Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: dave c on September 20, 2012, 09:09:43 PM
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>:( I witnessed a some idiot today at the train bridge just reefing on his rod every 5 seconds on his retrieve. I watched in horror for about 3hours as every one around him seemed oblivious or just didn't want to confront him. This blatant display of unsportsmanship was very disturbing..........and unable to take it anymore I had to speak up. With some very colorful words I told him that he was a loser and his snagging attempts were not only illegal, and classless but was spoiling my day on the river. He basically told me to mind his own business. Shortly thereafter the poor excuse for a human being snagged a gorgeous 20lb spring. Everyone i spoke to on the bar confirmed that it was foul hooked in the tail. He brought it a couple hundred yards downstream beached, and killed it. I tried to rally the troops but sadly everyone around me said wait a couple weeks and it will be rampant. Being new to the area i wasn"t prepared for what i saw. I was told that there weren't too many fisheries officers around, which seems a shame. I know it seems like a long shot, but i think us sportsmen should rally together and protect our fishery from these idiots..........................strength in numbers............maybe if enough of us speak up these dummies will get the idea and perhaps grow a conscience.
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It is sickening and its a sad reality on the Vedder. However I dont see allot of people killing fish snagged in the tail. I would have been right beside him when he brought it to shore than released the fish before he had a chance to bonk it.
He is what we call a "RIPPER" Cast, drift, RIP. They are sickening individuals. My advice is stay away from the heavily populated areas and you wont see much of this. I like to have an enjoyable day on the water so I stay away from the RIPPER areas.
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I avoid the busy areas like the plague, sure the snaggers get to handle lots of fish but they end up spooking what is left in the run for the rest of us. Best to call him in and move on,or offer some advice maybe teach a new technique, who knows maybe he is a newbie and doesn't know any better.
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The best advice that I herd of a CO giving was to simple phone the RAPP line. Each call is logged and the more calls they get for a certain area the more that area will be visited by not only the CO's but also DFO officers.
Now if you do not know this number here it is. Dial Toll Free 1-877-952-7277, or on your cell #7277, now every one should program this into the cell phones and call in what you witness and make sure you give the location of where this is happening.
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I bet when he gets home, he will tell his wife, kids, coworkers and friends that he "caught' this big fish and everyone will think he is such a great fisherman!!!!
People like that will never learn.
I just hope one day they realized that what they did was wrong and fish the proper way.
Playing a fish hooked in the mouth is a way better fight compared to dead weight draggin you down the run....
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Sad to say but it's nothing new on the vedder... was fishing the lower this morning and seen a few guys bottom bouncing and snagging fish for hours one guy was even fishing with a barbed hook on for who knows how long shocking some of the stuff you come across while enjoying a nice day on the river
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>:( I witnessed a some idiot today at the train bridge just reefing on his rod every 5 seconds on his retrieve. I watched in horror for about 3hours as every one around him seemed oblivious or just didn't want to confront him. This blatant display of unsportsmanship was very disturbing..........and unable to take it anymore I had to speak up. With some very colorful words I told him that he was a loser and his snagging attempts were not only illegal, and classless but was spoiling my day on the river. He basically told me to mind his own business. Shortly thereafter the poor excuse for a human being snagged a gorgeous 20lb spring. Everyone i spoke to on the bar confirmed that it was foul hooked in the tail. He brought it a couple hundred yards downstream beached, and killed it. I tried to rally the troops but sadly everyone around me said wait a couple weeks and it will be rampant. Being new to the area i wasn"t prepared for what i saw. I was told that there weren't too many fisheries officers around, which seems a shame. I know it seems like a long shot, but i think us sportsmen should rally together and protect our fishery from these idiots..........................strength in numbers............maybe if enough of us speak up these dummies will get the idea and perhaps grow a conscience.
I,also witnessed this in the canal today. some old man was bottom fishing ripping his line every second. Pretty sad to see.
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The best advice that I herd of a CO giving was to simple phone the RAPP line. Each call is logged and the more calls they get for a certain area the more that area will be visited by not only the CO's but also DFO officers.
Now if you do not know this number here it is. Dial Toll Free 1-877-952-7277, or on your cell #7277, now every one should program this into the cell phones and call in what you witness and make sure you give the location of where this is happening.
Thanks Geff, just added the number into my phone. Hopefully all that read this will do the same and we continue to be diligent as a whole and report every time we see an offence like this!
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Good thing this isn't a pink year. You'd never fish the vedder again!
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I'm new to fishing in BC and I find it rather ironic that you need a law degree to understand all the rules, with specific details for all the species and sizes that change for each rivers or even sections of rivers and so forth and then lots of morons like this go around snagging and no one is controlling.
Seriously if you are not checking the Vedder in fall what are you checking? one officer doing a pass of the Vedder during the weekend can probably make up his entire month salary in fines and if he does a pass every weekend it would start deterring people from using those techniques.
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I'm new to fishing in BC and I find it rather ironic that you need a law degree to understand all the rules, with specific details for all the species and sizes that change for each rivers or even sections of rivers and so forth and then lots of morons like this go around snagging and no one is controlling.
Seriously if you are not checking the Vedder in fall what are you checking? one officer doing a pass of the Vedder during the weekend can probably make up his entire month salary in fines and if he does a pass every weekend it would start deterring people from using those techniques.
Case reports... they take a long time... as I'm finding out right now...
In all honestly, a couple tickets is probably a weeks worth of work, they just don't have enough officers around to do it, and not enough funding to hire more officers.
Most CO's are dealing with the thousands of bear calls they get per year.
Most DFO are probably caught up in FN fisheries, or like I said, in the office doing paper work for the tickets they do write.
They should do what they do out here on the island.
Send out different CO's, DFO's fishing without any uniform, etc. Look just like another fisherman, keep their limit, and watch for major infractions and hand out a couple dozen tickets at a time (then they can do their office work) while they send out another officer the next week. Kinda keeps a lot of the poaching on the stamp at bay, especially since you don't know if the guy beside you is a CO/DFO or not.
Btw I should mention I knew a couple DFO on the Vedder... once a week they would go out undercover, one guy would go fishing without uniform on below a major infraction run (such as train bridge, etc) and radio up to his partner in the parking lot when a guy was leaving that had committed an infraction with description, what he did, etc. His partner would write tickets to the guys as they walked into the parking lot... so it does occur, you might just not see it. Definitely important to call as much as possible, because they build up these major infraction holes based on number of calls from certain areas or based on what they see.
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Case reports... they take a long time... as I'm finding out right now...
In all honestly, a couple tickets is probably a weeks worth of work, they just don't have enough officers around to do it, and not enough funding to hire more officers.
Most CO's are dealing with the thousands of bear calls they get per year.
Most DFO are probably caught up in FN fisheries, or like I said, in the office doing paper work for the tickets they do write.
They should do what they do out here on the island.
Send out different CO's, DFO's fishing without any uniform, etc. Look just like another fisherman, keep their limit, and watch for major infractions and hand out a couple dozen tickets at a time (then they can do their office work) while they send out another officer the next week. Kinda keeps a lot of the poaching on the stamp at bay, especially since you don't know if the guy beside you is a CO/DFO or not.
Btw I should mention I knew a couple DFO on the Vedder... once a week they would go out undercover, one guy would go fishing without uniform on below a major infraction run (such as train bridge, etc) and radio up to his partner in the parking lot when a guy was leaving that had committed an infraction with description, what he did, etc. His partner would write tickets to the guys as they walked into the parking lot... so it does occur, you might just not see it. Definitely important to call as much as possible, because they build up these major infraction holes based on number of calls from certain areas or based on what they see.
Good to hear that there is some action going on.
I've grabbed the number for the RAPP hopefully I can be of some help.
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Wonder if the undercover CO's require a licence to fish ? ;)
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If they need funding just go to any lower mainland stocked lake or pier and there is always someone who breaks the law. Use that money to fund salmon fishery officers
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My suggestions:
1 - take photos of snaggers and poachers with your cellular phone, post them on here so we can publicly shame them, ie Vancouver Riots
2 - Phone and report the RAPP line
3 - good on you for calling this guy out, but we need more people reported, if we don't report you can't expect CO/DFO to pick up enforcement
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Recreational fishery is OUR fishery. We are the ones on the river every day. Do not wait for the CO's to take back OUR fishery. It is up to us. We discuss, we educate and promote spotsman-like fishery. Yes, we should all report unsportsman-like activity on OUR rivers, but bottom line, we are there.
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>:( I witnessed a some idiot today at the train bridge just reefing on his rod every 5 seconds on his retrieve. I watched in horror for about 3hours as every one around him seemed oblivious or just didn't want to confront him. This blatant display of unsportsmanship was very disturbing..........and unable to take it anymore I had to speak up. With some very colorful words I told him that he was a loser and his snagging attempts were not only illegal, and classless but was spoiling my day on the river. He basically told me to mind his own business. Shortly thereafter the poor excuse for a human being snagged a gorgeous 20lb spring. Everyone i spoke to on the bar confirmed that it was foul hooked in the tail. He brought it a couple hundred yards downstream beached, and killed it. I tried to rally the troops but sadly everyone around me said wait a couple weeks and it will be rampant. Being new to the area i wasn"t prepared for what i saw. I was told that there weren't too many fisheries officers around, which seems a shame. I know it seems like a long shot, but i think us sportsmen should rally together and protect our fishery from these idiots..........................strength in numbers............maybe if enough of us speak up these dummies will get the idea and perhaps grow a conscience.
Not sure using "colorful words" will help. Dude probably thinks you're crazy.
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Good on you for calling this guy out. A lot of people out there and on the internet dont have the courage to do what you did. Your actions can go along way and maybe just maybe somebody else will follow in your foot steps. I stay away from the gong spots because I know exactly whats going on.
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Good on you for calling this guy out. A lot of people out there and on the internet dont have the courage to do what you did. Your actions can go along way and maybe just maybe somebody else will follow in your foot steps. I stay away from the gong spots because I know exactly whats going on.
Not sure if courage would be the correct word here. To many unpredictable people, which seems amplified amongst poachers, to be calling them all out.
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Calling RAPP is best but it doesn't hurt to shame these guys on the river, most go away because they know they are doing wrong...
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Calling RAPP is best but it doesn't hurt to shame these guys on the river, most go away because they know they are doing wrong...
...and some will chase you down with the intent to hurt...
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...and some will chase you down with the intent to hurt...
That is what makes it courageous to do do. If you were sure the guy(s) would not react violently then it wouldn't take any courage at all. I am not recommending you do it, just saying you would be courageous if you did.
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Every year this topic repeats itself, and sadly, things are far worse today than they were five or ten years ago.
As a result, I am starting to highly doubt the effectiveness of this and other fishing forums in deterring the behavior you witnessed.
I have chosen to stay away from the river until water comes up and many more miles of fishable water become available. As it is, fish are concentrated in a very limited number of deeper sections during the day, making them an easy target for the unscrupulous.
I never thought I would say this during salmon season, but given the rampant increase in questionable individuals on the river these days, interior lakes with their big trout sound like a much more gratifying alternative.
Short of a huge increase in enforcement (which won't happen because fish snagging is very low on the Govt's scale of priorities), the only solution I see to this situation is to close the river to all retention at least until the rains bring the water levels up. Without a legal option to keep fish, at least 90% of the snaggers would stay home.
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Short of a huge increase in enforcement (which won't happen because fish snagging is very low on the Govt's scale of priorities), the only solution I see to this situation is to close the river to all retention at least until the rains bring the water levels up. Without a legal option to keep fish, at least 90% of the snaggers would stay home.
Unfortunately you would penalize all the legitimate fishermen out there...... and there are still more of them than there are of the snaggers.
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Take photos with your Iphone's of the snaggers and let's publicly shame these guys. Nothing else seems to work.
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Unfortunately you would penalize all the legitimate fishermen out there...... and there are still more of them than there are of the snaggers.
Legitimate fishermen should be concerned about the resource and not only think about the meat they can take home. "Penalize" is a bit of a harsh word unless one's only motivation is to get a few fish to take home. The greed and sense of entitlement to the fish is what is spoiling it for everyone.
If I had it my way, the lower Vedder would be C&R fly fishing only-year round. ;D
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Take photos with your Iphone's of the snaggers and let's publicly shame these guys. Nothing else seems to work.
I don't think its a good advise, cause i saw a guys Iphone that ended up in the river.
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Every year this topic repeats itself, and sadly, things are far worse today than they were five or ten years ago.
As a result, I am starting to highly doubt the effectiveness of this and other fishing forums in deterring the behavior you witnessed.
I have chosen to stay away from the river until water comes up and many more miles of fishable water become available. As it is, fish are concentrated in a very limited number of deeper sections during the day, making them an easy target for the unscrupulous.
I never thought I would say this during salmon season, but given the rampant increase in questionable individuals on the river these days, interior lakes with their big trout sound like a much more gratifying alternative.
Short of a huge increase in enforcement (which won't happen because fish snagging is very low on the Govt's scale of priorities), the only solution I see to this situation is to close the river to all retention at least until the rains bring the water levels up. Without a legal option to keep fish, at least 90% of the snaggers would stay home.
Problem is even with higher water levels it's not going to change the way these people choose to fish. I have no problem with a C&R fishery,due to the fact that i love the sport and being out there. Being able to keep what you are catching in any kind of condition, is just a bonus . The only way is to educate and enforce proper regulations, perhaps maybe make a few additional regs for the vedder on maybe leader length or hook size.
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Problem is even with higher water levels it's not going to change the way these people choose to fish. I have no problem with a C&R fishery,due to the fact that i love the sport and being out there. Being able to keep what you are catching in any kind of condition, is just a bonus . The only way is to educate and enforce proper regulations, perhaps maybe make a few additional regs for the vedder on maybe leader length or hook size.
What i was suggesting in my original post was that if when i first confronted the snagger with his illegal techniques .... had a few other guys there backed me up possibly the guy would feel uncomfortable enough to actually fish properly....or leave.
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What i was suggesting in my original post was that if when i first confronted the snagger with his illegal techniques .... had a few other guys there backed me up possibly the guy would feel uncomfortable enough to actually fish properly....or leave.
I'll always have your back if I am there...and it is a BIG back. ;)
But you be careful on your own out there. As others have suggested, the best approach is ORR (observe, record, report).
But sadly, intentional snagging is not even on the list of the most common offenses - as that would make the Fraser flossing fishery illegal:
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/publications/docs/orr-ons-eng.htm
Until it is unequivocally banned by means of clearly worded regulations, fishing with long leaders and bouncing weights continues to be a legal method.
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Tks Milo much appreciated. This guy was a scrawny little asian guy (not much threat) I wouldn't have confronted just any one..... I'm sure he was more intimidated than I was.........that was until my wife found out I called someone out ................. THEN I feared for my safety.
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But sadly, intentional snagging is not even on the list of the most common offenses - as that would make the Fraser flossing fishery illegal:
Until it is unequivocally banned by means of clearly worded regulations, fishing with long leaders and bouncing weights continues to be a legal method.
When are they going to wake up and call this method what it actually should be, a harvest for sockeye salmon. Anything other than sockeye caught by the method of bottom bouncing should be released.Once you have your limit of sockeye you either have to change your method of fishing or leave,this will also help with the congestion on the more accessible bars. Or make it so bottom bouncing is only legal on the Fraser during the period in which the sockeye are open, making this method illegal on any other system in the area. I was able to catch around 2 dozen sockeye on the vedder this July short floating cured shrimp with a depth of no longer than 3 feet from the bottom of my float to the hook. All of which were hooked in the mouth and released unharmed to carry on with their business. I was watching a guy fish the other night he had a leader of no longer than 2 feet, however he had about 10 feet between the float and his swivel. The run he was fishing was maybe 6 or 7 feet deep at the most,so he was therefore bottom bouncing with a float on. He got into a couple of fish they were both snagged and he let them go.Now if he was short floating they may have been caught in the mouth, and he could have very well been able to take them home see the difference.
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This guy was a scrawny little asian guy (not much threat)
It was my first spring of the season! Go easy on me...
I'm not sure what everyone's problem is. Snag this, snag that.
Under the current low water condition and sunny weather, these fish clearly do not bite! Just like sockeye salmon in the murky Fraser River, they will not bite and the only way to catch them is to line these fish with your hook near the bottom. You may wonder how sporting it is. Well it's not, this is a harvest of fish that have been raised at the hatchery and I am only keeping what I am legally allowed to keep, therefore no regulations are broken and people should just go out and enjoy the river. I even have a float on there and pencil lead instead of a bouncing betty, what more do you want me to do? You say short floating with roe? Well I don't plan to get up at 4am just so I can get the few bites at dawn. Short floating right now is like bar fishing on the Fraser River, you get perhaps half a dozen chances per outing. I'm there to catch fish, not to enjoy the scenery.
Right? ;D
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30749.msg292202#msg292202
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It is very true as long as you are fishing within legal means there is no problem at all. However all i was trying to get at was from my own personal experiences,sure you may have more hookups but the chances of foul hooking is greater. When short floating i have found that the chance of fouling the the fish is much less, which increases my chances of being able to keep the fish that i am able to get to bite. And sure a lot has to do with the fact i only have a 5 min drive to the river, so i have the luxury of a little more sleep and do not have to pay much in the way of gas to get there. So the pleasure of having to justify going to the river and not bringing home fish to the wife isn't as bad for me. Don't get me wrong it's not like i have never done it myself but that is what this is all about, being out there learning new things . I do not judge people when out on the river, because quite frankly if there is no laws broken then why should i care. I just enjoy being out there doing something that i love to do.
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It was my first spring of the season! Go easy on me...
I'm not sure what everyone's problem is. Snag this, snag that.
Under the current low water condition and sunny weather, these fish clearly do not bite! Just like sockeye salmon in the murky Fraser River, they will not bite and the only way to catch them is to line these fish with your hook near the bottom. You may wonder how sporting it is. Well it's not, this is a harvest of fish that have been raised at the hatchery and I am only keeping what I am legally allowed to keep, therefore no regulations are broken and people should just go out and enjoy the river. I even have a float on there and pencil lead instead of a bouncing betty, what more do you want me to do? You say short floating with roe? Well I don't plan to get up at 4am just so I can get the few bites at dawn. Short floating right now is like bar fishing on the Fraser River, you get perhaps half a dozen chances per outing. I'm there to catch fish, not to enjoy the scenery.
Right? ;D
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30749.msg292202#msg292202
Hey Rodney. You got good sense of humor. But some people will take your comment seriously :D
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Rod your videos have taught me much. If all fishermen had your talent and character we wouldn't have to deal with idiots like the one i encountered. Race certainly is not an issue here as i am sure there are yahoos of all races out there. I was just pointing out that this guy wasn't much of a physical threat as others feared that i was careless in calling this guy out. I was hoping others would speak up also when I did. Unfortunately it didn't happen. Hoping to see you on the river some day to shake your hand. You are a gentleman and a true sportsman. ;)
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When are they going to wake up and call this method what it actually should be, a harvest for sockeye salmon. Anything other than sockeye caught by the method of bottom bouncing should be released.Once you have your limit of sockeye you either have to change your method of fishing or leave,this will also help with the congestion on the more accessible bars. Or make it so bottom bouncing is only legal on the Fraser during the period in which the sockeye are open, making this method illegal on any other system in the area. I was able to catch around 2 dozen sockeye on the vedder this July short floating cured shrimp with a depth of no longer than 3 feet from the bottom of my float to the hook. All of which were hooked in the mouth and released unharmed to carry on with their business. I was watching a guy fish the other night he had a leader of no longer than 2 feet, however he had about 10 feet between the float and his swivel. The run he was fishing was maybe 6 or 7 feet deep at the most,so he was therefore bottom bouncing with a float on. He got into a couple of fish they were both snagged and he let them go.Now if he was short floating they may have been caught in the mouth, and he could have very well been able to take them home see the difference.
Hahaha that was funny
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Ooops sorry was trying to inert Rodney's post
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Wonder if the undercover CO's require a licence to fish ? ;)
He is a fisher too. ;D
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Fished the "Blue Cup" today and it was a pleasure to see all 6 to 8 anglers fishing in a method that fishing was attended to be.
Mind you, only Toon was able to get one, a chum when I was there for around 90 minutes.
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You should be fishing the Canuck run :)
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You should be fishing the Canuck run :)
Where is that in the closed area? ;D ;D
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Rod your videos have taught me much. If all fishermen had your talent and character we wouldn't have to deal with idiots like the one i encountered. Race certainly is not an issue here as i am sure there are yahoos of all races out there. I was just pointing out that this guy wasn't much of a physical threat as others feared that i was careless in calling this guy out. I was hoping others would speak up also when I did. Unfortunately it didn't happen. Hoping to see you on the river some day to shake your hand. You are a gentleman and a true sportsman. ;)
Thanks. Although my last post was mainly intended to be humorous, it represents the attitude of a good percentage of users who participate in our river recreational fisheries. When the recreational fishing community has decided to allow this behaviour on the Fraser River and introduce it to participants who have not experienced what fishing is really about, we cannot be too surprised that the same type of harvest method has been applied to other fisheries in smaller tributaries. You can invest in a few more dozens of enforcement officers on the Chilliwack River, you can educate, you can film and "shame" the people, you can get yourself into a fist fight, nothing will ever improve unless two events occur - A clear distinction between allowable fishing methods in the Fraser River sockeye salmon fishery and other fisheries, and a change in attitude among users in this recreational fishing community.
Very little enforcement applies to the Chilliwack River for a few reasons. It is a heavily stocked fishery that allows users to retain artificially planted fish. Federal fishery officers have to patrol and enforce three sectors. In September and October, most of the effort concentrates on the Fraser River where endangered stocks are present and illegal netting takes place. Provincial conservation officers are busy in the bush checking hunters. What may seem illegal to you on the Chilliwack River, is not as enforceable for an officer as you may think. An user fishing with a float and has the float depth adjusted way beyond the river depth, yanking the rod randomly whenever the float goes down because the hook is dragging onto something, foul hooking fish at times when those random yanks hit something, releasing them as regulations required, but keeping the ones hooked around the mouth. These actions may seem completely unethical to you, they will not result in a fine because no regulations seem to have been broken, even though the user may or may not know that intentional snagging is being demonstrated. If the above scenario should be penalized, then every single person who is out there on the Fraser River doing the same thing with a bouncing betty would already have been fined.
Some individuals will choose to retain a snagged fish. Again, in this case it is illegal, but it is a ridiculously difficult incident to penalize. The officer would need to be present and observe the person committing the act before issuing the ticket. Although it may seem like many snagged fish are retained, it actually takes forever to see a person committing this act. No officers are going to stand at a spot for hours to issue a $100 ticket.
Experienced anglers should keep in mind that the Chilliwack River is the most heavily used recreational river and participants are from all skill levels, age groups and ethnic backgrounds. A large percentage of users, especially on weekends, know very little about fishing for salmon in rivers. You can read as much as you want on the internet and books, but it still comes down to trying it out, make mistakes and hopefully learn. Many people, while new, are in fact eager to learn and do the right thing. The problem is, they can watch and learn the wrong thing from those who think they know what they are doing, but actually don't. They can be lucky enough to meet an experienced angler who is willing to share the knowledge. Of course, some may just want to catch a fish and couldn't care less about learning at all because they only get to fish once or twice per year. If you consider yourself experienced and want to improve the fishery, don't blame the government, don't assume everyone out there is a poacher, don't be negative and confrontational. Have empathy, be observant and distinguish those who are willing to learn and who intend to poach.
If you hang around the busy spots, you will obviously come across individuals who might ruin your day. Keep that in mind because the outcome of your trip depends on it. Greet others around you at the run, strike up a conversation if they wish to. Assist them when they are bringing in a fish and needing a hand, they almost always want you to release it for them when a snagged fish is in your hands. Don't force the way you fish on others if they obviously have no idea what they are doing, it'd just ruin everyone's day, including yours. Teach them by your actions, catch lots of fish. If they ask, kindly explain to them why you are able to trigger some bites. If they are skeptical, consider yourself lucky because dredging along the bottom rarely intercept a good coho salmon compared to those who know how to target them specifically.
The bottom line is, when you're going fishing, you're not going to a war zone, you're going to a playground for big and small kids.
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Thank you rodney , very well said.
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Thank you rodney , very well said.
X2
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The bottom line is, when you're going fishing, you're not going to a war zone, you're going to a playground for big and small kids.
Good post Rodney, and the last line is the Best !!! ;D :D ;D
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Unfortunately it will not stop as long is people fish as there will be people that want a fish at any cost and use any way they can catch them.
You have people that continue to dump garbage even when there is a garbage bag within a feet of where they throw down a coffee cup etc., no fine line on this as everyone will admit this is a no no but people are doing this as I type. ::)
All you can do as Rodney and others do on this forum does to try to educate people to the correct and rewarding way to catch a fish.
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I personelly think you should be allowed to kill one a year ( maybe buy a tag ), hang them in a tree and the rest will listen! :o
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This guy was a scrawny little asian guy (not much threat) ... I'm sure he was more intimidated than I was
Apparently there have been stabbings over spots on some of the Fraser bars. When you throw weapons into the mix size starts meaning less. Also, he may be a martial arts master (no stereotyping intended) so I wouldn't be so quick to judge his level of intimidation.
An user fishing with a float and has the float depth adjusted way beyond the river depth, yanking the rod randomly whenever the float goes down because the hook is dragging onto something, foul hooking fish at times when those random yanks hit something, releasing them as regulations required, but keeping the ones hooked around the mouth. These actions may seem completely unethical to you, they will not result in a fine because no regulations seem to have been broken, even though the user may or may not know that intentional snagging is being demonstrated.
IMO, in this case a quick "education session" could be implemented by a CO, after which the angler would receive a ticket if caught again (at this point it'd clearly be intentional snagging). You'd think the angler would clue in after not being able to set the hook in the mouth time after time, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
If the above scenario should be penalized, then every single person who is out there on the Fraser River doing the same thing with a bouncing betty would already have been fined.
As has been suggested, the lack of enforcement may be due to lack of resources. Most people out on the Fraser aren't reefing on their rods every 2 seconds, let alone every cast, making such enforcement a low priority (if it's all about bringing in the $$).
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Great post Rod I enjoyed the read
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I knew zabber was trolling around on this one. I thought you were going to defend that its not intentionally snagging fish if its around the mouth? Theres no differance between snagging a fish in the mouth then snagging it in the belly or tail. The fish didnt strike there fore it has been snagged intentionally. When are you going to learn zabber?
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Apparently there have been stabbings over spots on some of the Fraser bars. When you throw weapons into the mix size starts meaning less. Also, he may be a martial arts master (no stereotyping intended) so I wouldn't be so quick to judge his level of intimidation.
IMO, in this case a quick "education session" could be implemented by a CO, after which the angler would receive a ticket if caught again (at this point it'd clearly be intentional snagging). You'd think the angler would clue in after not being able to set the hook in the mouth time after time, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
As has been suggested, the lack of enforcement may be due to lack of resources. Most people out on the Fraser aren't reefing on their rods every 2 seconds, let alone every cast, making such enforcement a low priority (if it's all about bringing in the $$).
And that would be you reefing on your rod every 2 seconds?
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I knew zabber was trolling around on this one.
Says the guy trying to start up the flossing debate...
But okay, I'll bite:
The fish didnt strike there fore it has been snagged intentionally.
There's no reg stating that the fish needs to strike. That's why people floss; they can hook fish legally without having to illicit a bite. Some argue it's a skillful angling method while others argue it's unsportsmanlike and/or unethical. If you're accidentally foul hooking >50% of your fish I'd think you're committing an infraction, but I've never heard of anyone ticketed for bottom bouncing the Fraser.
Get off the pot and maybe it'll start to make sense.
And that would be you reefing on your rod every 2 seconds?
Is there another way to bag 'hos?? ::) ::)
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grip it and rip it, I can't help but laugh at people who put a float on their line even though their line to their leader is 10 feet and their leader is another 3 feet long, so the wight catches the bottom and gives them an "excuse" to rip their hook through the water in attempt to catch a fish. i have seen in all over the river, i usually ignore it, because honestly, i could say something, but a few words isn't going to get though such thick skulls and change a person's method of fishing unless he is getting a visit from a CO or DFO and receiving a ticket.
I have seen people get into fist fights and thrown in rivers for beaking and arguing over simple things, I think it's highly unethical, but people are going to do what they want regardless, and a lot of the time it's the people who are trying to be ethical and help people that get screwed in the long run, people just want fish, and nothing is going to change the metality of having to catch a fish, because they go to the river to catch something, not stand around a body of water and throw hooks at fish and hope they bite. its pathetic but nothing is going to stop them.
I Stopped bottom bouncing 3 years ago, and now the only time i fish the fraser river is to fly fish for pinks or fish for sturgeon.
best thing to do is give them some advice, maybe if they honestly don't know the proper methods to fishing effectively give them a float or two if they don't have any, and teach them how to set everything up properly. But if they are ignorant and don't want to listen try to ignore them, and if need be move to a different location.
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Says the guy trying to start up the flossing debate...
But okay, I'll bite:
There's no reg stating that the fish needs to strike. That's why people floss; they can hook fish legally without having to illicit a bite. Some argue it's a skillful angling method while others argue it's unsportsmanlike and/or unethical. If you're accidentally foul hooking >50% of your fish I'd think you're committing an infraction, but I've never heard of anyone ticketed for bottom bouncing the Fraser.
Get off the pot and maybe it'll start to make sense.
Is there another way to bag 'hos?? ::) ::)
Yes this is a flossing debate because flossing is snagging and thats what was witnessed on the vedder.
Thats the problem it doesnt make sense, the regulations on snagging are bogus when it comes to flossing ie. Snagging. Yes I have my medical license for a reason or many reasons so I dont need to explain anything to you. You should watch some of Rodney's videos on short floating for coho because I can tell you from experience they are the most aggressive species besides steelhead if you can find them.
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Until the regulations are changed, it is really hard to approach someone talking about "proper" ways to fish. As long as the fish they hook are not foul hooked (hooked anywhere other than the mouth), then, like it or not, what they are doing is not really "wrong" at all. It is illegal to intentionally "foul hook" a fish, which means to hook it anywhere other than the mouth. "Snagging" a fish in the mouth is what we all do when we set the hook, so that in and of itself is not "wrong." However, if your "grip it and rip it" friend is foul hooking fish repeatedly, even if they are releasing them, while trying to floss one, then they are committing a crime and should be told as much. When I am fishing for pinks or chum and foul hook two fish in a row, I always move spots or adjust my methods (change to a floating line, adjust speed of the retrieve, etc), anything else would be illegal.
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It was my first spring of the season! Go easy on me...
I'm not sure what everyone's problem is. Snag this, snag that.
Under the current low water condition and sunny weather, these fish clearly do not bite! Just like sockeye salmon in the murky Fraser River, they will not bite and the only way to catch them is to line these fish with your hook near the bottom. You may wonder how sporting it is. Well it's not, this is a harvest of fish that have been raised at the hatchery and I am only keeping what I am legally allowed to keep, therefore no regulations are broken and people should just go out and enjoy the river. I even have a float on there and pencil lead instead of a bouncing betty, what more do you want me to do? You say short floating with roe? Well I don't plan to get up at 4am just so I can get the few bites at dawn. Short floating right now is like bar fishing on the Fraser River, you get perhaps half a dozen chances per outing. I'm there to catch fish, not to enjoy the scenery.
Right? ;D
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30749.msg292202#msg292202
Pure freakin genius Rodney. Oh man, that made me smile ;D
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Is there another way to bag 'hos?? ::) ::)
herp derp
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myself and another buddy at work have been debating this and think we have come up with a good idea for DFO to easily end the flossing issue. Perhaps Rodney or soem of the other more experienced people can comment what the likelyhood of it happening would be?
Issue a maximum leader length for specific rivers, say C/V river maximum leader length cannot exceed 24".
This would basically eliminate ALOT of the flossers not by actually fining them, but by cutting down on their productivity. Let's all face it, as long as the flossers can actually catch fish, which they always seem to do, they are not going to stop because it is productive for them. But, if they shortened down those 8' leaders to 24" i would be willing to bet a few trips home empty handed and they might start re-thinking their so-called technique. Especially when the only people around actually catching fish are the ones doing it the right way.
Just my opinion, but i would love to hear some responses, thanks.
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It doesn’t fix the situation with the rippers. They look like they are drifting but give a good hook set every cast.
I had to stop fishing with an old man because he is obsessed with it. In fact I haven’t seen the Vedder in 2 years, and still fish every weekend
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They'll just tie on a buzz bomb or spoon to the end of their line and rip away
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There's no reg stating that the fish needs to strike. That's why people floss; they can hook fish legally without having to illicit a bite. Some argue it's a skillful angling method while others argue it's unsportsmanlike and/or unethical.
Not to single you out specifically, but I'll use this post as an example of this particular argument. IMHO it's playing lawyerball to justify this method of 'fishing'. While it may be currently technically within the rules, to me it simply does not pass the sniff test of sport angling. Ask any layperson how to catch a fish, and they'll likely reply 'get the fish to bite the hook/bait/lure'. I doubt many people would say you cast your line in the hopes that it smacks the fish 'somewhere in the mouth area'. I think instinctively, people equate fishing with getting the fish to bite, period. The fact that flossing may be quite technical and require a non-trivial amount of of skill is immaterial.
For comparison, consider the defintion of snagging in the Oregon regulations: http://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/docs/2012_Statewide_Fish_Regs.pdf
Snagging: Hooking or attempting to hook fish other than inside the mouth (emphasis mine)
Furthermore, apparently they are adopting new rules for 2013 to further clarify the definition of snagging:
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/fishing/public_process/docs/Summary_of_Final_Rules_Adopted_2013_Regulations_9-17-2012.pdf
Page 9 - General Statewide Regulations; Definition of “Snagging”
Redefine “Snagging” to help enforce anti-snagging regulations.
Existing Rule: Snagging “Hooking or attempting to hook fish other than
inside the mouth.”
Proposed Definition: Snagging “Taking or attempting to take a fish with
a hook and line in any way or manner where the fish is not enticed to
voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth. Gamefish which are hooked
other than inside of its mouth must be released immediately unharmed.”
Rationale: Help to curtail illegal snagging activities and allow legitimate
anglers more opportunities to fish for and catch salmon and steelhead.
Oregon State Police officers will be able to articulate in court that the
angler’s actions are not conducive to a fish “voluntarily” taking the hook in
its mouth. By considering the anglers fishing technique, along with any gear
configuration, officers can communicate in courts that the violator is doing
the opposite of “attracting” fish. In other words, the gear is chasing the fish,
versus the fish chasing the gear.[/i] (emphasis mine)
To me this is a nicely concise and clear definition of the intent of the regulations meant to define the sport of fishing. I dont know that this new wording is meant to diffuse the proliferation of flossing, but it seems likely. Just for arguments sake, lets say similar wording was adopted in the BC regs. Would you oppose it and what would be your rationale for not redefining snagging in such a manner?
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You can make all the regulations you want....... if the resources to hire enforcement officers are not there, the definitions do not mean anything. Hunters and boaters need to take a test (and in some cases a course) in order to have the ability to boat or hunt..... why not have fishermen take a similar test.
As difficult as it may be to accept, I believe most of the fishermen who are using snagging techniques on the Vedder do not know any different.
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Saw this guy there that day. In a matter of an hour, he must have snagged 5 fish and then to add salt to the wound, he would "play" with it until it is near death. He couldn't even touch the fish to unhook it. He would bring it to shore and unhook it barely touching the fish then just throws it back in the water.... I actually took a video of him but it wasn't very clear. My friend said something to him but he just replied with "they are fine, it swam away"
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I think this topic has been beat to death.
All you can do is educate people around you. If they dont want to change then thats up to them. Since flossing is an allowed form there is not much anyone can do.
This thread is the same as the 2012 Floss Out thread.
Maybe people just need a place to go to express their frustration, but how many different ways can you say the same thing?
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of note: more enforcement or at least presence would help. Also, I think if it gets really bad than a lottery (more $$$) would get rid of alot of these hacks.
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I have a couple of modest proposals to reform the Chilliwack/Vedder Fishery:
- close the hatchery or at the least stop stocking the river. The 2 prime native species, coho and steelhead seem to be doing quite well judging by the number of wild fish caught as are pinks, the summer run of sockeye and chum even though there have been some issues with low returns on that species. The hatchery could be used to raise fish for stocking other less fished systems in the area. However I feel don't we need it and the funds could go to better enforcement and habitat maintenance. After all any extra enforcement is better over the negligible amount we see these days
- charge a daily angling fee. Even a modest charge in the $5 to $10 per day range would dissuade most causal meat anglers from fishing. Everyone would have to display a visible date marked permit. This is done in other jurisdictions. Some harvest could be allowed - no more than 2 fish a day of all species. Coho and steelhead via a tag system only. Tags would have a charge and be limited. Availability would possibly be best via a lottery
Now I am sure a lot of people who bemoan the growth of flossing and the continuation of snagging (just as prevalent 40 years ago when I first fished the river) will find such suggestions unpalatable but the problem is the over produced availability of fish and the easy low cost access. That's what brings so many people with no ethical standards or regard for even existing regs to the river. Make 'em pay and reduce the tangible rewards, those people will be gone.
Cheers
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To me this is a nicely concise and clear definition of the intent of the regulations meant to define the sport of fishing. I dont know that this new wording is meant to diffuse the proliferation of flossing, but it seems likely.
Agreed.
lets say similar wording was adopted in the BC regs. Would you oppose it and what would be your rationale for not redefining snagging in such a manner?
No, I wouldn't oppose it. As I've expressed on this board in the past, I have no particular attachment to flossing, and I can buy the arguement that it's "unsportsmanlike" (if you define sportfishing as an activity in which the objective is to illicit a fish to strike a lure). However, I currently hold a 2012/2013 Non-Tidal Angling Licence, which allows me to angle (see Synopsis for definition). Like many others, I've partaken in the sockeye "meat fishery" with virtually no illusions as to what I was doing (angling vs. "sportfishing"), despite reports of sockeye caught on bar-rigs. I haven't take the "moral high ground" on this matter because I don't believe there is one.
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I can buy the arguement that it's "unsportsmanlike" (if you define sportfishing as an activity in which the objective is to illicit a fish to strike a lure)... angling vs. "sportfishing"
Hmm... Was thinking about this today so took another look at the Synopsis. It says:
Although angling is the most popular form of
sport fishing in British Columbia, there are
other methods that you can use to take fish.
Your basic fishing licence entitles you to:
angle - fish (with or without a rod) with
one fishing line to which only one hook,
one artificial lure OR one artificial fly is
attached.
down-rig …
ice fish …
set line …
spear fish …
trap crayfish …
Seems that they're saying that there's more than one type of sportfishing. Not sure whether they're including spear fishing and trapping crayfish as sportfishing.
Again, it all comes down to definition, so I guess if you define sportsfishing as elicting a game fish to strike then flossing could not be considered angling. And while I hear what you're saying ("ask any layperson how to catch a fish, and they'll likely reply 'get the fish to bite the hook/bait/lure'") I challenge you to ask around; I've actually nonpartisanly explained the flossing debate to new & non anglers and have found that the majority have replied "who cares [if the fish didn't bite/was lined]?" The fact that officers do nothing but check licences and ticket people for fishing past boundaries at the popular bars suggests that flossing is just a wee bit more acceptable -- in the eyes of the law -- than ripping a barbed treble through a school and dragging in fish @$$ backwards
Does that make it right? I guess that's up to each individual angler to decide for him-/her-self. As has been mentioned before on this forum, if you ask certain aboriginals they'll tell you that CnR sportsfishing is unethical; for where's the sport in "molesting" fish?
But that's it for entertaining this argument from me, DanL; I've promised Nitro to give it a rest ;)
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myself and another buddy at work have been debating this and think we have come up with a good idea for DFO to easily end the flossing issue. Perhaps Rodney or soem of the other more experienced people can comment what the likelyhood of it happening would be?
Issue a maximum leader length for specific rivers, say C/V river maximum leader length cannot exceed 24".
This would basically eliminate ALOT of the flossers not by actually fining them, but by cutting down on their productivity. Let's all face it, as long as the flossers can actually catch fish, which they always seem to do, they are not going to stop because it is productive for them. But, if they shortened down those 8' leaders to 24" i would be willing to bet a few trips home empty handed and they might start re-thinking their so-called technique. Especially when the only people around actually catching fish are the ones doing it the right way.
Just my opinion, but i would love to hear some responses, thanks.
The problem with the restricted leader length idea is that most of these guys run 10 ft of line under the float before the 24" of leader material even starts :D
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In reading many of the posts referring to a lack of funding for CO's to enforce regulations,I would suggest that a portion of fishing license fees go towards funding enforcement on rivers rampant with reports of noncompliance of regulations. A portion of freshwater licenses already goes to The Freshwater fishing Society to fund trout hatcheries and developement for interior trout fisheries ,why not enforcement.
If this could be the case I and many of you out there in support of this idea would gladly pay ie: a 10-15% surcharge if it was specifically designated towards funding enforcement. An increase in enforcement means more ticket/fines revenue which a % would be allocated back into enforcement funding. With continued violation reporting for Co's to act on, this idea would be self supporting and the sports fishery would be funding its own enforcement costs.
Rodney,Chris, has this idea ever been raised at any of your user groups meetings over the past years?
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I would really like to see just once the dfo acutally show up when we call. Called over 11 time on 4 different rivers with no response by the dfo either than them saying there is noone in the area. Dont know why I even bother calling anymore if they are not going to show up. ???
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I would really like to see just once the dfo acutally show up when we call. Called over 11 time on 4 different rivers with no response by the dfo either than them saying there is noone in the area. Dont know why I even bother calling anymore if they are not going to show up. ???
Three Fishery Officers at the KWB today ... there has probably been more presence and enforcement by DFO this year on the Chilliwack-Vedder than any I can recall so it shows the calls do work but, there are only so many FO's to cover such a large territory ...
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Three Fishery Officers at the KWB today ... there has probably been more presence and enforcement by DFO this year on the Chilliwack-Vedder than any I can recall so it shows the calls do work but, there are only so many FO's to cover such a large territory ...
nice to hear they are there but what about all the smaller rivers or the stave
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Three Fishery Officers at the KWB today ... there has probably been more presence and enforcement by DFO this year on the Chilliwack-Vedder than any I can recall so it shows the calls do work but, there are only so many FO's to cover such a large territory ...
So why 3 at kwb? Why not just 1 and 2 others elsewhere? I was at tamahi and railway bridge and saw some pretty outrageous violations .Called RAPP fwiw.
Seriously, if they need 3 officers to do what..hold hands?
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Two were stopping and interviewing anglers in vehicles. The other Officer was interviewing anglers actually fishing. They were there about an hour and then left to do the same at Tamihi.
No, they weren't holding hands, they were doing their job and doing it well.
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I would not do that job solo ....I see no problem with the back up, 2 is sufficient but 3 is way better than none.
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I have a couple of modest proposals to reform the Chilliwack/Vedder Fishery:
- close the hatchery or at the least stop stocking the river. The 2 prime native species, coho and steelhead seem to be doing quite well judging by the number of wild fish caught as are pinks, the summer run of sockeye and chum even though there have been some issues with low returns on that species. The hatchery could be used to raise fish for stocking other less fished systems in the area. However I feel don't we need it and the funds could go to better enforcement and habitat maintenance. After all any extra enforcement is better over the negligible amount we see these days
- charge a daily angling fee. Even a modest charge in the $5 to $10 per day range would dissuade most causal meat anglers from fishing. Everyone would have to display a visible date marked permit. This is done in other jurisdictions. Some harvest could be allowed - no more than 2 fish a day of all species. Coho and steelhead via a tag system only. Tags would have a charge and be limited. Availability would possibly be best via a lottery
Now I am sure a lot of people who bemoan the growth of flossing and the continuation of snagging (just as prevalent 40 years ago when I first fished the river) will find such suggestions unpalatable but the problem is the over produced availability of fish and the easy low cost access. That's what brings so many people with no ethical standards or regard for even existing regs to the river. Make 'em pay and reduce the tangible rewards, those people will be gone.
Cheers
Personally, I would take exception to a daily fishing surcharge on the Vedder. I am just finishing my university degree and honestly in the past years would not have been able to afford to fish if I had to pay $5-10 a day. Just because I have less money does not mean I am less ethical.
Just seems to unfairly hit those of a lower income, no? How elitist do we want to make fishing? I keep very few fish(I don't like the taste), I do it for enjoyment. By your recommendation I would be out at least another $300-$600. And again, that is with a so called 'modest charge.'
On another note, does anyone know how effective Washington States Anti-Snagging rule is? From their regs:
Anti-Snagging Rule Except when fishing with
a buoyant lure (with no weights added to the
line or lure), or trolling from a vessel or floating
device, terminal fishing gear is restricted to a
lure or bait with one single-point hook. Hooks
must measure ¾" or less from point to shank,
and must be attached to or below the lure or
bait. Weights may not be attached below or less
than 12" above the lure or bait.