Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: chris gadsden on January 07, 2013, 09:01:44 AM
-
National Boycott Of Open Pen Feedlot Salmon Rally in Chilliwack at the Great Canadian Superstore, Wednesday, January 9th, 12:00 PM to 1:00 PM
Calling all Wild Salmon Warriors to come out and take a stand for Wild Salmon! Encourage people to use the power of choice for healthier living and for a better environment! See you there!
This is the beginning of the National Boycott activities in Chilliwack! Bring your drums, rattle, signs and cameras! It will be educational, fun and empowering!
-
Sounds like the perfect time to buy some farmed salmon!
Remember, Salmo are Sacred :D
-
Sounds like the perfect time to buy some farmed salmon!
Remember, Salmo are Sacred :D
Come along I will get a picture and video of you picking up a buggy full. ;D ;D
-
Come along I will get a picture and video of you picking up a buggy full. ;D ;D
I might ;) Can you get me Staniford's condom suit??
-
I might ;) Can you get me Staniford's condom suit??
Just come as you are. ;D
-
What happens when these boycotts and protest are successful and the salmon farms are shut down? The demand for fresh salmon is growing and in light of the recent post about the high cost sale of bluefin, which is being fished to extinction, could wild salmon face the same fate? It seems like plan A is to commercially overfish dwindling stocks, plan B is to farm what we need and potentially damage our oceans, what is plan C?
-
What happens when these boycotts and protest are successful and the salmon farms are shut down? The demand for fresh salmon is growing and in light of the recent post about the high cost sale of bluefin, which is being fished to extinction, could wild salmon face the same fate? It seems like plan A is to commercially overfish dwindling stocks, plan B is to farm what we need and potentially damage our oceans, what is plan C?
Put them on land where they belong. Read the thread "Silenced" I just posted, does that not cause you some concern where we are headed?
-
What happens when these boycotts and protest are successful and the salmon farms are shut down? The demand for fresh salmon is growing and in light of the recent post about the high cost sale of bluefin, which is being fished to extinction, could wild salmon face the same fate? It seems like plan A is to commercially overfish dwindling stocks, plan B is to farm what we need and potentially damage our oceans, what is plan C?
Good post! but we all know there is no plan C
-
Put them on land where they belong. Read the thread "Silenced" I just posted, does that not cause you some concern where we are headed?
I just finished reading Morton's blog post and as expected it does a great job of sensationalizing the concerns around salmon farming, in that sense I suspect it will be successful in keeping her supporters motivated. What I'd love to see from her is the same fervour and passion devoted to a solution. I don't think it's enough anymore to just identify the problem. I apologize if I'm speaking unfairly, but it seems like most of the anti-salmon farm posts are just that; anti-salmon farm. What about devoting some more time to posts about how to make land based farms profitable? Lets face it, people want to eat salmon and companies want to make the most money possible. Maybe presenting an economically viable solution instead of just re-hashing a highly contentious "problem" would garner more support?
Good post! but we all know there is no plan C
It sounds like for Chris the plan C is land based farms? While I still don't support ocean based operations I was once given the advice that it is far more powerful to present a solution to a problem you've identified than to simply point it out and expect a change. Even if land-based operations were less profitable, I suspect more of the general public would support a boycott of a product if the same product could still be produced profitably in another way.
It seems there are options:
Land-based salmon farms make economic sense, report finds (http://pacificwild.org/site/related_news/1274823305.html)
Salmon farming comes ashore in land-based aquaculture (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Salmon+farming+comes+ashore+land+based+aquaculture/7562924/story.html)
Raising a fish out of water (http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/so04/indepth/portrait.asp)
ASF promoting land-based salmon farming
(http://www.thetelegram.com/Business/2012-11-01/article-3111652/ASF-promoting-landbased-salmon-farming/1)
Perhaps anti-salmon farm advocates should give some thought to presenting the pros and cons to land based options? I'd love to see an unbiased cost analysis of ocean vs land as well as an analysis of the environmental impacts of each on the known measurable like energy consumption and waste production.
-
it seems like most of the anti-salmon farm posts are just that; anti-salmon farm.
Thats right and if you follow the funding sources for these campaigns you will see that the source isn't interested either. If closed containment became the global supplier of food salmon then the Alaskan salmon fishery would be fighting it as well, some how, some way.
-
Salmon feedlots are a business and as such are responsible for finding their own solutions on how to run their business responsibly. I don't see how Morton should be responsible for helping them grow an environmentally responsible business. And even if she came up with alternative ways of operating that business, do you really think they would adopt them?
As much as people think Morton is sensationalizing, that's the way change happens. In this case the more folks are aware of the damage these feedlots are doing to our oceans, the less salmon will be purchased. The feedlots will either shut down or change their practices.
-
It seems the present Federal government is losing their mandate of looking after our environment on many fronts especially with the 2 recent omnibus bills.
The fish farms issue is just one of many concerns that many of us are aware of, what are the answers? I certainly donot know what it will take to change things for the better. It always seems money always takes precedents over looking after environmental issues. I guess it is a sign of the times.
I do know one thing for sure, if we did not have many people, like Alex things would be a lot worse.
-
I do know one thing for sure, if we did not have many people, like Alex things would be a lot worse.
Totally agree on that Chris but think what she could do with changing peoples opinion on really important issues impacting wild salmon .... she has a certain impact but it's sadly misdirected.
-
I just finished reading Morton's blog post and as expected it does a great job of sensationalizing the concerns around salmon farming, in that sense I suspect it will be successful in keeping her supporters motivated. What I'd love to see from her is the same fervour and passion devoted to a solution. I don't think it's enough anymore to just identify the problem. I apologize if I'm speaking unfairly, but it seems like most of the anti-salmon farm posts are just that; anti-salmon farm. What about devoting some more time to posts about how to make land based farms profitable? Lets face it, people want to eat salmon and companies want to make the most money possible. Maybe presenting an economically viable solution instead of just re-hashing a highly contentious "problem" would garner more support?
It sounds like for Chris the plan C is land based farms? While I still don't support ocean based operations I was once given the advice that it is far more powerful to present a solution to a problem you've identified than to simply point it out and expect a change. Even if land-based operations were less profitable, I suspect more of the general public would support a boycott of a product if the same product could still be produced profitably in another way.
It seems there are options:
Land-based salmon farms make economic sense, report finds (http://pacificwild.org/site/related_news/1274823305.html)
Salmon farming comes ashore in land-based aquaculture (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Salmon+farming+comes+ashore+land+based+aquaculture/7562924/story.html)
Raising a fish out of water (http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/so04/indepth/portrait.asp)
ASF promoting land-based salmon farming
(http://www.thetelegram.com/Business/2012-11-01/article-3111652/ASF-promoting-landbased-salmon-farming/1)
Perhaps anti-salmon farm advocates should give some thought to presenting the pros and cons to land based options? I'd love to see an unbiased cost analysis of ocean vs land as well as an analysis of the environmental impacts of each on the known measurable like energy consumption and waste production.
Don't you thing the government should be promoting this and finding a solution?
-
Totally agree on that Chris but think what she could do with changing peoples opinion on really important issues impacting wild salmon .... she has a certain impact but it's sadly misdirected.
Once again the Fed's are not helping, especially by gutting FOC.
-
Perhaps anti-salmon farm advocates should give some thought to presenting the pros and cons to land based options? I'd love to see an unbiased cost analysis of ocean vs land as well as an analysis of the environmental impacts of each on the known measurable like energy consumption and waste production.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/lib-bib/nasapi-inpasa/BC-aquaculture-CB-eng.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/CSAS/Csas/Publications/SAR-AS/2008/SAR-AS2008_001_e.pdf
-
Salmon feedlots are a business and as such are responsible for finding their own solutions on how to run their business responsibly. I don't see how Morton should be responsible for helping them grow an environmentally responsible business. And even if she came up with alternative ways of operating that business, do you really think they would adopt them?
This has nothing to do with benefiting the farms and everything to do with focusing Morton's attention on changing business practices to benefit wild salmon - that is the goal isn't it? In my opinion her energy and those of her supporters would be better served finding an economically and environmentally viable method of farming salmon, rather than pointing a finger at the same issues repeatedly. The general population has a short attention span, is apathetic, and will take the path of least resistance.
I agree with Chris that the gov't should be making decisions with our children's future in mind, but the most recent decisions clearly demonstrate a different agenda. To that end, it's going to take more effort than just a fraction of the passionate public to make a difference. In my own experience I've urged friends and family not to buy farmed salmon, while generally apathetic, they were swayed only by my passion on the subject and to that end vowed to make the switch to only buy wild. That left me in the unenviable and rather weak position of educating them why they shouldn't buy wild salmon. If I did a good job, they now vowed to not buy wild for about as long as it took them to tell me so. The reality is people like salmon and all of the marketing is telling them they should eat more of it.
I quickly went from being an advocate of wild salmon to an unreasonable extremist.
If Morton's goal is to save wild salmon, she needs more support and most people only change behaviours when it's easy and convenient. If I can tell my friends and family they can still eat salmon from land based farms but should boycott ocean based, they are FAR more likely to embrace that idea then to forgo salmon altogether.
Don't you thing the government should be promoting this and finding a solution?
I definitely think they should be and I'm very grateful to people like yourself who feel the same way and fight to make a difference and raise awareness. I just believe the constant message about the farms being disease ridden evil entities (whether true or not) is getting old and that's a problem. Perhaps one solution would be to focus energy on promoting a better way to farm?
-
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/lib-bib/nasapi-inpasa/BC-aquaculture-CB-eng.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/CSAS/Csas/Publications/SAR-AS/2008/SAR-AS2008_001_e.pdf
Thank you! I look forward to reading it.
-
In my opinion her energy and those of her supporters would be better served finding an economically and environmentally viable method of farming salmon, rather than pointing a finger at the same issues repeatedly.
I'm not sure what your business experience is.....
Isn't it the responsibility of the feedlot business to find an economically and environmentally viable method of farming salmon? Suggesting that Morton should raise private funds to help the feedlot industry do that would be like suggesting Chris spend his time and efforts developing ways to remove gravel from the Fraser River. While business would appreciate the help so they could pocket the profits, it's just not how business works.
While government is investing heavily to help the feedlots, they have abandoned their primary responsibility which is to protect wild salmon. Fortunately for the wild salmon, Morton has stepped up to help them.
-
I'm not sure what your business experience is.....
I hope I'm wrong in thinking you're making an effort to belittle my business competence and instead simply misunderstanding my point for a second time.
Isn't it the responsibility of the feedlot business to find an economically and environmentally viable method of farming salmon? Suggesting that Morton should raise private funds to help the feedlot industry do that would be like suggesting Chris spend his time and efforts developing ways to remove gravel from the Fraser River. While business would appreciate the help so they could pocket the profits, it's just not how business works.
It is the responsibility of the business to do as you have suggested, Morton is arguing that they are not. I'm suggesting another way to achieve her goal would be to educate the public how land based farming can be economically and environmentally viable and in doing so attain better support from the general salmon eating public. Resultantly, changing buying habits to support land based operations and forcing ocean based businesses to make the transition.
While government is investing heavily to help the feedlots, they have abandoned their primary responsibility which is to protect wild salmon. Fortunately for the wild salmon, Morton has stepped up to help them.
Helping wild salmon doesn't simply mean ending salmon farming...
-
Like why should it be up to Morton to get salmon farmers to do to right thing? It should be the government stopping those bad practices from occuring. Get with the program man :) Or go out and get yourself another choss of that farmed salmon. :) Maybe you and Dave can have a BBQ. ;D
Again another poster thinking that were anti salmon farmers? It must be the SLICE.
-
I hope I'm wrong in thinking you're making an effort to belittle my business competence and instead simply misunderstanding my point for a second time.
If you're thinking that... you would be wrong. If the feedlot business was to hire Morton to give them advice on how to structure their business so that it would not harm wild salmon, I am sure that she would be happy to take on that contract. However I am sure you and I can agree that they wouldn't offer that type of contract nor would they take any advice she gave them even if it was for free.
It is the responsibility of the business to do as you have suggested, Morton is arguing that they are not. I'm suggesting another way to achieve her goal would be to educate the public how land based farming can be economically and environmentally viable and in doing so attain better support from the general salmon eating public. Resultantly, changing buying habits to support land based operations and forcing ocean based businesses to make the transition.
As long as business can reap a higher profit running their feedlots in the ocean rather than on land they will make every effort to resist moving to closed containment. Closed containment will not generate the same profits ocean feedlots will generate. For a corporation being environmentally responsible will always be secondary to generating profits. The only way to force change on business is by convincing the public that they shouldn't buy the feedlot product. I believe Morton has been very effective in doing that.
Helping wild salmon doesn't simply mean ending salmon farming...
I don't think Morton or anyone opposed to ocean feedlots opposes salmon farming..... we just believe they shouldn't be doing it using open pens anchored in the ocean where wild salmon can come in contact with them.
-
“It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to initiate a new order of things.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, Unknown Book 6404579
-
If you're thinking that... you would be wrong. If the feedlot business was to hire Morton to give them advice on how to structure their business so that it would not harm wild salmon, I am sure that she would be happy to take on that contract. However I am sure you and I can agree that they wouldn't offer that type of contract nor would they take any advice she gave them even if it was for free.
I apologize, because I don’t feel like I'm very successfully presenting my thoughts and as a result you still seem to misunderstand what I’m trying to say.
Let me try this another way:
1. Demand for salmon is very high.
2. Commercially harvesting wild salmon to meet that demand isn’t the answer.
3. Farming salmon in open net pens isn’t the answer.
To me, Morton predominantly focuses on two messages:
A. Farmed salmon are harmful to wild fish.
B. Salmon are sacred.
You say: The only way to force change on business is by convincing the public that they shouldn't buy the feedlot product. I believe Morton has been very effective in doing that.
I have a couple of questions:
- When people stop buying “feedlot product” what do they buy instead? Keeping in mind 2 and B.
- What do you feel is a more successful tactic. Giving up something cold turkey or being offered an alternative?
Finally, this is just my opinion, but based on discussions with friends and family who are far less informed on the topic (like most of the general public) when you say: I don't think Morton or anyone opposed to ocean feedlots opposes salmon farming..... we just believe they shouldn't be doing it using open pens anchored in the ocean where wild salmon can come in contact with them.
That is not the message I get AT ALL and I suspect I’m not alone. That is why I suggested some thought be devoted to educating the general public to the viability of an alternative source of farmed salmon. In my humble opinion, to do anything less is simply trading one problem for another.
-
I think you and I are seeing the industry in basically the same way.
It's a great idea to educate the public, however that takes a lot of investment dollars. The only people that have that kind of money to invest are the feedlot business and government. Unfortunately neither of them has the survival of wild salmon as a priority.
Morton has limited funds and as such can only educate the public if the media re-broadcasts her message. This is where the pro feedlot boys get on her case for "grandstanding". However if she wasn't out there "grandstanding", the public wouldn't get any education on the dangers of feedlot farming and the wild salmon would be in worse shape. Of course this is what the feedlot industry wants.
The feedlot industry has filled a "need for salmon" however by being able to cheaply grow the stuff with little consideration for the environment, they have also been able to grow the market. The market would shrink if the price of the salmon was higher and/or if the public turned against the open pen grown stuff. Many British Columbian's are avoiding the purchase of the feedlot product in restaurants and more of them are looking for alternatives in the grocery stores. That's why the majority of BC's feedlot product is exported to the US, where they have no clue of the effects of the feedlot industry.
My understanding of Morton's stand is that she could care less where they grow the stuff, as long as it isn't grown in open pens in the ocean. She does believe salmon are sacred because she understands how vital the salmon are to the entire west coast eco system. The loss of wild salmon would be devastating. And despite what the feedlot industry wants you to believe, the limited science(seemingly purposely limited by DFO), together with simple logic suggests the feedlots are harmful to wild salmon. And yes there are other factors affecting the survival of wild salmon, however this thread is about the feedlot's effect on them.
-
Perhaps if the salmon feedlots in BC operated like our good neighbours to the south run their atlantic "feedlots" in Washington, all would be ok.
-
Perhaps if the salmon feedlots in BC operated like our good neighbours to the south run their atlantic "feedlots" in Washington, all would be ok.
How are they run differently?
-
Dave, I am only assuming this because I have never seen the Washington state atlantic feedlots on Dr Morton or Stanifords radar.
-
Dave, I am only assuming this because I have never seen the Washington state atlantic feedlots on Dr Morton or Stanifords radar.
Nor is commercial, FN and sports overfishing or Alaskan salmon ranching, habitat loss, or climate change. Who would fund and support her endeavours if they did address these issues?
Exactly right.
-
Nor is commercial, FN and sports overfishing or Alaskan salmon ranching, habitat loss, or climate change. Who would fund and support her endeavours if they did address these issues?
Exactly right.
I do find myself troubled by her continued silence about Alaskan ranched salmon, marketed as wild-caught, which will be the obvious beneficiaries of this farmed salmon boycott. Does she not understand how salmon ranching works or could affect genetics and diseases in wild fish? Hatchery-raised native species released in vast numbers to co-mingle and compete with wild salmon in their oceanic feeding grounds? If wild salmon are so sacred, how can she not see and be concerned about the risks from Alaskan, Russian and Japanese ranching? She seems like a bright woman so I understand why it raises alarm bells about her true motives.
-
I do find myself troubled by her continued silence about Alaskan ranched salmon, marketed as wild-caught, which will be the obvious beneficiaries of this farmed salmon boycott. Does she not understand how salmon ranching works or could affect genetics and diseases in wild fish? Hatchery-raised native species released in vast numbers to co-mingle and compete with wild salmon in their oceanic feeding grounds? If wild salmon are so sacred, how can she not see and be concerned about the risks from Alaskan, Russian and Japanese ranching? She seems like a bright woman so I understand why it raises alarm bells about her true motives.
Not sure how sincere your comments are, and I suspect they are just more of the typical Morton bashing we've become accustomed to from the pro feedlot crew...
From a realistic and logical perspective Morton can't be expected to solve all issues related to the survival of BC's wild salmon. While I am sure you would love for her to take the focus off the feedlots, common sense is pretty clear that you will be most successful if you focus, rather than using a scatter gun approach as you and the pro feedlot crew seem to suggest.
While there are other factors affecting the survival of wild salmon, removing the open pens from the ocean is the single factor that can be fixed in a short period of time.
-
On the other side of the pond the fish farmers are playing "softly softly catchy monkey"
http://forargyll.com/2013/01/two-leaked-emails-tell-fishy-tales-of-salmon-farming-in-outer-hebrides/
I can see why some of the fish farmers don't like salmon ranching. It affects the amount of money all those industries that help sponser there campaign to influence government make. Like EWOS and the chemical brotherhood that keep there fish alive.
-
See you all at the Boycott today. ;D ;D
-
Not sure how sincere your comments are, and I suspect they are just more of the typical Morton bashing we've become accustomed to from the pro feedlot crew...
From a realistic and logical perspective Morton can't be expected to solve all issues related to the survival of BC's wild salmon. While I am sure you would love for her to take the focus off the feedlots, common sense is pretty clear that you will be most successful if you focus, rather than using a scatter gun approach as you and the pro feedlot crew seem to suggest.
While there are other factors affecting the survival of wild salmon, removing the open pens from the ocean is the single factor that can be fixed in a short period of time.
Your diversion tactics aside AF, I support Justice Cohens recommendations on the fish farm industry. It's a realistic view with realistic steps that can be taken to manage fish farming in BC given the current scientific uncertainties.
Unlike you, I believe Alex Morton is quite capable of addressing and writing on two issues at once, particularly when salmon farming and ocean ranching share many of the same potential problems for wild stocks.
-
While there are other factors affecting the survival of wild salmon, removing the open pens from the ocean is the single factor that can be fixed in a short period of time.
Such logic fails to recognize some of the more obvious options......like stop fishing them or using fisheries that are more selective. But as we all well know, the campaign against salmon farms has been more like "don't buy farm salmon get a wild salmon instead." Where is the logic in that????
-
Pictures I and my wife took are here. http://www.facebook.com/groups/111365508874859/permalink/549221085089297/
Videos to follow.
-
http://youtu.be/PAfhaUq1HVM
-
http://www.mychilliwacknews.com/blog/view/26956/1
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OXSqsfCX2o&feature=share&list=UU_4LtEFjHj-ulBHuoq6COmQ
-
Maybe Dave will bring along one his sacred farmed salmon , then we can barbecue it up , and feed it to the dogs!
-
Norton. Is sacred salmon not used in pet food? Seems like a waste to me.
-
Maybe Dave will bring along one his sacred farmed salmon , then we can barbecue it up , and feed it to the dogs!
Pretty sure wild salmon are filling up Alpo cans too! uhoh!
-
Pretty sure wild salmon are filling up Alpo cans too! uhoh!
Exactly. Why feed a dog feedlot salmon when you can get perfectly good pet food made from sacred wild salmon. I have never seen Dr. Morton say anything wrong about this. Save the sacred wild salmon. Only eat wild.
-
Yea , I guess they use wild salmon for dog food so they don't poison them with farmed salmon.
-
Exactly. Why feed a dog feedlot salmon when you can get perfectly good pet food made from sacred wild salmon. I have never seen Dr. Morton say anything wrong about this. Save the sacred wild salmon. Only eat wild.
And then pick the stock to harvest, Good luck on that.
-
And then pick the stock to harvest, Good luck on that.
I am sure Dr. Morton can lead me in the right direction the same as Dr. Ballard did. Feed your pets the best.
-
This thread has gone to the dogs. ::) I wonder what kind of salmon Morton feeds her dog? ::)
-
I have boycotted feedlot salmon long ago. Never want to take a bite of the drugged & toxin-laden fish after tasting our hatchery raised ocean fresh salmon. ;) Hey, but why they did the rally on Wednesday. If they had done it on weekend, I would definitely go there rally to protect the precious wild salmon.
-
http://www.theprogress.com/news/187043451.html
-
Happy to read Jennifer F gave Grant Warkentin some space to show the other side of this issue. Good reporting imo.
-
Happy to read Jennifer F gave Grant Warkentin some space to show the other side of this issue. Good reporting imo.
Oh and I thought you would comment on my quote. ;D
-
" Our farming practices are based on the best available science, and our evolution over the past 30 years shows just how far we've come."
That was when the cornflakes came spewing out of my mouth while reading the article.
-
I'm not sure what your business experience is.....
Isn't it the responsibility of the feedlot business to find an economically and environmentally viable method of farming salmon? Suggesting that Morton should raise private funds to help the feedlot industry do that would be like suggesting Chris spend his time and efforts developing ways to remove gravel from the Fraser River. While business would appreciate the help so they could pocket the profits, it's just not how business works.
While government is investing heavily to help the feedlots, they have abandoned their primary responsibility which is to protect wild salmon. Fortunately for the wild salmon, Morton has stepped up to help them.
you're kidding right? since when did the government give a crap about anything? they're just another interest group looking out for themselves....it's called the law of supply and demand, as long as there's a need/want...there will always be the source until the supply runs out.
as mentioned before, it's the responsibility of each individual to be accountable...the problem i have is most of the anti farming protestors i've encountered are the biggest hypocrites....i didn't see anyone of them boycott the commies when they over harvested the sockeye back in 2010...i have yet to witness any of them protest against first nation's lack of enforcement with the 'back of the truck' sales of salmon intended for traditional food....and unless Alexandra Morton is a vegan who only eats organically grown produce and use non commercialized products then she's the biggest hypocrite of them all.
-
as mentioned before, it's the responsibility of each individual to be accountable...the problem i have is most of the anti farming protestors i've encountered are the biggest hypocrites....i didn't see anyone of them boycott the commies when they over harvested the sockeye back in 2010...i have yet to witness any of them protest against first nation's lack of enforcement with the 'back of the truck' sales of salmon intended for traditional food....and unless Alexandra Morton is a vegan who only eats organically grown produce and use non commercialized products then she's the biggest hypocrite of them all.
You sound like one of the feedlot boys..... rather than trying to support their position that the feedlots supposedly don't harm the wild salmon you resort to these scatter gun jabs.....
We rely on DFO to manage the salmon fisheries and as a result we assume that they are not allowing over harvest. Do you have some stats to support your position that they are allowing over harvest?
I am sure if you are willing to start a protest against first nations abuse of their traditional rights, you will have many supporters....
Finally your comment about Morton makes absolutely no sense. Not sure what point you are trying to make with that comment....
-
You sound like one of the feedlot boys..... rather than trying to support their position that the feedlots supposedly don't harm the wild salmon you resort to these scatter gun jabs.....
We rely on DFO to manage the salmon fisheries and as a result we assume that they are not allowing over harvest. Do you have some stats to support your position that they are allowing over harvest?
Bwahahahahaha!!!!!!! You're killin' me here! You have such faith when it comes to DFO's harvest management practices when it comes time to support your position, yet that seems to evaporate when it comes to aquaculture management.
I have this sneaking suspicion that you may not believe stats presented to support the claim of harvest mismanagement......
-
You sound like one of the feedlot boys..... rather than trying to support their position that the feedlots supposedly don't harm the wild salmon you resort to these scatter gun jabs.....
We rely on DFO to manage the salmon fisheries and as a result we assume that they are not allowing over harvest. Do you have some stats to support your position that they are allowing over harvest?
I am sure if you are willing to start a protest against first nations abuse of their traditional rights, you will have many supporters....
Finally your comment about Morton makes absolutely no sense. Not sure what point you are trying to make with that comment....
don't tell me you weren't around back in the summer of 2010...it was all over the news about the banner run that allowed the commies to catch so much fish that the plants and cold storage facilities were bursting at the seems. tonnes of sockeye were rotting because they couldn't be processed fast enough... it got so bad their prices dropped to pennies on the dollar, yet fortunes were made due to the vast quantity of fish being harvested.
i live in Richmond and i personally witnessed the carnage...if you look back in this forum's history you'll see that a debate arose from this event.
i don't have a problem with first nations as a whole, but at times i question their agendas when it comes to the environment and their political stance, especially when it effects issues regarding entitlement.
as far as Alexandra Morton...she's nothing more than a environmental alchemist who's research is based on conjecture and probabilities rather than proven scientific facts yet she uses her findings to isolate the worse case scenarios and publicizes them in the form of scare tactics.
-
I have this sneaking suspicion that you may not believe stats presented to support the claim of harvest mismanagement......
Why don't you put some numbers up or a link at least....
-
i don't have a problem with first nations as a whole, but at times i question their agendas when it comes to the environment and their political stance, especially when it effects issues regarding entitlement.
We may agree on this issue, however don't point fingers at Morton and those that support her unless you are willing to get involved in fixing this problem yourself.
as far as Alexandra Morton...she's nothing more than a environmental alchemist who's research is based on conjecture and probabilities rather than proven scientific facts yet she uses her findings to isolate the worse case scenarios and publicizes them in the form of scare tactics.
Your "clarification" still makes no sense. If we took your approach which seems to suggest that we let the feedlots do their thing, our wild salmon would likely be in much worse shape. There are many changes that the industry has made already that are a result of the work that Morton has done. Even Cohen was clear on the problems and solutions related to feedlots amplification of sea lice and diseases. He confirmed what Morton has been saying all along that the feedlots need to be removed from the migratory routes of the fry.
You've been clear on how you feel about Morton, the problem is that there are no facts to support your position.
-
Your "clarification" still makes no sense. If we took your approach which seems to suggest that we let the feedlots do their thing, our wild salmon would likely be in much worse shape. There are many changes that the industry has made already that are a result of the work that Morton has done. Even Cohen was clear on the problems and solutions related to feedlots amplification of sea lice and diseases. He confirmed what Morton has been saying all along that the feedlots need to be removed from the migratory routes of the fry.
You've been clear on how you feel about Morton, the problem is that there are no facts to support your position.
let me put it to you this way...with the masses come high demand. if we eliminate alternatives to help alleviate pressures on our natural resources how in world would that be beneficial to the survival of any wild species?
no one ever said the feedlots are infallible, in fact a lot of things can be improved in the way they are operated, but those who demand their dismantling need to get a grip on reality.
Alexandra Morton who's supposedly a leading expert on the life cycle of sea lice and their affect on the migratory habits of juvenile salmon can't even come up with any plausible or hypothetical numbers that would back her own claims of devastation to the wild stock population....her studies are based on an enclosed grid where numbers will obviously show high density in a concentrated area...she fails to show the affects of sea lice past the area of study nor has she shown a study of their survival/growth rate versus areas where feedlots don't exist or have no baring on the migration of fish...it's like measuring the toxicity level of a beach during red tide and proclaiming the whole coast unsafe for shellfish consumption.
sometimes, tunnel vision have as much a negative effect, as the subject you are opposing.
-
sometimes, tunnel vision have as much a negative effect, as the subject you are opposing.
The leading cause of tunnel vision is glaucoma.... I just had an eye check up and my optometrist assured me I am glaucoma free.... which means I do not have tunnel vision.
Obviously tunnel vision is not the reason I oppose open pen feedlots!
-
Why don't you put some numbers up or a link at least....
Because I'm not going to do your homework for you. Here's a hint: Upper Adams sockeye 2004. Go see how recent harvest management strategies on that cycle line worked out. You should have a fairly recent point of reference, since 2012 would be the grandchildren from those fish.
-
Because I'm not going to do your homework for you. Here's a hint: Upper Adams sockeye 2004. Go see how recent harvest management strategies on that cycle line worked out. You should have a fairly recent point of reference, since 2012 would be the grandchildren from those fish.
Ah..you are going straight for the jugular with that example...lol. I am getting a good laugh at reading AF's interpretation of Cohen right now and his praise for Morton. Whatever happened to her anyway? Ask a few questions and then she vanishes. Oh yeah...she is too busy...LMAO.
-
Obviously tunnel vision is not the reason I oppose open pen feedlots!
i'm sure it's not... but the ideology and strong anti sentiments towards a future necessity like salmon farming has inadvertently misguided your good intent.
-
Because I'm not going to do your homework for you.
I'm not asking for you to do homework for me.... However I was challenging your comments below.
I have this sneaking suspicion that you may not believe stats presented to support the claim of harvest mismanagement......
-
i'm sure it's not... but the ideology and strong anti sentiments towards a future necessity like salmon farming has inadvertently misguided your good intent.
I've never argued against "a future necessity like salmon farming". All I've ever argued for is the necessity of removing the feedlots from our coastal waters, which would immediately remove a major risk to the wild salmon. Then we can focus on the other issues affecting the survival of wild salmon, which will take much longer than ripping out the feedlots.
-
People have been trying to have the salmon farms removed for over twenty-five years starting with commercial fishermen; Morton is Johnny-come-lately to the party. Perhaps it's time to focus on something that will do some good.
-
People have been trying to have the salmon farms removed for over twenty-five years starting with commercial fishermen; Morton is Johnny-come-lately to the party. Perhaps it's time to focus on something that will do some good.
Like overharvesting by all user groups ...
-
I'm not asking for you to do homework for me.... However I was challenging your comments below.
Which I provided a specific example of over harvest decimating a salmon stock. Also see Strait of Georgia coho fishery in the early to mid 90's, Lower Georgia Strait (Cowichan River) Chinook harvested at a 70%+ rate up until a couple years back, spring run Chinook in the upper Fraser harvested at very high rates up to 2009, Rivers/Smith Inlet sockeye back in the 40s and 50s, all specific examples of poor harvest management practices having acute and detrimental effects on salmon stocks.
Deflect at your leisure.
-
Which I provided a specific example of over harvest decimating a salmon stock. Also see Strait of Georgia coho fishery in the early to mid 90's, Lower Georgia Strait (Cowichan River) Chinook harvested at a 70%+ rate up until a couple years back, spring run Chinook in the upper Fraser harvested at very high rates up to 2009, Rivers/Smith Inlet sockeye back in the 40s and 50s, all specific examples of poor harvest management practices having acute and detrimental effects on salmon stocks.
Deflect at your leisure.
Thanks for providing a few example of "over harvest" or perhaps just miscalculations of the salmon runs in those particular years. I don't think your examples demonstrate a consistent practice of "harvest mismanagement". DFO can be criticized about many things however they do seem to put a significant effort into determining salmon run sizes.
We've all heard this harvest mismanagement argument before and it's typically used to divert attention from the feedlot risks.
-
Thanks for providing a few example of "over harvest" or perhaps just miscalculations of the salmon runs in those particular years. I don't think your examples demonstrate a consistent practice of "harvest mismanagement". DFO can be criticized about many things however they do seem to put a significant effort into determining salmon run sizes.
We've all heard this harvest mismanagement argument before and it's typically used to divert attention from the feedlot risks.
Bahahahaha!!!!! This is classic! OK, one little hint to get you started big guy :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overexploitation#Fisheries
Please continue to enlighten us with more of your in-depth, first hand knowledge of how pacific salmon fisheries are conducted. I've given several examples specific to both year and stock in which overexploitation has contributed to temporary or persistent decreases in stock abundance, and occasionally productivity for several decades, not just one or two years. Read between the lines......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioYJNjFBs24
-
Bahahahaha!!!!! This is classic! OK, one little hint to get you started big guy :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overexploitation#Fisheries
Please continue to enlighten us with more of your in-depth, first hand knowledge of how pacific salmon fisheries are conducted. I've given several examples specific to both year and stock in which overexploitation has contributed to temporary or persistent decreases in stock abundance, and occasionally productivity. This may have provided some hints as to the source of where I have formed my opinions on this subject, although you seem to be struggling on reading between the lines at the fairly clear inferences present. Is it that I am in bed with the feedlots, or...........
It's a rather large leap to suggest that the Coastal wild salmon numbers are down because of "over exploitation". By definition over exploitation is a willful act and although there have been incidents of miscalculation, there is minimal support (if any) for an argument of over exploitation. You need to give the feedlots credit for their contribution to the decline of the wild salmon.
I didn't take the time to view the youtube as I didn't think the Simpsons likely have a lot to say in support of your argument of "over exploitation"
-
Thanks for providing a few example of "over harvest" or perhaps just miscalculations of the salmon runs in those particular years. I don't think your examples demonstrate a consistent practice of "harvest mismanagement". DFO can be criticized about many things however they do seem to put a significant effort into determining salmon run sizes.
We've all heard this harvest mismanagement argument before and it's typically used to divert attention from the feedlot risks.
no such thing as a miscalculation of runs based on migratory history...especially when harvest quotas are being set on guess work, however, when you have unexpected numbers like we did back in 2010 and ceilings were being raised without regard to consequences ...it leads me to believe somewhere down the line, management was non existent...who's to say that year wasn't a combination of 2 cycles/generations that overlapped and inter connected at some point of migration?
over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation...not only with salmon, but other species like the atlantic cod.
-
no such thing as a miscalculation of runs based on migratory history...especially when harvest quotas are being set on guess work, however, when you have unexpected numbers like we did back in 2010 and ceilings were being raised without regard to consequences ...it leads me to believe somewhere down the line, management was non existent...who's to say that year wasn't a combination of 2 cycles/generations that overlapped and inter connected at some point of migration?
over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation...not only with salmon, but other species like the atlantic cod.
I can see you are convinced....
Your statement "over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation.." is over the top. It's just more feedlot rhetoric.
-
You started with this question,
We rely on DFO to manage the salmon fisheries and as a result we assume that they are not allowing over harvest. Do you have some stats to support your position that they are allowing over harvest?
to which I gave very specific answers with examples. While you may choose to reject them as being in support of a position you disagree with, they are pieces of specific evidence that can be researched to form your own opinion. You then ask me to:
You need to give the feedlots credit for their contribution to the decline of the wild salmon.
I will consider this when you can provide just one specific example in BC of a stock/species/run/year that has seen the declines such as those I identify above, in which the causatory agent can be directly identified as aquaculture. Just one example, that's it. Should be easy enough, hey?
You should have a quick peek at the video and guess which one you are lol.
-
no such thing as a miscalculation of runs based on migratory history...especially when harvest quotas are being set on guess work, however, when you have unexpected numbers like we did back in 2010 and ceilings were being raised without regard to consequences ...it leads me to believe somewhere down the line, management was non existent...who's to say that year wasn't a combination of 2 cycles/generations that overlapped and inter connected at some point of migration?
over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation...not only with salmon, but other species like the atlantic cod.
Ok, this is getting a little bit non-sensical on both sides. Harvest levels are definitely not set based on "guess work".
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2012/smon/smon-sc-cs-2012-eng.pdf
UNfortunately, salmon are tough to accurately count when they're swimming in the ocean, so "mis calculation" as you call it does occur. If it occurs in the wrong direction and harvest rates weren't conservative enough, you end up with over harvest (i.e. higher than intended). In a productive freshwater and marine environment this may not be a problem; when it's not, you can get collapses.
High exploitation rates are not the only thing that have been proven to cause declines in abundance. Impacts on freshwater habitat, increasing water temperatures, hydroelectricity projects have also been shown to directly impact salmon stocks. Aquaculture has been suspected of causing serious harm, but not proven yet (as per Cohen).
-
I will consider this when you can provide just one specific example in BC of a stock/species/run/year that has seen the declines such as those I identify above, in which the causatory agent can be directly identified as aquaculture. Just one example, that's it. Should be easy enough, hey?
Perhaps you could use your connections to get the feedlots to release their disease records so they could be correlated with historical return records. While the circumstantial evidence showing that sea lice and disease amplification is part of the feedlot effect, (which is the reason why we oppose feedlots) providing you with statistical science is a little difficult.
-
Perhaps you could use your connections to get the feedlots to release their disease records so they could be correlated with historical return records. While the circumstantial evidence showing that sea lice and disease amplification is part of the feedlot effect, (which is the reason why we oppose feedlots) providing you with statistical science is a little difficult.
Sorry, even if I had connection in the feedlot business (which I don') I wouldn't be making your argument by doing your research for you.
I take that as a no, you can't provide an example. Ok, good discussion, I'm out.
-
Ok, this is getting a little bit non-sensical on both sides. Harvest levels are definitely not set based on "guess work".
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2012/smon/smon-sc-cs-2012-eng.pdf
UNfortunately, salmon are tough to accurately count when they're swimming in the ocean, so "mis calculation" as you call it does occur. If it occurs in the wrong direction and harvest rates weren't conservative enough, you end up with over harvest (i.e. higher than intended). In a productive freshwater and marine environment this may not be a problem; when it's not, you can get collapses.
High exploitation rates are not the only thing that have been proven to cause declines in abundance. Impacts on freshwater habitat, increasing water temperatures, hydroelectricity projects have also been shown to directly impact salmon stocks. Aquaculture has been suspected of causing serious harm, but not proven yet (as per Cohen).
fair enough..."guess work" seems a bit derogatory as a description...it was an attempt to describe statistically the discrepancy of fish counting and it's correlation to harvest forecasting.
it's also true there are many other factors that affect the migratory cycle of salmon, habitat destruction being a great example as you pointed out that would be more viable as a platform of protest.
-
Perhaps you could use your connections to get the feedlots to release their disease records so they could be correlated with historical return records. While the circumstantial evidence showing that sea lice and disease amplification is part of the feedlot effect, (which is the reason why we oppose feedlots) providing you with statistical science is a little difficult.
with all do respect, every sample specimen that were presented by the anti feedlot protesters were specifically hand picked...unless i missed something, i don't recall them ever doing a random selection of items collected from any given source other than what they were specifically looking for.
for their case studies, i would ask:
how many sources? how many tainted samples per unit of numbered specimen? how random were the studies? what were their true percentage points based on source location? dates? point of origin?...etc.
how can you constantly ask for specific examples when you yourself can only come up with so called 'circumstantial evidence'?... that's hardly enough basis to take such a hard stance on something that has not been proven or unproven...seems you're equally convinced on your views/beliefs as a result of media mongering and the effects of fear propaganda.
-
Like I have always said "hand picked seines and hand pick data".
-
Like I have always said "hand picked seines and hand pick data".
A number of you post how great the industry is but how do you explain things like this? Does not seem to great to me. ???
Gill disease to cost salmon farmers £30mSteven Vass
Deputy Business Editor, Sunday Herald.Saturday 19 January 2013 GRIEG Seafood, one of Scotland's big five salmon farmers, has lost one-third of its latest harvest to amoebic gill disease (AGD), the ailment that is set to cost the industry more than £30 million in lost revenue.
GRIEG Seafood, one of Scotland's big five salmon farmers, has lost one-third of its latest harvest to amoebic gill disease (AGD), the ailment that is set to cost the industry more than £30 million in lost revenue.
Custom byline text: Steven vass
Grieg owns 31 farms on the Shetland Islands and employs 180 local people.
It confirmed in its latest trading update that 2400 tonnes of salmon with a market value of some £8m died between October and December of last year.
Contextual targeting label: Block list
Like many farmed salmon in Scotland, the fish had been infected by AGD, a disease that is not normally seen in this country but has thrived in unusually high seawater temperatures in the past few months.
Grieg's farms were then also attacked by sea lice, and fish already weakened by the AGD then died from the lice treatment.
Oslo-listed Grieg has taken a NK45m (£5m) writedown over the lost tonnage, pushed up to NK88m (£10m) due to problems with a different disease at its Canadian farms.
It has become the latest victim in an AGD outbreak across Scottish salmon farms, described by one analyst as very serious.
It is expected to cut 2013 tonnages by at least 7500 tonnes or 5%, which, added to Grieg's losses, will represent a revenue loss of about £32.5m at a per-kilo price of £3.25 (as quoted by Index Mundi).
In reality, however, the situation could be worse after the other major farmers update the markets in the coming weeks.
The Scottish Salmon Company (SSC) and Marine Harvest (MH) have both confirmed that they lost fish in 2012 due to AGD, and harvested fish earlier than planned while they were still healthy. This would affect its 2013 tonnages.
The cost of treating the AGD with fresh water or hydrogen peroxide needs to be added on as well.
Kolbjorn Giskeodegard, an analyst at Nordea Research said: "Clearly it's very serious and it's affecting the industry more strongly than I had estimated beforehand.
"Harvesting fish early obviously has a very serious effect on cash flow and earnings. If you are harvesting the fish at 2.5 kilos instead of five kilos, the cost will be higher and the price lower.
"No-one is to blame for this problem. We will have to wait until the Q4 results to be able to more accurately estimate this issue."
Henning Lund, an analyst at Pareto Securities, who is forecasting a 5% hit to 2013 tonnages in Scotland, said: "The volume impact might be bigger, but it remains to see if this will be a significant problem next summer. Also we believe the farming industry is more prepared and has learned to deal better with this."
AGD was first reported in Scottish waters by the SSC at Lamlash on the island of Arran in October 2011, where it had killed 279,000 salmon.
Since then, a freedom of information request by anti-salmon-farm campaigners found that 29 farms reported infections between July and October of last year alone, as the disease spread north to the Western Isles, the Orkneys and now the Shetlands.
AGD attacks the fishes' gills, producing mucus which, if left untreated, can cause suffocation.
Grieg Seafood did not return calls in time for publication.
Meanwhile, Marine Harvest, the world's largest salmon farmer, last week reported an 85% drop in fourth-quarter core earnings due to the weak price of salmon. Earnings before interest and tax came in at £6.6m, well below the analysts' consensus £18m.
-
That pitiful story illustrates the sort of diseased cesspools that are planted in our oceans. It's a shame that we need to go to court to get the disease records.
I'm sure the pro feedlot boys look at this and say "but show me the science". This is a story of mostly the Scotland feedlots, however the same disease infected feedlots are planted in the middle of our west coast wild salmon. While science would confirm the effect, even a child can figure out that these feedlots are killing wild salmon.
-
So typical and so lame ... whenever the anti fish farmers are challenged with a question like dnibbles posed ie. show just one example of how farmed salmon have impacted indigenous salmon in BC, something irrelevant like the above postings are trotted out.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Chile; that used to be the default response.
As nibs said, deflect away ;D
-
So typical and so lame ... whenever the anti fish farmers are challenged with a question like dnibbles posed ie. show just one example of how farmed salmon have impacted indigenous salmon in BC, something irrelevant like the above postings are trotted out.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Chile; that used to be the default response.
As nibs said, deflect away ;D
Pick a part of course. ::)
-
A number of you post how great the industry is but how do you explain things like this? Does not seem to great to me. ???
Yes, Chris, fish both in the wild, in net-pen fish farms and in hatcheries are not 100% immune from pathogens. Land-based agriculture is also prone to pathogens. I guess they are not great either....Better start a boycott there also. If salmon farming ended tomorrow there would still be fish diseases. Many diseases like IHN have been here long before fish farming. Posting a story about a fish disease occurance does not mean that the aquaculture industry is being reckless. I find on these boards that many activists like to mention fish diseases, but do not have any idea about them other than to say they are bad for fish. To balance this story out you should explain how fish farms (Reference to BC would be nice and this point, Chris) test for diseases and work to minimize these outbreaks.
Chile used to be the default response until anti-fish farm activists realized that their fears abroad did not add up to millions of Atlantic Salmon on BC fish farms dying of ISA.
-
From the CBC
Salmon from a quarantined Nova Scotia aquaculture farm are now being moved to a fish plant in Blacks Harbour, N.B. for processing.
Cooke Aquaculture is the first company to process fish with infectious salmon anemia (ISA) under a new set of rules set by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.
According to the CFIA, ISA poses no threat to humans and are safe to consume.
About 240,000 salmon from Cooke Aquaculture's quarantined Coffin Island Farm near Liverpool, N.S. will be transported by tanker truck to New Brunswick in the coming weeks. The first shipments of fish were sent last week.
There is no treatment for ISA, which is fatal to fish and easily spreads throughout a population. The CFIA as taken steps to prevent contamination.
There has been a heavy presence of CFIA inspectors at stages throughout the transfer process and also at the Black's Harbour plant. Plant employees have had to wear special suits to avoid spreading contamination.
Nell Halse, a spokesperson for Cooke Aquaculture, said it's a big job.
"The plant has to be completely disinfected," said Halse. "The employees have to change gear and then the ISA fish are brought in and again — this is nothing to do with human health, the fish are perfectly safe to eat."
In fact, Halse said, the company is obligated to process and market the fish if possible because the government has to compensate salmon growers for fish that are culled because of disease.
Cooke has classifications under which the fish can be marketed.
Janice Harvey, who has been a critic of the industry since 1990, said disease is a byproduct of industrialized fish growing.
"If it's going to continue, then you're going to expect to have diseases and you're going to have to deal with diseased fish," she said.
An outbreak of ISA at a Cooke facility in Shelburne in February resulted in the company destroying 700,000 fish.
r
-
To be sold in your local Superstore...
Look for the specially labelled product: "Safe for human consumption, recommend you wear a special suit when preparing your fillet, so as to avoid contamination".
It should be flying off the shelves! ;D
-
fair enough..."guess work" seems a bit derogatory as a description...it was an attempt to describe statistically the discrepancy of fish counting and it's correlation to harvest forecasting.
Cohen does a good job discussing this topic. Please see the following link, but look specifically between Pg 113 to 184 (pre-season, in-season and post-season activities).
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol01_05.pdf#zoom=100
-
http://donstaniford.typepad.com/my-blog/2013/01/sunday-express-farms-turning-pristine-waters-to-toxic-toilets-.html
-
http://donstaniford.typepad.com/my-blog/2013/01/sunday-express-farms-turning-pristine-waters-to-toxic-toilets-.html
What a crock of .... Virtually every salmonid hatchery on the west coast uses formalin for treatments to combat fungus, including the adult steelhead now being held for broodstock at the Chilliwack River Hatchery. The small Cultus Lake sockeye hatchery program alone uses 45 gallons of 37% (full strength) of the stuff every fall.
Where do you think this formalin ends up?
More garbage from Staniford.
-
Chilliwack River = toxic toilet????
-
Chilliwack River = toxic toilet????
Nibs, I know you get my point but just in case my post is misconstrued by others, formalin is widely used in fish culture facilities, worldwide. Used properly it is considered safe and effective.
Staniford is just blowing smoke, again, claiming these treatments are creating “toxic toilets”
-
What a crock of .... Virtually every salmonid hatchery on the west coast uses formalin for treatments to combat fungus, including the adult steelhead now being held for broodstock at the Chilliwack River Hatchery. The small Cultus Lake sockeye hatchery program alone uses 45 gallons of 37% (full strength) of the stuff every fall.
Where do you think this formalin ends up?
Actually a lot of people think like this.....
Last fall I approached a fisherman who had finished his Tim Horton's coffee and tossed the cup on the bank. I approached him and asked if he was going to pick it up and his response was that it was a paper cup and he said over time it would deteriorate and disappear. I didn't give him a hard time, but I asked him if he participates in the Vedder cleanups and he said he doesn't. When I walked away I did notice that he picked it up. The reason the Vedder needs to be cleaned up is because of the many individuals dropping single paper cups, a bit of trash, an old mattress, etc.
People don't realize that every bit of crap we put in the water adds up and while we may not notice any effects, our kids, and their kids will notice the effects. Just like I'm not willing to dismiss someone dropping a Tim Horton's cup on the river bank, I'm not willing to accept that it's ok to dump 45 gallons of lethal chemical in the river, or for that matters the thousands of gallons of the various chemicals that are being dumped in the ocean.
-
Well af, you know the adage ... dilution is the solution to pollution. The City of Victoria has agreed with this idealogy for years.
If you're thinking about alternatives to using this stuff in fish cultural facilities, do some on line research ... UV light, ozonation, salt ... all with their problems, issues and, as always, $$$. The good news is there are FWR posters here who are well qualified to talk to this issue.
-
Nibs, I know you get my point but just in case my post is misconstrued by others, formalin is widely used in fish culture facilities, worldwide. Used properly it is considered safe and effective.
Staniford is just blowing smoke, again, claiming these treatments are creating “toxic toilets”
Sorry Dave, I did get your point, but you're right that I may have not been clear on what I was getting at.
Use of formalin according to guidelines in enhancement facilities, as well as other types of biological sample collection is considered safe and in the case of hatcheries will result in healthier, more robust fish. I would think even af would not argue that taking all measures to ensure fish released to the wild are healthy and disease free is a desirable approach????
-
Sorry Dave, I did get your point, but you're right that I may have not been clear on what I was getting at.
Use of formalin according to guidelines in enhancement facilities, as well as other types of biological sample collection is considered safe and in the case of hatcheries will result in healthier, more robust fish. I would think even af would not argue that taking all measures to ensure fish released to the wild are healthy and disease free is a desirable approach????
Too bad you are ignoring the cumulative effect of these types of chemicals.... Even in Dave's example of Victoria's lack of sewage treatment, the debate is not about the effects, it's about the cost.
The point that you boys won't acknowledge is that the reason this chemical is being used is because it's cheap. The same reasons are why feedlots put their pens in the ocean.
-
The same reasons are why feedlots put their pens in the ocean.
By your standards AF growing salmon in ocean net pens make a better product. Far less use of antibiotics and superior product that is less stresses and grown in a natural environment. ITs painful to watch you be a pro closed containment guy here knowing what standards you support for food production, just painful.
-
By your standards AF growing salmon in ocean net pens make a better product. Far less use of antibiotics and superior product that is less stresses and grown in a natural environment. ITs painful to watch you be a pro closed containment guy here knowing what standards you support for food production, just painful.
I have no idea how you got anything close to that from what I wrote.
I could care less where they put the pens as long as they get them out of the ocean. In either case I wouldn't eat the product.
-
I have no idea how you got anything close to that from what I wrote.
I could care less where they put the pens as long as they get them out of the ocean. In either case I wouldn't eat the product.
Hatcheries are not open net pens. They use closed containment technology, which you apparently support. Use of closed containment technology requires treatments to prevent fungal and disease outbreaks. It also requires effluent discharge.
You're really all over the map on this thread. Painful, but entertaining.
-
Hatcheries are not open net pens. They use closed containment technology, which you apparently support. Use of closed containment technology requires treatments to prevent fungal and disease outbreaks. It also requires effluent discharge.
You're really all over the map on this thread. Painful, but entertaining.
I appreciate that you are entertained, however if you read what I post, your comments may be more relevant.
-
Hatcheries are not open net pens. They use closed containment technology, which you apparently support. Use of closed containment technology requires treatments to prevent fungal and disease outbreaks. It also requires effluent discharge.
You're really all over the map on this thread. Painful, but entertaining.
Very entertaining.
-
Why should we boycott Feedlot salmon sold in grocery stores?
http://www.salmonfeedlotboycott.com/why-boycott/ (http://www.salmonfeedlotboycott.com/why-boycott/)
-
I have been following the participation on the petition above. The numbers haven't really budged for a few weeks. So I did some calculations add figured that for every 10000 people in BC, 7 have signed that petition. Then I realized it was a canada wide petition. Is it a north American wide petition? Looks like I really blew the stats on that one. Needless to say I am feeling the job security. ;D
-
http://www.georgiastrait.org/?q=node%2F274
-
http://www.georgiastrait.org/?q=node%2F274
1997, wow ... anything a bit more up to date? :D
-
Put the salmon farm in Salmon Arm, then they can't kill Sea Lions
.C. fish farm avoids charges over deaths of almost 70 sea lions and seals
By The Canadian PressJanuary 21, 2013
CAMPBELL RIVER, - Charges have been dropped against a B.C. salmon farming company after it reached a deal with the Department of Fisheries over the deaths of almost 70 sea lions and seals.
Sixty five sea lions and four seals became entangled and drowned in nets at Grieg Seafood B.C.'s Gold River farm in early 2010.
Instead of charges, Grieg has agreed to invest $100,000 in three projects, most of which will go towards the Nootka Sound Watershed Society for community education.
In the 10 years of operations before that, the company had never experienced such a downing, but Grieg's managing director, Steward Hawthorn, says the animal's behaviour changed for some reason in 2010.
Grieg installed additional anti-predator nets around its fish pens after the drownings to prevent more such lion deaths.
The company says it's also sharing its experience with other firms and has established a set of best practices in marine mammal management.
-
From this week.
http://youtu.be/gBLIts83k-g
-
Some nice looking hats there ... was that war paint on Eddie's face and, where was the sockeye from and was it previously frozen?
-
Some nice looking hats there ... was that war paint on Eddie's face and, where was the sockeye from and was it previously frozen?
So many questions Dave...... maybe you should start attending and then you'll know all the answers! ;D ;D
-
So many questions Dave...... maybe you should start attending and then you'll know all the answers! ;D ;D
I doubt I would be welcomed as you and most others who have been following this stuff know what I think of this stupidity. If Eddie Gardner really wants to save wild salmon he should be preaching conservation to the Sto-Lo bands, particularly Cheam, who blatantly fish even during obvious conservation concerns. But just wondering here af, why do you respond to questions asked of another site member, who was there filming this event?
Obviously the sockeye had been frozen and was most likely Alaskan as BC commies don't fish sockeye much anymore, save a few exceptions. So, bottom line is these protesters were comparing a fresh farmed Atlantic salmon to a sockeye of unknown origin, that had been caught sometime in the past and frozen, and was more expensive.
A no brainer to most consumers. Being a money specialist you have to understand this basic concept.
-
But just wondering here af, why do you respond to questions asked of another site member, who was there filming this event?
I checked the forum rules Dave, and couldn't find a rule suggesting I am not allowed to answer a question not addressed to me. If you find one please let me know. :D
-
The Pick a Part gang always have all the answers anyway. ;D ;D ;D
-
The Pick a Part gang always have all the answers anyway. ;D ;D ;D
....and apparently the "science" as well. ;D
-
It would have been far better to compare a wild Atlantic to a farmed Atlantic. What good is it to compare two different salmon species? Even an anty-feedlot person like myself cringes when I see people try to pull the wool over others eyes. We have the science, lets leave the BS out of it.
-
http://www.mychilliwacknews.com/blog/view/27902/1
Chilliwack, B.C – The Salmon Feedlot Boycott here in Chilliwack seems to be making ground with local companies regarding the type of salmon sold on its shelves or put on its menu’s.
Thursday afternoon saw the boycott at the Bravo Restaurant, not for the purpose of informing consumers of how bad the salmon was being sold, but instead to honor the restaurant for its pledge to only use local produce, environmentally sustainable products, and wild salmon.
Overwaitea Food Group has also decided to red-list open net farmed fish, instead stocking its shelves with the preferred wild salmon or salmon from land based closed containment feedlots. The decision to carry only wild salmon or salmon from closed containment feedlots was directed by David Suzuki, who supports the Salmon Feedlot Boycott movement.
This is tremendous support when you consider the Overwaitea Food Group is Western Canada’s largest food store chain, including PriceSmart, Save On Foods, Overwaitea Foods, Cooper’s Foods, Urban Fare and Bulkley Valley Wholesale serving communities in both B.C and Alberta.
Louie De Jaeger of Bravo restaurant here in Chilliwack has championed the cause of using environmentally stable products at their restaurant for a long time.
“Bravo decided in 2004 took the conscious decision that we were going to help serve sustainable food,” De Jaeger informs. “And if we were going to take part in anything wild it was going to be ethical.”
De Jaeger believes that those who are using the feedlots, spreading disease to wild salmon, are destroying what resource we are lucky to have out here.
De Jaeger also believes that the next step for those taking up the boycott’s cause need to rally against the suppliers. If the suppliers stop purchasing from those companies that sell feedlot salmon, the industry would have to change and government would take notice. As of right now he is a little disappointed that the Chilliwack-Fraser Canyon MP Mark Strahl isn’t visible around this worthwhile cause.
“He should be at meetings like this, he should be sending letters of support,” De Jaeger says. “What we’ve heard is absolutely nothing – nothing from him and nothing from this government. They’re part of the problem; they are not part of the solution whatsoever.”
De Jaeger’s had strong sentiments for the local and provincial government, echoing Eddie Gardiner’s idea in urging the people of Chilliwack to back a candidate in the upcoming election that will be a champion for this cause and environmental sustainability as a whole.
Eddie Gardiner of the Salmon Feedlot Boycott presented Louie De Jaeger with a certificate and a window decal in recognition of Bravo Restaurant’s business leadership in supporting environmental sustainability. De Jaeger was honored with the award, echoing once again how important it is to use sustainable products from ethical sources.
With the provincial election two-months away, the theme of these gatherings has turned to making their position known to potential incoming politicians.
Rex Weyler, who has served as a Director of the original Greenpeace, was on hand to support the cause he has been behind for many decades. He made note to the problem that continually causes environmentalists anxiety.
“The people that are elected, that are supposed to be working for us, as Louis said, the people that are supposed to be working for us, that we’ve elected, that we are paying with our tax dollars are instead of looking after us and our interests and the interests of our children and the future and our environment and our ecosystem, they are looking after and serving the interests of the largest corporations on the planet,” Weyler says.
Weyler went on to say to the 20 or so people in attendance that in all of his experience the only thing that has every stood in front of this ecological destruction is the people. He maintained that change will come if you keep fighting for change to save the communities that could potentially be destroyed if the status quo remains.
The Salmon Feedlot Boycott is going to continue honoring those businesses that are using environmentally sustainable products, with the next honoree being Jacksons Steak & Grill House. The boycott will also be celebrating Canada Water Week, along with the WaterWealth Project.
The first event takes place Monday, March 18th at 6:30 p.m. with a screening of “Salmon Confidential” at the WaterWealth Project Office, 45668 Storey Avenue in Chilliwack.
-
Are we boycotting the Washington State Atlantic feedlots also Chris? That would be awesome news.
-
Are we boycotting the Washington State Atlantic feedlots also Chris? That would be awesome news.
One would think all ocean located fish farms, pop them onto land based operations will be a good start don't you agree?
Also, welcome to the debate. ;D ;D
-
Are we boycotting the Washington State Atlantic feedlots also Chris? That would be awesome news.
http://juneauempire.com/stories/121702/sta_salmonboycott.shtml
-
Thank you. I would like to see my donations going to get those Washington feedlots out of the Pacific first. Those infested fish could infect ours on their migration north. Dr. Morton should, and better get on top of this before it is to late.
-
http://juneauempire.com/stories/121702/sta_salmonboycott.shtml
News from 2002? Come on TB. We can make a better show than that, cant we? Get those Washington Atlantic feedlots out of the Pacific. Our wild salmon depend on it :)
-
One would think all ocean located fish farms, pop them onto land based operations will be a good start don't you agree?
It would be so nice to see DR. Morton's take on this idea of getting the Washington State Atlantic feedlots out of the Pacific.
-
It would be so nice to see DR. Morton's take on this idea of getting the Washington State Atlantic feedlots out of the Pacific.
A good job for you to maybe take on ;D ;D, one can only do so much at one time.
-
A good job for you to maybe take on ;D ;D, one can only do so much at one time.
Perhaps you and I can work on this one together :). I think it would save our wild salmon for generations to come. It also would not be all that hard for Dr. Morton to include the Washington Atlantic feedlots in our crusade to rid the Pacific of them. Is that not what we want?
-
Perhaps you and I can work on this one together :). I think it would save our wild salmon for generations to come. It also would not be all that hard for Dr. Morton to include the Washington Atlantic feedlots in our crusade to rid the Pacific of them. Is that not what we want?
I personally have enough on my plate and as I enter my 7th decade I donot have the energy I once had, we need to leave battles like you suggest to younger folk like you. ;D ;D ;D Of course if one tries to do much they will just burn out. As well it is always good when people suggest things need to be done that they roll up their sleeves and take it on.
-
I personally have enough on my plate and as I enter my 7th decade I donot have the energy I once had, we need to leave battles like you suggest to younger folk like you. ;D ;D ;D Of course if one tries to do much they will just burn out. As well it is always good when people suggest things need to be done that they roll up their sleeves and take it on.
Well said :). I am up there in age also Chris. Perhaps DR. Morton or one of her followers can take over my idea. :)
-
Bob, if you are close to the age of Chris I suggest not holding your breath waiting for Morton to say anything negative about US fisheries, Alaskan salmon ranching especially. It won't happen. Ever.
-
Well said :). I am up there in age also Chris. Perhaps DR. Morton or one of her followers can take over my idea. :)
You and Dave will have to donate more money to the cause. ;D ;D ;D
-
From yesterday. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu7Rm7DU-tE&feature=share&list=UU_4LtEFjHj-ulBHuoq6COmQ
-
Bob, considering that Ms Morton is turning to US politicians for support for her cause I highly doubt she is going to do much to cause any controversy in Washington State and definitely not Alaska. Protesting US jobs (even if these are in aquaculture) won't go down well with Congresspeople and Senators immediately south of the border. Some pretty scary economic things happening south of the border. Morton needs support from US politicians to help her with any boycott because most sales of Canadian farmed salmon go south of the border. It is in her best interest to make farms in Canada (specifically in BC) look like the culprits and have Washington State fish farms and Alaska salmon ranching look great. American support is key - Canadian not so much. Do you ever hear Morton say anything negative about Washington State fish farms or Alaskan salmon ranching? Sounds like politics? Damn right it is...lol.....and you may of thought that only government did this. Fish biology has nothing to do with it.
-
You and Dave will have to donate more money to the cause. ;D ;D ;D
I have donated my share Chis. I expect a return. Getting the west coast US Atlantic feedlots out of the Pacific had better be in DR. Morton's and our old age picture also. After all, we want our wild salmon for generations to come.
-
http://www.mychilliwacknews.com/blog/view/28005/1
-
http://www.mychilliwacknews.com/blog/view/28005/1
Thanks for that Chris. One wonders what salmon Brad Read, owner of Jacksons does indeed sell. Did Eddie ask that question?
No, of course not. If farmed Atlantics are not on the menu that leaves frozen BC wild salmon (when was the last commercial fishery on those??) or Alaskan ranched salmon, again a frozen product.
Bullfeathers buddy ;)
-
Thanks for that Chris. One wonders what salmon Brad Read, owner of Jacksons does indeed sell. Did Eddie ask that question?
No, of course not. If farmed Atlantics are not on the menu that leaves frozen BC wild salmon (when was the last commercial fishery on those??) or Alaskan ranched salmon, again a frozen product.
Bullfeathers buddy ;)
I told you should have come, then you can could ask all these quetions. :D :D :D
-
2 video clips from today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqr9isO9Eec&feature=share&list=UU_4LtEFjHj-ulBHuoq6COmQ
http://youtu.be/yLYDbqtBhqg
-
I told you should have come, then you can could ask all these quetions. :D :D :D
Keep working on him Chris..... It's just a matter of time and he'll be calling them "feedlots" and "cesspools" as well. ;D ;D
-
http://www.mychilliwacknews.com/blog/view/28612/1
-
So, are you officially back as an anti? ;)
Hard to stay away, was it? We did miss your postings of stuff like this and really, who can top Fast Eddy? ... plus your disciples were folding like the Canucks, lol!
-
Chris comes on here only when there is new and important stuff to make you feedlot boys aware of... He believes in saying stuff just once.
We could probably learn a lot from him as it's becoming pretty obvious that you feedlot boys are so ingrained in the brainwashing you've been exposed to, that regardless of how many times we state the obvious, you still think you're right.
-
http://www.theprogress.com/news/215106641.html
-
Chris comes on here only when there is new and important stuff to make you feedlot boys aware of... He believes in saying stuff just once.
We could probably learn a lot from him as it's becoming pretty obvious that you feedlot boys are so ingrained in the brainwashing you've been exposed to, that regardless of how many times we state the obvious, you still think you're right.
Morton is my god, Morton is my god, Morton is my god...... :o
-
http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/technology/another+grocery+store+protest/8750958/story.html
"In a press release issued Wednesday, the group said a Norwegian scientist, Dr. Anne-Lise Birch Monson, has raised concerns about contaminants in farmed salmon that have a negative effect on brain development and are associated with autism, ADD/ADHD and reduced IQ."
-
Better boycott the 1.7 billion farmed salmon Alaska raises each year as well :)
-
You've been eating too much farmed salmon bawb. No comparison there.
.....why do I get the feeling you never held a fishing rod in your life...... :-\
-
You've been eating too much farmed salmon bawb.
Probably eating that stuff ever since he stopped buying sockeye over the fence.....