Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: swimmingwiththefishes on November 09, 2015, 12:10:14 PM
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hey guys,
As much as I enjoy the FF issue, and believe it to be an issue that should be discussed regularly, I think it has also taken over the debate at times.
I've included a couple of interesting links here to get this discussion going because I think our wild salmon/steelhead advocacy needs to be considering the Harbour Seal explosion that has occurred over the last two decades. Especially as I believe ongoing research will show, that Seals eat large numbers of Salmon/Steelhead Smolts and of course perhaps equally important, eat vast amounts of herring. It seems silly to be putting in all this effort into habitat and hatcheries and also ignoring this.
The first link from a conference on the Skagit Steelhead really got me thinking about this. There is also some interesting research being done by the PSC. See below.
Conference presentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNcRwz3F0h4
Current PSC research project
https://www.psf.ca/blog/seal-beanies-reach-milestone
DFO Population Assessment
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/338997.pdf
Thoughts???
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My thoughts are that the commercial fisheries, poachers take way too much, and pollution impacts. The human population is the biggest impact on fish. Seals have an impact but not anywhere near the biggest.
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My thoughts are that the commercial fisheries, poachers take way too much, and pollution impacts. The human population is the biggest impact on fish. Seals have an impact but not anywhere near the biggest.
And don't foget the FF too. :-X
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And don't foget the FF too. :-X
Chris, that’s a weak response to a serious issue raised by swimmingwiththefishes.
There is no doubt seals are a concern regarding salmon mortalities. I’ve seen firsthand how Fraser River seals are habituated to the Albion chinook test fishery; often they would get more chinooks than we samplers, and I have had many, many sockeye taken by seals while sampling sockeye from chartered gill netters. These seals are like trained dogs; the boats leave the docks and the seals leave their log booms to get lunch. Their ability to remove fish from a drifting gillnet, while not getting caught themselves, is uncanny. But in the bigger picture, they take far less than FN gillnets further up river that we always sanction.
His concerns regarding smolt predation mortalities are, I suspect, bang on as well. Herring… well, perhaps humans are the worst offenders regarding this species.
Not sure how to resolve this as I doubt the general public would have much appetite for a seal cull, but I do believe predators are a factor in our declining salmonid populations. Having said that I believe climate change and human encroachment is by far the biggest factor.
Salmon farms, not so much.
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This was from 2010. Talk about this subject should go on. Thanks Swimmer :)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/seals-sea-lions-devastating-west-coast-salmon-runs/article4352730/?service=mobile
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maybe it's time we explore a great blue heron cull...how many salmon fry and smolts do those things eat?! Also we should explore culling kingfishers, otters, eagles, ospreys, cormorants, predatory fish like cutthroat, orcas, seagulls, porpoises and pacific loons. ::)
seriously though, seems ignorant to me to want to focus on culling seals and largely ignore something as impactful as gravel mining salmon spawning grounds or clear cutting entire watersheds...if you think culling seals is going to make a difference imagine what halting something like gravel mining river beds would do...
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maybe it's time we explore a great blue heron cull...how many salmon fry and smolts do those things eat?! Also we should explore culling kingfishers, otters, eagles, ospreys, cormorants, predatory fish like cutthroat, orcas, seagulls, porpoises and pacific loons. ::)
seriously though, seems ignorant to me to want to focus on culling seals and largely ignore something as impactful as gravel mining salmon spawning grounds or clear cutting entire watersheds...if you think culling seals is going to make a difference imagine what halting something like gravel mining river beds would do...
Actually, they are doing some of that down south. Why? Because they don't like putting in time and resources to fish production only to have that wiped out.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/11/141118-shooting-cormorants-columbia-river-salmon-endangered-species-environment/
I agree with everyone who's posted all raise good points. Although I actually think that Smolt predation could be a huge factor on certain stocks if the research is telling us anything.
It is not easy to figure out and generally I don't like killing to prevent killing, however, if we are going to put in all this money, time, and resources into producing Salmon especially by way of hatcheries only to have them be food for Seals then we may want to consider actions such as these even if it's uncomfortable.
Perhaps the solution is to start Seal farms, and stick them all in pens so that they can catch each other's viruses and breath their own feces and then a whole bunch will die a 'natural' death...okay that had to be said just so FarmerBob and Dave don't get off the hook;)
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Carefull now Swimmer, you know how Nova feels about people stepping over the line. LOL :)
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Here some good research that will give us a handle on where to go. Btw this Salish Sea project looks fantastic...
http://marinesurvivalproject.com/research_activity/list/predation/
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Prior to the 70s the Harbour seal population in the Salish Sea was quite low compared to now in my experience. Sighting a seal was an uncommon occurrence. The question is why has the population increased so much? I suspect that it is because in an earlier age when the human population was much lower and the coast largely remote, seals were shot on sight. The seals were very wary as a result and stealing salmon off your line was a cause for considerable amazement. Are there other reasons for the seal population increase? Surely it isn't due to increased food supply. Fewer Orcas?
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Pinnapid populations on the Canadian west coast are currently at record highs while these seal and sea loin numbers in Alaska are alarmingly low. There not sure why. It's difficult to find information on these numbers.
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Briefly skimmed this topic, but to me this issue is akin to culling wolves to protect the caribou...
To me the problem lies at a management level, like a lot of things.
Furthermore, some firm numbers on the "damage" to salmon populations would need be assessed before any action.
Overall, the previous posts have kind of said it all... lets just kill everything that eats salmon..... maybe the killer whales too.
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What is funny about this topic is that those that angry about seals dying in ocean net pens have no problem with a seal cull.
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Briefly skimmed this topic, but to me this issue is akin to culling wolves to protect the caribou...
To me the problem lies at a management level, like a lot of things.
Furthermore, some firm numbers on the "damage" to salmon populations would need be assessed before any action.
Overall, the previous posts have kind of said it all... lets just kill everything that eats salmon..... maybe the killer whales too.
I have seen some of the damage first hand. Maybe things are different now but I know back in the 80s and 90s out on a gillnetter, we would often get salmon with bites taken out of them. It was obvious when the seal was hungry and when they weren't. If they were hungry, fish we had seen previously would be completely removed or maybe you would get a head. If they weren't, you would have a bite taken right out of the belly at the back. This makes the fish completely unsellable and unless it is something where you want to take it home and try and salvage the fish, it often just gets tossed over the side.
The problem comes when only a certain number of fish are allowed to be caught. If some of those fish are caught but then discarded and therefore not counted, additional fish get caught to replace those.
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I have seen some of the damage first hand. Maybe things are different now but I know back in the 80s and 90s out on a gillnetter, we would often get salmon with bites taken out of them. It was obvious when the seal was hungry and when they weren't. If they were hungry, fish we had seen previously would be completely removed or maybe you would get a head. If they weren't, you would have a bite taken right out of the belly at the back. This makes the fish completely unsellable and unless it is something where you want to take it home and try and salvage the fish, it often just gets tossed over the side.
The problem comes when only a certain number of fish are allowed to be caught. If some of those fish are caught but then discarded and therefore not counted, additional fish get caught to replace those.
I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically... anyways.
Your comment is a classic example of fisherman using their first hand perspective/experiences and expanding them to a "large scale fact". We have all been guilty of it, including myself. An example of this is people (fisherman) saying things like "there are a lot of bucks this year" (based on their very insignificant personal sample size of a population). My point is that people should do some research on the topics they claim to have an answer to and not just suggest that their relatively unsubstantial experiences are the direct cause and effect.
Touching on your last sentence, you are actually required (for many commercial salmon fisheries) to record all your "released" fish (at sea observers aid in this assessment as well). Fisheries managers will then apply a mortality rate to those released fish and they are counted against your quota as if you had retained them. Fisherman would should and probably do consider this when fishing.
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At one time the sea lions were the top of the marine food chain, we can replace them, but there are not enough salmon to go around if we plan on sharing with them, up untill the 1960's the fisheries would machine gun them in their breeding grounds, I personally think that was an excellent idea albeit a tad politically incorrect in todays' world. Seriously there has to be some sort of control, we are the alpha predator now and there is no room for an over population of sea lions and seals there are just not enough fish to go around any more there are way too many humans living here to ever think there is some sort of balance of nature still.
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At one time the sea lions were the top of the marine food chain, we can replace them, but there are not enough salmon to go around if we plan on sharing with them, up untill the 1960's the fisheries would machine gun them in their breeding grounds, I personally think that was an excellent idea albeit a tad politically incorrect in todays' world. Seriously there has to be some sort of control, we are the alpha predator now and there is no room for an over population of sea lions and seals there are just not enough fish to go around any more there are way too many humans living here to ever think there is some sort of balance of nature still.
nosey, Orcas can eat 100 to 300 lbs of salmon every day and are the real apex predator in the ocean would you suggest we eliminate or control them as well?
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well machine guns for seals, might as well use depth charges for the orcas. could make for great whale watching tours.
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Check this site out
https://seaworld.org/en/animal-info/animal-infobooks/killer-whale/diet-and-eating-habits (https://seaworld.org/en/animal-info/animal-infobooks/killer-whale/diet-and-eating-habits)
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I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically... anyways.
Your comment is a classic example of fisherman using their first hand perspective/experiences and expanding them to a "large scale fact". We have all been guilty of it, including myself. An example of this is people (fisherman) saying things like "there are a lot of bucks this year" (based on their very insignificant personal sample size of a population). My point is that people should do some research on the topics they claim to have an answer to and not just suggest that their relatively unsubstantial experiences are the direct cause and effect.
Touching on your last sentence, you are actually required (for many commercial salmon fisheries) to record all your "released" fish (at sea observers aid in this assessment as well). Fisheries managers will then apply a mortality rate to those released fish and they are counted against your quota as if you had retained them. Fisherman would should and probably do consider this when fishing.
Required? I guess it might make a difference that I was on a gill netter in Washington fishing right off Point Roberts. No recording of "released" fish was required or heck, even asked for except for a couple times toward the end of when we had the boat and then it was just an estimate and once or twice a year. There were no at sea observers for fish. We had one come along once for birds though when there was a huge uproar about a certain type of diving bird that they thought was getting caught in nets and dying.
And it wasn't just my experience. I was involved in many discussions with other fishermen on how to try and reduce the number of fish lost. Guns were the top method, firecrackers to try and destroy their inner ear was another or at least scare them off. There was not a fisherman out there that would mourn the loss of a seal.
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Hate killing anything that's alive.
Maybe it will come to a point that harbour seal populations will be controlled.
Was just reading on the web today ( Vancouver Sun ) there's something like 40,000 seals in the Georgia Straight. Story told of 5% of what the seals ate was salmon.
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Hate killing anything that's alive.
Maybe it will come to a point that harbour seal populations will be controlled.
Was just reading on the web today ( Vancouver Sun ) there's something like 40,000 seals in the Georgia Straight. Story told of 5% of what the seals ate was salmon.
Yes. Good work coming out of the Pacific Salmon Foundation on this issue and part of the reason for my original post on this. Have a read.
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/seals+blamed+drop+juvenile+salmon+stocks+strait+georgia+study/11673383/story.html?__lsa=e32e-7e5d
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http://www.sealsandsealing.net/products.php?page=5&id=2&prod=1
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Uh, have you taste tested this recipe ::)
If so, please tell us how you rated it.
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Like farmed salmon but without the Slice bitterness. :) try it you'll like it
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Like farmed salmon but without the Slice bitterness. :) try it you'll like it
Think I'll pass :D
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I want a coat like our new Fisheries Minister's: https://twitter.com/HunterTootoo/status/689526835466649602/photo/1
And, a tie: https://twitter.com/DFO_NL/status/686560187231145984/photo/1
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What is funny about this topic is that those that angry about seals dying in ocean net pens have no problem with a seal cull.
What seals dying in ocean net pens? Kind of confused.Can you clarify?
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What seals dying in ocean net pens? Kind of confused.Can you clarify?
A byproduct of having mesh pens holding farmed salmon is that they attract predators, like seals. Occasionally they get caught in the mesh and die, like the many accidently caught by commercial fishermen that you never hear about. Or the ones shot by FN in the Fraser that you also don't hear about.
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Seals have more or less recovered to historical populations levels prior to extensive hunting and bounty programs intended to reduce their numbers. So did salmon numbers increase during the close to 100 years seal populations were driven to numbers far below historic levels? AFAIK they did not, quite the reverse.
Most seal/salmon predation issues are associated with human activity, the Albion Chinook Test Fishery being a case in point. Concentrated hatchery releases & returns that are bound to attract numbers of seals. Channelizing river estuaries and temporary and permanent structures that offer seals haul out and rest zones within salmon migration routes. Maybe some of those thyings need to be redesigned or perhaps individual problem seals need to be shot much as COs shoot problem bears.
A broad cull which will be opposed by every environmental and animal advocacy group is bound to cause a political s_it storm. Given that there is little or rational for it, the fishing and angling community that supports it will look foolish - something it is really good at and a habit it can't seem to shake. Better to be selective perhaps relying on FN harvests and selective culling of problem animals. Long term it would be best to design harbour structures & hatchery release patterns.
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Seals are not the species that need to be culled.... 8)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytpnElPI_E
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytpnElPI_E
Lol
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I for one would really like to see them culled.
There is no valid reason there should be 180,000 of them in the Georgia strait.
There are not enough transient whales to eat them, no one hunts them, and they are easily trained to be horrible pests.
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New
Study says seals eat more Chinook than Southern residents
Hayley Day
Contributed photo/Phil Green A harbor seal eats salmon in the San Juan Channel.
Seals are eating more Chinook than Southern resident killer whales.
That’s bad for both endangered species’ recoveries.
“The seals might not be the enemy as much as the problem is that we’ve lost forage fish available to them,” said Joe Gaydos, science director of the SeaDoc Society on Orcas Island.
According to a recent Canadian study, the amount of Chinook salmon eaten by seals in the Salish Sea has increased from 68 metric tons in 1970 to 625 metric tons in 2015. That’s double the amount Southern resident killer whales ate in 2015 in the same location, and six times more than commercial and recreational fisheries according to the study.
Lesanna Lahner of SR3 (Sealife Response, Rehabilitation and Research) in Snohomish County, said salmon are not seals’ first food choice.
“When the ecosystem is balanced and forage fish are available, we know that harbor seals and sea lions will preferentially eat those forage fish and leave the salmon alone,” said Lahner.
The population of seals’ main food source of the smaller, forage or bait fish, according to additional recent studies, are depleting due to toxins in the water and overfishing, Lahner added.
Those are similar threats to the Chinook salmon, which have been listed under the Endangered Species Act since 1999, and are the Southern resident orcas main food source. Southern resident killer whales live in the waters surrounding the San Juan Islands for parts of the year.
Harbor seals were hunted for sport until 1972, according to the study. In the Salish Sea, they are now at the same levels they were 100 years ago, before human interaction, said Lahner.
However, there are currently only 78 Southern resident killer whales, compared to the 220 recorded by the Center for Whale Research’s first study in 1976. The Southern residents lost seven orcas since 2016, alone. The loss of Chinook salmon is one of 10 threats to killer whales, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
According to the recent study, seals are eating the smaller, juvenile Chinook, migrating from the streams where they were hatched, to the ocean. The report estimates roughly 162,000 adult Chinook never make it to the Salish Sea, each year.
“This project is really looking at when seals are eating young salmon that are migrating out, so it’s not the big salmon people are catching on their fishing poles,” said Gaydos.
However, predation by marine mammals is not a threat to the Chinook or Southern residents recovery, said Lahner. The seal increase may be the indirect cause of orcas deaths, but the decrease in forage fish is the direct cause.
“It’s kind of like saying, if a person dies of smoke cigarettes, they died of a heart attack, when ultimately it was the cigarettes that caused the death,” said Lahner. “We should be looking at the cigarettes, not the heart disease.”
According to Gaydos, seals eat up to 60 different varieties of fish in the Salish Sea. Southern resident orcas only eat certain types of salmon (mostly Chinook) and will go hungry if they aren’t available, said Lahner.
The study, said Gaydos, gives an additional reason for the Chinook population decrease, but not all the reasons why.
“The seals are doing what they’ve always done, but because we’ve changed the streams and damaged the habitat for the salmon spawning areas, that’s more of an issue now,” said Gaydos. “The study doesn’t give us all the answers, but lets us know we need to pay attention to something else.”
For more information on Salish Sea marine wildlife, contact the SeaDoc Society at seadoc@seadocsociety.org or 376-3910 or visit www.seadocsociety.org.
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WATCH: Man vs. mammal, commercial herring fisherman films sea lion feeding frenzy
http://globalnews.ca/news/3314792/watch-man-vs-mammal-commercial-herring-fisherman-films-sea-lion-feeding-frenzy/
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Carefull now Swimmer, you know how Nova feels about people stepping over the line. LOL :)
l. Why don't you meet me for lunch sometime Bawb? My treat! No guts? Why would you be afraid of me? I'm harmless. LOL!
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Sounds like a setup. He'll probably goad you into bitch slapping him and then have his highly trained legal friends sue you, I would be very careful Bob.
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Sounds like a setup. He'll probably goad you into bitch slapping him and then have his highly trained legal friends sue you, I would be very careful Bob.
Naw Gordo - you can come too - Anything you want off the value menu. ;D I just have a thing with being called a liar when it's unfounded and untrue. I'm 60 years old with a heart condition.
BTW - I apologize for not sending this post for your approval. It won't happen again. ;)
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Salmon House On tThe Hill Bawb and Gordo?
No synthetic salmon.....
STARTERS
~
HOME MADE BREAD
SMOKED WILD SALMON BUTTER ~ 3.50 EACH
FRESH LOCAL OYSTERS
SHALLOT AND RED WINE MIGNONETTE ~ 3.50 EACH
WEST COAST OYSTER SHOOTER
SPICY TOMATO CONFIT AND 1/2 oz VODKA ~ 7.00 EACH
PAN SEARED SCALLOP
TOMATO CONFIT, BASIL PESTO, CANDIED SALMON AND MICRO GREENS ~ 6.00 EACH
SALMON HOUSE SEAFOOD CHOWDER
MANHATTAN STYLE ~ 8.00
SMOKED WILD BC SALMON ON ROCKET SALAD
WASABI TOBIKO, CHIVES AND GRILLED LEMON VINAIGRETTE ~ 11.00
SMOKED SALMON WRAPPED DUNGENESS CRAB SALAD
CANDIED SALMON, AVOCADOS, ROASTED GARLIC OIL ~ 15.50
SUSTAINABLE CAVIAR SELECTION
TRADITIONAL GARNISHES ~ MARKET PRICE
APPETIZERS
~
HOUSE CAESAR SALAD
SHAVED PARMIGIANO, BACON TUILE AND BANNOCK HERB GARLIC CROUTONS ~ 9.50
TOGARASHI SEARED RARE SASHIMI ALBACORE TUNA
QUINOA SALAD, ARUGULA, CHICKPEA, MANGO AND SWEET PEPPER
CILANTRO AND LIME VINAIGRETTE ~ 16.00
KING CRAB LEGS
BASIL HOLLANDAISE, TOBIKO CAVIAR AND VEGETABLE SLAW ~ 23.00
BAYNES SOUND MANILA CLAMS OR SALT SPRING MUSSELS
TOMATO LIME COCONUT BROTH, KENNEBEC FRIES, LEMON MAYO ~ 14.00
CHILI PRAWN SPRING ROLLS
FENNEL AND APPLE SLAW, HONEY PASSION FRUIT VINAIGRETTE ~ 15.00
BEEF TENDERLOIN CARPACCIO
BABY ARUGULA, ENOKI MUSHROOMS, SHAVED PARMIGIANO
CHIPOTLE PEPPER AIOLI AND SEA SALT GAUFRETTES ~ 16.00
DUCK LEG CONFIT
FENNEL AND APPLE SALAD, MAPLE BALSAMIC, ORANGE PARSLEY VINAIGRETTE ~ 13.00
SALMON HOUSE SAMPLER
SEARED SCALLOP & CANDIED SALMON
TOGARASHI ALBACORE TUNA SASHIMI & CILANTRO LIME VINAIGRETTE
PRAWN SPRING ROLL, APPLE & FENNEL SLAW ~ 19.00
MAINS
~
ALDER GRILLED PROSCIUTTO PESTO CRUSTED CHINOOK SALMON
SHRIMP, ARUGULA RISOTTO, GRILLED WHITE ASPARAGUS
PINK PEPPERCORN AND LEMON VINAIGRETTE ~ 33.00
ALDER GRILLED SALMON TRIO
CHINOOK, SOCKEYE AND COHO SALMON
LOBSTER AND PARMESAN MASHED POTATOES, LOBSTER BISQUE SAUCE ~ 35.00
ALDER GRILLED HAIDA GWAII SMOKED SABLE FISH
CRAB AND SPINACH DUMPLING VEGETABLE MEDLEY
SERVED WITH LIME COCONUT BROTH ~ 35.00
STEAMED DUNGENESS CRAB
SAUTE OF HARICOT VERT, CHESTNUTS, CHILIES & SHALLOTS
FINGERLING POTATOES & ROASTED GARLIC BUTTER SAUCE ~ MARKET PRICE
LOBSTER TAGLIATELLE PASTA
1LB LOBSTER, CHORIZO SAUSAGE, CLAMS, ASPARAGUS, GRAPE TOMATO
CARAMELIZED SHALLOTS, SPINACH & FRESH HERBS ~ 42.00
ALDER GRILLED SEAFOOD PAELLA
SOCKEYE SALMON, HALIBUT, PRAWNS, SCALLOP, SMOKED OYSTER
CLAM AND MUSSEL, CHORIZO SAUSAGE SERVED WITH GARLIC CROUSTADE ~ 37.00
SCALLION POTATO GNOCCHI & WILD MUSHROOM
BABY KALE, SCALLION, GARLIC, SHALLOTS & PARMESAN CHEESE ~ 28.00
ADD: 4 oz ATLANTIC LOBSTER TAIL ~ 18.50
PAN SEARED FRASER VALLEY DUCK BREAST
GOAT CHEESE POTATO PUREE, BABY SPINACH SAUTE
WARM SOUR CHERRY COMPOTE AND HONEY PASSION FRUIT VINAIGRETTE ~ 34.00
ALDER GRILLED BEEF TENDERLOIN
GARLIC MASHED POTATOES, GRILLED ASPARAGUS
KING CRAB, FLYING FISH ROE AND BEARNAISE SAUCE ~ 41.00
ALDER GRILLED HERB MARINATED RACK OF LAMB
SAUTE SCALLION GNOCCHI, BABY ARUGULA, TOMATO CONFIT
ROASTED SHALLOT AND GOAT CHEESE JUS ~ 42.00
“SEAFOOD TOWER — FOR TWO PEOPLE ~ $75.00“
___
CHILLED
SMOKED SALMON, FRESH OYSTERS AND CHILLED PRAWNS
SEAFOOD BOWL
CLAMS, MUSSELS, PRAWNS, SALMON AND HALIBUT
FINGERLING POTATOES, LEMONGRASS COCONUT BROTH
ALDER GRILLED BANNOCK BREAD
ALDER GRILLED
SOCKEYE SALMON, HALIBUT AND PRAWNS
TOMATO CONFIT AND GRILLED ASPARAGUS
“SEAFOOD TOWER — FOR TWO PEOPLE ~ $100.00“
___
CHILLED
DUNGENESS CRAB SALAD, CANDIED SALMON AND TUNA SASHIMI
ALDER GRILLED SABLE FISH & TEMPURA PRAWNS
BABY POTATOES IN A THAI CURRY BROTH
ALDER GRILLED
TWO LOBSTER TAILS AND SCALLOPS
GRILLED ASPARAGUS, LEMON BUTTER SAUCE
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https://www.vanaqua.org/learn/aquafacts/the-aquarium/marine-mammal-rescue-program
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Mukluks! ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakapik ;)
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Naw Gordo - you can come too - Anything you want off the value menu. ;D I just have a thing with being called a liar when it's unfounded and untrue. I'm 60 years old with a heart condition.
BTW - I apologize for not sending this post for your approval. It won't happen again. ;)
Who called you a liar Nova?
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Who called you a liar Nova?
\\
::) go sift through the 175 page thread Bawb.....I think it's best we ignore each other - unless you want to do the lunch thing. I'll be a while as I'm going to be getting some work done on my small black heart in the next little bit.
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Didn't think so :)