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[alwaysfishn]

Today you seem to have taken on the role of Psychologist.... 

Your approach is similar to the approach many folks take in order to try achieve a level of credibility......  while they are plotting to rob you.

I'll use the financial services business as an analogy.....  Lehman brothers as you probably heard, went out of business. What happened was that they used their knowledge and expertise, as well as their position in the financial services business to create trading strategies that were highly risky and were doomed to fail given time. They convinced the public that they knew what they were doing and investors bought in....  The SEC was in their offices doing audits while this was going on yet they couldn't figure out what they were doing.... because the experts at Lehman Brothers were that good at spinning the truth. Of course the reason they were doing this was because their livelihood and big paychecks were at stake. The unfortunate investors who had bought their spin....... lost their retirement funds, savings and estates. The current financial mess was born and is no where near being solved.

The similarity to the feedlot business is striking! Experts such as yourself come onto various internet sites to not only spin the truth of the feedlot business, but they use techniques such as belittling and name calling to attempt to discredit others. The feedlot companies along with government are promoting the business because it means jobs, tax revenue and profits for these parties. Information about sustainability, disease, impurities in the product, pollution and the risks to wild salmon are spun and minimized in an attempt to convince the public that this is a viable industry. While the carnage to the environment is happening, the industry is padding their pocket books. While the feedlot business is not robbing retirees and investors, the story hasn't been written yet on how they are robbing us of our wild salmon.

While folks like Aquapaloosa seem like sincere, hard working folks who go to work each day so that they can feed their families, folks like you and absolon take the discussion to the next level by belittling and name calling. There is no question that you have more knowledge in the industry than people like myself. However like in the Lehman Brothers disaster, people in the feedlot business are using their knowledge and credentials to twist the truth, minimize risks and leave out facts in order to deceive the public. The theme is always the same "We are the experts, trust us."

I find that every time I ask the tough questions and you folks don't have an answer, you wave your credentials and resort to discrediting me. However, I expect that sort of reaction because the stakes are high. If we can get the pens out of the ocean, all the benefits that industry supporters are getting could be lost. On the other hand if we allow the feedlots to continue to exist in our ocean, our wild salmon populations may continue to decline and we as the public could lose our wild salmon.

You can continue to resort to belittling and name calling or just discuss the issue .....   either way I will still be around, trying to ensure that the feedlot business doesn't continue to rob me and my grandchildren of my right to enjoy the wild salmon.

[alwaysfishn]

This is true. I will not be doing your research for you. I do enough of my own already. If you want to learn more about sockeye life histories in the north Pacific, order Groot (I've read it cover to cover). IHN management in fish culture? The Alaskan sockeye salmon culture protocols.

And please, stop saying that IHN not being lethal to wild fish is a fiction. We all agree with you on this one! Yes, it can kill wild fish! IT does, and has done so for thousands of years!

Do the farms amplify? TBD. Unlikely.

I don't believe I ever requested that you do my research for me. Like others on this thread, you decided to make me aware of your expertise and "offered" to provide some raw data which only an expert could decipher. It was recognized for the belittling tact that it was.....

I appreciate your posts though, while the other experts spin the truth and avoid the obvious facts, you spare us from that.

[absolon]

Today you seem to have taken on the role of Psychologist.... 

Your approach is similar to the approach many folks take in order to try achieve a level of credibility......  while they are plotting to rob you.

I'll use the financial services business as an analogy.....  Lehman brothers as you probably heard, went out of business. What happened was that they used their knowledge and expertise, as well as their position in the financial services business to create trading strategies that were highly risky and were doomed to fail given time. They convinced the public that they knew what they were doing and investors bought in....  The SEC was in their offices doing audits while this was going on yet they couldn't figure out what they were doing.... because the experts at Lehman Brothers were that good at spinning the truth. Of course the reason they were doing this was because their livelihood and big paychecks were at stake. The unfortunate investors who had bought their spin....... lost their retirement funds, savings and estates. The current financial mess was born and is no where near being solved.

The similarity to the feedlot business is striking! Experts such as yourself come onto various internet sites to not only spin the truth of the feedlot business, but they use techniques such as belittling and name calling to attempt to discredit others. The feedlot companies along with government are promoting the business because it means jobs, tax revenue and profits for these parties. Information about sustainability, disease, impurities in the product, pollution and the risks to wild salmon are spun and minimized in an attempt to convince the public that this is a viable industry. While the carnage to the environment is happening, the industry is padding their pocket books. While the feedlot business is not robbing retirees and investors, the story hasn't been written yet on how they are robbing us of our wild salmon.

While folks like Aquapaloosa seem like sincere, hard working folks who go to work each day so that they can feed their families, folks like you and absolon take the discussion to the next level by belittling and name calling. There is no question that you have more knowledge in the industry than people like myself. However like in the Lehman Brothers disaster, people in the feedlot business are using their knowledge and credentials to twist the truth, minimize risks and leave out facts in order to deceive the public. The theme is always the same "We are the experts, trust us."

I find that every time I ask the tough questions and you folks don't have an answer, you wave your credentials and resort to discrediting me. However, I expect that sort of reaction because the stakes are high. If we can get the pens out of the ocean, all the benefits that industry supporters are getting could be lost. On the other hand if we allow the feedlots to continue to exist in our ocean, our wild salmon populations may continue to decline and we as the public could lose our wild salmon.

You can continue to resort to belittling and name calling or just discuss the issue .....   either way I will still be around, trying to ensure that the feedlot business doesn't continue to rob me and my grandchildren of my right to enjoy the wild salmon.

A ten minute segment about Lehman Brothers on 60 Minutes on television last night is not sufficient to explain the financial crisis. Lehman was a symptom of the problem, not the cause. To begin to grasp what went wrong one needs to actually look at the facts. To even get a sense of the problem I'd suggest you start with Stiglitz's Freefall, Krugman's Depression Economics, Wolin's Managed Democracy and Klien's Shock Doctrine. Those will give you a sense of where to look next and eventually, you will begin to get a sense of what went wrong. That, however, does require a desire to learn and the discipline to pursue it.

By the same token, an understanding of salmon biology isn't going to be obtained from light reading on the internet and a devotion to Morton's doctrine. Anyone who believes they can gain sufficient understanding of the subject by that method to legitimately contradict people who really do understand the subject because of a lifetime of study and experience is really doing nothing more than displaying their own lack of understanding. That lack of understanding is only countered by that same desire to learn and that same discipline to pursue it.

That lack of understanding isn't overcome by endless repetition of unsupported declarations of self-determined facts, unsubstantiated accusations of ethical lapses and incompetence, and snide personal comments. What you practice resembles more than anything else a Rovian style of political campaigning where facts are buried underneath a flood of misinformation and misdirection and by personal attacks on experts; an attempt to make quantity, volume and vehemence a substitute for quality.

Though you complain frequently that you personally are being belittled you have no problem with belittling and insulting those who disagree with you. Though you endlessly demand supporting information from those who contradict you, you have a substantial problem with providing support for those claims and contradictions of experts that you make. It is clear that you are not interested in examining the facts underlying the issue but instead are here to promote your personal perspective whether or not it agrees with the facts. It is that approach that earns you the response you get and it is that approach that is causing all the others who might support your ideas if they were presented in a more adult manner to back away from proximity to you.

You can stick around as long as you like. Indeed, your arguments and approach are probably causing the anti-farm reactionaries to lose rather than gain support.

[alwaysfishn]

A ten minute segment about Lehman Brothers on 60 Minutes on television last night is not sufficient to explain the financial crisis. Lehman was a symptom of the problem, not the cause. To begin to grasp what went wrong one needs to actually look at the facts. To even get a sense of the problem I'd suggest you start with Stiglitz's Freefall, Krugman's Depression Economics, Wolin's Managed Democracy and Klien's Shock Doctrine. Those will give you a sense of where to look next and eventually, you will begin to get a sense of what went wrong. That, however, does require a desire to learn and the discipline to pursue it.

By the same token, an understanding of salmon biology isn't going to be obtained from light reading on the internet and a devotion to Morton's doctrine. Anyone who believes they can gain sufficient understanding of the subject by that method to legitimately contradict people who really do understand the subject because of a lifetime of study and experience is really doing nothing more than displaying their own lack of understanding. That lack of understanding is only countered by that same desire to learn and that same discipline to pursue it.

That lack of understanding isn't overcome by endless repetition of unsupported declarations of self-determined facts, unsubstantiated accusations of ethical lapses and incompetence, and snide personal comments. What you practice resembles more than anything else a Rovian style of political campaigning where facts are buried underneath a flood of misinformation and misdirection and by personal attacks on experts; an attempt to make quantity, volume and vehemence a substitute for quality.

Though you complain frequently that you personally are being belittled you have no problem with belittling and insulting those who disagree with you. Though you endlessly demand supporting information from those who contradict you, you have a substantial problem with providing support for those claims and contradictions of experts that you make. It is clear that you are not interested in examining the facts underlying the issue but instead are here to promote your personal perspective whether or not it agrees with the facts. It is that approach that earns you the response you get and it is that approach that is causing all the others who might support your ideas if they were presented in a more adult manner to back away from proximity to you.

You can stick around as long as you like. Indeed, your arguments and approach are probably causing the anti-farm reactionaries to lose rather than gain support.

.....  apparently you are still reading my posts after I've given you numerous opportunities to ignore them.  Why is that?

You are consistently proclaiming yourself as an expert in aquaculture and put down anyone who you disagree with, now you are carry that through to the area of financial services. Is there any area that you are not an expert in?

The analogy of Lehman Brothers and the feedlot business is valid. Financial experts at Lehman pulled the wool over investors eyes, all the while benefiting personally, while the financial environment was badly damaged. The feedlot business is doing the same thing, risking the future of our ocean environment under the dubious premise that they are helping to feed the masses.

The future of the feedlot business won't be determined in this forum, and priding yourself on the idea you are "winning" is quite naive.

[absolon]

Thanks AF, you make my case for me. When it becomes obvious that someone has exercised the desire to learn and the discipline to do so your first response is to make personal comments denigrating those efforts and your second is to repeat your original simplistic and inaccurate pronouncement.

[alwaysfishn]

Thanks AF, you make my case for me. When it becomes obvious that someone has exercised the desire to learn and the discipline to do so your first response is to make personal comments denigrating those efforts and your second is to repeat your original simplistic and inaccurate pronouncement.

Still can't stop reading my posts, even though you find them offensive??

[EZ_Rolling]

Where did all these non fisher biology experts even come from ?
Why are you even coming every what seems hour to this and every other fishing websites?

Are you being paid to come here ?

You only seem to be here for your own personal agenda ...I have enjoyed Af 's fishing reports yet I have not seen any of the "experts" providing any "fishing" information,Report tip or suggestion or in anyway providing usefull "fishing" content
Do you read any of the fishing tips and tutorial sections or do you only look to spew your agenda which in the end makes you money ?

Really your life's must be miserable defending your position all the time,so you belittle people who chose not to go to the same classes as you in school.

I come here for reading about other people story's about their love of fishing not to hear all these agendas.
This is not a salmon farming website....

So again why are you here?

[Easywater]

So again why are you here?

There is a 50% profit in fish farming - for every $1000 they spend, they get $1500 back.

They are here to protect their massive profits...

[Bassonator]

Where did all these non fisher biology experts even come from ?
Why are you even coming every what seems hour to this and every other fishing websites?

Are you being paid to come here ?

You only seem to be here for your own personal agenda ...I have enjoyed Af 's fishing reports yet I have not seen any of the "experts" providing any "fishing" information,Report tip or suggestion or in anyway providing usefull "fishing" content
Do you read any of the fishing tips and tutorial sections or do you only look to spew your agenda which in the end makes you money ?

Really your life's must be miserable defending your position all the time,so you belittle people who chose not to go to the same classes as you in school.

I come here for reading about other people story's about their love of fishing not to hear all these agendas.
This is not a salmon farming website....

So again why are you here?

Can you read???...If so what is the title of this forum??...There ya go....then please stick to the other forums thank you. Again read before posting.And I appreciate them being here, just to help dispell some of doodoo that comes out of AFs yap.

[curious]

The analogy to Lehman Bros. is interesting . Also the role the Securities Exchange Commision played could be compared to the salmon farm regulators here,  it seems.

[curious]

Where did all these non fisher biology experts even come from ?
Why are you even coming every what seems hour to this and every other fishing websites?

So again why are you here?

As Easywater said, and it appears that they are just trying to manage public perception to favor salmon feedlots , poorly I might add.

[Bassonator]

It appears that they are just trying to manage public perception, poorly I might add.

Actually for a non scientist like me I quite appreciate them.
Oh Oh Rod another one trying tro get his posts up, to access fishing reports...

[curious]

No, I don't need the fishing reports, but really appreciate "The Fish Kitchen".

[shuswapsteve]

The similarity to the feedlot business is striking! Experts such as yourself come onto various internet sites to not only spin the truth of the feedlot business, but they use techniques such as belittling and name calling to attempt to discredit others. The feedlot companies along with government are promoting the business because it means jobs, tax revenue and profits for these parties. Information about sustainability, disease, impurities in the product, pollution and the risks to wild salmon are spun and minimized in an attempt to convince the public that this is a viable industry. While the carnage to the environment is happening, the industry is padding their pocket books. While the feedlot business is not robbing retirees and investors, the story hasn't been written yet on how they are robbing us of our wild salmon.

While folks like Aquapaloosa seem like sincere, hard working folks who go to work each day so that they can feed their families, folks like you and absolon take the discussion to the next level by belittling and name calling. There is no question that you have more knowledge in the industry than people like myself. However like in the Lehman Brothers disaster, people in the feedlot business are using their knowledge and credentials to twist the truth, minimize risks and leave out facts in order to deceive the public. The theme is always the same "We are the experts, trust us."

I find that every time I ask the tough questions and you folks don't have an answer, you wave your credentials and resort to discrediting me. However, I expect that sort of reaction because the stakes are high. If we can get the pens out of the ocean, all the benefits that industry supporters are getting could be lost. On the other hand if we allow the feedlots to continue to exist in our ocean, our wild salmon populations may continue to decline and we as the public could lose our wild salmon.

You can continue to resort to belittling and name calling or just discuss the issue .....   either way I will still be around, trying to ensure that the feedlot business doesn't continue to rob me and my grandchildren of my right to enjoy the wild salmon.

If you feel so strongly that I am not being forthcoming about IHN then feel free to find out information on IHN yourself, AF.  I do not have a problem with that at all.  The fact is that you have not even tried.  As for credentials it was you that decided to go down that road with me in your previous post (i.e. Sockeye life cycle and not being forthcoming about IHN).  You basically did a little belittling yourself.  If you are going to challenge someone like that you should be prepared for a response and don’t complain afterwards when things do not go the way you planned.

[Brian the fisherman]

Put fish farms on land. problem solved.

sanitize the water going out of the farm.

wild ANYTHING will not pass by this infectious virus.