Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: chris gadsden on October 15, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
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http://commonsensecanadian.ca/pristine-coast-doc-reveals-surprising-untold-history-salmon-farms/
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Rafe is another one that hasn't really read the Cohen Final Report. Where does Justice Cohen concludes that sea lice is destroying our salmon? What and where are these imported fatal diseases? What did Cohen conclude about sea lice as vector of diseases? Cohen certainly didn't conclude that sea lice was directly implicated in the decline of Fraser Sockeye. Not a coincidence that Rafe never refers to Justice's Cohen Final Report and it's findings.
-No mention of what the returns of Fraser Sockeye have been like since 2009 which initiated the Cohen Inquiry.
-No mention of the large abundance of Pink Salmon in the North Pacific.
-No mention of the other factors that could be impacting Fraser Sockeye production (other than a very brief mention of climate change).
-No mention of the extensive work done by Scott Hinch and his team on salmon physiology and migratory conditions (i.e. water temperatures).
-No mention of studies done by Randell Peterman which showed a decrease in productivity in non-Fraser Sockeye stocks in the US and Canada.
-No mention of what the expert testimony stated about the presence or absence of ISAv or ISA in our waters.
Instead, Rafe turns to a film maker to tell more stories instead of actually reading what the current findings are.
Lately it seems that anti fish farm activists like Rafe Mair and Alexandra Morton are doing worse than the wild salmon the profess to be protecting. Might have to hold rallies to save these prominent activists from extinction.
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There you go again Steve, using facts to debunk the garbage ;D
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As we all know Cohen accomplished very little, except it spend a lot of our taxpayers money
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And, as we all know this Cohen report was started by people like Almo, Staniford and other groupies of the anti fish farming community who lobbied Ottawa for an answer to why there were fewer salmon to kill .. Sure, Cohen gently touched on other issues like over fishing, climate change, pollution, lack of enforcement ... and so far no one is listening, but this whole financial fiasco was started by protesters, led by one female American born activist. It failed, to the tune of 26M, and as you state Chris, that was our money.
Cohen found no link to declining wild salmon from fish farming. Period. Get over it.
God, what that money could have done if spent wisely >:(
Just an example .. how does Almo explain the near record numbers of pinks this past summer in the Broughton, or the huge return of Fraser pinks last year, and of course this years Fraser sockeye, an estimated 99% that migrated right past the evil net pens in the Discovery Island area?
Ask her some serious questions next time you meet with her; ask her for her data on contaminants from the Polley Mine area- remember she rode into Likely as a savior of wild salmon and made a big deal of reporting such; ask her for her data on all the viral samples she has taken, some I believe were supplied by you.
Then ask her for a reporting of how all donated money to her cause has been spent.
I suspect I will be waiting a while ...
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OK I guess I'm the only person here who's seen the film-it was playing @ the Vancouver International Film Festival and I was lucky to see a screening with the film maker in attendance he's a Guy I've seen fishing locally.
I have to take exception with the angle of the article as linked-the film doesn't tell anyone who knows anything about the Salmon aquaculture situation in BC anything they haven't heard before and most of it has been hashed over on fora like this one-and many other places on the net.
The issue I have with the film is that it tries too hard to tell us everything it's repetitive dull and many points are unclear-a firm handed editing job could produced a much more succinct effort; a person making something like this has to ask themself 'What is it I'm trying to say'? and 'Am I saying it right'?
So the film goes on & on & on & on and some of the shots-like a stream full of Chum carcasses juxtaposed with a filthy net pen-are effective but IMO not honest at all.
In addition the conclusions drawn re:world wide Sea Lice infestations are thin evidence wise and hurt the overall message-this is where neutral experienced input could have helped the overall effort.
It's not a happy experience to see that documentary and given how people's attention spans have shortened under the influence of the internets it's a tough view.
(takes a deep breath.....)
That being said I'd like to state unequivocally that I'm opposed to sea based net pens with every fibre of my being-I have marched I have demonstrated I have contributed financially for decades and will continue to do so until my last breath is drawn.
Those who defend such wanton environmental destruction (we know who they are) are beneath contempt.
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And, as we all know this Cohen report was started by people like Almo, Staniford and other groupies of the anti fish farming community who lobbied Ottawa for an answer to why there were fewer salmon to kill .. Sure, Cohen gently touched on other issues like over fishing, climate change, pollution, lack of enforcement ... and so far no one is listening, but this whole financial fiasco was started by protesters, led by one female American born activist. It failed, to the tune of 26M, and as you state Chris, that was our money.
Cohen found no link to declining wild salmon from fish farming. Period. Get over it.
God, what that money could have done if spent wisely >:(
Just an example .. how does Almo explain the near record numbers of pinks this past summer in the Broughton, or the huge return of Fraser pinks last year, and of course this years Fraser sockeye, an estimated 99% that migrated right past the evil net pens in the Discovery Island area?
Ask her some serious questions next time you meet with her; ask her for her data on contaminants from the Polley Mine area- remember she rode into Likely as a savior of wild salmon and made a big deal of reporting such; ask her for her data on all the viral samples she has taken, some I believe were supplied by you.
Then ask her for a reporting of how all donated money to her cause has been spent.
I suspect I will be waiting a while ...
I will send you her e mail and see if you will ask her personally the questions you ask, the best way to go.
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You posted it, you reply :D
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You posted it, you reply :D
Beak, I know you would say that, are you afraid to talk to her directly, maybe you can change her mind as you and the PAP boys seem to know all the correct facts. ;D ;D
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Oh and it sort of line the pipeline and shipping of oil by tankers "they say "everything will be fine" but here you go.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fuel-laden-container-ship-adrift-off-coast-of-haida-gwaii-1.2803590
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Oh and it sort of line the pipeline and shipping of oil by tankers "they say "everything will be fine" but here you go.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fuel-laden-container-ship-adrift-off-coast-of-haida-gwaii-1.2803590
Typically the "anti everything" types are quick to respond far before the actual facts surface. Ie: its not a tanker!
From the comments:
The fact is its not a Tanker, if it was it would have been more than 200 miles off shore. And if it was a tanker loaded with product in the future from Kitimat it would have a tug escort and would be double hulled
Lets hope the Foss tug gets there soon and helps the ship to a safe place. its a very small container ship and talking about the small amount of fuel over the lives of the crew is just not right."
Not that I am pro oil. I am pro truth.
It is entertaining to watch the campaigners knee jerk reaction to this. Its embarrassing.
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As we all know Cohen accomplished very little, except it spend a lot of our taxpayers money
Well...it accomplished little for anti-fish farm activists that were looking for a stinging indictment of the BC fish farm industry. That's why folks like Rafe Mair and Alexandra Morton always misinterpret the Cohen Final Report or just plainly ignore the findings. There really is no "he said/she said" here or "maybe he meant this"....it's right there in the report. Taxpayers paid 26 million for it so they should read it. Cohen recognized that fish farms can pose a risk to wild salmon but didn't conclude that fish farms are the direct cause for Fraser Sockeye declines. In fact, there are many factors that were implicated in the final report. Rafe would rather not refer to Cohen because he knows that his opinion runs contrary to what we learned from the inquiry. However, it was the antis like Rafe that demanded the inquiry in the first place. This latest propaganda film as well as the one last year (Salmonconfidential) are just attempts to rewrite the Cohen Final Report because it wasn't the result people like Rafe was hoping for. This isn't about science and facts anymore - it's about feelings and emotions.
Like Dave, I am still waiting for Ms Morton's transparency on things like her Quesnel Lake samples and viral samples. Apparently, she was asking for 10K to get her water samples from Quesnel Lake analysed. Where is the accountability? She came into Likely like some saviour claiming to be supporting local First Nations, but really it looks more like a photo-op that is commonly associated with politicians. Apparently, this "blue sheen" was from the tailings breach and it stung like a jelly fish. Ok...well...if it was so toxic then lets see the results. Did any of those people that were apparently "stung" see medical attention as recommended by Interior Health? The fact is that we know what it is but Morton is too embarrassed to back track now.
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Beak, I know you would say that, are you afraid to talk to her directly, maybe you can change her mind as you and the PAP boys seem to know all the correct facts. ;D ;D
I recall Almo coming on this site, once. She was welcomed warmly and was asked a few tough questions that were not answered and she has not come back. Why do you think that is Chris?
I have no desire to talk to her but wonder why she relishes the headline seeking media but won't respond to a forum, like this one, that is so divided on this issue. Could she not further her cause by defending her words?
I suggest she is the one afraid.
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http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2014/09/licenced-to-kill-wild-salmon.html
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http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/fraser_sockeye_vs_farmed_/2014/09/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon.html
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http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/fraser_sockeye_vs_farmed_/2014/09/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon.html
Wow look at the comments at the end. AM taking some heavy comments on her blog:
As a student, scientist in training, and fish lover I find this very hard to believe. How can you exactly pinpoint that less salmon farms= more wild salmon. There are other factors that need to be considered here. Was there more food in the ocean for the sockeye this year? Maybe the number of predators have gone down. Were there fewer/more algae blooms this spring and summer? Was the temperature more ideal for the salmon? There are many things to consider before you go jumping the gun and saying that less salmon farms=more wild salmon.
I feel as though you are quick to make accusations without any proper data to back up your findings. You also extremely misinform the public. You claim that salmon farms dye the flesh pink.. however they do not at all. There is a certain carotenoid in their food, astaxanthin, which naturally causes the flesh to turn pink.
Salmon farms do not use hormones, but I know you have told the public otherwise... salmon farming is the most regulated industry in Canada.
I also wonder why you ignore Alaska's salmon ranching. Alaska pumps out millions of pinks and chums every year into the Pacific ocean to compete with our wild salmon. Alaska boasts about how it doesn't believe in salmon farming, however they just use a different word and are in direct contact with Pacific salmon. How can Alaska guarantee that their ranched salmon are not spawning with wild salmon? After all a ranched salmon is born in a hatchery.. and if that hatchery fish spawns with a wild fish it is messing with the wild salmon genetics.
Your claims are bogus and should be looked upon as void.
As a scientist, don't you think it is premature to state (or even imply) that the shutting down of salmon farms is the direct cause of increased salmon runs? Certainly, salmon runs in Alaska and Russia are not affected by farming in the Fraser river. I support your work and I think you are a great advocate for ensuring the longterm health of our rivers, but I don't think you are doing justice for the cause by making links that are not yet substantiated. I'm happy to see sockeye numbers rebound, but we don't yet know why. There are any number of plausible explanations for this: declining bear population, climate change causing warmer ocean temperatures or more runoff from glaciers. Let's find out the real answers before we claim victory. - See more at: http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/fraser_sockeye_vs_farmed_/2014/09/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon.html#sthash.mfkEIxy8.dpuf/quote]
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Wow look at the comments at the end. AM taking some heavy comments on her blog:
As a scientist, don't you think it is premature to state (or even imply) that the shutting down of salmon farms is the direct cause of increased salmon runs? Certainly, salmon runs in Alaska and Russia are not affected by farming in the Fraser river. I support your work and I think you are a great advocate for ensuring the longterm health of our rivers, but I don't think you are doing justice for the cause by making links that are not yet substantiated. I'm happy to see sockeye numbers rebound, but we don't yet know why. There are any number of plausible explanations for this: declining bear population, climate change causing warmer ocean temperatures or more runoff from glaciers. Let's find out the real answers before we claim victory. - See more at: http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/fraser_sockeye_vs_farmed_/2014/09/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon.html#sthash.mfkEIxy8.dpuf/quote]
We all get used of "heavy Comments " I take them here all the time. ;D ;D ;D
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Typically the "anti everything" types are quick to respond far before the actual facts surface. Ie: its not a tanker!
From the comments:
The fact is its not a Tanker, if it was it would have been more than 200 miles off shore. And if it was a tanker loaded with product in the future from Kitimat it would have a tug escort and would be double hulled
Lets hope the Foss tug gets there soon and helps the ship to a safe place. its a very small container ship and talking about the small amount of fuel over the lives of the crew is just not right."
Not that I am pro oil. I am pro truth.
It is entertaining to watch the campaigners knee jerk reaction to this. Its embarrassing.
What about all the other oil spills. Herer is a list for you.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills#Complete
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Salmon farms are a strong correlate with elevated prespawn mortality, lower productivity and higher unpredictability in fraser sockeye, but the even stronger factor that cannot be ignored is the mortality related signature found by DFO scientist, Dr. Miller. Millions of sockeye were dying in the Fraser just before spawning. No one could figure out why until Miller began reading their immune system via genomic profiling. Suddenly there was a pattern. The sockeye that were dying were fighting a virus, the ones that were surviving were not. While her work was terminated before the virus could be found and reported on, the response by the fish's immune system suggested a retrovirus, tumors, Leukemia. In the 1990s DFO discovered, named and reported on Salmon Leukemia virus in most, if not all the salmon farms in the Discovery Islands. They exposed sockeye to it and found it infected the sockeye. These are facts, but there has been no follow work done. – Alexandra Morton
How are salmon farms a strong correlate with elevated prespawn mortality, lower productivity and higher unpredictability in Fraser Sockeye? Cohen didn’t see it that way so where is she getting this from – oh yeah, it’s her own feelings and emotions coming into play. There is concern for elevated prespawn mortality, but folks need to understand that there is nothing abnormal about prespawn mortality in general terms. Generally speaking, you will find increased prespawn mortality at the very beginning as the Sockeye enter their natal stream or lake, but as they approach peak of spawn the spawning success will improve. There can be some parts of the watershed that will experience high prespawn mortality whereas other areas in the same season will be quite normal as compared to historical averages.
In 2009 (the year that initiated the Cohen inquiry), spawning success for Fraser Sockeye was actually good when compared to other years like in the late 90’s in the mid’2000s. There can be systems with low prespawn mortality, but a high prevalence of IHNv and vice versa. Last season, high prespawn mortality was anticipated with prolonged Fraser water temperatures, but that high prespawn mortality never materialized. Salmon farms, as far as I know, were operating then. So, if Morton wants to play games and suggest that there is a strong collorate there then go ahead.
As for lower productivity, if you look at the work from Randall Peterman who provided testimony at the inquiry he found productivity declines in not only Fraser Sockeye stocks, but also non-Fraser Sockeye stocks - in Canada and the US. Don’t take my word for it – it’s in the Final report and the technical report (#10). Morton knows it’s in there, but she chooses to ignore it.
We found that most Fraser and many non-Fraser sockeye stocks, both in Canada and the U.S.A., show a decrease in productivity, especially over the last decade, and often also over a period of decline starting in the late 1980s or early 1990s. Thus, declines since the
late 1980s have occurred over a much larger area than just the Fraser River system and are not unique to it. This observation that productivity has followed shared trends over a much larger area than just the Fraser River system is a very important new finding. More
specifically, there have been relatively large, rapid, and consistent decreases in sockeye productivity since the late 1990s in many areas along the west coast of North America, including the following stocks (from south to north). – Randall Peterman and Brigitte Dorner (Cohen Technical Report 10; page 2)
As for calling Dr. Miller’s discovery a “virus” well the fact is that although Miller was very confident that it could be a virus she didn’t have the evidence to conclusively call it a virus – nor could she say that it actually caused disease. Dr. Miller testified that the earliest she found this mortality-related signature was in November, before fish were going to smolt in their natal rearing areas. Don’t take my word for it – it’s in the report. Morton knows it’s in there but she chooses to ignore it.
As for the presence of tumours….well what did Cohen have to say about Dr. Miller's response:
Dr. Miller agreed that in a meeting of DFO scientists she distributed a paper entitled “Epidemic of a novel, cancer-causing viral disease may be associated with wild salmon declines in B.C.” This paper was based on literature relating to the salmon leukemia virus, which was thought to involve optic tumours. Samples she examined carried very heavy vascularization on the outside of the optic lobe, but subsequent analysis showed these to be hemorrhages, not tumours.– Justice Bruce Cohen (Cohen Final Report; Vol. 2; Ch. 4; pg. 35)
Please know I have done 10 years of extensive field work examining juvenile salmon as they approach and swim past salmon farms. I have co-published over 20 papers on this. There is nothing off-the-cuff about my views. - Alexandra Morton
That is one of the biggest flaws of her “research”. There is more to the life history of Fraser Sockeye than the juveniles swimming past salmon farms. They swim past a lot of things. Her comments come across as arrogant – as if she already knows it all while in fact there is much we still need to learn. The ocean phase of Fraser Sockeye is the least most understood. Currently work is being done to track the migration of Sockeye smolts from there natal areas to the saltwater utilizing telemetry and ocean tracking (POST). For someone that has co-published over 20 papers (correlative data and mathematical models) on this she has no idea where Sockeye spawn in Quesnel Lake or much about Harrison Sockeye. My cat is more of an authority on Fraser Sockeye than Alexandra Morton.
Doug - As stated in this blog, clearly something very good went on in the open Pacific. This generation of salmon found enough food to sustain themselves. For 18 - years British Columbia salmon returning to the Fraser River could not survive, even when runs from other countries were thriving. This suggests something was hitting them that was not hitting sockeye from the US and Russia. This year BC joined the ranks of countries enjoying good salmon runs. Whatever was suppressing BC wild salmon appears to have been lifted. We know the salmon farming industry uses salmon infected with pathogens, because they argued in favour of being allowed to continue doing this court in June. - Alexandra Morton
Clearly there is more going on than just salmon farms should have been the response, but then why try to ruin a great story. Once again she fails to note the low productivity noted in non-Fraser Sockeye stocks in both the US and Canada. Scott Hinch? Scott who? Also, no mention of massive numbers of smolts released by countries like Russia, Japan and the US (Alaska) from ocean ranching. In BC, farmed salmon juveniles are released into net pens disease-free.
PRV (which has been beat to death like a dead horse) is found in Atlantic salmon which show no signs of disease (i.e. HSMI). Additionally, it has been found in Pacific salmonids which show no signs of disease. Salmon that have high concentrations of PRV do not show corresponding signs of disease either. She talks about her recent study (low sample size, single year, computer modelling), but fails to mention that a recent study found that PRV found in BC farmed and wild salmon isn’t so new, but in fact has been around since 1977.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jfd.12285/abstract