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[leadbelly]

Ill let my post above be my response to the new one by Rick, it seems appropriate anyway

[2:40]

Leadbelly's right.

The root of the problem is accepted and legal snagging. It's fine for the few who leave it to sockeye and the odd spring in May...but aside from doing their part and making a stand against this problem, they are not the real big problem even though they and myself started the problem and those who still do it help keep it going a little bit and make it very difficult and even questionable to criticize those who chose to do it for the same reasons just on another system.

But even if all who happily snag the Fraser River but are scared at what they see happening on the Vedder stopped snagging tomorrow (more accurately, next May...or August), would the problem be fixed? Nope. (no reason to keep doing it though!) What has been produced now is a new breed of angler who do not fish for the reasons most of us fish nor do they care about issues that have come of it. There is no amount of education out there that will work beyond on maybe a bare few. While hard to watch, I dont hold it against these guys as they truely dont know or understand. I feel Im more to blame then they are for what's happened as I helped get the sockeye fishery off the ground because I DID IT and did not make an individual effort to do my part for sport angling at the time.

We can talk about closing sections of the river, limiting catches, regulating species. While all could have some use, why re-invent the wheel when we can go back to where angling was 12 years ago before people decided it was ok to bend the rules and introduce snagging? I submit we start at the logical point and focus on removing ALL snagging from sport angling. I know it will be a task, but we have to start some place. Remember, fishing was A-OK before the sockeye got going. We can make it ok again.

I like to think that a few sockeye and springs are not worth what happens on the Vedder and other systems, so hope we get some support here.

I'm also curious why a very similar gong show on the Fraser that ISNT confined to sockeye openings anymore (in other words, May 1 to closing) is any better than what goes on under the KWB. Could it be because the ones who have a voice of concern only speak up when it really effects them when they try to get near the river to get a coho to bite?

Dont mean to offend or anything, just exploring all aspects of this serious topic.

I look forward with keen interest and support as this effort moves forward. 

[Ribwart]

It's ironic, because I had an experience the other day that is pertinent here and should share it... I was fishing the other day and next to me was a young boy fishing with his father....this young boys name was Travis. He had some problems because he had snagged bottom and couldn't get "undone"...he obviously didn't really know how to undo a snag because he was jerking on the fishing rod and causing a stir in the pool where he had caught bottom...his dad had moved down stream and Travis was looking to him, rather unsuccessfully, to get his attention to come and fix the problem.  I noticed this and was annoyed at his water whipping attempts to remove his hook from a rock so I turned to young Travis and told him that if he moved upstream of where he snagged up, and then applied constant pressure with a little re-enforced pull on the rod he might get it free... he tried this and sure enough he got his rig free, without the weight of course....and he thanked me for my help. I then told him I would put some new lead on for him, so he could keep fishing...of course I noticed his leader was too long...and I offered to set it up the way it should be done, and he said "allright...", and so I cut down his leader, and put some new weight on...and then told him that if he wanted to avoid snagging bottom he needed to fish the right way... I asked him if he wanted me to show him and he said sure...so I told him about short floating and how it doesn't get you snagged ever, and how it doesn't scare the fish away if you miss a hook set, and then I told him..."you know that spot you kept casting to and you weren't catching anything??? if you cast just up from there behind that rock with the depth much shallower you won't snag bottom anymore, and your chances are better at getting into a fish" ...., "try it!" I said...well sure enough young Travis caught a white spring within a few casts on the short float and was very excited...! His father ran over giving instructions on how to play it and well, you can picture the scene I'm sure. Travis lost that fish, but that's not really the point of telling you about this little event that happened to me on monday morning, the point is...I spoke with his father after Travis lost the fish and told him it was good to see someone starting out so young and getting a day in with dad...well Travis' dad told me that he "took Travis sockeye fishing on the Fraser this year and that he had been hooked ever since....". This is how novices to the sport learn how to do things, and unless they unlearn them, these "methods" will perpetuate themselves and only become more prominent. I have never really offered much advice before on the river at least not to the extent that I had on monday, and with Travis being so young, he was more receptive to any influence I might have...and it felt good to see the light go on when he unhooked that snag...and it felt even better when I heard him telling his dad when they were leaving how "that nice man" had told him about "short floating" and "how quick it worked!"...

I know it sounds real cheesy, but no @*&$, this really happened just this holiday monday, and it really opened my eyes to how easy it is for people to miss something without even knowing it...including myself, obviously.
So, leadbelly and whoever else is listening, it's all fine and good to say you've quit sockeye fishing, and yes that's a start...but when all you can do is point out things like you said in your first post on this page, it really has nothing to do with fixing the problem, and everything to do with trying, but not succeeding, at saying something smart...I know your intentions are good, and you're frustrated just like the rest of us,  but all of us picking fights and pointing blame here undermine what we really want to achieve don't you think?

thx,
rib

[blaydRnr]

this problem goes way beyond your everyday fishers.  i was at a local tackle shop a couple of weeks ago, where the salesman was recommending braided line to a novice fisherman wanting to try out the vedder. his reasoning was so that if he was to get snagged, he would have a better chance of recoving his hardware. needless to say, the guy filled his spool with 60 lb test tuff line and the salesman made his 40+ dollars.

the ignorant newbies aren't the morons, as much as the greedy bastards who knows better than to sell them the wares.

[fishherron]

You want to stop the slaughter? Close the hatchery!!!

[2:40]

Nice work Ribwart.   A true heartwarming story. I encourage all anglers to do this when the chance arises. Thanks for sharing.

Not to rain on your parade though, but there is no way to educate all out there or to use the above as the solution and expect it to work. Sure, there will be some who will learn to fish so the fish bite but they will be few and far between. I hope I dont sound negative. Im trying to be realistic. Between being no way to get to all the hoards of new sweepers out there, and the many, many who really are not interested in a biting method, it's going to be tough. Since most are not there for a bite so why will they change from something that's getting themselves into fish all the time to something that doesnt produce to the level they've grown to expect?

It will be like me trying to explain to guys why I feel they shouldnt snag sockeye and springs on the Fraser. I know from personal experience that the rate of anglers who have changed or even considered my thoughts on the topic as a thin number.

Keeping in mind that most who we are concerned about on other systems are using the same mentality as the before mentioned Fraser Flossers, how can we expect education and awareness to be anymore successful here than there?

Id sure like it to work though. Dont get me wrong. I just dont think it's possible.  

[Fish Assassin]

Good job Ribwart. What you did in that few minutes of educating young Travis did more than all the name calling that goes on this and other forums.

[Ribwart]

I agree the problem is very complex and daunting...but I'd like to break things down a bit here...

If there are two schools of fishing...
one that shows people to fish one way ...ie: flossing sockeye and only really shows results and teaches nothing else, but that gets taught more and more from one season to the next, year after year...without any consideration or even mention of ethics...

and the other school of fishing ie: what we are advocating here...that shows them the benefit to not spooking fish by bumping them, or killing them within hours or days by belly hunting them, and not snagging bottom-ever...and that it provides much, much more exciting strikes and so much more, but is a school of fishing that doesn't really get taught much at all in comparison despite the fact that it also has benefits and ethics...

Then which school will succeed?

Obviously the first school of thought, by virtue of sheer numbers will cause the sport to evolve to flossing at a geometric rate! It's a pure numbers game, it doesn't matter if we're right...so yeah we need to educate...but no amount of education will over come the sheer numbers of newbies that will be educated in the other school for every one newbie we educate in ours....

So, in order for us to get anywhere, first we need to remove the first school's teaching methods...or... change what it is teaching...and over time, without its negative influence, the second school of fishing's teachings will get around to enough people that the proliferation of flossing/long lining/snagging techniques is on the decline, rather than on the rise....it's a slow, painfull, but, I think, effective long term approach to the problem that might not fix this thing before we are gone, but will for generations after us...

I know you've already made that point to some extent, and obviously I agree, but I know in my bones it is the only way to get started, otherwise all our efforts will be like trying to run in water.

[troutbreath]

Maybe people would be more unlikely to fish here if we had Ontario's regulations in place. I just about pooped a carp when deciphering through that manuscript.

People are supposed to be responsible enough to know that regs apply in any given situation. If guides who take there clients out for a snag fest or dubious tackle shop salespeople act like dope peddlers, for bad ethics,and not explain proper fishing by regs and good ethics the whole thing starts to rot from the bottom to the top.

If there is no enforcement against the meat, or brag fishers, that have bad ethics and break regs, it rots on the bank of the river.

We learn by what we see and hear, and if you get busted down the road for getting bad info, then you stop listening to bad info. Or pay stiffer penalties

No reason not to have specific regs in place to deal with snagging fish. Just make sure they're enforced or they are worthless. People who fish like they do at KW are doing the above , either ignorant or smug about their ability to snag some meat to show off, without ever getting busted. And should you say something to them remember they don't have much mentality to start with.

Bust them Dano. We used to pay people to do that and not pay lip service to these problems.

[TrophyHunter]

This entire problem of people snagging on the Vedder has nothing to do with the Fraser Floss fishery.. I know many many fishermen who take part in the Sockeye fishery who would never think of long lining or snagging on any other system.. to say the two are linked is a cop out !!!! the idiots that snag on the Vedder have been there since I started fishing that system when I was a young teenager, before flossing was even thought of, the Vedder river is full of salmon and it is close to the city which means a large population... idiots are idiots there just happen to be a lot more of them now, when I first started fishing the vedder I learned how to short float from the local tackle shop.. when I got to the river I saw all sorts of people ripping their lines through the water and these people were atching way more fish than me!! I could see that they were snagging the fish and that is why they were so successful, did this make me start snagging   NO It didn't ... why??? because I am not a fricking moron !!!!!! So 2:40 Leadbelly and all the other witch hunters on this site need to stop attacking the wrong people !!! yes there is a problem on the Vedder and other smaller systems !!  yes it needs to be stopped !! but you are looking in the wrong places and I think everyone is getting a little tired of hearing the same crap over and over from the same few people !! if you want to do something productive then get out on the river with the DFO and get the snaggers off of the river... coming on here and comparing the Fraser to the Vedder is not going to do anything except irritate me and pretty much everyone else on this site...

THE PROBLEM IS THE VEDDER IS A PRODUCTIVE RIVER AND IT IS CLOSE TO A LARGE POPULATION !!!!!!!!!!!
UNLESS THE RIVER IS ENFORCED 24/7 NOTHING IS GONNA CHANGE !!!!

[Ribwart]

Troutbreath....Agreed. bust em. so a concerted increase in enforcement for several seasons should relearn a few people... and I know it's unrealistic of me to think the sockeye fishery will be shut down, but that doesn't make my point above wrong...just means the solution to the problem isn't that obvious...if we can't shut down that fishery for obvious reasons, how can we change the habits it teaches?
Thick Rick, you are right...but recognize this too of course there are people that floss on the fraser and don't floss on the vedder...nobody is disputing that at all, at least I'm not...but you can't say that everyone who flosses on the fraser isn't doing the same on the vedder...can you? No. so my point is there are a bunch of little aspects of this problem that are all contributing to the whole...and we need to tackle all the issues in order to solve the problem rather than just one. Meaning, with hypothetical numbers here....if 100 people a year are learning that flossing/bottom bouncing is the only way to fish from the sockeye fishery and they aren't taught any differently...AND 100 people a year are learning to sweep from flossers on the vedder that had nothing to do with the fraser fishery but still sweep none the less, then why try to solve the later aspect and not the prior? They both contribute to the whole problem, and we can't solve the whole problem without tackling all the angles of it, don't you think? Nobody here is disagreeing with you that enforcement isn't a major issue...but if fisheries is already understaffed or shortmanned or overworked, but we get them to do more by an increased presence on the river and they bust 50 % of the people doing this from each aspect of the problem then it's still an uphill battle...but if they bust people as much as possible, AND a few other counter measures are added in such as some way to help  re-educate people who learn from the sockeye fishery that you are supposed to be tapping bottom the whole time AND maybe an on river watchgroup that can help enforcment AND much stiffer regulations and penalties...AND reduced allowable retention, then and only then will we be giving ourselves a realistic chance at turning this bus around!!! Don't you realize that all of this is not due to just one thing? There are a bunch of contributing factors here...we can't just tackle one, and expect any significant result.

sorry didn't see you had written a new post below me here....will repond in a sec

[TrophyHunter]

Agreed. bust em. so a concerted increase in enforcement for several seasons should relearn a few people... and I know it's unrealistic of me to think the sockeye fishery will be shut down, but that doesn't make my point above wrong...just means the solution to the problem isn't that obvious...if we can't shut down that fishery for obvious reasons, how can we change the habits it teaches?

The thing is where do you think people got the idea for flossing in the first place
Flossing was born on rivers such as the Vedder when people realized that lengthening their float dragged their presentation through the school of fish and in turn hooked more fish !! then idiots starting removing the floats completely and WHAM!!!! Flossing was born.. yes I agree that people need to be educated but continually blaming the Fraser for all the problems everwhere else grows so tiring !!!!! Anyone with a brain can floss on the Fraser and use shortfloat technique on every other system... Close The Fraser I couldn't care less if I get a few less pounds of fish a year... I converted two people on Sunday by setting up their Rod's for them, I gave away five floats all told !! this is what will change things .. not flinging blame around the web

[Ribwart]

I agree with you whole heartedly there rick...my little adventure with young travis the other day definitely made me feel like making a difference was possible...but I think of how many new people are learning the whole bottom bouncing thing on the fraser each summer and there are probably 1000's of people who have never fished before that are introduced to fishing through the sockeye fishery, and then they hear about these other fisheries, like the vedder or the harrison or the chehalis and they probably come down and think they'll likely be fishing somewhat similar to how they did on the fraser....then they see a float on other peoples lines and they end up doing the whole bottom bouncing with a float thing....it's the reverse  of how the whole flossing thing graduated from the vedder in the first place in your previous post!!!! but it's still a progression of a problem further and further from a solution...
That and others learn from watching the guys at KWB or elsewhere, who never fish the fraser fishery and they too start the whole bottom bouncing with float thing....so they are both legitimate contributors to the problem, amongst others...we need to somehow tackle them all in varying degrees if we are to succeed in changing things...or even stopping them from getting worse....cause that's all it's going to do. Get worse.

[chris gadsden]

Some good ideas are starting to surface here, thanks. We all know this is a very difficult subject that gets very touchy at times between many of us including myself. In one way this is good as it shows anglers are very concerned about what is happening out on the rivers.

However I think it has come to the point that we have to give it a good try and attempt to come up with some concrete solutions if at all possible to try to curtail what we see is happening right now on the Vedder River as I type this.

We must all try (including myself) to control our emotions and refrain from bashing each other as that will not, in my mind solve anything. It has now gone well beyond that, FOC is starting to listen to us on this subject and now that we may have their ear lets give them something to work with so we and the fish that we so treasure will both be winners. It will not be easy and we will just be fooling ourselves if we think that it will be but if we donot attempt to correct things we will have lost and that will not be a good ending as it will be the end of sports angling as it should be.

[chris gadsden]

Just a reminder so you know, the FOC fellow I took out yesterday will be reading this thread so it is your chance to relate good information and ideas to him.

I know most of you already know a number of FOC employees read FWR daily especially "The Journal".