Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: fishseeker on August 30, 2015, 01:35:38 PM
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Now they have opened the Tidal Fraser for Chinook retention does that mean fishing there purely for catch and release purposes is feasible now?
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Yes and no.
You cannot target species that are not open to retention.
IF you accidentally catch a fish not open to retention it must be released.
You cannot target Pinks or Sockeye for C and R purposes and though accidents may happen, fishing with methods that would normally be used to target species that are closed (at the moment) may cause you undo grief.
Why do so many seem to search for a loophole.
Be patient.
I don't think anyone has it in for the Sportfisherman, though it may seem like that at times.
This has been a strange year for weather and the eventual future returns will be determined by how well it is managed and maintained.
We should be more interested in the resources survival than concerned with our own personal gratifications.
No fish are wasted in nature, alive to spawn or dead to nourish the environment.
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Yes and no.
You cannot target species that are not open to retention.
IF you accidentally catch a fish not open to retention it must be released.
You cannot target Pinks or Sockeye for C and R purposes and though accidents may happen, fishing with methods that would normally be used to target species that are closed (at the moment) may cause you undo grief.
Why do so many seem to search for a loophole.
Be patient.
I don't think anyone has it in for the Sportfisherman, though it may seem like that at times.
This has been a strange year for weather and the eventual future returns will be determined by how well it is managed and maintained.
We should be more interested in the resources survival than concerned with our own personal gratifications.
No fish are wasted in nature, alive to spawn or dead to nourish the environment.
Umm..I am not searching for a loophole but thanks. Regulations can be confusing sometimes.
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You cannot target species that are not open to retention.
I dont think that's true at all and it's doesnt imply that anywhere in the regs I am aware of.
People target trout, dollies, bulls, cutties, salmon all the time in systems with no retention and we seem ok with that (ie Skagit, Squamish, Upper Pitt).
When there is conservation concern like there currently is for sockeye, the DFO is asking to limit impact on that species, which is fair enough. Targetting an otherwise closed species seems legal unless specified in the regs (ie no fishing for salmon, no fishing for sturgeon etc). Whether we should be doing so is another debate.
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I dont think that's true at all and it's doesnt imply that anywhere in the regs I am aware of.
People target trout, dollies, bulls, cutties, salmon all the time in systems with no retention and we seem ok with that (ie Skagit, Squamish, Upper Pitt).
When there is conservation concern like there currently is for sockeye, the DFO is asking to limit impact on that species, which is fair enough. Targetting an otherwise closed species seems legal unless specified in the regs (ie no fishing for salmon, no fishing for sturgeon etc). Whether we should be doing so is another debate.
I agree, from what I know unless it's closed you're OK to fish... Example, fresh supplement has some "no fishing" for certain species while river is open. I'm aware he's asking salt.
Assuming most at risk runs have passed I'd think the moral side is you're good to go even if no retention is allowed.
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I didn't explain myself properly.
I'll reread the Regs and and clarify my post later.
Sorry for any confusion.
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"Recreational fishing opportunities on the Fraser River for pink and chum salmon
are anticipated later in the season subject to available abundance. "
Sounds like it's still closed for pinks even for catch and release. If you catch one while targeting Chinook you have to release it.
As for targeting other species the notice that was put out was for salmon only.
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"Recreational fishing opportunities on the Fraser River for pink and chum salmon
are anticipated later in the season subject to available abundance. "
Sounds like it's still closed for pinks even for catch and release. If you catch one while targeting Chinook you have to release it.
As for targeting other species the notice that was put out was for salmon only.
Correct! Pinks and chum say NO FISHING FOR SALMON in the notes (gear section) section.
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/tidal-maree/fraser-eng.html
Chinook open to catch and release or retention.
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OK, so DFO was very clear that they don't want to see BBing for springs to avoid the by-catch impact on sockeye and we all agree on that, but in the list of recommended techniques it says spoon fishing is OK. Now can anyone clarify how do you spoon fish for Chinook selectively so that you avoid pinks?
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OK, so DFO was very clear that they don't want to see BBing for springs to avoid the by-catch impact on sockeye and we all agree on that, but in the list of recommended techniques it says spoon fishing is OK. Now can anyone clarify how do you spoon fish for Chinook selectively so that you avoid pinks?
Really big spoons?
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Really big spoons?
And why do you think pinks wouldn't take a large spoon? I think they'll take anything that has smaller hook than their mouth LOL. Also how big of a spoon is tolerated? Where do I find what' are allowed colors and sizes?
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OK, so DFO was very clear that they don't want to see BBing for springs to avoid the by-catch impact on sockeye and we all agree on that, but in the list of recommended techniques it says spoon fishing is OK. Now can anyone clarify how do you spoon fish for Chinook selectively so that you avoid pinks?
I'm pretty sure DFO could care less about pinks, understandably ..... Open it and you have a ton of pressure thus possibly hooking socks and maybe coho... If they were worried they'd just close it.
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I was joking. Chances of catching a spring on spoons in the lower Fraser is pretty near zero.
Retention is closed for Pinks, socks, and Coho but there is nothing in the regs to stop you from C&Ring 100 Pinks.
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Hi all, I'll have this clarified tomorrow. The information given by the resource manager, read in the fishery notice, and the permanent regulation page are all inconsistent and somewhat contradicting each other at this point.
BTW, while rare, it's not impossible to catch chinook salmon on a (small) spoon in the Tidal Fraser River. Over the years I have seen a few caught in late August and September.
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me confused again ... I just figured out situation with spoons in "salmon lures" topic , and now im completely lost .
if fraser open for springs , so I can cast any spoons , use bar rig with 2 hook with roe on it ?!
chances of getting spring in LF close to 0 , but bar rig+roe = many many coho . So whats the point opening one salmon specie , while you have way more chances to hook the one they protect ????
I just don't get it ....
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rod can you explain it please ? so far your arguments are the best .
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Seems pretty straight forward? Don't target sockeye!!! While in the salt I'm not sure what can be done differently but in the river as long as you are not BB and specifically targeting pinks/coho/sockeye you are good to go...
Who says they are protecting coho?
Seems they are giving a opportunity (when many things are closed) to fish for Chinook. Doesn't appear they are worried about the pink and coho salmon but very concerned about the sockeye. Open to catch and release of coho and more so pink salmon and the numbers may very well increase on the river I'm guessing. I'm sure the coho mortality rates are going to be quite low hence the opening.
On a side not the north arm appears blue on one of the DFO map... Zoom in and it's not but why the use green =salt, blue=fresh, and... Blue out line, lol. Almost fooled me as I know better but you'd think they'd use a different colour as barrow spots appear to be fresh water, lol. Got to love DFO's ways of doing things, lol.
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Seems pretty straight forward? Don't target sockeye!!! While in the salt I'm not sure what can be done differently but in the river as long as you are not BB and specifically targeting pinks/coho/sockeye you are good to go...
Who says they are protecting coho?
Seems they are giving a opportunity (when many things are closed) to fish for Chinook. Doesn't appear they are worried about the pink and coho salmon but very concerned about the sockeye. Open to catch and release of coho and more so pink salmon and the numbers may very well increase on the river I'm guessing. I'm sure the coho mortality rates are going to be quite low hence the opening.
lets be realistic , how can you catch sockeye in lower fraser ?! :)
how do u fish for Chinook ? spoons ? (most likely) or roe under bar rig ? we still talking about tidal fraser .
as mentioned above your chances are a bit over 0 to catch any but coho/pink in tidal .
regulation stated very clear - NO FISHING FOR SALMON (chum,pink,coho,sockeye) .
So if it is pretty straight forward like you said , where is the common sense ?!
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Read the fresh water supplement... Lots of water where you can fish one species and not another....no gear restrictions though... Why is this different? Lol
It's very, very, very clear they opened the river to Chinook, lol.... Maybe some got lazy on the gear section but it is very, very, very clearly open for Chinook.... Someone wrote a letter for a reason or really screwed up...
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Read the fresh water supplement... Lots of water where you can fish one species and not another....no gear restrictions though... Why is this different? Lol
I will repeat again , in this case im talking only about TIDAL Fraser . I don't care about fresh water . You said its pretty straight forward , and now trying to tell me to read about fresh water ... how this works ?! even topic says "TIDAL Fraser" , so maybe we should stick with the topic and discuss about tidal ?!
p.s. still waiting
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Lol you on drugs?....
Everyone knows where you are fishing and you clearly haven't read my last few posts.... I see your problem now...
It's an example that there are many places where one species is open and others not with no gear restrictions coming from the same source... DFO!!!
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http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=38406.0
that is my concern .
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if you read more careful that was DFO too . So what chances if I hack some roe on 2 hooks or start hacking some spoons and get all but the ones are open for ?! this is my point .
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Did they ticket you? If so bad policing and you could easily beat it in court although I'd phone the boss and explain your situation as it's not right! Backing down is never good as it does make you look guilty, but be very respectful and always know the law and rules to show them to prove your case.
Take a notice with you and show him and argue it, respectfully as it's on them to be clear in the rules.... The notice is pretty clear and it doesn't say closed for salmon in the permanent regs so legal sense your good to go as Chinook is your target species...
Posting your other topic would have been helpful in more precise answers!
Personally... I'd avoid lures at the moment and I'd phone and report the officer who questioned you and write a letter to document your situation and issue for future potential problems before its sorted out.... Ya, they answer to someone too!!! Fight the law with law tools!!!
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im really glad that we are discussing with respect to each other , but you still didn't answer my question :)
How does it make sense to open fraser for Chinook , if majority (if not full100%) will be by catch of the ones that are not allowed ?
The reason why I asking is because I DO CARE , and I know if I will go and try to catch Chinook in LF , chances are smaller than winning a lottery , but I do know for sure about by catch . So how does that make sense ?! Its pretty simple question , so I hope you will be able to answer it .
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Correct! Pinks and chum say NO FISHING FOR SALMON in the notes (gear section) section.
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/tidal-maree/fraser-eng.html
Chinook open to catch and release or retention.
The table shows the last notice that applied to each species, which for all other species was the the "no fishing for salmon" notice that also closed the river for Chinook. When they issued the Notice opening Chinook, they essentially opened the river to salmon fishing, however, the last notice that applied to the other species still shows in the table (no fishing for salmon). It just makes it confusing. Clearly the river is not closed (no fishing for salmon), so that notice should no longer show on any of the species. They should just all show 0 retention except Chinook.
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The table shows the last notice that applied to each species, which for all other species was the the "no fishing for salmon" notice that also closed the river for Chinook. When they issued the Notice opening Chinook, they essentially opened the river to salmon fishing, however, the last notice that applied to the other species still shows in the table (no fishing for salmon). It just makes it confusing. Clearly the river is not closed (no fishing for salmon), so that notice should no longer show on any of the species. They should just all show 0 retention except Chinook.
ty a lot , it wasn't that hard :) but I still wanna hear comment from Doja .
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Morals, don't fish then, lol.... I see why the DFO had a problem with you, lol...
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Morals, don't fish then, lol.... I see why the DFO had a problem with you, lol...
oh c`mon , that's not an answer ....
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btw im not fishing :) waiting for pinks opening in lf
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btw im not fishing :) waiting for pinks opening in lf
So you hand no interest in Chinook...?
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im just wondering if you read between the lines ?! :) check few posts about Chinook :)
p.s. I got mine in squamish already :) kissed and released :P
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hrenya, what answer do you want to hear?
The laws are coarsely written so there are many loopholes. You can choose to fish based on the strict letter of the regulation or you can choose to fish ethically.
You can't catch chinook from shore in the Richmond/Steveston area so ethically you shouldn't fish for them. The lower Fraser is open to selective fishing for chinooks so you are allowed to fish for them, even though you will only catch closed species.
Rod said he will clarify the regulation around, but the answer should be that C&R of closed species is allowed.
Similarly, there is nothing in the regulations stopping someone from C&Ring 100 pinks in the Squamish River a few weeks ago, but logically it is not a good thing for the fish stocks (and can't be that much fun after 30 fish).
If you want to catch chinook go to the bars around hope and bar fish (or plunk) for them.
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If you want to catch chinook go to the bars around hope and bar fish (or plunk) for them.
Lol you don't have to go that far. I catch many Chinook from shore each year by spin casting on the Tidal portion (usually above Langley/Maple Ridge with home made spinners instead of spoons). I find it helps if you learn to read the tides and solunar charts before targeting springs from shore in the Tidal Fraser. I ran out with my spinning rod a few hours before they closed the river a couple weeks back and picked up a nice red spring from shore, I find it way more effective than barfishing. Don't understand why it wouldn't be effective in the Richmond/Steveston area too?
@hrenya Maybe you are choosing poor spots for springs. There is a depth contour map of the lower Fraser by "Fish-n-Map Co." found in many tackle shops, it displays popular spots to fish for Chinook and other species in your area. I think it would be a valuable tool to have in your tackle box. If you are using very light tackle and spoons aren't working for you: maybe try something like a wedding band with a weight at the top of the leader, seen some big tidal fraser springs brought in with those. It's all about experimenting, if something isn't working then try something else...don't just stick with a couple sizes or types of presentations.
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Why is it ok to catch and release stealhead in the Thompson,but not pinks in the Fraser.
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Rod said he will clarify the regulation around, but the answer should be that C&R of closed species is allowed.
No, c&r of a closed species is not allowed. You can't go out catching and releasing pinks. You will get ticketed because you are clearly targeting a closed species. If you are targeting chinook and get one as bi-catch you have to release it. This is where wording is confusing.
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No, c&r of a closed species is not allowed. You can't go out catching and releasing pinks. You will get ticketed because you are clearly targeting a closed species. If you are targeting chinook and get one as bi-catch you have to release it. This is where wording is confusing.
Good one. I'd like to see someone charged tossing spoons and releasing a Pink. The judge would laugh the CO out of the courtroom.
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Good one. I'd like to see someone charged tossing spoons and releasing a Pink. The judge would laugh the CO out of the courtroom.
If someone was using pink spoons in a location where people clearly target pinks then there would be a ticket. Unfortunately I highly doubt a judge would go against a co.
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Closed for fishing and closed for retention are two different things. ie the Thompson Steelhead is a good example.
I think the current confusion is whether the latest fisheries notice that opens retention for chinook means that other species are closed for fishing or just retention.
Trying to think back regarding DFO openings from previous years, when they close waters for salmon fishing they have done so for all species. I cant ever recall a notice worded like 'No fishing for *SPECIFIC SALMON SPECIES*". Rather, they will reduce retention of the closed species to zero.
Take this chum closure from 2011 for instance:
http://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=136993&ID=all
Would one interpret that as 'no fishing for chum' and would one get a ticket for drifting a pink/purple jig? I doubt it.
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Closed for fishing and closed for retention are two different things. ie the Thompson Steelhead is a good example.
I think the current confusion is whether the latest fisheries notice that opens retention for chinook means that other species are closed for fishing or just retention.
Trying to think back regarding DFO openings from previous years, when they close waters for salmon fishing they have done so for all species. I cant ever recall a notice worded like 'No fishing for *SPECIFIC SALMON SPECIES*". Rather, they will reduce retention of the closed species to zero.
Take this chum closure from 2011 for instance:
http://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=136993&ID=all
Would one interpret that as 'no fishing for chum' and would one get a ticket for drifting a pink/purple jig? I doubt it.
Reading that I would certainly think it fine to target chums for catch and release purposes. Heck, I do that all the time on the Squamish river as do many others without breaking any regs to my knowledge.
Judging by all the responses to my question I can see this whole thing is a confusing mess. I mean, if I really wanted to be an a**e about this I could go down to the river with a big heavy rod, toss big blue spoons and claim quite reasonably that I am targeting Chinooks knowing full well that tossing a big blue spoon would work just as well for pinks as any pink presentation.
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Reading this thread, and all the confusion that it highlights, confirms what I have always thought: certain aspects of the BC fishing regulations are often too complex, contradictory, or ambiguous for many people to understand correctly. This is especially true when you consider that for many fishers, English may not be their strong suit or even their first language. The result is that too often, the regulations are not followed because of a) ignorance, or b) willful misinterpretation. The resource loses in the end. :-[
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Reading this thread, and all the confusion that it highlights, confirms what I have always thought: certain aspects of the BC fishing regulations are often too complex, contradictory, or ambiguous for many people to understand correctly. This is especially true when you consider that for many fishers, English may not be their strong suit or even their first language. The result is that too often, the regulations are not followed because of a) ignorance, or b) willful misinterpretation. The resource loses in the end. :-[
They do not have the budget to rework the entire system, sucks. Rodney and I were just talking about their delivery system needs to made more user friendly.
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not sure about friendly , but they DO need to make it more clear and check for mistakes on their sites . I remember last year confusion when they put "no fishing for finfish" by mistake , I even called them and they were confused , and couple days after they changed it to "no fishing for salmon" . Small mistake but did caused a lot of problems .
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Trying to think back regarding DFO openings from previous years, when they close waters for salmon fishing they have done so for all species. I cant ever recall a notice worded like 'No fishing for *SPECIFIC SALMON SPECIES*".
Actually I take that back. Here's a notice from way back in 2001 where they closed the Mamquam saying "No fishing for pink salmon"
http://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=57357&ID=all
So I guess they have had specific species closures in the past but it's wording they don't use very often or recently...
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This not a complex issue (pretty easy actually, lol) ... Chinook open to fishing with instructions to REDUCE/AVOID HOOKING SOCKEYE and nothing about avoiding pinks, coho, or chum.... Don't target anything but those and by the law you are OK.... Seems a mistake may have been made and not uncommon, too bad people can't figure things out of their own without a hand holding from DFO.... Lol
I would not be surprised to see a DFO officer make the same mistake giving the lack of understanding on here...
When fishing an area you first check to see if it is open.... Fraser open, next species... Chinook open.... Done! Lol
Maybe we need a skill testing question for fishing licences...
The instructions in the regulations are very clear on how to navigate but clearly no one takes the time to read them anymore judging by the responses....
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Also, here is a good link for freshwater notices, just click the top one for current in season changes as people just check the book and nothing more as it's more DFO that issues lots of changes... I'm aware this info is on his site but people seem to mainly read the forum and that's it....
Also, would be handy to have a sticky with links for regulations/changes and possibly a guide to navigate them... Any thoughts rod?
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/fish/regulations/#Synopsis
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This link that was posted earlier breaks it down pretty easily:
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/tidal-maree/fraser-eng.html
It clearly says no fishing (which means targeting at all and catch and release) for pink, chum, coho and sockeye. COs aren't stupid and most have a lot of fishing experience so they'll know if you're not targeting chinook.
Doja is right, this really isn't that confusing but it sounds like people are getting itchy trigger fingers and are trying to find any excuse to get on the river to fish.
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If someone was using pink spoons in a location where people clearly target pinks then there would be a ticket. Unfortunately I highly doubt a judge would go against a co.
Ill try to be the first when heading to new west minster on Wednesday. I have the perfect answer for the dfo
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I dont understand how I could go fishing in the Fraser for just Chinook. I was thinking I could attach a sign to my lure saying - "For Chinooks only. Pinks and Sockey please do not bite as you may face a fine from DFO"
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I dont understand how I could go fishing in the Fraser for just Chinook. I was thinking I could attach a sign to my lure saying - "For Chinooks only. Pinks and Sockey please do not bite as you may face a fine from DFO"
Care to explain how a fish can get a ticket... Lol.... Lol
It clearly says avoid sockeye... But I'd love to see the look DFO face if you brought your gear in with said sign, lol guaranteed no ticket, lol
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Like I said in my earlier post, I was going to get clarifications and have any mistakes fixed if needed....
When fishery notice 953 and 954 came out, it takes precedence over 858 and 859. This means the "no fishing for salmon" under the other species should not have been there. I've requested to have them fixed and you should see that happen by the end of today.
So to summarize briefly. If you're targeting chinook salmon with a spoon and happen to catch a pink salmon, release with care. DFO is not going to fine you for catching a pink salmon while fishing for chinook salmon.
Keep in mind though, regulations aside, the goal here is to protect vulnerable stocks and everyone should be doing their best to avoid catching sockeye salmon. And also pink salmon are not open for retention so these fish should be released with care.
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Like I said in my earlier post, I was going to get clarifications and have any mistakes fixed if needed....
When fishery notice 953 and 954 came out, it takes precedence over 858 and 859. This means the "no fishing for salmon" under the other species should not have been there. I've requested to have them fixed and you should see that happen by the end of today.
Thanks Rod, for confirming my earlier post.
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ty Rodney , at least someone does something to help out noobs and making it more clear , not like others - don't fish if you don't know how read regulations :) and other stuff like that .
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Mistakes are now corrected:
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/tidal-maree/fraser-eng.html
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/fresh-douce/region2-eng.html
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ty Rodney , at least someone does something to help out noobs and making it more clear , not like others - don't fish if you don't know how read regulations :) and other stuff like that .
You were not really looking for advice or help.... You wanted to debate an issue and were all over the place... Lol
You had a concern about the regs... And instead of calling DFO you waited for someone else to do the job you chose not to do.... Lol.
I was happy with the reduced pressure at the moment and would have loved to see it stay the same... Lol ;) (I'm not fishing but think the fish need all the help they can get and I avoid C&R salmon mostly as I prefer to retain and go home thus reducing my damage, personal preference) in the past I have voiced concerns with DFO before on issues I thought were needing addressing.
You asked a question, it WAS answered.... Lol
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You were not really looking for advice or help.... You wanted to debate an issue and were all over the place... Lol
You had a concern about the regs... And instead of calling DFO you waited for someone else to do the job you chose not to do.... Lol.
I was happy with the reduced pressure at the moment and would have loved to see it stay the same... Lol ;) (I'm not fishing but think the fish need all the help they can get and I avoid C&R salmon mostly as I prefer to retain and go home thus reducing my damage, personal preference) in the past I have voiced concerns with DFO before on issues I thought were needing addressing.
You asked a question, it WAS answered.... Lol
There needs to be a 'like' button on these boards..
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There needs to be a 'like' button on these boards..
X2
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I dont understand how I could go fishing in the Fraser for just Chinook. I was thinking I could attach a sign to my lure saying - "For Chinooks only. Pinks and Sockey please do not bite as you may face a fine from DFO"
Bar fishing is the way to go at this time, and is producing well. In the old days that is all we fished for in the Fraser at this time of year and then coho, maybe we should return to those days?
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Bar fishing is the way to go at this time, and is producing well. In the old days that is all we fished for in the Fraser at this time of year and then coho, maybe we should return to those days?
Unfortunately today's chinook/coho numbers are much lower than those days of old, hence TOW. Add to that the ever increasing poaching,pollution,etc and it certainly looks the trend is not reversing anytime soon :(
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ty Rodney , at least someone does something to help out noobs and making it more clear , not like others - don't fish if you don't know how read regulations :) and other stuff like that .
X2
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Stupid question... Other than bar fishing, can I float fish the tidal Fraser with roe for Springs? Just needed verification and clarification of selective fishing methods allowed.
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Float fishing shouldn't be an issue so long as your leader is a reasonable length.
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Stupid question... Other than bar fishing, can I float fish the tidal Fraser with roe for Springs? Just needed verification and clarification of selective fishing methods allowed.
I belive so as I don't think sockeye are known to take roe. If you DO start hooking them (more than 1) I'd stop and change methods. I can only really think of BB as the main concern for socks but I don't fish the mouth much.
The only stupid question is the one NOT asked.
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You were not really looking for advice or help.... You wanted to debate an issue and were all over the place... Lol
You had a concern about the regs... And instead of calling DFO you waited for someone else to do the job you chose not to do.... Lol.
As someone mentioned above , NOT ALL people at this forum speak clear English , for me English is second (technically third) language , so instead of your LOL`ings , you read between the lines , where I clearly wrote that if I have time I will stop by their office at Steveston ( too bad is closes at 4 pm and I work till 3:30 and I can`t make it ) .You clearly see , that Rod wrote that they fixed "mistake" on their website. IMO , until that , you can say whatever you want and it won`t matter because its not matching . And last thing I`d like to say , I`d rather ask people if I`m not sure instead of going to the river , and how some people wrote at this post "start c&r" :) what appeared to be incorrect .
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I'm willing to bet rod emailed them.... You write/read fair enough to accomplish this task. Some how you found their address.... Most likely on the website but you might also know of its location from other sources.
English wasn't the first language I learned.... Lol