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Author Topic: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito  (Read 54039 times)

alwaysfishn

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2012, 09:35:31 AM »

Considering you have contributed little if any information to these discussions I am surprised that you are interested in knowing what other people are thinking or what they do for a living.  Perhaps if you took these issues seriously, stopped the grandstanding, and quit trying to be such a comedian (actually a pretty bad comedian) people like me might take you seriously.  Your ignorance of Kintama and your boneheaded response pretty much sunk my opinion of you.  At the moment you are more like the background noise that I experience from the sonar I operate....however, with I little fine tuning it becomes quite irrelevant after awhile. 

Pay no attention Novabonker....   

......another case of trying to discredit a poster that doesn't agree with the pro feedlot agenda. Border line offensive post as well....  ::)
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Bassonator

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2012, 09:42:12 AM »

Pay no attention Novabonker....  

......another case of trying to discredit a poster that doesn't agree with the pro feedlot agenda. Border line offensive post as well....  ::)

I would pay attention. The offensive post is anything from AF.
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Novabonker

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2012, 06:35:02 AM »

Considering you have contributed little if any information to these discussions I am surprised that you are interested in knowing what other people are thinking or what they do for a living.  Perhaps if you took these issues seriously, stopped the grandstanding, and quit trying to be such a comedian (actually a pretty bad comedian) people like me might take you seriously.  Your ignorance of Kintama and your boneheaded response pretty much sunk my opinion of you.  At the moment you are more like the background noise that I experience from the sonar I operate....however, with I little fine tuning it becomes quite irrelevant after awhile.  

First off, your personal opinion of me means diddly squat.Pffffft! Maybe little buddy if you read my post below about my family having been in the commercial fishing business since they arrived in Nova Scotia in the mid 1700's, you might have some understanding of why I care about wild fish stocks. All I ever see from you and your posse is condescending commentary spewed towards any and all that dare to disagree with your self important commentary, backed up with self serving industry studies - usually put out by the feedlot companies. After the outright lies about escapes, all the "help" from Van Dongen and the Liberals, the "fish farmers" do nothing to instill confidence that they have my or the province's best interests at heart. Instead, I see a replay of what happened in the 60's and 70's in NS, when a Norwegian company kept inferring that whaling was a great business, sustainable and a new pony for everyone! We all know where that went. Anyone with the ability to critically think sees more holes than a screen door in the sputum delivered by the feedlot business, but carry on. You give more comic relief than I can ever hope to because if I didn't laugh at your diatribes, I'd be crying.

Secondly, you seem upset that I don't kowtow to Dave and his company. A thousand pardons, but has he done the same for my business? After all, I've designed, built and operated equipment related to my niche that reduces pollution by up to 80%. PUT MY NAME UP IN LIGHTS!. I play rugby with a group of guys that are anything from lawyers, dentists, geologists, even an ex premier. I don't suck up to them or anybody, so I don't see myself bowing when anyone "enters the room". I also didn't slap the moniker on his company, and surely he must have researched the name before he took it.

Now run along and go finish your paper route. ( and you still didn't answer the question about deriving income from the feedlots. Your new name is Sidestep Steve ;))



« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 06:39:12 AM by Novabonker »
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2012, 07:35:50 AM »

Maybe this will help.  Although it is clear that some here are not looking at other considerations.

Why is salmon farming so scary?

http://salmonfarmscience.com/2012/08/07/why-is-salmon-farming-so-scary/
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AnnieP

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2012, 08:52:08 AM »

First off, your personal opinion of me means diddly squat.Pffffft! Maybe little buddy if you read my post below about my family having been in the commercial fishing business since they arrived in Nova Scotia in the mid 1700's, you might have some understanding of why I care about wild fish stocks. All I ever see from you and your posse is condescending commentary spewed towards any and all that dare to disagree with your self important commentary, backed up with self serving industry studies - usually put out by the feedlot companies. After the outright lies about escapes, all the "help" from Van Dongen and the Liberals, the "fish farmers" do nothing to instill confidence that they have my or the province's best interests at heart. Instead, I see a replay of what happened in the 60's and 70's in NS, when a Norwegian company kept inferring that whaling was a great business, sustainable and a new pony for everyone! We all know where that went. Anyone with the ability to critically think sees more holes than a screen door in the sputum delivered by the feedlot business, but carry on. You give more comic relief than I can ever hope to because if I didn't laugh at your diatribes, I'd be crying.

Secondly, you seem upset that I don't kowtow to Dave and his company. A thousand pardons, but has he done the same for my business? After all, I've designed, built and operated equipment related to my niche that reduces pollution by up to 80%. PUT MY NAME UP IN LIGHTS!. I play rugby with a group of guys that are anything from lawyers, dentists, geologists, even an ex premier. I don't suck up to them or anybody, so I don't see myself bowing when anyone "enters the room". I also didn't slap the moniker on his company, and surely he must have researched the name before he took it.

Now run along and go finish your paper route. ( and you still didn't answer the question about deriving income from the feedlots. Your new name is Sidestep Steve ;))






What sort of pollution stuff do you build Novabonker ?  What sort of industries are using it and how does it work ?  Legitimate question as I'm interested to know what you've got that is able to reduce pollution by 80 % ? Are you able to market it successfully ? 8)
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Novabonker

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2012, 11:05:02 AM »

Packing up for holidays right now Annie, but be prepared for an extensive report on CFM, laminar flow,air velocity, water lift,vacuum relief,  static pressure, flow rates, impact and all kinds of fun stuff being done with electricity and not fuel power, if I get off the lake long enough to post it. ;) Were you also interested in learning about the flood extraction tools I'm currently working on? It holds both US and Canadian patents and should hit the market in 6 months to a year. BTW - I didn't invent any or all of the technology, I just used my 30 plus years to refine, harness and fine tune it.



See Sidestep Steve? Annie asks a question without the "little stupid people" tone and gets a respectful answer, with more info to come.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:10:29 AM by Novabonker »
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AnnieP

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2012, 11:21:11 AM »

Packing up for holidays right now Annie, but be prepared for an extensive report on CFM, laminar flow,air velocity, water lift,vacuum relief,  static pressure, flow rates, impact and all kinds of fun stuff being done with electricity and not fuel power, if I get off the lake long enough to post it. ;) Were you also interested in learning about the flood extraction tools I'm currently working on? It holds both US and Canadian patents and should hit the market in 6 months to a year. BTW - I didn't invent any or all of the technology, I just used my 30 plus years to refine, harness and fine tune it.



See Sidestep Steve? Annie asks a question without the "little stupid people" tone and gets a respectful answer, with more info to come.

Sure It sounds really interesting. We both know I may not understand a lot of it but I am always curious as to what people do for a living etc. Be a nice change from the rhetoric too LOL
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chris gadsden

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2012, 05:53:38 PM »

For people that want results of Alex's work check at the bottom of this.

Sampling Salmon through the Mighty Fraser by Ann.

 

It is time of the salmon again. The first nations people know this as they follow in the footsteps of their elders down ancient paths to the river to set up seasonal camps and once again collect and prepare that which has become them. Salmon. We were invited to come and sample fish for testing.

 

BoBo has been working with fish here for over 30 years and led us down to Bridge River.  Drying racks line each side of the river here and we were glad of his ability to take us down the short trail.  For fog loving Islanders the heat was almost staggering.  Councilor Darrel Bob points to his camp on the other side of the river and the "fish boys" have knowing smiles on their faces as they talk about the km plus hike straight up the mountain with a back pack of fish.  This is the first time Darrel has been on this side of the river. It is the respect for the health of the fish that has everyone working together to figure this out.

 

Through science we have learned that some first nations bones were made up of 90% salmon and through science today we are tracking European viruses. People want to know why many of these salmon are just disappearing or dying on the shores of their natal grounds without fulfilling a legacy to the next seven generations.

 

There is evidence to show that European Viruses potentially from salmon farm feedlots throughout the coast of British Columbia may be spreading their pathogens to wild stocks and many first nations we have met no longer have faith in DFO so they are calling to us.

 

We travelled to Boston Bar and Lillooet and were guided to traditional fishing spots with our cooler full of ice and sampling gear.  It was hot and sweaty and beautiful.  It was an honor and a privilege.  It's hard to describe the connection that these people have to their land and even though I think I can feel that connection I can only imagine what it means to have thousands of ancestors before me hand down their stories and their ways of living of the land. First Nations that have survived European disease and colonization and had an opportunity to learn from their elders can tell an early Stuart fish by it's shape and minor details and then choose to leave them to swim further north and feed their hungry brothers and sisters. 

 

We are testing fish above and below Hell's Gate, looking for a heart virus specifically and testing for other viruses.   When this study is complete we will publish results on the website www.deptwildsalmon.org after sharing them with the chiefs and fishermen the fish belonged to.

 

 

alwaysfishn

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2012, 09:14:24 PM »

Dave and all his pro-feedlot pro-salmon farm buddies must be thrilled to hear that Morton is going to publish her test results. I'm not sure what they will have left to complain about now.

Now if we could only get them to use their influence to get the feedlots to publish their disease records. We know they are producing viruses and sea lice, we just don't know how much of them they are producing.
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absolon

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2012, 09:40:53 PM »

We don't want to see Morton's results.................................

We want to see the lab's results.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2012, 09:55:59 PM »

We don't want to see Morton's results.................................

We want to see the lab's results.

How about we trade you lab results for feedlot disease records?
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2012, 11:58:14 PM »

We are testing fish above and below Hell's Gate, looking for a heart virus specifically and testing for other viruses.   When this study is complete we will publish results on the website www.deptwildsalmon.org after sharing them with the chiefs and fishermen the fish belonged to.

Hey Chris,

Thanks for sending the website.  That’s great that the “Dept. of Wild Salmon” is going to publish the results of this recent study, but I am disappointed that I still cannot find the recent lab results that were requested almost 2 months ago now.  Secondly, while browsing the site, I was interested to know if the "Dept. of Wild Salmon" sampled Sockeye Salmon carcasses from the Harrison.  I only see Coho, Chinook and Chum spawners mentioned.  It seems strange to me that with a river full of thousands of Sockeye carcasses (and with so much attention directed towards Fraser Sockeye) that there is not even a mention of them in their results - either positive or negative for any virus.  Lastly, when I look at the literature about PRV on their website I do not see any of the local literature, namely this study:

Saksida, S.M., G.D. Marty, S. St-Hilaire, S.R.M. Jones, H.A. Manchester, C.L. Diamond, and J. Bidulka.  2012.  Parasites and hepatic lesions among pink salmon, Oncorhynchus gorbuscha (Walbaum), during early seawater residence. J. Fish Dis. 35:137-151.

Seems to me that this site needs a little more work to make it more informative.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2012, 12:09:00 AM »

Now if we could only get them to use their influence to get the feedlots to publish their disease records. We know they are producing viruses and sea lice, we just don't know how much of them they are producing.

During the Cohen Commission, the commission council requested disease records from the BC industry.  Data going back to 2005 for 21 farms was initially requested.  Further information was requested, but a ruling on the submission of paper copies was made.  Check here for the rulings by Judge Cohen:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/Rulings.php

As for the rest of the publication about fish farming in BC, the province produced annual reports and put them on the following website for the public:
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/

As well as more information here for the public:
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/aqua_report/index.htm
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project5A-ExecutiveSummary.pdf

Here is one of the final submissions from the Province of BC regarding the recent ISAV reports:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalSubmissions/InitialISASubmissions/02-InitialISASubmission-ProvinceOfBritishColumbia.pdf

Finally, if you actually took the time to actually read the website you appear to align with you would have found the farm audit data which was released as PUBLIC evidence during the Cohen Commission, submitted by the BC Salmon Farmers Association:
http://deptwildsalmon.org/2012/03/08/farm-audit-data/

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alwaysfishn

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2012, 07:36:01 AM »

During the Cohen Commission, the commission council requested disease records from the BC industry.  Data going back to 2005 for 21 farms was initially requested.  Further information was requested, but a ruling on the submission of paper copies was made.  Check here for the rulings by Judge Cohen:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/Rulings.php

As for the rest of the publication about fish farming in BC, the province produced annual reports and put them on the following website for the public:
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/

As well as more information here for the public:
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/aqua_report/index.htm
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project5A-ExecutiveSummary.pdf

Here is one of the final submissions from the Province of BC regarding the recent ISAV reports:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalSubmissions/InitialISASubmissions/02-InitialISASubmission-ProvinceOfBritishColumbia.pdf

Finally, if you actually took the time to actually read the website you appear to align with you would have found the farm audit data which was released as PUBLIC evidence during the Cohen Commission, submitted by the BC Salmon Farmers Association:
http://deptwildsalmon.org/2012/03/08/farm-audit-data/



I realize they coughed up a limited number of the records under court order.....   That in itself revealed some of the disease outbreaks they had been hiding.

Today supposedly about 60% of the farms voluntarily provide disease records which are "compiled" into a report. Exactly what sort of value is a voluntary summary report providing, other than window dressing and public relations?  Why aren't they required to publish the disease records by individual farm today? They are crapping in our public oceans and aren't required to let us know what they are depositing.......   What are they hiding? Why are they allowed to hide that info?

Isn't it fair for them to reveal the same kind of detail that they/you are demanding of Morton?
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Alexandra Morton: A corporation is like a giant mosquito
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2012, 11:20:13 PM »

I realize they coughed up a limited number of the records under court order.....   That in itself revealed some of the disease outbreaks they had been hiding.

Today supposedly about 60% of the farms voluntarily provide disease records which are "compiled" into a report. Exactly what sort of value is a voluntary summary report providing, other than window dressing and public relations?  Why aren't they required to publish the disease records by individual farm today? They are crapping in our public oceans and aren't required to let us know what they are depositing.......   What are they hiding? Why are they allowed to hide that info?

Isn't it fair for them to reveal the same kind of detail that they/you are demanding of Morton?
They complied with what was requested from the commission - read the rulings.  The raw data has been summarized by the province in the annual reports which debunks your theory that farms are hiding something.  The reality is that the raw fish health data that is generated by the fish farms will likely mean very little to the average member of the general public.  There are some people that know how to interpret this sort of data and take a keen interest in it (I have no problem with experienced people looking at raw data), but it can be easily misinterpreted if you don't have any biological experience such as fish pathology or virology.  In the extreme case, raw data can be manipulated and with the conclusions published in the press incorrectly.  There can also be negative biological consequences for misinterpreting data.  That is why it is not just released to anyone at anytime.

Morton has created the myth that she and most members of the general public are being cheated out by not looking at these raw data records.  The fact of the matter is that it is not uncommon to compile data like this and summarize it in reports.  I deal with exclusively with raw data on a daily basis and I can tell you that the numbers by themselves would mean very little if you did not have an understanding how they fit into the bigger picture.  This understanding comes with education and experience.  It is not learned over the internet or watching the news.  Broadly speaking, interpretation and analysis of the results is often necessary before it actually makes sense - even to those that collected the data in the first place.  There is also a big issue as to how the data is saved and in what format.  Older data is likely in hard copy paper format which is much more difficult to archive and retrieve than modern electronic copies.  It is not a simple exercise to just open a filing cabinet and you automatically find what you need.  Some data on paper may be non-legible, torn or collected in such a way that it is confusing to interpret years later.  Ever tried to interpret someone’s notes regarding data collected many years ago?  I have and it is not easy exercise.  You then need the personnel in order to devote the time to retrieve and compile this paper data and put it in a more useable electronic format.  You may choose to not believe me, but I have 20 years at this so I speak from experience.  With more and more people online these days and taking more of an interest in environmental data I believe this type of information will slowly make its way onto the web more and more each year.

What sort of value are these reports?  Well, to you they might not have much value at all because you have not really read and understood what I have posted for you already.  For one thing, you are incorrect when you call them “voluntary summary report” and they are more than just “window dressing”.  Secondly, you still do not understand the sampling methodology that was employed by the province in their audits (previously discussed at length in another thread on this site).  Sorry, I do not have the time to keep repeating it for you, AF.

Why aren't they required to publish the disease records by individual farm today?  You need to read the new federal regulations and understand the sampling methodology.  I am not going to do your research on this.  If you have a computer or a phone you can do this on your own.  A better suggestion is to actually contact those responsible for monitoring.

As for detail, in my opinion, the “Dept. of Wild Salmon” website does not even compare to the level of detail produced by the province or the feds.  Governments have their shortcomings, but in this instance they deliver far more detail and professionalism than this activist site.  The “Dept. of Wild Salmon” site looks unprofessional by leaving many questions unanswered.  For instance, what are these “standardized protocols” they are following?  With the government reports I posted previously, sampling methodology is outlined in much more detail.  That is the difference between someone that does not know what they are doing (i.e. Ms Morton) and someone that actually does (i.e. Dr. Gary Marty).  In addition, there is absolutely no mention of Harrison Sockeye.  Considering Ms Morton spent considerable time at Harrison Mills last year one would think that either positive or negative results would have made it onto that site.  To you, that site might be impressive, but to me it is kind of a joke.  If Morton truly believes that the public deserves to be informed then she would do a better job with that site.

Actually, it would be “fair” for people like Morton to be releasing the same sort of detail as she is demanding from the province and federal government.  Considering the extensive reporting that the province and the feds have to do and the transparency that is demanded, I do not believe it is totally unreasonable to request that Ms Morton be a little more transparent herself by releasing these recent lab results.  She has already released her conclusions on the results.  What is of particular interest to me are the notes and interpretation done by the lab – not just the individual fish results.  I would like to know what her lab had to say.  We are not talking about a lot of fish here.  The level of detail demanded from these lab results doesn't compare to what the province, feds or fish farms have to produce.  Again, if the results match her conclusions (which she boldly made on her blog) then she should have no problem with this.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 11:32:56 PM by shuswapsteve »
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