Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: chris gadsden on December 31, 2019, 09:03:11 PM
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Steelhead story on the decline of steelhead aired on Global TV tonight. I see they used Rod (Fishing with Rod) clip of him landing a steelhead at Gwyn's Run from a few years ago that Nina Manique filmed . Also some clips from my channel (Lettermail) when I covered a few Chilliwack Fish and Game Protective Association annual Boxing Day Derby. This year the 75th edition of the derby only saw one steelhead landed. Good to see John Werring in the story too. https://www.facebook.com/chris.gadsden.7/videos/10159331362534056/
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Good memory. ;)
https://globalnews.ca/news/6353608/groups-sound-alarm-steelhead-annual-derby/
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Good memory. ;)
https://globalnews.ca/news/6353608/groups-sound-alarm-steelhead-annual-derby/
I was there with you and you caught this one on a small spoon. We caught a few there that year. I wonder if Global will send us some funds for using our clips?
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No one phoned me to ask for permission like they usually do. I'll need to message Chris Gailus and express my displeasure... ;)
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No one phoned me to ask for permission like they usually do. I'll need to message Chris Gailus and express my displeasure... ;)
Good coverage for the problems our fish are facing though. I guess my channel is public so anyone can use it whenever they want and I don't mind anyway.
I just remembered, Global still owes me for one story when I freelanced for them a few years ago. :-X :(
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Pretty priss poor coverage of the whole situation IMO. According to the Story the issue is Overfishing and DFO.
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Pretty priss poor coverage of the whole situation IMO. According to the Story the issue is Overfishing and DFO.
I agree, this story was thrown together much too quickly and could have been better.
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Pretty priss poor coverage of the whole situation IMO. According to the Story the issue is Overfishing and DFO.
+1 .. trying to equate the single weigh in for the Boxing Day Derby, the IFS crisis and the commercial chum fishery wasn't particularly astute journalism IMO. They seem to exclude the fact there was no chum commercial opening and the chum return was one of the lowest on record. Add to that the record low sockeye return for the Fraser there is just a lot of bad fishery news.
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https://www.facebook.com/GlobalBC/posts/10157804345347808
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some of those comments are amazingly dumb. Scary considering they are offered by anglers.
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some of those comments are amazingly dumb. Scary considering they are offered by anglers.
I like the one where the guy says they need to shut down rec fishing and his buddy is like I guess i won't be taking your kids anymore lol.
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In the long run (10, 20, 50, 100 years) these fish don't really have a future unfortunately. Majority of British Columbian do not recreationally fish for them and couldn't care less about a few fish which look pretty much the same as those farmed salmon or wild sockeye salmon laying at Superstore. Anglers like to think it is an iconic species, but they are not majestic like grizzly bears, not intelligent like orcas. There isn't an emotional connection with these fish unless you actually fish for them or see one in person. A browse through those comments on Facebook simply demonstrates how mis-informed and uneducated most people are when it comes to steelhead. Unless for some miraculous reason a lot more people suddenly become interested in salmon and steelhead fishing, we are the last couple of generations who have the privilege to enjoy this pastime unfortunately.
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So true Rodney! Sadly, I don't feel confident there are enough anglers or others that care enough about these fish to save them. Definitely the early run steelhead in the C-V are on the verge of extirpation; hopefully the next few years of float counts will give a better understanding of the remaining component of wild fish.
I can see the day, perhaps very soon, hatchery fish will be used for broodstock.
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So true Rodney! Sadly, I don't feel confident there are enough anglers or others that care enough about these fish to save them. Definitely the early run steelhead in the C-V are on the verge of extirpation; hopefully the next few years of float counts will give a better understanding of the remaining component of wild fish.
I can see the day, perhaps very soon, hatchery fish will be used for broodstock.
I think they have used hatchery steelhead from the C/V in the past to stock the Stave.
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https://www.gofishbc.com/Stocked-Fish/Detailed-Report.aspx?species_static=Steelhead&start=1/2/2010&end=1/2/2020
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I can see the day, perhaps very soon, hatchery fish will be used for broodstock.
Dave, did thet do that on the island when stock collapsed to the point there was no wild broodstock for hatchery programs?
Judging by the cancellation of the cutthroat hatchery program the staff at FLNRO would not be inclined to use hatchery fish for broodstock.
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Dave, did thet do that on the island when stock collapsed to the point there was no wild broodstock for hatchery programs?
I don't think so but could be wrong. I know FLNRO will be against this idea, really that's their job to keep this system functioning as a wild steelhead river. I applaud their efforts but the reality is hatchery protocols will have to be changed because there will not be enough wild fish to feed the system in place now.
There are a ton of anglers out there that want to catch and retain steelhead - that won't stop and more fish will be needed.
Considering the fact DFO has the final say in salmonid production at the Chilliwack facility, whatever changes that might come will be have to be heavily negotiated and all that takes time.
I believe the early run component of this system will be genetically extinct in 2 cycles if we continue the same practices.
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Hopefully that genetic component to run timing is not as hard wired as your last post assumes. Many later arriving fish may have an earlier returning non-dominant gene and aid in a recovery for that segment of the stock if appropriate conservation approaches are developed.
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Has anyone else seen the seal that’s been hanging out from crossing to Browne. Seen some pics of fish with fresh gashes. I wonder how many it’s picking off.
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Hopefully that genetic component to run timing is not as hard wired as your last post assumes. Many later arriving fish may have an earlier returning non-dominant gene and aid in a recovery for that segment of the stock if appropriate conservation approaches are developed.
The 2004 LGL telemetry study concluded entry time didn't seem to matter much regarding migration, ie a few later run fish did migrate into the upper river. I'm basing my prediction on numbers observed over the past 9 years, compared to what I remember 30 years ago. Ocean conditions were not kind to this years returning steelhead so I'm not optimistic but sure hope I'm wrong.
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Has anyone else seen the seal that’s been hanging out from crossing to Browne. Seen some pics of fish with fresh gashes. I wonder how many it’s picking off.
Saw a picture of a seal slashed fish today.
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The 2004 LGL telemetry study concluded entry time didn't seem to matter much regarding migration, ie a few later run fish did migrate into the upper river.
if... and it is a big if, the fish you and Buck observe every spring are predominately early run fish (exactly what date range are early run fish? Everything for this season so far is based on limited and biased data sets) the telemetry study you referred to indicates there would be genetic mixing among those and later run strains. Even if the early genetic timing is non dominant some % of returning offspring would be part of the early component.
There is no way of knowing this but it is a possibility it is srtrongly suggested by Mendelian genetics.
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if... and it is a big if, the fish you and Buck observe every spring are predominately early run fish (exactly what date range are early run fish? Everything for this season so far is based on limited and biased data sets) the telemetry study you referred to indicates there would be genetic mixing among those and later run strains. Even if the early genetic timing is non dominant some % of returning offspring would be part of the early component.
There is no way of knowing this but it is a possibility it is srtrongly suggested by Mendelian genetics.
Agreed, and is probably the reason we still have a few early run fish. As stated before, I consider early run C-V fish to be Nov to late January.
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Have fisheries or conservation officers ever done anything about a problem seal? Having a resident seal in the lower vedder during the steelhead run could be disastrous.
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--The intent of these articles is to get people who are (not in the know) to question or maybe research further into the subject. If enough people show interest then more informed coverage will follow. We should be encouraging people to ask questions and seek answers, rather than telling them how dumb and ill-informed they area.
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--The intent of these articles is to get people who are (not in the know) to question or maybe research further into the subject. If enough people show interest then more informed coverage will follow. We should be encouraging people to ask questions and seek answers, rather than telling them how dumb and ill-informed they area.
I don’t think anyone is calling the people asking questions dumb. It’s the people who
Don’t have a clue making bold, ill informed and ignorant statements about the situation. Potentially swaying the opinions of others.
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Have fisheries or conservation officers ever done anything about a problem seal? Having a resident seal in the lower vedder during the steelhead run could be disastrous.
I recall in the 60's the local CO at the time, Art Butler, was rumored to have shot one at the Vedder bridge, and I have seen a dead seal at the train bridge at roughly the same time period.
Seals are relatively common on the C-V but so are otters and I often wonder if anglers get them confused.
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I recall in the 60's the local CO at the time, Art Butler, was rumored to have shot one at the Vedder bridge, and I have seen a dead seal at the train bridge at roughly the same time period.
Seals are relatively common on the C-V but so are otters and I often wonder if anglers get them confused.
There was a seal hanging out at Hopedale road for an extended period during salmon season, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same one.
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--The intent of these articles is to get people who are (not in the know) to question or maybe research further into the subject. If enough people show interest then more informed coverage will follow. We should be encouraging people to ask questions and seek answers, rather than telling them how dumb and ill-informed they area.
some of the statements apparently by people who do fish were not questions and displayed considerable ignorance of steelhead biology and simplistic notions of what is causing the decline. I called this dumb and that's how I see it. My experience of people like that is they seldom raise the questions or do the research you suggest.
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--The intent of these articles is to get people who are (not in the know) to question or maybe research further into the subject. If enough people show interest then more informed coverage will follow. We should be encouraging people to ask questions and seek answers, rather than telling them how dumb and ill-informed they area.
I agree, these posts should be developing discussion. Along those lines, here is something a Provincial fisheries technician and I wrote 20 years ago. The tech was almost fired for putting his name on it ..
Saving Vedder steelhead
Are wild steelhead populations on the C-V declining, holding their own,or increasing? Sadly there is scant data to suggest any of the 3 above scenarios have credence. The last snorkle-swim steelhead count conducted on the Chilliwack-Vedder system revealed what many have suspected for a long time – that despite catch and release regulations since the mid 1970’s wild, early run steelhead are not increasing in numbers and may in fact be decreasing. This is not a situation unique to the Vedder; several Vancouver Island streams are closed to angling due to alarmingly low numbers of fish.
The float count, conducted by Aquatic Resources Limited Feb.15-18/00, revealed a total of 209 fish, of which an unknown number were adipose clipped hatchery fish. Obviously, not all of the fish present in the river were seen. In some pools a known number of radio tagged fish were present; not all of these fish were observed by the floaters.
Geneticists suggest that when a population of animals dips to 200 individuals, the genetic diversity ( that is, the very characteristics that make that stock, or race, unique) is at risk of being unable to meet the “challenges”, ie. climate change, disease, changing water temperatures/levels that enable a species to survive. Diversity means strength and stability and for whatever reasons early run winter steelhead are possibly losing the challenge of being adaptable.
Until we fully understand the mechanisms and processes that are driving the decline of wild steelhead, and other salmonids, it is imperative we take steps to halt the descent while in the freshwater environment.
The premise of this recovery plan is based on increasing the utilisation of the recently constructed Watershed Restoration and Fisheries Renewal projects in the Chilliwack River valley by increasing the numbers of spawners which in turn would increase numbers of fry and parr. This would be accomplished by allowing early run hatchery fish (progeny from the previous generation of wild fish) to spawn. Thankfully, the gene pool in the Chilliwack -Vedder system is still somewhat intact and because the numbers of wild fish are thought to be low, hatchery fish spawning will enhance the genetic diversity rather than harm it.
Here’s how we do it:
1. Stop production of steelhead at the Chilliwack River Hatchery.
2. Change angling regulations on the Chilliwack –Vedder to catch and release for all steelhead/rainbow trout, year round, including the future generations of fin-clipped fish due to return.
3. Allow angling using single, barbless hooks until Feb.28(9), any gear or lure.
4. From Mar.1 to Mar.31. regulations change to allow fly fishing only; from Apr.1 to Ap.30 fly fishing only from Tamihi Bridge down, again single, barbless hooks. Close river completely from May 1 to June 30.
5. Transport hatchery steelhead arriving at the hatchery in late March- April, to areas considered suitable for steelhead, ie Upper Chilliwack River (Dolly Varden Creek), off channel habitat areas like Centennial and Yukalup channels, Slesse and Foley Creeks.
Continue this practice until hatchery (marked) fish no longer home in on hatchery water
6. Divert the money spent to produce steelhead at the Chilliwack River Hatchery (app. $100,000 annually) to initialise, maintain and monitor an instream fertilisation program in the Chilliwack River watershed. This would of course benefit all species, not just steelhead.
7. Promote and encourage habitat enhancement projects in the mid and lower river areas.
8. To allow anglers the opportunity of harvesting (killing) steelhead, increase hatchery production on the Chehalis, Allouette, Stave and Campbell River systems.
With proper tourism promotion we think this plan would have a beneficial impact on the local economy. A quality, no kill, and dramatically less crowded fishery would attract many out of town anglers, especially during the fly only season (think Skeena system south, minus the jet boats). Such regulations would win the accolades of conservation groups, environmentalists, guides and outfitters and, we think, any angler who is concerned about saving Vedder steelhead.
It is time to take measures if wild steelhead are to be part of British Columbia’s future. We do not have much control on steelhead ocean survival but do have a moral obligation to do whatever we can when they return to freshwater. We cannot afford to wait any longer before taking action.
Just something to discuss. Personally I don't think the appetite is there for a C&R only steelhead fishery on this river, but I still dream.
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"It is time to take measures if wild steelhead are to be part of British Columbia’s future. We do not have much control on steelhead ocean survival but do have a moral obligation to do whatever we can when they return to freshwater. We cannot afford to wait any longer before taking action."
--Could not have said it better so just agreeing with the quote. Agree or not, I always respect those who offer potential solutions.
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Thanx for this Dave. I would make one amendment to #4. Take the fly fishing March 1 to 31 out and replace with regular angling. On a side note I doubt the crowds would diminish.
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I agree, these posts should be developing discussion. Along those lines, here is something a Provincial fisheries technician and I wrote 20 years ago. The tech was almost fired for putting his name on it ..
Saving Vedder steelhead
Are wild steelhead populations on the C-V declining, holding their own,or increasing? Sadly there is scant data to suggest any of the 3 above scenarios have credence. The last snorkle-swim steelhead count conducted on the Chilliwack-Vedder system revealed what many have suspected for a long time – that despite catch and release regulations since the mid 1970’s wild, early run steelhead are not increasing in numbers and may in fact be decreasing. This is not a situation unique to the Vedder; several Vancouver Island streams are closed to angling due to alarmingly low numbers of fish.
The float count, conducted by Aquatic Resources Limited Feb.15-18/00, revealed a total of 209 fish, of which an unknown number were adipose clipped hatchery fish. Obviously, not all of the fish present in the river were seen. In some pools a known number of radio tagged fish were present; not all of these fish were observed by the floaters.
Geneticists suggest that when a population of animals dips to 200 individuals, the genetic diversity ( that is, the very characteristics that make that stock, or race, unique) is at risk of being unable to meet the “challenges”, ie. climate change, disease, changing water temperatures/levels that enable a species to survive. Diversity means strength and stability and for whatever reasons early run winter steelhead are possibly losing the challenge of being adaptable.
Until we fully understand the mechanisms and processes that are driving the decline of wild steelhead, and other salmonids, it is imperative we take steps to halt the descent while in the freshwater environment.
The premise of this recovery plan is based on increasing the utilisation of the recently constructed Watershed Restoration and Fisheries Renewal projects in the Chilliwack River valley by increasing the numbers of spawners which in turn would increase numbers of fry and parr. This would be accomplished by allowing early run hatchery fish (progeny from the previous generation of wild fish) to spawn. Thankfully, the gene pool in the Chilliwack -Vedder system is still somewhat intact and because the numbers of wild fish are thought to be low, hatchery fish spawning will enhance the genetic diversity rather than harm it.
Here’s how we do it:
1. Stop production of steelhead at the Chilliwack River Hatchery.
2. Change angling regulations on the Chilliwack –Vedder to catch and release for all steelhead/rainbow trout, year round, including the future generations of fin-clipped fish due to return.
3. Allow angling using single, barbless hooks until Feb.28(9), any gear or lure.
4. From Mar.1 to Mar.31. regulations change to allow fly fishing only; from Apr.1 to Ap.30 fly fishing only from Tamihi Bridge down, again single, barbless hooks. Close river completely from May 1 to June 30.
5. Transport hatchery steelhead arriving at the hatchery in late March- April, to areas considered suitable for steelhead, ie Upper Chilliwack River (Dolly Varden Creek), off channel habitat areas like Centennial and Yukalup channels, Slesse and Foley Creeks.
Continue this practice until hatchery (marked) fish no longer home in on hatchery water
6. Divert the money spent to produce steelhead at the Chilliwack River Hatchery (app. $100,000 annually) to initialise, maintain and monitor an instream fertilisation program in the Chilliwack River watershed. This would of course benefit all species, not just steelhead.
7. Promote and encourage habitat enhancement projects in the mid and lower river areas.
8. To allow anglers the opportunity of harvesting (killing) steelhead, increase hatchery production on the Chehalis, Allouette, Stave and Campbell River systems.
With proper tourism promotion we think this plan would have a beneficial impact on the local economy. A quality, no kill, and dramatically less crowded fishery would attract many out of town anglers, especially during the fly only season (think Skeena system south, minus the jet boats). Such regulations would win the accolades of conservation groups, environmentalists, guides and outfitters and, we think, any angler who is concerned about saving Vedder steelhead.
It is time to take measures if wild steelhead are to be part of British Columbia’s future. We do not have much control on steelhead ocean survival but do have a moral obligation to do whatever we can when they return to freshwater. We cannot afford to wait any longer before taking action.
Just something to discuss. Personally I don't think the appetite is there for a C&R only steelhead fishery on this river, but I still dream.
Fly only may be too strict, how about bait ban since Dec to April. The bait ban is period implied in Capilano, it would work in Vedder.
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I am not for the fly only regulation. In my opinion the extra pressure the last 10 years has forced these fish out of the best staging and spawning areas in the upper river. It’s not that there even being caught that many times. It’s the endless barrage of gear all the fishable runs up there see now.
10 years ago you would only have a couple guys fish those runs a day and they would still see hours of rest. There was way more fish spawning in the fishable section of river back then. Now every decent spot from slesse to slab is basically pounded from dawn to dusk. Tired of the endless harassment they just move on until they get past the boundary. To protect these early fish the best course of action would be no angling from anyone in the upper from mid March-early April on. Guys swinging fly lines over there head would still push them out of this prime habitat.
If the ministry was willing to go to the effort they could accomplish the same thing by just closing down a dozen upper river stackholes and this would still allow anglers to fish the pocket water and shallow/ runs for fresh migrating fish while leaving the stale mature fish alone.
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I agree with much of what is said in the various suggestions.
While I do enjoy flyfishing and have caught Steelhead on the fly, I do not necessarily agree with making the system "flyfishing only" for a length of time.
One of my more successful outings, I landed a decent number of Steelhead on my 5 wt while targeting Cut-throat. I happened to be using sparkle buggers and while my buddy had a drift rod, he was not hooking up. The next day, I returned to the same location with my eight weight and did well, but as an conscious angler, realized my potential impact from the previous day of playing fish with light equipment.
Using fly rods does not guarantee a "more ethical, or morale" angler is targeting the fish. Why would those who still wish to fish and catch fish not switch over? We know and understand many fish are taken in the lower river, at places such as "The Gauntlet" effectively by both fly fishermen and drift anglers. The world of flyfishing has evolved and improved immensely in the past 20 years to become effective and efficient. To be honest, the world of drift fishing and the gear used has pretty much stayed the same during that same time period.
I mention this, for there have been times when we have been targeting steelhead we could visually see were holding with all sorts of items, from roe, to blades, to rubber worms. No success. But the minute I put on my sinking line with a popsicle leech, I had the fish on first cast. Many anglers now swear by gigs above all other gear they may deploy. How is the fly designed with the same colours and materials as a gig any different?
I would be a supporter of earlier closures and closures which affect all anglers equally.
I think anglers cannot do this goal/plan in isolation, and regulations must be made which affect all other areas which have an impact on these fish and their survival.
I saw these same types of arguments deployed by anglers who were adamant they were the true advocates of the Thompson River Steelhead. For years, I would post against gear restrictions on the Thompson which pitted different angler groups against one another. My reason for this was once anglers were divided, and the other various groups (not recreational anglers) who were having a drastic impact were ignored, the Thompson system would be irrelevant, efforts become non existent, and decline would take place quickly. We had gear restrictions set in place, and once that happened, any discussions I ever heard about the Thompson system disappeared and became non existent. Now, where is the Thompson at? Even in it's horrible state of decline, it takes a poorly done global news article to generate measly discussion on the subject.
One of the points made which I am confused by and do not agree with is as follows:
"8. To allow anglers the opportunity of harvesting (killing) steelhead, increase hatchery production on the Chehalis, Allouette, Stave and Campbell River systems."
I fish these systems for Steelhead. Maybe it is time to not keep things back, but the Statlu (feeds into the Chehalis) without a doubt produces some of the largest, most fiercest fighting wild steelhead I have ever caught. Why must systems who cannot sustain a large number of anglers be regulated to having their populations of wild stock steelhead reduced to hatchery kill fishery systems? Why not convert the whole lower mainland to catch and release fisheries? Even in systems where we may see the "native" stock has been impacted by hatchery clones, left to their own and given time, they will revert to an evolved, native Steelhead of a sorts once again. I would argue a surviving, altered, evolved, wild steelhead would be much better than no steelhead at all. Efforts should be employed to support all strains of Steelhead in the Fraser valley, including systems not mentioned such as the Pitt, the Coquitlam, Coquhalla, the Seymour, Capalino, Norrish, Kanaka Creek, Whonnock Creek, and those in the Harrison watershed. I have even seen images of wild steelhead in Marshall Creek.
Hatcheries should remain, but as research centers, focusing on enhancing salmon stocks through hatchery production, but maybe research for Steelhead, dedicated to learning more about them and as places to preserve their genes (genome banks?). Maybe a program can be devised to incubate and raise a certain number of eggs, to ensure they are not washed out of the gravel, buried by mud or landslides, or eaten by predators. Once the eggs are hatched, the fish are released quickly into the system, rather than raised in tanks. I know some would argue for a complete halt to human intervention and assistance, but I think in light of all the damage and impact we have had on their ecosystem, we need to admit this is likely impossible, and without some intervention on our part, their future years in the lower mainland and Fraser tributaries will be much shorter than we would wish for. Even at that, I feel their days are limited and future expropriation is unavoidable.
These are a few of my thoughts on the subject.
While I find internet discussion and conversation interesting, I am unfortunately more inclined to accept Andrew Weaver's hypothesis he formulated on West Coast Salmonoids back in 1989/90. He predicted as climates warmed and ecosystems changed, our most vulnerable salmonoids on the West Coast would go extinct, as those which survived evolved and made their way north to propagate ecosystems which were more favourable to their survival. As we are content to discuss what should happen, point fingers at one another, and do nothing to change things to make it happen, I am more inclined to see this as our salmonoids future fate.
We and the selfish needs of our current society are these fishes worst enemies.
Dano
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Are you proposing .Making it fly fishing only from Mar 1 to the end of April, better for the fish? Or just so people can fly fish with out other drift guys around? So during the other months there’s no fly fishing allowed?
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20 years ago there was not as much interest in fly fishing the Chilliwack for steelhead in the winter months.
It seems one theme that runs through some of the discussions above is a need to reduce the angling pressure on the wild steelhead that are left in the system As Rod said in his post on the Global News page the causes of the declines we have seen of late are many, complicated, not well understood and to some extent beyond our control. That means no matter what we do it may have little positive impact, if any.
If we are unwilling to use tackle restrictions to lower angling pressure what others measures are there or should we consider complete closures for much of the season with a short catch and release period when fish numbers allow. If we continue to enhance or even intensify enhancement on other systems how will that impact those mostly smaller systems with even more troubled populations of wild steelhead? I don't see the benefit left in destroying what quality of angling left on those streams to provide a certain segment of anglers who have to catch something they can eat. Those streams are as valuable as the Vedder. Anglers who live in Chilliwack have never had to bother to find that out.
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Are you proposing .Making it fly fishing only from Mar 1 to the end of April, better for the fish? Or just so people can fly fish with out other drift guys around? So during the other months there’s no fly fishing allowed?
Folks, this was written 20 years ago. Take the good parts and discard the rest, this is meant as a discussion on how we can conserve these early run fish.
Besides, back then I had pretty much stopped gear fishing and was a fly guy ;D ;D ;D
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If we want to reduce pressure, how about a complete closure 3 or 4 days a week? Tuesday thru Thursday? Or even Sunday thru Wednesday? That way there is only one day of weekend pressure per week.
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I don't think reducing the pressure is the answer when the main source of wild fish mortality comes from the wild brood take. Also I think to effective reduce fishing pressure you would probably need to shut it down for weeks at a time.
So there really is only a few options. Don't take wild fish for brood and run a C&R fishery or take less brood when the return is week. That would probably mean taking later time brood after % of the run could be enumerated.
Or take brood from hatchery fish
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I don't think reducing the pressure is the answer when the main source of wild fish mortality comes from the wild brood take. Also I think to effective reduce fishing pressure you would probably need to shut it down for weeks at a time.
So there really is only a few options. Don't take wild fish for brood and run a C&R fishery or take less brood when the return is week. That would probably mean taking later time brood after % of the run could be enumerated.
Or take brood from hatchery fish
That means C & R only. just like skeena area. Which is not bad idea. The result is reduce the angling pressure
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I don't think reducing the pressure is the answer when the main source of wild fish mortality comes from the wild brood take.
...and how do we know that is the main source of wild fish mortality? With evidence that most if not all the wild fish get hooked and landed in a season and a good % 2x with mort rates in the 2 to 10% on a single hook and release logically the wild stock c&r mortality adds up to 35 or more pretty quickly.
Consider we don't know
- how being hooked and landed 2x or more affects mortality rates but most assume it will go up with subsequent events.
- how being hooked and landed affects spawning success or gamete survival efficiency
assuming c&r mortality is not involved is suspect.
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For the early times fish I think it’s a smaller factor then The brood take.
If C@R is a significant cause then the only solution would be to shut it down. I think pushing for that will cause Interest groups to dig in their heels and nothing will be done.
Why not run it like the coho fishery
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ENGO don’t care about steelhead, First Nations don’t care about steelhead only recreational fishermen do. Reducing or eliminating C@R would be the end of anyone who cares about this fish.
From bob Hooton:
“ Not an unreasonable outlook but only because the salmon fishery, on all three fronts, is focused entirely on harvest. The steelhead scenario is quite different in that catch and release has sustained fisheries that wouldn’t otherwise have lasted as long as they did. The east coast Vancouver Island example is one to learn from. Closures eventually eliminated all interest. A quarter century later there is only a handful of anglers left fishing the half dozen rivers that might still support a steelhead or two. We’re falling off the perch steadily now and nowhere near numerous enough to generate any political pressure that might have made a difference re habitat protection, water abstraction, etc. There is no one to throw the torch to. Attend a local F&G club gathering or three these days and check out the demographics for a lesson in this regard.“
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For the early times fish I think it’s a smaller factor then The brood take.
If C@R is a significant cause then the only solution would be to shut it down. I think pushing for that will cause Interest groups to dig in their heels and nothing will be done.
Why not run it like the coho fishery
Man not trying to be rude but didn’t you say in the past you haven’t actually steelhead fished? It’s been years since they have taken more then 8-10 fish for brood before February. I usually see piss poor handling of atleast that many fish for the fb/ig crew every year that could very easily result in pre spawn mortality
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--I don't think the intent of the 8 discussion points was to have them implemented now but more to demonstrate that there are always boots on the ground that have a feeling for what is or may be going on and needs work. What we are lacking is the political will from those who have the power to act on information supplied from informed sources and follow up with research to monitor and adjust as needed.
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ENGO don’t care about steelhead, First Nations don’t care about steelhead only recreational fishermen do. Reducing or eliminating C@R would be the end of anyone who cares about this fish.
PSF, BCWF and SSBC are all ENGOs.
Anything that is done to improve steelhead habitat on any level will benefit steelhead and it doesn't matter who the group is that helps that happen.
anything that takes some pressure off early fish will help early fish.
It's worthwhile to look at other jurisdictions and fisheries and consider if they might be worthwhile. In Quebec Atlantic Salmon fishers can either kill one fish if allowed and stop fishing or catch and release 3 then they have to stop angling for the day. Since Dave suggested fly angling in his 8 points worth mentioning that in NFLD/Lab they can only Fly fish for salmon with floating lines, no weight on the line and no weight on the fly.
Point being is there any possible regulation that can reduce pressure on the fish but keep a fishery open? Maybe even just returning to the steelhead designated water regulation?
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Good post Ralph.
When we suggested the fly only regulation we were thinking of how managers have changed angler practices in Eastern Canada for Atlantic salmon and how much that drove local economies. We thought at the time, and I still do, that there needs to be a monetary valu associated with these fish to keep steelhead in the spotlight and keep populations viable. That might mean using hatchery fish for brood stock to keep anglers buying punchcards and tackle stores in business, or change things up and have a limited fly only fishery to attract tourists. Or, perhaps both.
The bottom line is things will have to change if we want any kind of steelhead fishery on the C-V.
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"Steelhead and their biology" by John McMillan presented by the Steelhead Society of BC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=31&v=7_h8UT3v2AM&feature=emb_logo
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"Steelhead and their biology" by John McMillan presented by the Steelhead Society of BC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=31&v=7_h8UT3v2AM&feature=emb_logo
Thanks for that! It's interesting how important resident rainbows are to steelhead. Perhaps it's telling as Buck and I were seeing trout with steelhead quite often, and documented it.
It's been several years since we have seen a trout, let alone with a steelhead.
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https://www.gofishbc.com/Stocked-Fish/Detailed-Report.aspx?species_static=Steelhead&start=1/2/2010&end=1/2/2020
Interesting report. What is the difference between "Diploid" and "Winter" or "Summer" fish. I'm curious why they're reporting them separately.
I've read that "diploid" are normal reproductive individuals.
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Thanks for that! It's interesting how important resident rainbows are to steelhead. Perhaps it's telling as Buck and I were seeing trout with steelhead quite often, and documented it.
It's been several years since we have seen a trout, let alone with a steelhead.
2016 you comment on seeing trout, the video is a great watch and the quy giving it is quite funny.
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=39637.msg374726#msg374726
The commentary from bent rod in the comment is interesting about catching lots of does and there being very few bucks in the same season you note trout with the spawning females.
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Did not know how important resident rainbows are to steelhead! I do catch a few small rainbows every winter on the Vedder.
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the last half on how hatcheries change steelhead genetics and reduce diversity was far more important at least to the discussion topic. Essentially it points a finger directly at the hatchery program for changes in the structure of the steelhead runs and population. It also strongly suggests that hatchery reproduction has played a major role in steelhead declines on the south coast both in BC and the US.
Also called out the myth that what we call residuals in the V-C system should not be subject to a catch and kill fishery in the summer. The high population of residuals also suggests to me that something is not quite right in how that program is managed.
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the last half on how hatcheries change steelhead genetics and reduce diversity was far more important at least to the discussion topic. Essentially it points a finger directly at the hatchery program for changes in the structure of the steelhead runs and population. It also strongly suggests that hatchery reproduction has played a major role in steelhead declines on the south coast both in BC and the US.
Also called out the myth that what we call residuals in the V-C system should not be subject to a catch and kill fishery in the summer. The high population of residuals also suggests to me that something is not quite right in how that program is managed.
and your solution is? I agree tho the trout fishery could be having a significant impact in the C/V system including the lakes.
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the last half on how hatcheries change steelhead genetics and reduce diversity was far more important at least to the discussion topic. The high population of residuals also suggests to me that something is not quite right in how that program is managed.
If you mean high residualization on the C-V, it's because the juvenile steelhead released from the Chilliwack River hatchery are not all smolting, some far from it.
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The bottom line is things will have to change if we want any kind of steelhead fishery on the C-V.
Hey Dave,
Great stuff with your list. I think most if not all are still very valid today. While there are a lot of different considerations at play on this issue, I think it can be distilled down to a fairly simple question of tradeoffs. Are interested parties (this includes recreational anglers, local residents, non-local residents with an interest, local FNs, local businesses, conservationists etc) willing to accept likely loss of a sustainable wild steelhead population on the Chilliwack in order to provide recreational fishermen the opportunity to catch and kill a steelhead? The pressure that is on the wild population is only going in one direction, as as other factors impact the producitivity of the wild fish the impacts being discussed here will become increasingly severe. Fishermen (and society in general) are not good at recognizing the clear tradeoffs that exist, and try to have our cake and eat it too. With salmonids it is apparent to me that that is no longer possible, so we either make a clear decision about what we are doing, or stand down and fix the harm we've done.
THe residualization issue is one I've observed at Chehalis as well when snorkelling in the canyon. There are thousands of clipped steelhead juveniles kilometres up in the canyon. Not good. In wild steelhead, trout are an important adaptive life history strategy but in hatchery systems this is nothing more than a symptom of issues with the hatchery program and an increasing pressure on the wild population.
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Hatchery programs had nothing to do with the decline of the Thompson steelhead run.
Residual rainbows and jacks should always be a part (maybe 10-15%) of steelhead and salmon hatchery broodstock to help increase the bio-diversity of the run.
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Hey Dave,
Great stuff with your list. I think most if not all are still very valid today. While there are a lot of different considerations at play on this issue, I think it can be distilled down to a fairly simple question of tradeoffs. Are interested parties (this includes recreational anglers, local residents, non-local residents with an interest, local FNs, local businesses, conservationists etc) willing to accept likely loss of a sustainable wild steelhead population on the Chilliwack in order to provide recreational fishermen the opportunity to catch and kill a steelhead? The pressure that is on the wild population is only going in one direction, as as other factors impact the producitivity of the wild fish the impacts being discussed here will become increasingly severe. Fishermen (and society in general) are not good at recognizing the clear tradeoffs that exist, and try to have our cake and eat it too. With salmonids it is apparent to me that that is no longer possible, so we either make a clear decision about what we are doing, or stand down and fix the harm we've done.
THe residualization issue is one I've observed at Chehalis as well when snorkelling in the canyon. There are thousands of clipped steelhead juveniles kilometres up in the canyon. Not good. In wild steelhead, trout are an important adaptive life history strategy but in hatchery systems this is nothing more than a symptom of issues with the hatchery program and an increasing pressure on the wild population.
Funny you mention the Chehalis. I snorkelers for a few years in a row. I witnessed the same thing. At first I thought ( wow look at all the trout ) bit I quickly realized they were all clipped and it made sense to me. These were all hatchery fish. The three times I snorkeled it from the Statlu down I noticed more wild fish ( Cutthroat ) in the Statlu than the Chehalis. I've seen pools full of wild fish in the Statlu and then none at the Chehlis confluence I can remeber being at the base of the mini waterfall just 100 meters down from the Statlu in the Chehalis and seeing ( what seemed like ) 100's of smolts and 5 big Summer Steel in the tailout. The smolts were always at the front and the adults were always in the back. Every pool.
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If you mean high residualization on the C-V, it's because the juvenile steelhead released from the Chilliwack River hatchery are not all smolting, some far from it.
I think you maybe should review that part of the presentation. Well fed smolts may be more inclined to remain in stream and interbreed with wild steelhead
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Funny you mention the Chehalis. The three times I snorkeled it from the Statlu down I noticed more wild fish ( Cutthroat ) in the Statlu than the Chehalis. I've seen pools full of wild fish in the Statlu and then none at the Chehlis confluence I can remeber being at the base of the mini waterfall just 100 meters down from the Statlu in the Chehalis and seeing ( what seemed like ) 100's of smolts and 5 big Summer Steel in the tailout. The smolts were always at the front and the adults were always in the back. Every pool.
Probably due to the fertilization project that was done in the Statlu and a couple other creeks in the drainage as well.
On a few occasions over the years, I’ve had summer-runs absolutely destroy smolts that I have hooked by accident while fishing for summer-runs and have observed them in the stomach contents of summers that I have harvested. If I was a smolt, I wouldn’t be hanging around the adults as well!
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the Skeena, Dean, Bella Coola all have no hatchery production. They seem to be fairly well to reasonably well. While it would be hard to find a stream that hasn't been seriously affected by the blob phenomena, habitat degradation and net fishery interception, the information in John McMillan's presentation presents a powerful case that hatcheries reduce diversity among steelhead, that have been able to exist for millions of years alongside much larger populations of salmon because of their diverse life histories.
The more disturbing facts are the number of rivers with once healthy populations of wild steelhead, that after 5 or more generations of large scale hatchery production, saw massive collapses of both wild and artifically produced stock and these have not recovered despite hatchery augmentation. Quite the opposite, hatchery production has in a good many cases been shut down since there are not enough wild fish to support them.
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I do notice with the Chehalis that when I have a 4 + summer run day, they all are wild fish. Last year and the year prior I would average 1 hatch to 3 wilds but this year I've probably caught 16 fish ? More if you add in my friends that I go with and they've all had the adipose intact. Is this because they simply not clipped ? I dont know. The max is intact as well. Normally they clip both. We had a 6 Steely day 2 months ago and all of them were wilds ( or not marked hatchery fish ). If these are wilds, then they have really taken quite well to this system.
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I think you maybe should review that part of the presentation. Well fed smolts may be more inclined to remain in stream and interbreed with wild steelhead
My take on this was he meant juveniles might not smolt if enough food was available to make going to the sea unnecessary; ie the Thompson or other productive rivers.
Chilliwack juveniles are released on a set day, as their space and water are needed for the next batch of steelhead in the pipeline. They are released downstream of the Vedder bridge to avoid interaction as much as possible with wild steelhead … downstream of the Vedder bridge is, for various reasons, not good habitat for wild steelhead juveniles, so any interactions are minimal. The fish are released nearly 2 months before the river opens to angling but on opening day, many are caught by fishermen and of course they have been heron and merganser food all the while.
Imo, these fish juveniles aren’t sticking around because the food is good (you’d be hard pressed to find any invertebrates in the lower river nowadays), they’re still here because they haven’t smolted and decided to migrate. I’m not sure how this problem could be solved, with the hatchery rearing protocols in place now.
The point I'm making is if we are to continue with this hatchery program, and I would bet a pension cheque it will continue, wild steelhead diversity be damned, lets do it to the best of our ability.
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I suppose I should digress on this a bit.
Think about the evolution of salmonids. They all originated as fresh water species, basically trout. Because they were successful, almost too successful, the populations grew to a size where they started running out of food. Competition within the species would result in some individuals hogging all the food. Those fish would dominate the fresh water environment. The less successful individuals would be forced to move in to brackish, estuarial waters in order to access the (much larger) food supply in the ocean. Those that adapted to the salt conditions grew fat but, because of their fresh water origins, couldn't spawn in the ocean and had to return to the rivers and lakes to spawn. They were much bigger then the 'residuals' and dominated the spawning grounds.
Sometimes they would get lost and spawn in the cold, low-productivity rivers that wouldn't normally be able to support a year-round trout population. Because there was no competition for spawning grounds or fry rearing territory, they all grew into fry. They might stay for the summer, but winter would force them to the ocean to find food and survive. This is why some steelhead rivers have no residual rainbows, or in the case of sockeye, no kokanee.
Bottom line is this: more productive environments, like a hatchery, encourage residualization. It's not a problem because they are accessing different food supplies and the larger anadromous versions dominate the spawning grounds.
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"They are released downstream of the Vedder bridge "
They started doing this what, 3,4,5 years ago? Presumably more smolts survive to get to the ocean. And how has that worked out?
"once healthy populations of wild steelhead, that after 5 or more generations of large scale hatchery production, saw massive collapse"
Just what happened on the Cap... but not because of the hatchery. Happened in California too... when they pulled all the water from the rivers for agriculture.
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Dave, et al. I can't see where I said the hatcheries should be closed or done away with. However some of you regard the hatchery programs as they exist as some sort of sacred cow, carved in stone (if I can mix my metaphors) that can't be altered no matter what is learned about their short comings.
Personally I think if the program as it exists continues long enough along with the growing development above the crossing, the decline in steelhead will take care of it all on it's own. It is being repeated all up and down the coast.
In California much of the loss of wild steelhead populations can be related to dam construction and development, including agriculture. Climate change hasn't helped either. For the most part hatcheries haven't prevented this collapse though some rivers have recovered with little or no hatchery assistance. The Smith is one example. Declines in Oregon (ie the Willamette) and Washington (The Stilligumish) have not been stopped let alone reversed.
On the Island much of the once fine steelheading in many rivers is becoming an increasingly distant memory. Hatchery programs got rolling their in the late 70s and 80s but by the late 90s came alarming declines in numbers. Most of those programs are no more or limited. Even the Stamp the most artificially enhanced winter run in the Province is a shadow of what its once was.
Anyone who has read some of the available literature from the 1st half of the last century knows that steelhead runs were not just more numerous but more diverse than today. Homesteaders reported fall steelhead runs in some mainland streams. I have a letter from the Haney Fish and Game club that reported the Alouettes had a considerable run in late November through December. The Campbell (on the Island) had a run of Spring to (late April through June) of 'half pounders' (1 to 4lbs) that was still around in 70s. Haig Brown documented these fish. They are gone now, totally disappeared. Should we surprised the late November December component of the Chilliwack is disappearing as well?
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Ralph, I think our dogs are chasing the same coon.
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What really drives me nuts is us humans trying to apply human values to fish spawning.
The strategy that fish use, successful over millions of years, is to produce as many fertilized eggs as possible and leave them to survive on their own without any nurturing by the adults. A very low percentage survives. Humans have a small number of children and take care of them till they are adult enough to survive on their own. A high percentage survives. Very different strategies.
Hatcheries try to apply the human strategy to fish. We take care of them, protect them from predators, feed them, place them in the river where we think they will survive the best, etc., etc. But we only hatch a small number and hope that a higher percentage survives.
The emphasis should be on producing as many eyed eggs as possible and placing them in the river, perhaps as alevin or un-fed fry, where they would naturally be. The percentage survival would be lower but the number of returning adults should be higher. And they wouldn't have the epigenetic changes associated with tank raised fish.
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He said that hatcheries increase abundance in the video
I’m not sure how much brood is taken for the c/v but I do know that more hatch fish are caught in Seasonal derby then the parental brood taken.
That means with the help of the hatchery even with really poor ocean survival more adults return then there parents.
This is no so in a wild population with really poor ocean survival they can and do fail to replace themselves.
That is why I support the idea of using hatchery brood and running it like the coho fishery on the C/V. You get the benefit of the increased abundance from the hatchery and you are not taking wild fish for brood.
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I don’t see that working, the quality of the hatchery fish would decline badly over time. The more times you spawn hatchery fish from hatcheries the worse off the offspring are. Not to mention good luck collecting that brood stock on the vedder lol. But if the people commenting actually fished vedder steelhead they would actually know it’s not a viable option.
I know it’s not as good as true wild spawners but I think a decent number of hatchery fish survive the gauntlet and spawn naturally. Being only once removed from wild stock I think they produce their own “wild” off spring. Which compensates for the wild brood fish taken. I think better protection of upper river spawning grounds as well as more habitat work is a better solution. The hatchery program produces a ton of extra fish to catch for sport anglers in literally the only steelhead fishery in the lower mainland with enough fish and holding water to produce good results all season long in all water conditions.
The guys who aren’t catching as many now as they were 10 years ago (John Werring) are just not adapting to the new higher pressured, more challenging vedder River steelhead fishery.
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I likes the idea from the video (on the Yakima river) of capturing and re-conditioning female kelts so they are likely to make a second spawning run - that is a real way to increase eggs in the system, which is one of the big limiting factors on numbers of steelhead. Anything you do is going to have an impact on genetics, but that seems like a smaller impact than hatchery programs.
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Here is a link to Bob Hooton's latest blog regarding Vedder steelhead
http://steelheadvoices.com/?p=1846&fbclid=IwAR2G8eYrcGq6oqS36oIkUKODtaios_RVnAaETu0xlxOd6v03M5GlyAdqaVA
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I likes the idea from the video (on the Yakima river) of capturing and re-conditioning female kelts so they are likely to make a second spawning run - that is a real way to increase eggs in the system, which is one of the big limiting factors on numbers of steelhead. Anything you do is going to have an impact on genetics, but that seems like a smaller impact than hatchery programs.
... that is a truly innovative idea that can be done in existing hatcheries!
As far as hatcheries increasing abundance - they certainly do but in many cases that's limited to a half dozen to a dozen generations at most. Hatcheries reduce survival % and in a period of low ocean survival generally the advantage diminishes or even disappears. At the same time hatcheries reduce diversity.
As long as the Chilliwack hatchery program continues to work why close it? At the same time it is likely far more important to protect and enhancement habitat in the upper valley than to increase hatchery production. It's a matter of what is the smartest place to place extra money.
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--each system needs a prescription with objectives clearly stated and a monitoring plan to measure if the plan is working or needs adjustment. There is no easy fix, especially when we cannot even agree on the desired outcomes.
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If everyone likes the brood take from the wild stock. What is the solution then to not killing of the early run.
Reduce fishing pressure in December, January and February?
Take brood later in the season? Or reduce it?
Or just do nothing and hope ocean survival rates improve?
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I likes the idea from the video (on the Yakima river) of capturing and re-conditioning female kelts so they are likely to make a second spawning run - that is a real way to increase eggs in the system, which is one of the big limiting factors on numbers of steelhead. Anything you do is going to have an impact on genetics, but that seems like a smaller impact than hatchery programs.
As Ralph suggests this is indeed do able at the Chilliwack River hatchery, just not sure if the cost involved would be worth it.
The females are air spawned, meaning although up to 500 residual eggs are often left in the body cavity, the fish is not killed. They are however seriously compromised in that they may be blind after spending up to 3 months in the dark, and they are subjected to weekly treatments of a known cancer causing agent ( formaldehyde) to combat bacterial/fungicide problems, possibly making their release a liability issue.
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Or just do nothing and hope ocean survival rates improve?
Book it.
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The Yakima recovery program did not include any traditional hatchery (brood stock takes, egg rearing etc) input. While it wasn't clear I guess spent females were captured and then reconditioned. When I said this could be done in hatcheries I meant the facilities were there. If brood stock aren't suitable then kelts would have to be captured...if that has a sufficient payoff.
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If everyone likes the brood take from the wild stock. What is the solution then to not killing of the early run.
Reduce fishing pressure in December, January and February?
Take brood later in the season? Or reduce it?
Or just do nothing and hope ocean survival rates improve?
Very few January fish are taken for brood stock. The guys taking the brood don’t catch them. Last year was the first time in a long time they had more then a half dozen fish before February. The best thing as far as restrictions go would be an earlier upper closure and stricter fish handling regulations.
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Here is a link to Bob Hooton's latest blog regarding Vedder steelhead
http://steelheadvoices.com/?p=1846&fbclid=IwAR2G8eYrcGq6oqS36oIkUKODtaios_RVnAaETu0xlxOd6v03M5GlyAdqaVA
He makes lots of good points but his lack of experience on this system is obvious with some of the comments. The early run steelhead move through the fishable portion faster then any fish the rest of the year. Especially with the typical December-January blowouts. Typically the fish that face the worst abuse as far as re capture goes are without a doubt the February and March fish. Pressure is high, water is typically low and I find they are way more likely to stage in bounds. These are also the fish that most of the brood stock is taken from. The brood being taken above boundary by the hatchery staff is honestly the biggest problem with this whole program and where most of the early stock would be mined from. The answer to that though is more/higher skilled volunteer brood anglers to capture fish in bounds throughout the season.
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That Hooton's memory of the river doesn't match your current experience possibly reflects just how much things have changed in over 50 years.
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That Hooton's memory of the river doesn't match your current experience possibly reflects just how much things have changed in over 50 years.
Bang on. So much has changed so drastically in BC steelhead fishing over the past 50 years it's incredible.
Vedder/Chilliwack had lots of fish in it by mid December. I can think of having very good double digit days fishing before Jan. 1.
By middle of March you were always catching a kelt or two if you fished above the Tamihi bridge.
Alloutte system was a mid November to end of January river.
Cheakamus river had steelhead in enough numbers to catch January 1. Used to always go there on that day with my dad and rarely was he ever skunked Jan. 1
On and on any oldtimer could speak about when talking about what once was to what is now.
One could also wonder just how good the Vedder/Chilliwack might be if there was no hatchery on it. For all one knows, it could be the cause of early wild steelhead to not be doing so well.
Early hatchery fish spawning with early wild fish could be the reason why there is now less early returning fish. Lots of studies showing fertility rates of hatchery steelhead to be no where near that of wild steelhead.
No one ever studied it to see if that happened. Maybe it did , maybe it didn't.
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Sure things have changed. Notice how all the fish in the 1962 picture had an adipose fin? Just think how many early wild fish were taken out of the spawning population by the derby alone. There was not even a hatchery until 1981. By that time there was so much of a decline that the hatchery was the only answer for saving these fish. Still is IMO.
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One could also wonder just how good the Vedder/Chilliwack might be if there was no hatchery on it. For all one knows, it could be the cause of early wild steelhead to not be doing so well.
Not sure you if you have noticed, but there are ZERO wild steelhead streams in BC that are running anything near historical numbers. Now that doesn't mean you still can't get off the beaten path and find some decent fishing, but it's terrible to what was there historically. Without the hatchery on the Vedder, there would be no steelhead fishery here in 2020. That is an undeniable fact.
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I think its time to get the ministry to do proper snorkel counts similier to the ones done in the early 2000's.http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r2210/chilliwack_adult_2001_1106349746675_e5c96f8eb41e4f4b8c1eb5150a80e5f7.pdf
Seems to be the only way to get fact based numbers. Far over due ( yes I know there was a float done last year and I believe there is a plan to due others however I do feel they are limited and nothing like the ones done previously.
This is what we as fisherman should be demanding before coming up with our own opinions to "stop hatchery production" "limit fishing days" "close the river" which do nothing in the way of finding the facts. I feel those suggestions and most I have read only hurt the ability to find the truths as a sweep under the rug kind of fix tot he problem.
Real money and effort needs to take place before anything else is accepted.
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r2210/chilliwack_adult_2001_1106349746675_e5c96f8eb41e4f4b8c1eb5150a80e5f7.pdf
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I have no confidence in the snorkel counts done currently. Talking to the guys saying they saw no fish in osborne, only a handful in limit and in low clear mid March.
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I have no confidence in the snorkel counts done currently. Talking to the guys saying they saw no fish in osborne, only a handful in limit and in low clear mid March.
They saw a lot more than that.
The current snorkel count is a five year project and this winter will be the second year of conducting the survey. I have a video on the overview of the project and a brief summary of year one's findings in a couple of weeks from now.
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Sure things have changed. Notice how all the fish in the 1962 picture had an adipose fin? Just think how many early wild fish were taken out of the spawning population by the derby alone. There was not even a hatchery until 1981. By that time there was so much of a decline that the hatchery was the only answer for saving these fish. Still is IMO.
Well there are very few fish at that same time currently without an adipose fin. The decline that happened before '81 had to due with ocean conditions and steelhead numbers went way up in the 80s regardless for rivers with hatchery enhancement or no. It was a high point for steelhead numbers.There is no way of knowing what steelhead populations would be in the Chilliwack if steelhead had not been enhanced.
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As a general rule, the earlier returning fish spawn higher in the watershed, and later fish in the lower part. The only reason to spend more time in the less-safe and food-scarce river is because they have farther to go to get to their particular spawning ground. The good spawning areas fill in from the top down and the whole run spawns around the same time. Notice how the early fish have smaller eggs then the later ones?
Return time has a strong genetic component, but what part of the river they return to is (I think) imprinted on them very early, either as alevin or fry. Any early fish raised in the hatchery will return early but they will return to (the area around) the hatchery. They would literally have to be lost to find spawning grounds higher in the watershed. Releasing them further down river confuses them even more. Early fish that try to spawn in the lower river would be out-competed by the later fish that are better fed and fresh from the ocean.
The answer is for the hatchery to separate the run into two components: early and late. Broodstock for the early component should be taken from hatchery returners so that the early wilds that are imprinted to return to the upper watershed spawning grounds can do their business. This would increase the number of early broodstock available to the hatchery and to the wild spawning grounds. The later run is easier because they naturally spawn closer to the hatchery. Obviously taking broodstock from wild fish hasn't impacted the later run as much.
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I have no confidence in the snorkel counts done currently. Talking to the guys saying they saw no fish in osborne, only a handful in limit and in low clear mid March.
Are you drunk ? Snorkel counts are the most accurate way to count fish in the river.
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Are you drunk ? Snorkel counts are the most accurate way to count fish in the river.
My apologies for hurting your feelings in the other thread. Sorry but when there’s 50+ fish visible with polarized glasses in a closed pool below a hatchery and they only see 8 from swim counts it makes me question the effectiveness of the snorkel counts on the chilliwack system. I think when viewing conditions are good the fish in all the big pools are hiding in the deepest parts of the run
Where seeing bottom is difficult. In the skinner water a lot of fish probably scram long before the snorkeler is even aware any fish was ever there.
PS my numbers I quoted were from
What the swimmers told me personally in those two particular pools. Not saying the only saw that many in the entire upper and mid river.
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Do some research
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2400.2011.00794.x
https://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_int/int_gtr307.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229978242_Snorkelling_as_a_method_for_assessing_spawning_stock_of_Atlantic_salmon_Salmo_salar
https://www.fws.gov/arcata/fisheries/reports/technical/2012%20TR%20Juvenile%20Chinook%20salmon%20snorkelling%20feasibility%20study.pdf
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Without the hatchery on the Vedder, there would be no steelhead fishery here in 2020. That is an undeniable fact.
how is this undeniable?
The province let's people fish steelhead in many place with returns that are less than 200 fish some places even less than 100 fish.
So there would still be a steelhead fishery , just not a retention fishery.
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Sorry but when there’s 50+ fish visible with polarized glasses in a closed pool below a hatchery and they only see 8 from swim counts it makes me question the effectiveness of the snorkel counts on the chilliwack system. I think when viewing conditions are good the fish in all the big pools are hiding in the deepest parts of the run
Where seeing bottom is difficult. In the skinner water a lot of fish probably scram long before the snorkeler is even aware any fish was ever there.
PS my numbers I quoted were from
What the swimmers told me personally in those two particular pools. Not saying the only saw that many in the entire upper and mid river.
I think this is why a tagging program of some type is very helpful when doing snorkel survey's.
one can easily take how many have been tagged vs how many were seen in a survey and come up with numbers that are reasonably close to what's out there.
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I think this is why a tagging program of some type is very helpful when doing snorkel survey's.
one can easily take how many have been tagged vs how many were seen in a survey and come up with numbers that are reasonably close to what's out there.
I completely agree.
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how is this undeniable?
The province let's people fish steelhead in many place with returns that are less than 200 fish some places even less than 100 fish.
So there would still be a steelhead fishery , just not a retention fishery.
How many people are fishing the Gold this winter? Historically it had one of the largest runs of wild winter steelhead anywhere in the province. If it was hatchery enhanced, there would probably like the Vedder, still be some fishing allowed on it. Without the hatchery, I'm confident the Vedder would be closed like the Gold is.
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how is this undeniable?
The province let's people fish steelhead in many place with returns that are less than 200 fish some places even less than 100 fish.
So there would still be a steelhead fishery , just not a retention fishery.
Also, the overall run size isn't what counts. I know of many small wild steelhead streams that historically only have 200 fish total...or less. But that is what the capacity of those systems are. I've had 10 fish plus days on them. Many of those streams are less than 2 hours from anywhere in the LM.
I won't tell you where they are, but I can tell you that pretty much all of them have gone from historically (50-200) down to (extinct to less than 20 fish). For those reasons, I no longer target them. I actually am surprised they are still open for catch and release.
As for the Gold, that river was consistent in having 3000-4000 fish each winter (correct me if my #s are off), but there's no way pressure is going to be allowed on a river like that when we're down to 200 fish.
I think the Chilliwack/Vedder has been as high as 8000-10000 in the best years (again....correct me if my #s are off), so if the Vedder went down to 400 fish.....with no hatchery....I guarantee you it would be closed to C&R fishing. Way too much pressure on that river for those numbers. The hatchery is the ONLY thing keeping us on that river right now....period.
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I think this is why a tagging program of some type is very helpful when doing snorkel survey's.
one can easily take how many have been tagged vs how many were seen in a survey and come up with numbers that are reasonably close to what's out there.
I believe the plan is to first confirm the logistical feasibility of completing a minimum of 4 snorkel floats per year. If after a few years the results are positive, then they will begin a tagging program to calibrate the snorkel so that results can be compared between floats and between years (the results of the tagging program can be applied retroactively to the first few years). Year 1 seems to have been mostly succesful - the only issue was too much clay runoff from a snowmelt on a warm day. A report should be available in the near future.
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the Gold River has certainly had it's ups and downs over the years though the winter returns are lower than ever it's certainly did not have 3000 to 4000 fish 'consistently'.
Last estimates for the C/V from the snorkel counts 15 to 20 years ago was more like a total of 4,000 with a split of about 50/50 for wild and hatchery fish. It may have been higher in the way back when.
While the Gold winter fish have declined to next to nothing this is not true for the summer fish which are doing ok. Maybe the summer fish benefit from lake (Muchalat) and canyon (The Heber) habitat that is not available to Gold river winter runs?
It was discussed in some of the PSF youtube videos (previously posted a link) that species such as coho & some chinook stocks that have yearlings that spend a winter or more in their home streams have a bottle neck survival pattern. The fry to parr survival bottleneck has been noted for the Thompson for example. Perhaps with excess logging and extreme weather patterns there is a loss of stream over wintering habitat
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in regards to the early run CV Steelhead, what if the hatchery still collects the early run brood stock but doesn't clip the smolts and release them from the upper river then just use hatchery Steelhead for hatchery fish brood stock?
thoughts anyone?
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in regards to the early run CV Steelhead, what if the hatchery still collects the early run brood stock but doesn't clip the smolts and release them from the upper river then just use hatchery Steelhead for hatchery fish brood stock?
thoughts anyone?
There is not enough early run wild stock left to take brood from. Here’s an example- I used to fish the Englishman river. Beautiful little river with a locked gate at the access rd to the river. I would ride my bike to the sweet spots on the river as it was a long walk. Often the only ones in there would be the broodstock catchers from Nanaimo as they had a key to the gate and would drive in. I would always chat with them. Then one day one of the fellas told me this will be the last yr we take broodstock from the river. This was in the mid 90s. I asked him why? He told me because there was not enough steelhead to take out of the system anymore. That was a very sad moment for me to hear that. Probably the same thing with Vedder early stock now.
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the Gold River has certainly had it's ups and downs over the years though the winter returns are lower than ever it's certainly did not have 3000 to 4000 fish 'consistently'.
Last estimates for the C/V from the snorkel counts 15 to 20 years ago was more like a total of 4,000 with a split of about 50/50 for wild and hatchery fish. It may have been higher in the way back when.
While the Gold winter fish have declined to next to nothing this is not true for the summer fish which are doing ok. Maybe the summer fish benefit from lake (Muchalat) and canyon (The Heber) habitat that is not available to Gold river winter runs?
It was discussed in some of the PSF youtube videos (previously posted a link) that species such as coho & some chinook stocks that have yearlings that spend a winter or more in their home streams have a bottle neck survival pattern. The fry to parr survival bottleneck has been noted for the Thompson for example. Perhaps with excess logging and extreme weather patterns there is a loss of stream over wintering habitat
As for your numbers are you talking escapement, or run size (the number of fish before any fisheries on that run..... and before they enter the mouth of the river)
I was talking run size...not escapement.
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in river estimates.
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So, 18 fish in the Wally Hall derby, 2 in the Dart and Tackle derby, 1 in the Boxing day derby, 2 wild fish tubed for broodstock ... are we concerned yet?
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So, 18 fish in the Wally Hall derby, 2 in the Dart and Tackle derby, 1 in the Boxing day derby, 2 wild fish tubed for broodstock ... are we concerned yet?
if you look around coast wide you will see that there is a serious ocean survival issue going on right now.
Many places in Washington state all the way up to Haida Gwaii are dismal for steelhead fishing.
I know a number of guys that cut their trip to Haida Gwaii short because of dismal fishing on decent water.
Pretty much all of Puget sound has been closed to all retention of hatchery steelhead so they can get enough brood stock back for the hatcheries. Many returns are down 60%-80%
Vancouver island has been dismal so far with places like the Stamp/Somass having a very poor return of winter steelhead.
Talk to guys that go and all the local streams like the Coquitlam, Allouette, etc have been poor overall.
It looks like in river drought conditions in 2015-2016 and warm ocean water (I am sure there are other factors) has caused a lack of survival for this years and most likely next years steelhead returns.
Might be time to sell a bit of steelhead tackle off while it still has some value.
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if you look around coast wide you will see that there is a serious ocean survival issue going on right now.
Many places in Washington state all the way up to Haida Gwaii are dismal for steelhead fishing.
I know a number of guys that cut their trip to Haida Gwaii short because of dismal fishing on decent water.
Pretty much all of Puget sound has been closed to all retention of hatchery steelhead so they can get enough brood stock back for the hatcheries. Many returns are down 60%-80%
Vancouver island has been dismal so far with places like the Stamp/Somass having a very poor return of winter steelhead.
Talk to guys that go and all the local streams like the Coquitlam, Allouette, etc have been poor overall.
It looks like in river drought conditions in 2015-2016 and warm ocean water (I am sure there are other factors) has caused a lack of survival for this years and most likely next years steelhead returns.
Might be time to sell a bit of steelhead tackle off while it still has some value.
Dave is well versed in steelheads offshore distribution as well as them being surface migrators making them especially susceptible to warm ocean predators. As well as climate change and the effects of the blob and how it disrupted the north pacific ecosystem.
What hes asking is does it make sense to bag on them as business as usual given their poor return. We shut down sockeye and chum fisheries because of ocean survival and poor returns but we do nothing for steelhead.
I think a decent compromise in low return years would be to use hatchery fish as brood. Then if ocean survivals improve go back and take wild fish. As well has providing some relief in the portion of the river that Avid Angler suggested.
im just having a hard time accepting the solution is to do nothing.
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Dave last time I talked to the brood guys I know (yesterday) they had tubed 2 pairs. Also that’s a poor example of fish numbers when there’s only a couple guys on the permit who actually regularly catch fish. December was epically poor this year. But Looking at my logs for the last 3 years. This January and last January I had about the same number of hookups. Two years ago was slightly poorer and three years ago was slightly better. Not saying things are great but honestly with how bad the rest of the coast is doing I’m reasonably impressed with how the vedder is faring in comparison so far. There’s honestly only a half dozen guys who have the angling skill as well as the time fished to honestly say how the fish numbers really are.
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The hatchery escapement reports from WDFW provide a pretty good indication of ocean survival since they release a known and relatively fixed number of steelhead smolt that don't spend much time in the river at all, so in-river conditions really shouldn't be a factor. Numbers locally - for the Nooksack river, 2018 had over 300 fish as of mid-January, 2019 had 42 fish, and 2020 has just 14 fish so far. These hatchery stock are early-winter fish, so most of them have already been spawned in the hatchery by now.
The subtle variations between the species of Oncorhynchus surprise me. Both steelhead and Chinook in the Chilliwack system and all the local rivers I know of are primarily 4-year fish, both go far out into the pacific to feed, and we saw fantastic returns of Chinook this year but steelhead are dismal. What is the difference in their food sources and migration patterns in the ocean that would cause this?
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Chinook are deep water bait fish feeders whereas steelhead stay shallower
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Fall whites also primarily stay in the strait of georgia.
The great chinook fishing may of been more a factor of in river conditions as well. I don't think the hatchery got as much ESSR as they normally do. Lower fraser Essr for chinook in 2018 was 13k in 2019 it was 3k.
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I believe it's important tackle shops continue to have competing steelhead derbies on the same rivers in years of very low returns. After all it's part of our Westcoast angling heritage!
[please don't shoot me] ;D
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I believe it's important tackle shops continue to have competing steelhead derbies on the same rivers in years of very low returns. After all it's part of our Westcoast angling heritage!
[please don't shoot me] ;D
the Province has zero desire to have any hatchery fish spawn with wild fish so it's in everyones best interest to cull all the hatchery fish possible.
Tackle shops having derby's is a fun way to promote that.
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How many people show up when the river or ocean is open to catch and release vs when it’s open for a kill fishery. Exponentially more people.
I get it steelhead have complicated live history’s and American hatcherys that have bread hatchery on hatchery have not had great success.
Is the solution to do nothing?
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How many people show up when the river or ocean is open to catch and release vs when it’s open for a kill fishery. Exponentially more people.
I get it steelhead have complicated live history’s and American hatcherys that have bread hatchery on hatchery have not had great success.
Is the solution to do nothing?
any ideas on what to do?
Hatchery steelhead are not the solution. Try and name a place that they have rebuilt a poor return.
The only thing to do is habitat work and make ways to have less stress on the fish which wil no doubt in the end mean more closures on rivers.
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How many people show up when the river or ocean is open to catch and release vs when it’s open for a kill fishery. Exponentially more people.
I get it steelhead have complicated live history’s and American hatcherys that have bread hatchery on hatchery have not had great success.
Is the solution to do nothing?
That isn’t the the case with steelhead fisheries. Again if you actually fished for them you would know that. The solution is habitat work
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any ideas on what to do?
Hatchery steelhead are not the solution. Try and name a place that they have rebuilt a poor return.
The only thing to do is habitat work and make ways to have less stress on the fish which wil no doubt in the end mean more closures on rivers.
Easy. The Cheakamus after the CN Rail Caustic Soda spill. Hatchery enhancement was done for two years and they filled in the gap of no fish for the major impacted years. It is now back to a wild system at low levels of abundance.
Habitat restoration only works to a degree. You can improve the early life history stages but is extremely hard and expensive to create suitable habitat for presmolts and smolts. Do you see any likelihood of any agency constructing 100 logjams on the Vedder that would survive the large water events? Then you will also have problems with the Navigable Waters Act as the rafting industry generally isn't a big fan of log jams in rivers they work on. Most of these solutions sound good on paper but are very problematic in the real world. If it was easy it would have been done already. This is not even considering the money that would be needed. And this is only one river, what about the rest of them?
If it was just a habitat issue then I will leave you with this to think about. The Keogh River on northern Vancouver Island is the Ministry of the Environments ( or whatever there called now) primary research river since the early 1980's. It is closed to steelhead fishing and has been for many, many years. It has had years of habitat work as well as stream fertilization and fish culture activities. The fish culture was discontinued years ago. If any stream should be benefiting from all of the habitat work as well as having any angler induced mortality eliminated it's the Keogh. So what's happening there? Last year was the worst return on record and previous years were not much better. That suggests to me that the big problem is in the ocean with low survivals. On streams that have juvenile downstream programs on them ( like the Cheakamus) the amount of steelhead smolts leaving each year is generally in the same range over a time line. That suggests that the stream is producing about the same amounts of smolts each year. What is different is ocean survival. And how do you fix that?
I have no likely solutions on how to fix this problem. Maybe that is why there is more comments on a ice fishing thread than there is on a steelhead discussion. Sad. I used to live to fish steelhead and I'm finding it harder and harder to get ramped up to chase the last few fish. Evidently the Province feels the same way as they have shown zero interest in looking for solutions or money to at least try and help.
Oh well, only 4 1/2 months until the ice comes off of the interior lakes.
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the Province has zero desire to have any hatchery fish spawn with wild fish so it's in everyones best interest to cull all the hatchery fish possible.
Tackle shops having derby's is a fun way to promote that.
the hatchery catch is the only hard metric on the extent of the problem.
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That isn’t the the case with steelhead fisheries. Again if you actually fished for them you would know that. The solution is habitat work
are you saying the derby has no influence on the amount of people that show up to fish? I find that hard to believe. Are you also saying that tubing a wild fish and then having a derby to kill off all of its offspring has no influence as well? Are you saying the tackle shops posting pictures on social media of the river and hatchery caught dime bright specimens are having no influence? I agree that steelhead fishers are unique that they will show up on high numbers for C@R but I still think bonking a fish having a derby and posting all over social media increases angler effort.
I do find it curious tho that some of the systems that have hatcheries like the stamp and vedder on them are generally doing better than most streams in south BC. Is that because they started off with a huge run of steelhead or did the hatchery somehow help? Did some of the hatchery offspring go and bread? did it boost abundance? Did it even out angling pressure on wild and hatchery fish in the system.
IDK but I do know one thing and I can see it on social media is the march fisheries below the crossing are going to become the new hot time to fish.
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are you saying the derby has no influence on the amount of people that show up to fish? I find that hard to believe. Are you also saying that tubing a wild fish and then having a derby to kill off all of its offspring has no influence as well? Are you saying the tackle shops posting pictures on social media of the river and hatchery caught dime bright specimens are having no influence? I agree that steelhead fishers are unique that they will show up on high numbers for C@R but I still think bonking a fish having a derby and posting all over social media increases angler effort.
I do find it curious tho that some of the systems that have hatcheries like the stamp and vedder on them are generally doing better than most streams in south BC. Is that because they started off with a huge run of steelhead or did the hatchery somehow help? Did some of the hatchery offspring go and bread? did it boost abundance? Did it even out angling pressure on wild and hatchery fish in the system.
IDK but I do know one thing and I can see it on social media is the march fisheries below the crossing are going to become the new hot time to fish.
The Fred’s derby pictures and reports have a huge influence on pressure. People see fish got caught and they think they have a better chance at catching one because fishing is good. If they posted people’s wild fish pictures during times of good angling you would see the same pressure increase. I don’t think it’s about blood thirsty anglers wanting to make a kill but rather they think they might actually have a shot and hooking something
The stamp winter run is not doing well at all actually. They have had issues with smolt die offs, confusing summer and winter runs and breeding them together. They haven’t had a good winter run in a long time. On the Chilliwack I do think that more hatchery fish get through and spawn then the numbers of wild brood taken. Even more so pre 2012 when there was less a lot less pressure. And I’m sure they do produce offspring. Whether that has helped or hurt returning fish numbers is up for debate and there’s really no way to prove it. The vedder is doing much better then most other streams and i personally wouldn’t change much in the way things are done with the hatchery program. The system has seen the same amount or more of wild fish this January as the last several years.
The people panicking, making assumptions and kicking and screaming for an overhaul are all people who either don’t fish, or can’t catch them even when there is a lot fish around. All the usual guys who know how to fish have been out catching the same amount of fish as normal.
The biggest change I’ve noticed in the last 8ish years is there has been huge changes (for the worse) in the lower river as far as holding water goes. So for the guys who just stick to fishing pro cured prawns and burnt roe that never fish above Wilson road aren’t experiencing the same success as in the good ol days because the fish just aren’t stopping down there. Their lack of success is as much to blame on a lack of adapting to the changes in the fishery as it does with lower numbers of fish.
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Is there not anything that could be done? Maybe banning removing a wild fish from the water? More COs patrols to promote handling techniques and and regulations. Not
Dfo officers but COs this fishery is their baby. What about more creel surveys to document what’s going on?
What about an actual method to measure in season abundance?
The success of top rods is hardly a measure of anything. The guys like you that are the best on the flow will find the fish. Something I hear you are quit successful at. The day you stop finding fish is probably the day we can declare there are non left
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No wild fish out of water would be a huge step in the right direction. It’s just so hard to say how much of the tougher fishing is due to less fish returning and now how much of it is more pressure with significantly less good holding water. The steelhead in the vedder are drastically changing there behaviour. I think there should be way more consultation with the guys who catch lots of fish. They are a much better indication of whats actually going on out there then the Masses of guys who just fluke there way into a couple bites a year. I also think there should be a couple of hand picked quality anglers that fish through the closed sections they swim count to give a better idea of just how effective the swim count is. I know last year of a 20+ fish day in one pool (some were stale and had definitely been around a while) in one spot the day after the snorkelers personally told me they counted 0 fish in that hole. I think I recall them saying they estimate they see about 30% of the fish. I personally think it is much lower then that in many different kinds of holding water.
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Historically the Stamp did not have much of a winter run. What produced the winter run was the fishways at Stamp Falls and the hatchery program. For a number of years the winter run has been so low many people who regularly fished it no longer do. I think most of the winter fish are taken in the Somass and return to the Sproat.
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Historically the Stamp did not have much of a winter run. What produced the winter run was the fishways at Stamp Falls and the hatchery program. For a number of years the winter run has been so low many people who regularly fished it no longer do. I think most of the winter fish are taken in the Somass and return to the Sproat.
Correct! The Sproat is doing much better. Last yrs winter run on the Stamp was only at 200 fish. The Stamp summer run is doing much better then the winter run. Same thing on the Heber which is a tributary of the Gold. Fall of 2017 the Stamp had 7500 return returning summers. Fall of 2018 only 750. Last years winters return on the Stamp was only at 200 fish. Hardly worth a trip over there for winters. :'(
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What about an actual method to measure in season abundance?
The province has " river guardians " doing angler surveys this winter season. I have run into them, answered all their question in hopes something good will come of it. Funny when talking with them they feel their presence is not always welcome by most steelhead anglers, mostly the younger generation?
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I think people get the opinion their trying to get things shut down. At least that’s the impression I’ve gotten from others. I haven’t seen them yet this year
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I think people get the opinion their trying to get things shut down. At least that’s the impression I’ve gotten from others. I haven’t seen them yet this year
You may be right, but my thought is, because I have seen it first hand for many years is that the new breed of steelheaders really only care about themselves. I would say in the last 10 years the spike in unfriendly encounters has risen 10 fold on the river. I will add I make an effort to not fish with others but am open to a friendly "hello" back when I offer one every time. I can only imagine how many more anglers a guardian dressed in full provincial garb gets the lowered head, when approached
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I will also add that atleast one of these guardians is a steelhead angller himself. I would have to think his efforts are not intended to get the fishery shut down.
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I’m not saying thats their intention I’ve just heard that opinion circulating. The new generation of steelheaders only care about people thinking their “gettin em” and that their the man. Plus getting pictures for their Instagram and Facebook accounts. Unfortunately a ton of fish get abused for these photo sessions. Because for these guys it’s not about the fish.
Which is why I think the Washington state wild fish handling rules need to come into effect here.
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Correct! The Sproat is doing much better. Last yrs winter run on the Stamp was only at 200 fish. The Stamp summer run is doing much better then the winter run. Same thing on the Heber which is a tributary of the Gold. Fall of 2017 the Stamp had 7500 return returning summers. Fall of 2018 only 750. Last years winters return on the Stamp was only at 200 fish. Hardly worth a trip over there for winters. :'(
big part on the number of summer runs that make it back to the Stamp is directly related to the number of opening for both commercial and FN's sockeye fishing.
Less opening equals more summer runs virtually every year. Lots of opening, not so many.
Not quite the indicator of how many are trying to come back.
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I am surprised with all of the concern and on-line chatter about the concerns of Steelhead, I have not yet seen any mention or discussion of the upcoming Steelhead Society meeting tomorrow in Langley. I have seen form members post links to very informative presentations that were filmed at past Steelhead Society meetings, and many positive comments about the content and information found in the presentations.
I will be attending the meeting tomorrow.
It is at 10:00 in Langley:
http://www.steelheadsociety.org/news
Kinda sad and a bit of a mystery that there are no current posts about this upcoming event on any of the forums, or even mention in this thread.
Recently, I posted about an opportunity to see a video from the Watershed Society on the plight of the Fraser River.
As someone who attended this movie presentation, I can safely say the number of members from this forum who attended were 0.
As a member of the Steelhead society, I have been involved in the past in river clean-ups, bank stabilization, and habitat restoration.
As I see it, there are many members who are content to gripe, complain, be angry, and let lots of people on a public forum know about their thoughts and feelings. There are few of these same people who are willing to look to try to do something about it.
Dano
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Dan, we are concerned about steelhead fishing opportunities, not steelhead themselves. ;D
As I see it, there are many members who are content to gripe, complain, be angry, and let lots of people on a public forum know about their thoughts and feelings. There are few of these same people who are willing to look to try to do something about it.
Dano
yep.
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As I see it, there are many members who are content to gripe, complain, be angry, and let lots of people on a public forum know about their thoughts and feelings. There are few of these same people who are willing to look to try to do something about it.
Dano
This forum is indeed a platform for people to bitch and complain, but it's also a good place for thoughts to be presented. In this particular thread there have been several good ideas that I hope will be considered at the management level. For sure, support the SSBC and hopefully they will be a part of the solution.
In fairness to your surprise no one from this forum showed up at your presentation, I'm pretty sure it's been available on line for months.
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In fairness to your surprise no one from this forum showed up at your presentation, I'm pretty sure it's been available on line for months.
Yes sir.
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I am surprised with all of the concern and on-line chatter about the concerns of Steelhead, I have not yet seen any mention or discussion of the upcoming Steelhead Society meeting tomorrow in Langley. I have seen form members post links to very informative presentations that were filmed at past Steelhead Society meetings, and many positive comments about the content and information found in the presentations.
I will be attending the meeting tomorrow.
It is at 10:00 in Langley:
http://www.steelheadsociety.org/news
Kinda sad and a bit of a mystery that there are no current posts about this upcoming event on any of the forums, or even mention in this thread.
Recently, I posted about an opportunity to see a video from the Watershed Society on the plight of the Fraser River.
As someone who attended this movie presentation, I can safely say the number of members from this forum who attended were 0.
As a member of the Steelhead society, I have been involved in the past in river clean-ups, bank stabilization, and habitat restoration.
As I see it, there are many members who are content to gripe, complain, be angry, and let lots of people on a public forum know about their thoughts and feelings. There are few of these same people who are willing to look to try to do something about it.
Dano
Don’t assume no one on this board will not be at the ssbc meeting tomorrow just because they don’t talk about here.
Those that have an interest to learn and do something will be there.
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I know certain members of this forum will attend the Steelhead society meeting tomorrow.
If members of FishingWithRod or individuals reading are not aware, all who wish to come and become informed and new members are welcome.
"In fairness to your surprise no one from this forum showed up at your presentation, I'm pretty sure it's been available on line for months."
While this may be true, I invited people to come to the presentation, as the producers of the video, those involved in the production, as well as some key people who appeared in the video were in attendance. This group was looking for an interactive presentation, and, as we learned at the showing, the team involved in the production was looking for feedback, and wishes to turn this into a three part production with follow up films and information.
My impression was as a younger team of youth who are not experts on the system, they were looking for input as to what could be included in future films to be informative and beneficial. I would guesstimate there may have been 40 people in attendance. As someone who is near the age of 50, I noted the majority of people in attendance were likely older than me.
While I know the Fraser and travel and fish it to a degree, I would not call myself an expert. As someone who used to visit Herrling Island a lot 25 years ago and fish various species, I was alarmed to learn the soft paper company who held this island and worked with the provincial government to have this as an "experimental island" for tree species for the purpose of pulp and paper had sold it. The new stakeholders have been cutting down the trees, with the purpose of building the bridge over to the island, diking it, and turning the island into a cranberry or blueberry producing plot of land.
They covered Herrling Island, and one other large island in the Fraser that is being explored for exploitation and resource extraction in the form of "farming". As someone who understands the Fraser and get the idea of 100 year flood cycles, with one year out of a hundred being the "major flood cycle year", where all major sand bars and islands in the Fraser are subject to erosion, destruction and disappearing, this seems like bad long term planning to me. If looking for evidence and explanation as to the potential for damage as to the flood of a 100 year flood cycle, look up the Fraser Flood of 1948. I have read some speculation that the 1948 flood is one of the two possible "50 year floods" in the flood cycle, and the big one is still yet to come. If not sure as to what this means, keep in mid that "floods in the cycle" are completely random and not predictable as to when they will occur.
As someone with limited time and eperience on the Fraser, I suggested to them they should look to do a follow up film on Nicolman Slough and the environmental degradation that has taken place on Strawberry Island. For anyone who visits this area, you would have been able to see in the past years that Strawberry Island (located east of the slough, upriver on the Fraser), had been covered in Cottonwood trees owned by Scott Paper and grown for the purpose of turning into toilet paper at their New West plant. Suddenly, within a one year period, all the Cottonwoods on the island were cut down and left in slash piles that have never been dealt with. The island was basically clear cut and the slash left behind. The reason given was the trees were infested with disease. Some research will establish that cottonwoods are resilient to disease, we are talking about toilet paper and paper towel, and the timing co-insides with a massive decrease in the value of softwood for the purpose of pulp timber. I guess the question would be if the trees were clear cut and left in giant slash piles, why has nothing been done to re-plant or re-habilitate the land which was destroyed. The team at the film seemed receptive to my feedback and said this could possibly be feedback for a future focus. Had others been in attendance with greater experience and knowledge, maybe other themes and ideas for the crew to follow up on could have been generated.
If you come out tomorrow to the Steelhead society function, check in and say hi.
:)
Dano
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The other island is Carey Island.
I should have placed another link for those to view and make their own conclusions on.
Here is the link here:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/dfo-investigating-critical-fish-habitat-destruction-in-b-c-s-heart-of-the-fraser-1.4950835
For what we know, destruction of such habitat is having an effect of the Fraser River ecosystem as a whole, and must have an impact on Steelhead species in some way or another. Health of the system is all interconnected in one way or another, whether we understand it or not.
Dano