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Author Topic: Draconian Fisheries Closures  (Read 21784 times)

Hike_and_fish

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2019, 07:49:57 AM »

Isnt the true definition of Racism to favor one group of people while treating others with a lack of ? For the federal government to offer up special treatment and preferential treatment to FN is inherently racist. Government sponsored racism. So my new Canadian friend is told this is a free country but yet he cant fish for Salmon but another ethnic group can.  Now I understand that the Federal government in the past made bad decisions because the Catholic Church told them to but I dont see how this is my fault. Holding citizens hostage because of the past errors from Catholic Church is plain wrong.
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CohoJake

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2019, 09:45:26 AM »

No, it is not racist to prioritize the rights of indigenous people to continue in what remains of their way of life before it was destroyed by colonists.  When the whole common law system of property ownership is based on who had possession first, but then the colonists say "well, except if it was one of those indigenous 'savages', they don't count", that set up the legal battles that still occupy both US and Canadian courts (and elsewhere in the world as well). 

The political dichotomy that I see in Canada is very similar to what I see in Washington State - the Liberals/Democrats are the only party that really cares about the rights of indigenous people, but they are also the only party that really cares about the environment, climate change, endangered species, and the survival of wild salmon.  The Conservatives/Republicans care about neither (I realize I am generalizing here for the sake of argument, please don't take offense if you are a conservative who cares about the environment).  This sets up an interesting problem where the conservative politicians don't care about over-harvest or habitat in general, because they don't support regulation and government spending, while the liberal side cares about preventing over-harvest but also about making sure the tribal/FN fishers get enough to maintain their way of life (which may be idealized but I would argue is still legitimate). 

The salmon harvest seasons and quota setting process in Washington appears to be somewhat more transparent than in BC, but the same issues are at play.  The legal entitlement of treaty tribes to 50% of all harvested salmon means that some rivers have been netted into oblivion so the state can continue to offer ocean sport fishing opportunities.  Don't forget that FN fishers and Treaty Tribes are generally the last ones to have access to  a particular run of salmon, and they generally don't have the luxury of being able to target runs that are heading to other states/countries/systems (with the exception of the Lummi tribe which conducts reef-netting and gill-netting on a limited harvest of Fraser sockeye and pinks when the quotas allow).  The up-river indigenous populations are the most restricted in the runs available for them to target. 

If I was working for DFO, my greatest fear would be court decisions that result in the BC FN having substantial harvest rights set in stone, because it will undoubtedly be at the expense of other users/harvesters.  I would tread very carefully and I would cater to the FN fishers exactly as DFO is doing here.

One other thing that has only been touched on - don't forget this is a multi-party negotiation, and there are far more players than just the Fraser river FN bands and the BC sport sector.  It has already been stated earlier in this thread that the good fishing off of Thrasher etc. right now is not for Fraser river fish, but for Washington bound fish.  Well guess what?  Seasons and quotas have been substantially cut down here too, partly to allow for the SRKWs and partly to allow endangered stocks to improve their escapement.  Marine Area 7, which runs from approximately the southern tip of Vancouver Island North to the international boundary is completely closed to salmon fishing for the month of August.   There are very few opportunities for BC fish to be intercepted in Washington, but major opportunities for California, Oregon and Washington fish to be harvested off of Vancouver Island as well as the Puget Sound fish that are caught near Victoria, Nanaimo and Vancouver.  And yes, I know, Alaska harvest screws everybody, I'm not happy about that either, but Alaska chinook harvests have been substantially restricted this year as well.
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Hike_and_fish

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2019, 11:02:36 AM »

By definition it is rascit.

FYI my family had their land stolen from the Soviets a long time ago. No reparation, no treaties and certainly no land to go back to.

I stand by what I said above. It is by definition racist to to favor one ethnic group over another. There is no changing that.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 11:06:38 AM by Hike_and_fish »
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IronNoggin

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2019, 11:09:27 AM »

... This action is one that is incomplete but it is the best solution that any government has proposed yet.

This statement shows well just how far off the mark you are in your understanding of the situation.

The Federal government caved into demands from FN's that all others be swept from the water and so used both the recreational and commercial sectors as negotiating points to service that particular form of blackmail. In Area G's May fishery, interception of Canadian Origin fish has been proven over decades to consist of less than one percent - and exponentially lower than that in the case of Fraser stocks of concern. The same can be said for many of the recreational fisheries. The largest and most continuous removals of these threatened / endangered stocks are via the in-river FN fisheries.
Paying the blackmail by forcing thousands off the water will do nothing to improve the fishery for the FN's nor anyone else.
The government understood that when it proceeded.
The FN's did as well, and now some are publicly stating they will not comply.

This was / is not a case of adhering to nor addressing conservation, it is rather a case of paying blackmail to one sector at the cost of all others. Period.

Quote
... Sometimes you have to amputate part of the leg to save the body and that line has gone far enough up the leg that the decision to get rid of the less healthy parts is the humane one.

Also well off the mark. Here's a close analogy:
YOU are sitting at your desk one day, when in walks a fed or two. Clear out your desk, you are leaving and you may not come back. When you demand to know why, the answer is "a select group of folks who happen to be more entitled than you (in our opinion) has decided they don't like you nor your employment. No, you really don't effect what they do at all, but we decided to cater to their demands. You are simply collateral damage. Now hurry up and please move along now".

No compensation even considered.

Many of those they are forcing off the water are in their 60's or more, and as such do not represent "good candidates" for retraining or re-entry into the work force.
Again, the government is completely aware of that.
Again they could give a rat's behind regarding whose lives, families and communities they put in jeopardy.
And for that, I fully intend to ensure they are held accountable.

For you see, I am one of those affected.
We may well lose our house.
Already relations with my Lady are beyond strained.
Life, as I built it and knew it is basically over.
With one stroke of the government pen.
That will realize no benefit to the resource whatsoever.

But they have given me something they did not count on.
Time.
Time to do whatever I can to ensure the public understands just what the reality of this situation is.
And time to do my damnest to ensure they pay in full at the polls this coming fall.

Extremely Upset,
Matt
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 12:04:03 PM by IronNoggin »
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clarki

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2019, 11:28:17 AM »

Hike and Fish, you keep saying "by definition". Your definition, perhaps.

Can you offer up any recognized third-party definition of racism that supports yours?

A quick google search of "racism" showed various definitions with the word "superiority" commonly being used. Nothing about the federal gov'ts policies construes a superiority, or inferiority, of races.

I get that you disagree with the policies and that your family suffered unjustly at the hands of an oppressive regime, but it's inaccurate to describe this gov'ts policies as "racist"         
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Hike_and_fish

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2019, 11:57:10 AM »

Hike and Fish, you keep saying "by definition". Your definition, perhaps.

Can you offer up any recognized third-party definition of racism that supports yours?

A quick google search of "racism" showed various definitions with the word "superiority" commonly being used. Nothing about the federal gov'ts policies construes a superiority, or inferiority, of races.

I get that you disagree with the policies and that your family suffered unjustly at the hands of an oppressive regime, but it's inaccurate to describe this gov'ts policies as "racist"       


rac·ism

/ˈrāˌsizəm/

noun

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Preferential treatment for one race over another is discrimination. Since this is strictly race bassed it falls into the definition of Racism. The "We were here first" diarrhea that keeps being repeated is tied to the superior  aspect of the definition of racism. We were here first. That makes us better than you.

It's quite alright to admit that its reverse racism. I would even go further and suggest by placing Canafians into ethnic groups and giving us labels is a major source to most of the hatred in this this country. When we all identify as Canadians I think itll be a better country. My 2 cents
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clarki

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2019, 01:37:47 PM »

We have differing "cents" that aren't likely to converge over a discussion on a fishing bulletin board. Cheers   
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Hike_and_fish

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2019, 02:09:31 PM »

We have differing "cents" that aren't likely to converge over a discussion on a fishing bulletin board. Cheers

My cents are based in a solid framework of equality and forward thinking. White guilt ( the sickness plaguing some Caucasians in this land ) is feeding the victim mentally that those who live on reservations seem to have.
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RalphH

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2019, 06:08:25 PM »

it could be arguably called discrimination though it is becoming increasingly regarded as repugnant to say discrimination can provide benefits to a group that has otherwise been so culturally and socially discriminated against. Various types of discrimination are justifiable and I think the argument it is so in this case is far stronger. BTW First Nations have been given priority access to salmon in Canada for reasons that had and have nothing to do with race. It has more to do with  history and the promises of previous governments. Truth is most first nations in Canada don't enjoy the specific right. It is only common in BC and those FNs in BC who don't live close to waters with salmon largely don't get much of it. Doesn't sound like racism in that light either.

BTW a large part of my family lost their land to 'The Soviets' as well. Years after they were mostly happy to be among the lucky who survived.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 06:54:01 PM by RalphH »
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dobrolub

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2019, 07:28:44 PM »

according to definition of racism this is not racist. it just feels pretty damn racist to me.

I can't fish because I am not an indian. Wasn't my choice when I was born, don't remember being asked, don't remember signing any papers to agree not to be an indian.

This day and age, I can make a lot of choices... I can identify as a women, as a men, become transgender, childfree, smoke marihuana. Just can't be an indian. Yeh, that sounds pretty racist to me.



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RalphH

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2019, 09:04:45 PM »

oh you can fish! There no question about that! ;D
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IronNoggin

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2019, 10:15:48 AM »

... Various types of discrimination are justifiable and I think the argument it is so in this case is far stronger...

Methinks you might be singing a different tune were it your butt getting kicked to the curb.

Nog
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 11:59:58 AM by IronNoggin »
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bravo252

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IronNoggin

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2019, 11:59:40 AM »

Old and intersting article.

Interesting that the very same fellow the article focuses on is now saying he & his people will not comply...   >:(

Nog
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RalphH

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Re: Draconian Fisheries Closures
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2019, 04:53:25 PM »

Methinks you might be singing a different tune were it your butt getting kicked to the curb.

Nog

happens everyday
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