Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Flytech on October 19, 2014, 07:22:03 AM
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This is merely food for thought, but we should push the shops to all stop selling Betties. I know they all need to make money, but if we can get them all to stop selling these it would be fair. We aren't going to change the DFOs mind, and it's a complete long shot. The shop owners are the ones taking the risk, but its for the greater good of our fishery. If we could only convince the major shops to lead the pack and stop pushing bad practices.
I know it's whack to think they might actually consider this, but it's worth a shot isn't it?
I know they could still buy them online, but it would reduce the numbers for sure.
EDIT: Read the whole thread if you can, before replying. I have changed my views because of it. Education is key, not banning.
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maybe it would be better if some people stopped thinking like fascists.
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Many people make their own weights, including bettys.
(A real bouncing Betty is actually made of rubber and weighs about an ounce.)
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maybe it would be better if some people stopped thinking like fascists.
Ralph, you just love being a douche don't you?
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Many people make their own weights, including bettys.
(A real bouncing Betty is actually made of rubber and weighs about an ounce.)
Of course, just thinking of the sheer numbers. You wouldn't be able to remove it completely, as I said, they could still get access to them. But it would reduce the amount of people that only know flossing as the go to method of catching salmon. Hopefully the shops would educate fishermen on good practices instead.
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They just switch to pencil lead.
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I'd rather they refused to stock river lures with hooks bigger than 1 or 2/0.
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Ralph, you just love being a douche don't you?
hah! You can't do any better can you. You need to consider that having a free society means some people will do things we find inappropriate and distasteful to the point of being disgusting. Remember when homosexuality was illegal? Are you like that - someone who doesn't like or reads in a book that it's immoral or unethical as the current naive like to say these days so has to wipe something from the public? To me that is thinking like a fascist. Fascism simply means everyone should be like everyone else and power will be used to make it so.
Lots of other weights than bettys do the job. people were flossing socks for years before bettys showed up in the shops. You've put very little thought into your modest proposal.
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Wow, ok Ralph. You win. Smart guy. I love how you take something and just explode it in to some dramatic scene to make a point.
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They just switch to pencil lead.
That's not nearly as effective, lose a lot more gear that way.
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Wow, ok Ralph. You win. Smart guy. I love how you take something and just explode it in to some dramatic scene to make a point.
Ralph shared his opinion on your post, then you resorted to name calling rather than defending your stance. Ralph is not the one exploding the situation.
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Wow, ok Ralph. You win. Smart guy. I love how you take something and just explode it in to some dramatic scene to make a point.
Right this from someone who makes the proverbial mountain from a molehill.
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Ralph shared his opinion on your post, then you resorted to name calling rather than defending your stance. Ralph is not the one exploding the situation.
I didn't say he was exploding the situation, I was referring to his homosexuality being illegal at point comment. I was talking about his dramatic analogy? Its like comparing speeding with murder, overblown. He implied I was a facist, so I called him a douche.
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Local shops may listen to our suggestions, but we would have a much harder time convincing large corporations such as Walmart and Canadian tire.
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there was no implication you are a fascist so now you are exploding the situation with dramatic analogy. I don't care and am not offended at being called a douche. As I said that is the best you can do, enough said. No doubt the exchange was pretty 50-50.
Perhaps you and others need to think a bit more about your passionate concern over flossing and bettys. Perhaps some of you are more passion victims than passionate. The fall salmon fishing has been a gong show in all the time I have been fishing which is over 50 years. In that whole time newbies have been showing up with the wrong tactics and no idea of protocol on those streams. Banning bettys or anything else won't make that go away.
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--I use betties with a T-turn swivel for trolling and drop shotting in lakes.
--Tackle stores can make their own choices but if they so choose they could give advice on non snagging use...especially in areas where snagging is not condoned.
--If a shop were to take everything off the shelf that offended someone they wouldn't have anything to sell.
--PETA and others don't like the selling of "natural' materials or even fish torture.
--Some don't want treble hooks because in some areas you cannot fish with them.
--Other want all non fly gear removed.
--There is no end to it.
--Promoting what some deem to be ethical fishing... I'm all for it... banning choice.... no way
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Where there is a will, there is a way (to floss). This of course is beyond the fact that not everyone thinks flossing should be banned.
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This is merely food for thought, but we should push the shops to all stop selling Betties....
I know they could still buy them online, but it would reduce the numbers for sure.
I'm not sure I concur. Like you say, there are big box stores and online sources so the practice would not be diminished much if at all. What we need is better education. There is no more need to ban betties any more than banning 50lb braid or leaders sold in greater than 24" increments. All tools have a time and place and I dont believe they are the problem, but rather the symptom.
If we could only convince the major shops to lead the pack and stop pushing bad practices.
I totally agree with you on that, this is part of the problem right here. Every sockeye season all the stores have big signs and ads essentially saying "SOCKEYE HAVE ARRIVED!! GET YOUR SNAGGING GEAR HERE!!". But do the specialty stores take the opportunity to educate anglers who but the stuff? ie find out why a customer is buying a particular piece of gear and taking the time to explain the proper time and use of it. If someone was to buy a betty and 5/0 hooks today, out of sockeye season, the store should determine how/where they plan on using it and try to redirect them to more appropriate methods if possible.
People go to the LFS for advice and service, shouldn't they have an ethical imperative to promote practices that are healthy for the sport?
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Ill thought out suggestion IMO. Fishermen will just resort to using pencil lead, and other forms of weight. Might as well ban yarn, corkies, spin n'glos and other terminal gear
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Ill thought out suggestion IMO. Fishermen will just resort to using pencil lead, and other forms of weight. Might as well ban yarn, corkies, spin n'glos and other terminal gear
Pencil tends to get caught up more in bottom debree. The rounded Betty makes for perfect bounce and roll.
Again, mere suggestion, DFO clearly isn't going to set leader length.
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I totally agree with you on that, this is part of the problem right here. Every sockeye season all the stores have big signs and ads essentially saying "SOCKEYE HAVE ARRIVED!! GET YOUR SNAGGING GEAR HERE!!". But do the specialty stores take the opportunity to educate anglers who but the stuff? ie find out why a customer is buying a particular piece of gear and taking the time to explain the proper time and use of it. If someone was to buy a betty and 5/0 hooks today, out of sockeye season, the store should determine how/where they plan on using it and try to redirect them to more appropriate methods if possible.
I do not understand why they do not put in the effort, because educating an angler may get them more long term business. If I go to any type of shop and expirence great knowledgable staff who are willing to help me understand my purchase, I am more inclined to go back to that store next time I need something.
I use one shop specifically because I like certain staff members. I go out of my way to go to that shop, when they have another more convienent location close to the river. But the shop overall needs to work on their selling/educating practices just like all of the local lower mainland establishments.
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--I use betties with a T-turn swivel for trolling and drop shotting in lakes.
--Tackle stores can make their own choices but if they so choose they could give advice on non snagging use...especially in areas where snagging is not condoned.
--If a shop were to take everything off the shelf that offended someone they wouldn't have anything to sell.
--PETA and others don't like the selling of "natural' materials or even fish torture.
--Some don't want treble hooks because in some areas you cannot fish with them.
--Other want all non fly gear removed.
--There is no end to it.
--Promoting what some deem to be ethical fishing... I'm all for it... banning choice.... no way
Fair enough, I agree, my thoughts are more on the education from staff than the banning of gear now this discussion as opened.
This is why I started the thread. Good discussion, instead of people just complaining about the flossing/snagging practice. Maybe we come up with some constructive ideas to help limit it.
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Local shops may listen to our suggestions, but we would have a much harder time convincing large corporations such as Walmart and Canadian tire.
I'm thinking it would be a hard task even convincing the local shops. As for the walmarts, etc, they don't even provide staff they could educate.
It's monkey see monkey do out there, and if we could establish the education/promotion of better practices then we might slowly see a change. But you need to start some where, and discussion is better than non-discussion.
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The fall salmon fishing has been a gong show in all the time I have been fishing which is over 50 years. In that whole time newbies have been showing up with the wrong tactics and no idea of protocol on those streams. Banning bettys or anything else won't make that go away.
Agreed that it's been a gong show, and will continue being that way for a long time. But that doesn't mean we should just stick our heads in the sand, right?
The newbies have to have learned it from somewhere, is it the shops? Is it their buddies? Is it just observation on the river? If you don't know ANYTHING about fishing you wouldn't know how to setup a snagging rig.
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I do not understand why they do not put in the effort, because educating an angler may get them more long term business.
This is a really good point. betties, wool, hooks etc provide short term revenue but how much long term profit can a store expect from that? Barely $20 worth of terminal gear is probably enough to last me a seasons fishing on the Vedder.
You would think if they could convert them to someone who wants to enjoy the all round fishing experience, better profits can be made when they start buying fly gear, high end reels, custom rods, boating accessories, nice waders/jackets, and on and on and on.
I have no insight into the finances of running a fishing store but it seems there is not much they could add to the selling of betties that cant be done (cheaper) by walmart. Obviously their advantage is in their great knowledge and specialty selections.
I'm thinking it would be a hard task even convincing the local shops.
I know Sea-Run explicitly tries to discourage BB'ing on non-Fraser systems in their blog and reports. It's not much, but its something. I dont know what their in-store interactions on that topic are like, but stores which do not care how the stuff they sell is being used should be made known and not be given any of our business.
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Can't tell a business to stop selling a product because people are miss using it ........ this will never happen......
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Can't tell a business to stop selling a product because people are miss using it ........ this will never happen......
You can't tell anyone to do anything, but you can discuss options and ideas.
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Max 12" leader, size 2 hook.
OP> Are you using leader longer than 12", hook bigger than size 2; if so consider yourself a snagger. ::)
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That assumption requres both right?
Otherwise dry fly/lake chironie fishing would be considered snagging at times :o
Personally I read somewhere cali has some interesting salmon laws, I should look into those.
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Pencil tends to get caught up more in bottom debree. The rounded Betty makes for perfect bounce and roll.
Again, mere suggestion, DFO clearly isn't going to set leader length.
Agree but if betties are ban, they will use pencil lead or slinkies
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The only reason that I use Bettys is because they cast farther. I used slinkys for a long time before I finally tried bettys and found they cast considerably farther.
Personally, I think your idea is fantastic. I would support you in any way possible. And I would have someone at every bar selling my own, exclusive and expensive, brand of casting weights. Your suggestion reminds me of the introduction of rabbits to Australia.
And as a reg to limit leader length goes, I am all in favour of that too. I have an idea for a 'bobber stop' kind of thing that would allow someone to cast with their weight well up the mainline above the leader and then, with a sharp tug, release the weight,allowing it to slip down the mainline to the swivel and leader before bringing the weight back to shore. I will be selling these at most of the bars too.
I don't know what the answer is to the flossing problem but I do know that knee jerk reactions aren't the solution.
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I'm not a hunter but as far as I know you have to take and pass a course before your granted a hunting licence.
The same could be done for fishing if education is to ever work on a larger scale.
IE: Identification of fish species
How to release a fish properly
Understanding the regulations
Fishing ethics in general
Enhancement and effects of leaving debris in our water systems etc. etc. etc
Its just a thought but I believe it's better than to start banning certain items from local stores. Having said that you will always have certain individuals who decide once they have their licence that snagging is the easier option than to fish ethically.
What it might do is give the younger generation (New Anglers) some basics on how to make and keep fishing a far more rewarding and satisfying venture in the future.
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I'm not a hunter but as far as I know you have to take and pass a course before your granted a hunting licence.
The same could be done for fishing if education is to ever work on a larger scale.
Agreed. Even an online course/test similar to the Pleasure Craft Operator Card could reap huge benefits with very little cost. Could even subsidize the program by charging a 10 dollar one time fee.
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I'm not a hunter but as far as I know you have to take and pass a course before your granted a hunting licence.
The same could be done for fishing if education is to ever work on a larger scale.
IE: Identification of fish species
How to release a fish properly
Understanding the regulations
Fishing ethics in general
Enhancement and effects of leaving debris in our water systems etc. etc. etc
Its just a thought but I believe it's better than to start banning certain items from local stores. Having said that you will always have certain individuals who decide once they have their licence that snagging is the easier option than to fish ethically.
What it might do is give the younger generation (New Anglers) some basics on how to make and keep fishing a far more rewarding and satisfying venture in the future.
I'm 100% for this idea, except the downside would kill the industry behind fishing. Stores, guides, lodging would all suffer from the loss of interest of lazy people.
It sure would free up the rivers.
Maybe a simple touch screen test, or online test like the boaters license might help. You could try and cram in some last minute education. But if we can't get the DFO to restrict negative fishing practices, we will never get them to create and implement a testing system like this.
But that's one of the better ideas I've read today.
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There's no way we or you or anyone person could make stores stop selling BBS. Sites are there to support the sport but there are still a business. That being said its within the regs so it will continue. Basically this is a hot topic that's been restarted after the season of snagging has past. If there is to be a change made, the dfo needs to be on board. The best case scenario I can see is a happy medium such as recognizing it a method of fishing (very unskilled method) and have it regulated with times and locations. Its like drinking and driving, it was socially accepted in the last but social acceptance has evolved. Not sure if the last analogy is bang on but feel free to comment.
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Somewhere, in some thread I read a fantastic idea, at least to me :o
Get an old box spring with the frame removed, tie a rope to it and set it up in a fashion where you don't need a scuba suit to retrieve it, but it remains invisible to all anglers, and slam that sucker in your favourite runs. When the meathead snaggers show up to floss away, quickly the run becomes unfishable. I saw quite a few "spots" on the Fraser this past summer turn into ghost towns when it became impractical to fish there due to minefields ;D ;D ;D
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We can talk all we want about tackle restrictions till we're blue in the face. Nothing will be done about it. The only real solution is to cut off their supply of free meat. Look, I've proposed this in the past but have not had much support. Make Chinook, Chums and Pinks catch and release after September. It wasn't that long ago that the only species of Salmon you could keep was coho. The people using sockeye gear on the vedder are primarily after the easy to floss fish like chum and pink which can be in greater abundance and springs which are easier to floss due to their size and where they like to sit in the river. Those species deteriorate rapidly once they hit the Vedder. I've seen some dark fish kept that I wouldn't even put in my garden let alone feed them to my pets. The only time I would kill a white spring, chum or pink from the Vedder is if its clean and I have someone willing to eat it. Otherwise I'll let them go to spawn. Coho are more elusive. Sure, you won't stop the poachers or the float flossers at Tamahi but I bet you will see far less BB with betties and 6 foot leaders.
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I'm not a hunter but as far as I know you have to take and pass a course before your granted a hunting licence.
The same could be done for fishing if education is to ever work on a larger scale.
IE: Identification of fish species
How to release a fish properly
Understanding the regulations
Fishing ethics in general
Enhancement and effects of leaving debris in our water systems etc. etc. etc
Its just a thought but I believe it's better than to start banning certain items from local stores. Having said that you will always have certain individuals who decide once they have their licence that snagging is the easier option than to fish ethically.
What it might do is give the younger generation (New Anglers) some basics on how to make and keep fishing a far more rewarding and satisfying venture in the future.
I keep reading that the solution to snagging etc. is for the new angler to pass a written test. New drivers have to pass a written and driving exam before being granted their licence. It doesn't stop people from speeding, texting, going through red lights and driving under the influence.
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I keep reading that the solution to snagging etc. is for the new angler to pass a written test. New drivers have to pass a written and driving exam before being granted their licence. It doesn't stop people from speeding, texting, going through red lights and driving under the influence.
Very true, but having them have to read and answer helps give you a chance to educate. But again the DFO would have to be behind it, and we can't even get them to restrict leader length in rivers.
There always will be idiots. But reducing the amount of idiots is a good thing.
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If there is to be a change made, the dfo needs to be on board
I'm a bit of a noob, so correct me if I'm wrong, but all BBing that I can think of takes place in the fresh water portions of rivers. While the DFO regulates Salmon, the BC Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations regulates all fresh water portions of rivers, so if they implemented a leader or gear restriction then I believe the DFO wouldn't actually have to be on board. Not sure if that actually matters, but maybe change would be easier to effect in provincial regulations than federal.
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--in a hockey game there are 4 officials on the ice... vid review of dangerous play and thousands of fans voicing their opinion of the rules...with only 10 players on the ice.
--violation of the rules often occur and many are not enforced.
--In this case if we get a rule change we will still only have 1 official to cover several miles and a ton of people so why would we think any rule change would be effective.
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I'm a bit of a noob, so correct me if I'm wrong, but all BBing that I can think of takes place in the fresh water portions of rivers. While the DFO regulates Salmon, the BC Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations regulates all fresh water portions of rivers, so if they implemented a leader or gear restriction then I believe the DFO wouldn't actually have to be on board. Not sure if that actually matters, but maybe change would be easier to effect in provincial regulations than federal.
I'm pretty sure you are correct, but I do believe they work hand in glove with one another in creating/enforcing regulations. I think lobbying either party would prove to be difficult, although regulations have been changed in the past. As with any regulation change, there needs to be suitable enforcement behind it, and the DFO/CO officers seem to be at an all time low as it is. I can only imagine the grey hairs forming when the RAPP line lights up with people calling about fellow anglers with excess leader length.....
Another option, probably extremely unpopular, is to cut back on hatchery releases. Take away the steady push of fish in the fall, limit the effectiveness of the snagging. Not sure if it would work at this point as it seems there is a fairly healthy run of "wild" springs/chum/pinks that have repopulated the river, but none the less, if jacking hatchery releases can repopulate a river, surely the opposite could be true.
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After searching the web I found that Germany actually has a test you must pass before you are granted a licence copied from http://berlin.angloinfo.com/information/lifestyle/sports-and-leisure/fishing/
The fishing licence (Fischereischein) is obtained on completion of the Sportfisherprüfung (sport fishing exam). The fishing exam normally takes place once or twice a year, at different times depending on federal state.
To get a licence:
Apply to a fishing club (Angelverein) to find out when lessons and exams take place
30-40 hours supervised fishing lessons must be taken before the exam (lessons normally take place over 4 to 5 weekends. Information on dates and instruction is usually available from local fishing clubs and shops)
The exam tests the knowledge of:
Different types of fish
Fish biology and habitats
Fishing equipment and its uses
Treatment of catch
Different types of waters (lakes, rivers, seas)
Relevant legislation on fish, animal and nature protection
On successful completion of the sport fishing exam, the fishing club will issue a pass certificate which can be exchanged at the local town hall (Bezirksamt) for an official fishing licence. The pass certificate from the exam is valid for life, but the actual fishing licence has a validity of one or five years. The licence can be renewed for a fee.
Now this certainly wont stop unethical fishing today but it might bode well for the future anglers.
Make a fishing licence suspendable along with the fine and see if as many people are willing to risk the chance of getting caught
Unfortunately the problem once again lies with the DFO enforcing the regulations as budget cuts always seem to hit environmental jobs first ...... Coast Guards , Rangers, Co's etc.
Personally I think the only hope of changing peoples ways is through education before they reach the stage of unethical fishing in the first place. I wish I had the chance to enhance salmon as the kids in elementary schools do today. I can only think of the respect some of those kids may have for the work they put into these projects
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Instead of banning betties how about tackle shops selling river gear asking "Would you like us to pinch your barbs?"
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A ban wouldn't work because as Dion points out where there is a will there is a way. People already can make their own betties out of golf balls so a ban of betties from the retail stores would merely be symbolic - but certainly ineffective (i.e. a waste of time). Personally, I have very seldom participated in this type of fishery (~6 times in my whole life). I would rather flyfish a small lake in the fall than losing a bunch of gear in the river flossing Sockeye while being shoulder to shoulder with other people. I don't see it as being very skilled (well...I am not that great at it either to tell you the truth) or providing a great sporting experience. I am not going to make up some story and suggest that pink wool works best and that the Sockeye are taking my hook willingly. For me, it's about getting Sockeye to eat - period. It's not a catch and release fishery. Those that believe it is a catch and release fishery are the one's needing help (i.e. a course) - not the angler taking his daily legal limit and going home.
If people wish to persuade others from this type of fishing method by education then go ahead by all means (that's better than banning equipment), but in my opinion there are far worse things going on than flossing. The way I see it is that if there are more recreational anglers we encourage to partake whether it is flossing, flyfishing, gang-trolling, etc the more advocates there are to protect and enhance what we have. More funds can be raised to do the fisheries projects that people would like to see done. One hundred percent of the money collected from salmon stamps goes to the Pacific Salmon Foundation for things like salmon habitat enhancement. I know there are many that don't approve of the method of flossing, but those anglers (including newbies) are not necessarily irresponsible and uncaring people. They likely care just as much about wild salmon as those that believe they are more ethically-minded. I believe the recreational sector is stronger with numbers (flossers and non-flossers) when it comes to lobbying for changes from government and getting fisheries projects done than having fewer individuals holding onto their ethics with a clenched fist, being less heard and having less money to do squat, in my opinion.
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Change the local regs so that bottom bouncing is only acceptable during a sockeye run on the Fraser, Make certain areas Bounce free so guys can bar fish. All other local rivers should have discouragement enfored by fines to those flosssing/snagging.
DFO should get an education on those flossing and those that are not. Leader restriction isn't perfect but would be a start. The guys that are pocket flossing and intentionaly snagging should have the heaviest fines. Something needs to be done, in the last few weeks its unreal how many people are out snagging/flossing, killing wild fish. Call DFo and they dont care, pathetic what the river has come too. Thankfully they all go away around mid november.
Saw two idiots on the upper dressed in all Simms gear, sage rod, pocket flossing & snagging coho. Take those losers stuff away and auction it off as far as Im concerned.
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Say... Those who have commented in this thread, how many of you belong to an organization which has a representation at the DFO's sport fishing advisory committees?
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Really sad that there are so many anglers out there that think bottom bouncing is synonymous with flossing/snagging. Poke your head outside the encapsulating bubble that is the lower mainland fishery, and you'll find bottom bouncing is an approved, effective method of fishing.
Go to Alaska, northern BC, Washington, Oregon etc.... You'll see people with slinkies or pencil lead bottom bouncing away and they aren't snagging, they'd probably look at you funny if you told them they were. Drives me nuts to hear people condone "bottom bouncing" like its some kind of parasitic disease.... Learn to differentiate between bottom bouncing and snagging/flossing before you blanket the method as unethical and petition to ban it.
To answer your question Rodney, I was a member of an organization that had representation on the SFAC (on the Skeena I should clarify), I had to resign my membership when it became clearly evident they had their own agenda and anyone not following it fell on deaf ears.
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Instead of banning betties how about tackle shops selling river gear asking "Would you like us to pinch your barbs?"
Absolutely, that's a good one too.
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--in a hockey game there are 4 officials on the ice... vid review of dangerous play and thousands of fans voicing their opinion of the rules...with only 10 players on the ice.
--violation of the rules often occur and many are not enforced.
--In this case if we get a rule change we will still only have 1 official to cover several miles and a ton of people so why would we think any rule change would be effective.
Of course it wouldn't stop everyone, but the law abiding people would stop. That's a huge portion of the people bouncing, they just don't know any better.
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Agree but if betties are ban, they will use pencil lead or slinkies
actually bettys don't hang up less often than pencil lead and slinkys hang up far less often than anything else. Bettys cast farther and sink better than any of the alternatives. It's always amusing to read solutions to problems proposed by people who don't have any direct experience with the particulars of the practice.
You want to reduce illegal angling practices and fish retention of river like the Vedder pressure your MP and MLA to increase funding and get more enforcement on the water! Changing angling regs will do nothing if there is no enforcement.
You want to reduce the number of people on the water at peak fishing times; raise license fees to like $500 a year or charge a fee for daily tickets & limit the number of tickets for each body of water, reduce catch limits and cut or eliminate hatchery releases - return to a wild fish management strategy. Those are some sensible options that may make a difference. Trying to stop the use of bettys can do nothing.
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You want to reduce the number of people on the water at peak fishing times; raise license fees to like $500 a year or charge a fee for daily tickets & limit the number of tickets for each body of water.
British Columbia is not the UK or in the rest of Europe.
In fact I believe at that point the tourists wouls outnumber the locals...
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this is true - in Europe the charge to fish a river like the Vedder would be several hundred $ a day and possibly several thousand for a week - and just that river for maybe a 100 to 200 foot stretch. But of course there's only be one or 2 anglers there. A higher $ annual license that permits an angler to fish any water in the Province for any species is a far better deal or a day charge of $10 to $30 a day is a comparative bargain.
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Say... Those who have commented in this thread, how many of you belong to an organization which has a representation at the DFO's sport fishing advisory committees?
--I think the organizations that I belong to would put me on a rack...BCFFF and BCWF... I am a member of both and they sometimes/often have polar views.
--Not a spokesperson for either group but just a guess BCFFF might prefer fly fishing only... although probably not in this case as they would be more concerned in areas of low abundance or high by-catch. BCWF would likely not want any restriction where there is not a biological need.
--So In a way when there are enough fish for a harvest fishery the groups although their statements and philosophy's may be different probably would choose other areas of the province to draw lines in the sand.
--I would prefer to see regulations that are accompanied by a rationale... that is where the intent of the regulation is clear. So if there are areas that are intended for fish harvest at some times of the year and for some species the regulation should state that and clearly indicate that the regulation is intended to allow for harvest. It is basically a quota fishery so if the quota is not harvested by individuals it will just be added to other fisheries some of which many believe are even less selective...thus potentially do more harm.
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Instead of banning betties how about tackle shops selling river gear asking "Would you like us to pinch your barbs?"
Would be nice if manufacturers stopped crafting hooks with barbs in general.
I know in california they have regs against it, but I guess its just not enough yet to stop manufacturers but it would go a long way, and seeing a reduction in treble hooks. (for the curious https://law.resource.org/pub/us/ccr/gov.ca.oal.title14.html)
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Would be nice if manufacturers stopped crafting hooks with barbs in general.
I know in california they have regs against it, but I guess its just not enough yet to stop manufacturers but it would go a long way, and seeing a reduction in treble hooks. (for the curious https://law.resource.org/pub/us/ccr/gov.ca.oal.title14.html (https://law.resource.org/pub/us/ccr/gov.ca.oal.title14.html))
So many waters in BC allow it, not to mention around the world.
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there's never been a study that found barbed or trebles had significantly higher mortality than barbless singles. Why the Province has a ban on barbed hooks has always been a bit of a mystery. Trebles maybe just to make it tougher for snaggers.
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there's never been a study that found barbed or trebles had significantly higher mortality than barbless singles. Why the Province has a ban on barbed hooks has always been a bit of a mystery. Trebles maybe just to make it tougher for snaggers.
Ease of release is the answer for me. I rarely lose a fish due to the lack of a barb. I hate getting out a hook with a barb, always a struggle.
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there's never been a study that found barbed or trebles had significantly higher mortality than barbless singles. Why the Province has a ban on barbed hooks has always been a bit of a mystery. Trebles maybe just to make it tougher for snaggers.
Much less damage to the fish, when releasing a a deeper hooked fish, thus leading to more bleeding and higher mortality Also, if you just miss a fishes eye, taking out the hooks with barb might just take the eye along with it.
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As I said there is no study that backs the claim of significantly lower mortality...none. In fact the rate is more or less the same for barbless single, single barbed and barbed trebles in dozens of studies.
longer handling time, additional injury etc may be true but these don't translate to higher mortality.
Some studies have found barbless hook penetrate deeper than barbed hooks and singles penetrate deeper than trebles perhaps explaining why there is little difference. In typical mortal hooking injuries such as gill hooked, hooked under the tongue or in the gullet, it makes no difference if the hook is barbed or not.
getting a barbed hook stuck in your finger or else were isn't a pleasant thing however.
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Does not have a huge difference in mortality but the increase is still there.
http://nativefishsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/barbed-and-barbless-hooks-lit-review-408.pdf
Since we are on the topic of controversial rules, I would much rather see the bait ban lifted on the cap during September and October to greatly reduce an unethical fishermans need to snag and floss, than allowing us to use barbs.
Edit: I don't mean that using roe is unethical when it is allowed, I meant that it would be better for them to be allowed to use roe than resort to other methods, because they can't be bothered to learn how to fish spinners/spoons/blades.
For the record i don't fish roe
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Does not have a huge difference in mortality but the increase is still there.
http://nativefishsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/barbed-and-barbless-hooks-lit-review-408.pdf
Since we are on the topic of controversial rules, I would much rather see the bait ban lifted on the cap during September and October to greatly reduce an unethical fishermans need to snag and floss, than allowing us to use barbs.
This is true but its also about the handling of the fish and the gear as well which all add up to something. But still barbless hooks goes a long way at least as a start, I don't know if banning betties are a good idea. when we're at work Bouncing Betty makes a great code word! ::)
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--Okanagan lk just added a rule to allow barbless treble... the reason... large single barbless sywash hooks used trolling for trout kill kokanee which at the time were supposed to be released.
--Customize the rules for some areas with reasons given for the intent. If results are not conclusive remove the rule or do proper studies.
--In many cases rules are made to limit fishers or fishing success. Loto or quota can do the same job where the fishing resource is over utilized.
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I would much rather see the bait ban lifted on the cap during September and October to greatly reduce an unethical fishermans need to snag and floss, than allowing us to use barbs.
I have serious issues with these kinda things, mostly the mentality that certain rules take out the only "good" choice for whatever, be it catching fish, in a rugby game, doing a forestry site plan etc...
It would kind of be like a timber shortage in the interior caused by the lowered allowable annual cut causing companies to lobby the government to pull areas out of protected reserves.
Wait a minute....Thats actually going on right now....
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Governments messed up, BC sells half our hydropower to the states. So we can what? Get charged more?
I mean...I agree with Clarkii.
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I'm not a hunter but as far as I know you have to take and pass a course before your granted a hunting licence.
The same could be done for fishing if education is to ever work on a larger scale.
IE: Identification of fish species
How to release a fish properly
Understanding the regulations
Fishing ethics in general
Enhancement and effects of leaving debris in our water systems etc. etc. etc
Its just a thought but I believe it's better than to start banning certain items from local stores. Having said that you will always have certain individuals who decide once they have their licence that snagging is the easier option than to fish ethically.
What it might do is give the younger generation (New Anglers) some basics on how to make and keep fishing a far more rewarding and satisfying venture in the future.
This is an idea that I would totally go for, one time course examination for all fishers regardless of how long they've been a license holder for. Given how much trouble it would be to obtain a license, I think they would value the regs more (snagging, misidentifying their catch, fishing ethically etc). Businesses would probably suffer just a little bit for it, I don't think it would be too big of an impact, maybe at first, but over time it would get better. If you look at the CORE instructors, many of them are also shop owners, guides, and so on.
The fees could be self sustainable and nothing for the government to be concerned about in regards to doling out more tax dollars for this idea. I'm sure many of us are willing to pay a little extra to be able to hire a few more officers to monitor our rivers. I personally go fishing 2 or 3 times a week and I have not seen a CO in the past 3 years.
Rodney's right, we do need to be more involved with our organizations that we have here in BC to express our ideas and push for changes. Flytech, great discussion to open up. Now we can turn words into action. We can rally together and push for changes. Get the media involved, talk to your MLAs, talk to your local government, talk to the DFO, Ministry of fisheries. I am a government employee and I believe some of us here may be. We can push for internal change while we have external pressure as well. It can be a two-fold strategy that will be effective.
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It's to bad everyone just doesn't fly fish. The world would be a better place. LOL
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I have serious issues with these kinda things, mostly the mentality that certain rules take out the only "good" choice for whatever, be it catching fish, in a rugby game, doing a forestry site plan etc...
If this directed at my mentality, I in no way believe roe is the "good" choice, i have never fished roe on the cap. Allowing it under certain circumstances where it is currently prohibited, would in my opinion be the lesser of two evils, the blatant snagging or flossing be the other. Obviously the best option would be to severly punish/ get rid of the problem makers but that is not always possible.
But hey, that is just my opinion
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It was, you'd have to push for it.
Why not take the extra energy and push for more enforcement.
Would do the whole province/country good.
More then just lifting a bait ban on a hatchery system
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Why not take the extra energy and push for more enforcement.
Because I am 18 and a full time UBC student, I don't exactly have an abundance of time or resources at my disposal. Once I get on my feet, I will be more than happy to get involved. My comment about the bait ban was just my thoughts and nothing I was pushing or pursuing for. It is a river filled of 3lb hatchery clones, I am not sweating over it. I was however happy to a see conservation officer there this morning before I bombed it across town for my lectures. I am sorry if I sparked a nerve, take my comments as a grain of salt and nothing more.
Owen
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Good to see you care Owen, im 20 ,and third year NRS up at TRU. Not sure what your degree is but the above fact is good.
Reasons I have issues with the lesser of two evils approach is they are a ....(not being an arts student means i dont know the fallacy I want...) anyway they dont really fix anything except change what the issue is..
Though I admit it would be an interesting study to see how many would still snag if the ban was lifted. However both the animal welfare protocols and the human rights commission or w/e at my school probs wouldnt approve it.
And apologies if I came off harsh, but im much more relaxed now I have 1 midterm on Halloween left to write and not three plus a report like I did 48 hours ago!
Doug
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Does not have a huge difference in mortality but the increase is still there.
http://nativefishsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/barbed-and-barbless-hooks-lit-review-408.pdf
the differences are very small. The numbers quoted do not include measures of statistical significance such as the Chi square test that can tell us the likelihood that the result is do to experimental error.
It also fails to consider the fact that barbless hooks, hook more fish as the resistance of the barb reduces penetration. So it may be more of a wash on that basis alone.
Since we are on the topic of controversial rules, I would much rather see the bait ban lifted on the cap during September and October to greatly reduce an unethical fishermans need to snag and floss, than allowing us to use barbs.
exactly how would renoval of the ban stop angler who snag and floss from doing that? FWIW the roe ban was intended to protect summer steelhead.
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exactly how would renoval of the ban stop angler who snag and floss from doing that? FWIW the roe ban was intended to protect summer steelhead.
I would imagine that these people could probably catch their coho of springs with a blob of roe on their hook, but once you take that way from them they don't know how to otherwise catch their salmon because they will not bother to learn how to fish other methods like spoons, spinners or blades, some might just choose the easy method or the one they see other "fisherman" doing.
I have no clue what percentage of the people who snag or floss fish, used to fish roe when they allowed, it is probably not very high. Please just take it as my thoughts, and not a blanket statement.