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Author Topic: Dead coho with slit abdomen  (Read 25151 times)

Sandman

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2013, 06:45:23 PM »

Sandman you make the mistake of assuming your interpretation of the act is correct forgetting it's the interpretation of a) the enforcement officer and b) the judge most importantly. Taking all or parts of a dead fish is not excluded by the act and we know it's done frequently by sturgeon anglers.

No, mistake at all, as I specifically stated that what I was posting was my interpretation and that I am neither a lawyer nor a judge (for whom the final interpretation rests).
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Of course this is my interpretation and unfortunately (or fortunately for some) I have not passed the bar in BC and will not be presiding over any cases in court.
I also know that many sturgeon anglers grab floaters to use as bait, but I also know of a few that have been told by COs that it was illegal (at least that was what they told me the CO had told them).  They were seen by the CO scooping up a floater with their net, and came over and told them to put it back.  Since the regulations do not distinguish between a live fish or a dead fish, they we're taking a fish with a net, which is not allow under the act. I know of no one that has been charge with this offence, so I do not know if the courts have established this as precidence or not (which I would expect would be needed to clarify the section of the Act).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 07:10:35 PM by Sandman »
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TNAngler

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2013, 06:30:34 AM »

So the problem was they were taking it with a net?  What if they just reached in with their hands?

Seems very unclear and very CO specific on what they find could be wrong.
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RalphH

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2013, 07:37:16 AM »

In any case that goes before the courts one lawyer is right and one is wrong. I've never heard of a judge declaring it a draw and giving each lawyer a gold star. ;D

 A CO or other enforcement officer can say what they like. If ticketed the angler can pay the fine or challenge it as they like. The courts have ruled against tickets issued before and no doubt will do again. Are dead fish protected by the act? Is a dead fish 'a catch'? If someone happens upon a dead female fresh enough to have good roe is that an offense under any act or a windfall? Personally I don't see what harm there is if someone takes the roe from a doe carcass.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 11:17:26 AM by RalphH »
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Suther

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2013, 12:16:01 PM »

So the problem was they were taking it with a net?  What if they just reached in with their hands?

Seems very unclear and very CO specific on what they find could be wrong.

Hands would be illegal too. Only legal way to catch a salmon is with a hook in the mouth.
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dave c

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2013, 01:00:07 AM »

During this years pink run, on the south side about a mile upstream of the crossing I came across some backwater that had at least a dozen does gutted and floating in the water. 
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Sandman

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2013, 04:09:27 AM »

In any case that goes before the courts one lawyer is right and one is wrong. I've never heard of a judge declaring it a draw and giving each lawyer a gold star. ;D

 A CO or other enforcement officer can say what they like. If ticketed the angler can pay the fine or challenge it as they like. The courts have ruled against tickets issued before and no doubt will do again. Are dead fish protected by the act? Is a dead fish 'a catch'? If someone happens upon a dead female fresh enough to have good roe is that an offense under any act or a windfall? Personally I don't see what harm there is if someone takes the roe from a doe carcass.

Again, that was what I was saying.  Until a case goes to court and a judge makes a ruling one way or another (and I do not know if it ever has gone there), it is unclear.  I also do not think there is any "harm" taking roe from a dead fish, but as I said, I would not want to see someone tailing a half dead fish to scoop the roe and claiming it was dead already or it was going to die anyway so it is ok.  By leaving it that the only way to "take" a fish, dead or alive, is by "angling" (a hook and line with the hook in the mouth) it makes it clear that we are, first and foremost, fishing for sport, not harvesting for roe. Roe harvesting (taking fish for roe) is a commercial enterprise not a sport so is not covered under regulations for recreational angling.
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RalphH

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2013, 08:14:37 AM »

You change the topic to suit your point. It's not about harvesting fish or catching fish. its about what if anything a person can do with a fish carcass they happen to find on a stream bank.
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Sandman

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2013, 06:18:42 PM »

You change the topic to suit your point. It's not about harvesting fish or catching fish. its about what if anything a person can do with a fish carcass they happen to find on a stream bank.

Well, not exactly.  It is not like we are talking about whether they can just step on it or poke it with a stick now are we?  Or whether they can grab a bunch of carcasses and take them home for fertilizer.... Oh wait...are you saying they can do that?  Or can they just take the roe because they are just taking part of the carcass?  But wait, I forgot I am changing the topic again.

Oh, I see.   If I disagree with you and provide my reasoning why someone might not be allowed to take the roe from a fish carcass, then I am guilty of changing the topic.  Ok, you win Ralph, they can take the roe, and they can net floaters for their roe and bellies too.  We will remember it was you who gave the ok.
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RalphH

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2013, 08:58:02 AM »

it wasn't me who stated roe harvesting is a 'commercial enterprise' only (without any substantiation)or expressed concerns about taking roe from a half dead fish. Mushroom picking can be a commercial enterprise but I don't need a license if I want to do it. While a half dead fish isn't going to spawn anymore taking roe from it is almost certainly illegal. No one needs my or your permission to do anything. They can do as they wish and their conscience allows and if they contravene the fisheries act or whatever they can take the consequences. This is nothing new it's not like it has just started happening. I have been fishing around the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland for around 50 years and it goes back at least that far. Acting shocked about it phony indignation. If it's becoming such a problem, ban fishing with roe. Ban fishing with any fish or fish parts. Very simple. There are lot's of other good baits. Personally I don't fish with roe very often and wouldn't miss it.

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Johnny Canuck

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2013, 09:59:43 AM »

When is the fish considered half dead? If you think about it everything starts to die the second it is born...
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RalphH

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2013, 11:22:23 AM »

Wow Johnny you are so deep!

Ok let's set the definition of half dead to: lying on it's side, gils barely moving and all covered with fungus. Sound yummy?
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Johnny Canuck

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2013, 12:26:37 PM »

Wow Johnny you are so deep!

Ok let's set the definition of half dead to: lying on it's side, gils barely moving and all covered with fungus. Sound yummy?

So deep? As in thought? Or as in so low?

Think about it though, the body "starts" to die the moment it's born. When the body is young it's producing new cells much faster than the old ones are dying off. For example people shower everyday (I hope) why? To wash away dead skin which causes odors, your skin is dying all the time as are your blood cells.

I have never noticed the gills of the fish moving, just the gill plates...
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RalphH

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2013, 01:28:09 PM »

actually dead skin doesn't cause body odor that's caused by urea.
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Sandman

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2013, 02:08:17 PM »

it wasn't me who stated roe harvesting is a 'commercial enterprise' only (without any substantiation)or expressed concerns about taking roe from a half dead fish. Mushroom picking can be a commercial enterprise but I don't need a license if I want to do it.

That is because there is no "Fungus Act" (not yet anyway).  There is, however, a Fisheries Act and since roe is a part of a fish, it is covered under the Act (the Act defines a "fish" as "the whole or any part of an aquatic animal").

While a half dead fish isn't going to spawn anymore taking roe from it is almost certainly illegal.

Good, we agree then.  Therefore, the question is what happens once it dies, does it remain protected under the Fisheries Act or not?  If you believe it ceases to be covered under the act and I can do what I want with it (like take its roe), then you must also believe that I can take the whole fish (I mean if it is no longer protected under the Act, why not?). If I can take one fish carcass, then I must be able to take a dozen (I mean there are no quotas for dead carcasses right?).  I can load up my bag with a dozen carcasses and haul them off home, and if I am stopped by a fisheries officer, then I just tell him they were dead when I found them right?  Do we see any problem with this?  At very least there would need to be a definition of what constituted a dead carcass (ie: visible fungal growth), so that someone could not claim they were over the possession limit because they were dead already when they found them.  However, there is no such definition currently in the Act, and there is no distinction at all between live fish and dead fish in the Act, so a dead carcass is still covered under the Act and, therefore, you cannot harvest it, or the roe. 

No one needs my or your permission to do anything. They can do as they wish and their conscience allows and if they contravene the fisheries act or whatever they can take the consequences.

True, but the debate over the legality of the action (taking roe from a dead salmon) might help someone make the right decision and avoid a fine or at least an awkward encounter with a sympathetic fisheries officer.

This is nothing new it's not like it has just started happening. I have been fishing around the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland for around 50 years and it goes back at least that far. Acting shocked about it phony indignation.

I am not sure where you got "shocked" from or "phony [or even genuine] indignation" from, as I am neither shocked nor indignant about people taking roe from dead salmon.  I am simply interested in the legality of it, and the implications, if it is legal, of people exploiting such a loophole.  I also do not think the "it has been going on for years" is really a strong argument for it being legal or acceptable.  Poaching has been going on for at least 50 years too.

If it's becoming such a problem, ban fishing with roe. Ban fishing with any fish or fish parts. Very simple. There are lot's of other good baits. Personally I don't fish with roe very often and wouldn't miss it.

While I too would not miss it (I never use roe), a ban would be overkill to address this particular "problem" which I believe is already covered by the existing Fisheries Act.  It is my contention that you can, under the Fisheries Act, only take "fish" (living or dead) by angling (with the hook in its mouth), and you can only take roe from fish you have taken legally.  Therefore, taking roe from a carcass is not legal (although I am not going to lose much sleep over it if I see you doing it).  While you may disagree with me Ralph, and we have disagreed on many topics over the years, please provide your reasons for the disagreement, and do not accuse me of changing the topic to suit my arguments.  That was a Red Herring at best.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 02:11:07 PM by Sandman »
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Johnny Canuck

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Re: Dead coho with slit abdomen
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2013, 02:16:51 PM »

actually dead skin doesn't cause body odor that's caused by urea.

 :o  Nitrogen in the urine causes body odor?  :o

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/urea
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