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[Dave]

Were you expecting the hatchery fish to act all privileged?
"This place is filthy. I'm not spawning until you clean up that gravel" 

Sorry, I suppose I should have been more explicit for a few readers – but I was on my way out fishing The people I count these fish with are good at it – between us we have about 100 years of experience.  We all agreed the steelhead we counted last spring were more wary than other salmon we had experience with; perhaps because steelhead are not programmed to die after spawning they are indeed so; who knows?  What we saw several times was fish able to detect us far sooner than we expected.  Understand, they did not see us but still were able to detect something amiss.  Most times, but not always adipose fins (especially in aggressive males) are visible.  I have never observed an adipose clipped steelhead on these enumerations.
We watched them pair off, defend mates, chase off other males and smaller resident trout, and spawn.
That's what I meant by acting wild.
My personal opinion is if a Chilliwack River hatchery steelhead that is just one generation away from wild is spawning, as it should be, gametes from that union rearing, as they should be, that's just fine.

[typhoon]

My personal opinion is if a Chilliwack River hatchery steelhead that is just one generation away from wild is spawning, as it should be, gametes from that union rearing, as they should be, that's just fine.

Sorry are you saying that a hatchery steelhead that spawns produces offspring that are "as good" as wild?

[Dave]

Well, you define good

[typhoon]

? Are you saying that only wild fish (missing adipose) spawn and that the offspring of two hatchery fish behave as wild?

bigblue's comment was that we should kill misclips to prevent the hatchery fish from reproducing and harming the wild genetic pool.
For the number of years that stocking has occurred simple statistics would say that there are no true wild fish left in the river.

[Dave]

For the number of years that stocking has occurred simple statistics would say that there are no true wild fish left in the river.

I don't argue that statement.
Of course hatchery fish spawn (they are the ones with a missing adipose btw )
And yeah, I do believe if 2 hatchery fish spawn in the wild their offspring will behave as wild fish.  If they don't they will die, just as some pure wild (but you aren't sure they exist?) would.  Survival of the fittest and which fish is missed by the merganser.

[Sandy]

I don't argue that statement.
Of course hatchery fish spawn (they are the ones with a missing adipose btw )
And yeah, I do believe if 2 hatchery fish spawn in the wild their offspring will behave as wild fish.  If they don't they will die, just as some pure wild (but you aren't sure they exist?) would.  Survival of the fittest and which fish is missed by the merganser.

kinda like; how long does it take to be considered a local.

 Then there is the issues with residualisation or a wild male doing the dirty with a hatchery fish. In my question I was meaning is there a section of river above the hatchery that was left to nature-ish?
Do some Hatchery fish by-pass the hatchery and head on up river to spawn?

Dave has hatchery stock been transplanted above foley creek ?

my questions are in no way meant to cause argument just simple education and polite debate.

BTW Dave ,watching sheep doing he wild thing is a way warmer or there is also cable TV, but what ever does it for you, but glad you share the knowledge gained.

[Dave]

BTW Dave ,watching sheep doing he wild thing is a way warmer or there is also cable TV, but what ever does it for you, but glad you share the knowledge gained.

Sorry Sandy, I'm not into sheep but have made a life I love from fish.
Hatchery parr are released below the Vedder Crossing bridge. This release strategy does a reasonably good job of keeping "wild" and hatchery marked fish apart while rearing. In the perfect world for steelhead that existed about 200 years ago, we wouldn't be discussing this but this 2012.
The C-V is an hour away from 2M people. Considering that, and the fact this system still functions as well as it does, speaks well of something … perhaps the closed to angling area, and it's protective environment for the fish that make it that far; most definitely the wise decision to use only adipose intact fish for hatchery broodstock … but I think what keeps adipose intact fish returning to this, the most heavily fished steelhead river in BC, is the off channel habitat available in the upper river along with the ongoing nutrient replacement program administered by the BCCF.

[blaydRnr]

Next question....would the hatchery accept these so called mis-clipped/deformed adipose steelhead into their brood stock program on the basis that they still have their fin partially intact? because according to some CO's they are adamant about them being considered wild.

Just thought I would take it to a different angle of approach.

[Dave]

Next question....would the hatchery accept these so called mis-clipped/deformed adipose steelhead into their brood stock program on the basis that they still have their fin partially intact? because according to some CO's they are adamant about them being considered wild.

Just thought I would take it to a different angle of approach.

Give them a call at 604-858-7227 and ask.

[alwaysfishn]

Next question....would the hatchery accept these so called mis-clipped/deformed adipose steelhead into their brood stock program on the basis that they still have their fin partially intact? because according to some CO's they are adamant about them being considered wild.

Just thought I would take it to a different angle of approach.

I believe a miss-clip is classified as "half wild" so it wouldn't qualify for the "all wild" hatchery brood program.....     

[typhoon]

What the hatchery does with its brood stock really has nothing to do with this discussion.
I would hope that they filter the unclipped fish that they use - i.e. a deformed fish would not be used even if it successfully reached the river.
Thus it is perfectly valid for them to filter a misclip even if it is considered "wild" for angler retention purposes.

What we should take from this is that the hatchery should be more careful in clipping so we don't have this problem.
Perhaps all of us could volunteer to help in this process. I'm certainly willing.

[blaydRnr]

What the hatchery does with its brood stock really has nothing to do with this discussion.
 

well considering the Vedder/Chilliwack is open to retention of hatchery marked fish, it has everything to do with them because it all starts with them...if it was a non retention fishery then this whole discussion would all be irrelevant...wouldn't it?

[blaydRnr]

What we should take from this is that the hatchery should be more careful in clipping so we don't have this problem.
Perhaps all of us could volunteer to help in this process. I'm certainly willing.

I agree to an extent, but because they rely on much needed volunteer work, i would be hard pressed to criticize nor magnify the flaws in their methods. I would rather see an adaptation of the Adipose Recognition Program which is now in place in some States.

[Sandy]

Sorry Sandy, I'm not into sheep but have made a life I love from fish.
Hatchery parr are released below the Vedder Crossing bridge. This release strategy does a reasonably good job of keeping "wild" and hatchery marked fish apart while rearing. In the perfect world for steelhead that existed about 200 years ago, we wouldn't be discussing this but this 2012.
The C-V is an hour away from 2M people. Considering that, and the fact this system still functions as well as it does, speaks well of something … perhaps the closed to angling area, and it's protective environment for the fish that make it that far; most definitely the wise decision to use only adipose intact fish for hatchery broodstock … but I think what keeps adipose intact fish returning to this, the most heavily fished steelhead river in BC, is the off channel habitat available in the upper river along with the ongoing nutrient replacement program administered by the BCCF.

agin Dave , very much appreciated. And I get it!

[Sandy]

I agree to an extent, but because they rely on much needed volunteer work, i would be hard pressed to criticize nor magnify the flaws in their methods. I would rather see an adaptation of the Adipose Recognition Program which is now in place in some States.

were there perhaps an inordinate amount of miss-clipped parr released in past cycles, or are the numbers "parr" for the course? Sorry