Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: cdjk123 on October 20, 2016, 07:27:41 PM
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I went out this afternoon and attempted to fish very high and dirty water (ok...I was desperate). Shouldn't have bothered. Didn't stay long.
Anyhow, I was in a fairly popular spot with about 6 guys on my side of the river and maybe 10 on the other side.
Not joking, about 80% of them were pocket flossing. Line, weight, and float. Most didn't bother with bait. Saw many chum and a few coho body snagged and some flossed. Again, many weren't using bait. Many fish retained illegally.
All were doing the classic short cast and repeat technique of flossers.
My questions are: Do these people seriously think they're ethically fishing? Do they even care? Who the hell is promoting this kind of angling?
I simply do not understand how this is a satisfying way to spend an afternoon. I would feel terrible if I fished like this.
There seriously needs to be some sort of education campaign to teach future and current anglers about ethical fishing techniques. Having the threat of a CO or DFO officer stop by just doesn't seem to work.
Yes, I reported it, but they said there wasn't a lot they could do.
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You have to care about fishing ethically to care about ethical techniques.
Those folk likely know exactly what they're doing and simply don't care.
Ethics are just opinions, unfortunately.
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Salmon streams near large areas of population bring out the absolute worst in people.
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Illegally kept fish are fish kept by criminals. >:(
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I think it comes out of desperation. They know it's wrong, but they're a newb and maybe they drove in all the way from Vancouver. Now they can't catch chit because of their technique so they try to line them. Maybe they catch a couple so next time they come back that's what they do. I see newbies all the time trying to fish ethically but their drifts are just brutal.
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Its just a meat harvest to them.
/Dirt bags.
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Might also be because a lot of the BB'ers didn't get an opening on the Fraser so some of those people have now moved to systems like the Vedder to do their thing.
Seen way to much of it at Stave and certain spots on the Vedder. It's always suspicious when someone grabs their fish and before they even bleed it they stuff it into a garbage bag alive and basically make their way out, or the use of a 10 foot leader, bouncing betty 4-6oz, a small float, and the tap tap... RIP! tap tap... tap RIP!. So far I've removed several hooks from the backs and bellys of chum and it always surprises me cause they are aggresive to something properly drifted in front of them.
I really hope their start making some more regulations surrounding the use of such techniques but I hear it's already in the works cause of how stupid things can get on the river in some spots.
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I have often thought we should be putting on a class to show people how to fish properly, a good project for Rod and Kitty. :P ;D It always saddens me to see fathers out with a young son or daughter and they are flossing snagging etc. as the children will grow up doing this all their life.
An angler the other day said we short floaters are a dying breed, not sure of that as I have seen and fished beside a young angler that knew the proper way and was having success too. I asked him who taught him to fish this way, he is on this forum too, he said "my dad and friends", refreshing to see and hear that.
Many know I and others have been beating this drum for a long time but it gets worse each year it seems.
Who needs a fish that bad the have to floss, dip or snag it?
Is there a solution? I afraid not, a few reading Fishing With Rod who reads Rod's explanation how to short float etc. may change but, I hate to be so negative but there is just too many of them out there these days.
Maybe someone else has a solution that will work but I donot know how.
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What's with all the snaggers? I remember them as always being there. It's not a new thing.
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The OP is describing dipping, which is very short flossing that also results in a lot of snagged fish. It is common during high water, but also all the time in fast water areas like Tamahi rapids.
I think there are two classes of snaggers:
1. People that don't know any better. They learned from a snagger who told them that there is no other way to catch fish.
Unfortunately the act of flossing causes the bite to go off so only the flossers end up catching fish.
2. People that know better but don't care. Some meat fishers, lazy folks, guides who are under pressure to get their clients into fish.
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Sorry for my ignorance; but is flossing not ehtical? In Terrace, everybody and their grandmother flosses. I learned to floss on my spey rod. Am I doing it wrong?
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Sorry for my ignorance; but is flossing not ehtical? In Terrace, everybody and their grandmother flosses. I learned to floss on my spey rod. Am I doing it wrong?
You're either a troll or completely clueless. I'll let you divulge.
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I think it's considered ethical only when you can trick a fish into biting, whereas flossing is simply snagging by the mouth.
Perhaps a solution or partial redress would be to simply drastically reduce the retention limits. If you can take only one fish home, whether by shortfloating or snagging, perhaps some of these guys wouldn't bother.
Mind you, I imagine many of these same folk pay about as much attention to the retention limits as they do to ethica ,fishing.
More than a few times I've seen people limit out, disappear for a while, then come back to fish again, or scurry off to the bushes with their catches...
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So here's the deal!
People hear through the internet, cell phones, word of mouth that there are salmon in the Vedder.
These people do not give a Sh-t about sport fishing, ethics or whatever. All they care about is putting meat in the freezer no matter what they have to do to accomplish this.
When they drive all the way from Richmond to go get some fish they are not going to turn around and drive home if the river is blown out. They have already spent money on gas to get out there so they want to see dead fish to get their return on investment.
They are going to try to get their fish by whatever means be it flossing, snagging or whatever it takes.
That's why you see these people fishing in water that's so muddy you couldn't see 2 inches and in choke points and fast water that funnels the fish into a tight area.
That's where their technique works. Just go up to the slab or boulder run and watch people fish and you will see what I mean.
True sport fishermen know that when the river is too muddy the fish can't see to bite and also trying to fish in an ultra fast current doesn't give the fish time to bite the presentation.
Unfortunately these same people teach their kids and friends the same bad behavior so they think it's the way to fish!
I really don't know what the answer is. I have tried to talk to the offenders and shame them about what they are doing but it's a waste of time, they don't care!
I have watched the evolution of sport fishing on the Chilliwack / Vedder system since 1966 and I think opening the Fraser to Sockeye fishing is the main cause of this mentality.
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Most of the flossers that I have talked to are completely convinced that salmon do not bite in fresh water and that flossing is the only way to get them... where did this start. I've even tried to have constructive arguments with them over fishing techniques, short floated a few fish up and they are still convinced that the fish I caught must have been flossed. I don't bother anymore just stay away from the flossing spots, you can't change stubborn ignorance.
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You're either a troll or completely clueless. I'll let you divulge.
Well. I fish for Salmon at Ferry Island using a 13'6" Spey rod. I fish 540gr compact skagit with a 2.5' float 7.5' T-14 mow tip. From that I run a 5' 15lb Maxima leader and a size 1 gammy with some wool pinched in a baitloop.
I didn't grow up doing this. In-fact I grew up chucking frogs and countdowns for Muskoka Largemouth. This is just the way people fish that bar. I learned from some friends that have been fishing the Skeena for 20+ years. I spoke to a number of guides like Ron Wakita and Noel Gyger that insisted this is how you catch fish here. Even the YouTube famous Captain Quinn has a video describing this method.
The only variance from this technique that I saw this summer were two mouth-breathers from Vancouver that stood in the middle of the riffle and "Czech nymphed" with big Steelhead patterns.
What I am asking is if I am all of a sudden wrong. Maybe it's a difference in fishing culture, or maybe I am getting my terminology wrong.
Not trolling, hence me asking you to excuse my ignorance. ;)
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Well. I fish for Salmon at Ferry Island using a 13'6" Spey rod. I fish 540gr compact skagit with a 2.5' float 7.5' T-14 mow tip. From that I run a 5' 15lb Maxima leader and a size 1 gammy with some wool pinched in a baitloop.
I didn't grow up doing this. In-fact I grew up chucking frogs and countdowns for Muskoka Largemouth. This is just the way people fish that bar. I learned from some friends that have been fishing the Skeena for 20+ years. I spoke to a number of guides like Ron Wakita and Noel Gyger that insisted this is how you catch fish here. Even the YouTube famous Captain Quinn has a video describing this method.
The only variance from this technique that I saw this summer were two mouth-breathers from Vancouver that stood in the middle of the riffle and "Czech nymphed" with big Steelhead patterns.
What I am asking is if I am all of a sudden wrong. Maybe it's a difference in fishing culture, or maybe I am getting my terminology wrong.
Not trolling, hence me asking you to excuse my ignorance. ;)
The easiest way to tell if you're a snagger when you're dredging with heavy sink tips is to switch to circle hooks. If your catch rate goes to zero then you are flossing.
If you are flossing then you are intentionally snagging fish (hopefully) in the mouth. This is unethical and borderline illegal.
Odd that you called the czech nympers "mouth breathers" since it is almost impossible to floss/snag fish with a dead drifted vertical presentation. It is one of the most ethical methods to use, regardless of effectiveness.
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The easiest way to tell if you're a snagger when you're dredging with heavy sink tips is to switch to circle hooks. If your catch rate goes to zero then you are flossing.
If you are flossing then you are intentionally snagging fish (hopefully) in the mouth. This is unethical and borderline illegal.
Odd that you called the czech nympers "mouth breathers" since it is almost impossible to floss/snag fish with a dead drifted vertical presentation. It is one of the most ethical methods to use, regardless of effectiveness.
That's where I am confused. Why are reputable guides in the area endorsing this? Is it borderline illegal in an interpretive sense?
Is it a cultural difference? Or am I still completely clueless on how to fish?
Now that you mention it I supposed it could be interpreted as "snagging" in that I wasn't skating dry flies across the buckets...
If a fisheries or conservation officer stops to check me for my stamps, will they critique my technique and give me a fine/warning? I release foul hooked fish, but these are rare to begin with.
I called these guys mouth-breathers independently of their style. They were ignorant. Throwing cigarette butts in the river, spent line all over the rocks, and didn't move for locals fighting fish down the river. I spoke with them, they were alright. They said they flew up because they couldn't fish down there or something like that. Tourists.
I don't know man. I'm not arguing. I'm just confused and wondering if I have been misled.
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::)
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Was at the Stave today and where I was fishing about 75% of the people were flossing/snagging. There was a gentleman next to me who brought his 2 sons (maybe 6/9 years old) and the were letting her rip just like good old dad. :'(
I don't know why it bothers me so much but I get very upset when I see people flossing, there is no sport in that. I know they are there to just harvest some "free" meat but there is no challenge at all.
I actually left early as it was bothering me.
On another note, anyone have a boat that is willing to drop me off at one of the islands in the stave and then pick me up about 5 hrs later? ;D I see those islands sooo close yet sooo far and you get away from the snaggers a bit.
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Ok so I've read through it and I'm somewhat convinced that flossing straddles an ethical boundary.
I'm glad I can come to a place like FWR where I can learn about this type of thing.
But can anyone actually explain to me how you fish for Salmon? If I ditch the sink tip and tie on a prettier fly, does that make it alright?
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I'll get the popcorn
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Doesn't answer my question.
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But can anyone actually explain to me how you fish for Salmon?
Just tell me already... Or is it a secret???
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You sound like you are trolling hard but somehow I get the feeling you are serious? You put something on your hook that entices them to bite at it.
I am not trolling. I am sitting here trying to figure out how to do this the RIGHT way. Either you don't want to help, or you don't know how to fish. If I can describe in-detail my 8wt "snagging rig" you could probably describe in-detail an ethical fly fishing set-up. "Something on your hook that entices them to bite?" Come on man, we're adults here.
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Well this morning I decided to go to the Stave and most of the guys around me 80% were catching fish by flossing and the rest no fish because we were ethical, some of them were returning to their cars to put the fish they caught and then they came back for more!!
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Screw it. I don't even see the point in asking. I've asked for help so many times on this forum and all I get are cheeky self-preserving answers. What do you expect from the fishing community when all you put in is arrogance?
I've spent some time here and all I've seen is people putting politics and egos before sharing, teaching, and helping.
I asked a question about fish parasites once and the twit that commented just wanted to critique my photography skills rather than contribute.
I live in the north. Meat here is about a third of the price more than what it is for lower mainlanders. I love fishing and I love eating fish. I WANT to learn how to do this properly so I can keep doing it, and my kids can keep doing it.
I'm not going to let this die. I'm just going to get my answers somewhere else.
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Snagging as defined in the current BC freshwater sportfishing regulations synopsis: "snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body other than the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately."
The way the regulations are currently written, if you are trying to hook a fish in the mouth, it is not snagging. There is not currently a rule which says the fish must bite your lure or bait. Until there is, I don't see any "grey area", flossing isn't violating any currently written rule. That doesn't mean it is ethical. That does mean it is legal.
The best way to get people to change the way they fish is to show them that your chosen method can be successful. People imitate success. I have met a couple people on the river this season that have said they started fishing for salmon on the Fraser, and this is their first year on the V/C. They literally don't know of another way to catch fish. Show them. Offer to share a bit of roe with them, or offer them a chum jig. Show them how to rig up.
I often offer to net or land fish for other anglers that appear new to the sport - rather than worrying that they are going to drag a foul hooked wild coho up on to the beach, I just assume they want to release the fish and make it happen. I'm sure I saved a Cultus lake sockeye and multiple wild coho by doing this earlier this season. I understand that it can be frustrating to fish around those who aren't doing it ethically, but if all the ethical anglers give up and move on, the situation will get worse, not better.
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Another good post WAfishboy! You seem to be a credit to the angling community and many of us thank you for it. Keep fighting the good fight :)
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Snagging as defined in the current BC freshwater sportfishing regulations synopsis: "snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body other than the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately."
The way the regulations are currently written, if you are trying to hook a fish in the mouth, it is not snagging. There is not currently a rule which says the fish must bite your lure or bait. Until there is, I don't see any "grey area", flossing isn't violating any currently written rule. That doesn't mean it is ethical. That does mean it is legal.
Well said
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Your license allows you to try to get the fish to bite, not try to run your line through their mouth and drag them to shore.
this is only your limited interpretation. There is no 'legal finding' (as in no court has ruled on 'flossing') and DFO position is that if a fish is hooked in the mouth or even thereabouts, it's been legally hooked.
Truth is there is no 'ethical' way to trick a fish and/or to stick a hook in it's mouth. Either is so far removed from any other form of ethical thought it is ridiculous.
No one says it is unethical to net a fish or spear it or snare it where those forms are legal. Most fish caught and eaten by people are not caught by sport fishing. The only difference between 'ethical' angling, flossing and snagging is that one of the 3 is illegal so at least there is clarity around that one.
As has been said what the flossing issue is about it people who don't want to have to share or see a class of people on the river that they disdain. This is something that also has racial implications.
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Screw it. I don't even see the point in asking. I've asked for help so many times on this forum and all I get are cheeky self-preserving answers. What do you expect from the fishing community when all you put in is arrogance?
I've spent some time here and all I've seen is people putting politics and egos before sharing, teaching, and helping.
I asked a question about fish parasites once and the twit that commented just wanted to critique my photography skills rather than contribute.
I live in the north. Meat here is about a third of the price more than what it is for lower mainlanders. I love fishing and I love eating fish. I WANT to learn how to do this properly so I can keep doing it, and my kids can keep doing it.
I'm not going to let this die. I'm just going to get my answers somewhere else.
Rod has many informative videos on ethical or better sporting ways to catch salmon. He has lots on how to rig roe and what type of spinners and lures work.
Here are some links!
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=40170.0 For how to float fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOnmPLQogIA For fishing with Spinners for Coho, He has lots of great vids on Youtube. Crocks and colorado spinners seem to be the ticket!
Basically you are flossing when you are using an extremely long leeder. I really would not see the point of using anything more than 3 feet in the river. DFO has been for many years attempting to limit the size of leeder. Unfortunately, however it means adjusting the federal fishing charter and would actually need to be adjusted through the house of commons to be enforced by law.
IMO people learn to fish and where to fish from Local tackle shops. You go in, you ask them whats working, they hand you what you need and tell you where to go. Unfortunately they make an extreme amount of money from people flossing. You can tell this because when sockey season is shut down they complain that they are gonna go out of business. What do tackle shops sell during sockey season? bouncing betties, hooks,wool, lines, corkies, beads.
Right now its up to the individual fishermen to decide what the best spotting method is.
On an interesting side note i am currently reading a fishing book from 1910 that criticized any other method then flyfishing non ethical. heres the link its about fishing in BC great read! http://biodiversitylibrary.org/item/68381#page/1/mode/1up
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I really hate the guys who rip every time their float comes to the end of their drift.
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I don't think using bait is ethical. I believe flies and lures(atrificials) are the only ethical means of sport fishing. You might not have the same beliefs.
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I believe any method is ethical, as long as the fish is enticed to bite.
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I don't think using bait is ethical. I believe flies and lures(atrificials) are the only ethical means of sport fishing. You might not have the same beliefs.
So green wool in thee Fraser is ethical? LOL Just teasing buddy
This conversation is the exact reason I have not fished the Vedder or Stave in the last 3 years. I almost stopped at the Stave today after having no success on the Fraser. Glad I didnt make that mistake.
Here is the thing. You are not going to be able to stop it. Thats the bottom line. So why not fish other places where this doesnt happen.
I had the entire week off this week as I take it off to fish for coho. Of the 4 days I fished between Monday-Friday I caught coho everyday except today. Brought home a bunch of fish and one day I fished a system that has about 1 of 10 fish clipped. I had an epic day there of catching and releasing coho. The best part. I caught these fish while only being surrounded by mother nature. Nobody around at all.
Fishing to me is about relaxation. I do not want to fish somewhere where I am going to want to punch someone in the face. Thats not fishing to me and I will have no part of it.
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So green wool in thee Fraser is ethical? LOL Just teasing buddy
This conversation is the exact reason I have not fished the Vedder or Stave in the last 3 years. I almost stopped at the Stave today after having no success on the Fraser. Glad I didnt make that mistake.
Here is the thing. You are not going to be able to stop it. Thats the bottom line. So why not fish other places where this doesnt happen.
I had the entire week off this week as I take it off to fish for coho. Of the 4 days I fished between Monday-Friday I caught coho everyday except today. Brought home a bunch of fish and one day I fished a system that has about 1 of 10 fish clipped. I had an epic day there of catching and releasing coho. The best part. I caught these fish while only being surrounded by mother nature. Nobody around at all.
Fishing to me is about relaxation. I do not want to fish somewhere where I am going to want to punch someone in the face. Thats not fishing to me and I will have no part of it.
I've never hidden from the fact that I really enjoyed bottom bouncing the Fraser for Socks and Springs. I used to book my vacation time to make sure I was on the Fraser for opening morning of the Sock slaughter. I used to stack my freezer with sockeye - it used to look like cord wood. I enjoyed every minute and stayed till I got my limits every day - just crazy to think of the greed. I haven't bounced for years because of the requests of DFO and the popular flossing bashing. And I really don't want to be part of that gong show anymore.
I also no longer find it relaxing to fish the Fraser or Vedder anymore. Sometimes I really miss it but the thought of the crowds and my short temper with the idiots just turns me off. Plus this year my shoulder is buggered and I'm scared to slip and further injure it.
I'm not going to try stop or interfere with what or how people want to fish - I don't want to get involved because I think it would be hypocritical of me and I honestly now prefer just going out on Mill Lake by myself.
How can I tell someone not to do something when I enjoyed it so much myself? I used to b-bounce the Fraser and I liked it. Old dogs like me can change - I did.
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Screw it. I don't even see the point in asking. I've asked for help so many times on this forum and all I get are cheeky self-preserving answers. What do you expect from the fishing community when all you put in is arrogance?
I've spent some time here and all I've seen is people putting politics and egos before sharing, teaching, and helping.
I asked a question about fish parasites once and the twit that commented just wanted to critique my photography skills rather than contribute.
I live in the north. Meat here is about a third of the price more than what it is for lower mainlanders. I love fishing and I love eating fish. I WANT to learn how to do this properly so I can keep doing it, and my kids can keep doing it.
I'm not going to let this die. I'm just going to get my answers somewhere else.
Dufflayer, as someone who never contributes to this forum anymore seems as I don't live down south anymore and don't fish those tribs, I'll give you my two cents. I was raised on the Skeena and had the privilege of fishing the Lower Mainland tribs for a few years, and let's just say that it's a different world down there and they speak a different language.
I've had people blatantly accuse me of snagging while fishing my more preferred northern techniques, bottom bouncing with a 3 foot leader and twitching jigs without a float. The Fraser River sockeye fishery has created a cancer on the rivers down there that has honestly set an irreparable rift between fishermen based on something as simple as leader length. So understand as a Ferry Island guy, speaking to a Vedder guy and understanding his frustrations is like apples and oranges.
The fishery you speak of at Ferry Island was developed in the summer months for the typical non biting sockeye, it's a bastardization of fly fishing with flossing. Migrating sockeye hug the major riffle at the top of the island as it is close to shore and offers them the path of least resistance from the heavier current further out, the heavy sinktips slide through the run quickly and get down fast to the fish thus giving a quick easy lining. All salmon can be lined this way as most will travel a similar path up the river in a major river such as this, typically with the bigger fish preferring the stronger current and being further out.
As for wanting to know how to fish without lining, first step, ditch Ferry Island, or at the very least, move down the island and away from the riffle. Find places with softer current and focus on slower swings in tight to shore, there are lots of nice gradual sloping bars around Terrace that are ideal to have a type 3 sink tip with a slightly weighted fly. There are plenty of nice steelhead tribs around Terrace to hone your craft in the fall with almost certainty you won't floss a fish.
Anyway, I feel your frustration, I hope this helps clarify some things, if you want any more pointers or tips and don't want the southern BC hoard to hear, just PM me.
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It's Friday, been a long week so why not jump into the ring. If a person is fishing legally, staying within his or her retention limit and enjoying themselves what difference does it truly make?
In all seriousness, the C/V is a put and take fishery. It would be impossible for all of the fish that return to spawn or for the hatchery to raise the eggs from the rest. If a person wants to drive 2 hours to spend 1 hr to snag a couple of then so be it. As long as the method is legal, only legal fish are kept and and he/she stays within their retention limit does it matter if a person was fly fishing, bait casting, or anything else? I prefer casting, be it hardware or flies. On Chocolate milk days I stay home and leave the river to the drifters. Perhaps the drifters should leave the blown out days to the rippers.
The thing about ethics is they are unique to a person. I would almost guarantee even among all the people who are attacking the snaggers each would disagree on some ethical grounds. Could be which systems should be fished, which should be left alone; taking a salmon just for the roe; the whole premise of hatcheries; it doesn't matter. I just use these as examples because they are issues we often discuss among my group with most none of us all agreeing on everything.
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It's Friday, been a long week so why not jump into the ring. If a person is fishing legally, staying within his or her retention limit and enjoying themselves what difference does it truly make?
In all seriousness, the C/V is a put and take fishery. It would be impossible for all of the fish that return to spawn or for the hatchery to raise the eggs from the rest. If a person wants to drive 2 hours to spend 1 hr to snag a couple of then so be it. As long as the method is legal, only legal fish are kept and and he/she stays within their retention limit does it matter if a person was fly fishing, bait casting, or anything else? I prefer casting, be it hardware or flies. On Chocolate milk days I stay home and leave the river to the drifters. Perhaps the drifters should leave the blown out days to the rippers.
The thing about ethics is they are unique to a person. I would almost guarantee even among all the people who are attacking the snaggers each would disagree on some ethical grounds. Could be which systems should be fished, which should be left alone; taking a salmon just for the roe; the whole premise of hatcheries; it doesn't matter. I just use these as examples because they are issues we often discuss among my group with most none of us all agreeing on everything.
Ethics is one thing, breaking the law is another. Snagging fish is illegal.
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Screw it. I don't even see the point in asking. I've asked for help so many times on this forum and all I get are cheeky self-preserving answers. What do you expect from the fishing community when all you put in is arrogance?
I've spent some time here and all I've seen is people putting politics and egos before sharing, teaching, and helping.
I asked a question about fish parasites once and the twit that commented just wanted to critique my photography skills rather than contribute.
I live in the north. Meat here is about a third of the price more than what it is for lower mainlanders. I love fishing and I love eating fish. I WANT to learn how to do this properly so I can keep doing it, and my kids can keep doing it.
There is no one right way to fish, its like asking whats the right way to cook eggs. As others have mentioned fishing ethics covers a huge spectrum of opinions. If you have questions about your specific setup then perhaps ask a very specific question and I'll wager you'll likely get a very specific answer. To simply ask "whats the right way to fish for salmon" is too broad and will mean many things to different people, and you'll get a whole range of answers, many of them not useful for you, as you've found.
Ethics is more about behavior as it is about gear. I could take my centrepin drift rod and slay on aggressive coho short-floating roe or be a dumbass and rip my hook through a school of holding coho with the same setup. To ask if a particular setup is ethical is mostly a meaningless question, because its the guy on the other end that defines the ethics, and I'm not trying to be snarky.
I'm not going to let this die. I'm just going to get my answers somewhere else.
Sad to see someone leave this forum but you only get out what you put in. There is a wealth of info in these forums already, and there are very few questions that havent been asked before. Have you went through the old posts to glean some info? Perhaps try rephrasing your inquiries to be a little more specific without a chip on your shoulder and you'll probably get some good answers.
Good luck
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Snagging as defined in the current BC freshwater sportfishing regulations synopsis: "snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body other than the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately."
The way the regulations are currently written, if you are trying to hook a fish in the mouth, it is not snagging. There is not currently a rule which says the fish must bite your lure or bait. Until there is, I don't see any "grey area", flossing isn't violating any currently written rule. That doesn't mean it is ethical. That does mean it is legal.
this is only your limited interpretation. There is no 'legal finding' (as in no court has ruled on 'flossing') and DFO position is that if a fish is hooked in the mouth or even thereabouts, it's been legally hooked.
Interestingly I stumbled on an old copy of the BC fishing regs in the basement and here is the definition of snagging from 1990-1992.
(http://imgur.com/3PNf4b9.jpg)
attempting to catch or catching a fish with a hook in any manner other than by inducing it to take the hook in its mouth.
The next regs I have is from 2000-2001 and it has the current definition as we now know it, so somewhere in those 10 years the wording changed. As to when, how, or why, I have no idea. But this whole 'fish dont have to bite to be legal' has not always been that way.
Its really too bad, as changing the requirement from having fish actively bite shifts the relationship from viewing the fish as an adversary to pursue and outwit to enabling viewing them as simply objects to be exploited by any means as long as it's 'legal' IMHO.
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The best way to get people to change the way they fish is to show them that your chosen method can be successful. People imitate success. I have met a couple people on the river this season that have said they started fishing for salmon on the Fraser, and this is their first year on the V/C. They literally don't know of another way to catch fish. Show them. Offer to share a bit of roe with them, or offer them a chum jig. Show them how to rig up.
I agree with you 100%. Most of the time people don't know what is the right way of fishing. Bottom bouncing is the only method my friend showed me when he introduced me to fishing. We used 4/0 hook, 50 lb mainline, and 30lb - 6 feet leader to fish for sockeye at the Fraser during the high sockeye return 2 years ago. I snagged two fish in the first 5 casts and I kept the fish. Everyone around me did the same thing. On my next couple trips to Peg Leg, I noticed almost everyone was flossing fish. I started questioning my friend about this fishing method, and he could not give me a proper answer, since that was the only way his friends showed him.
I used the same bottom bouncing method when I fished at the Vedder. On my first trip I was racially insulted and almost beaten up by 2 so called "ethical/true sportsmanship" fishers. Only then I started doing some research and reading about proper ways of salmon fishing in the lower mainland and came across this forum. There is endless but scattered information online, however it takes a lot of reading and searching to get to the right information. This is very hard for those people whose English is second language. It also depends on the mindsets. Those who fish to relax and enjoy nature will approach differently than those who fish for meat.
I think before issuing a fishing license to a person, he/she has to read and sign a simple wording form (prepared in different languages, in point form) introducing the right way of fishing and indicating flossing/snagging is illegal. Hopefully this can bring awareness to people just get into fishing.
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I believe any method is ethical, as long as the fish is enticed to bite.
Why? What's so important about enticing a fish to bite that someone transforms injuring a fish & making it suffer to making the same endeavor ethical?
When bait fishing kills over 40% of trout caught in a catch and release situation is that ethical?
Do you just measure ethics by method or should impacts and outcomes be considered?
The next regs I have is from 2000-2001 and it has the current definition as we now know it, so somewhere in those 10 years the wording changed. As to when, how, or why, I have no idea. But this whole 'fish dont have to bite to be legal' has not always been that way.
Its really too bad, as changing the requirement from having fish actively bite shifts the relationship from viewing the fish as an adversary to pursue and outwit to enabling viewing them as simply objects to be exploited by any means as long as it's 'legal' IMHO.
Laws are arbitrary and subject to change - ethics are fluid and subject to change. Hungry people are seldom troubled by how they view a fish.
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Dufflayer, as someone who never contributes to this forum anymore seems as I don't live down south anymore and don't fish those tribs, I'll give you my two cents. I was raised on the Skeena and had the privilege of fishing the Lower Mainland tribs for a few years, and let's just say that it's a different world down there and they speak a different language.
I've had people blatantly accuse me of snagging while fishing my more preferred northern techniques, bottom bouncing with a 3 foot leader and twitching jigs without a float. The Fraser River sockeye fishery has created a cancer on the rivers down there that has honestly set an irreparable rift between fishermen based on something as simple as leader length. So understand as a Ferry Island guy, speaking to a Vedder guy and understanding his frustrations is like apples and oranges.
The fishery you speak of at Ferry Island was developed in the summer months for the typical non biting sockeye, it's a bastardization of fly fishing with flossing. Migrating sockeye hug the major riffle at the top of the island as it is close to shore and offers them the path of least resistance from the heavier current further out, the heavy sinktips slide through the run quickly and get down fast to the fish thus giving a quick easy lining. All salmon can be lined this way as most will travel a similar path up the river in a major river such as this, typically with the bigger fish preferring the stronger current and being further out.
As for wanting to know how to fish without lining, first step, ditch Ferry Island, or at the very least, move down the island and away from the riffle. Find places with softer current and focus on slower swings in tight to shore, there are lots of nice gradual sloping bars around Terrace that are ideal to have a type 3 sink tip with a slightly weighted fly. There are plenty of nice steelhead tribs around Terrace to hone your craft in the fall with almost certainty you won't floss a fish.
Anyway, I feel your frustration, I hope this helps clarify some things, if you want any more pointers or tips and don't want the southern BC hoard to hear, just PM me.
Nice to see someone actually answer the question instead of hammering on him for being a flosser , is that not the point of this forum ?
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Reiber stated his belief on ethics, so I felt like stating mine. Feel free to state yours Ralph. Like he said, you may not have the same beliefs as others.
For the record, I only bait fish for salmon and steelhead. All other fishing is done with artificials unless I'm taking one of my small children to a pond.
I cannot remember the last time I had a deep hooked salmon or steelhead or a bleeder for that matter bait fishing. In fact, the only one I can recall I was using a spoon.
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Reiber stated his belief on ethics, so I felt like stating mine. Feel free to state yours Ralph. Like he said, you may not have the same beliefs as others.
For the record, I only bait fish for salmon and steelhead. All other fishing is done with artificials unless I'm taking one of my small children to a pond.
I cannot remember the last time I had a deep hooked salmon or steelhead or a bleeder for that matter bait fishing. In fact, the only one I can recall I was using a spoon.
From what you've written, I totally respect your chosen method of angling. There is nothing wrong with it as long as it is done within the current regulations - which there is absolutely no reason to even think otherwise. There is nothing wrong with anyone who wishes to use bait legally to catch fish. I've personally given up using bait when I go fishing - so what, who cares? I'm not going to preach or promote one method over another - but I will report if I witness illegal fishing. Everyone please enjoy the sport or angling activity as you see appropriate. Whether one chooses to follow the Law is their own choice - sometimes people make the wrong choices. There are consequences when incorrect choices are made.
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beliefs are not ethics, in particular personal beliefs are not ethics. More relevant is what thinking is involved in arriving at a personal ethical belief.
Ethics involve well founded standard of right and wrong, what people ought to do in terms of rights, rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Theses are both prospective, what not to do and ways they ought to act.
Secondly ethics is a branch of thought that deals with issues of right and wrong what actions are ethical or not and why. Most often ethics are situational and increasingly ethics involves broad principles on what to do in specific situations. Ethics are not set in stone.
As I have said before in a number of threads & discussion sport fishing is less and less consistent with what ethicists consider ethical. At a minimum we should all consider that before we spout off all self righteous about those who fish in ways we find distasteful or inconsistent with our values or those of our 'group'.
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When bait fishing kills over 40% of trout caught in a catch and release situation is that ethical?
Nice hyperbole. I fished for trout for 20 years using bait and rarely lost a fish. In fact I lose more fish fly fishing while anchored to loons than I ever lost using bait.
We did use techniques that were less likely to gut hook (unlike fly fishing boobies for example).
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The OP is describing dipping, which is very short flossing that also results in a lot of snagged fish. It is common during high water, but also all the time in fast water areas like Tamahi rapids.
I think there are two classes of snaggers:
1. People that don't know any better. They learned from a snagger who told them that there is no other way to catch fish.
Unfortunately the act of flossing causes the bite to go off so only the flossers end up catching fish.
2. People that know better but don't care. Some meat fishers, lazy folks, guides who are under pressure to get their clients into fish.
Gotta agree with typhoon, some people just don't know what the heck they are doing, and were probably shown by someone that "this is how you catch salmon." I remember 8ish years ago when I move to Chiliwack I had never river fished. Some guys from work took me out salmon "fishing" in the Tamahai area. At the time I didn't know it, but we were dipping, in other words, snagging fish in the mouth. We released all fish not hooked in the mouth, and I thought it was an alright way to fish as long as the hook ended up in the fish's mouth.
Fortunately, after fishing with these bozos a few times I started reading some books, reading stuff on this site, steelhead fishing, and learning from my own trial and error. I now look back on those days and shake my head. I feel like an idiot, but I was new to river fishing and it's all I knew at the time.
I have not been back to a "dip hole" in about 6 years. I have zero desire to ever fish that way again. I'd rather go without fish or if I really wanted some, buy it from the store.
The odd time in the lower Vedder where I typically fish I'll end up fishing near someone doing the old cast, drift, R-I-P, reel in. Usually they're catching nothing, frustrated, while others near them are doing well with their short float set up. My usual practice is to walk over to them and politely ask them if they'd like some help with their set up. Most ppl say, yeah sure, I wanna catch some fish! After some gear mods and a quick explanation of how to fish some ppl are generally appreciative. And if they keep doing the damn RIP at the end of their cast I'll tell them that is completely unnecessary fishing this way, and is more likely to just scare the fish off.
I have encountered the odd person who did not take well to the unsolicited advice and told me to F off and mind my own business. No problem. Usually after they snag up for the 10th time, loose all their gear and catch no fish they pack up and leave.
As for the people who know how to fish properly but go snagging/dipping just to bring some fish home and post some pics on facebook? Shame on you. Especially if you are teaching your friends/kids that this is the proper way to float fish for salmon.
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beliefs are not ethics, in particular personal beliefs are not ethics. More relevant is what thinking is involved in arriving at a personal ethical belief.
Ethics involve well founded standard of right and wrong, what people ought to do in terms of rights, rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Theses are both prospective, what not to do and ways they ought to act.
Secondly ethics is a branch of thought that deals with issues of right and wrong what actions are ethical or not and why. Most often ethics are situational and increasingly ethics involves broad principles on what to do in specific situations. Ethics are not set in stone.
As I have said before in a number of threads & discussion sport fishing is less and less consistent with what ethicists consider ethical. At a minimum we should all consider that before we spout off all self righteous about those who fish in ways we find distasteful or inconsistent with our values or those of our 'group'.
If personal beliefs are not ethics, then how does one even have a personal ethical belief?
This is getting way over my head. I'm just a dumb trucker who likes to catch fish. I've been commented on my superb C&R techniques numerous times ( mostly on the Wack during steelhead season)
I treat all fish I'm releasing with respect and handle carefully so i can impale it later maybe for my own greedy enjoyment :P
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beliefs are not ethics, in particular personal beliefs are not ethics. More relevant is what thinking is involved in arriving at a personal ethical belief.
Ethics involve well founded standard of right and wrong, what people ought to do in terms of rights, rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Theses are both prospective, what not to do and ways they ought to act.
Secondly ethics is a branch of thought that deals with issues of right and wrong what actions are ethical or not and why. Most often ethics are situational and increasingly ethics involves broad principles on what to do in specific situations. Ethics are not set in stone.
As I have said before in a number of threads & discussion sport fishing is less and less consistent with what ethicists consider ethical. At a minimum we should all consider that before we spout off all self righteous about those who fish in ways we find distasteful or inconsistent with our values or those of our 'group'.
If personal beliefs are not ethics, then how does one even have a personal ethical belief?
This over analyzing is way over my head. I'm just a dumb trucker who likes to catch fish.
I treat all fish I'm releasing with respect and handle carefully so i can impale it later maybe for my own greedy enjoyment :P and for survival of the stocks whether it be harchery fed or not.is that ethical? Honest yes. The bottom line is if you fish you enjoy impaling fish and dragging it Around a body of water before it gets so tired it gives up on life and submits. Is that ethical?
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Nice hyperbole. I fished for trout for 20 years using bait and rarely lost a fish.
It's not hyperbole it's science. There are dozens of studies including studies done here on the West Coast that confirm mortality can be well over 40% for rainbow, cutthroat, brook trout and bulltrout. Other species such as bass and walleye also exhibit far higher mortality than artificials.
If personal beliefs are not ethics, then how does one even have a personal ethical belief?
if it personal & not shared by most of society it's pointless. if it is shared but doesn't have a consistency with ethical principles - but rather is some silly rules - like when I went to grade school girls were not allowed to wear blue jeans - it's also pointless.
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It can't be only about the meat. I think lots of those "anglers" sumply don't know any better and reducing limits isn't gonna take them off the water. Look at Stave, people will BB all day just to get two decomposed spawners, then what about Steelhead flossing? It's quite popular believe it or not it's actually what they do in the States, corkies, wool and lead.
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That's a generic statement if ever I've heard one. Have you ever actually fished in say Washington state?
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It can't be only about the meat. I think lots of those "anglers" sumply don't know any better and reducing limits isn't gonna take them off the water. Look at Stave, people will BB all day just to get two decomposed spawners, then what about Steelhead flossing? It's quite popular believe it or not it's actually what they do in the States, corkies, wool and lead.
There is a difference between "true" bottom bouncing and fraser style flossing bottom bouncing. I have never tried the true style, but as I understand it there is some sort of weight (pencil, slinky, or whatever) that does "bounce" along the bottom. However, it my understanding that the leader is SHORT like if you were fishing with a float. I believe the purpose it to dance your offering along the bottom and entice a fish to bite your corky that is suspended off the bottom.
This differs from the type of bottom bouncing you see around here with a long (sometimes stupid long) leader that flosses the fish in the mouth.
I asked someone in Freds's years back why no one does the "true" bottom bouncing on the Vedder and I was told the bottom is generally so rocky/snaggy you would just lose gear every 2nd cast. Moreover, this style of bbing is suited for a gravel bottom generally free of snags.
Similarly, there is a diff between "proper" float fishing where the fish sees your offering and decides to hammer it, and "grip it and rip it" float fishing with a long leader, a rip at the end of the drift, clearly trying to floss/snag a fish not get it to bite.
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It's not hyperbole it's science. There are dozens of studies including studies done here on the West Coast that confirm mortality can be well over 40% for rainbow, cutthroat, brook trout and bulltrout. Other species such as bass and walleye also exhibit far higher mortality than artificials.
if it personal & not shared by most of society it's pointless. if it is shared but doesn't have a consistency with ethical principles - but rather is some silly rules - like when I went to grade school girls were not allowed to wear blue jeans - it's also pointless.
List one.
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so bouncing on the bottom is not a bottom bouncing, I think it's now all clear to me :P
@Noah
I've never had the opportunity to fish in Washington, but I was reading a book by an American author called "Drift fishing for Steelhead" and about a 1/3 way trough I realized there's no mention of floats anywhere, as well as not much else than spinning reels as far as reel tackle goes.
I realize though this is just a book though and doesn't represent the whole community, all I'm saying is according to this book and numerous magazines this IS a popular way of salmon/steelhead fishing down South.
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"True bottom bouncing" if thats the term we are using now, can be useful in rivers that have very deep pools where float fishing is not practical without a slip float setup. The Vedder doesnt have too many sections like that so its not a required technique there. Back in the day my friend used to really well BB'ing ghost shrimp for steelhead in one or two deep Vedder pools.
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When I was first exposed to fishing the Vedder back the late '80's, I was taught the pencil lead should lightly tap along the bottom using a 18" leader. If you were feeling heavy taps then you would need to shorten your float. Wasn't until a few years ago that I learned the short floating technique. Sometimes all one needs is a little nudge in the right direction with some good information.
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"True bottom bouncing" if thats the term we are using now, can be useful in rivers that have very deep pools where float fishing is not practical without a slip float setup. The Vedder doesnt have too many sections like that so its not a required technique there. Back in the day my friend used to really well BB'ing ghost shrimp for steelhead in one or two deep Vedder pools.
unfortunately, "bottom bouncing" has become synonymous with the Fraser River meat fishery...a lot of people don't know it's been around since the '50s as a legitimate form of jigging used while surf fishing or while jigging off a boat over sand bars. This technique stirred up the sand which attracted predatory fish hence the term bottom bouncing.
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It's not hyperbole it's science. There are dozens of studies including studies done here on the West Coast that confirm mortality can be well over 40% for rainbow, cutthroat, brook trout and bulltrout. Other species such as bass and walleye also exhibit far higher mortality than artificials.
if it personal & not shared by most of society it's pointless. if it is shared but doesn't have a consistency with ethical principles - but rather is some silly rules - like when I went to grade school girls were not allowed to wear blue jeans - it's also pointless.
I'd like to read this study to see what the variables are . What size hook was used ? What bait ? Etc . It's no secret a tiny hook and a dew worm is gonna deep hook small trout. As far as salmon go , extremely rare in my experience to gut hook salmon , I've had it happen a few times over thousands upon thousands of fish and usually it's jack chinook . I can count on one hand how many deep hooked steelhead I've had woth a couple thousand hooked . I've gut hooked a ton of bulls on flies , they are so predatory it doesn't matter what you use you will hook a few deep , the same goes for rainbows with dry flies or steelhead for that matter . If your trying to eliminate mortality stop fishing
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I'll get the popcorn
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/DKJhx9l_zpsazmjc9u9.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/DKJhx9l_zpsazmjc9u9.gif.html)
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When I was first exposed to fishing the Vedder back the late '80's, I was taught the pencil lead should lightly tap along the bottom using a 18" leader. If you were feeling heavy taps then you would need to shorten your float. Wasn't until a few years ago that I learned the short floating technique. Sometimes all one needs is a little nudge in the right direction with some good information.
Right and then we got the hard plastic gob of roe - there was no soft gooey bob then.
Honestly, if I saw someone with pencil lead and an 18" leader I don't think I would batt an eye - I would look at his gear to see if he was honestly going old school.
But it was different then - you would "feel and feed" the offering to the fish. It really wasn't a swing or as we now term "flossing".
I'm still at a bit of a loss as to when flossing came in. I left here in the early 80's and returned in '96. Talk about massive change in fishing techniques Batman. I went down to Herling Island with my big 8' spinning rod set-up only to stand there scratching my head at the kilometer long line up of fishermen with monster 10'6" baitcaster set up and 8' leaders. Weird or What?
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Right and then we got the hard plastic gob of roe - there was no soft gooey bob then.
Honestly, if I saw someone with pencil lead and an 18" leader I don't think I would batt an eye - I would look at his gear to see if he was honestly going old school.
But it was different then - you would "feel and feed" the offering to the fish. It really wasn't a swing or as we now term "flossing".
I'm still at a bit of a loss as to when flossing came in. I left here in the early 80's and returned in '96. Talk about massive change in fishing techniques Batman. I went down to Herling Island with my big 8' spinning rod set-up only to stand there scratching my head at the kilometer long line up of fishermen with monster 10'6" baitcaster set up and 8' leaders. Weird or What?
Good points Pat. When I was a pup ( mid to late sixties,) one of the best anglers on the Vedder was a Fishery Officer named Dave Teskey. He never used a float, always bottom bounced pencil lead on a short leader, used roe and fished deep water. His favorite water was the abutment, just south of the Vedder Bridge. This bugger caught a ton of fish.
I recall an early steelhead brood stock capture program in the upper Chilliwack, led by the CO of the time, Jim Rissling. Teskey, myself, and a few other locals were fishing the Box Canyon in the closed to angling area; we (thinking we were hotshots) were trying to float fish water about 15’ deep with very poor success … Dave schooled us big time using his technique!!
For sure, bottom bouncing using leaders 16-18 " length is effective and as “ethical” as any other style of angling, imo.
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I don't think I was on the river before 1970 - so Dave you've got a few more miles on the odometer than I do. :D
Teskey, Rissling - could you imagine if they could see today's sh*t show on the river?
Honestly though, I do believe today is better than 2 even 5 years ago.
I do believe there has been positive progress - but maybe its is just because there are less salmon and the fall fishers are slowly giving up hope to snag a few for the freezer.
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There is a difference between "true" bottom bouncing and fraser style flossing bottom bouncing. I have never tried the true style, but as I understand it there is some sort of weight (pencil, slinky, or whatever) that does "bounce" along the bottom. However, it my understanding that the leader is SHORT like if you were fishing with a float. I believe the purpose it to dance your offering along the bottom and entice a fish to bite your corky that is suspended off the bottom.
This differs from the type of bottom bouncing you see around here with a long (sometimes stupid long) leader that flosses the fish in the mouth.
I asked someone in Freds's years back why no one does the "true" bottom bouncing on the Vedder and I was told the bottom is generally so rocky/snaggy you would just lose gear every 2nd cast. Moreover, this style of bbing is suited for a gravel bottom generally free of snags.
Similarly, there is a diff between "proper" float fishing where the fish sees your offering and decides to hammer it, and "grip it and rip it" float fishing with a long leader, a rip at the end of the drift, clearly trying to floss/snag a fish not get it to bite.
what we call "True bottom bouncing" is called drift fishing in pretty much the rest of North America. It is often the go to method bottom rocky bottoms on rivers with rocky bottoms such as the C/V. It is just much, much more difficult to master than short floating. It is all done by feel; every rock, gravel patch, and log on the bottom. Then you have to learn to know what is a hit and what is bottom. Watching a float is just easier and can be just as effective sometimes. But to me, a slinky, a short leader, and corkie is the picture of winter steelheading. If I see a person successfully drift fishing I am impressed, not offended.
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List one.
https://henrysfork.org/files/Rob%20Blog/C%26R%20mortality%20review.pdf page 2 Schisler and Bergersen (1996) on rainbow trout with actively fished bait average mortality was 45.7% with passively fished bait it 78.3%
there are many many more dating back 40+ years
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But it was different then - you would "feel and feed" the offering to the fish. It really wasn't a swing or as we now term "flossing".
it was and is a swing
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it was and is a swing
Hmmm - well it seemed like the right think to do back then. Can't argue if it was a swing or not but there surely was a swing at the end of the drift/bounce. Now it's no longer the accepted method - I won't argue that either. For me that method is no longer what I prefer to use. Methods evolve, this one evolved into something ugly. We look at things differently now.
In the meantime - if my shoulder gets better before the season is gone, I might get out there with my switch rod and give the muddler a swing and tug.
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I think people need to see the difference between snagging fish and flossing them.
When I was first fishing I used to think all flossers were scumbags as they are made out to be on these forums, but then after fishing a few rivers on the island and realizing that most of the locals indeed floss a lot of fish I began to have a different opinion.
Most of the locals were very friendly, using short leaders (still long but were not talking 10 ft here) , and not ripping at the end of their drifts. Fish were all being hooked in the mouth and very few foul hooks...
Yet they were being flossed.
Of course the fish were NOT biting and being flossed, but right in the mouth as per regulations, and not being snagged.
I realize most of you are talking about the classic grip/rippers on the vedder and yes they are horrible because A) their rips at the end of every drift turn off the bite and B) many fish are foulhooked as a result of long leaders and ripping
I always short float but now realize that flossing is a way that many people fish on MANY rivers and and always have. I think the main issue is their ripping on every cast, long leaders on shallow rivers, and bouncing weights disturbing others and fish.
Anyways...