Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on November 12, 2013, 09:00:52 PM
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Found these abandoned dead coho with a slit abdomen today. First one was a hatchery-marked fish but fairly dark. Second one was a wild fish.
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc90/fishingwithrod/2013/131112-2_zps278ce18c.jpg)
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc90/fishingwithrod/2013/131112-3_zps00e53a03.jpg)
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That's unfortunate to be happening on that system. The sport really needs some changes to fix this stuff.
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It's their new method of spawning, Rodney.
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gross misconduct.
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gross misconduct.
Couldn't have said it any better.
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i've witness a shady looking person slit his two chums and take the roe and leave awhile ago this year. This guy just gave off a bad vibe from the moment he showed up. :o This person was just staring me down as if i was the opposition in some gang war. Every time i watched someone pull in a fish beside him i could see him giving me a glare >:(. Then it got hairy at one point he reached in pocket and pulls out his filet knife as if i was confronting him and proceeded to just stare at me and give the "visual body language" got a problem?. 5 minutes later, i see him pack it up and gut the roe out and high tail it out of there. :o, i don't know what cereal he ate for breakfast but holy crap that just shocked me. I got wife waiting at home and this kind of bullcrap is not the kind of day i want to intervene.
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I've seen 5 coho (3 from the vedder and all wild) and 2 chums this year that were killed for their eggs.
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It's extremely sad what people will do to get roe around here. Why not be a real fisherman, and use artificial and catch your doe PROPERLY. I have and will continue to confront and report people I see doing this as it boils my blood.
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It's extremely sad what people will do to get roe around here. Why not be a real fisherman, and use artificial and catch your doe PROPERLY. I have and will continue to confront and report people I see doing this as it boils my blood.
I wish I were man enough and large enough to do this. Sickening. :( >:(
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Sad to see guides doing it on the stave to chum does to get sturgeon bait. Was there one day as a jet pulled up below us in our boat. Two guys and two little kids hop out, they hook and kill a doe. Drag it up on shore about 10 yards and bonk it. About 30 minutes later they gut the fish for the eggs, hop in their river hawk jet and move up to join their buddies a couple boats up from us. I was going to grab the fish and walk it up to them and toss it into their boat saying they forgot it back there. After thinking about it I didn't want to have to deal with some cops as these douche bags would probably have taken a swing because their boat floor got some slime on it.
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I really don't get it...I'll take the roe from doe's I've caught so I can catch more fish...but to see or hear of salmon (hatchery at that) being slit for their eggs just baffles me. I didn't realize there was such a black market for them....idiots.
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Wow... how much does a container of cured roe run at a fishing store, $7-8? Seems like an awful lot of work.
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After reading all the above posts, I'm still trying to get my head around the inconsiderate actions and waste of finite resource.
If, $7 buy a container of roe, wouldn't it be better to buy and support an industry where the rest of the fish will be process for other uses or consumption.
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I believe First Nations people are allowed to legally do this, but I don't want to divert the topic to a native bashing one. I just hate to see a waste of anything.
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What do you think the commercial opening were for. Trust me it wasnt for human consumption. Two years ago we had a pink commercial opening just for roe (Russia), no bucks wanted. We allow this. I dont think the last opening for chum was for human food ether, more or less and excuse for coho or roe.
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Sad to see guides doing it on the stave to chum does to get sturgeon bait. Was there one day as a jet pulled up below us in our boat. Two guys and two little kids hop out, they hook and kill a doe. Drag it up on shore about 10 yards and bonk it. About 30 minutes later they gut the fish for the eggs, hop in their river hawk jet and move up to join their buddies a couple boats up from us. I was going to grab the fish and walk it up to them and toss it into their boat saying they forgot it back there. After thinking about it I didn't want to have to deal with some cops as these douche bags would probably have taken a swing because their boat floor got some slime on it.
Now THAT is disgusting. How people can do that and not even think it's wrong at all baffles me.... And it sucks to not speak up because of being afraid of a violent confrontation.
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What do you think the commercial opening were for. Trust me it wasnt for human consumption. Two years ago we had a pink commercial opening just for roe (Russia), no bucks wanted. We allow this. I dont think the last opening for chum was for human food ether, more or less and excuse for coho or roe.
I've heard of this done in the states before too. Selling the eggs to Japan so that they wouldn't have to buy our salmon, they could grow it themselves. They would toss the bucks back into the river dead, the does they would slice, take the eggs, and toss them back too.
Greed is a powerful enemy.
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Killing rhinos for their horns, elephants for their tusks, leopards for their furs, sharks for their fins, fish for their roe...Nothing new. It's been done since the dawn of mankind.
When the last salmon dies, then it will stop. Human greed knows no boundaries.
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Human greed knows no boundaries.
sums it up nicely
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Something that should be added to the regs although in better wording is that dead fish on or in a river are not to be removed for use as bait. I was thinking that maybe the wild fish had already died and washed up on the shore before being slit open for roe. I know MANY guides take dead fish or their roe if they died prespawn for sturgeon bait all the time on many systems.
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Something that should be added to the regs although in better wording is that dead fish on or in a river are not to be removed for use as bait. I was thinking that maybe the wild fish had already died and washed up on the shore before being slit open for roe. I know MANY guides take dead fish or their roe if they died prespawn for sturgeon bait all the time on many systems.
Just out of curiosity, what is the harm in this? The eggs are not going to be fertilized and therefore turned into new fish. I guess it is removing nutrients from the system but other than that, I don't understand what the big deal is. What am I missing?
If it is to make sure that people aren't killing fish for the roe and saying they were already dead, I could see that.
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If it is to make sure that people aren't killing fish for the roe and saying they were already dead, I could see that.
you just answered your own question
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Something that should be added to the regs although in better wording is that dead fish on or in a river are not to be removed for use as bait. I was thinking that maybe the wild fish had already died and washed up on the shore before being slit open for roe. I know MANY guides take dead fish or their roe if they died prespawn for sturgeon bait all the time on many systems.
Don't the regs already clearly state no fin fish as bait except for sturgeon?
While there is no excuse for the wild one being slit maybe there is a reasonable explanation for the hatch...
If the guy only wanted the roe, and he was using legal techniques and stuff, its better to leave the fish at the river than toss it in the trash at home right? Or is this strictly against regs?
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Don't the regs already clearly state no fin fish as bait except for sturgeon?
While there is no excuse for the wild one being slit maybe there is a reasonable explanation for the hatch...
If the guy only wanted the roe, and he was using legal techniques and stuff, its better to leave the fish at the river than toss it in the trash at home right? Or is this strictly against regs?
Why not bring the fish home, take the roe, and give the fish to a neighbor or somebody hard on their luck?
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Could be another reasonable explanation as well...
This year on the Vedder I wacked and bled a 12 pound hatch buck... 20 mins later I saw my fish floating down the river in front of me. It had somehow hopped off the stick I had pounded into the ground and back into the water (had it upstream of me where I couldn't watch it as I was fishing knee deep water downstream). The hatch doe I had was still on the stick.. no idea still how that buck got off.
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Don't the regs already clearly state no fin fish as bait except for sturgeon?
While there is no excuse for the wild one being slit maybe there is a reasonable explanation for the hatch...
If the guy only wanted the roe, and he was using legal techniques and stuff, its better to leave the fish at the river than toss it in the trash at home right? Or is this strictly against regs?
The problem is, he/she can keep fishing and keep slitting fish if he is not keeping any. Where do you draw the line?
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Both fish in question appear to be pre spawn mortalities that the bait was removed from. Note the missing eyes on both fish that appear to have been dead for a day or two. Not something I would care to eat. Numerous female coho morts were encountered over a two month period on the Vedder/Chilliwack. Killing female chum for their roe is more of an issue and should be addressed.
I have to laugh at how many people said that they were going to smoke their chum catch only to discard the carcass.
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The problem is, he/she can keep fishing and keep slitting fish if he is not keeping any. Where do you draw the line?
Well the regs say you can't have more than 1kg roe on you without a dressed fish or receipt right? Seems to me that there is already a line drawn...
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i smoked my chrome chum doe on monday and it was great. dont know why people would waste them.
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Well the regs say you can't have more than 1kg roe on you without a dressed fish or receipt right? Seems to me that there is already a line drawn...
If I take that logic, kept my 4 hatchery females, then go ahead and kept fishing till I have exactly 1 more kg of roe? or keep slitting fish till I am just under 1kg of roe, then start keeping my limit of fish...
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Roe is a crutch.
Bait ban IMO.
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Agreed. Lots of ways to catch without using roe.
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Roe is a crutch.
Bait ban IMO.
Why a bait ban? Fisherman have been using bait since the sport began. Are you one of these holier then thou Fly guys?
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Bait bans don't work on hatchery systems. Reason being the hatchery fish are there to be killed so any legal form of fishing will always be allowed. Another thing a bait ban on a hatchery system will just create more flossing/snagging to occur. Sure bait could be considered a crutch if you want to look at it that way. I think every form of angling has a time and place and a good angler can use any form to entice fish to bite.
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Bait bans don't work on hatchery systems. Reason being the hatchery fish are there to be killed so any legal form of fishing will always be allowed. Another thing a bait ban on a hatchery system will just create more flossing/snagging to occur. Sure bait could be considered a crutch if you want to look at it that way. I think every form of angling has a time and place and a good angler can use any form to entice fish to bite.
Can't agree more. Bait is just another tool in our tool box, it's just how you choose to use it, that makes the difference. I personally don't like the mess that bait causes. It seem more trouble than it's worth. I think trying to get rid of lead weights is much more important.
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Well the regs say you can't have more than 1kg roe on you without a dressed fish or receipt right? Seems to me that there is already a line drawn...
You're not giving out the right information regarding regulations, again. Don't give out misinformation unless you are sure.
You are permitted to possess up to 1kg of roe for bait, UNLESS if you have in your possession the freshly dressed fish from which the roe in excess of 1kg was taken, or a receipt that proves the roe was obtained from a commercial source.
If I take that logic, kept my 4 hatchery females, then go ahead and kept fishing till I have exactly 1 more kg of roe? or keep slitting fish till I am just under 1kg of roe, then start keeping my limit of fish...
This doesn't really make any sense but probably because it was derived from the misinformation given. See above.
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You're not giving out the right information regarding regulations, again. Don't give out misinformation unless you are sure.
You are permitted to possess up to 1kg of roe for bait, UNLESS if you have in your possession the freshly dressed fish from which the roe in excess of 1kg was taken, or a receipt that proves the roe was obtained from a commercial source.
I thought that was exactly what I said in not so many words? I was explaining it from the perspective of someone who knows the regs, not trying to explain regs to someone who doesn't know. Please point out where I was misinforming people so I dont do it again.
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I thought that was exactly what I said in not so many words? I was explaining it from the perspective of someone who knows the regs, not trying to explain regs to someone who doesn't know. Please point out where I was misinforming people so I dont do it again.
I was going to say the same thing, it sounded like Rod was just repeating what you said. It seems to me that saying you can posess up to 1kg "unless" you have a freshly dressed fish from which the roe in excess of a kilo was taken or you have a receipt from a commercial vendor is the same as saying you cannot posess more than a kilo "without" said freshly dressed fish or receipt.
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Bottom line is there is no enforcement and criminals will always do illegal things when they feel nobody is around. I too am also disgusted with that native opening which ruined many a weekends on the harrison this fall. I've been pushed off the bar i was anchored on and told to move so they can literally seine the bar void of fish. They throw fish around on the rocks and throw the males back. The Fraser fishery is disgusting these days. OH and ppl wondering why there are no steelhead in the Thompson??? How the hell do they get through all these nets?
Start giving out heavier fines, have more enforcement and get the nets out of the water.
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If I take that logic, kept my 4 hatchery females, then go ahead and kept fishing till I have exactly 1 more kg of roe? or keep slitting fish till I am just under 1kg of roe, then start keeping my limit of fish...
No, you cannot, (not lawfully) since you cannot kill more than your limit whether you take them home or not, and it is unlawful to waste fish you catch, whether tossing in the trash or back into the river.
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I thought that was exactly what I said in not so many words? I was explaining it from the perspective of someone who knows the regs, not trying to explain regs to someone who doesn't know. Please point out where I was misinforming people so I dont do it again.
You're right, sorry. I stand corrected.
The response to yours completely threw me off, it still doesn't make sense what Charles was explaining.
With that said, I still think it's important not to simply the information when it comes to regulations. By not saying you can possess up to 1kg of roe for bait, it's telling people that they can go out and slit open fish that are already dead for roe as long as they only take less than 1kg (which I am still not sure if it is legal or not, but attempting to find out from my contacts).
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Regarding the two photos I posted originally in this thread, I had some further discussions with my colleagues and determined a few more things.
Everyone's confident that the first fish was a male due to the distinct kype. This leads to the question, why would someone slit open a hatchery male coho salmon and left it on the bank? One illegal scenario is that, the angler caught and retained the fish, even though it was already a bit coloured, but encountered more hatchery-marked fish later on which were much fresher than this fish. He or she then decided to kill above his or her quota for the day, and abandoned this fish so when carrying the rest of the fish out to the car, it would be seen legal. It's high grading, which is a clear violation.
Another very possible scenario is that the fish was simply lost and washed away after it was cleaned. It has happened to me several times.
The second fish was clearly a violation if it was killed by an angler as it was a wild coho salmon. He or she may have been told off after it was killed, perhaps the angler did not know better, which is not unusual but unacceptable if new to fishing. He or she then decided to leave the fish behind so the officer would not issue a fine if checked.
For both cases, I guess the silver lining is that the carcasses remain in the watershed, which will fertilize it and support the offsprings next year.
While it was likely, I don't buy that someone cut open these fish after they had naturally died prior to spawning because of their condition. It's possible, but there were a few hundred other dead chum salmon around these, some looked like they did not spawn (but probably did), yet none of their abdomen were cut open. With that said, as I pointed out in the previous post, I am interested to find out whether slitting open carcasses on the river bank for roe is a legal practice. I shall have an answer within a few days.
I posted these photographs not with the intention to accuse anyone or user group, but to discuss possible scenarios,stimulate a topic which is rarely discussed yet quite important, and clear up some confusion. I'm glad to see three pages of opinions so far.
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You're right, sorry. I stand corrected.
The response to yours completely threw me off, it still doesn't make sense what Charles was explaining.
With that said, I still think it's important not to simply the information when it comes to regulations. By not saying you can possess up to 1kg of roe for bait, it's telling people that they can go out and slit open fish that are already dead for roe as long as they only take less than 1kg (which I am still not sure if it is legal or not, but attempting to find out from my contacts).
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I believe that when the amount of roe is less than a kg, the burden of proof (that it is not to be used for bait while fishing, ie: was acquired illegally) lies with the officer, whereas when the amount exceeds a kilo, the burden of proof lies with the angler (hence the need to show the freshly dressed fish from which you had acquired such a large amount of fresh roe or the receipt showing you had actual bought it and have not been slitting open fish and tossing them back). In other words, if you really want to bring over a kilo of roe with you to use as bait, you can only bring commercially bought roe and have the receipt with you. If you make your own roe you cannot bring more than a kilo. While you could "get away" with slicing a fish and taking less than a kilo of roe and tossing it back and keep fishing, it would not be legal and you would be charged if observed doing it. The same would apply with harvesting from a carcass. Since you need the freshly dressed fish in your possession to possesses more than a kilo of roe, and since any fish "not suitable for eating" must be returned "quickly and gently" to the water, you would not be able to harvest more than a kilo from a carcass, and since it is unlawful to release fish in a "harmful manner" and since slicing open a fish and removing its roe could be considered harming it ( even if it were dead already), you would not be able to lawfully harvest less than a kilo either. Like other regulations that are design to avoid abuse, it keeps someone from tailing that half dead zombie, slicing it open for the roe, then saying it was dead before they harvested the roe. If you are going to harvest roe from a fish on the river, you must keep that fish in your possession. Of course this is my interpretation and unfortunately (or fortunately for some) I have not passed the bar in BC and will not be presiding over any cases in court.
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I believe that when the amount of roe is less than a kg, the burden of proof (that it is not to be used for bait while fishing, ie: for later use or sale) lies with the officer, whereas when the amount exceeds a kilo, the burden of proof lies with the angler (hence the need to show the freshly dressed fish you had acquired such a large amount of fresh roe or the receipt showing you had actual bought it and have not been slitting open fish and tossing them back). In other words, if you really want to bring over a kilo of roe with you to use as bait, you can only bring commercially bought roe and have the receipt with you. If you make your own roe cannot bring more than a kilo. While you could get away with slicing a fish and taking less than a kilo of roe and tossing it back and keep fishing, it would not be legal and you would be charged if observed doing it.
I'm talking about slitting carcasses on the river bank, not fish that you have killed and decide to toss back. Other than that, I agree.
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I believe that would be considered wasting fish.
u Waste the fish you catch.
If your fish is not suitable for eating or if
possession is illegal because of quotas,
size limits or closed seasons, return the
fish quickly and gently to the water
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First pic is hooked but indeed a doe Rodney, females get a hooked Kype aswell just not as pronounced, look where the jaw ends it doesn't pass the eye.
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Should have checked for milt sacks lol, I too think that both fish are females.
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I'm talking about slitting carcasses on the river bank, not fish that you have killed and decide to toss back. Other than that, I agree.
Yes, I know you were, I was just covering both scenarios in my post. You could also apply, as has been debated in another thread in the past, the rules governing the "taking" of salmon by legal "angling" only. While someone flossing a salmon might argue that it was taken legally by angling, you would be hard pressed to convince the authorities that you took the carcass by angling (the regulations make no distinction between live fish and dead ones). Even if one were to argue that they took the fish by angling (hooked the carcass in the mouth with a hook attached to a line), the taking of the roe and the discarding of the carcass, again, could be subject to the aforementioned regulation of "wasting" your catch as well as subject to the fines for "molesting" a fish as covered in section 4 of the Act.
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There both females.
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you would be hard pressed to convince the authorities that you took the carcass by angling (the regulations make no distinction between live fish and dead ones). Even if one were to argue that they took the fish by angling (hooked the carcass in the mouth with a hook attached to a line), the taking of the roe and the discarding of the carcass, again, could be subject to the aforementioned regulation of "wasting" your catch as well as subject to the fines for "molesting" a fish as covered in section 4 of the Act.
Sandman you make the mistake of assuming your interpretation of the act is correct forgetting it's the interpretation of a) the enforcement officer and b) the judge most importantly. Taking all or parts of a dead fish is not excluded by the act and we know it's done frequently by sturgeon anglers.
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Is this regulation only in regards to fresh uncured roe? Let's say I wanted to go up for a week camping on the river, intending to fish for roe, so pack up a couple cartons of cured roe so that I have plenty but have well over a kg. Is that legal or is that still against the regs? Fresh roe I could understand but not cured.
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Killing rhinos for their horns, elephants for their tusks, leopards for their furs, sharks for their fins, fish for their roe...Nothing new. It's been done since the dawn of mankind.
When the last salmon dies, then it will stop. Human greed knows no boundaries.
well said and nice timing as the black rhino went officially extinct 3 days ago. finally no more black rhino poaching :-[
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well said and nice timing as the black rhino went officially extinct 3 days ago. finally no more black rhino poaching :-[
You are referring to the western black rhino, which has not been seen since 2001 and was declared extinct 2 years ago. The report was republished last week (hence the confusion)
The black rhino (there is 3 other sub species of black rhino, western black rhino was the 4th) as a whole still exists in east and southern areas of Africa.
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Is this regulation only in regards to fresh uncured roe? Let's say I wanted to go up for a week camping on the river, intending to fish for roe, so pack up a couple cartons of cured roe so that I have plenty but have well over a kg. Is that legal or is that still against the regs? Fresh roe I could understand but not cured.
I don't think the regs specify anything about cured or not. Your safest option would be to buy any roe over 1kg you need, and keep your receipt.
I wonder about bringing lots of roe but just leave most at your campsite so you are never in possession of too much while actually fishing? But I think that might still be asking for trouble...
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I don't think the regs specify anything about cured or not. Your safest option would be to buy any roe over 1kg you need, and keep your receipt.
I wonder about bringing lots of roe but just leave most at your campsite so you are never in possession of too much while actually fishing? But I think that might still be asking for trouble...
If that is a case that is a pretty dumb rule. It isn't like you can cure roe that quick.
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I wonder about bringing lots of roe but just leave most at your campsite so you are never in possession of too much while actually fishing? But I think that might still be asking for trouble...
"you must not have more than 1 kg of roe (fish eggs) in your possession for use as bait unless the roe was obtained from a commercial source that lawfully obtained that roe, or you have in your possession the freshly dressed fish from which the roe in excess of 1 kg was taken. Carry a receipt with you if you purchased roe from a commercial source."
Yeah, i assume campsite would still be considered in your possession. Just as your possession limit refers to in your possession, not at your ordinary residence. I would assume it would be the same deal, whereas at your campsite you can only have one possession limit(1kg).
However, I think most DFO officers would understand if you have cured roe, using it as bait.
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No, you cannot, (not lawfully) since you cannot kill more than your limit whether you take them home or not, and it is unlawful to waste fish you catch, whether tossing in the trash or back into the river.
I was being sarcastic. I thought it was clear that i was against it.
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"you must not have more than 1 kg of roe (fish eggs) in your possession for use as bait unless the roe was obtained from a commercial source that lawfully obtained that roe, or you have in your possession the freshly dressed fish from which the roe in excess of 1 kg was taken. Carry a receipt with you if you purchased roe from a commercial source."
Now if a person had roe in their possession to consume themselves then the regulation in regards to the 1kg would not apply to them as they are not using it as bait. Good thing that the people who write the regs actually think every scenario through.
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Now if a person had roe in their possession to consume themselves then the regulation in regards to the 1kg would not apply to them as they are not using it as bait. Good thing that the people who write the regs actually think every scenario through.
What if you are using the smell of it to help clear your sinuses?
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If that is a case that is a pretty dumb rule. It isn't like you can cure roe that quick.
Don't most cures take under a day? Seems if its that important you could cure it at your campsite? Or just fish fresh roe if you catch a keepable doe?
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Sandman you make the mistake of assuming your interpretation of the act is correct forgetting it's the interpretation of a) the enforcement officer and b) the judge most importantly. Taking all or parts of a dead fish is not excluded by the act and we know it's done frequently by sturgeon anglers.
No, mistake at all, as I specifically stated that what I was posting was my interpretation and that I am neither a lawyer nor a judge (for whom the final interpretation rests).
Of course this is my interpretation and unfortunately (or fortunately for some) I have not passed the bar in BC and will not be presiding over any cases in court.
I also know that many sturgeon anglers grab floaters to use as bait, but I also know of a few that have been told by COs that it was illegal (at least that was what they told me the CO had told them). They were seen by the CO scooping up a floater with their net, and came over and told them to put it back. Since the regulations do not distinguish between a live fish or a dead fish, they we're taking a fish with a net, which is not allow under the act. I know of no one that has been charge with this offence, so I do not know if the courts have established this as precidence or not (which I would expect would be needed to clarify the section of the Act).
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So the problem was they were taking it with a net? What if they just reached in with their hands?
Seems very unclear and very CO specific on what they find could be wrong.
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In any case that goes before the courts one lawyer is right and one is wrong. I've never heard of a judge declaring it a draw and giving each lawyer a gold star. ;D
A CO or other enforcement officer can say what they like. If ticketed the angler can pay the fine or challenge it as they like. The courts have ruled against tickets issued before and no doubt will do again. Are dead fish protected by the act? Is a dead fish 'a catch'? If someone happens upon a dead female fresh enough to have good roe is that an offense under any act or a windfall? Personally I don't see what harm there is if someone takes the roe from a doe carcass.
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So the problem was they were taking it with a net? What if they just reached in with their hands?
Seems very unclear and very CO specific on what they find could be wrong.
Hands would be illegal too. Only legal way to catch a salmon is with a hook in the mouth.
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During this years pink run, on the south side about a mile upstream of the crossing I came across some backwater that had at least a dozen does gutted and floating in the water.
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In any case that goes before the courts one lawyer is right and one is wrong. I've never heard of a judge declaring it a draw and giving each lawyer a gold star. ;D
A CO or other enforcement officer can say what they like. If ticketed the angler can pay the fine or challenge it as they like. The courts have ruled against tickets issued before and no doubt will do again. Are dead fish protected by the act? Is a dead fish 'a catch'? If someone happens upon a dead female fresh enough to have good roe is that an offense under any act or a windfall? Personally I don't see what harm there is if someone takes the roe from a doe carcass.
Again, that was what I was saying. Until a case goes to court and a judge makes a ruling one way or another (and I do not know if it ever has gone there), it is unclear. I also do not think there is any "harm" taking roe from a dead fish, but as I said, I would not want to see someone tailing a half dead fish to scoop the roe and claiming it was dead already or it was going to die anyway so it is ok. By leaving it that the only way to "take" a fish, dead or alive, is by "angling" (a hook and line with the hook in the mouth) it makes it clear that we are, first and foremost, fishing for sport, not harvesting for roe. Roe harvesting (taking fish for roe) is a commercial enterprise not a sport so is not covered under regulations for recreational angling.
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You change the topic to suit your point. It's not about harvesting fish or catching fish. its about what if anything a person can do with a fish carcass they happen to find on a stream bank.
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You change the topic to suit your point. It's not about harvesting fish or catching fish. its about what if anything a person can do with a fish carcass they happen to find on a stream bank.
Well, not exactly. It is not like we are talking about whether they can just step on it or poke it with a stick now are we? Or whether they can grab a bunch of carcasses and take them home for fertilizer.... Oh wait...are you saying they can do that? Or can they just take the roe because they are just taking part of the carcass? But wait, I forgot I am changing the topic again.
Oh, I see. If I disagree with you and provide my reasoning why someone might not be allowed to take the roe from a fish carcass, then I am guilty of changing the topic. Ok, you win Ralph, they can take the roe, and they can net floaters for their roe and bellies too. We will remember it was you who gave the ok.
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it wasn't me who stated roe harvesting is a 'commercial enterprise' only (without any substantiation)or expressed concerns about taking roe from a half dead fish. Mushroom picking can be a commercial enterprise but I don't need a license if I want to do it. While a half dead fish isn't going to spawn anymore taking roe from it is almost certainly illegal. No one needs my or your permission to do anything. They can do as they wish and their conscience allows and if they contravene the fisheries act or whatever they can take the consequences. This is nothing new it's not like it has just started happening. I have been fishing around the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland for around 50 years and it goes back at least that far. Acting shocked about it phony indignation. If it's becoming such a problem, ban fishing with roe. Ban fishing with any fish or fish parts. Very simple. There are lot's of other good baits. Personally I don't fish with roe very often and wouldn't miss it.
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When is the fish considered half dead? If you think about it everything starts to die the second it is born...
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Wow Johnny you are so deep!
Ok let's set the definition of half dead to: lying on it's side, gils barely moving and all covered with fungus. Sound yummy?
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Wow Johnny you are so deep!
Ok let's set the definition of half dead to: lying on it's side, gils barely moving and all covered with fungus. Sound yummy?
So deep? As in thought? Or as in so low?
Think about it though, the body "starts" to die the moment it's born. When the body is young it's producing new cells much faster than the old ones are dying off. For example people shower everyday (I hope) why? To wash away dead skin which causes odors, your skin is dying all the time as are your blood cells.
I have never noticed the gills of the fish moving, just the gill plates...
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actually dead skin doesn't cause body odor that's caused by urea.
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it wasn't me who stated roe harvesting is a 'commercial enterprise' only (without any substantiation)or expressed concerns about taking roe from a half dead fish. Mushroom picking can be a commercial enterprise but I don't need a license if I want to do it.
That is because there is no "Fungus Act" (not yet anyway). There is, however, a Fisheries Act and since roe is a part of a fish, it is covered under the Act (the Act defines a "fish" as "the whole or any part of an aquatic animal").
While a half dead fish isn't going to spawn anymore taking roe from it is almost certainly illegal.
Good, we agree then. Therefore, the question is what happens once it dies, does it remain protected under the Fisheries Act or not? If you believe it ceases to be covered under the act and I can do what I want with it (like take its roe), then you must also believe that I can take the whole fish (I mean if it is no longer protected under the Act, why not?). If I can take one fish carcass, then I must be able to take a dozen (I mean there are no quotas for dead carcasses right?). I can load up my bag with a dozen carcasses and haul them off home, and if I am stopped by a fisheries officer, then I just tell him they were dead when I found them right? Do we see any problem with this? At very least there would need to be a definition of what constituted a dead carcass (ie: visible fungal growth), so that someone could not claim they were over the possession limit because they were dead already when they found them. However, there is no such definition currently in the Act, and there is no distinction at all between live fish and dead fish in the Act, so a dead carcass is still covered under the Act and, therefore, you cannot harvest it, or the roe.
No one needs my or your permission to do anything. They can do as they wish and their conscience allows and if they contravene the fisheries act or whatever they can take the consequences.
True, but the debate over the legality of the action (taking roe from a dead salmon) might help someone make the right decision and avoid a fine or at least an awkward encounter with a sympathetic fisheries officer.
This is nothing new it's not like it has just started happening. I have been fishing around the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland for around 50 years and it goes back at least that far. Acting shocked about it phony indignation.
I am not sure where you got "shocked" from or "phony [or even genuine] indignation" from, as I am neither shocked nor indignant about people taking roe from dead salmon. I am simply interested in the legality of it, and the implications, if it is legal, of people exploiting such a loophole. I also do not think the "it has been going on for years" is really a strong argument for it being legal or acceptable. Poaching has been going on for at least 50 years too.
If it's becoming such a problem, ban fishing with roe. Ban fishing with any fish or fish parts. Very simple. There are lot's of other good baits. Personally I don't fish with roe very often and wouldn't miss it.
While I too would not miss it (I never use roe), a ban would be overkill to address this particular "problem" which I believe is already covered by the existing Fisheries Act. It is my contention that you can, under the Fisheries Act, only take "fish" (living or dead) by angling (with the hook in its mouth), and you can only take roe from fish you have taken legally. Therefore, taking roe from a carcass is not legal (although I am not going to lose much sleep over it if I see you doing it). While you may disagree with me Ralph, and we have disagreed on many topics over the years, please provide your reasons for the disagreement, and do not accuse me of changing the topic to suit my arguments. That was a Red Herring at best.
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actually dead skin doesn't cause body odor that's caused by urea.
:o Nitrogen in the urine causes body odor? :o
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/urea (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/urea)
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:o Nitrogen in the urine causes body odor? :o
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/urea (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/urea)
Keep reading Johnny:
urea noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
"One of the simplest organic compounds and the first synthesized from inorganic raw materials (see inorganic compound), by Friedrich Wöhler (1800–82) in 1828. It is the diamide of carbonic acid (HNCONH; see amide; carbon dioxide). The chief nitrogenous end product of protein breakdown in mammals and some fishes, it occurs not only in urine but also in blood, bile, milk, and perspiration. It is one of the industrial chemicals produced in vast amounts. With its high nitrogen content and low price, it is a major agricultural fertilizer and animal-feed ingredient. It is also used to make urea-formaldehyde plastics (including foamed plastics; see polyurethanes), to synthesize barbiturates, as a stabilizer in explosives, and in adhesives, hydrocarbon processing, and flameproofing.
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Protein break down would be dead skin rotting would it not?
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Protein break down would be dead skin rotting would it not?
Yes, but not in the same sense. Dead cells breaking down is a totally different concept from the body breaking down proteins.
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Hey Sandman, the discussion has moved to something far more important! ;D
with all due respect to your cogent arguments (which I don't agree with on some points), the whole post was a red herring.
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Hey Sandman, the discussion has moved to something far more important! ;D
True that. ;)
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Hey Sandman, the discussion has moved to something far more important! ;D
with all due respect to your cogent arguments (which I don't agree with on some points), the whole post was a red herring.
Hey let's veer this thread even further off course!
I find religious people only us the term "red herring"
/discuss