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Author Topic: The HST vote - making a decision  (Read 124120 times)

Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2011, 09:20:02 PM »

my biggest beef with any tax is the lack of public access to information on how the funds are allocated and managed... it all comes down to trust....back in 2009 the bc government bragged about having a 50 million dollar surplus during a budget forecast...only to uncover an actual deficit of 1.4 billion dollars....don't believe everything you read, unless it's backed with concrete fact and evidence.

this is not to say i'm anti tax...i just believe in accountability, that's why i buy locally rather than cross border for the sake of saving a few bucks...but even there, you can't blame canadians for refusing to pay more for what they know is over priced to begin with.

Thank you!



Yes - Cut and pasted below, but very well thought out and far better articulated than I am capable of.

I'm not sure if a good many of our politicians are dumber than stumps or just easy pickings for lobbyists. Either way, critical thinking doesn't seem to be their forte.

Why does a person, or group of people, start a business venture in the first place? Is it to create jobs for the great unwashed? Not likely. Is it to make money? Hello!

Is there a direct correlation between taxation and the number of employees a company will utilize? It is doubtful, unless the taxation levels are so onerous that the company cannot afford to hire enough employees to keep their business venture viable, which would most likely see them close shop. The myth that a business will hire more people on the basis of tax relief makes no sense. They will hire more employees if and when they require them in order to be a viable entity. Even then, it will only happen when they have maximized the output from their existing staffing level and have no choice but to hire more people or begin to lose market share.

The Canadian banks are in an even more enviable position because as long as they play ball with the feds, they will not face any real competition from foreign entities. When can anyone attribute the major banks in Canada suffering losses attributed to taxation levels. Certainly not in my lifetime. Their few blips on the profit side of the ledger have occurred by becoming more willing to take risks in foreign countries.

As a matter of fact, the arguments brought forward by Carole Taylor on the elimination of the corporation capital tax regarding job gains can be applied to the arguments brought forward by the BC Liberal Party with regards to the HST.

Lastly, who will have the honour of making up for this $100+ million shortfall each year going forward? I can guarantee it won't be the politicians. It will be John Q. Public, either in the form of higher taxes/government imposed fees or a reduction in health, education or other supportive services. Remember, government has no money, only the ability to take money from someone to give to someone else.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 06:57:32 AM by Novabonker »
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CameronT120

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2011, 09:01:24 AM »

If you cut and pasted that, it would be nice if you would provide a link or reference to the source.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2011, 05:15:17 PM »

If you cut and pasted that, it would be nice if you would provide a link or reference to the source.

What does it matter? It shows a good bit of common sense.But since your post re:
It's all right.  I've no use for carpet cleaners anyways.

Why would I offer you that courtesy or go through the bother?  ??? ;) :o :o  To set up another personal attack or maybe post some more of my personal info? Attack the message, not the person.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 05:57:19 AM by Novabonker »
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CameronT120

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2011, 10:05:00 AM »

Citing the source is just a simple courtesy to the original author.  To fail to do so is called plagiarism.

As for your personal info, you posted it for all to read.  I really didn't have to do anything, so I'm not sure why you're getting your panties in a wad.

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=17050.msg165039#msg165039

As for personal attacks, go back and read your own posts since the beginning of your HST/Government rants.  You seem to have problems being civil to anybody who offers a view counter to your own. 
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2011, 05:03:45 PM »

Then let's all take a deep breath and try civility for a switch. Obviously, we disagree on a few subjects, to slightly understate. Just mildly. I have strong opinions, but I can admit to getting a bit carried away as we all can - you included. The war of the keyboards hits a ceasefire.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 07:48:00 AM by Novabonker »
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2011, 06:34:38 AM »

How much the tax load has shifted:( No "plagiarism" here folks  ;D)

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Politics/2011/02/06/DixSparksDebate/

Liberal Kevin Falcon has set himself up as the business leadership candidate. Now New Democrat hopeful Adrian Dix has claimed the opposite side.


Dix took one of the bolder positions of both campaigns so far by saying he would raise corporate taxes to fund needed services. It's striking how little real discussion there has been of the dramatic business tax cuts over the last decade and the resulting service cuts and much higher taxes and fees paid by individuals and families. It's been a big shift. You can't readily allocate all government revenues to individuals and business. Both pay the carbon tax, for example.


But even a rough cut at the numbers shows companies are paying a far smaller share of the government's bills than they did a decade ago. In 2001, direct corporate taxes and royalties of various kinds provided about 22 per cent of government revenues. Today, after tax changes by the Campbell government, that's down to about 10 per cent. Despite inflation and economic growth, corporations are paying about $1 billion less in readily attributable taxes than they were in 2001, a drop of about 20 per cent.


Individuals and families are paying about $8 billion more, an increase of about 60 per cent. (The change isn't just in income taxes. MSP premiums, for example have increased more than 80 per cent; the government is also taking in more indirectly, through B.C. Lotteries, for example.)

You can argue the details. But the shift is undeniable and large. Corporations and businesses are paying a greatly reduced share of the province's bills.


That's by design, and a perfectly legitimate policy. The theory is that lower taxes would encourage companies to invest here, which would mean jobs and growth. Families would have to pay more to make up for the corporate tax cuts, but, in theory, benefit from a strong economy.

But we haven't had a real public discussion about the tax shift. In part, that's why the HST -- which shifted $1.9 billion a year off corporations and onto individuals and families -- made people mad. Dix proposed to claw back about $270 million in corporate tax cuts, which would still leave them paying about $700 million less in direct taxes than a decade ago.


Politically, it sets him apart from the main candidates from both parties, though it won't win business friends and supporters.

Meanwhile, Falcon has presented himself as the candidate of choice for B.C. business. Falcon has racked up, and promoted, endorsements from a flock of business people. They bought a full-page ad in the Vancouver Sun and his campaign team has sent out press releases celebrating his corporate support. It's impressive, at least to some Liberal party supporters.

But Falcon was already seen as business-friendly and likely had the support of those supporters. And he risks being seen as short on support from other groups. What he needs, in terms of winning the leadership, are similar indications from other sectors.

He was the health minister, for example. Where are the patient groups or doctors or seniors' organization offering the same kind of ringing endorsement he's getting from the business sector? Or the women's shelter or teen group in his riding praising his insight and efforts?


Both Dix and Falcon are staking clear positions that reflect the interests their respective party's core supporters, which might help win support in the leadership contest.


That success might not translate as well into an actual election campaign, where the emphasis is on winning over moderate or uncommitted voters.


But Dix has, at least, started a needed debate on tax policy and who should pay for the services government provides.
 The tax shift under the Liberals has seen business pay much less and individuals and families pay much more, without a great deal of public discussion of the impacts on the economy and British Columbians.

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chris gadsden

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2011, 10:12:45 AM »

Vander Zalm: BC Government’s so-called “Independent Panel on HST” report delayed to avoid becoming federal election issue, so Fight HST releasing its own study.

DELTA – (Tuesday, April 5, 2011) – Former BC premier and Fight HST Leader Bill Vander Zalm says his grassroots volunteer group has completed a comprehensive study on the problems with the Harmonized Sales Tax in BC, elsewhere in Canada and worldwide and is releasing its report today.

Vander Zalm says the BC government’s so-called “Independent Panel” was originally scheduled to publish its findings this week, but declined to do so to avoid the HST becoming a significant issue during the federal election.

“Why would a supposedly independent group’s report on the HST not be released as planned - unless the BC government was scared it would become a major issue during this federal election,” Vander Zalm said. “BC voters have consistently been left in the dark about the HST by the BC Liberal government since before the 2009 provincial election when they denied plans to impose it.  Now they’re doing it again.”

Vander Zalm says BC voters are preparing for the upcoming June 24 mail-in ballot referendum on extinguishing the HST and need solid information to counter the “disinformation” promoted by the government and their supporters in the big business lobby.

He says Fight HST’s study, titled: “HST or PST? The truth about the HST and why returning to the PST is better for BC” is a damning indictment of the harmful effects of the HST on the economy and jobs, and is based on information that is publicly available – but has been completely ignored by the BC government throughout the entire HST debate.

“With the HST, also called a Value Added Tax (VAT), there is a long history going all the way back to 1954 in France and up to the present day in Europe, Canada and around the world. It is easy to trace its damaging effects everywhere it has been implemented. Economies in Europe are teetering on the brink of collapse from excessive taxation and the VAT, which is driving large parts of their economies underground to avoid this tax,” said Vander Zalm.

“In Canada the provinces with HST have the highest unemployment, while those without an HST have the lowest – more than half as much in some cases. In BC, unemployment has risen almost a full percentage point since the introduction of the HST, resulting in tens of thousands of job losses. It’s a disaster.”

Vander Zalm says the report shows how the HST in Europe and the Maritimes is responsible for inflation, economic stagnation and an increase in the overall tax burden, including income taxes.

“It is a bad tax system. And any of the touted benefits can easily be achieved without harmonizing our sales taxes with Ottawa. Our report is well researched, and unlike the spurious claims by the pro HST side, it includes references to all sources to support the information contained in it.”

Some of the report’s findings include:

    * VAT’s in Europe began at about 6% and now average 20%, with some countries as high as 25%.
    * Unemployment in Canadian provinces with the HST range between 8.2% in Ontario and BC to 12.4% in Newfoundland.
    * Unemployment in non HST provinces like Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are in the 5% range – over half the rate of some HST provinces.
    * The HST will cost BC taxpayers an average of $400-$500 each year for every man, woman and child for a total increased tax burden of $10 billion in just the first 5 years of implementation.
    * The HST (VAT) is responsible for shrinking the tax base, increasing government debt, and increasing unemployment.
    * The HST is not necessary to exempt businesses from sales taxes or to streamline compliance.
    * The HST is “revenue neutral” to government with all extra revenues going to tax refunds for business and none to social programs like health care or education.
    * Returning to the PST or a revised form of PST will save BC taxpayers billions of dollars.
    * The HST hands control of BC sales taxes to Ottawa.

Vander Zalm says his group will publish its report on its web site, and will begin a viral marketing campaign using email, Twitter, Facebook and other new media to distribute the report throughout the province so British Columbians can read for themselves how bad the tax is.

He says he and Fight HST spokespersons Chris Delaney and Bill Tieleman will make themselves available to explain the report and to field questions from the media in the coming weeks.

Please forward this email report to everyone you know so all British Columbians can know the truth about the HST

ONLINE ARTICLE INCLUDING PDF REPORT

alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2011, 11:33:55 AM »

http://fighthst.com/media/TheTruthAbouttheHST.pdf

I'm suspecting there is more than a little bias built into Mr Vanderzalm's report. It certainly is not presenting both sides of the argument. It's understandable though, given that he would look pretty silly if he suddenly came out in favor of the HST........  ::)

I suggest waiting for the government report. Remember Campbell is no longer there. The new Premier (like her or not) has publicly stated that the HST decision is up to the people. She has moved the HST vote date up by several months, and is going to make it real easy for everyone to vote by not requiring them to go to a polling station. Given that keeping the HST or removing it has no reflection on her decision (she wasn't involved in the decision to implement the HST) I would tend to believe the government's report as being the most objective and unbiased on the HST.

Vanderzalm on the other hand apparently still has an axe to grind and definitely has an ego which would not allow him to say "I'm wrong". Besides, given that his recall campaigns are showing up as a complete failure, I think he is straining to rescue any credibility he may have had..... 

Presenting a biased report that he suggests is unbiased is not helping his credibility.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2011, 01:40:00 PM »

Does it make things easier for my business? Yes . Does it make sense to the working stiff? No. Say bye bye Liberals, as if this doesn't get you fired, surely Mr. Cummins will split your base. FLOOOSHH!
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skaha

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2011, 08:10:13 PM »

--not really directly related but fun facts...Next year BC government will collect more revenue from tuition fees than corporate taxes. At least we have an idea where the tuition fees go.
--In Manitoba at tax time... students can deduct residence fees and cost of computer.. both essentials and especially important for rural students who have to pay for accommodation on top tuition.
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penn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2011, 06:06:02 PM »

--not really directly related but fun facts...Next year BC government will collect more revenue from tuition fees than corporate taxes.
Could you provide some hard evidence that proves this statement ? eg . some actual numbers from a reputable source .
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skaha

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2011, 08:36:07 AM »

Could you provide some hard evidence that proves this statement ? eg . some actual numbers from a reputable source .
--I called these fun facts  on  student tuition vs corporate taxes collected as I did not personally investigate nor substantiate them.

--The Fast Fact BC students will pay for corporate tax breaks.. came from the March edition of a news letter available to the public and produced by NUPGE.. that is National Union of Public Government Employees.. I'm sure the Frazer Institute which for some is much more credible can research and comment on the accuracy.

--The second statement you can look up the Manitoba Tax act... as U of Manitoba provided documentation for tax deduction of residence fees and computer.. I thought this is a great help.. however when we submitted them to BC..the expenses for  tax was denied as it is only applicable for deduction in Manitoba... As you will be aware a student attending university outside of BC is considered to be a permanent resident of BC unless they officially change their residence.. ie move permanently to the other province.

--I believe that Manitoba deduction for residence fees would be a great help if considered in BC for rural students who have the added expense of not being able to live at home when attending University.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2011, 09:19:51 AM »

--I called these fun facts  on  student tuition vs corporate taxes collected as I did not personally investigate nor substantiate them.

--The Fast Fact BC students will pay for corporate tax breaks.. came from the March edition of a news letter available to the public and produced by NUPGE.. that is National Union of Public Government Employees.. I'm sure the Frazer Institute which for some is much more credible can research and comment on the accuracy.

--The second statement you can look up the Manitoba Tax act... as U of Manitoba provided documentation for tax deduction of residence fees and computer.. I thought this is a great help.. however when we submitted them to BC..the expenses for  tax was denied as it is only applicable for deduction in Manitoba... As you will be aware a student attending university outside of BC is considered to be a permanent resident of BC unless they officially change their residence.. ie move permanently to the other province.

--I believe that Manitoba deduction for residence fees would be a great help if considered in BC for rural students who have the added expense of not being able to live at home when attending University.

Now that is funny!  .....isn't a source either credible or not credible....   period?    

A fact is a fact no matter who says it!

Suggesting that students are paying for corporate tax breaks is not a fact. Pure logic suggests that a corporate tax break is a discount or a credit, not a payment of cash. Therefore it would be impossible for students to be paying for corporate tax breaks!  :D
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 09:21:23 AM by alwaysfishn »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2011, 10:13:42 AM »

Continuation of my previous post......

skaha: I believe this is the post you were quoting from..... http://alltogethernow.nupge.ca/fast-facts

The following exert is interesting....  "Tax Havens: In 2009, Statistics Canada reported that $78.4 billion of Canadian assets were invested in the tax havens of Barbados, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, exceeding the GDP of these tiny jurisdictions many times over.

Five big banks hide big money: Between 1993 and 2003, the five big banks used their offshore accounts to avoid paying $16 Billion in Canadian taxes.  - University of Quebec study"


This alone is an argument for why corporate tax breaks are necessary. A corporation exists not for the benefit of all citizens, it exists for the benefit of it's investors. Without investors, the corporation does not exist. If the corporation doesn't exist there are no jobs for the citizens. In order for an investor to invest in a corporation, the investor needs to believe that the corporation will make money so that as a result the investor will benefit from the growth of their investment.

As a result the corporation will do whatever is necessary including moving part of it's business outside of the country in order to give it's investors higher returns (profits) on their investment. If a corporation doesn't do this the investors will leave causing the corporations shares to fall in value and potentially go out of business.

This is why it is important for governments to provide corporate tax breaks. Lower corporate taxes are a huge incentive for corporations to keep their business in this country, and provides incentives for other corporations world wide to come and establish businesses in this country. This creates jobs in Canada and the taxes from those jobs will provide health care and education subsidies that everyone in Canada wants. Increase corporate taxes and you will lose jobs.

If you look at the US you will see that they are having a huge unemployment problem in that their corporate taxes are some of the highest in the world, and their corporations are moving parts of their business outside of the US to countries that have lower corporate tax rates. Apparently US corporations have over 4 trillion invested outside of the country.

If you want to learn more about the dangers of high corporate taxes, listen to this CBS 60 minute (the show) documentary....http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7360932n&tag=contentBody;housing
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skaha

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2011, 05:32:34 PM »

Suggesting that students are paying for corporate tax breaks is not a fact. Pure logic suggests that a corporate tax break is a discount or a credit, not a payment of cash. Therefore it would be impossible for students to be paying for corporate tax breaks! 

-- It is not directly related just a comparison  to put into prospective that students pay about the same for tuition in BC  as the Corporation's pay  in tax.  It is difficult for me to visualize what a Billion dollars means in terms of value. HST was much applauded by the forest industry as a direct reduction in their total tax burden.
--I'm not quite left wing enough to want all corporations taxed to death or nationalized (maybe some).. I liked the idea of the Canadian government owning Petro Can and its refineries.. It gave us something to squawk about... and also gave some perspective into the industry.
--I'm also very impressed that big business can be so united in their cause and slogan of lower taxes and less government. In public they insist on an even playing field yet behind closed doors each seeks a break for themselves only and a monopoly rather than competition. My perspective is that if they were united in purpose there would only be a need to register ONE lobbyist to speak on behalf for all corporations. I am quite sure there is more than one registered lobbyist and even a few as we have learned recently that are not registered. 

« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 05:49:05 PM by skaha »
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