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Author Topic: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?  (Read 976 times)

silver ghost

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So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« on: May 16, 2012, 03:42:49 PM »

Came across these slides presented by Forest Ethics in my inbox, regarding the real benefactors of the implementation of a pipeline in B.C. - it has a complete breakdown of most oil companies who operate in Canada, and who is making all the money from them.

http://forestethics.org/who-benefits
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troutbreath

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 04:06:55 PM »

Harper and other conservative governments here have always sold Canadians out. When that pipeline is built (hopefully never) we will be paying at least double for gas here. All the production should be done in Canada. Free trade sold us out to the highest bidder. The GST begat the HST.
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anorden

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 05:44:04 PM »

So basically most of the oil refined on the East coast is imported from Europe Africa and the Middle East. And Canadian oil is either used in BC AB or SK, else exported south.

The Forestethics report is a bit oversimplistic because oil from the tar sands is a b-tch to refine; essentially the refineries on the east coast would need to be modified to run Canadian oil. And someone would need to pay for and build a big pipeline across the prairies. Economically it makes more sense to send it south and let them pay for the pipeline. They basically dont need to upgrade their refineries as they mix it with US derived lighter oils so they dont have the refining problems that would be faced in Canada
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alwaysfishn

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 06:01:59 PM »

So basically most of the oil refined on the East coast is imported from Europe Africa and the Middle East. And Canadian oil is either used in BC AB or SK, else exported south.

The Forestethics report is a bit oversimplistic because oil from the tar sands is a b-tch to refine; essentially the refineries on the east coast would need to be modified to run Canadian oil. And someone would need to pay for and build a big pipeline across the prairies. Economically it makes more sense to send it south and let them pay for the pipeline. They basically dont need to upgrade their refineries as they mix it with US derived lighter oils so they dont have the refining problems that would be faced in Canada

Please refrain from adding any logic or facts.....   this is an issue that is being decided on emotions. Perhaps you could rather tell us how to "feel" about paying for an eastern pipeline and spending whatever billions required on upgrading our refineries so that we don't have to export this resource out of the country in exchange for a premium dollar....  ??? (sarcasm)
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BwiBwi

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 08:52:48 PM »

Oil and gas industries required huge capital investment.  Companies started off as 100% Canadian owned would not be able to expand/upgrade fast enough without going through public offering. 
When companies goes public there is no control where those shares would go to.  It doesn't matter who's in power in Ottawa.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 07:34:10 AM »

Oil and gas industries required huge capital investment.  Companies started off as 100% Canadian owned would not be able to expand/upgrade fast enough without going through public offering. 
When companies goes public there is no control where those shares would go to.  It doesn't matter who's in power in Ottawa.

More facts and logic...... 
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Dave

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 01:03:19 PM »

More facts and logic......  

And I appreciate it.  Some thought provoking posts there folks.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 04:04:46 PM by Dave »
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troutbreath

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 03:29:25 PM »

Yes really lets stay factual:

http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/eras/trudeau/petro_canada.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro-Canada


I think you will find what I said about the Conservatives (Bullroney) sold us out. Were back to the good ol day's of back room deals for supporters of the corrupt Conservatives.
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StillAqua

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 09:22:45 PM »

There's no problem refining oil sands bitumen in Canadian refineries. East coast refineries could refine it if there was a cheap way to get it to Montreal. Most refineries in Canada and the US are operating below capacity right now.

The real problem is cheap refining capacity in China and India due to low wages, low standards of living, no health and safety standards, less taxes, few environmental standards, government subsidies, etc . For example, the Burnaby refinery that processes raw bitumen piped from the oil sands through the existing Kinder Morgan pipeline may close because they can't refine it as cheaply as China or India who can outbid them for the purchase contracts, even with tanker shipping costs. If they twin the KM pipeline to Burnaby, the Burnaby Refinery will certainly close and we'll lose those jobs and west coast capacity to refine our own Canadian oil in a world shortage.

Why such a rush to exploit and exhaust our domestic oil reserves when their value as a commodity and future oil security grows the longer they are left in the ground and world oil reserves begin to deplete? Short term economic growth and profit.....mostly China's though.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 09:54:52 PM »

The oil companies get at least $30/barrel more for the oil they ship outside of North America versus the oil that stays in North America.  The oil companies nearly double their profits on any oil they are able to export. Governments also benefit because the more profit the oil companies make, the more taxes the oil companies pay. Refined oil products cost roughly the same to produce whether they are refined in China or in North America. The major advantage China has is their low labor costs and refineries don't employ a lot of people.

Oil refineries in North America are set up to refine a specific type of raw oil. Therefore a refinery processing well oil cannot switch to processing tar sand oil without a major investment. If east coast refineries started processing oil from the tar sands they would have to stop refining the imported oil that they currently process.
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StillAqua

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 10:20:34 PM »

The oil companies get at least $30/barrel more for the oil they ship outside of North America versus the oil that stays in North America.  The oil companies nearly double their profits on any oil they are able to export. Governments also benefit because the more profit the oil companies make, the more taxes the oil companies pay. Refined oil products cost roughly the same to produce whether they are refined in China or in North America. The major advantage China has is their low labor costs and refineries don't employ a lot of people.

Oil refineries in North America are set up to refine a specific type of raw oil. Therefore a refinery processing well oil cannot switch to processing tar sand oil without a major investment. If east coast refineries started processing oil from the tar sands they would have to stop refining the imported oil that they currently process.

Suggest you read John Iverson's article in the National Post about the Chinese and Indian super-refineries and our Burnaby refinery. They can build new refinery capacity and upgrade existing capacity much cheaper than we can for obvious reasons. Yes it costs a lot of money to build new "upgrade" facilities in Canada......that's the whole point......investment and jobs.....in Canada. The Burnaby refinery already refines bitumen shipped down the KM pipeline; we have the capacity and ability to refine it and more but China and India outbid us for our own oil.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/02/john-ivison-political-will-not-enough-to-fuel-new-oil-sands-refineries/

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wacker

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2012, 10:41:24 AM »

The best of my knowledge there is no bitumen at the chevron refinery at this time. Tar sand mixed with bitumen is piped from fort macmurray to edmonton where the oil is upgraded and seperated from the bitumen. The bitumen is then piped back to fort mac while the oil is piped to burnaby for further refining. The word I have been hearing is that the chevron refinery in burnaby is to be closed ... I assume to make room for a large storage tank farm for the added capacity from the proposed pipeline. This plan to ship out unrefined oil from canada is just classic bumbling **ithead politics akin to shipping out raw logs. My question is at  least if there was an  oil spill there is some technology available to assist in cleanup, by targetting obvious black oily deposits , using dispersants etc. How would our trusted oil companies clean up a bitumen spill? Bitumen is similiar to kerosene only more corrosive and would be lost into the ground or water or both pretty much instantly. Sick of all the greed in this world......
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alwaysfishn

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2012, 11:59:15 AM »

Suggest you read John Iverson's article in the National Post about the Chinese and Indian super-refineries and our Burnaby refinery. They can build new refinery capacity and upgrade existing capacity much cheaper than we can for obvious reasons. Yes it costs a lot of money to build new "upgrade" facilities in Canada......that's the whole point......investment and jobs.....in Canada. The Burnaby refinery already refines bitumen shipped down the KM pipeline; we have the capacity and ability to refine it and more but China and India outbid us for our own oil.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/02/john-ivison-political-will-not-enough-to-fuel-new-oil-sands-refineries/



Our refineries do not compete with Indian or Chinese refineries. There are not any finished fuel products being imported from these countries. The reason is that these countries pay roughly 30% more than what Canadian and US refineries pay for the raw oil. The additional cost plus the shipping costs to send it back to Canada would more than make up for any labor cost savings they have.

The sole reason for exporting raw oil is that the oil companies receive roughly a 30% premium when they export the raw product. The other reason is that Canada cannot consume all of the oil it pulls out of the ground. Putting it in storage tanks does not generate any cash.
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Bassonator

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Re: So, Who benefits from the tar sands?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2012, 04:06:06 PM »

The best of my knowledge there is no bitumen at the chevron refinery at this time. Tar sand mixed with bitumen is piped from fort macmurray to edmonton where the oil is upgraded and seperated from the bitumen. The bitumen is then piped back to fort mac while the oil is piped to burnaby for further refining. The word I have been hearing is that the chevron refinery in burnaby is to be closed ... I assume to make room for a large storage tank farm for the added capacity from the proposed pipeline. This plan to ship out unrefined oil from canada is just classic bumbling **ithead politics akin to shipping out raw logs. My question is at  least if there was an  oil spill there is some technology available to assist in cleanup, by targetting obvious black oily deposits , using dispersants etc. How would our trusted oil companies clean up a bitumen spill? Bitumen is similiar to kerosene only more corrosive and would be lost into the ground or water or both pretty much instantly. Sick of all the greed in this world......

Ask the people of Michigan on how their clean up is going on the Kalamazoo...
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