Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: chris gadsden on January 05, 2019, 11:55:42 AM

Title: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: chris gadsden on January 05, 2019, 11:55:42 AM
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-midwives-of-the-river-the-volunteers-who-keep-the-salmon-coming-back/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=Referrer%3A+Social+Network+%2F+Media&utm_campaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links&fbclid=IwAR2holiJtlxeBs2eLSwCVjjxxfAS6iwhqoSAY6E-aSBrmZAUS5MiQfefnC8
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: arimaBOATER on January 05, 2019, 03:10:54 PM
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-midwives-of-the-river-the-volunteers-who-keep-the-salmon-coming-back/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=Referrer%3A+Social+Network+%2F+Media&utm_campaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links&fbclid=IwAR2holiJtlxeBs2eLSwCVjjxxfAS6iwhqoSAY6E-aSBrmZAUS5MiQfefnC8
Remember Rod mentioning many moons ago that getting the numbers up ( hatchery fish ) & released is a good step but the fry need good areas to grow...survival & return to spawn (?)
Think more & more hatcheries should be put on streams/river systems to Hope & beyond. Definately a lot more in the LML.
Gotta like the background of the volunteers in story. Lawyer,exec.,prof.,ship capt. etc...( no politician though ) ...
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: Hike_and_fish on January 05, 2019, 04:30:27 PM
Just start killing the seal already. It's getting ridiculous
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 05, 2019, 05:21:40 PM
I am at a loss, can someone explain to me how increasing production = rebuilding.  Even if they make it all the way back, they aren't allowed in a lot of cases to spawn in the wild. They are packaged up in ESSR fisheries.


Just a bit of a tid bit I saw

http://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/FOPO/report-18/page-72#16

Prey Availability
In David Bain’s view, as a long-term measure to ensure prey availability for SRKWs, “repairing habitat is important to spawning and rearing juvenile salmon. The vegetation around streams and how we manage water flows in streams are important to salmon survival.”[85] Immediate measures to improve prey availability include fishery restrictions. Lance Barrett-Lennard stressed that “closing sport fishing on the whales' foraging hot spots” is critical to “preserve for the whales the adult fish that have made it through a gauntlet of perils as they approach their spawning rivers and move into the whales' key foraging areas.”[86]

The committee recommends:

Recommendation 14

That Fisheries and Oceans Canada increase efforts to rebuild the Chinook salmon stocks, using all available options.

Regarding the low abundance of Chinook salmon, David Bain pointed out that SRKWs also face competition from other predators such as seals and sea lions.[87] In his view:

human modification of the habitat and timing of runs has enabled pinnipeds to be more effective predators than they used to be. Also, the decline of transient killer whales that feed on pinnipeds has made a population boom in pinnipeds possible. While transients are catching up and will eventually put the ecosystem back in balance, it's an issue we need to pay attention to.
David Bain added that specific groups of seals will “park at river mouths and eat smolts that are going out to sea. That's encouraged to some degree by humans, because we'll do hatchery releases that bring large numbers of smolts into a small area at the same time.”[88] Therefore, Martin Paish called for a “targeted, science-based predator control program” as an immediate measure to improve prey availability which goes beyond fishery restrictions.[89]

Considering the above evidence, the committee recommends:

Recommendation 15

That Fisheries and Oceans Canada increase the availability of preferred prey through the establishment of a science and local/traditional knowledge-based, targeted predator control program to reduce the pinniped predation around estuary and river environments, and other impacted systems.

To rebuild the vulnerable Chinook salmon stocks in the long term, fish hatcheries were suggested as an avenue that DFO should increase focus on. Carol Schmitt indicated that Omega Pacific Hatchery’s facilities and knowledge in Chinook stock enhancement is significantly underutilized by DFO. She also mentioned that Omega Pacific Hatchery’s one-year old stream‑type (S1) smolts have a track record of higher marine survival rates compared to DFO’s S0 type.[90] Martin Paish noted that “in the 1990s, when the southern resident killer whales were demonstrating increases in their population, we produced 15 million Chinook in the Fraser River through hatchery production; now we're producing three.”[91]

In contrast, the committee heard from David Bain that hatcheries are:

A double-edged sword for killer whales. Ideally, they would serve as lifeboats where depleted runs could be supported, and then the hatchery could be phased out once wild runs were restored. However, they have become long-term sources of fish for humans, and as a result, the focus has been on numbers rather than body size. We've seen a significant decline in the size of chinook salmon as a result of increasing reliance on hatcheries.[92]
The committee recommends:

Recommendation 16

That Fisheries and Oceans Canada increase the availability of preferred prey by expanding the Salmonid Enhancement Program to include hatcheries utilizing alternative methods of Chinook production, including the rearing of S1 Chinook and the utilization of sea pen rearing techniques.

A double-edged sword for killer whales. Ideally, they would serve as lifeboats where depleted runs could be supported, and then the hatchery could be phased out once wild runs were restored. However, they have become long-term sources of fish for humans, and as a result, the focus has been on numbers rather than body size. We've seen a significant decline in the size of chinook salmon as a result of increasing reliance on hatcheries.[92]
The committee recommends:

Recommendation 16

That Fisheries and Oceans Canada increase the availability of preferred prey by expanding the Salmonid Enhancement Program to include hatcheries utilizing alternative methods of Chinook production, including the rearing of S1 Chinook and the utilization of sea pen rearing techniques.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: BBarley on January 05, 2019, 09:30:24 PM
Just start killing the seal already. It's getting ridiculous

Or just let the whales starve.........
 
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: sumasriver on January 05, 2019, 09:56:28 PM
Why don't the Southern orcas eat more seal instead of Chinook ?
Is hunting seal much more calorie intensive ?
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 05, 2019, 10:20:32 PM
Why don't the Southern orcas eat more seal instead of Chinook ?
Is hunting seal much more calorie intensive ?
they basically only eat chinook. Northern residents will eat some other salmon species but both are fish eaters. Transient whales, more properly called Biggs Killer Whales eat only seal mammals. The two resident populations are thought to be genetically separated from Biggs whales by 500,000 years. They don't intermingle in the wild.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 06, 2019, 08:24:18 AM
I'll post this again though the link has been provided.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zz8aEAg7dI&feature=youtu.be

Dr Trites says the Orcas examined while emaciated were in that condition due to other serious illness. While it's true the low numbers of chinook is serious he doesn't believe there is evidence SRKWs are 'starving to death' due to lack of food.

I'd also say we have to be careful about over estimating the intelligence & adaptability of Orcas, Dolphins etc.

Whatever way you slice it the SRKWs population is in crisis. The biggest part of the crisis is they are not reproducing. Very few female young have survived to reproductive maturity over the last number of years. Some way to increase available feed is only one part of the strategy.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: CohoJake on January 06, 2019, 09:55:18 AM


Dr Trites says the Orcas examined while emaciated were in that condition due to other serious illness. While it's true the low numbers of chinook is serious he doesn't believe there is evidence SRKWs are 'starving to death' due to lack of food.


That comment has stuck with me as well.  Why does nobody mention the impact of the harvest of whales from this particular population for the aquarium industry?  That had a huge impact on the genetic diversity of this population, and it is irreversible.  Sea World in particular owes it to this population to ensure it's continued survival.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 06, 2019, 10:49:27 AM
That comment has stuck with me as well.  Why does nobody mention the impact of the harvest of whales from this particular population for the aquarium industry?  That had a huge impact on the genetic diversity of this population, and it is irreversible.  Sea World in particular owes it to this population to ensure it's continued survival.

The government of Canada and the government of the USA approved thoes removals.

Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 06, 2019, 11:33:37 AM
they also happened 40 to 50 years ago and the population subsequently increased.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: adriaticum on January 08, 2019, 12:52:10 PM
The best way to help rebuild salmon stocks is to fight against commercial fisheries.
All of them.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 08, 2019, 01:14:06 PM
Sports Fishermen by far take the most amount of Chinook.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: bigblockfox on January 08, 2019, 01:42:48 PM
Sports Fishermen by far take the most amount of Chinook.

you have any sources to back up your claim?
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 08, 2019, 02:25:53 PM
I do but frankly I don't feel like going though it all. In general sports fishermen kill the most amount of Chinook BC coast wide.  After that its First Nations and then Commercial Fisheries.

For Fraser River stocks its a bit different and I think the exploitation by fishery has been posted here before.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: santefe on January 08, 2019, 08:09:40 PM
Coast wide, I don"t think so, thats from my experience and observation.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 08, 2019, 09:55:12 PM
last I heard the recreational sector takes about 50% of the chinook. I think it's about the same for coho.

The commercial sector takes by far the biggest share of the other 3 commercial species.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: cas on January 09, 2019, 06:20:36 PM
Sports Fishermen by far take the most amount of Chinook.

Incorrect
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 09, 2019, 09:56:52 PM
Incorrect

... and your assessment is based on what?

according to the PSC 2016 report on chinook catch and escapement the sport sector caught 70% of 182,000 Canadian Individual Stock [Chinook ] Based Management Fisheries. Almost all the chinook caught in Southern BC inside waters are caught by the sports sector - approx 70,000 fish. FN sport catch was about 11,000, almost exclusively in the Fraser. Commercial catch was all but nil.

PACIFIC SALMON COMMISSION JOINT CHINOOK TECHNICAL COMMITTEE ANNUAL REPORT OF CATCH AND ESCAPEMENT FOR 2016 REPORT Page 15.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: dcajaxs on January 10, 2019, 05:25:59 AM
And what about chinook caught in international waters? or do they stay within the psc borders?
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 10, 2019, 06:12:03 AM
interesting question! How about you look for some information!
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: dcajaxs on January 10, 2019, 07:03:58 AM
interesting question! How about you look for some information!
only vessels that belong to the npasc are supposed to follow the rules in international waters based on the above link.  I suspect some other countries do not.  or as the saying goes it only takes a couple bad apples to spoil everything.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/international/media/bk_pacificsal-eng.htm
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 10, 2019, 11:19:26 AM
Most Chinook stocks don't travel 200 miles out they stay and eat local where they can be targeted year round by sports fishing boats. Where are our Chinook being caught by sports fishermen. Here is a breakdown. This is only for marine waters.

(https://i.imgur.com/evuJWFd.png)
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: BCLAX on January 11, 2019, 06:27:39 AM
How is this data collected?
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 11, 2019, 08:40:30 AM
How is this data collected?

Creel surveys, Fly overs, Guide log books,

Guided operations account for 50% of the Chinook harvested by the sports fishing industry
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 11, 2019, 10:44:04 AM
Most Chinook stocks don't travel 200 miles out they stay and eat local where they can be targeted year round by sports fishing boats. Where are our Chinook being caught by sports fishermen. Here is a breakdown. This is only for marine waters.


I think it's recognized that not insignificant numbers of BC fish are caught in Alaskan waters and the same is true for fish from Washington and Oregon fish being caught here in BC, as well as in Alaska. Can this be avoided?
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 11, 2019, 11:00:03 AM
I think it's recognized that not insignificant numbers of BC fish are caught in Alaskan waters and the same is true for fish from Washington and Oregon fish being caught here in BC, as well as in Alaska. Can this be avoided?

I was more referring to the post about fish caught outside PST area.  Like chum caught way out in international border by big Asian factory ships with 8km long gilnets.

Can this be avoided?

ENGO's like the wild fish conservancy and water shed watch have proposed only having terminal and in river fisheries. Avoids mix stock problems and also allows fish to be enumerated before they are caught. 

The ocean lobby by all sectors tho is pretty significant  Even First Nations up and down the coast would lobby pretty hard against it.  IT would also go against recent supreme court ruling that gave the 5 nations on WCVI prioty to sell commercial fish over recreational fishermen. Also gave them a quota of Fraser sockeye, Chinook, chum, coho ect...

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:8b98e9eb-9204-4513-8302-6a4fdf1ad6ea
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: Easywater on January 11, 2019, 02:15:34 PM
I think it's recognized that not insignificant numbers of BC fish are caught in Alaskan waters and the same is true for fish from Washington and Oregon fish being caught here in BC, as well as in Alaska. Can this be avoided?
I saw a document that said that 25% of Skeena salmon are caught in Alaska.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: BBarley on January 11, 2019, 03:40:08 PM
I saw a document that said that 25% of Skeena salmon are caught in Alaska.

I'm not sure what the ratios are anymore, but certainly a fair amount never make it back having passed through US waters on their way to the spawning grounds. Back in the 90's the commie fishermen in Prince Rupert blockaded a ferry bound for Ketchikan due to the overfishing of the Americans on BC bound salmon.

Be curious to find out how they negotiate the shared fisheries with streams flowing out into the panhandle from northwestern BC such as the Stikine, Taku, Alsek, Tatshenshini.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 11, 2019, 04:28:09 PM
an oldie but a goodie

(http://wildfishconservancy.org/images/news/CaughtFarFromHome2011journalchart.jpg)
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: RalphH on January 11, 2019, 04:32:24 PM


Be curious to find out how they negotiate the shared fisheries with streams flowing out into the panhandle from northwestern BC such as the Stikine, Taku, Alsek, Tatshenshini.

they don't. They are mostly harvested by US commercial anglers though there is FN economic fisheries. I think attempts to have in river commercial fisheries in the Stikine etc mostly failed despite government support. You can include the upper Yukon Fish in that too. According to Wikipedia 35 to 50% of the Yukon's chinook return spawns in Canada including some in BC.

Unlike Canada, salmon in the US are managed by the state of origin. A State like Alaska has to agree to enter an international treaty and have the US government negotiate on their behalf. Alaska has mostly declined to do this so are no bound by most salmon treaties.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: wildmanyeah on January 11, 2019, 04:45:15 PM

Unlike Canada, salmon in the US are managed by the state of origin. A State like Alaska has to agree to enter an international treaty and have the US government negotiate on their behalf. Alaska has mostly declined to do this so are no bound by most salmon treaties.

That was mostly true until recently, washington state threatened to list more of its chinook stocks as endangered. Endangered fish fall under us federal law. Its how they got alaska to agree to more chinook cuts in the recent PST chinook chapter negotiations.
Title: Re: Chinook Rebuilding, Maybe?
Post by: CohoJake on January 11, 2019, 10:17:59 PM
https://craigmedred.news/2019/01/10/doa-king-fishery/ (https://craigmedred.news/2019/01/10/doa-king-fishery/)

And now the Alaska chinook runs are failing.  This just may be a good thing for runs in BC, as Alaska chinook fishing looks to be substantially curtailed in 2019.

I'm wondering what the impact of winter chinook fisheries is in BC.  In WA, the winter blackmouth fisheries have very tight quotas, in part because catch & release mortaility is very high on winter caught fish (due to the depth where they are found).  Do the Vancounver or ECVI winter chinook fisheries commonly encounter undersize or otherwise not legal chinoook?  Are the winter chinook caught local to Vancouver often white chinook?  The winter fishery seems like it is a waste, as these fish need to grow and if they are caught later in the season, C&R mortality is much lower.  Thoughts?