the meat of the subject.
In response to Steve's question about those protocols, Morton has just announced on her newest site that people should email her for the details. I can only assume from that and her lack of response to Steve's question here that they must be top secret. One would have thought she'd be happy to share her methods in order to help validate her work. After all, that is standard practice in the scientific method.
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Welcome back! Yeah, she seemed happy to come aboard but suddenly lost interest when answers became difficult ;D I was particularly surprised that she asked for steelhead samples but to date has not described the protocols necessary to get them in her hands ...
as af says, she must be busy ;)
I too found it strange for her to post and make an appearance but not engage, as I was quite interested to hear her responses to SS questions.
I hardly think it was the challenging questions deterring her from answering. Do you not think in her long history of challenging these multi national corporations and court battles she has had to answer her fair share of tough questions?
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Thanks Dave, I haven't really gone away; just haven't found the discussion too stimulating. Too much peeing on peoples legs and too little focus on the meat of the subject.
In response to Steve's question about those protocols, Morton has just announced on her newest site that people should email her for the details. I can only assume from that and her lack of response to Steve's question here that they must be top secret. One would have thought she'd be happy to share her methods in order to help validate her work. After all, that is standard practice in the scientific method.
I think it's amusing that you believe she needs this forum's posters to "validate her work".
This isn't an exercise of having the industry and government validate Morton's work. This is about getting as much info to the public as possible so that we can get government to do the right thing with respect to preserving wild salmon.
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C'mon af, she posted, we questioned, she didn't respond.
G'night.
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She has plenty more fights under her belt than the likes of the pro farmers here ...go out put yourselves in the mass public eye and see how much you like it.
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Thanks Dave, I haven't really gone away; just haven't found the discussion too stimulating. Too much peeing on peoples legs and too little focus on the meat of the subject.
The best part about banging your head against a brick wall is when you stop......
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I understand what you're getting at, but I don't see it as banging my head against the wall.
It's pretty obvious that you will never change the mind of someone whose beliefs are entirely faith based and who believes that it's unfair to pick apart the things he posts just as you won't make headway against someone who makes up facts to suit his purposes and serves them up mixed with faulty assumptions and personal snipes. You are banging your head against the wall if you're trying to change their minds unless you really enjoy the juvenile schoolyard bickering.
There are, however, a number of other people who read this stuff for whom more complete and balanced information is important, and who understand that picking something apart is important to verifying it's truth. It is well worth the effort to post real information and critical evaluations for that reason. The problem with these recent threads is that there is no substance to them to be critically looked at. They seem to me more about bickering and name calling than anything else and while some may find that entertaining, I don't so I don't participate.