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Author Topic: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions  (Read 23807 times)

RalphH

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2020, 07:33:32 AM »

Well I thought that was where this was going but what is f(x)? The other confusion I see is that infection growth is mostly function of time rather than a function of our behaviour, population density and other factors. If I can use the analogy of credit card interest, the way to avoid the exponential growth of that debt is to pay off the balance or at least part of it or maybe reorganize debt! Everybody needs to adjust their behavior and there has to serious thought of punishing those who refuse.
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"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

Knnn

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2020, 09:57:04 AM »

Well I thought that was where this was going but what is f(x)? The other confusion I see is that infection growth is mostly function of time rather than a function of our behaviour, population density and other factors. If I can use the analogy of credit card interest, the way to avoid the exponential growth of that debt is to pay off the balance or at least part of it or maybe reorganize debt! Everybody needs to adjust their behavior and there has to serious thought of punishing those who refuse.

I agree that infection rates are generally independent of population behaviors.  Reviewing past data shows that implementation of rigorous lock down measures has had little or no impact on the infection or death rates associated with this virus.  There appears to be a general opinion that the lock down measure in April/May caused the decline in infections, i.e. flattened the curve, when in fact infections and deaths were already falling and following a seasonal downward trend that is always associated with viruses of this nature.

It is difficult to get a grip on an argument that lock downs did not have a positive affect on controlling the virus, when there are many confounding factors such as societal, economic, dietary, ethnicity, latitude and seasonality, which all have significant impacts on outcomes, especially when comparing one or two countries.  However, if you look at the data on the following link you will see that numerous countries that have implemented very stringent lock down, have not fared any better than countries with far less stringent or no lock downs at all.

https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMGVjYjhkMjMtMzhjMy00OWRkLWJlNWItNjM0NzI0NjhiNTlkIiwidCI6IjlkZWYwNTBlLTExMDUtNDk1ZC1iNzUzLWRhOGRiZTc5MGVmNyJ9

I'm not suggesting that we should ignore all guidance and have a free for all.  I agree that social distancing, hand washing and selective wearing of face masks are beneficial behaviors that will provide some protection to us older folks and there should be more consideration about how people are to be held accountable for their behavior.  However, the concern I have is determining how far the behavioral restrictions should go.  There is ever mounting evidence that the number of deaths due to COVID during this seasonal increase or "second wave" is far less than the deaths attributed to cancer, stroke, heart attack patients who have not received prompt attention due to the perceived need to protect our health care system and increased suicide rates. 

Therefore, before sever measures are implemented, such as a lock down, there has to be a full and balanced accounting of the relative immediate risks pose to society and societies ability to continue to function and protect its citizens from all forms of harm in the following years. I do not think I have seen any government offering this type of analysis and basing their decisions on a properly formulated cost benefit risk assessment.  Maybe they have behind the scenes, but I cannot find any indication of this logical process, which is rather frightening.








« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 10:02:13 AM by Knnn »
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RalphH

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2020, 04:34:58 PM »

I agree that infection rates are generally independent of population behaviors.  Reviewing past data shows that implementation of rigorous lock down measures has had little or no impact on the infection or death rates associated with this virus. 

I don't believe that is the case - the spread of the virus is related to human behavior. It exploits human behavior to spread. The rate of spread can be controlled by controlling human behavior and other measures such as measuring masks, contract tracing and isolation of those potentially infected. As long as human populations apply the controls the rate of spread can be controlled and reduced.

In Canada's case lifting or relaxing those controls, normalizing of the presence of the virus and willfully ignoring recommended behavior changes have lead to the current rapid spread of the virus.
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clarki

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2020, 11:31:53 PM »

Well I thought that was where this was going but what is f(x)?
F(x)=bx is how exponential functions are expressed. The ‘f’ stands for function.
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RalphH

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2020, 07:34:40 AM »

F(x)=bx is how exponential functions are expressed. The ‘f’ stands for function.

yes I understand but what is it? For example for compound interest it's P(1+ r/n)^nt with P being the principal, r the interest rate, n the compounding rate and t the number time periods of growth. nt is the exponential x.

I realize none of us know but wanted to point that out and wonder what it is and who knows.

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wildmanyeah

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DanL

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2020, 01:12:24 PM »

The sort of exponential growth where something doubles every "x" units of time can be expressed by:

 Y= Y0 * e(k*X)

e = Euler's number ( ~2.718)
k = rate constant (see below)
X =  # of intervals (for this example, we'll use # of days)
Y0 = the starting value

For simplicity, lets say on day 0 there is exactly 1 covid case. Therefore Y0= 1 and we can conveniently exclude it from the remainder of the analysis

The rate constant where something doubles every single unit of time (ie every day) is = ln(2) ~= 0.693

If the doubling time interval is 13 days (suggested earlier in thread), then k = ln(2)/13 ~= 0.0533

Thus  Y = 2.718((0.0533)*X)

So starting from 1 case, if we want to predict how many cases there will be after 100 days (not quite 8 doublings which would be 28 = 256),   Y = 2.718((0.0533)*100) ~= 206 cases

As an aside, Y = X2 is not really an exponential function, it's quadratic. Y=2X is exponential, because the value of X is in the exponent (hence the name). You can plot them out and you'll see they have very different plot shapes
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bobby b

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2020, 01:25:26 PM »

Agreed^^^



more explanation here......

https://mathinsight.org/exponential_function
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 01:42:53 PM by bobby b »
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bobby b

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2020, 01:36:54 PM »

The above would be a simple exponential graph.

The variables of population density, adherence to guidelines, and any other factors that would affect this measure can also be graphed using various methods of probability (or improbability ) math .....   thats where I start to glaze over... lol
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Roderick

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2020, 02:25:42 PM »

Just to add a further complication...

The cbc article i posted above actually shows that it's the number of new cases that are doubling every 13 days, not the total cases. 
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IronNoggin

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2020, 02:45:23 PM »


Three Lower Mainland schools closed for 2 weeks amid COVID-19 transmission

Three schools in the Fraser Health region have been told to close over concerns of COVID-19 transmission.

“A school outbreak is defined as a significant number of cases likely to have occurred onsite that extend beyond a classroom or administrative area such as a cohort, and exceptional measures are needed to control transmission,” reads a letter to parents posted to Tinney’s Twitter profile.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7463707/coronavirus-3-lower-mainland-schools-closed/
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Knnn

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2020, 06:02:23 PM »

I don't believe that is the case - the spread of the virus is related to human behavior.

Sorry RalghH, I misunderstood your post, I did not mean to put words in your mouth.  My apologies.
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RalphH

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2020, 06:29:13 PM »

some direct evidence that vigorous lock downs can be very effective:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54654646

FYI - the company my wife works for has it's HQ in Melbourne.
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IronNoggin

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2020, 03:11:55 PM »

COVID-19 exposures: Multiple warning notices posted for B.C. grocery stores and pharmacies

Several COVID-19 exposure notices have been posted online for B.C. grocery stores in the past few days

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-exposures-multiple-warning-notices-posted-for-b-c-grocery-stores-and-pharmacies-1.5192772
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bobby b

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Re: A return to Lock down for Coastal and Fraser Health Regions
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2020, 03:23:36 PM »

Active cases of COVID-19 in British Columbia.

Oct 20     1808
Nov 03.   3098
Nov 16    6561
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