Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: chris gadsden on January 18, 2018, 09:15:58 AM
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4 of the required 70 wild steelhead now tubed and delivered to the hatchery
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Thanks for update Chris.
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please tell the capture boys not to use the 4-6 pounders we are seeing this year, should be a 30" minimum of wild brood fish.
Just look at the Quinnalt River in Washington, they use only larger fish for brood stock and long term it produces larger fish.
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It is also a good idea to leave the largest wild fish in the river to do their thing so the large size genes remain in the wild.
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It is also a good idea to leave the largest wild fish in the river to do their thing so the large size genes remain in the wild.
Might be a better idea to leave all the wild fish alone to do their thing ... ::)
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Might be a better idea to leave all the wild fish alone to do their thing ... ::)
so no more hatchery plants in the V-C or move to sterilized fish sourced from another system as they do for interior stillwater?
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Might be a better idea to leave all the wild fish alone to do their thing ...
This is something I have thought about recently. I am not suggesting what should be done either way as I am far from as educated or as informed as the biologists who's jobs it is working in this field, but it is something I have wondered.
Earlier this year I listened to an informative and interesting talk on the diversity of steelhead and how that differentiates them from other salmonoids and what that means in their life histories. The rolls of the diverse age classes and sizes combining to create combinations of potential life histories was quite interesting and was notably reduced along with fitness levels in hatchery offspring even from wild brood stock scenarios.
So right now 70 wild steelhead are pulled from the population. What percentage of the remaining wild run does this 70 fish represent? When was the last time a proper run size assessment was preformed on the Chilliwack/Vedder? Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it has been a long time. I hear anecdotal estimates thrown around but am curious to see actual numbers from a recent study, and am curious what percentage of the wild run are removed to create fish with reduced fitness levels with less genetic life history combinations.
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i'm confused are you saying there is actually wild steelhead (different genes) in the V/C ? I would of thought they would of been inbred brother/sister by now like all the other enhanced systems.
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I always heard the numbers fluctuate year to year around 5000 to 10000 steelhead return. The percentage of wild to hatch. Even at 50 50 split. 70 fish out of 2500 is a small percentage of the wild return. I could be way off. It would be cool if somebody in the know would give thier bit.
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Might be a better idea to leave all the wild fish alone to do their thing ... ::)
No argument from here.
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Yup and then it will look exactly like the Squamish, extremely poor. 70 fish is nothing for the Vedder even if there are only 1000 wild fish it is still only 15% of the population. I would bet that you get more mortality on this stream from all of the catch and release encounters over the season. Be glad that there is a healthy fishery on this system as it is basically the only consistent steelhead fishery left in the lwr. mainland. Lets not forget that there are 2.5 million people living within 2 hours of this stream and population is projected to double in the next 20 years. The dream that if you have only wild fish will allow this stream to return to it's former glory are totally unrealistic. Just look at the Thompson and Chilcoltin. No enhancement, no fish. There are just too many demands on these populations and society just do's not want to make any significant sacrifices to their lifestyles to allow these populations to recover if that is even possible.
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With all the wild systems seemingly going down the drain with their runs, perhaps it is time to stop blaming the hatcheries and their fish are causing harm. Perhaps whatever bad things in the ocean (such as the increased predation by the warm water species of Tuna & Mackerel brought up by the 'blob' and the poor nutrients in the warmer open ocean to support plankton, krill, anchovie, needle fish and herring), and the bad things that humans have done (such as all the netting, herring roe fisheries,, habitat destruction, pollution from environment & now nuclear plant etc.), it is time to realize that the mere wild fish population really can't sustain themselves anymore from such high rate of mortality. Perhaps in the past it will take 100 young fry to return 1 adult, and now it will take 300 to get 1 return. Of course I am using the numbers figuratively. But it reflects that something unfavourable is happening that unless we enhance the weakening systems, they will go down the drain in due time.
From another angle looking at it in an extreme way, if we cut off all hatchery enhancement, and that only the much smaller number of wild fry are making down the river and trying to make it to the ocean, do you think they have a much better chance to make it pass all the hungry predators, the pikeminnows, the mackeral & tuna plus the parasite attacks from the fish farms? Will they have better chance? I don't know but it seems logical to project that these hungry stomachs of the predators will find their fill from these wild stocks in the absence of the abundant hatchery fry, and that will be a disaster if it isn't a disaster already in the wild systems.
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Well said BKK.
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Nonsense - Squamish, Thompson & V/C are apples and oranges comparisons.
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year to year around 5000 to 10000 steelhead return? I doubt.
Say in 20km fishable water along vedder, if there were 5000 steelhead, it means 25 fish every 100 meters. Then we don't need to struggle at all.
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There are just too many demands on these populations and society just do's not want to make any significant sacrifices to their lifestyles to allow these populations to recover if that is even possible.
That's pretty much it,
I can link many studies that point to wild salmon having better survival rates than thoes of hatchery raised but there is no will to close fisheries to let stocks recover. I am not going to get into that debate as its been extensively debated on other forums.
Some people would say that the only reason C/V is doing good because the steelhead are winter run and not summer run. Therefore they see very little interception in mix fisheries.
Whatever the reason i see there being very little point in removing the hatchery at this point. It's really one of the only few systems left in BC where Steelhead are effectively not extirpated from.
I am also pretty sure the only thing different from the wild steelhead and the hatchery steelhead in the C/V at this point is a clipped fin.
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year to year around 5000 to 10000 steelhead return? I doubt.
Say in 20km fishable water along vedder, if there were 5000 steelhead, it means 25 fish every 100 meters. Then we don't need to struggle at all.
The Chilliwack system is much larger than 25km. You must include up to and beyond the lake when considering the water these fish utilize, not just the water fisherman use.
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The report at this link gives a general sense of numbers of steelhead in the Chilliwack River.
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r2210/chilliwack_adult_2001_1106349746675_e5c96f8eb41e4f4b8c1eb5150a80e5f7.pdf (http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r2210/chilliwack_adult_2001_1106349746675_e5c96f8eb41e4f4b8c1eb5150a80e5f7.pdf)
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Thanks firebird for this data.
Some good points have been raised in this thread, and I agree, a Vedder- Thompson comparison is not valid as Vedder fish don’t have the interception issues as Interior steelhead stocks, and rearing areas are not compromised by water extraction in spawning tributaries. Like BNF 861, I also question the wisdom of using an unknown percentage of the wild stock annually, and especially the taking of these fish from the closed area. If indeed bkk is correct and there are at least 1000 wild spawners, then removing 15% for broodstock doesn’t seem so bad, but what if there are only 500 spawners – is that removal rate still acceptable to anglers?
I also question the catch and release mortality rate possibly being equal to 15% of the population – at 1000 fish that would mean 70 carcasses along the shores of the river. I have spent over 50 years on this system either fishing, or counting steelhead, and I can honestly say I have seen less than 10 dead in all those years. What concerns me more than actual mortalities is the real possibility that spawning success and gamete viability is negatively impacted (as it is in sockeye and other salmonids that undergo stress) from being caught multiple times.
I’m not naïve enough to think the steelhead hatchery program will stop on the Vedder, because as already stated, the river is too close to too many people, but I would sure like to see some justification for the present management decisions regarding the hatchery program.
And that may be coming as I’m told the Province has applied for funding for adult float count enumerations for this system.
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Perhaps taking the stress off these fish being caught during certain times would be more beneficial to spawning and mortality numbers. Especially April and may. Personally I prefer not to beat up Kelts and spawner fish that have been hooked repeatedly for 3+ months. Yes fresh fish come in right through April but are the few worth the many? larger closures in certain sections of the river and less rod days could be more impactful in the long run to protect future stocks and reduce mortality rates.
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Some more light reading here further to discussion of mortality
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r7003/ChilliwackSteelhead_Nelsonetal2004_1147453320035_f5d6b7c48e5149a085e3a9784657fed0.pdf
"This report presents the results of a two-year biotelemetry study designed to collect reliable information regarding the in-river temporal and spatial distribution of wild and hatchery adult steelhead related to migration and spawning activities in the Vedder/Chilliwack River, BC. The study was designed to provide estimates of mortality rates following release from conventional angling methods, plus estimates of survival-to-spawning and survival-to-kelt for these same fish. Additionally, estimates of recapture reates were determined through the establishment of an angler reporting process that included tag returns and a dedicated telephone line. The study was conducted in the winter and spring of both 1999 and 2000, and thus monitored two seperate year-runs of returning adult steelhead."
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And that may be coming as I’m told the Province has applied for funding for adult float count enumerations for this system.
... and angler/creel surveys and compliance monitoring, so I've heard.
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And that may be coming as I’m told the Province has applied for funding for adult float count enumerations for this system.
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Dave, float counts especially below the clay slides will be very difficult to do and get accurate numbers because of the turbidity of the water caused by the recent slides.
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Some more light reading here further to discussion of mortality
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r7003/ChilliwackSteelhead_Nelsonetal2004_1147453320035_f5d6b7c48e5149a085e3a9784657fed0.pdf
the study has been around and discussed a lot in the past. I would only hope that all fish were treated as well by anglers when released as the tagged fish in this study.
Looking at some of the info on where spawning of the study fish took place it may be worth considering moving the closure downstream towards the crossing to protect fish on the redds below Slesse Creek. I have heard that suggested before and seeing that data makes me think there may be much sense in that. It would be a away to keep anglers from targeting fish that are about to or are actively spawning.
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Might be a better idea to leave all the wild fish alone to do their thing ... ::)
Well said Dave.
Hopefully people will begin to look beyond their petty needs and see the big picture.
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I’d be surprised if there’s less then 1000 fish even on the worst of years. I doubt we’ve seen more then 3k in a really long time.
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year to year around 5000 to 10000 steelhead return? I doubt.
Say in 20km fishable water along vedder, if there were 5000 steelhead, it means 25 fish every 100 meters. Then we don't need to struggle at all.
I think if you could see clearly just what was going on down there you would throw your rod in the water and go home.
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those last 2 posts are chillingly perceptive.
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I’m pretty pro fishing opportunity when it comes to the vedder/Chilliwack but I would support some sort of closure from Allison pools up from March 15th on. There is a ton of phenomenal spawning habitat that isn’t being used because the fish just push through it all because of all the fishing pressure.
I think the rivers carrying capacity for steelhead would go way up if they had unharassed access to this section of river.
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Buck reports.
7 males, 6 females.
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Hey guys can we get an update for the sky is falling crowd. I'm guessing brood capture goals are reached, disaster averted and we are not needing to cull the brood stockers yet.
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Hey guys can we get an update for the sky is falling crowd. I'm guessing brood capture goals are reached, disaster averted and we are not needing to cull the brood stockers yet.
:)
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Last I heard they needed around 5 bucks but that was from a report last week.
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Judging by the 1-3 hero picks posted daily between Feb 24 to March 24 Fraser Valley Fishing Addicts Facebook page that the run was pretty strong or the fishermen were really good.
Cheddar steelhead at this point are probably one of the strongest runs of steelhead in the provence. Given its proximity to a major city that's incredible. I hope the powers at be out their study what makes this system so productive.
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Hey guys can we get an update for the sky is falling crowd. I'm guessing brood capture goals are reached, disaster averted and we are not needing to cull the brood stockers yet.
Rod, I wish I was as optimistic as you about the future of wild Vedder steelhead. As you are a fishing guide who has a financial interest in steelhead numbers I can understand your position on this.
Indeed it appears broodstock numbers have been reached, as we all predicted, but what price was paid to early run fish? We still have no clue as to what percent of the wild population was removed, and to my way of thinking, that not knowing is poor management. The silver lining of course is that the river was in poor fishing shape for much of December and January, so if there were any early fish they may have got through.
This is obviously a contentious issue and we all have opinions. By early June, buck and I will have completed our 8th year of spot counts at 3 known spawning areas – I will wait and see how those numbers compare to past years before I comment much further on this.
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Judging by the 1-3 hero picks posted daily between Feb 24 to March 24 Fraser Valley Fishing Addicts Facebook page that the run was pretty strong or the fishermen were really good.
Cheddar steelhead at this point are probably one of the strongest runs of steelhead in the provence. Given its proximity to a major city that's incredible. I hope the powers at be out their study what makes this system so productive.
I can think of several reasons Vedder steelhead are still here ... 1) these fish are not subject to interception fisheries and 2) the upper reaches are closed to angling, which creates a stress free staging/spawning area and 3) the river is often unfishable due to high/turbid water, allowing safe passage through the gauntlet of anglers.
Could be made better though ... a closure to angling from March 15 above Tamihi Creek would do wonders to protect spawners.
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Hey guys can we get an update for the sky is falling crowd. I'm guessing brood capture goals are reached, disaster averted and we are not needing to cull the brood stockers yet.
No need to replace the old guys with the young guys yet? 😬
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I can think of several reasons Vedder steelhead are still here ... 1) these fish are not subject to interception fisheries and 2) the upper reaches are closed to angling, which creates a stress free staging/spawning area and 3) the river is often unfishable due to high/turbid water, allowing safe passage through the gauntlet of anglers.
Could be made better though ... a closure to angling from March 15 above Tamihi Creek would do wonders to protect spawners.
Close above Tamihi Creek is good idea. I always wonder fishing upper river or lower section. Once it is closed, there is no hesitate stress anymore.
Also, I would like a bait ban for steelhead season. It may help to stop Chum be netted for eggs.
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^^^^^ and stop the rape an pillage for egg export
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I can think of several reasons Vedder steelhead are still here ... 1) these fish are not subject to interception fisheries and 2) the upper reaches are closed to angling, which creates a stress free staging/spawning area and 3) the river is often unfishable due to high/turbid water, allowing safe passage through the gauntlet of anglers.
Could be made better though ... a closure to angling from March 15 above Tamihi Creek would do wonders to protect spawners.
I 100% agree with this
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Judging by the 1-3 hero picks posted daily between Feb 24 to March 24 Fraser Valley Fishing Addicts Facebook page that the run was pretty strong or the fishermen were really good.
Cheddar steelhead at this point are probably one of the strongest runs of steelhead in the provence. Given its proximity to a major city that's incredible. I hope the powers at be out their study what makes this system so productive.
That is not an indication of run strength. The good fisherman caught fish as usual but this year is a grind to say the least. Close above Tamihi Creek is good idea. I always wonder fishing upper river or lower section. Once it is closed, there is no hesitate stress anymore.
Also, I would like a bait ban for steelhead season. It may help to stop Chum be netted for eggs.
Uneducated post. Most of the returning lower mainland chum are heavily hatchery augmented. The sport fishery has little to no impact. The commercial and fn mainstem Fraser fishery though is another story... and their customers are over seas not bait fisherman.
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No need to replace the old guys with the young guys yet? 😬
most of the fish were taken above the boundary this year so the usual brood guys did not come through.
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most of the fish were taken above the boundary this year so the usual brood guys did not come through.
I thought it was only the old broodstock guys fishing above the boundary? One would think with all the high water for the first half of the season allowing the fish to get upriver quickly and fishing undisturbed water it would be pretty easy to catch broodstock in the closed section of the river.
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I would like a bait ban for steelhead season.
Explain why a bait ban is needed?
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I thought it was only the old broodstock guys fishing above the boundary? One would think with all the high water for the first half of the season allowing the fish to get upriver quickly and fishing undisturbed water it would be pretty easy to catch broodstock in the closed section of the river.
The only fishing for broodstock above the boundary is by hatchery staff. I have angled for broodstock in the closed area, many years ago, and yeah it was easy fishing. Pretty much like any steelheading when there are lots of fish.