Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery  (Read 16327 times)

Rodney

  • Administrator
  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14765
  • Where's my strike indicator?
    • Fishing with Rod
A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« on: August 20, 2005, 10:12:44 PM »

Today, Chris, Nina and I were invited by the BC Fisheries Survival Coalition to board one of the commercial boats and observe the First Nation fishery. We were observing the Musqueam and Tsawwassen First Nations. Both have a 48 hour opening from 1200 Friday to 1200 Sunday below Port Mann Bridge. It was quite a new experience, but what we witnessed were not too pleasant.

The objective today was:

  • To film the nets being set and picked and count how many fish were being caught per set,
  • and to observe how the fish harvested are being monitored and counted.

Armed with two video cameras, the captain took us out from Ladner. Immediately, we slowly went by a dock where several band boats were being unloaded with fish. Notice the totes that were sitting on the dock.



After observing for awhile, we proceeded to head out to the mouth of the Fraser River. Traffic was fairly heavy, with FN boats, recreational boats, whale watching boats and large tug and cargo boats constantly moving by. To make things more interesting, there were seals all over the place, floating about and waiting for a good meal. Once awhile, a large sturgeon or chinook would leap straight out, so it was never a boring moment.

Once we arrived in the area where we wanted to be, the filming and observing began. Understanding that what we we were doing could be quite intrusive, we kept our distance and zoomed right in to see the fish that were being pulled up. Four of us counted  as the nets were being pulled in, "One, two, three, four..."

At first, we were only able to count some of the nets that were already partially pulled in. Most partial sets we counted were around 30 fish (sockeyes).

This was around 1pm, the tide was still going out quite strongly. Fishing was not supposed to be great. The best fishing was still to come when the tide began to rise. Because of the timing, there were not as many boats out there as we had hoped for. We decided that it was time for lunch. While eating, several boats arrived and began to set their nets. We watched closely and were ready to count when the fishermen started to pull their nets in.

While Chris was enjoying the timbits that I brought him, one of the boats was ready to pick their fish. We quickly jumped up and started the counting. Sockeyes were plentiful, there were several after each pull. By the end of the picking, we counted 63 sockeye and 2 chinook salmon.

We drifted more closely to the boat as our captain knew the crew of that boat. After a quick greeting, one of the fishermen asked what we were doing. Just before they took off, he made a comment that all of us heard, "You guys just don't give up do you? This is our fish now."

They travelled several hundred meters upstream and proceeded to set the net again.

After several counts, we slowly traveled upstream to count how many boats were out fishing. Seals were also having a feast as a trapped sockeye makes an easy meal. At one point, we witnessed one fishermen pulling out a rifle and shot at a seal.

When we drove by the boat launch near London's Landing, we saw several trucks loaded with totes waiting. This was not a designated FN fish unloading site.

Near the end of our trip, we discovered one net that was abandoned along the shore.



Just when we thought that we had seen everything, this popped up in front of us. ;D




I don't think I need to comment on the boat, the photo tells the story.

One thing to keep in mind is that, when you decide to purchase a fish from a road side sale stand, you do not know where that fish was caught, how it has been stored. Many boats used in this fishery are not designed to store large number of fish properly, one has to wonder how the fish are being kept fresh.

We also ran into the PSC test fishery boat for Cottonwood. They indicated that today was the best sockeye result so far (I can't remember the number that was given, you can pull it out of the test fishery page).

Right before we returned to our dock, we went by a recreational boat launch, which is not a designated fish unloading site for the First Nation fishery.



In the picture, you can see two FN boats parked at the launch with trucks loaded with totes near the top. One recreational boat patiently waited as they wanted to pull their boat out. The FN boats had taken up all the launch space. When they saw us coming, one boat filled with several young passengers quickly drove away, while they made some interesting hand gestures at us.



Chris asked, "Is there a fish counter at site?"

All of us laughed, there wasn't one to be seen.

During the entire time while we were out (from noon until 4:30pm), DFO officers and monitors were not seen anywhere.

Today's trip provided me a new perspective on what is going on in our Fraser River fishery and made me more willing to bring the information that I gather to all of you. This so-called legal fishery, in my opinion, is poorly managed. Sometimes (ok, every night now) I ask myself, "What the heck is going on?". Why are people not appreciating the seriousness of this issue, or am I just going crazy?

These fish that are being unloaded into totes, why are they not counted at site by DFO monitors so we can have a better understanding on CPUE and escapement? Where are the designated fish unloading sites and why are fish being unloaded at all these different launches where no one would notice? During this 48 hour opening, just how many fish is DFO expecting each boat to pull out, and is there even a set quota for each boat?

So far, from the Fraser River mouth to Sawmill Creek, First Nations have had over 9,000 hours of openings. Over 2,400 of these hours are for the sockeye fishery.

If one boat fishing at the Fraser River mouth, where it is wide and deep, pulling out over 60 sockeyes in a ten minute set, then how many fish are being pulled out in total per boat in one day? How many fish are being pulled out per band? How many fish are being pulled out per opening? How many boats are fishing per band?

The First Nations catch result of Fraser River sockeye can be seen on this page from DFO Pacific. How are these numbers gathered and just how credible are they?

Based on that data sheet, during a 30 hour opening on August 12 and 13, the Musqueam First Nation pulled out 8682 sockeye salmon. First of all, that's just one weekend. Secondly, how do you store 8682 sockeye salmon?

8682 fish!!

I must say it was exciting to see fish being pulled out of the water like sardines today. Big fish, small fish, we were eager to see what was coming out of the net next.

At the same time, it angers me to see over 30 daily recreational quotas being pulled out in ten minutes. Those 30 daily quotas could have been over 60 hours of work for some guide in the Fraser Valley.

I could also see the pain and frustration of the commercial fishermen who were being told that they can not work while they watch on the sideline.

It also scares and saddens me as we were possibly witnessing an uncontrolled fishery that may just lead to a large ecological disaster in the near future, an ecological disaster where no winner is crowned.

As mentioned before, my interest in this is not to see the elimination of the communal and ceremonial fisheries. It's not about us against them. It's about the fish for the future can only be saved by a proper management. Until these unanswered questions are being dealt with, the sportfishing community will continue to pressure DFO for answers. Ask questions now, because there isn't a point to ask when there are no fish left.

What are you going to do about it?

chris gadsden

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13881
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2005, 10:40:58 PM »

Excellent report Rodney, now I do not have to write much.

May main concern what I saw today was there is no control of what was going on at all. No appearance of FOC at all and after we got off the boat around 3:30 I stayed in the area until dark and the more I saw the more I had an understanding of the frustration the commercial sector has with this race based fishery. I visited several landing sites, fish being processed everywhere, even saw a bunch all vacuum packed waiting to be picked up by someone one, trucks with totes going back and forth all the time. The only thing I did not see was a fish sale. I even changed into my dumpster diving clothes, wandered around picking up bottles in the area of Wellington Point Park to see if I could get a sale in progress with the video camera. Dozens of totes were being iunloaded there but did not get a transaction on film but there was people around that looked like they may have been buyers.

An enjoyable and long day but very sad to see, I hazard to guess thousands of fish being taken with none being counted, FOC should be ashamed of themselves for letting this fishery go on unchecked and unmontitored.

 I now know the fish numbers are there to allow a sports fishery even though I donot participate. If  an opening was granted they would take far less than were taken today, it is all political my friends that is why there is no rec or commercial fishery happening right now. >:(

The bright spot was seeing an rec angler enjoying fishing for pike minnows as the sun was setting. He called them white fish and was going to make some type of soup with them. I believe I have a picture that Rodney may post.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 10:43:38 PM by chris gadsden »
Logged

BIG T

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 982
  • One crazy fisherman!!!!!!!!!
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2005, 10:42:07 PM »


What are you going to do about it?
Really,i dont think we can do anything about this,cause even the dfo or the government turn on their blind eyes,we are just the little guy with the small mouth.  If they can print these incidents  in the Vancouver Sun then it is obvious that the DFO is USELESS against this situation.  They call themselves officers of this country yet they can not convict ANYONE.  So, this tells you something about the government who runs this country and get paid the BIG bucks for passing out these so called laws and don't do anything about it. 
Logged

FISHIN MAGICIAN

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 289
  • Shut up an' Fish
    • Ocean Adventure Center
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2005, 11:21:57 PM »

Fact is, DFO knows about the issue, they spend no money to track for the reasons that they aren't given any--and why bother to know when they aren't going to do anything about it anyways? . Fact is the Minister in charge doesn't want to make his job hard and deal with the issues. The issue isn't FN, the issue is the government.

FACT: Until the government gets off its my friend and does something about itNOTHING is going to be done.

Nothing short of the Vancouver Sun spending time on the issue and the news doing these stories is going to sway and encourage action by the government.

What am I going to do about it? I have written my letter.

 
Logged
"You go in the cage--The cage goes in the water- - Shark's in the water--Our shark-Farewell and Adieu to you fair Spanish ladies, Farewell and Adieu to you fair Spanish Ladies at Sea.." -Quint

Fish Assassin

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10807
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2005, 11:25:39 PM »

Thanks Rodney for another perspective on this fishery. What can we do about it ? Hate to say, very little as long as DFO is running the show. Before DFO blames the warm water conditions, they should look at themselves first !  >:(
Logged

chris gadsden

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13881
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2005, 11:50:44 PM »

What we can do is band together and fight this thing, if we just sit back and do nothing we will lose our salmon sport fishery. Also donate to the SDA fund if possible. Looking forward to our SDA meeting tomorrrow to formulate our game plan for the future. ;D

Bantam_50

  • Guest
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2005, 12:13:00 AM »

Quote
Rodney Today at 10:12:44 PM: At the same time, it angers me to see over 30 daily recreational quotas being pulled out in ten minutes. Those 30 daily quotas could have been over 60 hours of work for some guide in the Fraser Valley.

I'm rather stunned by this comment Rod and surprised it's coming from you of all people.  :o

Are you trying to say that rec guide operators should have more status to harvest them sockeye by taking out $ paying customers to snag fish?

Explain to me how you come to this conclusion? Economics?  :-\ Are you stating that FN don't/shouldn't have this food/ceremonial fishery?  ???

Personally Rod I believe that some guide operators are just as greed driven as ... lets say the Cheam.

What you've experienced today has transpired on the Fraser for decades. Usually it's the tax paying commercial boys you'd see in them boats. But politics and certain spineless governments have seen to it that they'll be run into the poor house and be replaced by  the FN you watched today.  Makes for a good pacifier while other items are stalled. Maybe the FN, at this time of the year can feel allot of self worth and snub their noses at all the whining rec anglers stuck on the beach.  ???

Quote
What are you going to do about it?

 I've posted warnings years ago on this site and others, written the letters, attending the meetings. Right now, nothing at the moment ... I'll sit back and watch, shake my head. I've ceased my runs to the Fraser.

Maybe an organization with some huge testicular fortitude will finally emerge and take this on at the head, even if it means getting nasty ... no more Mr. Niceguy. And without any one stakeholder benefitting more than others ... only the fish.  ;D

You interested in leading. ???
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 12:23:45 AM by Bantam_50 »
Logged

chris gadsden

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13881
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2005, 12:24:07 AM »

[Maybe an organization with some huge testicular fortitude will finally emerge and take this on at the head, even if it means getting nasty ... no more Mr. Niceguy. And without any one stakeholder benefitting more than others ... only the fish.  ;D

You interested in leading. ???
Quote
The SDA will be the one to carry this on. The SDA has been around for a number of years but it has taken time for most of the general fishing public to realize what was going to happen, now it has happened. The SDA that has excutive members made up of a number of fishing groups has a great president in Bill Otway.

If anglers only knew the amount of time the SDA volunteers have put in fighting for them the last while, most have no idea of the hundreds of hours given, all volunterred freely.

Bantam_50

  • Guest
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2005, 01:02:35 AM »

[Maybe an organization with some huge testicular fortitude will finally emerge and take this on at the head, even if it means getting nasty ... no more Mr. Niceguy. And without any one stakeholder benefitting more than others ... only the fish.  ;D

You interested in leading. ???
Quote
The SDA will be the one to carry this on. The SDA has been around for a number of years but it has taken time for most of the general fishing public to realize what was going to happen, now it has happened. The SDA that has executive members made up of a number of fishing groups has a great president in Bill Otway.

If anglers only knew the amount of time the SDA volunteers have put in fighting for them the last while, most have no idea of the hundreds of hours given, all volunteered freely.

The SDA ... are they prepared to play hard ball politics Chris or still pussy foot around still?

I've worked with Bill for many years back with the Pitt Waterfowl Management Association in conjunction with DU. Canadian Wildlife Service (DFO equivalent for migratory game birds) eventually were the demise of us. Red tape politics being the major divorce factor in what could of been a productive relationship for the wood duck population and Canada goose issue that the PWMA voluntarily would fund in the lower valley. I've also stood behind him on the Lower Mainland Region board of the BCWF. Yes a tireless warrior.

But why is it that the general fishing public didn't get it back then Chris? Why ... Because a majority of them couldn't give a pikeminnows a$$ about fish stocks. As long as they caught something for the dollars they paid and other groups didn't get more than them. Exactly like some of the chit that is being posted on this board. Here's a quick survey members of SDA can do while afield this fall to substantiate it. Ask the angler beside you if he belongs to and is an active member to the SDA. Then try BCWF, BCFDF, BCFFF  ect.The rest of your urban voting public really couldn't care less about FN fisheries and sockeye stocks. And them clowns in charge know this. What the heck you think them spin doctors are there for?  :D

As for the giving up volunteer hours, yes Chris I certainly do know. Maybe all that running into block walls has made me hardheaded now.  ::)
Logged

Rodney

  • Administrator
  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14765
  • Where's my strike indicator?
    • Fishing with Rod
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2005, 01:15:40 AM »

Are you trying to say that rec guide operators should have more status to harvest them sockeye by taking out $ paying customers to snag fish?
Explain to me how you come to this conclusion? Economics?

Simply trying to emphasize how much each of these sockeye salmon has been devalued.

It's not up to me to decide how a guiding company should operate, that's the province's job. I'm tired, and do not intend to get into the ethics of fishing. Actually, I'm not up for that, I have not mastered the fishing skills to tell how one should fish, I know a handful of experts in ethics who can engage in these debates for hours though. ;)

Are you stating that FN don't/shouldn't have this food/ceremonial fishery? ???

My original post: As mentioned before, my interest in this is not to see the elimination of the communal and ceremonial fisheries. ???

Personally Rod I believe that some guide operators are just as greed driven as ... lets say the Cheam.

Human are greedy, that's why a proper management is needed to control the users of the resource, as I stated in my original post.

I've posted warnings years ago on this site and others, written the letters, attending the meetings. Right now, nothing at the moment ... I'll sit back and watch, shake my head. I've ceased my runs to the Fraser.

Well that's good to know. Wiser than us, yet choose to stand by and watch us self-destruct.

You interested in leading. ???

No, I'm a nice guy, and the biggest beek according to another thread. ;D

itosh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 228
  • I EAT llamas!
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2005, 01:33:19 AM »

At the same time, it angers me to see over 30 daily recreational quotas being pulled out in ten minutes. Those 30 daily quotas could have been over 60 hours of work for some guide in the Fraser Valley.


Bantam_50

Interesting that you should focus on 2 sentences out of the whole post.  Obviously any ignoranus can take 2 sentences and put them out of context.  It seems to me, and all of the others who have replied, that the general context of the post is that DFO basically has no idea of what is really going on.  I mean, how could they have an idea of what is going on if they are not present to observe?  I guess you must've missed that part.  Maybe this will help -- There was no DFO/FOC presence to monitor and observe the fishery, therefore, how can DFO/FOC properly manage allocations, estimate run size etc. if they aren't even there.

Or are you stating that the FNs should be allowed to do whatever they want to supposedly dwindling stocks of salmon (in this case, it happens to be sockeye)?  Are you condoning DFO's actions?  Nowhere in Rodney's post do I see him stating that FNs shouldn't have a food/ceremonial opening, but I guess you do.  I guess you also believe all of DFO's numbers regarding salmon returns.  If that is the case then you must believe that flossing is legal (I didn't say ethical) because DFO allows it.

As to your comments regarding guides and economics, doesn't this tell you that perhaps the recreational sockeye harvest is legal and accepted by DFO?  No, guides do not have priority of FN, nobody but you ever said that.  It is plain fact that the legally recognized recreational sockeye harvest in the Fraser Valley brings in millions of dollars directly and indirectly.  If you don't think this is true, talk to the businesses in the Chilliwack/Hope area after the sockeye have passed, especially if there is no opening. Most business oriented ppl are greedy as it is the bottom line (profit) that matters (to an extent).  Basically, I think what Rodney, and Chris for that matter, is trying to say is that if DFO was to properly control/monitor and observe these openings then perhaps there could be a recreational opening, even if it was short,  thereby benefitting everybody in the above mentioned communities.

I'm sure it is true that what is happening on the Fraser has been going on for years, except now it is FN not commercial fleets.  However, would you not agree that there is a big difference?  The commercial guys take their catch to proper packers/canneries and total fish taken can be somewhat monitored and sales can be audited, taxed  etc..  As Rodney alluded to, where are the FN guys taking their fish, how is it getting stored/processed and where does it end up?  Why are they using unregulated unloading zones?

Next time instead of taking a couple of sentences out of a whole post and twisting it out of context, why don't you post something more credible.


Logged

BwiBwi

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1959
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2005, 01:37:44 AM »

Did you notice that many of the FN fishers can actually afford better boats than most of us?
Logged

Bantam_50

  • Guest
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2005, 02:37:38 AM »

Itosh,

Did you actually read my post or just come running to Rod's aid"?

I'm sorry if I refrained from starting my post by stating what a wonderful job Rod did in conveying what some (sorry I'm up to speed) aren't aware of on the Fraser. ::)

Now ...

Quote
Interesting that you should focus on 2 sentences out of the whole post.  Obviously any ignoranus can take 2 sentences and put them out of context.  It seems to me, and all of the others who have replied, that the general context of the post is that DFO basically has no idea of what is really going on.  I mean, how could they have an idea of what is going on if they are not present to observe?  I guess you must've missed that part.  Maybe this will help -- There was no DFO/FOC presence to monitor and observe the fishery, therefore, how can DFO/FOC properly manage allocations, estimate run size etc. if they aren't even there.

I don't believe my focus was on 2 sentences, but rather I quoted I was stunned it came from Rod, who usually doesn't come across as being biased. Which IMO is what the the 2 sentences could represent. Hence that is why all the ? at the end of the flow- up questions. But then any talented  ignoramus would have seen that. ::) Some may feel/think that DFO doesn't have a clue what's going on. How untrue.  Remember Devona Adams? Why'd she leave? Uhhm .. Itosh, sorry to disappoint you but it's known that DFO hasn't been present for years. :D As far as proper management how about a public enquiry requesting that info?

Quote
Or are you stating that the FNs should be allowed to do whatever they want to supposedly dwindling stocks of salmon (in this case, it happens to be sockeye)?  Are you condoning DFO's actions?  Nowhere in Rodney's post do I see him stating that FNs shouldn't have a food/ceremonial opening, but I guess you do.  I guess you also believe all of DFO's numbers regarding salmon returns.  If that is the case then you must believe that flossing is legal (I didn't say ethical) because DFO allows it.

Never did state. I believe ? makes it a question. Again the comment was uncharacteristic of Rod and left it wide open to question. So no need to grasp here.

Quote
As to your comments regarding guides and economics, doesn't this tell you that perhaps the recreational sockeye harvest is legal and accepted by DFO?  No, guides do not have priority of FN, nobody but you ever said that.  It is plain fact that the legally recognized recreational sockeye harvest in the Fraser Valley brings in millions of dollars directly and indirectly.  If you don't think this is true, talk to the businesses in the Chilliwack/Hope area after the sockeye have passed, especially if there is no opening. Most business oriented ppl are greedy as it is the bottom line (profit) that matters (to an extent).  Basically, I think what Rodney, and Chris for that matter, is trying to say is that if DFO was to properly control/monitor and observe these openings then perhaps there could be a recreational opening, even if it was short,  thereby benefitting everybody in the above mentioned communities.

Please try and quote what I post.  ::) In regards to DFO and guides/economics ... I'll sum it up by saying IMHO ... appeasement. DFO was forced this hand years ago and needless to say a Pandora's box was opened when they agreed. The Pandora's box did indeed create a economic boom for some ... but could the downside be worse if the stocks crash? That's what we should be asking ourselves. You need to start with solid runs first, it appears they could be in question. Did you read Flying Magicians post in regards to the east Is. go ask those businesses about economics. When was it I was at Georgia Basin Chinook stock meetings? Bill Otway knows ... what did DFO tell economically worried businesses ... there's all kinds of coho that'll compensate it.  :D

Quote
I'm sure it is true that what is happening on the Fraser has been going on for years, except now it is FN not commercial fleets.  However, would you not agree that there is a big difference?  The commercial guys take their catch to proper packers/canneries and total fish taken can be somewhat monitored and sales can be audited, taxed  etc..  As Rodney alluded to, where are the FN guys taking their fish, how is it getting stored/processed and where does it end up?  Why are they using unregulated unloading zones?

Actually Itosh the FN fishery currently is taking less fish than commercial fleets of before. And yes Rod did bring about very valid points regarding monitoring the FN. Again this is left to politics or public pressure to know. But it better be hot and heavy or you'll be brushed aside and ignored.

Quote
Next time instead of taking a couple of sentences out of a whole post and twisting it out of context, why don't you post something more credible.

Nothing was twisted. As for credible.  ;D Lets just say you won't win any debates with a closing like that Itosh ... especially when you're defending not debating.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 02:41:05 AM by Bantam_50 »
Logged

norm_2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 238
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 09:03:01 AM »

Rod:

Keep up the good work.  I hope you and the others will be able to invite the news people (television, radio, and print) to force the politicians to respond to what is going on.

I plan to write a letter to the Prime Minister tommorrow.

I also want to let as many people know as possible that a month ago, I emailed my MP Don Bell on his website and he did not respond.  My email was on the Fraser FN situation and I requested a reply.

I look forward to your next observation and I hope there will be better news but I know better.

Norm
Logged

buck

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 313
Re: A day of observing the First Nation Fishery
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2005, 09:56:18 AM »

Rod & Chris, Great article which gives everyone a better perspective of whats really going on during FN fisheries. Unmonitored landing sites is probably more the norm than not. Unfortunately do to severe budget cuts to DFO/FOC its becoming more difficult to have a presence in some of these areas. Lots of bickering going on about the rights and wrongs of the sockeye / chinook fisheries which only plays into the hands of first nations and foc. If we do not stand together as one united group than nothing will change ,and we will all be taking up golf. And you know - I Hate Golf. However, I do know where to get some cheap golf balls - Chris
Logged