Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: alwaysfishn on April 27, 2013, 08:08:45 AM
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/04/26/nb-cooke-aquaculture-lobster-pesticide.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/04/26/nb-cooke-aquaculture-lobster-pesticide.html)
Begs the question as to what the feedlots are doing and not getting caught..... ???
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Thanks AF- The feedlot choir poo pooed me when I gave an accurate account of the devastation the"farms" had on the lobster fishery in my native Nova Scotia. (Saddle Island) But then again, these guys quote salmon farm science and all the other tripe as biblical truth.Are they that gullible or are they "economical" with facts?
Here's a little read about the honesty and upfront folks at the farm. Be sure to reasd between the lines about government "support". Retch. Reread.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/112300-cooke-aquaculture-slow-to-report-barge-sinking
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This is why Morton should be fighting to get Atlantic feedlots out of Washington and the feedlots out of Alaska. Does she not care about her home country wild salmon and sea life?
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Begs the question as to what the feedlots are doing and not getting caught..... ???
Maybe with a little help from their friends ? The fines are peanuts.
www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2013/04/26/nb-aquaculture-olscamp-resignation-robichaud.html
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This is why Morton should be fighting to get Atlantic feedlots out of Washington and the feedlots out of Alaska. Does she not care about her home country wild salmon and sea life?
And that has what to do with Nova Scotia? Sweet Fanny Adams.Last time I checked, the USA was independent of Canada. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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And that has what to do with Nova Scotia? Sweet Fanny Adams.Last time I checked, the USA was independent of Canada. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I really do feel for the Nova Scotia fishing families Novabonker. But where on the world has there been a sustainable wild fishery? Sustainability to me means an industry that is able to grow with the worlds growing population demand. It looks to me like we will not be losing aquaculture as a wild fishery supplement and enhancer any time soon.
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Define "sustainable". How much other fish is used over the life cycle of a farmed salmon- in other words, how much protein to produce how much protein? You end up in negative territory.
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Define "sustainable". How much other fish is used over the life cycle of a farmed salmon- in other words, how much protein to produce how much protein? You end up in negative territory.
You tell me what wild fishery is sustainable and how much protein you can depend to rain on it each year first. No differnt than taking from the land sorry to say.
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Are you a politician? All fisheries are sustainable if properly managed. To get back to the question about protein, it's between 3 to 5 kilos of protein to produce 1 kilo of farmed fish. Would you like some more facts on the feed being used? It's not pretty.
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Are you a politician? All fisheries are sustainable if properly managed.
This is not true. If a fish stock is in a period of low productivity (< or =1 R/S), then the fishery is not sustainable (i.e. it will slowly but surely progress towards extirpation). Only appropriate management of the fishery is to close it (see east coast cod)
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This is not true. If a fish stock is in a period of low productivity (< or =1 R/S), then the fishery is not sustainable (i.e. it will slowly but surely progress towards extirpation). Only appropriate management of the fishery is to close it (see east coast cod)
Um, the east coast cod debacle is probably why I live in BC now. IF it had been properly managed, I would probably still be in the east , doing what my family did since the 1700's when we first landed here. I notice nobody wants to address the fact about the amount of protein required to raise an Atlantic. Must all be politicians, ;)
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It all depends who you choose to listen to for feed rates.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_conversion_ratio
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Um, the east coast cod debacle is probably why I live in BC now. IF it had been properly managed, I would probably still be in the east , doing what my family did since the 1700's when we first landed here. I notice nobody wants to address the fact about the amount of protein required to raise an Atlantic. Must all be politicians, ;)
True, the cod fishery was mismanaged horribly at higher productivities. Unfortunately it struggled to rebuild even in the absence of fishing. Many wild pacific salmon stocks cannot be sustainably harvested in directed fisheries anymore.
There are fish foods that can achieve a feed conversion ratio better than 1:1.
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There are fish foods that can achieve a feed conversion ratio better than 1:1.
I like how you say that with a straight face...... If the industry was honest about it they would tell us how many pounds of "live fish" it takes to produce a pound of "live" atlantic. The ratio is probably closer to 10:1
Taking the weight of the fish oil and dried compressed fish meal it takes to put a pound of atlantic filet on a grocery shelf is not an honest comparison....
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Wow. Just imagine how much fish meal Alaska would be using to farm 1.7 billion salmon a year. Then add what the atlantic feed lots use in Washington and the chicken and pig farmers. Then there is the pet food industry.
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Don't forget China, Russia, Japan and every other country that ranches salmon. Oh yeah, add in every trout and salmon hatchery in North America, and, most likely, the world.
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I love it...Anti's gettin it handed to them.
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I like how you say that with a straight face...... If the industry was honest about it they would tell us how many pounds of "live fish" it takes to produce a pound of "live" atlantic. The ratio is probably closer to 10:1
Taking the weight of the fish oil and dried compressed fish meal it takes to put a pound of atlantic filet on a grocery shelf is not an honest comparison....
Here you go bankboy. Maybe you should be focusing on the shrimp aquaculture industry instead?
http://www.feedconferences.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Obach.pdf
Don't believe them? Of course you don't, this is generally your cue to either deflect or to just irrationally claim that all the experts are lying. Maybe some first hand investigation would help?
I'm sure there's a salmon or trout hatchery somewhere near your RBC branch. Check out
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sep-pmvs/hatcheries-ecloseries-eng.htm
or http://www.gofishbc.com/about-us/what-we-do/fish-hatcheries.aspx .
Find one nearby and head on down to educate yourself (you don't work on Mondays, right?). Talk to some of the people feeding fish on a daily basis, ask them about what it takes to grow a fish.
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Um, the east coast cod debacle is probably why I live in BC now. IF it had been properly managed, I would probably still be in the east , doing what my family did since the 1700's when we first landed here. I notice nobody wants to address the fact about the amount of protein required to raise an Atlantic. Must all be politicians, ;)
As I remember, there were many voices pointing out the unsustainability of the cod harvest even if the politicians, particularly John Crosby, insisted that it could safely go ahead. All those fishermen and processors chose to continue harvesting in spite of those voices so it's a bit disingenuous to blame it all on the DFO now that the golden goose has been killed.
The amount of protein required to feed farm fish has been addressed many times both in terms of the quantity and the source. It's your choice to ignore it so again, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that no-one is addressing the issue.
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As I remember, there were many voices pointing out the unsustainability of the cod harvest even if the politicians, particularly John Crosby, insisted that it could safely go ahead. All those fishermen and processors chose to continue harvesting in spite of those voices so it's a bit disingenuous to blame it all on the DFO now that the golden goose has been killed.
You'd think that we would have learned from that and applied that experience to the west coast feedlot business. In spite of the many voices pointing out that the feedlots are killing our wild salmon, industry and government insist that planting feedlots in wild salmon habitat can safely go ahead...
Go figure! >:(
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The obvious lesson would be that you can't continue the overharvest of wild fish by the sport, commercial and native sectors in the face of declining environmental conditions and expect the stocks to survive. The east coast experience is a clear and unambiguous demonstration of the consequences and it is truly unfortunate that so many choose to ignore it in favour of speculative associations with salmon farms.
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My understanding is that our government works hard at managing the harvest of the wild stocks. Are you suggesting that the same good folks that are "supposedly" doing a great job of managing the feedlot industry are allowing overfishing, perhaps even managing the wild fisheries to extinction? Or is it just that your perspective is purely from the feedlot industries point of view?
I'm not sure if you have ever fished a day in your life..... Most of us sports fishermen are not quite willing to pack away our fishing rods while allowing and then watching foreign companies kill off our wild salmon with their feedlots.
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Most of us sports fishermen are not quite willing to pack away our fishing rods while allowing and then watching foreign companies kill off our wild salmon with their feedlots.
Name one stock of wild salmon being harmed by salmon farms. You can't, you know it, but still you trot it out on a daily basis.
Early run Fraser chinook, on the other hand, are being fished to near extinction by FN as we speak. Laying blame on whomever is at fault isn't helping these stocks as it's pretty much too late, much like the east coast cod debacle.
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.....Most of us sports fishermen are not quite willing to pack away our fishing rods........
That would be the kernel of truth in the flowing river of manure.
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Most of us sports fishermen are not quite willing to pack away our fishing rods while allowing and then watching foreign companies kill off our wild salmon with their feedlots.
That would be the kernel of truth in the flowing river of manure.
Isn't that what the feedlots are waiting for? They're thinking that they if they can eliminate a major competitor, they can also open up a whole new market for feedlot fish....
It would be interesting to hear how many sports fishermen would actually buy and eat that stuff....
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Most of us sports fishermen are not quite willing to pack away our fishing rods
the kernel
while allowing and then watching foreign companies kill off our wild salmon with their feedlots.
the river
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It would be interesting to hear how many sports fishermen would actually buy and eat that stuff....
I've eaten it... it's not bad at all.
I wouldn't buy it, because it is expensive, and I have more than enough from catching fish, but I'd still eat it no problem.
The funniest thing is if I put steelhead and Atlantic on a plate side by side cooked you probably couldn't tell the difference.
Dave is right.
WE are destroying our wild stocks - not the farms. Just like WE destroyed the cod fishery and Atlantic fishery on the east coast by over-fishing them.
That is why we NEED salmon farms and sustainable aquaculture, because if we don't have it we will completely destroy our wild stocks of fish and fish them to extinction.
I like how you say that with a straight face...... If the industry was honest about it they would tell us how many pounds of "live fish" it takes to produce a pound of "live" atlantic. The ratio is probably closer to 10:1
I just needed to comment on this too...
First of all, there is a set number of "food fish" that can be harvested every year for fish meal. This number doesn't change unless population calls for it. Th funniest part about what you said is that if you own a pet you are contributing to the destruction of "live feed" more than fish farms do as only about 10% of fish harvested actually go to fish meal. The other 90% go to pet food, etc.
They use chicken bone, plant protein and other proteins to fill in for fish meal in most cases. There are endless possibilities and it doesn't always need to involve fish. As for the last thing you said.... it's just very ill advised, and you should probably learn a little bit about conversion ratio's before commenting. In many cases a manager will be fired if he is much over a 1:1 conversion ratio. Most of them, as dnibbles said, are actually getting better than a 1:1 ratio.
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That is why we NEED salmon farms and sustainable aquaculture, because if we don't have it we will completely destroy our wild stocks of fish and fish them to extinction.
Are you suggesting DFO is not doing a good job at regulating catches of wild stock? Why would that be? Is it because they see wild fish as a problem that is costing the government and the feedlot industry market share?
I just needed to comment on this too...
First of all, there is a set number of "food fish" that can be harvested every year for fish meal. This number doesn't change unless population calls for it. Th funniest part about what you said is that if you own a pet you are contributing to the destruction of "live feed" more than fish farms do as only about 10% of fish harvested actually go to fish meal. The other 90% go to pet food, etc.
They use chicken bone, plant protein and other proteins to fill in for fish meal in most cases. There are endless possibilities and it doesn't always need to involve fish. As for the last thing you said.... it's just very ill advised, and you should probably learn a little bit about conversion ratio's before commenting. In many cases a manager will be fired if he is much over a 1:1 conversion ratio. Most of them, as dnibbles said, are actually getting better than a 1:1 ratio.
I appreciate that you like all pro feedlot posters would like to deflect the question of the unsustainability of growing feedlot fish when you need to catch wild fish to grow them. The post you were referencing was regarding feedlot salmon not pets. (but for your info I don't own any pets) Most people are aware that much of the fish meal comes from areas of the world where regulations are not enforced, so suggesting that only a set number of wild fish are caught for fish meal is just not true. Perhaps you would do better in "educating" us if you answered the question on conversion ratios rather than just repeating what previous feedlot proponents have said.
If the industry was honest about it they would tell us how many pounds of "live fish" it takes to produce a pound of "live" atlantic.
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Go back a few posts af - food conversion issues have been addressed many times here and on other forums you and I and most others who care about aquaculture frequent, but as absolon and nibs said earlier, you simply refuse to listen, or perhaps comprehend.
C'mon, give us something new as debating you is becoming boring ;)
I'll let ED off the hook here and say yes, the senior managers of DFO based in Ottawa are doing a poor job of protecting wild salmon stocks but certainly not for your conspiracy theories; I say too many people, FN, sporties, and commercial fishers, are demanding their perceived right to kill salmon; as an example I'm asked almost daily if "we" are going to get a sockeye opening this summer, and just like they did for the east coast cod fishery, the people elected to manage this issue are listening to the people who put them in (and back in) office. It's greed af, pure and simple; we know the problem and it's us.
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Go back a few posts af - food conversion issues have been addressed many times here and on other forums you and I and most others who care about aquaculture frequent, but as absolon and nibs said earlier, you simply refuse to listen, or perhaps comprehend.
Lol..... but you won't answer the question. That 1:1 conversion ratio is becoming stale, can't you guys freshen it up a little with some truth?
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I'll let ED off the hook here and say yes, the senior managers of DFO based in Ottawa are doing a poor job of protecting wild salmon stocks but certainly not for your conspiracy theories; I say too many people, FN, sporties, and commercial fishers, are demanding their perceived right to kill salmon; as an example I'm asked almost daily if "we" are going to get a sockeye opening this summer, and just like they did for the east coast cod fishery, the people elected to manage this issue are listening to the people who put them in (and back in) office. It's greed af, pure and simple; we know the problem and it's us.
Seriously.... DFO has the ability to say no and they are being harassed into saying yes by the different interest groups?
More believable is their primary objective is the promotion of fish farms, wild fish are a hassle for them. Your argument points to the fact that the only winners in this exercise will be the feedlots... DFO is the bad guy. FN, sporties and commercial will need to put their equipment away, while the Norwegian feedlot companies will be smiling all the way to the bank. Sad.
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Are you suggesting DFO is not doing a good job at regulating catches of wild stock? Why would that be? Is it because they see wild fish as a problem that is costing the government and the feedlot industry market share?
NO, that is actually not what I was suggesting.
I was suggesting that they can only do so much, but that people's greed will rule (as Dave just said).
Think of how many people disregard the rules just to get their fish out of Lafarge, etc. Are you honestly so blind to see that people wouldn't do that on salmon/steelhead rivers even if they are closed? We NEED aquaculture to provide relatively inexpensive fish so that people don't simple eliminate what is left of wild stocks. Gov will keep allotting more and more of what is left if they are pressured to do so until nothing is left. It's ALL politics and money, nothing to do with science or sustainability as far as wild salmon are concerned.
I appreciate that you like all pro feedlot posters would like to deflect the question of the unsustainability of growing feedlot fish when you need to catch wild fish to grow them. The post you were referencing was regarding feedlot salmon not pets. (but for your info I don't own any pets) Most people are aware that much of the fish meal comes from areas of the world where regulations are not enforced, so suggesting that only a set number of wild fish are caught for fish meal is just not true. Perhaps you would do better in "educating" us if you answered the question on conversion ratios rather than just repeating what previous feedlot proponents have said.
Did you even read my reply? Are you honestly that caught up in lies that you push everything away. Look at any salmon feed and you will realize that they are going away from fin fish and going almost exclusively to plant proteins, chicken bone proteins, etc.
And as for the conversion ratio's... I told the truth. They told the truth as well, what more do you want us to say? Once again... too lead astray to listen...
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Lol..... but you won't answer the question. That 1:1 conversion ratio is becoming stale, can't you guys freshen it up a little with some truth?
Question was answered for you above with a link (something you haven't been able to provide to back your 10:1 FCR claim).
The crickets come out when af starts his nonsensical rants. I feel for the fellas with well thought out arguments that unfortunately happen to be on the same side of the fence as this guy.
My understanding is that our government works hard at managing the harvest of the wild stocks. Are you suggesting that the same good folks that are "supposedly" doing a great job of managing the feedlot industry are allowing overfishing, perhaps even managing the wild fisheries to extinction?
DFO is the bad guy. FN, sporties and commercial will need to put their equipment away, while the Norwegian feedlot companies will be smiling all the way to the bank.
Which is it? Is DFO the bad guy, or does the govt works hard to manage the fishery well? Tax season is over, you should have some more free time to start researching this stuff now. But I guess that isn't really your style, is it? Kind of like your idol AM's MO of just throwing out inflammatory and alarmist nonsense. Better stick to the script hey? lawlllllllll!!!!
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A simple answer and some support for the question I asked would have been sufficient and would have saved you boys a lot of typing.....
I like how you say that with a straight face...... If the industry was honest about it they would tell us how many pounds of "live fish" it takes to produce a pound of "live" atlantic. The ratio is probably closer to 10:1
Taking the weight of the fish oil and dried compressed fish meal it takes to put a pound of atlantic filet on a grocery shelf is not an honest comparison....
I maintain Salmon feedlot farming is not sustainable because the feedlot industry is taking fish that could otherwise have been eaten by humans and converting it to fish food so they can turn around and sell it at a profit. Any attempt to minimize the fish meal and fish oil in the feed diminishes the taste, texture and nutritional value of a feedlot fish. Feedlots already need to feed their fish, dye just to get the color of the flesh to an acceptable level.
Why don't we all just focus on the discussion and leave the personal insults out of your responses.
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Five minutes of your time with Google and the search function here would vastly increase your understanding of this and all the other subjects you pontificate on. It's your responsibility to at least make an effort to educate yourself, not everybody else's to do the work for you. Bottom line is that your opinion isn't important enough to do any more work than has already been done for you and even that is more than you have earned with your approach to dealing with those who have tried to assist your understanding.
Don't like the insults? Then curtail your own use of them; you will be treated in the same manner you treat others.
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Don't like the insults?
The insults don't bother me..... just that I realized if you boys stopped tossing them and answered a simple question that this thread would be half it's length.
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If you made even a small effort to do some research, the thread wouldn't exist.