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[alwaysfishn]

Has anyone used some math to project the impact that the sports fishermen have on the sockeye?

Here's some numbers that I'd like to throw out there...   Feel free to correct em..... 

Currently the sockeye C&R study is experiencing a less than 2% mortality rate. That's 2 fish out of 100 die as a result of an encounter with a C&R fisherman.

But the C&R fishermen don't encounter every fish that is going up the river. Let's say they encounter 2% of the total number of sockeye entering the Fraser. (In 2008 I believe 1.5 million sockeye entered the Fraser. DFO projections were 16,000 caught in the brief recreational opening and a projected 17,000 were C&R'd, a total of 33,000 or just over 2%. Personally I believe DFO projections are very high... ) http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/recreational/creelsurveyPDFs/2008Creel/2008LFraserCreelReport.pdf

So let's assume that C&R fishermen can take responsibility for the death of .04% of the sockeye entering the Fraser river (2% x 2%).

That means that if 1,000,000 sockeye enter the Fraser system in 2009 at a .04% mortality rate that's 400 fish that don't make it to the spawning beds....   

Why is there such a fuss about the sport fishermen's impact on the sockeye 

[Steelhawk]

Yes, a drfit net set by 2 guys can catch many times more than that in a day/night, legal or illegal. All the fuss about bbing killing the fish stock. Just think they are stopping thousands of Fraser bbers and their rights to enjoy fishing for the entire Fraser season for something 2 drift net guys can catch or exceed in one day. We must be so insignificant in the minds of those who want to shut us down. Pathetic.

[chris gadsden]

Chilliwack Progress
Stop bottom bouncing to save sockeye: DFO
 
Sockeye salmon.
DFO PHOTO


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Text   By Jennifer Feinberg - Chilliwack Progress


Published: August 14, 2009 8:00 AM
Updated: August 14, 2009 9:41 AM

0 Comments Anglers are being asked to avoid using the fishing method known as bottom bouncing on the Fraser River — or else.

A fishery notice issued from Fisheries and Oceans Canada on Tuesday is aimed at protecting sockeye runs given the dismal numbers this season and higher-than-average water temperatures.

"If sockeye encounters are not reduced to ensure the adequate passage of sockeye, then further actions such as spot closures or a 'no fishing for salmon' restriction may be implemented," reads the notice. "The first principle of selective harvesting is to avoid catching non-targeted stocks. This means that anglers should use methods that do not catch sockeye."

The bottom bouncing technique on the Fraser generally involves casting with a two- or three-ounce weight called a 'bouncing betty' and the use of a longer leader.

Sport fishermen are being asked to employ more "selective" methods, which are specifically defined by Fisheries as: bar fishing, trolling spoons at creek mouths, float fishing, pulling plugs or fly fishing.

Vic Carrao of the Fraser Valley Angling Guides Association said the consequence of the DFO request to avoid bottom bouncing on the Fraser to avoid sockeye could be "devastating" for anglers and guides.

"It's ridiculous. In the past the recreational has always taken the high road on issues such as conservation," he said. "What we've suggested is coming up with a definition for sockeye fishing, which could be 'bottom bouncing with a leader in excess of one metre.

"So when conservation concerns come up, they would simply say, no sockeye fishing. It takes the politics out of it and makes it clear."

He argued that bottom bouncing is a legitimate fishing method used widely across North America.

"If leader length is the issue, let's define it as such. But this is not about conservation one bit. They're trying to say we need every sockeye to get through, but how does that explain the lack of enforcement on illegal netting and drifting that we still see going on from Mission to Hell's Gate?

"So how can they realistically come to the recreational community now and ask us to fish selectively and not bottom bounce?"

The sport fishers are always the first ones taken off the river and the first to be asked to modify the way they fish, Carrao stated.

"And we understand that. But we are also a large contributor to the local economy. Our impact is huge but we're the last to get opportunities."

He thinks that DFO's estimate of sockeye mortality at 10 per cent is way too high, even using the most generous numbers in the calculations.

"We truly believe our impact on the resource is negligible, but we still want to closely work with DFO, and have those discussions to make the right management decisions for the future."


jfeinberg@theprogress.com

[emac]

We definitely need to come up with a solution by working with the DFO to better define "bottom bouncing".  Although it has been a challenge to do so and we're not there yet persistence will eventually pay off.  Maybe it takes a catastrophe like this to finally get it done because we're going to find ourselves in the same position next year, and the year after, and after, if things don't change.

Since we're not there yet I would suggest that the FVAGA lead by example and comply with the request. I would look at them in a more positive light (and maybe give them my business) if they would step up and say they will stop bb'ing because they are committed to the long term health of the salmon industry.   It doesn't mean they can't bring up things such as illegal netting, better definition of bb'ing, etc.  However, until they take some ownership (albeit they are a fraction of a percent of the problem) they're still a part of the problem.
 

Also, why can't guides take out clients and bar fish?  They don't have a problem getting people to go sturgeon fishing and the technique is very similar.  Throw out lines and get the fish to bite the hook.  I'm asking this question because I don't know the answer.  Are the clients so committed to bb'ing that they won't hire a guide if the can't do it?

[alwaysfishn]

We definitely need to come up with a solution by working with the DFO to better define "bottom bouncing".  Although it has been a challenge to do so and we're not there yet persistence will eventually pay off.  Maybe it takes a catastrophe like this to finally get it done because we're going to find ourselves in the same position next year, and the year after, and after, if things don't change.

Since we're not there yet I would suggest that the FVAGA lead by example and comply with the request. I would look at them in a more positive light (and maybe give them my business) if they would step up and say they will stop bb'ing because they are committed to the long term health of the salmon industry.   It doesn't mean they can't bring up things such as illegal netting, better definition of bb'ing, etc.  However, until they take some ownership (albeit they are a fraction of a percent of the problem) they're still a part of the problem.
 

Also, why can't guides take out clients and bar fish?  They don't have a problem getting people to go sturgeon fishing and the technique is very similar.  Throw out lines and get the fish to bite the hook.  I'm asking this question because I don't know the answer.  Are the clients so committed to bb'ing that they won't hire a guide if the can't do it?

Put yourself in the guides shoes for half a minute.

You have clients that have hired you, so they could have an opportunity to catch a fish. You take them out on a local bar and throw out the bar rigs and sit down with your clients to watch your rods.....  Over the course of the afternoon people all around you are catching fish by bottom bouncing, but you and your clients are not....

What would you say to your clients? Remember you need them to tell their friends so that they will call you up and pay you to guide them. This is how you earn your living.... you have little kids to feed....   

BB'ing has an effect on the mortality of the fish, approximately .04% of them are estimated to die as a result of C&R. Why is so much thought and discussion going into such a small part of the problem. It's seems like the equivalent of taking a sieve and putting most of your effort into plugging one of the holes. Even if you plug it you've still got 99.96% of the holes that are still leaking....   

[emac]

I completely agree that BB'ing shouldn't be the focal point of these discussions.  However, since it is if the Association came out and said they're going to comply with the request then the discussion is over.  We can then move to tackling the real problem.  It's such an easy request I can't believe people are fighting it to the death.  Once it stops the govt will need to point the finger somewhere else.  Then, maybe we'll get somewhere.

I understand guides need to make their clients happy and put food on table for their kids.  I'm trying to look long term from a guides perspective, not short term.  The way its looking the government will shut down salmon fishing.  The Association has the power to drive change.  It's very difficult and in the short run it will have a negative impact on their business.  However, if the Association ceased BB'ing today and set an example others will follow.  Most people learned from guides and look to them for their expertise on how to catch fish. 

[Steelhawk]

DFO in such a bad year for sockeye has to look and act like they are doing something for fish conservation. They are looking for a scape goat so the pulbic think that DFO is doing something about the problem. But bb is not the problem and is proven by the study that our impact is minimal.

From the current observation, I don't see more than 100 sockeye hooks per popular bb bars. Say there are 10 such bars, the total daily c/r is 1000 fish. If we use 2% mortality rate as in the study, that means 20 fish. Does that number justify shutting down so many fishermen's right to fish? The test nets take that many fish per day just in Albion. What about all along the coasts. Can't we just shut down one test nets so they will keep people fishing the way they enjoy. Don't give me all that crap about thinking for the last sockeyes. I only concern about the total stock survival. If we are worrying about 20 sockeyes (if that) per day, we shouldn't allow any fishing on the river, period, and in all sections of the river. Conservation is the top mandate in priority. If we are talking about our 20 fish will threaten the stock, then the other group which will take tens of thousands should not fish, period. Don't the rights of individuals to exercise their freedom of choice of past times count in this country if their actions are not going to harm the stock in a bad way? We are tax contributing citizens of this nation. Don't we deserve any merits? 

Like I always say, we are always singled out for all the problems or sins of other user groups, and we bear the blunt of DFO actions because we are the easiest group to dicate to. Whether the problems are FN over-harvesting, fish farm, ocean survival, environment degradation, even predation by seals (how about all those pike minnows or sqwauh fish?), etc etc. It doesn't matter, we will be the group targeted for action because we are not united, we don't fight back, and we don't vote politicians out of office like the NRA in America. We end up seeing less and less fishing opportunities as a group. Pathetic. 

[Gaffer]

FYI, HLABT's work field is on Fraser River sockeye so he has extensive knowledge on the species. Whether you agree or disagree with his opinion, it is unnecessary to insult it. A better approach would be to express why you disagree with him.

Rodney: after reading what all have to say re Mr Crey and his opinion about FN's right to food fish and how some FN people who are poor will not receive their protein  from fish sources this year --perhaps he could explain why Pinks,coho,and chum are not considered in his statements only highly saleable Sockeye are desireable as "Food Fish " Just an open question -- No sarcasm intended-- Tight lines

This will never happen as it is similar trying to get people to agree what religion is correct and what what political party is the best. This is just life as people will always have different views on an array of subjects.

Chris: I think some of us have already decided which political process & party are best-- I didn't get invited to see Mr. Harper-- so far they've not helped the sportfisher one Iota - However Mr. Crey seems to forget that fighting over the last fish in the River only means his people will be forced to eat NO fish protein that much sooner. would'nt it be more prudent to sit down & talk about the problem now -while we collectively still can??? --Tight lines

Put yourself in the guides shoes for half a minute.

You have clients that have hired you, so they could have an opportunity to catch a fish. You take them out on a local bar and throw out the bar rigs and sit down with your clients to watch your rods.....  Over the course of the afternoon people all around you are catching fish by bottom bouncing, but you and your clients are not....

What would you say to your clients? Remember you need them to tell their friends so that they will call you up and pay you to guide them. This is how you earn your living.... you have little kids to feed....   

BB'ing has an effect on the mortality of the fish, approximately .04% of them are estimated to die as a result of C&R. Why is so much thought and discussion going into such a small part of the problem. It's seems like the equivalent of taking a sieve and putting most of your effort into plugging one of the holes. Even if you plug it you've still got 99.96% of the holes that are still leaking....   

Heyzeus Buddy!!!-- we've been fighting for years to keep Gov'ts out of our tackle boxes--- next it'll be no spinners , plastic artificials, roe, Lead-- And don't get me started on that P.E.T.A bunch ! Let common sense rule and Teach, Teach ,Teach those that there are better ways --it's that or throw away the rods & grab the Golf Clubs --- Tight Lines

Hi Boys,
Great suggestions, however I think the point is really that DFO does not want to face a challenge regarding native fisheries in court. Even with the illegal drift netting, the challenge FN could/would make is that they are still allowed to fish as long as sporties are on the river (depends how you read the judgments). If a judge sides with them, a case law precedent would be established and DFO could lose any/all legal leverage in setting regulations for FN, and that's only within Canadian law. As far as international law goes, remember that most FN bands haven't signed any treaties yet and they could possibly win in court (in the type of cases mentioned above) what they would otherwise need to bargain for in treaty negotiations (as far as fish quotas/access). In fact depending how you look at it, DFO really has no say over FN as they are still in nation to nation negotiations and DFO is part the Canadian national government's infrastructure and as sovereign nations, FN do not (yet, at least) recognise Canadian Law and can claim (as I'm sure they're doing) complete rights over the entire river and all of it's fish as a starting point in treaty negotiations. If/when FN settle treaties, DFO will start enforcing the law (or maybe after the Olympics  )  I don't like any of this, but it's the only explanation I can think of that makes any sense to me in this whole fisheries mess.   

There it is in a NUTshell folks-- sounds crazy but it's true--- anybody seen a Sparrow or a Judge Bolt lately?

[Rodney]

Not sure how that is relevant to my post that you quoted. The question you asked should be directed at Crey, because it's not going to get answered if it is only asked on this discussion forum like many other questions.

Pink and chum salmon are usually scheduled for economy opportunity openings for Lower Fraser First Nations between September and November.

[Gaffer]

Not sure how that is relevant to my post that you quoted. The question you asked should be directed at Crey, because it's not going to get answered if it is only asked on this discussion forum like many other questions.

Pink and chum salmon are usually scheduled for economy opportunity openings for Lower Fraser First Nations between September and November.

Rod: You'd be surprised who reads this column and why. FYI this question has been directed to Mr. Crey in other venues and he has not answered-- it is included here for input and data only--- Cheers-- Tight lines

[Rodney]

Still doesn't answer why you directed it to me by quoting my post that has nothing to do with what yo are asking.

And no,I wouldn't be surprised by who maybe reading this discussion. With 5000 visitors per day and available to anyone who has access to the internet, it could be anyone. Maybe Mr Harper is sitting at home reading it right now too.

[Gaffer]

Still doesn't answer why you directed it to me by quoting my post that has nothing to do with what yo are asking.

And no,I wouldn't be surprised by who maybe reading this discussion. With 5000 visitors per day and available to anyone who has access to the internet, it could be anyone. Maybe Mr Harper is sitting at home reading it right now too.

Rod: My mistake sometimes we all go off on tangents-- the target was incorrect the point wasn't --in my opinion however I don't think Mr. Harper or any of his crew reads anything from BC---- Cheers 

[Rodney]

I don't think Mr. Harper or any of his crew reads anything from BC---- Cheers 

Ha!

No problem. I wasn't offended or anything, was just curious. Cheers.

[RA40]

I completely agree that BB'ing shouldn't be the focal point of these discussions.  However, since it is if the Association came out and said they're going to comply with the request then the discussion is over.  We can then move to tackling the real problem.  It's such an easy request I can't believe people are fighting it to the death.  Once it stops the govt will need to point the finger somewhere else.  Then, maybe we'll get somewhere.

I understand guides need to make their clients happy and put food on table for their kids.  I'm trying to look long term from a guides perspective, not short term.  The way its looking the government will shut down salmon fishing.  The Association has the power to drive change.  It's very difficult and in the short run it will have a negative impact on their business.  However, if the Association ceased BB'ing today and set an example others will follow.  Most people learned from guides and look to them for their expertise on how to catch fish. 

Emac , we have come out and said it infact we are the first ones and even last year we helped distribute flyers and posted it on all of our websites.

You guys must remember that the FVAGA has 70 members, there are over 150 licensed guides in the valley. We do not control them, they do as they wish. We had an emergancy meeting when the request came out and our members voted 95% in favor of supporting DFO. The definition was proposed 2 years ago, the suggestion cam from a meeting with our members, moved forward to SFAC then to SFAB, DFO dropped it.

I would like to write more right now but I just can't, i don't have the time.

Keep this in mind, the same day they closed the river to sport fishing above the Aggasiz bridge, there was a full on drift net fishery below Port Mann Bridge, we counted 27 nets, above the bridge was loaded with boats drifting. I would guess over 50boats in total. Most are using 8 inch mesh for chinook but guess what, if you run the net strait you get Chinook, if you "S" cureve the net, you get everything. You don't think they know that.
We saw hundreds of sockeye being taken including sturgeon. Now you honestly tell me we as recreational anglers are the problem.

For tyhose of you that understand the real issue, forget bb, if you want to ever fish the Fraser again, its time to stand up and be counted. Write your MP today, I really mean today because we are done fishing the Fraser if we don't.

Hope to see you on the water,.

[52buick]

 ::)Yup, blame the bb'ers, no wait, blame the sporties in general for the devastating drop in the sockeye numbers. They, of course, are the main culprits here. The sporties must have been flossing 24/7 out there in the salt chuck to kill off this many fish    Mr. Ernie Crey, you win...will you put in a good word for us sporties with DFO and allow us a day or two of fishing? Pretty please? If we don't get time on the water, I guess we'll just have to order some from the pick up truck guy.