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Author Topic: Letter To Director General Of OIE  (Read 20443 times)

Easywater

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2012, 02:51:04 PM »

So, they way I understand it is that if the OIE lowers the critieria for an area to be designated as "infected" then BC would then be designated as "infected" based on past lab results.

I assume that this would kill of the entire fish farm business in BC because their main buyer (the US) would no longer be able to purchase the Altantics from BC?
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2012, 02:57:37 PM »

People obviously only relate the above to farm fish but how would it effect wild fish exports.  Would visitors from outside canada not be able to take fish home?  What about commercial pacific caught fish?
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alexandramorton

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2012, 03:49:39 PM »

A couple of comments:

 The OIE just changed the rules (Sept. 2012) and now includes ALL ISA virus strains.  

I disagree about the difference between the disease and the virus.  It is a bad idea to burden wild fish with a virus known to kill them.  It's the difference between being HIV positive and having AIDS.  No one wants to be HIV positive.  If someone has another explanation as to how these European viruses got here, other than the 30 million Atlantic salmon eggs that have come in since 1986 lets hear the theory and see some data.  

The Norwegian scientist who testified at Cohen said ISA virus is in 80-90% of Atlantic salmon.  Whoever wrote the egg import certificate left out ISA virus. So when all those eggs came into BC, no one was promising there was no ISA virus. You have to ask why wouldn't it be here?  As for the heart-wasting virus - no one knew what it looked like till 2010. By then it had spread to millions of Atlantic salmon in Norway and elsewhere.  I think you might as well believe in the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny to think those viruses did not come into BC in Fish farm eggs.

I feel it is time to for the fish farm industry to  man up and get on with containing it.  Tough I know, but it is just going to get worse as more and more labs find it.  The industry are not doing themselves any favours hiding this.  It would only affect their market until they clean this up.  Has ISA virus infected fish been shipped over the border with no one knowing it? 

Yes wild salmon are affected, that is the whole problem.  However, the way they deal with sickness is, a predator removes them.... end of virus.  Nature cleans up dangerous pathogens very effectively.  Different from a fish feedlot where the fish just keeps shedding viruses until finally it wastes away and dies.  If we turn off the big sources of viruses they wild fish will have a fighting chance.


 

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aquapaloosa

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2012, 04:37:11 PM »

Quote
If someone has another explanation as to how these European viruses got here, other than the 30 million Atlantic salmon eggs that have come in since 1986 lets hear the theory and see some data. 

This is the first I have seen this.  Pretty interesting.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salmonfarmers.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fresearch-resources%2Ftimeline_atlantics.pdf&ei=qH_GULOjD8mXigK5g4DQDA&usg=AFQjCNHM5RHUgQEo_ETlumi3Y7skL1i2Cw

Perhaps the virus has mutated over the years to something less than what it used to be due to the nature of the pacific environment. 
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2012, 04:42:02 PM »


Perhaps the virus has mutated over the years to something less than what it used to be due to the nature of the pacific environment. 

Hopefully your fingers were crossed when you typed that....    ::)

The alternative theory is that the virus is mutating to something that will be very dangerous to the Pacific salmon.
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Disclosure:  This post has not been approved by the feedlot boys, therefore will likely be found to contain errors and statements that are out of context. :-[

aquapaloosa

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2012, 04:51:17 PM »


Quote
The alternative theory is that the virus is mutating to something that will be very dangerous to the Pacific salmon.

Well we sure have been lucky then for the last 137 years doncha think?  Of course you think that. lol
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Dave

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2012, 05:03:46 PM »

Hopefully your fingers were crossed when you typed that....    ::)

The alternative theory is that the virus is mutating to something that will be very dangerous to the Pacific salmon.

Sure, just like IHN and IPN could have ...but have not.
I for one am very glad you are contibuting to this discussion Ms. Morton and expect you will receive some hard questions when people are aware you are answering our concerns here on this site.     
You asked about the possibility of steelhead samples this winter - please explain why, what you are sampling for, and what do the sampling protocols entail.
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norton

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2012, 06:52:57 PM »

Most of the people here are steelhead fishermen, and fish for steelhead on the vedder/chilliwack system. You can keep hatchery fish on the river, so they would be available for testing.
 
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2012, 06:30:17 AM »

Alex,

There is no evidence to date that the piscine reovirus (PRV) causes HSMI.  It is misleading to call PRV the “heart and skeletal muscle inflamation virus”.  There have been correlative studies which have found that PRV is associated with HSMI (Palacios et al 2010), but that is not proof of causation.  Dr. Gary Marty did admit that 75% of farm salmon he tested were positive for PRV, but found no signs of HSMI.  In these cases, the tissues were actually examined to see if there was HSMI.  When you tested those “gutted” supermarket fish did you actually look at the tissues for HSMI or did you just assume that if they had PRV they must have HSMI based on correlative links?  Similarly, were those Cultus Lake cutthroat that were found to be positive for PRV examined for the presence of HSMI?  Actually your testing did show something – it showed the presence of PRV in healthy market sized fish is common in farmed Atlantic Salmon, but not the cause of disease in those fish.

The fact is that if 98% of those fish you purchased had a deadly virus they would not have survived to market size.  HSMI tends to affect younger fish – not the market size fish you purchased from Superstore and the T&T market.  This disease usually occurs 5-9 months after transfer of fish to seawater (Kontrop et al 2004).  This timing has been recently described by quantifying PRV from heart samples taken at different times in the Atlantic Salmon’s life cycle – right up to slaughter.  Viral loads decreased as fish approached 18 months in sea water.  Researchers concluded that sequencing of positive samples did not support the hypothesis that HSMI outbreaks are caused by a particular virulent strain of PRV (Lovoll et al 2012).  Additionally, right after the Palacios study, 150 Pink Salmon sampled from the Broughton area were tested for PRV.  None of them had suspicious heart lesions – all tested negative for the virus (Saksida et al 2012).   Clearly, the literature is not 100% supportive of PRV causing HSMI.

Simply finding PRV does not establish a HSMI diagnosis, Alex.  Even researchers that found a correlative link between PRV and HSMI agree with that (Finstad et al 2012).  You may disagree with the difference between a virus and a disease, but this is a fundamental concept to this whole issue.   There is a difference between a virus and a disease.  The two cannot be used interchangeably.  Fish farm critics do this repeatedly to prove their point and they are simply incorrect.  Just because you find a virus in the host does not necessarily mean that the host is suffering from a disease. Viruses are actually part of a larger equation which can involve environmental conditions, individual fitness, physiological stress, etc.   These other factors are actually more important than the presence or absence of any pathogen.  In addition, it is usually not just one sign that determines the presence of a disease – it could be more than two that are needed to make that determination.  You need to examine the tissues – preferably someone who is fish pathologist.  Lastly, the reporting of this PRV viral sequence is fairly recent (2010) and has not been officially described or seen using electron microscopy so there is very little information on the how long it has been here or where it came from.  If it were to be discovered in BC first then Norway would be saying it was 99% BC strain.  Merely saying that the BC and Norway strains are 99% identical does not tell us where this originated.

This does not mean that we should never look at PRV again or neglect to see if it has some other impact (i.e. fitness) or if it is in other fish species like Sockeye Salmon.  The issue for me is that I agree that we need to do more about learning about fish diseases, but I do not agree with “your” approach – nor do I find you to be as transparent as you claim to be.  For instance, I am still waiting to see your results from earlier this year when you claimed to found positive results of alphavirus at Lois Lake.  Why are you still refusing to let the rest of us know about these results?  In addition, I find your Department of Wild Salmon website to be vague and misleading - neglecting to state what “standardized protocols” you are using.


As for the contention “that viruses are pouring out into the biggest wild salmon migration route in the world along the eastern Vancouver Island” you forget to mention that Justice Cohen concluded that there is no evidence that diseases on fish farms are out of control or unusually high.  However, that should not mean that we do nothing.  I agree that our knowledge of the impacts of diseases on the survival of wild Salmon in BC is poor.  Cohen agrees that the risks warrant further investigation and has made recommendations to address them.  I agree with these recommendations, but it appears by your latest rhetoric that you are in the process of creating your own version of the Final Report by Justice Cohen – using selected quotes from testimony to back-up your claims.  It is clear what Cohen says about our current knowledge of ISA and ISAV here.  While I am interested in these new results you have I will wait to hear from other qualified individuals as I feel burned in the past by your annoucements.


Finally, seeing as though Dr. Gary Marty is your favourite target it is only fair to see what he had to say in response to your allegations.  Here is a Bionews article that members might find interesting.

 https://www.professionalbiology.com/sites/default/files/bionews/BioNews22-1-electronic.pdf

References:

http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v99/n1/p7-12/
http://www.veterinaryresearch.org/content/43/1/27
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15189375?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

Palacios, G., Lovoll, M., Tengs, T., Hornig, M., Hutchison, S., Hui, J., Kongtorp, R.T., Savji, N., Bussetti, A.V., Solovyov, A., Kristoffersen, A.B., Celone, C., Street, C., Trifonov, V., Hirschberg, D.L., Rabadan, R., Egholm, M., Rimstad, E. & Lipkin, W.I. 2010. Heart and skeletal muscle inflammation of farmed salmon is associated with infection with a novel reovirus. PloS One 5(7), e11487.

Saksida, S.M., G.D. Marty, S. St-Hilaire, S.R.M. Jones, H.A. Manchester, C.L. Diamond, and J. Bidulka.  2012.  Parasites and hepatic lesions among pink salmon, Oncorhynchus gorbuscha (Walbaum), during early seawater residence. J. Fish Dis. 35:137-151.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 08:33:15 PM by shuswapsteve »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2012, 06:34:04 AM »

Dave

As it stands right now, I would like to post results as they come in and I was doing that, but that came to an end.  While I can't talk about what went down, I can promise you the results will be published.

If anyone is fishing for steelhead this winter where you can keep the fish, please let me know.

Thanks!

Are you indicatiing that you know the results of the OIE audit and the weaknesses found at the AVC?  If you do not know, why didn't you ask the Director General of the OIE?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 06:42:55 AM by shuswapsteve »
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IronNoggin

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2012, 12:20:19 PM »

...If anyone is fishing for steelhead this winter where you can keep the fish, please let me know.

Definitely WILL Be. Please enlighten! Always willing to help out...

Cheers,
Matt
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curious

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2012, 04:41:51 PM »

The "Pick A Part Gang' is at it again as usual. ::)
 :o

"Under the pilot program the Harper government paid a media company $75,000.00 to monitor and respond to online postings about the east coast seal hunt'', reports news 1130.

http://www.beijingshots.com/2011/09/canadian-government-trolls-shills
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EZ_Rolling

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2012, 05:49:14 PM »

Curious don't be surprised to find out some of the posters on this site are on the payroll as well
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Dave

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2012, 06:17:15 PM »

Jaysus, so you say someone would pay me to support fish farms in BC?  Where do I sign up?

I hope we hear more from Ms. Morton soon as I and others have many questions regarding her agenda to rid BC of salmon farms. 
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Letter To Director General Of OIE
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2012, 08:50:52 PM »

Curious, if you are concerned that my latest post is attempt to spread state sanctioned propaganda by all means check out the literature on PRV and HSMI for yourself and come back to this forum and let me know about your results.  Do not take my word for it.  Feel free to check out the references I provided or go find other references if you truly believe I am trying to mislead you.

This latest (desperate) attempt to brand members on this forum as paid to troll the internet to defend government policy or downplay abuse is a really silly (basically like slinging mud).   It is the card anti-fish farm activists always play when they have very little to contribute.  Funny how anti-fish farm activists do not like conspiracy theories about Ms Morton transporting ISA infected Atlantic Salmon, but have no problem going  on some wild McCarthyism-like campaign making unsubstantiated claims regarding the motivations of people that do not share their opinion.  We can all love wild salmon, but can different opinions as to what the problems are as well as what are the best solutions.  Some of the people you think are these “shrills” actually work with salmon and trout as an occupation and devote most of their time and energy to helping make a difference even under challenging circumstances.

If you had ever cared to read my posts like the one that I posted right after the release of the Cohen Report you would have realized that I do not give our wonderful politicians back east a passing grade – especially after went down last month with the ”not-so” Merry Xmas present to Habitat employees.  I also directed members to read Legislative Amendments (Volume 3, Chapter 3) in the Cohen Report to make up their own mind about what these changes might mean.   By reading that post you would have learned that I would like to see more Fraser River Sockeye salmon research data available to the public and non-governmental scientists.  In addition, you would have also saw that I would like to see the DFO website revamped after this latest inquiry to make it easier for people like you to access information.   Yeah, sure sounds like I am trying to down play and cover things up…lol.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 08:52:25 PM by shuswapsteve »
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