Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: milo on October 16, 2019, 10:37:02 AM

Title: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 16, 2019, 10:37:02 AM
Seeing so many chinook does lying on the bottom of the Vedder with their bellies slit open made me wonder...
Please be honest about it. It's an anonymous poll.

Feel free to discuss.



Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: DRP79 on October 16, 2019, 10:42:34 AM
I will take a fish for roe but I do not waste the fish. If it's not good table fare for me, it gets cooked up for my dog.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: BladeKid on October 16, 2019, 01:02:11 PM
There is probably going to be a bias here with people voting No, because they are the ones who feel passionate about this issue and will therefore be more inclined to vote.

While there is an argument to be made for removing hatchery fish in order to help maintain the genetics of the wild population (i.e. reducing the amount of domesticated genes entering into the spawning population), I feel that this is not a good enough reason to kill a hatchery fish just for its roe for many other reasons (noting that this is only possible where hatcheries adipose clip their releases). Of course, I doubt that this has ever been a primary rationale for such actions.

BK
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: Robert_G on October 16, 2019, 01:37:36 PM
There is almost always a guy or 2 from certain nationalities that are more than willing to take my coloured white spring 'after' I remove the roe.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: Hike_and_fish on October 16, 2019, 02:24:07 PM
If my back is up against the wall and it's close to the end of Salmon season and I dont have Chum roe for Steelhead,  I will retain a nasty old Chum. I will plant my tomatoes on top of Chunks of Chum and grow a super tomato plant. I had over 120 tomatoes last year on 4 plants thanks to salmon heads. Nothing goes to waste. I save the guts as well. I plant my herbs on top of them.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 16, 2019, 02:41:53 PM
There is almost always a guy or 2 from certain nationalities that are more than willing to take my coloured white spring 'after' I remove the roe.

And that's perfectly fine. The fish is not being wasted in that case.
But what about those times when the guys willing to take your dark fish are not around?
Do you refrain from killing the fish or you just do it anyway?

If my back is up against the wall and it's close to the end of Salmon season and I dont have Chum roe for Steelhead,  I will retain a nasty old Chum. I will plant my tomatoes on top of Chunks of Chum and grow a super tomato plant. I had over 120 tomatoes last year on 4 plants thanks to salmon heads. Nothing goes to waste. I save the guts as well. I plant my herbs on top of them.

That's awesome!!! :D
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: Dubs604 on October 16, 2019, 03:00:51 PM
If my back is up against the wall and it's close to the end of Salmon season and I dont have Chum roe for Steelhead,  I will retain a nasty old Chum. I will plant my tomatoes on top of Chunks of Chum and grow a super tomato plant. I had over 120 tomatoes last year on 4 plants thanks to salmon heads. Nothing goes to waste. I save the guts as well. I plant my herbs on top of them.

I bury all of my fish skeletons in the garden as well.  My wife's kale, tomatoes and zucchini were excellent this year.

My late grandfather and uncle used to bury all of their fish skeletons in their rose gardens for the same reason.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: kanuckle head on October 16, 2019, 03:12:31 PM
I use all of the fish except for the bones and fins. My dog gets the ones iffy ones for table fare, if I fillet the for eats I keep the skeletons, heads and guts for crab/prawn bait
In the salt chuck I'm not choosy on bucks or does but on the river I try to target females for the roe and do not waste the carcass
Very sad when I see fish discarded and wasted in this way 
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on October 16, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
we should go back to the old regs when it was illegal to use salmon roe for bait. Only in the US and Canada can roe be used for bait.

Worms, prawn etc that's fine. Roe, no!
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 16, 2019, 05:28:19 PM
we should go back to the old regs when it was illegal to use salmon roe for bait. Only in the US and Canada can roe be used for bait.

Worms, prawn etc that's fine. Roe, no!

Seeing that I only fish artificials, I wholeheartedly agree.
But being the easiest and most productive way to catch salmon and having been relentlessly popularized by the Internet, it will be very hard to put that cured roe genie back in the bottle. In fact, from what I observed, many people on the flow these days don't even try fishing with anything else. They just have their roe boxes attached to their wader belts and that's all they use all day. ???
When I asked one of them why he doesn't try to put on a jig or a blade, he replied: "I can't be bothered. If coho don't take my roe, they won't take anything". Seriously?

I guess catching salmon with roe is addictive because it's pleasure inducing (the takes can be so savage!).
But maybe each individual angler's evolution will bring them to the point where they will challenge themselves and say: OK, I know I can catch salmon with roe - no big deal. Let's try something different now.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on October 16, 2019, 05:41:23 PM
While not the use of roe specifically but the attitude is one reason why we have the salmon abundance challenges and the quality angling issues we currently have. It's, screw it all I just want my fish! I want to bulk up my freezer.

Milo you've named one good reason to ban roe - the theft of it from fish anglers others don't want. There are others not the least of which is it's a vector for disease transmission.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: Hike_and_fish on October 16, 2019, 06:08:04 PM
I am on board with a roe ban. I know of some studies that have been done linking the toxic effects of cured roe on resident fish. I do fish artificial baits ( worms and beads ) for Steelhead more often than not. I just dont like it when I lose softbeads. More plastic gone out to sea.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: clarki on October 16, 2019, 07:44:55 PM
Ethical considerations aside, is it illegal (contrary to any regulations) to kill a chinook, take the roe and leave the carcass on the bank?

Provided the fish was harvested in a legal manner and was recorded on the angler's license, and the angler has not exceeded their daily or annual maximums, is it illegal?
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: wildmanyeah on October 16, 2019, 07:56:44 PM
The real questions should be how many people marked a Chinook on their licence that the killed and discarded but only kept the roe.

I bet not many
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 16, 2019, 08:01:40 PM
Ethical considerations aside, is it illegal (contrary to any regulations) to kill a chinook, take the roe and leave the carcass on the bank?

Provided the fish was harvested in a legal manner and was recorded on the angler's license, and the angler has not exceeded their daily or annual maximums, is it illegal?

According to the regs, you are not allowed to carry the roe separated from the fish it came from, unless it is store-bought with an invoice to prove it was legally sold to you, and even then, you can carry no more than a kilo at a time.
So yes, killing the spring doe, removing the roe, and not taking the carcass with you IS ILLEGAL.

Edited to add:
Here's the exact text from the regs:

You must not have more than 1 kg of
roe (fish eggs) in your possession for use
as bait unless the roe was obtained from a
commercial source that lawfully obtained
that roe, or you have in your possession
the freshly dressed fish from which the
roe in excess of 1 kg was taken. Carry a
receipt with you if you purchased roe from
a commercial source.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on October 16, 2019, 08:45:49 PM
It is unlawful to:

Waste the fish you catch. If your fish is not suitable for eating or if possession is illegal because of quotas, size limits or closed seasons,
return the fish quickly and gently to the water.

Provincial Synopsis pg.9

Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: clarki on October 16, 2019, 08:53:44 PM
I'm not so sure, Milo. Those are the BC fishing regulations for fish and waters that fall under the province's jurisdiction.

The provincial fishing synopsis says on page 90 (and I paraphrase cuz I can't copy from a .pdf) that management of salmon in freshwater is the responsibility of DFO and to refer to http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/first-premiere-eng.html#unlawfulactions where there is no mention of what is the legal/illegal use of a legally harvested fish.

If the provincial regulation you cited does apply to salmon roe, the regulation speaks to bait. What if the skeins of fresh roe in my vest are for personal consumption?

I'm not trying to play silly bugger, and don't get me wrong, I think it is unethical to harvest a fish just for the roe...but is it illegal to do so?

Edit: Yes, Ralph, that section is frequently cited, but per my comments above, it's not readily clear to me that that applies to salmon.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: wildmanyeah on October 16, 2019, 09:24:34 PM
Anything in here

https://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/docs/sfg-gps-2019-eng.pdf
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 16, 2019, 09:38:44 PM
Clarky, you raise a good point. I have no irrefutable answer to your question anymore. I was under the impression that all non-tidal provincial fisheries (including salmon), are subject to Provincial regs. I would think provincial rules regarding roe would apply to non-tidal salmon since recreational anglers' dealings with salmon roe is not regulated by DFO. Please don't quote me on this, I'm not sure, I'm only assuming.
As with everything, I'd err on the side of caution and take the whole bloody fish with me, registered in my license, until I get home. I think any CO worth his salt would ticket you if you were found with fresh roe on you without the fish that provided for it.
We are anglers, we angle for fish, not for roe. The roe should only be a welcome bonus, not the objective of our activity.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: Knnn on October 16, 2019, 09:52:26 PM
After seeing many dozens of chum does with slit bellies in a pile at the Stave, I cannot bring myself to use roe.  Prawns, worms yes, but not roe.  I certainly don't judge others who use a very effective bait

My countryman in the UK are appalled when they hear we can use roe here.  I would prefer to see a ban on using roe.

Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: clarki on October 16, 2019, 10:43:01 PM
We are anglers, we angle for fish, not for roe. The roe should only be a welcome bonus, not the objective of our activity.
Agreed. Cheers
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: Hike_and_fish on October 17, 2019, 06:10:00 AM
After seeing many dozens of chum does with slit bellies in a pile at the Stave, I cannot bring myself to use roe.  Prawns, worms yes, but not roe.  I certainly don't judge others who use a very effective bait

My countryman in the UK are appalled when they hear we can use roe here.  I would prefer to see a ban on using roe.

The end result is the same. Something that was once alive is now dead just for bait. I fail to see the difference between a dead prawn or a dead salmon. It's like saying "I drive a hybrid and not a 5.7L V8 so I'm better than everyone else". It makes no sense at all. In the end you're still polluting.

Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on October 17, 2019, 07:25:38 AM
Clarki, all the Provincial Regulations apply to salmon. In almost every case the regulations are also synchronized in the Federal Fisheries Act Regulations. That is done so the question of jurisdiction can't be raised as a possible defense in court.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on October 17, 2019, 07:38:46 AM
Anything in here

https://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/docs/sfg-gps-2019-eng.pdf

pg 19: The use of natural bait has been linked to infections in fish. If you carry fish and
fish products, including roe, from one area to another, you could be transferring
disease-causing agents that may harm local fish.

To keep fish stocks safe, donít transfer untreated roe or other fish products from
one body of water to another.

pg 28: When sport fishing, you may not waste any fish thatís suitable for human consumption.

Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: banx on October 17, 2019, 08:10:09 AM
having spent most of my life fishing for salmon in kitimat, there was a bait ban for the entire salmon season, and the use of bait was allowed usually sept 1st. That's pretty much peak/end of coho season, as all the other species have spawned already. You learned to catch fish with lures or artificials.  I did not use bait for steelhead either. No one I fished with switched to roe on sept 1st. well, only this joao from terrace who I worked with.  But he was a Terracite, so I digress....... ;D

I believe there should be a complete ban on all bait in rivers in the province. All of them.  You seriously don't need it, especially with how ridiculously effective beads are now.  Even the plastics used in worms are so life like now, unlike the rigid one's you'd get in the 90's.

stories of gutted fish laying on the river bed is disgusting and an indicator at the level of greed here in the lower mainland.  In this day in age of user groups blaming each other for waste, this type of behaviour does not promote 'sport fishing'.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 17, 2019, 08:14:42 AM
having spent most of my life fishing for salmon in kitimat, there was a bait ban for the entire salmon season, and the use of bait was allowed usually sept 1st. That's pretty much peak/end of coho season, as all the other species have spawned already. You learned to catch fish with lures or artificials.  I did not use bait for steelhead either. No one I fished with switched to roe on sept 1st. well, only this joao from terrace who I worked with.  But he was a Terracite, so I digress....... ;D

I believe there should be a complete ban on all bait in rivers in the province. All of them.  You seriously don't need it, especially with how ridiculously effective beads are now.  Even the plastics used in worms are so life like now, unlike the rigid one's you'd get in the 90's.

stories of gutted fish laying on the river bed is disgusting and an indicator at the level of greed here in the lower mainland.  In this day in age of user groups blaming each other for waste, this type of behaviour does not promote 'sport fishing'.

Where is the "like" button?

Awesome post, banx.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on October 17, 2019, 08:26:34 AM
Where is the "like" button?

Awesome post, banx.
+1...

5 stars Banx!
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: poper on October 17, 2019, 11:47:09 AM
Is this a try and get bait banned thread?
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: CohoJake on October 17, 2019, 12:12:26 PM
While I would agree with a ban on curing products that are toxic to resident fish (like the have done in Oregon), I am strongly opposed to a bait ban for salmon fishing in this system.  Float fishing roe is the simplest way for the masses to catch fish without flossing/snagging.  Take that away and you will see longer leaders and more acceptance of flossing as the only way to catch these fish.

Also, banning roe as bait on the c/v would in no way eliminate the targeting of fish only for the roe - just look at the commercial chum fishery in the Fraser.  Not only would anglers continue to covet the roe for other fisheries, but there is a sizable population (myself included) that prizes salmon roe for caviar/sushi uses.  My wife always demands that I set aside a couple of skeins of large eggs every season for this purpose. 
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on October 17, 2019, 12:55:22 PM
blades are probably easier to use and just about as effective.Properly rigged the same is true for yarn. A ban would not preclude anyone keeping roe for their own consumption.

BTW when I suggested a roe ban, I didn't expect a single person to agree with it.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: wildmanyeah on October 17, 2019, 01:56:14 PM
I took my spinning trout rod that has 15 pound test. I tired a gibbs croc to the end of it. I tossed it into a bank and I caught some coho.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 17, 2019, 02:28:00 PM

Is this a try and get bait banned thread?

Not at all. Unless you make it to be.
It's more of a "How many people waste a doe only for the roe?"

There are passionate responses, but no hidden agenda here.
Don't be paranoid.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: clarki on October 17, 2019, 03:42:36 PM
Clarki, all the Provincial Regulations apply to salmon. In almost every case the regulations are also synchronized in the Federal Fisheries Act Regulations. That is done so the question of jurisdiction can't be raised as a possible defense in court.
I have not been unknown to abandon an untenable position.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: wildmanyeah on October 17, 2019, 04:21:01 PM
Unfortunately the only way DFO has to deal with a person in possession of to much roe is an apprentice notice.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on October 17, 2019, 04:30:02 PM
I have not been unknown to abandon an untenable position.

What an elegant way to concede you were wrong! I will include it in my linguistic arsenal.  :D
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: 243Pete on October 19, 2019, 01:53:55 PM
To kill a fish just for roe and to dispose of the rest in a fashion that basically deems it a waste is terrible. My saying is that one day karma will bite them where it should and what ever terrible thing happens to these people will be deemed fair and appropriate.
As for roe, I've been sharing a lot with friends and friends who bring new anglers with them, a friend got two very generous sized bucks from the mid river this season on spring roe I gave him and he was super happy.
So far I've let go of so many springs (a LOT of does) that people have even begged me to keep it for them or even question "Why?" Why keep what I won't use and what I don't need?
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: ae_9 on November 02, 2019, 08:13:16 AM
I will take a fish for roe but I do not waste the fish. If it's not good table fare for me, it gets cooked up for my dog.

How do you make sure all the bones are out ?
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: DRP79 on November 02, 2019, 09:15:29 AM
I flake it apart before putting it in her bowl to get any I missed.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: FlyFishin Magician on November 02, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
OK guys.  How about this scenario. You are flyfishing for coho in a spot where everyone else is flyfishing.  Other fishers catch their doe, and leave the roe behind or offer it to you and you decide to take the roe for later use (less assume that you got less than a kg of donated roe).  Legal issues aside, do you see a problem with this?
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: bobby b on November 02, 2019, 10:12:53 AM
I have indeed seen a few carcasses that were just killed for roe. Such a waste.

I will keep roe when I need it, and will give it(roe) away if asked when I feel I don't need it.

But, I have noticed more this season people asking me not just for the roe but asking for my fish!  A few times now I have been getting ready to release a doe, and have had someone run over and ask 'can I have your fish'!!!

The answer is always no ...  but now I wonder if they just wanted the roe!
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on November 02, 2019, 10:54:31 PM
I have indeed seen a few carcasses that were just killed for roe. Such a waste.

I will keep roe when I need it, and will give it(roe) away if asked when I feel I don't need it.

But, I have noticed more this season people asking me not just for the roe but asking for my fish!  A few times now I have been getting ready to release a doe, and have had someone run over and ask 'can I have your fish'!!!

The answer is always no ...  but now I wonder if they just wanted the roe!

Far too many carcasses are in the river of fish that were killed only for roe. I even saw a couple of chum carcasses with their bellies cut open.
The appetite for roe for fishing purposes has spiralled put of control.
It seems on some of my weekend outings that 90% of anglers on the water don't fish with anything else but roe?!
I'd be happy to see a blanket roe ban province wide at least for one full salmon cycle or until we see the extent of the contraction of salmon numbers.
That would also give time to those who can't catch salmon without roe to try out and learn other methods.

Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on November 03, 2019, 08:23:13 AM
I don't see a problem from picking up discarded roe or roe that is offered to you by someone who doesn't use it.

As for people asking for your fish - well if the fish is legal to keep, any fish you give them, counts as part of your daily retention limit. If it's not legal to keep tell them so.

FWIW I have watched anglers release 2 or even 3 chrome male springs and keep a doe in similar condition. Nothing wrong with that either but if a male is given away that's it for retention of fish over the 62cm limit.

Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: ae_9 on November 06, 2019, 05:06:28 PM
I would personally never waste a fish for the roe. Hate seeing it. But then again nothing stopping them from throwing it out in the trash can at home.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: AaronWilde on November 06, 2019, 05:59:45 PM
People actually keep the meat?? 
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: spoiler on November 06, 2019, 06:53:55 PM
What you guys are forgetting is that a lot of people are getting the roe to eat rather than bait.
In a lot of cultures salmon roe or salmon caviar is treasured.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on November 07, 2019, 04:58:46 PM
I was able to watch a Fisheries person examining, sampling and checking dead springs on another FV river. For each female they slit the belly on the lower flank to check if the fish was spawned out. I asked if they knew this slitting of the belly to check if the specimen had spawned was also done during checks on the  on the Vedder/Chilliwack. Response was yes that is the procedure followed though they personally had not done this work on the V/C.

Perhaps that explains the large number of dead females with slit bellies and with no eggs present, on the V/C?
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: milo on November 11, 2019, 06:22:41 PM
I was able to watch a Fisheries person examining, sampling and checking dead springs on another FV river. For each female they slit the belly on the lower flank to check if the fish was spawned out. I asked if they knew this slitting of the belly to check if the specimen had spawned was also done during checks on the  on the Vedder/Chilliwack. Response was yes that is the procedure followed though they personally had not done this work on the V/C.

Perhaps that explains the large number of dead females with slit bellies and with no eggs present, on the V/C?

I hope so Ralph. I sure hope so.
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: CohoJake on November 12, 2019, 08:12:15 AM
I hope so Ralph. I sure hope so.

I wonder also if some of these could be fish that were spawned in the hatchery and carcass dumped in the river?
Title: Re: Wasting fish only for roe
Post by: RalphH on November 12, 2019, 08:21:05 AM
Should have mentioned:

Dead fish that are counted and subject to a fisheries examination are also cut in 2 pieces, usually in half though large ones will often just have the section from the adipose to the tail severed. Both pieces are left on the river.