Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: VAGAbond on August 06, 2014, 08:03:29 PM
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In my opinion most fishers are not greedy and will not take unlimited fish. Consider Joe who would like about a dozen sockeye from this bountiful run, 3 fresh for the barby over a couple of weeks of fishing, 4 to give to friends and 5 for the freezer. At two a day this will take perhaps 7 days on the bars, allowing for one day when the fishing gods don't smile on Joe.
Once Joe has committed to the day and driven two hours from Richmond and caught his two fish, why hey make a day of it. Try for a Chinook and do a little catch and release on the sockeye with the result he is on the bar most of the day.
If the limit were 4 a day, Joe might stay home after four days fishing and do some chores around the house. After all he has caught quite a few and he isn't greedy.
Out of the multitude of licensed fishers between White Rock and Hope, there are perhaps 5000 like Joe who can fish the days they want. If this example is correct, that would be 15000 extra man days on the bars due to the two fish limit.
I wonder why we have the two fish limit when these sockeye are fished with gill nets and purse seines all the way from Port Hardy? In 2010 they had seine boats up in Kamloops Lake and a four fish limit in the Thompson when the fish are much deteriorated compared to the Fraser Valley.
So what is your opinion, does the two fish limit lead to crowding of the fishing bars?
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I would fish less days if I could keep 4 a day....I think that would be the better way to do it. As it is now, I don't care because I take my 3 kids out and keep 8 each trip. Makes it really easy to get the meat I want for the freezer and canner.
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While it sounds good on paper, methinks human greed would eventually catch up and people would want to keep 8 and so on.....
As for the crowding, I don't know what's to come on weekends and as the run picks up, but I was out today without rod and reel and found two bars completely devoid of people that were conducive to bottom bouncing. If you don't like standing in line with every Tom, Dick and Harry do some exploring, you'll be surprised what you might find, just respect private property and use a little common sense......
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In my opinion most fishers are not greedy and will not take unlimited fish. Consider Joe who would like about a dozen sockeye from this bountiful run, 3 fresh for the barby over a couple of weeks of fishing, 4 to give to friends and 5 for the freezer. At two a day this will take perhaps 7 days on the bars, allowing for one day when the fishing gods don't smile on Joe.
Once Joe has committed to the day and driven two hours from Richmond and caught his two fish, why hey make a day of it. Try for a Chinook and do a little catch and release on the sockeye with the result he is on the bar most of the day.
If the limit were 4 a day, Joe might stay home after four days fishing and do some chores around the house. After all he has caught quite a few and he isn't greedy.
Out of the multitude of licensed fishers between White Rock and Hope, there are perhaps 5000 like Joe who can fish the days they want. If this example is correct, that would be 15000 extra man days on the bars due to the two fish limit.
I wonder why we have the two fish limit when these sockeye are fished with gill nets and purse seines all the way from Port Hardy? In 2010 they had seine boats up in Kamloops Lake and a four fish limit in the Thompson when the fish are much deteriorated compared to the Fraser Valley.
So what is your opinion, does the two fish limit lead to crowding of the fishing bars?
I agree, I have always thought it odd I can kill 4 in the tidal but not the nontidal??
Feds vs provincial I guess?
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Members of the Sport Fishing Advisory Committee in the Fraser Valley including myself made the recommendation to the resource manager for the Lower Fraser at DFO back in March, to increase the daily quota to 4 per day once in-season estimate determines that we will be seeing a run size similar to 2010. The recommendation was made to deal with this particular issue. If there is an abundance of fish, we'd like to see participants retaining their four fish and go home right away since they no longer have the option to retain other salmon species. Participants may also decide to do less trips as they could retain twice as many fish per trip. This would hopefully eliminate the crowding issue. More importantly, it'd hopefully stop people from catching and releasing sockeye salmon while trying to retain a chinook salmon. I'd rather see people killing four fish, instead of killing two fish then possibly causing post-release mortality on another dozen.
The alternative is to reduce the aggregate salmon daily quota to two per day, but somehow I doubt that's very popular among people. ;)
Will it be increased to four? Keep an eye on the website for updates.
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Never could understand the logic of 2 fish per day in non-tidal and 4 in the tidal sections.
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Feds vs provincial I guess?
No, the province has nothing to do with managing salmon in freshwater.
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No, the province has nothing to do with managing salmon in freshwater.
Is it just trout in non tidal?
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I would agree with the 4 fish limit for the non tidal. I am not sure I agree with the stopping of fishing for conservation purposes after 4.There is no such restriction in the salt water for the same run of salmon. This is akin to steelhead rules where you must stop fishing if you retain a hatchery fish. Which in my opinion has suspect logic as you could have fished all day for wild fish otherwise. I suspect many will is extend keeping the 4th sockeye for a chance at a spring.
However if it is done for purpose of lessening the crowds I am all for it.
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Members of the Sport Fishing Advisory Committee in the Fraser Valley including myself made the recommendation to the resource manager for the Lower Fraser at DFO back in March, to increase the daily quota to 4 per day once in-season estimate determines that we will be seeing a run size similar to 2010. The recommendation was made to deal with this particular issue. If there is an abundance of fish, we'd like to see participants retaining their four fish and go home right away since they no longer have the option to retain other salmon species. Participants may also decide to do less trips as they could retain twice as many fish per trip. This would hopefully eliminate the crowding issue. More importantly, it'd hopefully stop people from catching and releasing sockeye salmon while trying to retain a chinook salmon. I'd rather see people killing four fish, instead of killing two fish then possibly causing post-release mortality on another dozen.
The alternative is to reduce the aggregate salmon daily quota to two per day, but somehow I doubt that's very popular among people. ;)
Will it be increased to four? Keep an eye on the website for updates.
While this sounds good on paper, you will still have people getting there four fish, taking them home or hiding them and returning to the river to get four more.
Solve the problem by keeping it a two fish a day limit and have them fill out the license the same way you have to with Springs, 10 fish(sockeye) per year limit.
And one more thing,,,outlaw bottom flossing so those of us seeking peace and quite can keep bar fishing!
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I would agree with the 4 fish limit for the non tidal. I am not sure I agree with the stopping of fishing for conservation purposes after 4.There is no such restriction in the salt water for the same run of salmon. This is akin to steelhead rules where you must stop fishing if you retain a hatchery fish. Which in my opinion has suspect logic as you could have fished all day for wild fish otherwise. I suspect many will is extend keeping the 4th sockeye for a chance at a spring.
However if it is done for purpose of lessening the crowds I am all for it.
There wouldn't be an additional regulation to stop participants from fishing once they retain their four fish. The idea is that most will stop fishing voluntarily once they kill their limit and go home. Not sure about others, but if I were to go out and my only intention is to harvest some fish for the freezer, I'd want to go home once that's accomplished instead of standing in the crowd under the hot sun for no reason.
While this sounds good on paper, you will still have people getting there four fish, taking them home or hiding them and returning to the river to get four more.
Solve the problem by keeping it a two fish a day limit and have them fill out the license the same way you have to with Springs, 10 fish(sockeye) per year limit.
And one more thing,,,outlaw bottom flossing so those of us seeking peace and quite can keep bar fishing!
Of course not, any management measures can't prevent poaching. If people want to break the rules, they will do so anyway. That's a whole other issue.
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Never could understand the logic of 2 fish per day in non-tidal and 4 in the tidal sections.
X2
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I would have to agree with Rodney people will break rules when fishing or many other activities. Skying out of bounds, hunting violations etc. I have fished the sockeye in the Fraser for years and find the amount of anglers willfully cheating the same as other fisheries it is just more noticeable as they are right beside you and in larger numbers. I have seen the same behaviour in other rivers, on lakes and in the chuck. I often find it more willful in these cases as people believe they can get away with more if they are not seen.
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I would have to agree with Rodney people will break rules when fishing or many other activities. Skying out of bounds, hunting violations etc. I have fished the sockeye in the Fraser for years and find the amount of anglers willfully cheating the same as other fisheries it is just more noticeable as they are right beside you and in larger numbers. I have seen the same behaviour in other rivers, on lakes and in the chuck. I often find it more willful in these cases as people believe they can get away with more if they are not seen.
Yes there are people who break the rules but there are many and I would say most who follow them.
The four fish limit will not send people home who are targeting springs as they will likely release fish once they hit three or will just keep passing the fish along to those who do not have their limit as is the standard practice at these busy bars.
If DFO was serious bringing the limit down to two fish total (perhaps in region two only) including all salmon species is likely the best way to limit the crowds. There will still be problems with people passing along their fish but a smaller limit means that everyone will hit it sooner and leave.
Of course fewer fish to keep = more unhappy fishers;)
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Never could understand the logic of 2 fish per day in non-tidal and 4 in the tidal sections.
If you can afford a boat and kill your fish in private you get four. If you are a poor man and walking and kill your fish in public, you get two. Some people don't like seeing other people kill fish.
Seriously, in the tidal zone, especially in salt water, the stocks are mixed. In the non-tidal is is much clearer which stock you are fishing. The logic of two vs four doesn't make sense when there is an acknowledged surplus in the stock in the non-tidal zone. It should be the other way around.
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Seriously, in the tidal zone, especially in salt water, the stocks are mixed. In the non-tidal is is much clearer which stock you are fishing. The logic of two vs four doesn't make sense when there is an acknowledged surplus in the stock in the non-tidal zone. It should be the other way around.
Actually, there's almost no difference between the stock compositions in tidal and non-tidal as opening times are adjusted accordingly based on stock identifications in the test fisheries' catches. When you're catching fish in the non-tidal portion of the Fraser River, you're still fishing unselectively as all the upper, mid and some lower tributary stocks are still mixed together.
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If it gets raised to 4 a day, it will make the journey from Kitsilano far more worthwhile.
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It would almost be nice if there was just a season limit. You get 10 sockeye per year. Period. You have to mark them on your license like Chinook. If you want to catch all 10 of your fish on the first day, great. You want to wait until toward the end of the season to avoid the crowds, perfect.
I could see the early runs getting hammered though as everyone wants their fish first but maybe it wouldn't be that bad. Every other year this wouldn't work because specific runs need more support although no retention is always a possibility.
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There would have to be enforcement though. Otherwise people will just print multiple copies of their license and keep multiple retention limits until caught.
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Actually, (sorry for the multiple posts) that brings up an enhancement that I think should be done.
I think the licenses should have a place for DFO officers to sign, date, and indicate number of fish. If you get checked, they check you, sign your license and indicate the number of fish you have recorded on your license.
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Actually, (sorry for the multiple posts) that brings up an enhancement that I think should be done.
I think the licenses should have a place for DFO officers to sign, date, and indicate number of fish. If you get checked, they check you, sign your license and indicate the number of fish you have recorded on your license.
And where are you going to get all those DFO officers to enforce the new regulations. We don't have enough enforcement with the regulations we now have.
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Does the two sockeye limit lead to crowding on the bars? YES, it should be 0 sockeye in the river.
now that sounds peacefull.
we were given 2, now we want 4, then we will want 6.
4 sockeye will lead to more over crowdiing, it would get more people off the couch since it would be worth the gas to go out there.
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Let's see:
Gas per trip to a productive Fraser river bar: 50$
Terminal tackle: 10$
Food, coffee, incidentals: 20$
Total per trip: 80$
That puts each sockeye at 40$ when the limit is 2, 20$ each if the limit was 4.
Compare that to fresh sockeye straight out of the net from your friendly FN provider at 10$/fish.
I think I know where I will get the fish I need and focus on other fisheries.
More room for you guys. :P
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And where are you going to get all those DFO officers to enforce the new regulations. We don't have enough enforcement with the regulations we now have.
Doesn't require any additional officers. Just adds one small step to their checking you. Might result in extra time writing tickets but probably not.
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Let's see:
Gas per trip to a productive Fraser river bar: 50$
Terminal tackle: 10$
Food, coffee, incidentals: 20$
Total per trip: 80$
That puts each sockeye at 40$ when the limit is 2, 20$ each if the limit was 4.
Compare that to fresh sockeye straight out of the net from your friendly FN provider at 10$/fish.
I think I know where I will get the fish I need and focus on other fisheries.
More room for you guys. :P
Sucks to be you.
I live in Chilliwack 3 minutes from the Fraser
Gas per trip to a productive Fraser river bar ( including boat trip if needed): 2$
Terminal tackle: (Less than 50 casts to get my limit) 2$ or less
Food, coffee, incidentals: 0$ I'm home for breakfast most times with my limit in hand
Total per trip: less than 4$
That puts each sockeye at 2$ when the limit is 2, 1$ each if the limit was 4.
As for my friendly FN provider....I won't be the one to encourage their illegal and unethical out of back of their truck sales of fish that have been sitting in the heat all day that aren't as fresh as you claim.
Less room for you guys
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Yup. Stop FN selling fish by confiscating the vehicle of anyone caught buying.
That'll stop Milo ;D
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My retained fish would likely come in over $100 per pound if I calculated what I spent vs what I caught. I love fishing, but would like to do a bit more catching.
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Given mine includes a flight from TN, I'm pretty sure mine would come in at quite a hefty price. I only fish a little bit for the food, not usually eating it myself but giving it away to people in TN who have never had salmon anywhere near this fresh. The price is not a concern to me.
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If one needs to try and make an economic justification to go out fishing, then you’re going to have a bad time. For the majority of people, cost of gas/gear/time >> just buying them from the fish market.
Being able to keep something for the BBQ is a nice perk, no argument here, but if that’s how someone measures success, then they’re probably going to come out on the short end of that calculation.
As for the OP question, it would be interesting to see how much crowding would be reduced if the limit was raised to 4. Some people would leave right away. Some would release all sockeye after 3 in hopes of a spring. Some would continue to fish and release everything after 4 simply because they’re having a fun time of it out there, and that would be perfectly legal.
And isn't it plausible that raising the limit could actually motivate a lot more people to make the trip out who wouldn't otherwise go and as a result would be just as crowded or maybe even worse anyways?
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If one needs to try and make an economic justification to go out fishing, then you’re going to have a bad time.
I thought we were talking sockeye harvesting here, not fishing. ::)
Flossing fish with 15 foot leaders is not fishing in my books.
But I guess for some it is the only form of 'fishing' they know.
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If one needs to try and make an economic justification to go out fishing, then you’re going to have a bad time. For the majority of people, cost of gas/gear/time >> just buying them from the fish market.
Being able to keep something for the BBQ is a nice perk, no argument here, but if that’s how someone measures success, then they’re probably going to come out on the short end of that calculation.
As for the OP question, it would be interesting to see how much crowding would be reduced if the limit was raised to 4. Some people would leave right away. Some would release all sockeye after 3 in hopes of a spring. Some would continue to fish and release everything after 4 simply because they’re having a fun time of it out there, and that would be perfectly legal.
And isn't it plausible that raising the limit could actually motivate a lot more people to make the trip out who wouldn't otherwise go and as a result would be just as crowded or maybe even worse anyways?
Very good points, will keep those in mind when making recommendations in the future.
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If one needs to try and make an economic justification to go out fishing, then you’re going to have a bad time. For the majority of people, cost of gas/gear/time >> just buying them from the fish market.
Being able to keep something for the BBQ is a nice perk, no argument here, but if that’s how someone measures success, then they’re probably going to come out on the short end of that calculation.
As for the OP question, it would be interesting to see how much crowding would be reduced if the limit was raised to 4. Some people would leave right away. Some would release all sockeye after 3 in hopes of a spring. Some would continue to fish and release everything after 4 simply because they’re having a fun time of it out there, and that would be perfectly legal.
And isn't it plausible that raising the limit could actually motivate a lot more people to make the trip out who wouldn't otherwise go and as a result would be just as crowded or maybe even worse anyways?
Good points.
Given the popularity of this fishery, the number of people that are on the fence about going or not going based on whether the limits are two or four may not be that great. I also have my doubts about whether raising the limits will actually significantly reduce the number of trips. This fishery was much anticipated months ago and many have booked off vacation time. They will go regardless.
If they do go to a 4 fish limit, they will need to make some modifications to the rules that are currently in place:
-all fish hooked in the mouth area must be retained (no C&R).
-must stop fishing after the 4th fish is retained (same as the steelie rule)
-cannot retain any Chinook salmon over 50 cm. unless caught using a bar rig setup (can easily be defined in the regs)
-these rules apply to the fraser sockeye fishery only and not to any other river systems.
Those rules will hopefully help with the crowding and more importantly the number of fish hooked and release whom in my opinion have a very small chance of survival.
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From what I see and read on this site many do not approve of the Fraser river sockeye fishing and BB. That is fine you are all untitled to your opinion.
From what I can see great number of anglers do not agree by the shear numbers of people fishing sockeye. I can sympathize with those who do not like the fact it brings on crowds.
I BB for sockeye as I enjoy it. It is still fun to reel in a salmon on light tackle not terribly concerned that some do not find it sporting. It is not economical but fishing rarely is. Restrictive rules such as 10 sockeye limits, no spring retention and no catch and release do not fly with me. For me the 2 or 4 sockeye retention would make no difference. The Fraser river sockeye catch and release studies to date I am aware of show no significant sockeye mortality. Many may not agree with them but in the absence of other information they are all there is to go by. All catch and release fishing has mortality. Eduction for those that mishandle fish would be of benefit.
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The Fraser river sockeye catch and release studies to date I am aware of show no significant sockeye mortality. Many may not agree with them but in the absence of other information they are all there is to go by. All catch and release fishing has mortality. Eduction for those that mishandle fish would be of benefit.
This is I believe (hopefully someone can correct me if wrong) the only study on catch and release mortalities on Fraser sockeye; the discussion suggests much more research is needed to gauge long term mortalities.
http://www.thinksalmon.com/reports/FraserSockeyeHookReleaseMortality08FSWP175.pdf
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I thought we were talking sockeye harvesting here, not fishing. ::)
Flossing fish with 15 foot leaders is not fishing in my books.
But I guess for some it is the only form of 'fishing' they know.
OK, who are you and what did you do with Milo?
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Good points.
Given the popularity of this fishery, the number of people that are on the fence about going or not going based on whether the limits are two or four may not be that great. I also have my doubts about whether raising the limits will actually significantly reduce the number of trips. This fishery was much anticipated months ago and many have booked off vacation time. They will go regardless.
If they do go to a 4 fish limit, they will need to make some modifications to the rules that are currently in place:
-all fish hooked in the mouth area must be retained (no C&R).
Impossible to enforce. Oops it got off.
-must stop fishing after the 4th fish is retained (same as the steelie rule)
Okay
-cannot retain any Chinook salmon over 50 cm. unless caught using a bar rig setup (can easily be defined in the regs)
Impossible to enforce. The officer would have to be sitting on shore and accompany you out to chase your fish to see if you had a bar rig.
-these rules apply to the fraser sockeye fishery only and not to any other river systems.
Those rules will hopefully help with the crowding and more importantly the number of fish hooked and release whom in my opinion have a very small chance of survival.
4 fish won't lessen crowding. My experience is that most people go home after their sockeye limit is full.
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Most people go home after they catch their limit. This is a meat fishery and has a lot to do with filling up the Fraser. Increasing the limit may not lessen the crowds at the start of the season but on d the freezers are filled up, it will decrease the frequency and number of trips to the bars. That may only have an impact if there is a long Openning like what we had in 2010.
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You dont have to buy them off FN you can buy them off the commercial guys. Just down the street from me I can get them. $10/fish x 10 fish is $100. Gas to and from a bar in Chilliwack is $50 atleast x 5 trips is $250 plus my time, plus the stress of fishing shoulder to shoulder, plus your snagging fish. Nope you guys go and have at it!!! No preaching from me I just I like my sanity.
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i remember the good old days of flossing the sox's.... 4 per day and u could fish all night and walk out with ur limit !
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i remember the good old days of flossing the sox's.... 4 per day and u could fish all night and walk out with ur limit !
Oh the good old days, I remember bar fishing for coho in the lower Fraser and have double headers on the bar rig. 2 cohos flailing around on the same rod.
Yes times have change.
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Oh the good old days, I remember bar fishing for coho in the lower Fraser and have double headers on the bar rig. 2 cohos flailing around on the same rod.
Yes times have change.
Or double headers of cutthroats off Brownsville pier
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OK, who are you and what did you do with Milo?
LOL Bruce! ;D
Hey, at least now I know that wool colour doesn't matter. :P
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Rodney said
Members of the Sport Fishing Advisory Committee in the Fraser Valley including myself made the recommendation to the resource manager for the Lower Fraser at DFO back in March, to increase the daily quota to 4 per day once in-season estimate determines that we will be seeing a run size similar to 2010. The recommendation was made to deal with this particular issue. If there is an abundance of fish, we'd like to see participants retaining their four fish and go home right away since they no longer have the option to retain other salmon species. Participants may also decide to do less trips as they could retain twice as many fish per trip. This would hopefully eliminate the crowding issue. More importantly, it'd hopefully stop people from catching and releasing sockeye salmon while trying to retain a chinook salmon. I'd rather see people killing four fish, instead of killing two fish then possibly causing post-release mortality on another dozen.
There is an abundance of fish, enough to turn the seine boats loose and support multiple gill net openings. The recreational harvest is still at two fish. Who decides? Can we know the reason to restrict the recreational harvest? I know some don't agree with flossing but others don't see it as any different than harvesting a clam or oyster.
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is the limit ever going to be 4? Id like to see that happen so these guys stop trying to floss chinooks.
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Members of the Sport Fishing Advisory Committee in the Fraser Valley including myself made the recommendation to the resource manager for the Lower Fraser at DFO back in March, to increase the daily quota to 4 per day once in-season estimate determines that we will be seeing a run size similar to 2010.( from Rodney.)
well the run size is not up to 2010 late run est. 12.5mil well below 2010 summer run higher by about 1 million. now the late run has not entered the river yet in any numbers so still time to go to 4 in sept.
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A number of times I've seen boats loaded with little kids pull up on a bar and the dad (?) proceed to pull out two fish per kid plus the two each for himself and wife (?)(who would dispatch and process each fish so he wouldn't have to stop flossing). So they would leave with say 16 sockeye, and may be covered if caught transporting that quantity. Guy next to me said that was illegal unless each kid had a license, even though kids don't need a license to fish themselves.
Can anyone clarify this?
Course if the limit was increased to 4, they'd be going home with 32 fish instead of 16... what's with that?
Is "borrowing" the kids of friends and neighbors to increase your limit ethical and/or legal.
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When you pose the question if an action is ethical more often than not just asking means it's not through your eyes. Legally if the kids and wife land them at the shore I think it's fine in the eyes of the law but if he is just snagging and keeping them all it's illegal and would be subject to a fine if caught.
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As im assuming your talking the non tidal fraser then re. Licensing they are legal unless he forgot to get one for his wife.
If it is the tidal fraser the kids need a license.
However the quota is per person who is fishing, not per person with just a license.
In other words he is breaking the law.
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Actually the quota is per license, unless you are not a BC resident. :)
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/fish/licences/#Younger
It's still illegal, as the wife and kids did not catch the fish. The anglers can only retain fish that they bring in on their own, their quota is not for fish that are given to them. Technically, this guy is 14 fish over the limit. If observed by a DFO officer, he'd be fined and gear would be confiscated. Someone should have phoned the office while this was happening if it wasn't reported. Even if the fish are already kept and no action is observed, the kid still has to demonstrate that he or she has the ability to angle. If clearly that a 3 or 4 year old cannot even hold a salmon rod, then he'd still be fined.
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Furthermore, I believe there is a possession quota. I'm not entire sure how it applies as I hardly limit out...
But maybe someone could shed light on how it works.
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Should have clarified better, meant the quota does not apply as 8 fish for 4 people if all have licenses/some are kids if only 1 guy is fishing.
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Members of the Sport Fishing Advisory Committee in the Fraser Valley including myself made the recommendation to the resource manager for the Lower Fraser at DFO back in March, to increase the daily quota to 4 per day once in-season estimate determines that we will be seeing a run size similar to 2010.
It doesn't seem reasonable to me for the ocean tidal limit to be four and the river limit set at two. Make them the same. Or if you buy a boat and fish the ocean you get different treatment than if you have to walk?
Actually, there's almost no difference between the stock compositions in tidal and non-tidal as opening times are adjusted accordingly based on stock identifications in the test fisheries' catches. When you're catching fish in the non-tidal portion of the Fraser River, you're still fishing unselectively as all the upper, mid and some lower tributary stocks are still mixed together.
OK, sort of, but when you are fishing out of Telegraph Cove or Campbell River, the stocks are mixed. When you fish near Hope you know you are not catching Birkenhead or Chilliwack fish and it can probably be determined fairly accurately if you are likely to catch Horsefly or Chilcotin fish. You can't know that in Discovery passage.