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Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1346140 times)

shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1725 on: November 24, 2015, 07:04:20 AM »

  Depending on your side the "self inflicted blindness to science " from one side is actually the info from 'farmfreshsalmon.org' which from the critics side could be seen as 'bunk science' or out of context ,slanted to make the farms look good .
 There is clearly lots of evidence from other countries and regions about the effects of salmon farming  on the environment .I feel that the self inflicted blindness comes from the industry side because they know it will effect the bottom line .
 Its funny that they concentrate on 1 critic and ignore all the other worldwide studies and good science available.

What specifically is the "bunk", "out of context", "slanted" science that is being used by website?
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1726 on: November 24, 2015, 09:07:35 AM »

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salmonrook

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1727 on: November 24, 2015, 10:11:31 AM »

What specifically is the "bunk", "out of context", "slanted" science that is being used by website?
Where to start...
   The website does have some useful information but it shouldn't be the only source of ones info because half the info is taken out of context for a specific time, specifically  sea lice.This problem is better managed now and they only use pesticide at certain times of the year.This was only a reaction to harm that was caused to the wild juvenile salmon runs passing the farms at the time.
 .And the info that's mentioned about the large amt of effluent being good for the environment ?please...... people see through that bs and no effluent is effluent .Purely bunk spin .
  They try to compare Alaska salmon ranching to farming ,which clearly are different ways to produce fish, throughout the life of the fish .Its true that the ranched fish start out in pens, but for a very short time ,the fish spend majority of the life in the ocean ,a more natural way to grow.If you look at the hatchery system in bc its fairly similar,trout and salmon which are raised to size then released .This enables the fish to forage naturally ,vs farming where they have to use 1.5 kgs of feed for 1 kg of fish .
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salmonrook

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Fisherbob

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troutbreath

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1730 on: November 24, 2015, 07:39:09 PM »

Well well bawb posting links to your fellow fishfarm worker is less than informative. But that's not your point is it. More propaganda for the dirty fish.

http://www.desmog.ca/vivian-krause


"In 2002 Krause was hired to work for Nutreco Aquaculture, the world's largest producer of farmed salmon, as a Corporate Development Manager for North America. Much of her work involved responding to environmental concerns related to the farmed fish industry and to combat the “Farmed and Dangerous Campaign” run by the David Suzuki Foundation. She later wrote on her blog, “a lot of my job was PR.”
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another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?

Dave

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1732 on: November 24, 2015, 08:27:22 PM »


 http://www.adn.com/article/20151119/fda-approves-genetically-modified-salmon-human-consumption
Imo gmo salmon and eventually other fish are the future of aquaculture worldwide and salmon farming here in BC and Washington.   I predict now that gmo salmon are allowed to be marketed in the US, Alaska will soon get on board and start their own “modified” farming program, relying less on their destructive to wild salmon ranching. This new ( to animal husbandry, old hat to agriculture) science seems to fit all the anti’s goals and objectives … sterile females, closed containment on land, less food needed to obtain an economically viable product, jobs, and perhaps the biggest bonus, hopefully less commercial fishing on dwindling wild stocks.

Sounds good to me.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1733 on: November 24, 2015, 11:39:21 PM »

Where to start...
   The website does have some useful information but it shouldn't be the only source of ones info because half the info is taken out of context for a specific time, specifically  sea lice.This problem is better managed now and they only use pesticide at certain times of the year.This was only a reaction to harm that was caused to the wild juvenile salmon runs passing the farms at the time.
 .And the info that's mentioned about the large amt of effluent being good for the environment ?please...... people see through that bs and no effluent is effluent .Purely bunk spin .
  They try to compare Alaska salmon ranching to farming ,which clearly are different ways to produce fish, throughout the life of the fish .Its true that the ranched fish start out in pens, but for a very short time ,the fish spend majority of the life in the ocean ,a more natural way to grow.If you look at the hatchery system in bc its fairly similar,trout and salmon which are raised to size then released .This enables the fish to forage naturally ,vs farming where they have to use 1.5 kgs of feed for 1 kg of fish .

What specific science are you referring to is what I asked.  You talked about bunk, out of context, slanted science.  Ok, what science are you referring to?  If it is easier pick out a blog post from that website.  Where is this information about large amounts of effluent?  Maybe start there.

Sea lice management likely has improved not unlike most aquaculture husbandry in BC.  I do not think agriculture on land went off without a hitch either.  I have no doubt when the industry first started out here it was not easy going especially when trying to cultivate Pacific Salmon species.  Now the BC industry here is likely more regulated than other places in the world.  What happened following that 2002 return was the creation of the Broughton Archipelago Monitoring Plan (BAMP) – involving salmon farms, conservationists, government and university academia.  It is more than just using SLICE.  Again, what do you actually know about sea lice management and monitoring before making the comments you are making now.

http://bamp.ca/pages/home.php

As for the “harm” that was caused to the wild juvenile salmon runs passing the farms at the time that sort of implies that the farms were the sole cause of low survival of the 2000 Pink Salmon brood year in that area.  Talk about half the information taken out of context because if you had read the report commissioned by the Suzuki Foundation they didn’t necessarily point the finger solely at salmon farms in the area.  Not to mention the diagnostic work that was not even attempted on the Pink Salmon juveniles to rule out and bacterial or viral infection.

On a similar note, Dr. Brian Riddell (former Head of Science at DFO out here, now leads the Pacific Salmon Foundation) suggested that Krkosek et al 2007 in their study that predicted 99% collapse of Pink Salmon in the Broughton area erroneously used 2000 (record high escapement) as their starting point and a record low in 2002.  Using such a short time series with such extremes it was inevitable that mathematical models were going to show negative productivity, he suggests.  Personally, what he says makes sense because making bold predictions of Pink Salmon escapements using mathematical models over such a short time series has some degree of uncertainty.

Why not compare salmon ranching to salmon farming?  One important thing that needs to be mentioned is that ranched salmon are not wild.  That is just a marketing thing because ranched salmon are artificially propagated with broodstock collected and selected by humans.  The only difference really is that ranched salmon are grown to a sufficient size in ocean net pens where they are large enough to be released to the open ocean to feed on their own (i.e. a more natural way?).  Well, it may seem natural, but there is nothing natural about salmon ranching.  You make it appear that because these ranched salmon spend the majority of their life in the ocean that their impacts are benign.  However, there is growing research now that the billions of ranched salmon (mostly Pink, but also Sockeye) being released by US (Alaska), Russia, Japan and South Korea are having an impact on wild salmon through competition.  How are wild Chinook salmon stocks doing in Alaska?  Not great.  If you had read the Cohen Final report you would have read testimony from Dr. Randall Peterman where he suggests that increasing competition from Pink Salmon could be real concern for wild salmon, in this case Fraser Sockeye.  Not mentioned by fish farm critics like Morton, but others like Watershed Watch Salmon Society see this as a growing issue.  Generally, Pink Salmon abundance in the North Pacific have increased significantly over the last decade.

Federal hatcheries do not release juveniles directly into the ocean and do not release billions annually into the ocean like the countries I mention above.  As for food conversion ratio, it is 1.2:1 and is better than any agricultural animal on land.  These ranched salmon are foraging naturally?  Sure they are when they are in the ocean, but they are eating off the same plate as wild salmon stocks.  Many researchers are concerned about this, it is something not mentioned by many fish farm critics.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 11:42:15 PM by shuswapsteve »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1734 on: November 24, 2015, 11:56:03 PM »

Imo gmo salmon and eventually other fish are the future of aquaculture worldwide and salmon farming here in BC and Washington.   I predict now that gmo salmon are allowed to be marketed in the US, Alaska will soon get on board and start their own “modified” farming program, relying less on their destructive to wild salmon ranching. This new ( to animal husbandry, old hat to agriculture) science seems to fit all the anti’s goals and objectives … sterile females, closed containment on land, less food needed to obtain an economically viable product, jobs, and perhaps the biggest bonus, hopefully less commercial fishing on dwindling wild stocks.

Sounds good to me.

I don't understand either, Dave. These are STERILE fish raised in closed containment on land. It meets many of the demands of critics of open net pen aquaculture, but because it has the name "GMO" attached to it then the critics come out and denounce it because they feel that either their health will be in danger from eating it (no evidence to back up those claims) or it will start breeding with other fish species (again, no evidence and misses the fact that they are sterile fish raised in closed containment).  Critics are concerned that these sterile fish will escape closed containment?  Ok...well, why do fish farm critics push for closed containment for aquaculture if there is a concern for escapees?  It seems like when people involved in aquaculture attempt to do what their critics want they still get criticized for it. Sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.  Like it or not, this is the way of the future as the demand for seafood products starts to outpace supply which won't be satisfied by traditional capture fisheries which indiscriminately take out weaker stocks amongst stronger stocks. The US imports most of its seafood and is striving to produce more of it at home. Guess what? They won't be using more gillnets and seines to capture wild fish to fill the demand. Critics don't have to take my word for it - read the reports from the United Nation's Food and Agricultural Organization.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 12:04:55 AM by shuswapsteve »
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salmonrook

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1735 on: November 24, 2015, 11:58:46 PM »

http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/ten-reasons-why-some-sea-lice-research-claims-are-false.html
  Most of this info makes assumptions about what happened based on survival rates, no hard evidence here to the contrary
 The antibiotics and chemicals used to treat sea lice were more of a  real problem for the pink salmon population here. The timing of the administering during the year was changed and this is now the norm for regulated use of these pesticides.

 Another hired gun lobbying for the farm industry.Its funny how none of the environmental damage is ever mentioned .
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1736 on: November 25, 2015, 12:15:14 AM »

  Most of this info makes assumptions about what happened based on survival rates, no hard evidence here to the contrary
 The antibiotics and chemicals used to treat sea lice were more of a  real problem for the pink salmon population here. The timing of the administering during the year was changed and this is now the norm for regulated use of these pesticides.

 Another hired gun lobbying for the farm industry.Its funny how none of the environmental damage is ever mentioned .

No hard evidence that sea lice were the main cause of mortality either if you read the report.  The title says, "Wild Salmon Mortality Caused By Salmon Farms".  Who is making assumptions, Salmonrook?  Antibiotics and chemicals used to treat sea lice were more of a real problem? Explain where this is mentioned in the Suzuki commissioned report as one of the cumulative impacts mentioned?  What do you know about the use of antibiotics on BC fish farms?
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salmonrook

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1737 on: November 25, 2015, 12:44:03 AM »

I don't understand either, Dave. These are STERILE fish raised in closed containment on land. It meets many of the demands of critics of open net pen aquaculture, but because it has the name "GMO" attached to it then the critics come out and denounce it because they feel that either their health will be in danger from eating it (no evidence to back up those claims) or it will start breeding with other fish species (again, no evidence and misses the fact that they are sterile fish raised in closed containment).  Critics are concerned that these sterile fish will escape closed containment?  Ok...well, why do fish farm critics push for closed containment for aquaculture if there is a concern for escapees?  It seems like when people involved in aquaculture attempt to do what their critics want they still get criticized for it. Sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.  Like it or not, this is the way of the future as the demand for seafood products starts to outpace supply which won't be satisfied by traditional capture fisheries which indiscriminately take out weaker stocks amongst stronger stocks. The US imports most of its seafood and is striving to produce more of it at home. Guess what? They won't be using more gillnets and seines to capture wild fish to fill the demand. Critics don't have to take my word for it - read the reports from the United Nation's Food and Agricultural Organization.
So why have 60 grocery chains across N.America rejected it ,including the biggest Costco .Fact is their is no requirement for them to label it as GMO .So you are taking away consumers right to chose. We don't know the dangers that these gmo products have on health and until their has been solid science to prove out that there is no risk to human or animal health then I applaud Costco for taking such a position .
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salmonrook

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1738 on: November 25, 2015, 01:07:30 AM »

No hard evidence that sea lice were the main cause of mortality either if you read the report.  The title says, "Wild Salmon Mortality Caused By Salmon Farms".  Who is making assumptions, Salmonrook?  Antibiotics and chemicals used to treat sea lice were more of a real problem? Explain where this is mentioned in the Suzuki commissioned report as one of the cumulative impacts mentioned?  What do you know about the use of antibiotics on BC fish farms?
   " Explain where this is mentioned in the Suzuki commissioned report as one of the cumulative impacts mentioned?"
 Its not and I am not the one mentioning the report , its you, to me that report is very vague in facts.
I get my info from other sources.You seem to mention the reports that have little to no backup with data .
 Here are 2 .
   http://www.artsandopinion.com/2005_v4_n2/slice.htm
 I mentioned this one before .

https://www.watershed-watch.org/2012/11/nine-year-study-confirms-sea-lice-outbreaks-on-farms-cause-wild-salmon-declines%e2%80%94better-farm-management-a-short-term-solution/


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Dave

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1739 on: November 25, 2015, 07:50:57 AM »

We don't know the dangers that these gmo products have on health and until their has been solid science to prove out that there is no risk to human or animal health then I applaud Costco for taking such a position .

So you're suggesting the FDA don't know what they're talking about? ::)
The fact that Canadian Costco stores imports it's Atlantic salmon from Chile and Norway rather than purchasing locally raised BC fish tells you a lot about their marketing strategies. Costco will be the first to come on line when the general public realizes these fish are perfectly safe to eat and a better product, environmentally, in many ways.

I agree however that it will take time before this happens as people in general dislike change.
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