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Author Topic: ....l hate your guts...  (Read 9886 times)

clarki

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2019, 11:57:18 AM »

On a related note, why do many Region 1 streams have a year round bait ban? (Quote: Bait ban: applies to all streams of
Region 1, all year, with some important exceptions.)

I'm curious, when was this ban implemented and the reasoning behind it? How is Region 2 different from Region 1 in that a bait ban is present on Vancouver Island and not the Lower Mainland? 
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RalphH

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2019, 01:10:57 PM »

well according to Bob Hooton's chronology of BC Steelhead regulations, the general ban has been in place since 2001.

The lack of a bait ban is a Fraser Valley thing as many streams on the North Shore, Squamish watershed and Harrison Watershed from the lake up have a bait ban. Why them and not many rivers in the valley or the LM?

avid angler

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2019, 01:12:42 PM »

Thereís way more wild summer run populations in region 1 would be my guess.
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MetalAndFeathers

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2019, 01:23:21 PM »

well according to Bob Hooton's chronology of BC Steelhead regulations, the general ban has been in place since 2001.

The lack of a bait ban is a Fraser Valley thing as many streams on the North Shore, Squamish watershed and Harrison Watershed from the lake up have a bait ban. Why them and not many rivers in the valley or the LM?
Because most rivers in the LM without a bait ban are factory hatchery kill rivers?
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I know how to catch fish.......Sometimes.

RalphH

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2019, 04:21:29 PM »

Thereís way more wild summer run populations in region 1 would be my guess.

Wild steelhead release and bait ban on summer runs regulations were put in place on all wild summer run streams in 1982.

Bait bans were placed on all streams and rivers May 1 to Nov 30th in 1985. That was to protect trout and parr.

Perhaps no one recalls but almost every river on the East Coast of the Island saw dramatic declines in steelhead returns in the 1990s regardless of hatchery enhancement.

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Because most rivers in the LM without a bait ban are factory hatchery kill rivers?

Again this is a steelhead-centric reponse. The Squamish system had a roe ban and then a bait ban imposed to protect it's bull trout. Those are now the dominate sport fish in that system

There are several smaller rivers in the LM/FV that have small returns of winter steelhead and no bait ban. These streams often have cutthroat populations. Don't the trout deserve protection? Evidence is cutthroat experience significantly higher bait caught c&r mortality than steelhead . The hatchery enhancement program for cutties has been cancelled. So now there will be a bait fishery for not abundant populations of wild trout that have to be released and are susceptible to high c&r mortality.

This fall on the little coho streams I fish I noticed that when the bait anglers showed up in number, the trout disappeared...but that may be do to their avoiding the salmon by moving upstream or out of the river.

buck

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2019, 07:15:19 PM »

Rodney: Brood stock mortalities usually started to occur after checking fish for maturity. Some of these fish look like they had just arrived in the system. No abrasions, wounds or sign of disease but dead in holding. We felt these mortalities were stress related due to handling and months in isolation.

Regarding the hooks found in the holding condos, they appeared to have been ejected from the fishes mouth. The hooks were generally rusted and appeared to have been eroded to some degree. How they accomplished this feat is a mystery.

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AaronWilde

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2019, 05:31:25 AM »

So what... the bleeders etc are not taken to the hatchery and put into the tanks so they would experience little or no mortality.

The 2nd issue is like so many you rely on the best case survival rates to support your position but ignore cases such as trout taken on roe which have far worse outcomes - like 30 to 50% mortality.

You use random statistics and blanket statements to try to justify your biased view. 30% to 50% mortality when using roe for trout??? You're so delusional! If roe kills that many Trout then fly and gear kill nearly just as many. Anything with a hook is doing similar damage. Even local hatcheries are telling you and you still make excuses like theyre lieing and they cull the ones that wont make it and lie about mortality statistics.

If 30 to 50% of trout died from roe there would be no trout left.

Youre clearly extremely biased against roe. It doesnt do your cause against roe justice to argue in hopes of only being right instead of having a fair unbiased debate.
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RalphH

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2019, 06:44:36 AM »

 ::)...

In a lot of places the trout did all but disappear. There is nothing random about this information and it's your problem you are not aware of or able to mentally process it.
 
Browsing the water specific regs for Region 3, 4 and even 5 bait bans are among the most common kind of restriction of both lakes and rivers. Why do you think that's the case?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 09:45:52 AM by RalphH »
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Knnn

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2019, 11:47:03 AM »

I'm not sure about the specific statistics, however based on my experience, and I believe many other anglers have found this, when fishing artificial like chironomids, wet or dry flies, spoons, spinners, twitching jigs, 6 inch pink worms or beads set 1.5-2 inches above the hook, I have rarely experienced a deep hook set (I'm not saying never, just that it is rare and I acknowledge that it may also depend on angler experience etc.).  In the past when I fished with roe or an occasionally real worm, the chances of a tongue or deep throat hook set seemed to go up dramatically; certainly enough that I noticed the difference and now very rarely use bait.  I now also use the trailing hook method on spoons to try and minimize deep hook sets and from my N=1 experience, this has been a worthwhile technique.  Therefore, the theory/conjecture that roe and other real baits result in increased mortality due to increased risk of deep hook sets and increased risk of blood loss appears to be both logical and reasonable to me and also fits my experience.  The fact that it is banned by regulatory authorities (with a lot more experience and access to research than I) in many (most?) non meat fisheries provides additional credence to this theory.

I'm not sure why discussions on the potential merits of banning roe or other real baits generates such angst.  Everyone would be on a level playing field and good, experienced anglers would still catch plenty of fish. 
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stsfisher

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2019, 11:54:04 AM »

.....was holding off but time to rant...two different threads that end up bashing the use of roe...calls for roe bans on hatchery harvest rivers....descriptions of  roe fishers that paint a picture of  unskilled unibrow knuckledraggers.....all self righteous drivel that smells of eliteism ...new laws to address the lack of compliance or enforcement of existing ones only impact those that follow the existing rules....a good example would be the closing of parking areas because of garbage dumping or break ins......if you don't like roe,don't use it....your game,your rules..... curing and presenting roe is just as satisfying as tying and fishing a fly ,building a spinner etc....roe does work but is not like using a net or dynamite...washed a lot of roe only to have it ignored....its  only one tool in a box full of others that are needed to be a successful angler.....even if it was the silver bullet and was used to fill somebody's freezer, as long as its within the existing rules that's their busines ,mind your own.....time and effort would be better spent elsewhere on things that benefit the fishery  and all users.......
lol, look what you started spoonman. Now you have 3 threads bashing the use of roe by uni brow knuckle draggers, lol
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milo

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2019, 12:48:57 PM »

lol, look what you started spoonman. Now you have 3 threads bashing the use of roe by uni brow knuckle draggers, lol

Well, roe is for little fat kids, what did ya expect? :P
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clarki

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2019, 12:52:29 PM »

lol, look what you started spoonman. Now you have 3 threads bashing the use of roe by uni brow knuckle draggers, lol
Hah, says you. Itís been years since I could touch my toes!
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AaronWilde

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2019, 02:46:09 PM »

I'm not sure about the specific statistics, however based on my experience, and I believe many other anglers have found this, when fishing artificial like chironomids, wet or dry flies, spoons, spinners, twitching jigs, 6 inch pink worms or beads set 1.5-2 inches above the hook, I have rarely experienced a deep hook set (I'm not saying never, just that it is rare and I acknowledge that it may also depend on angler experience etc.).  In the past when I fished with roe or an occasionally real worm, the chances of a tongue or deep throat hook set seemed to go up dramatically; certainly enough that I noticed the difference and now very rarely use bait.  I now also use the trailing hook method on spoons to try and minimize deep hook sets and from my N=1 experience, this has been a worthwhile technique.  Therefore, the theory/conjecture that roe and other real baits result in increased mortality due to increased risk of deep hook sets and increased risk of blood loss appears to be both logical and reasonable to me and also fits my experience.  The fact that it is banned by regulatory authorities (with a lot more experience and access to research than I) in many (most?) non meat fisheries provides additional credence to this theory.

I'm not sure why discussions on the potential merits of banning roe or other real baits generates such angst.  Everyone would be on a level playing field and good, experienced anglers would still catch plenty of fish.

More biased blanket statements. Chronimids are fished in lakes. In lakes obiously bait will be swallowed a large majority of the time resulting in deep hooked fish. Again, were talking about steelhead/salmon mortality when drifting bait in moving water where only a tool who doesnt have the experience would argue a large percent of fish swallow and get deep hooked causing mortality.
This isnt a reality.
The last 50 coho Ive caught on roe only one was hooked in the gill rake where i cut the line and released it to prevent bleeding. The rest in the mouth. Drifting roe for salmon and steel has very similar mortality to other methods. I see more bleeding fish from mega hooks that come on store bought lures.

Obviously bait bans on lakes and places where youre fishing for non anadromous feeding trout/char that are trying to swallow/eat food, especially lakes where the bait is stationary then ya youll kill a lot by using bait.

Youre summarizing lakes, rivers and places with trout that are actively feeding which is more biased pointless arguing. Were not talking about those situations.

Flowing water salmon and steelhead using a float the fish are very seldom getting gut hooked/high mortality. Ive gut hooked 3 coho this season where the hook was in the stomach. That was stationary non flowing frog water (like a lake) and yes the mortality will be high there with bait. You shouldnt use bait in those conditions if you dont want to risk gut hooking.

Ive caught a lot of salmon and steelhead in moving river water and  rarely does a fish get hooked deep. Im not the only one. The good anglers with good handling skills (keep the fish under water at all times), good ethics (targetting fresh fish, small hooks, using bait in flowing water rather than stationary when planning to release fish, etc), and this mortality you speak of is simply not the case. I know a lot of good anglers who would agree. I also have fly purist friends who would like to see bait bans on certain rivers and I 100% agree with it on certain flows.

I also think seasonal bait bans should be in place ie no bait in rivers from april 1st thru summer while trout are abundant,especially small.. but even then.. small flys will reek havoc on those trout. Be ethical.. its not about what you use but how you use it.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 06:24:55 PM by AaronWilde »
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firstlight

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2019, 04:44:03 PM »

I wonder how many fish die after being released after a too long fight with some hero and his 6 wt. fly rod?

I also remember how the argument went about banning roe.
It isnt because of deep hooking and mortality but because its just too effective and too many fish get caught.

I like how the story allways changes to suit others personal gains.
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RalphH

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Re: ....l hate your guts...
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2019, 05:02:09 PM »

I wonder how many fish die after being released after a too long fight with some hero and his 6 wt. fly rod?

2.275/100

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I also remember how the argument went about banning roe.
It isnt because of deep hooking and mortality but because its just too effective and too many fish get caught.

that too

Quote

I like how the story allways changes to suit others personal gains.

well if roe catches more and you fish roe - whose gain?