Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: alwaysfishn on July 09, 2012, 11:25:46 AM
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Thought I'd help out the pro-feedlot boys by posting up a link to their website petitioning the Canadian Government and CFIA in order to put out a gag order on Morton...... Talk about desperate measures. ???
http://www.change.org/petitions/restrain-alexandra-morton-from-trespass-bio-security-quarantine-measures (http://www.change.org/petitions/restrain-alexandra-morton-from-trespass-bio-security-quarantine-measures)
They've been running it for a couple of months and they are up to 119 signatures. Doesn't appear to be getting a lot of traction..... ;D
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Very considerate af. Make it 120
Also, I'm honoured to see my opinion included with your signature, perhaps there's hope for you afterall ;D
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I must say thnx AF just signed and then shared with all my Facebook buds. Unfortunately only allows 14 at a time but Ill get it out to all 327..... ;D ;D
Once again thnx.
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Very considerate af. Make it 120
Also, I'm honoured to see my opinion included with your signature, perhaps there's hope for you afterall ;D
In spite of what a couple of people think, I'm a pretty considerate guy..... :D Besides you guys need the help!
As far as my signature..... I couldn't have come up with anything as original myself, thanks.
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Apparently the salmon aquaculture industry employs more than 6000 workers in BC, yet this petition only has 119 signatures. With a target of only 250 signatures, at least they have kept their expectation low.... Do these employees not care about the "damage" Morton is doing to their industry, or is it perhaps that they are ignoring the request, because they support Morton in her efforts to try and clean up this industry?
I'm also waiting with bated breath to see how many of Bassonator's "friends" sign up to help the cause..... ;D ;D
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You could get SLAPP(ed) for signing it if Ms Morton decides to show her bad side. Which she rarely does.
Retaliatory lawsuits intended to silence, intimidate, or punish those who have used public forums to speak, petition, or otherwise move for government action on an issue.
The term strategic lawsuits against public participation, known by the acronym SLAPPs, applies to a variety of different types of lawsuits, including those claiming libel, defamation, business interference, or conspiracy. The term was coined by Professors George W. Pring and Penelope Canan of the University of Denver, who began to study this form of litigation in 1984. Pring and Canan define SLAPPs using four criteria: "[SLAPPs] (1) involve communications made to influence a government action or outcome, (2) which result in civil lawsuits (complaints, counterclaims, or cross-claims), (3) filed against non-governmental individuals or groups (4) on a substantive issue of some public interest or social significance."
In a typical SLAPP, an individual or citizens' group—the target (using Pring and Canan's terminology), or defendant—is sued by the filer, or plaintiff, for alleged wrongdoing simply because that individual or group has used constitutionally protected rights to persuade the government to take a particular course of action. SLAPPs have been directed against individuals and groups that have spoken in public forums on a wide variety of issues, particularly against real estate development, the actions of public officials, environmental damage or Pollution, and unwanted land use. They have also been used against those who have worked publicly for the rights of consumers, workers, women, minorities, and others. SLAPP defendants have been sued for apparently lawful actions such as circulating a petition, writing to a local newspaper, speaking at a public meeting, reporting violations of the law, or participating in a peaceful demonstration.
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You could get SLAPP(ed) for signing it if Ms Morton decides to show her bad side. Which she rarely does.
Retaliatory lawsuits intended to silence, intimidate, or punish those who have used public forums to speak, petition, or otherwise move for government action on an issue.
The term strategic lawsuits against public participation, known by the acronym SLAPPs, applies to a variety of different types of lawsuits, including those claiming libel, defamation, business interference, or conspiracy. The term was coined by Professors George W. Pring and Penelope Canan of the University of Denver, who began to study this form of litigation in 1984. Pring and Canan define SLAPPs using four criteria: "[SLAPPs] (1) involve communications made to influence a government action or outcome, (2) which result in civil lawsuits (complaints, counterclaims, or cross-claims), (3) filed against non-governmental individuals or groups (4) on a substantive issue of some public interest or social significance."
In a typical SLAPP, an individual or citizens' group—the target (using Pring and Canan's terminology), or defendant—is sued by the filer, or plaintiff, for alleged wrongdoing simply because that individual or group has used constitutionally protected rights to persuade the government to take a particular course of action. SLAPPs have been directed against individuals and groups that have spoken in public forums on a wide variety of issues, particularly against real estate development, the actions of public officials, environmental damage or Pollution, and unwanted land use. They have also been used against those who have worked publicly for the rights of consumers, workers, women, minorities, and others. SLAPP defendants have been sued for apparently lawful actions such as circulating a petition, writing to a local newspaper, speaking at a public meeting, reporting violations of the law, or participating in a peaceful demonstration.
Ohhhh....Im waitin with baited breath..... :D :D :D :D
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Hey wait a minute didnt Morton get slapped at the Cohen Inquiry...... ;D ;D
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You could get SLAPP(ed) for signing it if Ms Morton decides to show her bad side. Which she rarely does.
Retaliatory lawsuits intended to silence, intimidate, or punish those who have used public forums to speak, petition, or otherwise move for government action on an issue.
The term strategic lawsuits against public participation, known by the acronym SLAPPs, applies to a variety of different types of lawsuits, including those claiming libel, defamation, business interference, or conspiracy. The term was coined by Professors George W. Pring and Penelope Canan of the University of Denver, who began to study this form of litigation in 1984. Pring and Canan define SLAPPs using four criteria: "[SLAPPs] (1) involve communications made to influence a government action or outcome, (2) which result in civil lawsuits (complaints, counterclaims, or cross-claims), (3) filed against non-governmental individuals or groups (4) on a substantive issue of some public interest or social significance."
In a typical SLAPP, an individual or citizens' group—the target (using Pring and Canan's terminology), or defendant—is sued by the filer, or plaintiff, for alleged wrongdoing simply because that individual or group has used constitutionally protected rights to persuade the government to take a particular course of action. SLAPPs have been directed against individuals and groups that have spoken in public forums on a wide variety of issues, particularly against real estate development, the actions of public officials, environmental damage or Pollution, and unwanted land use. They have also been used against those who have worked publicly for the rights of consumers, workers, women, minorities, and others. SLAPP defendants have been sued for apparently lawful actions such as circulating a petition, writing to a local newspaper, speaking at a public meeting, reporting violations of the law, or participating in a peaceful demonstration.
You mean af wasn’t just being a nice guy by supplying that link… he was actually trying to get a few of the boys here busted? ;D
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You mean af wasn’t just being a nice guy by supplying that link… he was actually trying to get a few of the boys here busted? ;D
You boys caught on to me pretty quick...... :o
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Just to be fair, (and of course show how impartial I am) the following link is a petition launched by Alexandra Morton.... http://www.change.org/petitions/costco-safeway-loblaws-we-don-t-want-to-eat-salmon-flu-or-heart-viruses (http://www.change.org/petitions/costco-safeway-loblaws-we-don-t-want-to-eat-salmon-flu-or-heart-viruses)
It appears that both petitions have been running about the same length of time and so far the score is 12,154 to 121.
Bassonator, it looks like your "friends" may be signing Morton's petition..... ;D ;D
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--The Federal government could just hire her to do researche..... game over
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--The Federal government could just hire her to do researche..... game over
I don't see a problem with that.....
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Then we could see the actual lab reports eh! ;D
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Nice to see Alex Morton drawing so much attention!
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Hi Big John, welcome. Looking forward to your thoughts on Ms. Morton and her stand on salmon farming.
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Do these employees not care about the "damage" Morton is doing to their industry
They do it well enough on their own. Just look from Norway to Chile to see what the damage has been done.
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round and round it goes
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round and round it goes
Yep. Feedlot boys try a spin, turns out to be nothing but cow droppings. Again.
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Sorta like what flows from Mortons mouth... ;) ;) ;)
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I was hoping to buoy the pro-feedlot boy's support a little, by posting their link..... but the thread deteriorated pretty quickly.
As Absolon would say...... "All I see is subterfuge and belittling...." "irrelevant hyperbole" :(
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We'd be better off talking about bassonators flys on his avitar. probably just catches the attention of suckers(fish). Kinda like Morton does.
They do it well enough on their own. Just look from Norway to Chile to see what the damage has been done.
Ya, norway and chile had there wild salmon populations exterminated by salmon farms didn't they. I would sure like to read the articles on that.
Can you post those articles for me to read, burbot?
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We'd be better off talking about bassonators flys on his avitar. probably just catches the attention of suckers(fish). Kinda like Morton does.
Ya, norway and chile had there wild salmon populations exterminated by salmon farms didn't they. I would sure like to read the articles on that.
Can you post those articles for me to read, burbot?
Is National Geographic good enough for you?: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080212-salmon-lice.html
Chile had no native salmon but perhaps he was talking about damage to the sea and not wild salmon?
Norway, Ireland, Scotland and Canada have all had problems with salmon farms affecting wild salmon.
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Is National Geographic good enough for you?: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080212-salmon-lice.html
Chile had no native salmon but perhaps he was talking about damage to the sea and not wild salmon?
Norway, Ireland, Scotland and Canada have all had problems with salmon farms affecting wild salmon.
If anyone bothers to read that 4 year old link they will see that for so many reasons already discussed here, it's irrelevant to BC salmon farming and the issues surrounding it.
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4 years old? How old is too old?
Irrelevant?
The new research used official government data from Canada, Scotland, and Ireland to compare the survival of wild salmon and sea trout in regions with salmon farms to adjacent, farm-free areas.
Researchers found a dramatic fall in salmon catches and abundance since the 1980s in areas of the North Atlantic and northeast Pacific where production of farmed salmon has increased over the same period.
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4 years old? How old is too old?
Irrelevant?
The new research used official government data from Canada, Scotland, and Ireland to compare the survival of wild salmon and sea trout in regions with salmon farms to adjacent, farm-free areas.
Researchers found a dramatic fall in salmon catches and abundance since the 1980s in areas of the North Atlantic and northeast Pacific where production of farmed salmon has increased over the same period.
Sorta remainds me of that ole Trooper classic, Round round we go.....
Check the rest of these threads its all been discussed.....
My wife loves these flies... ;) ;) ;) ;)
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4 years old? How old is too old?
Irrelevant?
The new research used official government data from Canada, Scotland, and Ireland to compare the survival of wild salmon and sea trout in regions with salmon farms to adjacent, farm-free areas.
Researchers found a dramatic fall in salmon catches and abundance since the 1980s in areas of the North Atlantic and northeast Pacific where production of farmed salmon has increased over the same period.
How old is too old for a link to be posted? Maybe now, in this case, when it's irrelevant because sea lice are a non issue in BC; irrelevant because Pacific and Atlantic salmon cannot interbreed; irrelevant because the declines to wild salmon mentioned have been happening worldwide for decades, not just near fish farms; irrelevant because disease resistance and immunities between onchorhyncus and salar are unique and not yet fully understood and was not addressed in this report and; irrelevant because numbers of BC sea trout, one of the most impacted species in this study, can probably be counted on 2 hands, all from the Cowichan River.
None of the above is new, all has been said before on this site.
Burbot, do some research on Norway's salmon industry and specifically an introduced parasite named Gyrodactylus salaris.
Chile? Greedy husbandry and worse environmental controls. Phfft
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How old is too old for a link to be posted? Maybe now, in this case, when it's irrelevant because sea lice are a non issue in BC; irrelevant because Pacific and Atlantic salmon cannot interbreed; irrelevant because the declines to wild salmon mentioned have been happening worldwide for decades, not just near fish farms; irrelevant because disease resistance and immunities between onchorhyncus and salar are unique and not yet fully understood and was not addressed in this report and; irrelevant because numbers of BC sea trout, one of the most impacted species in this study, can probably be counted on 2 hands, all from the Cowichan River.
None of the above is new, all has been said before on this site.
Easywater; If someone has given up on wild salmon as Dave has, any argument for saving wild salmon is going to be irrelevant! ::)
The article you posted is relevant, and is not only a reminder of what can happen to our wild salmon, but it should also be the warning bells indicating that we've got to get these pens out of the ocean.
However the relevance of that article is off topic, as this thread is about a petition that was started by the salmon farmers. However it appears that even the farmers believe that saving the wild salmon is more important than supporting their company, as less than 2.5% of them have signed their petition.
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Easywater; If someone has given up on wild salmon as Dave has
Yeah, I've given up all right ;D It will be me and installing periphyton plates tomorrow in the upper Chilliwack River and Foley Creek for the Chilliwack River nutrient enrichment project, a program that enhances wild salmonid populations.
Perhaps af, we can meet Saturday at the CVRCS July 14 cleanup? I'll be the guy with the name tag Dave Barnes on his shirt.
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Yeah, I've given up all right ;D It will be me and installing periphyton plates tomorrow in the upper Chilliwack River and Foley Creek for the Chilliwack River nutrient enrichment project, a program that enhances wild salmonid populations.
Perhaps af, we can meet Saturday at the CVRCS July 14 cleanup? I'll be the guy with the name tag Dave Barnes on his shirt.
Ouch...thats gotta hurt AF.
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Yeah, I've given up all right ;D It will be me and installing periphyton plates tomorrow in the upper Chilliwack River and Foley Creek for the Chilliwack River nutrient enrichment project, a program that enhances wild salmonid populations.
Perhaps af, we can meet Saturday at the CVRCS July 14 cleanup? I'll be the guy with the name tag Dave Barnes on his shirt.
I hope this isn't getting personal Dave. ???
I'm just reading what you are posting and taking it at face value.... After all you are the one that said that "wild salmon will soon be a memory". Your work with the nutrient enrichment program is commendable, but your comments contradict your actions. I on the other hand, don't eat farmed salmon, I want the pens out of the ocean, and I support Morton's efforts. No inconsistency there....
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Ouch...thats gotta hurt AF.
what part? the inconsistency?.....
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what part? the inconsistency?.....
Nope, the fact some one is actually doing something for wild salmon.
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How old is too old for a link to be posted? Maybe now, in this case, when it's irrelevant because sea lice are a non issue in BC; irrelevant because Pacific and Atlantic salmon cannot interbreed; irrelevant because the declines to wild salmon mentioned have been happening worldwide for decades, not just near fish farms; irrelevant because disease resistance and immunities between onchorhyncus and salar are unique and not yet fully understood and was not addressed in this report and; irrelevant because numbers of BC sea trout, one of the most impacted species in this study, can probably be counted on 2 hands, all from the Cowichan River.
None of the above is new, all has been said before on this site.
Burbot, do some research on Norway's salmon industry and specifically an introduced parasite named Gyrodactylus salaris.
Chile? Greedy husbandry and worse environmental controls. Phfft
I would like to add to this....
Irrelevant because Pink salmon populations are increasing in the North Pacific - that includes those here in BC. Irrelevant because the “local extinction” of Pink salmon in the Broughton archipelago in the time frame predicted by the mathematical models created by Krosek et al 2007 proved to be a flop. If we go back 10 years or so we will recall that Pink salmon were the poster child for the anti-salmon farming activists cries that sea lice were bring salmon populations to extinction. Irrelevant because Morton’s own study in 2011 showed that the survival of Pink salmon was not statistically different from a reference area without salmon farms. In addition, the same study showed how the use of a parasiticide and fallowing can reduce louse transmission, but the BC industry has already been doing fallowing since 2004 in the Broughton and SLICE is used in such small quantities to begin with. If anything, industry vets are forced to use SLICE to appease political agendas even when lice levels are below what is considered bad for salmonids. Irrelevant because the regulatory environment that the BC industry is subjected to cannot be compared to a place like Chile. Chilean industry went too big too fast. That is not the case here in BC where fish husbandry is far superior.
I also question the relevance of Ms Ford’s study since the release of these studies recently:
http://www.lapresse.ca/html/1479/saumond.pdf
http://salmonfarmscience.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/sealice_2012_phil-trans-r-soc-b-2012-brauner-1770-9.pdf
It is not a coincidence that anti-fish farm activists do not talk much about sea lice anymore. The flavours of the month or year are viruses and diseases now. Round and around we go....
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I hope this isn't getting personal Dave. ???
I'm just reading what you are posting and taking it at face value.... After all you are the one that said that "wild salmon will soon be a memory". Your work with the nutrient enrichment program is commendable, but your comments contradict your actions. I on the other hand, don't eat farmed salmon, I want the pens out of the ocean, and I support Morton's efforts. No inconsistency there....
Dave's frustrations probably stems from the fact that the real issues as he sees it are either not being addressed by the powers that be and/or the efforts of others are being misdirected in other areas. However, he is unlikely going to sit around and wait for someone else to get off their butt to do something about it. While many environmentalists and fish farm activists preach about loving wild salmon and do little about it other than whine, Dave actually puts his time, energy and money where his mouth is to do what he can. I suspect many of those fish farm activists do not put in half the energy Dave puts into helping wild salmon. Now that he is retired, he can transfer those years of work experience to his passion. We as anglers benefit from people like Dave because of this transfer of knowledge and skill. We actually need more people like Dave doing this sort of stuff and less people hitting the keyboard peaching Ms Morton's gosphel.
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Easywater; If someone has given up on wild salmon as Dave has, any argument for saving wild salmon is going to be irrelevant! ::)
The article you posted is relevant, and is not only a reminder of what can happen to our wild salmon, but it should also be the warning bells indicating that we've got to get these pens out of the ocean.
However the relevance of that article is off topic, as this thread is about a petition that was started by the salmon farmers. However it appears that even the farmers believe that saving the wild salmon is more important than supporting their company, as less than 2.5% of them have signed their petition.
Okay princess, you want to talk about the petition............LOL!.........here you are:
Here's an update posted by the woman who started it:
Change.org helpdesk
To the handful of Morton supporters who demonstrated their total lack of intelligence by simply signing this petition because they saw the name Alexandra Morton and immediately signed it believing they were supporting her without even reading what they were signing you are welcome to remove your names by going to the Change.org help desk and requesting removal. I am unable to remove your names so please stop the threatening messages and nasty names and demonstrate you can actually read something first. Thank you You have demonstrated admirably how blindly you follow Morton.
Posted By Annie Paddle Petition Organizer
June 09, 2012
Seem to be a clever lot.....LOL!
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Okay princess, you want to talk about the petition............LOL!.........here you are:
Here's an update posted by the woman who started it:
Change.org helpdesk
To the handful of Morton supporters who demonstrated their total lack of intelligence by simply signing this petition because they saw the name Alexandra Morton and immediately signed it believing they were supporting her without even reading what they were signing you are welcome to remove your names by going to the Change.org help desk and requesting removal. I am unable to remove your names so please stop the threatening messages and nasty names and demonstrate you can actually read something first. Thank you You have demonstrated admirably how blindly you follow Morton.
Posted By Annie Paddle Petition Organizer
June 09, 2012
Seem to be a clever lot.....LOL!
Only 121 signatures and many of them signed it in error???
Wow that's got to be embarrassing!
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Dave's frustrations probably stems from the fact that the real issues as he sees it are either not being addressed by the powers that be and/or the efforts of others are being misdirected in other areas. However, he is unlikely going to sit around and wait for someone else to get off their butt to do something about it. While many environmentalists and fish farm activists preach about loving wild salmon and do little about it other than whine, Dave actually puts his time, energy and money where his mouth is to do what he can. I suspect many of those fish farm activists do not put in half the energy Dave puts into helping wild salmon. Now that he is retired, he can transfer those years of work experience to his passion. We as anglers benefit from people like Dave because of this transfer of knowledge and skill. We actually need more people like Dave doing this sort of stuff and less people hitting the keyboard peaching Ms Morton's gosphel.
Other than the last half of your last sentence........ I totally agree with you!
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Only 121 signatures and many of them signed it in error???
Wow that's got to be embarrassing!
Indeed. If I was so stupid as to sign a petition without reading it simply because I saw Morton's name associated with it, I certainly wouldn't announce it publicly. I wouldn't send threatening messages or call anyone nasty names just because of my own stupidity either.
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I hope this isn't getting personal Dave. ???
No, it's not personal but after re reading a few my recent comments to you I understand how you got that impression. Steve was right, just frustration on my part.
I do have a pessimistic outlook when it comes to the future of wild salmon but believe me, I have not given up on them.
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No, it's not personal but after re reading a few my recent comments to you I understand how you got that impression. Steve was right, just frustration on my part.
I do have a pessimistic outlook when it comes to the future of wild salmon but believe me, I have not given up on them.
Good to hear Dave.
And as far as my comments...... If all of us just patted each other on the back and agreed with each other, it would make for a pretty boring discussion forum. ;)
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I am Annie Paddle /Heather Olney the poster of the change.org petition to "restrain " Morton from trespassing against security and quarantine measures put in place by CFIA. First of all the petition was started by me and me alone as a sarcastic response through my Twitter account to Morton's petition against Costco and Safeway. Much to my amazement within five minutes 5 people had actually signed it. So I reconsidered and out of curiosity decided to let it take it's course. For those thinking 121 signatures isn't much my response is the total population of North America is some 340 million people. Morton's 12,000 signatures are equally as irrelevant as are my 121. Two people signed the petition that are Morton supporters. One she claimed by mistake and then sent me threatening emails telling me to remove it or quote " I would be sorry " unquote. The other was a rather nasty man from Smithers who by his own admission signed it so he could leave nasty comments and call me profane names including the use of the c word in a public forum. He harassed me for days then demanded I remove his name . Hence my reference to those signing it to contact change.org help-desk if they wanted their names removed. It was never my expectation that I would receive any signatures nor my intent. I was simply being sarcastic. However for some reason those 121 signatures hit a nerve and the Morton crazies leaped to the fore especially on the Salmon are Sacred website where I was accused of starting a petition under a false name and called stupid for thinking by posting my picture on the petition I could hide my identity. Laughable as the fact that Heather Olney and Annie Paddle are one and the same has never been a secret. My disquis user name was my real name Heather Olney as is my Twitter name Annie Paddle my real name. I am called Annie by my husband and closest friends and relatives. Paddle is the name I was born with and Olney my married name. Quite simple . As for the profane names I have been called on the petition now removed by the site administrator well guess that's the mentality of Morton supporters. They didn' t hurt me in the least but certainly raise the question of the mentality of Morton supporters. For example as brought to light by June Sharkey's Protesting the Protesters article " mean little girls and boys " Salmon are Sacred's Facebook page suddenly was awash with silly comments about me. Gee a handful of signatures but the Morton bunch felt that threatened ? Tells me they are better at doling it out than they are at taking it. One individual initials LH went so far as to claim she worked with my husband, he was making back room deals with fish farms and the DFO while on the Mifflin plan, he and I have several sons who own jointly with friends the MHI transport fleet etc. Truth is she doesn't even know my husband, she worked with my father-in-law who shares the same name who never worked on a FF a day in his working life and yes he sits on the board of the native owned lodge on Quadra which she also stated and which I see no relevance as it isn't even a position that has any re-numeration nor does it have anything to do with my petition or salmon wild or farmed. As for sons my father-in-law has one my husband who yes he runs the Orca Chief and he is senior master over MHI transport vessels but own them No. Easily found out by making vessel queries on the Transport Canada website. My husband and I have NO children but my husband raised two daughters of mine from a previous marriage also irrelevant but I state it for the record. As for working with my husband on the Mifflin plan sorry no she didn't . We in fact lived in Yellowpoint at the time of the Mifflin plan and worked on the Holland Creek Trail in Ladysmith where we resided up until 2005. Petty lies told by a supporter to make me appear to have a financial vested interest in Salmon farming. Those comments have since apparently been removed since I told her to remove them or she would hear from my lawyer. She has since made further comments about my husband owning a gill netter. He doesn't . We sold our last gillnetter sixteen years ago and have had no interest in Commercial salmon fishing since. I can only assume that telling falsehoods in public forums is what Morton and her supporters are all about and seem to do best. Further to that they only allow their "friends" to comment on their web blogs so I cannot even refute the lies told about me. Convenient way of making it look like their posts are factual because the person or company they are commenting about appears to have not had a response. Stacking the deck is all it amounts to . Morton's recent antics indicate to me she is loosing support rapidly and becoming more desperate as weeks pass. She claims to want to protect wild salmon but has now smeared wild salmon as being full of assorted diseases. Thanks Alex way to protect one of BC's most valued resources. Perhaps if she really cared about wild salmon and if her supporters really cared about it they would be the ones out doing stream clean ups and repair of salmon habitat instead of trolling the internet with their silly sea lice stuck to their faces dressing as trees, dumping muck at FF offices, leaving their garbage up and down the island on their racist get out migration and assorted other wilful acts of public mischief and vandalism. As to the party posting about Slapp suits considering the multitude of garbage Morton has spewed and posted all over the internet including falsifying the picture from Wikepedia etc she's more in a position to be slapped than anyone signing my petition is. And yes she was slapped at the Cohen enquiry . As for the people who signed my petition I thank you from the bottom of my heart for standing up for what you believe in and putting your names to it. The woman needs to be stopped before she does irreputable harm to ALL salmon farmed or wild.
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By the way the petition was not a gag order request. It was for a restraint order to stop Morton from trespassing against bio security measures in place by CIFA to prevent spread or transfer of disease. Let's get that straight.
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Welcome Annie.
As for those that signed on your petition and were very angry about it,...well, perhaps this (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=internet%20tourettes) is the underlying issue. I feel for them.
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Your probably right . LOL ;)
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Another welcome AnnieP ;) Great response and looking forward to more.
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Welcome to the forum Annie. Thanks for posting your side of the story.
I was wondering if you are perhaps related to Absolon, as I find yours and his writing styles are quite similar..... :D
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Welcome to the forum Annie. Thanks for posting your side of the story.
I was wondering if you are perhaps related to Absolon, as I find yours and his writing styles are quite similar..... :D
Sorry no relation whatsoever. Perhaps we sound alike because we are just like minded in our beliefs and knowledge about salmon farming.
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Welcome to the forum Annie. Thanks for posting your side of the story.
I was wondering if you are perhaps related to Absolon, as I find yours and his writing styles are quite similar..... :D
Hmmm, I don’t see any similarities in their writing styles but do see a similar stance on the issue of Ms. Morton’s credibility; funny, a few of us here can relate to that.
Remember af, you once thought I was absolon :D
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Remember af, you once thought I was absolon :D
Sorry about that Dave..... I had forgotten about that.
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Its ok AF, we are used to the anti's dancing around the facts and nit picking at irrelevant items.
I too was accused here of being two persons some time ago and that accusation was quickly removed after further investigation. It wasn't done by any regular here but when it was announced the anti's cheered. They loved it. It was like they had found prof of a conspiracy theory or something. How odd it was. It really had nothing to do with facts.
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Its ok AF, we are used to the anti's dancing around the facts and nit picking at irrelevant items.
I too was accused here of being two persons some time ago and that accusation was quickly removed after further investigation. It wasn't done by any regular here but when it was announced the anti's cheered. They loved it. It was like they had found prof of a conspiracy theory or something. How odd it was. It really had nothing to do with facts.
It's unfortunate seeing pro fish farmers being persecuted. It's apparently a phenomena related to being a minority....
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Another unsubstantiated fact. You opinion maybe? Part of your PR work here on FWR? Just doing what ever you can to shed bad light on salmon farming?
Are you AM? Just kidding. ;D
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Are you AM?
You'll have to ask Dave..... he's apparently hugged both of us. ;D ;D
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You'll have to ask Dave..... he's apparently hugged both of us. ;D ;D
Sorry aqua, I can guarantee af is not AM. I'm guessing about the same age and for sure the same hair colour, and sadly, the same ideology :D
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It's unfortunate seeing pro fish farmers being persecuted. It's apparently a phenomena related to being a minority....
I would hardly call pro fish farmers a minority. One has to ask oneself why Morton who claims to want to save wild salmon is strangely silent on Enbridge and the tankers out of Kitimat. But wait her uncle Louis Marx Jr. is an oil venture capitalist isn't he and doesn't some of her foundation funding get traced back to the Pew Foundation ? The Pew family founded Sun oil and initiated tar sands development. Strange bedfellows for a alleged wild salmon saviour but there it is hypocrisy at it's best..
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Strange bedfellows for a alleged wild salmon saviour but there it is hypocrisy at it's best..
Or good ol yin yang. Would be nice to know who's doing some good in your family Annie. ;D
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It's unfortunate seeing pro fish farmers being persecuted. It's apparently a phenomena related to being a minority....
I would hardly call pro fish farmers a minority. One has to ask oneself why Morton who claims to want to save wild salmon is strangely silent on Enbridge and the tankers out of Kitimat. But wait her uncle Louis Marx Jr. is an oil venture capitalist isn't he and doesn't some of her foundation funding get traced back to the Pew Foundation ? The Pew family founded Sun oil and initiated tar sands development. Strange bedfellows for a alleged wild salmon saviour but there it is hypocrisy at it's best..
I thought that might prompt a response....... ;D
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I often wondered why her name is never attached to any of the orca work being done allocating spring salmon to certain areas for the orca's. Hmmmm ??? She's an orca researcher isn't she? Not to say that it is right or wrong but for one who commands the attention of th public eye you think she would have said something somewhere. Maybe she did quietly as to not step on any of her supporters toes. ???
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Welcome Annie! Nice to see you put yourself out there and your position on one of these fish boards that has anglers that may not agree with you.
By the way, have you come across Ms Morton's latest lab results from those reoviruses and alphaviruses? Seems as though that tent got pack up fast when she was asked for her lab results. I know what you mean about Morton's blog being very selective on who posts on that site.
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Well done Annie! It's apparent that you have struck a sensitive nerve as evidenced by the attempt to ridicule your petition on this forum and I am impressed by your willingness to meet that attempt head-on. I suspect there is more steel in your spine than is to be found in all of those who criticize what you have done.
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I think you mean "assume" her spine is not affected by some of those dirty fish she's chowhounding on. 8)
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I wouldn't call that thinking. In fact, I'd call it a childish taunt that demonstrates exactly what Annie was saying.
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I wouldn't call that thinking. In fact, I'd call it a childish taunt that demonstrates exactly what Annie was saying.
" evidenced by the attempt to ridicule your petition on this forum "
yes really, good comeback
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Well done Annie! It's apparent that you have struck a sensitive nerve as evidenced by the attempt to ridicule your petition on this forum and I am impressed by your willingness to meet that attempt head-on. I suspect there is more steel in your spine than is to be found in all of those who criticize what you have done.
Annie's conspiracy theories about Morton are a lot more entertaining than the ones we've been hearing from you feedlot boys. For example....
One has to ask oneself why Morton who claims to want to save wild salmon is strangely silent on Enbridge and the tankers out of Kitimat. But wait her uncle Louis Marx Jr. is an oil venture capitalist isn't he and doesn't some of her foundation funding get traced back to the Pew Foundation ? The Pew family founded Sun oil and initiated tar sands development. Strange bedfellows for a alleged wild salmon saviour but there it is hypocrisy at it's best..
I wouldn't be surprised if her next post accused Morton of being responsible for the failing world financial system and the lack of world peace..... ::) ;D
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Annie's conspiracy theories about Morton are a lot more entertaining than the ones we've been hearing from you feedlot boys. For example....
I wouldn't be surprised if her next post accused Morton of being responsible for the failing world financial system and the lack of world peace..... ::) ;D
Ms Morton's uncle is an oil venture capitalist. Not a conspiracy theory at all. Information easily found on the internet by googling Louis Marx Jr. He had several suspicious oil deals with the Bush family as a matter of fact. It is also a proven fact thanks to Vivian Krause and her research of US foundation tax returns that Morton has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from US so called charitable foundations. Her agenda is not to protect wild salmon at all. That is obvious by the fact she does nothing but slag farm salmon. Unfortunately of late she has taken it too far and has managed to convince people BC wild salmon is diseased and not fit to eat. Comments on assorted blogs connected to her dubious disease test results are not just saying they won't eat farmed salmon but now they don't want ANY salmon period. As for her and Routledge's claims about ISA that too is a falsehood. If you look at the OIE website you will find no mention of confirmed ISA in BC even though Kibenge the leading scientist at the lab is the one she credits with isolating the virus. Odd how her supporters can still swallow that story and not question why the lab doesn't confirm her claims. But hey Morton gets around that by calling Dr. Marty PhD a liar, CFIA are liars and so is the DFO. Seems everyone who doesn't agree with her is a liar. Or at least everyone unable to confirm her dubious test results. As for conspiracy theories that is laughable. The truth is on the internet. Morton's mother Barbara Marx Hubbard is a real nutter. Founder of Conscious Evolution some new age religion. And according to her non believers will be culled come December 21st but hey don't believe me just google her on YouTube. The resemblance between Morton and her mother are quite remarkable. And did you know Morton spent some time studying with Dr John Lilly ? Yes the nutter who developed the sensory deprivation tank and also credited with doing the most LSD of anyone in the world according to some. Quite the credentials has Ms Morton. Thanks I'll stick to the real scientists and PhD's for my scientific evidence not some bushed hippy with credentials she alters weekly according to whom she is speaking.
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I wouldn't call that thinking. In fact, I'd call it a childish taunt that demonstrates exactly what Annie was saying.
Amazing how Morton supporters can still believe she has any credibility as a scientist when she deliberately violated quarantine and bio security measures put in place by the world recognized Canadian Food Inspection Agency. No real scientist would deliberately violate a quarantine area risking the spread of ANY disease. Hardly the behaviour of a professional scientist but certainly the behaviour of an activist intent on wiping out salmon farming by any means possible ie by spreading the disease outside the quarantined area. I wonder what Morton supporters would think if some other activist deliberatly violated a quarantine area for avian flu or mad cow disease. Would they applaud that activist the way they do Morton ?
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I wouldn't call that thinking. In fact, I'd call it a childish taunt that demonstrates exactly what Annie was saying.
I've been playing this game for a long time and have learned that when they are stung their only comeback is an insult because they having nothing else to fall back on. Typical, expected and irrelevent. Sticks and stones nothing more. As June Sharkey said " mean little girls and boys".
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"As the wife of a Marine Harvest employee"
Does this resemble you?
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AnnieP, your'e a breath of fresh air. Almost wish I wasn't leaving this morning for a week or so ;D
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"As the wife of a Marine Harvest employee"
Does this resemble you?
No secret and I'm certainly not ashamed of it either. And I'm using my real name and standing behind what I say publicly. When you want to make personal comments about me I suggest you use your real name instead of doing so from the safety of your fake user name. Like I said when Morton supporters are stung they come back with attempted insults. In case you don't know me very well those that do will tell you I am intimidated by no one and name calling doesn't hurt me. Just so you know
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AnnieP, your'e a breath of fresh air. Almost wish I wasn't leaving this morning for a week or so ;D
Thanks Dave. Back at you. Nice to find a blog with mostly civil posters for a change.
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For those who are interested, here is a link to The Foundation for Conscious Evolution: http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/ (http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/)
Note the Hubbard family crest:
(http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/images/donate_now-small.png)
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Annie, Some one is going to ask you this so I figure I may as well get it out of the way because as everybody here knows the anti's like to accuse the pro farm guys and now galls of not being sport fishers. Another irrelevant idea that comes up often so if you don't they will get a feeling of empowerment.
For me the question is not a big deal but for others here I know this question is like laying it all on the line.
Annie, Do you fish?
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If anyone bothers to read that 4 year old link they will see that for so many reasons already discussed here, it's irrelevant to BC salmon farming and the issues surrounding it.
You know, this response has come up a number of times recently whenever someone new enters the debate (I myself was met with the same response a year to two ago), that "this has all been discussed before" and so is "irrelevant." On the contrary, while this HAS indeed all been "discussed" before, nothing has been resolved. In fact, after being told that same line months ago, I was treated with the patience for a noob to the debate, and was allowed to engage at length. However, nothing that came out of that debate served to ease my worry or convince me that my worries were "irrelevant." At best, I was left with the following arguments for the continuation of open net salmon farming in BC:
1. The environmental factors are different in BC than in all the other parts of the world where open net salmon farming has had a negative impact on the local ecosystems, so we have nothing to worry about here.
2. The "old" studies are no longer relevant because the industry in BC has learned from those mistakes and has cleaned up their act here.
3. The ocean is very large so salmon farms (which are very small) cannot possibly have a significant impact on the local ecosystems.
4. The decline of wild salmon in BC cannot be attributed solely to open net salmon farming, so leave the farms alone until you deal with all the other factors that may be affecting the salmon.
Even the sea lice study that Steve posted conclude that the sea lice infections of migrating pink salmon were ultimately reduced by fallowing the farms during their out migration. Brauner et al. also ended their study with the suggestion that the sea lice infections at these critical life stages, while perhaps harmful, may not be as significant as other factors (as though having to dodge one bullet is not as significant as having to run through a mine field). You know, I get that open net salmon farming may not be the only factor contributing to the decline of wild salmon, but no one has convinced me they have no impact, and while many here may be willing to accept the impacts they do have as "insignificant" or "irrelevant," I am not one of them. Salmon farms are symptomatic of our failure as a species to manage our ecosystems responsibly; they are a sign that we are resigned to accept the destructive force that is human "progress," just as Dave, champion of wild salmon and steelhead, is willing to accept them as a necessary part of our future.
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Annie, Some one is going to ask you this so I figure I may as well get it out of the way because as everybody here knows the anti's like to accuse the pro farm guys and now galls of not being sport fishers. Another irrelevant idea that comes up often so if you don't they will get a feeling of empowerment.
For me the question is not a big deal but for others here I know this question is like laying it all on the line.
Annie, Do you fish?
No I don't believe you save wild salmon runs by fishing them. We sold our commercial fish boat 16 years ago. We haven't ever really been sports fishermen although we do own a boat that we seldom use LOL. We do sometimes get food fish though as my husband is native but not in large amounts. I admit to it because I'm sure the accusation will arise. My personal preference is farmed Atlantic though.
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Ms Morton's uncle is an oil venture capitalist. Not a conspiracy theory at all. Information easily found on the internet by googling Louis Marx Jr. He had several suspicious oil deals with the Bush family as a matter of fact. It is also a proven fact thanks to Vivian Krause and her research of US foundation tax returns that Morton has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from US so called charitable foundations. Her agenda is not to protect wild salmon at all. That is obvious by the fact she does nothing but slag farm salmon. Unfortunately of late she has taken it too far and has managed to convince people BC wild salmon is diseased and not fit to eat. Comments on assorted blogs connected to her dubious disease test results are not just saying they won't eat farmed salmon but now they don't want ANY salmon period. As for her and Routledge's claims about ISA that too is a falsehood. If you look at the OIE website you will find no mention of confirmed ISA in BC even though Kibenge the leading scientist at the lab is the one she credits with isolating the virus. Odd how her supporters can still swallow that story and not question why the lab doesn't confirm her claims. But hey Morton gets around that by calling Dr. Marty PhD a liar, CFIA are liars and so is the DFO. Seems everyone who doesn't agree with her is a liar. Or at least everyone unable to confirm her dubious test results. As for conspiracy theories that is laughable. The truth is on the internet. Morton's mother Barbara Marx Hubbard is a real nutter. Founder of Conscious Evolution some new age religion. And according to her non believers will be culled come December 21st but hey don't believe me just google her on YouTube. The resemblance between Morton and her mother are quite remarkable. And did you know Morton spent some time studying with Dr John Lilly ? Yes the nutter who developed the sensory deprivation tank and also credited with doing the most LSD of anyone in the world according to some. Quite the credentials has Ms Morton. Thanks I'll stick to the real scientists and PhD's for my scientific evidence not some bushed hippy with credentials she alters weekly according to whom she is speaking.
You don't realize how thankful I am right now that I didn't "choose" to be born into a family like Morton "chose" to be born into...... ::) Although I still may be at risk because I have a cousin who has made a fortune selling parts to the oil industry... :-\
However, I'm sure you'll be able to appreciate that I should be safe from the impending Martian attacks, seeing as I'm wearing my tin foil hat. :D
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For those who are interested, here is a link to The Foundation for Conscious Evolution: http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/ (http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/)
Note the Hubbard family crest:
(http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/images/donate_now-small.png)
"Tracking viruses is extremely expensive work, if you want to be part of this work please contribute here "
Taken from Morton's Typepad blog. Apparently getting false test results is expensive work and requires more money than the US foundations and Tides are giving her.
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You don't realize how thankful I am right now that I didn't "choose" to be born into a family like Morton "chose" to be born into...... ::) Although I still may be at risk because I have a cousin who has made a fortune selling parts to the oil industry... :-\
However, I'm sure you'll be able to appreciate that I should be safe from the impending Martian attacks, seeing as I'm wearing my tin foil hat. :D
Hmmm I wonder if tin foil is appropriate for the impending cull Ms Morton's mother claims will happen on December 21st 2012. Apparently non believers will be "culled " on that day. But if you believe Morton maybe you believe her mother too ?? Good luck with the tin foil. If your a believer you certainly won't be a cullee
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You know, this response has come up a number of times recently whenever someone new enters the debate (I myself was met with the same response a year to two ago), that "this has all been discussed before" and so is "irrelevant." On the contrary, while this HAS indeed all been "discussed" before, nothing has been resolved. In fact, after being told that same line months ago, I was treated with the patience for a noob to the debate, and was allowed to engage at length. However, nothing that came out of that debate served to ease my worry or convince me that my worries were "irrelevant." At best, I was left with the following arguments for the continuation of open net salmon farming in BC:
1. The environmental factors are different in BC than in all the other parts of the world where open net salmon farming has had a negative impact on the local ecosystems, so we have nothing to worry about here.
2. The "old" studies are no longer relevant because the industry in BC has learned from those mistakes and has cleaned up their act here.
3. The ocean is very large so salmon farms (which are very small) cannot possibly have a significant impact on the local ecosystems.
4. The decline of wild salmon in BC cannot be attributed solely to open net salmon farming, so leave the farms alone until you deal with all the other factors that may be affecting the salmon.
Even the sea lice study that Steve posted conclude that the sea lice infections of migrating pink salmon were ultimately reduced by fallowing the farms during their out migration. Brauner et al. also ended their study with the suggestion that the sea lice infections at these critical life stages, while perhaps harmful, may not be as significant as other factors (as though having to dodge one bullet is not as significant as having to run through a mine field). You know, I get that open net salmon farming may not be the only factor contributing to the decline of wild salmon, but no one has convinced me they have no impact, and while many here may be willing to accept the impacts they do have as "insignificant" or "irrelevant," I am not one of them. Salmon farms are symptomatic of our failure as a species to manage our ecosystems responsibly; they are a sign that we are resigned to accept the destructive force that is human "progress," just as Dave, champion of wild salmon and steelhead, is willing to accept them as a necessary part of our future.
I think your interpretation of the arguments you suggest you are left with is a bit off the mark.
1. The physical, biological and regulatory environments are different here than in other salmon farming jurisdictions and that means that in order to be relevant the arguments against farming here need to be based on outcomes that happen here under our circumstances. One can't make a blanket condemnation of BC farms based on, for instance, Norway where the problems are largely a result of an introduced parasite and interbreeding between farm and wild stocks or Chile, where problems are a result of a very lax regulatory regime. That isn't to say that there are no valid criticisms of the BC industry, but that any criticism must be based on outcomes that happen here.
2. Older studies usually reflect conditions that occurred in the past as the industry climbed the learning curve. If the farms did not learn from the mistakes of the past and did not change their practices to reduce their impacts, the older studies would be valid criticism. For example, industry practices with respect to sea lice reduction have changed as sea lice problems have been better identified and defined and consequently, criticism of the older practices isn't relevant to the current situation. The link Dave commented on used as it's basis a study which, on closer examination, specifically suggested that Coho did not appear to be affected and which specifically based it's conclusions about Pinks on Kroksek's conclusions which have subsequently proven to be incorrect. It's conclusions are outdated and not relevant. Coincidentally, the author of that study, along with Kroksek sit on the advisory board of Morton's latest venture, her research institute.
3. Our discussion about the scale of salmon farms was based on some claims about the magnitude of the effects of farms and involved developing a scale of magnitude in order to be able to determine the relative importance of the waste outputs of the farms and to put them into the context of an open system rather than dealing with them as cumulative absolutes. The farms are very small compared to the environment within which they operate and the effects aren't sufficient to push the system past a tipping point. Inconclusive studies of the effects of high density aquaculture in the warm water Mediterranean are not evidence of damage here; without evidence of damage here it simply isn't accurate to suggest that the farms are causing damage.
4. There are many factors that are known to negatively affect the wild stocks here. Fish farming has been hypothesized by some to affect the stocks. It isn't a reasonable notion that we should focus our attention on fish farms that might be a source of problems and ignore all those other things we know are the cause of declines. That isn't to say we should ignore farms, but farms are responsive and change their practices as required once problems are defined; they are actively working to minimize their footprint. If we really want to improve the outlook for the stocks our energies would be far better spent focusing on those things such as overharvesting, habitat destruction, gene pool degradation and the multitude of other factors that we are certain have negative effects on the fish. All of those slip under the radar because of the noise about fish farms and addressing them would give us concrete rather than speculative improvements to the outlook for the wild stocks. It's just basic common sense.
When people suggest that it has all been discussed before it is because it has, over and over and over and at length. Nearly everyone who approaches the debate does so based on a picture developed by Morton and her cohort and much of that picture is simply not true. I've lost count of the number of times I've started at the beginning yet again to walk someone through it and to try and provide a more accurate picture and the almost invariable response is anger when those Morton based claims that are taken to heart are shown to be inaccurate. Some, like yourself, have an adult response but most get reduced to schoolyard taunting and what could most charitably be called nonsensical trash talk. And then there is always someone else who shows up repeating the same timeworn criticisms. It's no wonder that those who have some understanding of the fish and the farm business get frustrated and develop such a low opinion of Morton. Though there is no firm resolution, it isn't reasonable to expect one. What has been resolved is that many of the arguments used against fish farming are either irrelevant or untrue and that in order for them to be relevant they must be based on fact rather than opinion and relate to the industry as it operates here.
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Petty lies told by a supporter to make me appear to have a financial vested interest in Salmon farming.
"As the wife of a Marine Harvest employee"
No secret and I'm certainly not ashamed of it either. And I'm using my real name and standing behind what I say publicly.
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Use your words trout breath.
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I wouldn't be surprised if her next post accused Morton of being responsible for the failing world financial system and the lack of world peace..... ::) ;D
Most people who are in the least bit informed understand that it was greed and the people in the financial sector who are responsible for the failing financial system. Morton clearly has nothing to do with it.
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It isn't a reasonable notion that we should focus our attention on fish farms that might be a source of problems and ignore all those other things we know are the cause of declines.
That is a Red Herring. Focusing attention on fish farms does not mean ignoring other things we know are causing problems. The reason people are focusing on fish farms is because they are a new threat (one that should never have been allowed in the first place given the problems in other jurisdictions around the world) and one that can be more easily solved (by their removal from the waters) than the other threats to wild salmon. Once the farms are gone, we can divert energies back to the other, more difficult problems in our waters. Besides, if you are correct, and there is nothing wrong with farming Atlantic Salmon in open net pens in BC waters, then waiting until the inevitable disappearance of the wild pacific salmon should be easy, as it will be a short wait.
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Use your words trout breath.
It's troutbreath, one word not two.
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Most people who are in the least bit informed understand that it was greed and the people in the financial sector who are responsible for the failing financial system. Morton clearly has nothing to do with it.
Next time for your benefit I'll explain when my statement includes sarcasm....
However, I'm glad you believe Morton has nothing to do with the failing financial system. Does that mean you believe she is responsible for the lack of world peace? :D
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Next time for your benefit I'll explain when my statement includes sarcasm....
That would be a good idea. Anyone else, I'd understand it as sarcasm. With you I've learned never to assume common sense is involved.
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That is a Red Herring. Focusing attention on fish farms does not mean ignoring other things we know are causing problems. The reason people are focusing on fish farms is because they are a new threat (one that should never have been allowed in the first place given the problems in other jurisdictions around the world) and one that can be more easily solved (by their removal from the waters) than the other threats to wild salmon. Once the farms are gone, we can divert energies back to the other, more difficult problems in our waters. Besides, if you are correct, and there is nothing wrong with farming Atlantic Salmon in open net pens in BC waters, then waiting until the inevitable disappearance of the wild pacific salmon should be easy, as it will be a short wait.
That's quite a misconception. You need to read a book written by Geoff Meggs entitled " Salmon The Decline of the British Columbia Fishery ". The decline was warned of as early as the 1920's. It continued right up until present day. Don't know what your connection to salmon is but the demise of salmon has been an ongoing thing for decades long before salmon farming. Even in Norway the truth is that salmon farming began as a means to supplement a declining Atlantic salmon population. The same holds true for Alaska and it's over enhanced salmon "ranching " . Alaska began an over intensive hatchery program to enhance stocks that had been severely overfished and under managed by the sixties. Focusing on fish farms is ignoring the truth and that is that ALL three user groups Native, commercial and sports have abused the salmon runs in BC almost to some being almost wiped out entirely. Natives demand their treaty rights, sporties claim their industry is worth more to the economy than commercial and commercial fishermen cry about their investment. I admit to being one of them at one time. Everyone puts their greed ahead of the stocks. And so here we are. It's too bad that those that jump on the Morton train don't take the trouble to visit a salmon farm and see for themselves what a beautiful fish they are. What people don't seem to get is that FF have nothing to gain by abusing the Eco system. That healthy Eco system grows healthy fish. Whether people choose to believe an activist or the truth about regulation of the industry it is in fact the most highly regulated industry. Pity no one ever regulated the industries that pollute the Fraser on a daily basis. Or the logging industries that destroyed fish habitat all over BC. The demise of BC salmon was initiated long before FF were ever thought of. And that is the truth. Removing FF from the water will do nothing more than cause massive unemployment of many people a large proportion of whom were already displaced by a declining commercial salmon industry. The decline of wild salmon will continue in spite of removing FF just as it is in places like Washington state, Oregon and California all states suffering from the same fluctuating salmon runs and two of them have NO salmon farms to blame. When you've displaced 6000 individuals and countless businesses it will be a mote point to say oops I'm sorry I guess I was wrong about salmon farms.
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That's quite a misconception. You need to read a book written by Geoff Meggs entitled " Salmon The Decline of the British Columbia Fishery ". The decline was warned of as early as the 1920's. It continued right up until present day. Don't know what your connection to salmon is but the demise of salmon has been an ongoing thing for decades long before salmon farming. Even in Norway the truth is that salmon farming began as a means to supplement a declining Atlantic salmon population. The same holds true for Alaska and it's over enhanced salmon "ranching " . Alaska began an over intensive hatchery program to enhance stocks that had been severely overfished and under managed by the sixties. Focusing on fish farms is ignoring the truth and that is that ALL three user groups Native, commercial and sports have abused the salmon runs in BC almost to some being almost wiped out entirely. Natives demand their treaty rights, sporties claim their industry is worth more to the economy than commercial and commercial fishermen cry about their investment. I admit to being one of them at one time. Everyone puts their greed ahead of the stocks. And so here we are. It's too bad that those that jump on the Morton train don't take the trouble to visit a salmon farm and see for themselves what a beautiful fish they are. What people don't seem to get is that FF have nothing to gain by abusing the Eco system. That healthy Eco system grows healthy fish. Whether people choose to believe an activist or the truth about regulation of the industry it is in fact the most highly regulated industry. Pity no one ever regulated the industries that pollute the Fraser on a daily basis. Or the logging industries that destroyed fish habitat all over BC. The demise of BC salmon was initiated long before FF were ever thought of. And that is the truth. Removing FF from the water will do nothing more than cause massive unemployment of many people a large proportion of whom were already displaced by a declining commercial salmon industry. The decline of wild salmon will continue in spite of removing FF just as it is in places like Washington state, Oregon and California all states suffering from the same fluctuating salmon runs and two of them have NO salmon farms to blame. When you've displaced 6000 individuals and countless businesses it will be a mote point to say oops I'm sorry I guess I was wrong about salmon farms.
No, Annie, it is not a misconception. Like other fish farm advocates, you insist that the fish farms are not the cause of the decline, therefore should be left alone. THAT is the Red Herring. I am well aware of the history of the decline of the salmon fishery in BC. I read Meggs when I wrote my own paper in the 90s on the collapse of the commercial salmon fishery after the Cruikshank report came out about the same time as Meggs book. What I am saying is that the salmon, already in decline, are now having to negotiate through the waters polluted by the fish farms. You may argue that the pollution (be it biological or chemical) is small compared to the size of the ocean, or that the tides here can flush the sites adequately so there is no real harm, but I do not buy it. The fact that the sea lice study quoted earlier showed that fallowing the farms reduced the sea lice infection rates, demonstrates the harm the farms can cause. The fact that sea lice infection, while potentially harmful to juvenile salmon at a critical stage, is not the worst thing facing a migrating juvenile salmon, doesn't change the fact that it is an additional stress facing an already stressed salmon. Add to this the potential for the farms to amplify diseases that could then be passed to salmon, perhaps when they are returning to spawn and will be in high concentrations in the rivers with already weaken immune systems, and the danger is there. The fact that the farms have nothing to gain by abusing the ecosystem, is irrelevant, although some (who shall remain nameless) may argue fish farmers would profit handsomely if the wild Pacific stocks disappeared and the world was dependent on farmed Atlantics for their salmon "needs." You don't need to want to harm the ecosystem to do it. There are many instances in the past where fish farms have harmed the local ecosystem, whether intentionally or not. While many have "learned" from those mistakes and have cleaned up their act, that doesn't change the fact that their activity harmed the ecosystem. The fact that it is such a heavily regulated industry is testimony to harm they can cause the surrounding environment. As I have said, trying to get the farms out of the water does not mean ignoring those other polluters in the Fraser, or the thousands of tons of plastics floating around the Pacific basin where the salmon, and their food fish, feed. I do not need to ignore the other causes when I turn my attention to fish farms. I understand the thousands of jobs that are at stake, and that is a shame, but as I said, those jobs should never have been created. The jobs that should have been created were the ones that reduce the dependency on the products and packaging that are eroding our planets ecosystems. I understand you have accepted that a farmed Atlantic salmon is as beautiful as a wild pacific salmon, but I do not. One day we may all be forced to eat farmed Atlantic salmon, at that will be a sad day, but until that day comes, lets give the wild salmon the best chance for survival. When they are all gone, then you can have our barren seas to raise as many farmed Atlantics as you can stomach.
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One day we may all be forced to eat farmed Atlantic salmon, at that will be a sad day, but until that day comes, lets give the wild salmon the best chance for survival. When they are all gone, then you can have our barren seas to raise as many farmed Atlantics as you can stomach.
Very sad, but realistic commentary..... :(
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No, Annie, it is not a misconception. Like other fish farm advocates, you insist that the fish farms are not the cause of the decline, therefore should be left alone. THAT is the Red Herring. I am well aware of the history of the decline of the salmon fishery in BC. I read Meggs when I wrote my own paper in the 90s on the collapse of the commercial salmon fishery after the Cruikshank report came out about the same time as Meggs book. What I am saying is that the salmon, already in decline, are now having to negotiate through the waters polluted by the fish farms. You may argue that the pollution (be it biological or chemical) is small compared to the size of the ocean, or that the tides here can flush the sites adequately so there is no real harm, but I do not buy it. The fact that the sea lice study quoted earlier showed that fallowing the farms reduced the sea lice infection rates, demonstrates the harm the farms can cause. The fact that sea lice infection, while potentially harmful to juvenile salmon at a critical stage, is not the worst thing facing a migrating juvenile salmon, doesn't change the fact that it is an additional stress facing an already stressed salmon. Add to this the potential for the farms to amplify diseases that could then be passed to salmon, perhaps when they are returning to spawn and will be in high concentrations in the rivers with already weaken immune systems, and the danger is there. The fact that the farms have nothing to gain by abusing the ecosystem, is irrelevant, although some (who shall remain nameless) may argue fish farmers would profit handsomely if the wild Pacific stocks disappeared and the world was dependent on farmed Atlantics for their salmon "needs." You don't need to want to harm the ecosystem to do it. There are many instances in the past where fish farms have harmed the local ecosystem, whether intentionally or not. While many have "learned" from those mistakes and have cleaned up their act, that doesn't change the fact that their activity harmed the ecosystem. The fact that it is such a heavily regulated industry is testimony to harm they can cause the surrounding environment. As I have said, trying to get the farms out of the water does not mean ignoring those other polluters in the Fraser, or the thousands of tons of plastics floating around the Pacific basin where the salmon, and their food fish, feed. I do not need to ignore the other causes when I turn my attention to fish farms. I understand the thousands of jobs that are at stake, and that is a shame, but as I said, those jobs should never have been created. The jobs that should have been created were the ones that reduce the dependency on the products and packaging that are eroding our planets ecosystems. I understand you have accepted that a farmed Atlantic salmon is as beautiful as a wild pacific salmon, but I do not. One day we may all be forced to eat farmed Atlantic salmon, at that will be a sad day, but until that day comes, lets give the wild salmon the best chance for survival. When they are all gone, then you can have our barren seas to raise as many farmed Atlantics as you can stomach.
I completely agree. In my opinion, salmon farming isn't worth the risk. There are other bigger issues surrounding the decline of wild stocks, but just because farming isn't at the top of that list it shouldn't be ignored. Further to that it is one of the most easily "corrected" issues.
It's clear that many of the pro-aquaculture group are passionate about wild salmon, I think if I read between the lines, they even accept that farming doesn't come without consequence to the environment in which it operates? Disregarding the extremist groups on both sides, it appears that it is the difference in opinion on how damaged the wild stocks are already that separates the "pros" from the "antis". Do supporters of fish farms feel that the farms take pressure off demand for commercial harvest (a good thing) and if we were to lose them the increase in harvesting of wild stocks to meet demand would be worse than the possible negative effects of keeping them? I'm just trying to understand what makes farms worth keeping and I don't view "jobs", "money", "BC's global position in the salmon farming olympics" or "this paper that discredits that paper" as good reasons. They are great catalysts to keep a debate going, but that doesn't help sustain wild fish! So to those people, like Dave, who appear to be above anything pro-wild salmon, I have a question. If the outlook for wild fish is so bleak and the potential for damaging those stocks further through farming exists, what greater threat are the farms offsetting that it isn't worth removing them all together?
-Jared
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No, Annie, it is not a misconception. Like other fish farm advocates, you insist that the fish farms are not the cause of the decline, therefore should be left alone. THAT is the Red Herring. I am well aware of the history of the decline of the salmon fishery in BC. I read Meggs when I wrote my own paper in the 90s on the collapse of the commercial salmon fishery after the Cruikshank report came out about the same time as Meggs book. What I am saying is that the salmon, already in decline, are now having to negotiate through the waters polluted by the fish farms. You may argue that the pollution (be it biological or chemical) is small compared to the size of the ocean, or that the tides here can flush the sites adequately so there is no real harm, but I do not buy it. The fact that the sea lice study quoted earlier showed that fallowing the farms reduced the sea lice infection rates, demonstrates the harm the farms can cause. The fact that sea lice infection, while potentially harmful to juvenile salmon at a critical stage, is not the worst thing facing a migrating juvenile salmon, doesn't change the fact that it is an additional stress facing an already stressed salmon. Add to this the potential for the farms to amplify diseases that could then be passed to salmon, perhaps when they are returning to spawn and will be in high concentrations in the rivers with already weaken immune systems, and the danger is there. The fact that the farms have nothing to gain by abusing the ecosystem, is irrelevant, although some (who shall remain nameless) may argue fish farmers would profit handsomely if the wild Pacific stocks disappeared and the world was dependent on farmed Atlantics for their salmon "needs." You don't need to want to harm the ecosystem to do it. There are many instances in the past where fish farms have harmed the local ecosystem, whether intentionally or not. While many have "learned" from those mistakes and have cleaned up their act, that doesn't change the fact that their activity harmed the ecosystem. The fact that it is such a heavily regulated industry is testimony to harm they can cause the surrounding environment. As I have said, trying to get the farms out of the water does not mean ignoring those other polluters in the Fraser, or the thousands of tons of plastics floating around the Pacific basin where the salmon, and their food fish, feed. I do not need to ignore the other causes when I turn my attention to fish farms. I understand the thousands of jobs that are at stake, and that is a shame, but as I said, those jobs should never have been created. The jobs that should have been created were the ones that reduce the dependency on the products and packaging that are eroding our planets ecosystems. I understand you have accepted that a farmed Atlantic salmon is as beautiful as a wild pacific salmon, but I do not. One day we may all be forced to eat farmed Atlantic salmon, at that will be a sad day, but until that day comes, lets give the wild salmon the best chance for survival. When they are all gone, then you can have our barren seas to raise as many farmed Atlantics as you can stomach.
Doesn't alter the fact the sea lice theory is old news and one that has been thrown aside. Dick Beamish had a study that shows other areas away from salmon farms actually had higher levels of sea lice than those in farm areas. It kind of blew Ms Morton's claim that she "discovered sealice in the Broughton " all to heck. One has to wonder if those salmon fry she shows covered with sea lice are actually collected off that sewer pipe she has running down from her cabin in the Broughton to the ocean. You mention the plastic in the ocean. Yes another variable never before considered for wild salmon. Fish and wild life have all been found with bellyfulls of the dreaded stuff. Whale necroscopys have shown whales with bellyfulls of plastic as well. Do you really believe that creating jobs in BC to rid us of plastic and packaging would have had an effect on fish that go to sea thousands of miles away from their birth river and encounter things we have no knowledge of ? I really doubt BC ridding itself of plastic and packaging would matter in the least when thousands of ships and boats at sea are dumping garbage daily illegally. I recycle almost everything I use and rarely even put out my garbage for collection. But when I walk the beach I see nothing but tooth brushes, plastic bottles, cans, rope, plastic crates, tampon tubes, condoms you name it. I'm just one person doing my part but it just doesn't matter if everyone doesn't do it.
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Doesn't alter the fact the sea lice theory is old news and one that has been thrown aside. Dick Beamish had a study that shows other areas away from salmon farms actually had higher levels of sea lice than those in farm areas. It kind of blew Ms Morton's claim that she "discovered sealice in the Broughton " all to heck.
And Martin Krkošek has a number of studies (one in 2005 and the latest in 2010) confirming the opposite. Hardly signs the issue has been "thrown aside" following Beamish's 2009 study.
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Even the sea lice study that Steve posted conclude that the sea lice infections of migrating pink salmon were ultimately reduced by fallowing the farms during their out migration.
I am glad you took the time to read the recent studies I posted but Brauner et al 2012 noted that this “voluntary compliance may mitigate salmon louse effects on the most sensitive stages of Pink Salmon.” In this paper, they show evidence that sublethal effects were not evident once Pink Salmon reach 0.5g. I believe what this paper is saying is that the fallowing by the industry was indeed helpful in reducing louse levels and Pink salmon infections to background levels, but there is evidence that Pink Salmon fry (especially those after one or two months of growth) show much more resilience to louse infections than what was once hypothesis. Remember, Ms Morton once thought that this science with sea lice and salmon was pretty simple (i.e. they get lice – they die). After reading the study it appears as though it is not all that simple. I believe that hypothesis by Morton has finally been laid to rest.
The authors do concede that that this interaction between sea lice and Pink Salmon can be complex and can dependent on certain factors which can create some uncertainty (i.e. swimming performance); however, by identifying the most sensitive life history stages and fallowing farms accordingly during this time, the study seems to suggest from my perspective farmed salmon and wild salmon can coexist. I do not think that sea lice have absolutely no impact – of course they do and the study talks about that impact; however, its the magnitude of that impact which grows more and more suspect every year with more data coming out. I just do not buy into sea lice being the big problem as it was played out to be, especially when the BC industry has been proactive already to mitigate those potential impacts with the very sensitive life stages. I agree with Absolon when he says that if the farms did not learn from their past mistakes then the older studies would have much more horsepower, but fact is that they have. Making comparisons to Chile or some warm water country is really meaningless because it does not provide evidence of damage here.
Stringent regulations are testimony to the harm they can cause the surrounding environment? Seems strange that the public demands tighter and more stringent regulations for industries that operate in and around water, but when an industry like the BC fish farm industry operates in a more heavily regulatory environment to reduce impacts (and achieves positive results as demonstrated by Brauner et al 2012) as demanded by the public it still is not good enough for some. Meanwhile, “back at the farm”, many other activities with much more impact and not as heavily regulated go about their way of doing things. Fish farms are an easy political target. Personally, I would feel more comfortable with an industry with a regulatory regime that that is much more stringent than without. When I pair this study with the other one I posted it reinforces in my mind sea lice is not the Armageddon that it was made out to be. Pink salmon are on the increase in the North Pacific. Pink salmon runs can be highly cyclical also with highs and lows even before salmon farming even began. I say “was” because it is clear that the higher profile farm critics do not even mention sea lice anymore. From my perspective, there are much more pressing matters to be concerned about.
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And Martin Krkošek has a number of studies (one in 2005 and the latest in 2010) confirming the opposite. Hardly signs the issue has been "thrown aside" following Beamish's 2009 study.
If you believe correlative studies like Krkosek then you should look at what Morton et al 2010 said about the prevalence of sea lice near farms and away from farms. Again, not as simple as Morton protrays it.
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For those who are interested, here is a link to The Foundation for Conscious Evolution: http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/ (http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/)
Note the Hubbard family crest:
(http://www.barbaramarxhubbard.com/images/donate_now-small.png)
And then there's Alex Morton's
http://www.gofundme.com/SalmonDiseaseTestingFund
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And Martin Krkošek has a number of studies (one in 2005 and the latest in 2010) confirming the opposite. Hardly signs the issue has been "thrown aside" following Beamish's 2009 study.
And the latest study shows that food source was low for out migrating salmon in 2007 and it is considered they starved before they even made it out to sea. Krkosek's studies are usually just a rehash of old material. And he is Morton's buddy in study. Show me a study written by someone who has never been associated with Morton. It is no secret most of Morton's papers are peer reviewed by the same people Krkosek and Volpe for another.
http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Lack+food+ocean+conditions+behind+poor+2009+sockeye+returns/6933718/story.html
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And the latest study shows that food source was low for out migrating salmon in 2007 and it is considered they starved before they even made it out to sea. Krkosek's studies are usually just a rehash of old material. And he is Morton's buddy in study. Show me a study written by someone who has never been associated with Morton. It is no secret most of Morton's papers are peer reviewed by the same people Krkosek and Volpe for another.
http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Lack+food+ocean+conditions+behind+poor+2009+sockeye+returns/6933718/story.html
...and I thought the antis had the market cornered on conspiracy theories.
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And the latest study shows that food source was low for out migrating salmon in 2007 and it is considered they starved before they even made it out to sea. Krkosek's studies are usually just a rehash of old material. And he is Morton's buddy in study. Show me a study written by someone who has never been associated with Morton. It is no secret most of Morton's papers are peer reviewed by the same people Krkosek and Volpe for another.
http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Lack+food+ocean+conditions+behind+poor+2009+sockeye+returns/6933718/story.html
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30611.msg290785#msg290785 (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=30611.msg290785#msg290785)
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...and I thought the antis had the market cornered on conspiracy theories.
No conspiracy theory. Read her papers in Science journal. They are either co-authored with Krkoseck ,Volpe, Routledge or Ford or peer reviewed by them. No secret.
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I completely agree. In my opinion, salmon farming isn't worth the risk. There are other bigger issues surrounding the decline of wild stocks, but just because farming isn't at the top of that list it shouldn't be ignored. Further to that it is one of the most easily "corrected" issues.
It's clear that many of the pro-aquaculture group are passionate about wild salmon, I think if I read between the lines, they even accept that farming doesn't come without consequence to the environment in which it operates? Disregarding the extremist groups on both sides, it appears that it is the difference in opinion on how damaged the wild stocks are already that separates the "pros" from the "antis". Do supporters of fish farms feel that the farms take pressure off demand for commercial harvest (a good thing) and if we were to lose them the increase in harvesting of wild stocks to meet demand would be worse than the possible negative effects of keeping them? I'm just trying to understand what makes farms worth keeping and I don't view "jobs", "money", "BC's global position in the salmon farming olympics" or "this paper that discredits that paper" as good reasons. They are great catalysts to keep a debate going, but that doesn't help sustain wild fish! So to those people, like Dave, who appear to be above anything pro-wild salmon, I have a question. If the outlook for wild fish is so bleak and the potential for damaging those stocks further through farming exists, what greater threat are the farms offsetting that it isn't worth removing them all together? Jared
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I completely agree. In my opinion, salmon farming isn't worth the risk. There are other bigger issues surrounding the decline of wild stocks, but just because farming isn't at the top of that list it shouldn't be ignored. Further to that it is one of the most easily "corrected" issues.
It's clear that many of the pro-aquaculture group are passionate about wild salmon, I think if I read between the lines, they even accept that farming doesn't come without consequence to the environment in which it operates? Disregarding the extremist groups on both sides, it appears that it is the difference in opinion on how damaged the wild stocks are already that separates the "pros" from the "antis". Do supporters of fish farms feel that the farms take pressure off demand for commercial harvest (a good thing) and if we were to lose them the increase in harvesting of wild stocks to meet demand would be worse than the possible negative effects of keeping them? I'm just trying to understand what makes farms worth keeping and I don't view "jobs", "money", "BC's global position in the salmon farming olympics" or "this paper that discredits that paper" as good reasons. They are great catalysts to keep a debate going, but that doesn't help sustain wild fish! So to those people, like Dave, who appear to be above anything pro-wild salmon, I have a question. If the outlook for wild fish is so bleak and the potential for damaging those stocks further through farming exists, what greater threat are the farms offsetting that it isn't worth removing them all together? Jared
Farmed salmon go into the sea lice free. The lice they get are from wild salmon, herring and stickleback. Those fish already have naturally occuring sea lice populations. They existed long before farmed salmon were introduced.
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Farmed salmon go into the sea lice free. The lice they get are from wild salmon, herring and stickleback. Those fish already have naturally occuring sea lice populations. They existed long before farmed salmon were introduced.
So did many of the diseases, but the captivity of the farmed salmon in high densities in open net pens negates the natural order where the salmon leave the near shore and head out to the open sea. The Farmed salmon have no where to go so the sea lice have a steady host supply and they multiply, as do many of the "natural" diseases. It is this amplification that has many concerned for the impact on the salmon when they are migrating past the farms. I want to believe you when you say there is no risk to the wild salmon swimming past these farms, but I do not.
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So did many of the diseases, but the captivity of the farmed salmon in high densities in open net pens negates the natural order where the salmon leave the near shore and head out to the open sea. The Farmed salmon have no where to go so the sea lice have a steady host supply and they multiply, as do many of the "natural" diseases. It is this amplification that has many concerned for the impact on the salmon when they are migrating past the farms. I want to believe you when you say there is no risk to the wild salmon swimming past these farms, but I do not.
You will need to define what "high densities" mean. If you look into what they do in BC, densities are monitored and maintained a certain level to reduce strees (15kg/cubic metres or less).
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You will need to define what "high densities" mean. If you look into what they do in BC, densities are monitored and maintained a certain level to reduce stress (15kg/cubic metres or less).
Thanks Steve. Glad someone knows what they are talking about. The truth is in the 1970's a naturally occurring sockeye die off occured due to high sea lice levels due to the salinity of the ocean water. This happened in the Albernie Inlet and it happened long before fish farms were even here in BC. To blame fish farms everytime something occurs just because one happens to be in the vicinity is ludicrous and very poor science. Very Alex Morton.
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...and I thought the antis had the market cornered on conspiracy theories.
Read http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/170964-1979.pdf taken from Sounder, Volume V11, Number 1 dated Sept/Oct 1979
Scroll down the page till you come to an article entitled " Catch 22 " The mixed fishery. As early as 1959 the DFO studied Mainland pinks and came to the conclusion regarding their natural run fluctuations they could be "fished" to extinction. Nothing to do with sea lice or salmon farms. And the truth is they still fluctuate from even to odd years as they have done for decades in spite of your fish farm sea lice conspiracy theory. There was a ribbon boundary in place for mainland humps for years. Are you going to call this fact a conspiracy theory too ? It was written before Morton and her cronies appointed themselves experts on the Broughton and Mainland pinks. I trust the DFO on this one thanks.
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Thanks Steve. Glad someone knows what they are talking about.
Got it Annie. I see why some people on other boards might have become hostile towards you. You have, in the short time you have been here, reduced your responses to suggesting that if I do not agree with you, then I do not know what I am talking about. We're done. Good-bye Ms P. You can can go back to your mud slinging on the other boards.
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Sandman,
Please before you bail on us or anne, could define, in your words, high densities. Also, you stated that a farm negates the natural order
. Is this the basis of your position on salmon farming in BC?
Anne brings a whole new version to the discussion and has posted some factual items that are interesting. Don't you think your jumping the gun a bit on choosing to be the one insulted by her statement. Your choice I guess, but I respect your input in the discussion. While I do not agree with your overall perspective on the issue I am always interested in your response.
Myself being a salmon farmer can relate to AnneP with regard to the frustration about the misinformation that is out there. I too have been insulted on the boards blatantly for my bad spelling and the odd mistake/misunderstanding and more. All items that have nothing to do with facts.
I just do not think that anne said some people or one person here doesn't know what they are talking about. She said she is glad that steve knows what he is talking about and to date he has demonstrated that statement exceptionally. I think your jumping the gun. Please lets discuss details and not bail on non factual circumstances.
Where are these other boards your talking about?
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From my point of view, Annie is welcome here as a civil contributor and adds to the debate. Her comment referenced Steve's response regarding fish density on the farms and the vagueness and lack of definition in it's use as a rhetorical term. It doesn't appear to me to be an insult addressed at you, just an appreciation that someone thought it important enough to be specific about what "high density" mean. No need to deal in nebulous and prejudicial rhetoric if you've got actual, meaningful facts at hand.
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Hey Sandman, I just wanted to know what you meant by high densities - that's all. I typically ask that type of a question when someone says either too high or too low (my father used to say "How long is a piece of string"}. I just found the density value on BC Salmon Facts, so it is not as if I am a fish farmer and knew this all along. If you think it's bogus then by all means express it. I didn't mean any ill will by the question or make it seem like I was some aquaculturalist. I actually appreciate your coherent responses even if I do not agree with them all the time. Peace.
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Got it Annie. I see why some people on other boards might have become hostile towards you. You have, in the short time you have been here, reduced your responses to suggesting that if I do not agree with you, then I do not know what I am talking about. We're done. Good-bye Ms P. You can can go back to your mud slinging on the other boards.
Actually I didn't insult you personally in the least. I commented to Steve I was glad someone understands densities on the farms better than some others do. Hardly an insult but I have to say you have been pretty hostile toward me from the outset. We disagree nothing wrong in that. Forums and blogs are a place for constructive dialogue. The fact everyone doesn't agree and share their reasons why is what the whole idea is about. As for mudslinging well I think your last comment directed to me would cover that.
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Got it Annie. I see why some people on other boards might have become hostile towards you. You have, in the short time you have been here, reduced your responses to suggesting that if I do not agree with you, then I do not know what I am talking about. We're done. Good-bye Ms P. You can can go back to your mud slinging on the other boards.
This sounds more like AF than sandman. Just sayin. Nothing more.
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Actually I didn't insult you personally in the least.
Actually Sandman is right in this case. You can disagree with other participants, but you shouldn't suggest that they are not knowledgable and implying that they are not qualified in this discussion. If the same comment was made in a scientific peer discussion session, you'd be kicked out of there in no time because it is not professional.
If Sandman has made comments that appear to be insulting to you, you should always point them out and let us take care of it. From what I've read so far, I haven't seen any.
My recommendation to all participants in this discussion is to focus on the actual issue and refrain from commenting on each other's qualifications, ethics, etc.
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Actually Sandman is right in this case. You can disagree with other participants, but you shouldn't suggest that they are not knowledgeable and implying that they are not qualified in this discussion. If the same comment was made in a scientific peer discussion session, you'd be kicked out of there in no time because it is not professional.
If Sandman has made comments that appear to be insulting to you, you should always point them out and let us take care of it. From what I've read so far, I haven't seen any.
My recommendation to all participants in this discussion is to focus on the actual issue and refrain from commenting on each other's qualifications, ethics, etc.
My response was to Steve not Sandman and I said I was glad someone knew about the levels of actual density on fish farms. I fail to see it as an insult to anyone or a suggestion they don't know what they are talking about. I simply acknowledged that Steve knew about farm densities. I didn't suggest sandman was insulting either but I have sensed a hostility since his first comment directed at me. If he feels I insulted him then certainly I apologize. Perhaps my wording could have been clearer as to what I actually meant.
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Intentional or unintentional, I'm just seeing it from Sandman's POV and it does come off as a bit insulting because you two have been exchanging a dialogue, then you told another individual that you're glad someone (he) knows what they are talking about, which Sandman would interpret as that you think he does not know what he is talking about. I'm not blaming anyone here, but some clarification was needed to ease the tension if this discussion is to remain open. Carry on, I'm back to reading. :)
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Intentional or unintentional, I'm just seeing it from Sandman's POV and it does come off as a bit insulting because you two have been exchanging a dialogue, then you told another individual that you're glad someone (he) knows what they are talking about, which Sandman would interpret as that you think he does not know what he is talking about. I'm not blaming anyone here, but some clarification was needed to ease the tension if this discussion is to remain open. Carry on, I'm back to reading. :)
Might I point out that I as the originator of the petition we were originally commenting on could say I find the bracketed (gag order request) in the above title insulting ? I never initiated a petition to gain a gag order, I originated a petition to ask CIFA and the Feds to put a stop to the deliberate violation of bio security measures by Morton put in place to prevent the spread of IHN
There is a lot of difference between a gag order to suppress speech and a restraining order forcing an individual to abide by government placed quarantine for disease.
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Hey Sandman, I just wanted to know what you meant by high densities - that's all. I typically ask that type of a question when someone says either too high or too low (my father used to say "How long is a piece of string"}. I just found the density value on BC Salmon Facts, so it is not as if I am a fish farmer and knew this all along. If you think it's bogus then by all means express it. I didn't mean any ill will by the question or make it seem like I was some aquaculturalist. I actually appreciate your coherent responses even if I do not agree with them all the time. Peace.
Actually Steve farm densities are highly regulated. I know the anti crowd don't believe that fish farms adhere to strict regulations but that doesn't alter the fact they have to. A lot has changed since early days when fish farming was in the early stages of development. Farms are only allowed to stock a certain amount of fish at any given time.
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Might I point out that I as the originator of the petition we were originally commenting on could say I find the bracketed (gag order request) in the above title insulting ? I never initiated a petition to gain a gag order, I originated a petition to ask CIFA and the Feds to put a stop to the deliberate violation of bio security measures by Morton put in place to prevent the spread of IHN
There is a lot of difference between a gag order to suppress speech and a restraining order forcing an individual to abide by government placed quarantine for disease.
I've posted the actually wording of your petition here: "Morton has continued with a high profile agenda to smear aquaculture in BC world wide. She continually makes false and misleading statements about the industry . She deliberately violated bio security measures in place to prevent the spread of IHN. She places false and misleading information on the internet with the intent of causing harm to a viable BC industry that is directly and indirectly responsible for 6000 jobs."
I don't think the government needs your petition to motivate them to restrain Morton, if she was trespassing. There are likely laws that already cover that, and police that reinforce those laws. If you are asking the government to restrain Morton, why would you go on about her making false and misleading statements? What do her statements have to do with her alleged trespassing?
I think the thread heading quite accurately describes the intent of your petition.....
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I've posted the actually wording of your petition here: "Morton has continued with a high profile agenda to smear aquaculture in BC world wide. She continually makes false and misleading statements about the industry . She deliberately violated bio security measures in place to prevent the spread of IHN. She places false and misleading information on the internet with the intent of causing harm to a viable BC industry that is directly and indirectly responsible for 6000 jobs."
I don't think the government needs your petition to motivate them to restrain Morton, if she was trespassing. There are likely laws that already cover that, and police that reinforce those laws. If you are asking the government to restrain Morton, why would you go on about her making false and misleading statements? What do her statements have to do with her alleged trespassing?
I think the thread heading quite accurately describes the intent of your petition.....
The petition title is " Restrain Alexandra Morton from trespass bio security & quarantine measures". The site requires you post some history about the individual and why you are posting the petition. Not everyone knows who she is and what her agenda is. Ms Morton was in fact escorted from a quarantine site by the RCMP and CFIA. She recklessly crossed a quarantine line and could easily have been the cause of spread of IHN. Do you think it's okay for anyone to cross any quarantine area illegally and risk spreading disease bio security measures have been placed to prevent spread of ?
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The petition title is " Restrain Alexandra Morton from trespass bio security & quarantine measures". The site requires you post some history about the individual and why you are posting the petition. Not everyone knows who she is and what her agenda is. Ms Morton was in fact escorted from a quarantine site by the RCMP and CFIA. She recklessly crossed a quarantine line and could easily have been the cause of spread of IHN. Do you think it's okay for anyone to cross any quarantine area illegally and risk spreading disease bio security measures have been placed to prevent spread of ?
Sounds like hearsay and inuendo..... Show me some proof Annie!
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Sounds like hearsay and inuendo..... Show me some proof Annie!
It was on the news on TV and in local papers. It was on Mainstream's website. Sorry it did happen. Morton denies doing it on her blog. She claims there was no bio security present yet the measures were put in place by CFIA and Mainstream immediately the IHN was reported. As for her posting falsehoods online a good example is on her Typepad blog site. She has a picture of the MV Orca Chief with a paragraph claiming the vessel isn't licensed properly. The vessel in fact isn't a commercial fishing packer and as such doesn't require a D license. What it does legally require is a separate permit for every single fish move it makes because it has a different classification than a D license commercial salmon packer..
Cut and pasted from Morton`s blog.........Fish farming is a massive scale industry. This boat is pumping Atlantic salmon smolts into a pen in the Pacific, in a location in Tribune Channel that government promised us there would never be salmon farms (see MAPS section) Strangely this vessel has no license visibly displayed. All vessels transporting salmon, or any species of fish should have a license displayed according to the laws of Canada.
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Sounds like hearsay and inuendo..... Show me some proof Annie!
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2012/06/26/mortons-latest-error-dishonesty-or-ignorance/ Morton recently took a picture off Wikepedia and posted it on her blog claiming it was kudoa. It wasn't nor was it even her picture. She was goaded on Twitter till she removed it from her blog and replaced it. ::)
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Sounds like hearsay and inuendo..... Show me some proof Annie!
http://www.mainstreamcanada.ca/irresponsible-anti-salmon-farming-activists-continue-put-farms-jobs-risk
http://www.mainstreamcanada.ca/violating-biosecurity-puts-farms-and-jobs-risk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwmsa3gK88&list=UUgPPbApE33xH3abTum60yOw&index=6&feature=plcp Morton pictured standing on dock next to transport vessel.
Proof enough or do you need more ?
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It was on the news on TV and in local papers. It was on Mainstream's website. Sorry it did happen. Morton denies doing it on her blog. She claims there was no bio security present yet the measures were put in place by CFIA and Mainstream immediately the IHN was reported. As for her posting falsehoods online a good example is on her Typepad blog site. She has a picture of the MV Orca Chief with a paragraph claiming the vessel isn't licensed properly. The vessel in fact isn't a commercial fishing packer and as such doesn't require a D license. What it does legally require is a separate permit for every single fish move it makes because it has a different classification than a D license commercial salmon packer..
Cut and pasted from Morton`s blog.........Fish farming is a massive scale industry. This boat is pumping Atlantic salmon smolts into a pen in the Pacific, in a location in Tribune Channel that government promised us there would never be salmon farms (see MAPS section) Strangely this vessel has no license visibly displayed. All vessels transporting salmon, or any species of fish should have a license displayed according to the laws of Canada.
Canada is quite a progressive country..... Unlike some countries where they punish you without a court trial, in Canada everyone is assumed to be innocent until they are proven to be guilty by either a judge or a jury....
The proof we're looking for is something that shows Morton was charged and convicted for trespassing.
You must think we're pretty naive to offer some pro fish farm articles as proof that Morton did anything wrong!
Even a CTV news cast telling us how a fish farm has accused Morton of doing something wrong does not prove she has been either charged or convicted. ???
Did you catch the fish farm spokesman's statement where she said that in the presence of the RCMP, Morton continued to breach a quarantined area? If that was the case then you should be petitioning the RCMP to arrest Morton rather than trying to petition the government to restrain and gag her. However my understanding of the RCMP is that they are well trained to know and understand the laws of the land and ensure that they are enforced. Just the fact that they didn't charge anyone should suggest to you that no illegal act took place.....
3 posts and all I'm getting is more hearsay and innuendo. ::) ::)
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Something to hide?
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Bill+restricting+communication+about+farm+disease+outbreaks+aimed+officials+minister+says/6687189/story.html
And tell me why this business is good for BC by writing how the records are so wonderful, if you would please. The records of these companies make Enbridge look like Greenpeace.
http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/solutions/industry-reform/about-the-industry/
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Annie or whatever her name is likes to drag everyone else's family member into the discussion because that is her dubious nature. She isn't making any points in my book. I noticed she was not even open about her relationship to Marine harvest on this site till I let the cat out of the bag. You go away non fisher Annie. You go away and not come back. Your only comments end up trying to drag someone through the mud. I don't mind saying that neither. Your like some of the other people on here who comment pro fish farm but never post about anything else. All very biased. Marine harvest employees need assistance program.
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Annie or whatever her name is likes to drag everyone else's family member into the discussion because that is her dubious nature. She isn't making any points in my book. I noticed she was not even open about her relationship to Marine harvest on this site till I let the cat out of the bag. You go away non fisher Annie. You go away and not come back. Your only comments end up trying to drag someone through the mud. I don't mind saying that neither. Your like some of the other people on here who comment pro fish farm but never post about anything else. All very biased. Marine harvest employees need assistance program.
Public Affairs Bureau TB? ;D
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Something to hide?
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Bill+restricting+communication+about+farm+disease+outbreaks+aimed+officials+minister+says/6687189/story.html
And tell me why this business is good for BC by writing how the records are so wonderful, if you would please. The records of these companies make Enbridge look like Greenpeace.
http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/solutions/industry-reform/about-the-industry/
Salmon farms are regulated by the Federal government – not the provincial government (following a court decision with strong support from Ms Morton). Reporting and sampling is done by the feds, so Bill 37 (the one I think you are referring to) would have no effect on reporting by salmon farms in BC. Reportable viruses like IHN are managed by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.
The last link kind of demonstrates how tightly regulated the industry is here and how it has been enforced (as compared to other places). I am sure you can find many records of non-compliance and charges from other industries in BC also. Many industries have skeletons in their closets, such as land developers, municipalities and members of the general public charged under Section 35 of the Fisheries Act or even provincial legislation. Lastly, the link makes a big issue about IHN, but when you actually learn about IHN you will realize that it is a potential problem of fish farm and fish hatcheries so it is in their best interests to identify it and prevent it.
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Canada is quite a progressive country..... Unlike some countries where they punish you without a court trial, in Canada everyone is assumed to be innocent until they are proven to be guilty by either a judge or a jury....
The proof we're looking for is something that shows Morton was charged and convicted for trespassing.
You must think we're pretty naive to offer some pro fish farm articles as proof that Morton did anything wrong!
Even a CTV news cast telling us how a fish farm has accused Morton of doing something wrong does not prove she has been either charged or convicted. ???
Did you catch the fish farm spokesman's statement where she said that in the presence of the RCMP, Morton continued to breach a quarantined area? If that was the case then you should be petitioning the RCMP to arrest Morton rather than trying to petition the government to restrain and gag her. However my understanding of the RCMP is that they are well trained to know and understand the laws of the land and ensure that they are enforced. Just the fact that they didn't charge anyone should suggest to you that no illegal act took place.....
3 posts and all I'm getting is more hearsay and innuendo. ::) ::)
Nobody has suggested she was charged and convicted, just that she was there and that is plainly obvious from the news footage. The more relevant question is why?
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Annie or whatever her name is likes to drag everyone else's family member into the discussion because that is her dubious nature. She isn't making any points in my book. I noticed she was not even open about her relationship to Marine harvest on this site till I let the cat out of the bag. You go away non fisher Annie. You go away and not come back. Your only comments end up trying to drag someone through the mud. I don't mind saying that neither. Your like some of the other people on here who comment pro fish farm but never post about anything else. All very biased. Marine harvest employees need assistance program.
I guess it is a disappointment to you that you are not the moderator or webmaster for the site. I feel for you. Until that time arrives people will continue commenting how they want and let Rodney and the rest of the moderators decide which is fair and which is not. You might want to start your own blog where you can control what is posted (like Ms Morton's site). That way you will feel more secure from people like me and you won't have to put up issues that are too difficult to deal with.
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I guess it is a disappointment to you that you are not the moderator or webmaster for the site. I feel for you. Until that time arrives people will continue commenting how they want and let Rodney and the rest of the moderators decide which is fair and which is not. You might want to start your own blog where you can control what is posted (like Ms Morton's site). That way you will feel more secure from people like me and you won't have to put up issues that are too difficult to deal with.
I had forgotten who the other pro SLICE person was. Thanks for stepping up to the plate ( of dirty fish dinner). :)
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Hey Sandman, I just wanted to know what you meant by high densities - that's all. I typically ask that type of a question when someone says either too high or too low (my father used to say "How long is a piece of string"}. I just found the density value on BC Salmon Facts, so it is not as if I am a fish farmer and knew this all along. If you think it's bogus then by all means express it. I didn't mean any ill will by the question or make it seem like I was some aquaculturalist. I actually appreciate your coherent responses even if I do not agree with them all the time. Peace.
No worries Steve, I was not insulted by your request for clarification, but just to clarify, I did not say the densities were "too high", I just said they were high. 15kg/m3 is the maximum stocking density recommended by the UK's Farm Animal Welfare Council in 1996, and which is higher than densities (10kg/m3) identified by groups like CIWF and WSPA as ideal to ensure salmon welfare. Again, I did not saying that BC Salmon farm densities were "too" high, I was simply pointing out that these densities (15kg/m3) are higher than the natural densities salmon would experience in the wild while they are swimming freely in the ocean, compounded by the fact that they are not able to migrate thousands of kilometers as they would in the wild, cannot swim at high speeds as they would in the wild, etc. I am well aware of the studies regarding stocking densities like that of James Turnbull et al, who had identified 22kg/m3 as a threshold beyond which welfare problems are more likely to occur, and which we discussed at length on another thread. While they did not recommend a "single threshold stocking density that will ensure the welfare of the fish concerned," arguing that fish welfare, like so many other things, is dependent on many factors, they did, none the less, conclude that stocking density can have a negative effect on fish welfare, especially over their 22kg/m3 threshold. It should also be noted that Turnbull et al., did conclude that the 15kg/m3 maximum recommended by the FAWC was not supported by their findings, as a single threshold was "not the most effective way to ensure the welfare of farmed fish."
Sandman,
Please before you bail on us or anne, could define, in your words, high densities. Also, you stated that a farm "negates the natural order of things." Is this the basis of your position on salmon farming in BC?
The answer to the first question is above, as for the second question (about the above quoted statement which is also elaborated upon above), I believe this has been answered already in my many comments on many threads on this topic. However, in case it is not yet clear, no, my objection to farming Atlantic Salmon in open net pens in BC is not based on my claim that farms negate the natural order of things, although I am not sure how you could have thought that it was. Selective memory loss? Or just stirring the pot? I will say, however, that many of my objections do stem from the fact that the industry has to deal with this fact within an environmentally sensitive area. Remember the days when farmers could plow (and apply fertilizers and pesticides) right up to the stream bank? Could you imagine a pig farmer today dumping manure into the river? I know, an unfair comparison, but you get the idea. My position on salmon farming stems from the reality that the documented impacts of salmon farming and the remaining uncertainties surrounding its ecological risk means that decisions are being
based on uncertain or inadequate information. All I keep hearing from farm supporters is: "That was true before, back when we didn't know better, but now we know better and are doing it right." Well, what is the next learning curve going to bring? The risks are too great.
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Salmon farms are regulated by the Federal government – not the provincial government (following a court decision with strong support from Ms Morton). Reporting and sampling is done by the feds, so Bill 37 (the one I think you are referring to) would have no effect on reporting by salmon farms in BC. Reportable viruses like IHN are managed by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.
yeah. And what did the feds just do to environmental protection? they put the fox in charge of the hen house.
The last link kind of demonstrates how tightly regulated the industry is here and how it has been enforced (as compared to other places). I am sure you can find many records of non-compliance and charges from other industries in BC also. Many industries have skeletons in their closets, such as land developers, municipalities and members of the general public charged under Section 35 of the Fisheries Act or even provincial legislation. Lastly, the link makes a big issue about IHN, but when you actually learn about IHN you will realize that it is a potential problem of fish farm and fish hatcheries so it is in their best interests to identify it and prevent it.
Really? But that was just what was reported and caught,so one is left to wonder what hasn't been caught. I wonder if the criminal that is busted is usually the first offense or have they done things they haven't been caught for? And "other industries" is a nice subterfuge, but the topic is fish farms, not developers municipalities or members of the public. ::)
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Canada is quite a progressive country..... Unlike some countries where they punish you without a court trial, in Canada everyone is assumed to be innocent until they are proven to be guilty by either a judge or a jury....
The proof we're looking for is something that shows Morton was charged and convicted for trespassing.
You must think we're pretty naive to offer some pro fish farm articles as proof that Morton did anything wrong!
Even a CTV news cast telling us how a fish farm has accused Morton of doing something wrong does not prove she has been either charged or convicted. ???
Did you catch the fish farm spokesman's statement where she said that in the presence of the RCMP, Morton continued to breach a quarantined area? If that was the case then you should be petitioning the RCMP to arrest Morton rather than trying to petition the government to restrain and gag her. However my understanding of the RCMP is that they are well trained to know and understand the laws of the land and ensure that they are enforced. Just the fact that they didn't charge anyone should suggest to you that no illegal act took place.....
3 posts and all I'm getting is more hearsay and innuendo. ::) ::) Hearsay and innuendo huh ? Okay then I guess it's ditto for the information Morton regularly puts out about disease etc. There is no confirmation that ISA was ever found in her samples on either the OIE website or the CFIA website. Nor on BC government website regarding fish health. There are though numerous reports both in Canada and the US that her results were never found or confirmed. Are you disputing that she posted a false picture of kudoa on her website ? because that is a proven fact. She has since removed it. Are you disputing she claims the Orca Chief isn't properly licensed even though the claim is highly visible on her Type-pad blog ? I fully expected your response to my post. You want to believe anything and everything some activist claims but you will not believe the truth. No she wasn't charged but she should have been. That's what my petition was asking was for the government and CFIA to enforce their own quarantine.
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Annie or whatever her name is likes to drag everyone else's family member into the discussion because that is her dubious nature. She isn't making any points in my book. I noticed she was not even open about her relationship to Marine harvest on this site till I let the cat out of the bag. You go away non fisher Annie. You go away and not come back. Your only comments end up trying to drag someone through the mud. I don't mind saying that neither. Your like some of the other people on here who comment pro fish farm but never post about anything else. All very biased. Marine harvest employees need assistance program.
It matters not who my husband works for. I have never made any secret that my husband is a Marine Harvest Employee nor did I attempt to hide the fact. Fail to see your reasoning on that one. In fact I'd say I've been pretty forthcoming about the fact and have answered questions put to me honestly and without reserve knowing full well the negative response I will get.
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Are you aware that fish health records are available online ? I know most anti farm supporters choose not to believe them but doesn't alter the fact they are online available to the public. Mainstream reported the IHN outbreak immediately it became suspect and made every effort to comply with CFIA. They reported the outbreak publicly and made no effort to hide it. Morton has made countless claims of disease in several species of salmon and trout yet there is no confirmation of that through the OIE website nor did CFIA or the DFO find ISA or one or two of the others she claims to have confirmed yet the anti crowd will believe anything and everything she says. I find that strange. She insinuates that naturally occuring diseases in wild salmon are in fact the fault of farmed salmon when it has been reported they originated with wild. Farms have to be diligent .
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The answer to the first question is above, as for the second question (about the above quoted statement which is also elaborated upon above), I believe this has been answered already in my many comments on many threads on this topic. However, in case it is not yet clear, no, my objection to farming Atlantic Salmon in open net pens in BC is not based on my claim that farms negate the natural order of things, although I am not sure how you could have thought that it was. Selective memory loss? Or just stirring the pot? I will say, however, that many of my objections do stem from the fact that the industry has to deal with this fact within an environmentally sensitive area. Remember the days when farmers could plow (and apply fertilizers and pesticides) right up to the stream bank? Could you imagine a pig farmer today dumping manure into the river? I know, an unfair comparison, but you get the idea. My position on salmon farming stems from the reality that the documented impacts of salmon farming and the remaining uncertainties surrounding its ecological risk means that decisions are being
based on uncertain or inadequate information. All I keep hearing from farm supporters is: "That was true before, back when we didn't know better, but now we know better and are doing it right." Well, what is the next learning curve going to bring? The risks are too great.
Thanks for your reply SM. In your post you say "salmon farm densities negates the natural order". I am just trying to narrow down your position on the issue. No I am not dumb(selective memory loss), neither am I an idiot(stirring the pot). Thanks for all the questions. I guess I am a special case and for a fellow who follows this thread continuously, you will know that there is some repeating and its difficult to avoid. Look How many time has AF brought up PCPs over the years. (IT's just about due again, af.) He is the repeater here while most of us want to move on and get with the current so to speak. YOur post suggest you have concern about the bottom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZdxcgL8Kz4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZdxcgL8Kz4)
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Well it's nice to know that your not biased because your husband makes a living off the dirty fish. But I for one am a little sceptical about that claim. Also this "anti farmer" thing is so way out there. Us and them in battle over our right to raise salmon as cheaply and with potentially serious consequences to other marine life.
Nothing wrong with farming salmon. But you seem to take offence to the Coho that were raised in a differant manner than the unsafe way that your bread and butter is coming from. Really who are you trying to kid.
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It was thanks to Alexandra Morton's court case that the management of aquaculture was taken away from the provincial governments and handed to the DFO. If you have issues with that perhaps you could direct your comments to her and ask her why she thought the feds could do a better job than the provincial regulators ? Ms Morton has even suggested on her supporters web site she should run the DFO. That's a scary thought.
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No she wasn't charged ........
I appreciate when we can get to the truth.
As far as enforcing the "quarantine".... what do the feedlots do to ensure that none of the diseases and viruses they are propagating get outside of the "quarantine zone"? It seems pointless to put a "quarantine zone" in place and then allow all the diseases and viruses easy access to escape into the surrounding ocean.
Based on their inability to contain these diseases and viruses, what is the "quarantine" actually accomplishing? Perhaps that's why Morton was never arrested , because they would have had to arrest everyone else within miles of the farm. ???
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The quarantine does seem odd but when people are willing to infect farms on purpose I feel that the best thing to do is just keep everybody away.
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Well it's nice to know that your not biased because your husband makes a living off the dirty fish. But I for one am a little sceptical about that claim. Also this "anti farmer" thing is so way out there. Us and them in battle over our right to raise salmon as cheaply and with potentially serious consequences to other marine life.
Nothing wrong with farming salmon. But you seem to take offence to the Coho that were raised in a differant manner than the unsafe way that your bread and butter is coming from. Really who are you trying to kid.
I merely stated something to the effect that the closed containment coho I saw in Saveon last week wasn't too attractive. I regret not taking a photo with my camera phone as they were not too healthy looking. The small ones would have weighed less than two pounds before being harvested. And extremely freezer burnt. Some of the problem lies within the management of stores still trying to flog a product long after it has visibly lost it's appeal and that goes for wild or farmed. As for dirty fish that is taking your bias a little too far. What never seems to occur to people opposed to salmon farming is that when someone like myself speaks it is perhaps with more knowledge about the industry than those opposed to it have. From experience if you get my meaning because my husband is employed in the industry. There is a lot of misconception and misinformation about how farmed salmon is raised. I personally have no problem if an individual simply doesn't like the idea of farming fish . I don't often eat eggs myself. Just a personal dislike from childhood growing up on a farm with a rooster ands seeing blood in the eggs because they were fertile. But that doesn't mean I think no one else should eat them either or that they are bad for you or shouldn't have farmers growing chickens or producing eggs. Nor because of Avian flu outbreaks do I believe chicken farming should be banned and all chicken farms removed immediately. When those pro farm speak they speak with personal knowledge of the industry in most cases unlike the anti crowd who merely believe and repeat everything they hear.
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I appreciate when we can get to the truth.
As far as enforcing the "quarantine".... what do the feedlots do to ensure that none of the diseases and viruses they are propagating get outside of the "quarantine zone"? It seems pointless to put a "quarantine zone" in place and then allow all the diseases and viruses easy access to escape into the surrounding ocean.
Based on their inability to contain these diseases and viruses, what is the "quarantine" actually accomplishing? Perhaps that's why Morton was never arrested , because they would have had to arrest everyone else within miles of the farm. ???
You seem to have lost sight of the fact IHN occurs naturally in wild Pacific sockeye For instance-http://redoubtreporter.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/virus-strikes-salmon-fry-%e2%80%94-hatchery-loses-sockeye-stock-to-ihn/
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I appreciate when we can get to the truth.
As far as enforcing the "quarantine".... what do the feedlots do to ensure that none of the diseases and viruses they are propagating get outside of the "quarantine zone"? It seems pointless to put a "quarantine zone" in place and then allow all the diseases and viruses easy access to escape into the surrounding ocean.
Based on their inability to contain these diseases and viruses, what is the "quarantine" actually accomplishing? Perhaps that's why Morton was never arrested , because they would have had to arrest everyone else within miles of the farm. ???
As someone who has asked me for proof of my claims perhaps you can provide us with the proof farms were/are propagating diseases outside what was a quarantine zone ? Since the disease was contained and the diseased fish including many healthy ones were in fact destroyed and the farm fallowed and all equipment disinfected etc there has been no further spread of disease. I might add since the disease also appeared south of the border around the same time it is not unlikely the IHN originated in wild salmon returning to Washington state. There isn't much salmon farmers can do to quarantine wild salmon carrying IHN is there ? As for what do farms do to try and insure disease doesn't get outside the quarantine zone. Answer was obvious I thought. They try to prevent activists like Morton from violating the quarantine zone and perhaps deliberatly spreading the disease.
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As someone who has asked me for proof of my claims perhaps you can provide us with the proof farms were/are propagating diseases outside what was a quarantine zone ? Since the disease was contained and the diseased fish including many healthy ones were in fact destroyed and the farm fallowed and all equipment disinfected etc there has been no further spread of disease. I might add since the disease also appeared south of the border around the same time it is not unlikely the IHN originated in wild salmon returning to Washington state. There isn't much salmon farmers can do to quarantine wild salmon carrying IHN is there ? As for what do farms do to try and insure disease doesn't get outside the quarantine zone. Answer was obvious I thought. They try to prevent activists like Morton from violating the quarantine zone and perhaps deliberatly spreading the disease.
Let's agree on one thing, that the wild fish were in the ocean first. I get tired of hearing that the wild salmon are responsible for the diseases in the feedlots. I don't hear land based farmers complaining about how naturally occurring wild life is making their farm animals sick.
If the feedlots are convinced that wild salmon are making their feedlots sick, get the pens out of the ocean and on dry land! If we are to believe the feedlots, the only solution they are offering to disease control in their pens is to get rid of the wild salmon.....
Doesn't it seem rather hypocritical of the feedlots to complain when they feel a "quarantine zone" is breached, yet they offer no assurance that their diseases are being quarantined? ::) ::)
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Salmon farmers are not complaining about the origin of disease. They realize it is the way it is as it is in most forms of husbandry. Even if there were no wild salmon the farmers would still be subject to a equal variety of pathogens. No salmon farming company or organization ever stated that the best way to prevent disease would be to get rid of wild salmon. That is just ridiculous. If I am wrong then please post the source of your comment. If you do not post a source of that comment then admit you just made it up.
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Let's agree on one thing, that the wild fish were in the ocean first. I get tired of hearing that the wild salmon are responsible for the diseases in the feedlots. I don't hear land based farmers complaining about how naturally occurring wild life is making their farm animals sick.
If the feedlots are convinced that wild salmon are making their feedlots sick, get the pens out of the ocean and on dry land! If we are to believe the feedlots, the only solution they are offering to disease control in their pens is to get rid of the wild salmon.....
Doesn't it seem rather hypocritical of the feedlots to complain when they feel a "quarantine zone" is breached, yet they offer no assurance that their diseases are being quarantined? ::) ::)
Apparently you aren't aware of how much Marine Harvest Canada actually does to contribute to enhancement of wild salmon and provide assistance to local hatcheries . MHI regularly donates used hatchery equipment to local small hatcheries, they donated a dock for Roberts Lake and have beach clean up I believe twice a year. To claim they want wild salmon out of the ocean is just plain wrong. They also regularly have BBQ's with the funds raised going to local causes and salmon enhancement groups.
http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/people_donations.php
Supporting community organizations is something that Marine Harvest Canada takes pride in. Marine Harvest Canada believes in helping build strong communities. We support many community organizations including service groups, sports teams, social programs and salmon enhancement programs.
Watch for Marine Harvest Canada supporting community organizations in 2012.
[download document]
1st Willow Point Scouts
2011 Applied Biology Conference
2011 Sponsorship and Donations Summary
2011 World Senior Badminton Tournament
21st Century Communication Leadership
BC Cancer Foundation
BC Coalition of Motorcyclists
BC Firefighters Burn Fund
Beaver Harbour Community Fireworks
Bike to Work Week
Cameron's Cause for Kids Society
Campbell River Adult Care Society
Campbell River Beacon Club
Campbell River Christian School
Campbell River Community Foundation
Campbell River Curling Club
Campbell River Daybreak Rotary
Campbell River Dragon Boat Society
Campbell River Family Services Society
Campbell River Fish and Wildlife Association
Campbell River Food Bank
Campbell River Garden Club
Campbell River Golden Wings Soccer
Campbell River Head Injury Support Society
Campbell River Hospice Society
Campbell River Hospital Foundation
Campbell River Judo Club
Campbell River Kings Show & Shine
Campbell River Kinsmen Club
Campbell River Minor Baseball
Campbell River Minor Hockey Association
Campbell River Noon Rotary
Campbell River Perinatal Society
Campbell River Pioneer Hockey League
Campbell River Relay for Life
Campbell River Rotary Club
Campbell River Salmon Foundation
Campbell River Scouts
Campbell River Search and Rescue
Campbell River Slow Pitch
Campbell River SPCA
Campbell River Storm Hockey Club
Campbell River Swim Club
Campbell River Tyee Club
Campbell River Warriors Ball Hockey
Campfire Ministries
Canadian Cancer Society
Canadian Waterman Festival
Chimo Gymnastics Club
Communities in Bloom
Compass Adventure Sailing
Cops for Cancer, Tour de Rock
Courtenay Atom Blizzards
Courtenay Rotary Auction
Cowichan Valley Bulldogs Football
CR50K Trail Challenge
Crimson Coast Dance Society
Cystic Fibrosis Canada
Discovery Passage Boat Rodeo
Discovery Toastmasters
Ducks Unlimited Canada
Ducks Unlimited Canada - Comox Valley Chapter
Duncan Volunteer Fire Fighters
Eagle View Elementary School Spring Fun Fair
Ecole Willow Point
Elks of Canada
Fraternal Order of Eagles Pacific Curling Bonspiel
Friends of the Kelsey Centre Society
Goldstream Volunteer Salmonid Enhancement Society
Habitat for Humanity
Heart and Stroke Foundation
Howie Meeker Charity Golf Classic
Kingcome Inlet Christmas
Kingcome Wellness Conference
Kitasoo Community School
Kitasoo/Xai/xais Prince Rupert All Native Basketball Tournament
Kitasoo/Xai'xais Kitamaat Reclamation Celebration
Kiwanis Sunrise
Klemtu Stewart Wallis Memorial Basketball Tournament
Knights of Columbus
Knights of Columbus
Kwakiutl Fisheries Fry Release
Kwalikum Secondary School
Lyndon's Legacy Mixed Slo-Pitch Tournament
Marine Harvest Bandits Ladies Soccer
Marine Harvest Ladies Curling Open
Nanaimo Folk Festival
North Island College
North Island Dragon Boat Society
North Island Eagles Bantam Rep Hockey
North Island Early Child Development Society
North Island Hamper Fund
North Island Lanes
North Island Secondary School
North Island Silvertips
North Island Silvertips Hockey
North Island Youth Wellness Conference
Nuyumbalees Cultural Centre
Oceans Day
Oyster River Enhancement Society
Pacific Salmon Foundation
Peir Street Farmers Market and Arts Fair
Porsche Club of America
Port Alice Rumblefest
Port Hardy Chamber Awards
Port Hardy Filomi Days
Port Hardy Relay for Life
Port Hardy Rotary Club
Port Hardy Secondary School
Port Hardy Slo Pitch
Port McNeill Chinook Club
Port McNeill Orca Fest
Port McNeill Rotary Club
Positive Aquaculture Awareness Slo-Pitch
Quatsino Sound Fishing Derby
Ralph Boyd Men's Curling Bonspiel
Rotary Dancing and Tapas
Salt Spring Island Fire Rescue
Salvation Army
Saratoga Speedway
Sarita River Chinook Enhancement
Sayward Kusam Klimb
Sayward Parent Advisory Committee (PAC)
Sayward RCMP Bike Rodeo
Sayward School PAC
Sayward Senior Christmas Dinner
Sayward Tour De Rock
Shinto-Ryu Karate Club
Shito-Ryu Karate Club
Special Olympics BC
Storey Creek Men's Golf Tournament
Storey Creek Mixed Golf Tournament
Strathcona Triathlon Club
Success by 6
Telus Van Isle 360 Yacht Race
The Canadian MPS Society
The Canadian Society for Mucopolysaccharide
The Nature Trust of BC
Tsolum River Restoration Society
United Mennonite Church Africa Famine Relief
United Way
Vancouve Island University
Vancouver Island Escape RV Club
Vanier Secondary School
VGH & UBC Hospital Foundation
Victoria Fish and Game Protective Association
Y.A.N.A.
Young Life Nanaimo
Marine Harvest Canada Supporting Community Organizations in 2010.
[download document]
Now tell me salmon aquaculture contributes nothing to the community. Let's see your list :-X
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Salmon farmers are not complaining about the origin of disease. They realize it is the way it is as it is in most forms of husbandry. Even if there were no wild salmon the farmers would still be subject to a equal variety of pathogens. No salmon farming company or organization ever stated that the best way to prevent disease would be to get rid of wild salmon. That is just ridiculous. If I am wrong then please post the source of your comment. If you do not post a source of that comment then admit you just made it up.
Sorry to see you misunderstood my comments.....
I'll try to rephrase: Since the feedlots point their fingers at the wild salmon being the cause of their diseases, and the feedlots refuse to move on dry land, away from the wild salmon, it seems natural to assume that the only solution to their diseases is to get rid of the wild salmon.....
However I agree with you that's it's ridiculous to entertain the idea of getting rid of the wild salmon. You then need to agree with me that the only plausible solution is to get rid of the feedlots.
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Sorry to see you misunderstood my comments.....
I'm not a mind reader. It read that way pretty clearly.
Let's agree on one thing, that the wild fish were in the ocean first. I get tired of hearing that the wild salmon are responsible for the diseases in the feedlots. I don't hear land based farmers complaining about how naturally occurring wild life is making their farm animals sick.
If the feedlots are convinced that wild salmon are making their feedlots sick, get the pens out of the ocean and on dry land! If we are to believe the feedlots, the only solution they are offering to disease control in their pens is to get rid of the wild salmon.....
Doesn't it seem rather hypocritical of the feedlots to complain when they feel a "quarantine zone" is breached, yet they offer no assurance that their diseases are being quarantined? Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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You then need to agree with me that the only plausible solution is to get rid of the feedlots.
There isn't a pressing consistent disease issue overall so the need to get rid of them is not there.
Have you been hearing news about a virus in Cultus Lake wild salmon?.. A fact sheet has been posted on the BCSFA Hot Topics page for everyone’s reference.
PISCINE REovaRus (PRV) AND HSMI
Key Points:
· Fish on BC’s salmon farms are healthy and there are no unexplained or unusual mortalities occurring on our sites.
· While viruses are extremely common in the marine environment, the vast majority of them does not cause any disease or harm to fish. PRV has been detected in healthy fish in healthy populations: showing that its presence does not mean disease occurs.
PAA Note: read more key points at link below.
…Statements made connecting PRV in Cultus Lake trout with our salmon farms, or suggesting a level of effect of PRV in these populations far overreach current knowledge and are making assumptions and drawing unsupported conclusions — as did claims in April this year by anti-salmon farm activist Alexandra Morton.
http://www.salmonfarmers.org./sites/default/files/hot-topics/prv_hsmi_2_1.pdf (http://www.salmonfarmers.org./sites/default/files/hot-topics/prv_hsmi_2_1.pdf)
http://www.salmonfarmers.org./hot-topics (http://www.salmonfarmers.org./hot-topics)
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Apparently you aren't aware of how much Marine Harvest Canada actually does to contribute to enhancement of wild salmon and provide assistance to local hatcheries . MHI regularly donates used hatchery equipment to local small hatcheries, they donated a dock for Roberts Lake and have beach clean up I believe twice a year. To claim they want wild salmon out of the ocean is just plain wrong. They also regularly have BBQ's with the funds raised going to local causes and salmon enhancement groups.
Tobacco companies also have long lists of organizations that they contribute to...... edited to add: http://www.ansrmn.org/fckfiles/Tab1-FINAL.pdf (http://www.ansrmn.org/fckfiles/Tab1-FINAL.pdf)
Unfortunately it doesn't mean that they care about or are planning on doing anything different to prevent their product from causing cancer in the people that use it.
http://www.cqct.qc.ca/Documents_docs/DOCU_2003/DOCU_03_05_00_DonsENG.PDF (http://www.cqct.qc.ca/Documents_docs/DOCU_2003/DOCU_03_05_00_DonsENG.PDF)
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There isn't a pressing consistent disease issue overall so the need to get rid of them is not there.
Have you been hearing news about a virus in Cultus Lake wild salmon?.. A fact sheet has been posted on the BCSFA Hot Topics page for everyone’s reference.
PISCINE REovaRus (PRV) AND HSMI
Key Points:
· Fish on BC’s salmon farms are healthy and there are no unexplained or unusual mortalities occurring on our sites.
· While viruses are extremely common in the marine environment, the vast majority of them does not cause any disease or harm to fish. PRV has been detected in healthy fish in healthy populations: showing that its presence does not mean disease occurs.
PAA Note: read more key points at link below.
…Statements made connecting PRV in Cultus Lake trout with our salmon farms, or suggesting a level of effect of PRV in these populations far overreach current knowledge and are making assumptions and drawing unsupported conclusions — as did claims in April this year by anti-salmon farm activist Alexandra Morton.
http://www.salmonfarmers.org./sites/default/files/hot-topics/prv_hsmi_2_1.pdf (http://www.salmonfarmers.org./sites/default/files/hot-topics/prv_hsmi_2_1.pdf)
http://www.salmonfarmers.org./hot-topics (http://www.salmonfarmers.org./hot-topics)
Unfortunately, because the feedlots will not voluntarily provide disease records, we are expected to take their word for it. That is like asking the tobacco companies to provide us with medical evidence on the effect of their product use on a person's health..... ???
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Unfortunately, because the feedlots will not voluntarily provide disease records, we are expected to take their word for it.
Another item you are just making up. Or did I read it wrong and stand to be corrected.
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Unfortunately, because the feedlots will not voluntarily provide disease records, we are expected to take their word for it. That is like asking the tobacco companies to provide us with medical evidence on the effect of their product use on a person's health..... ???
You have been reading too much Morton nonsense. The disease records are available online. Salmon farm fish are tested constantly to ensure the fish are healthy. The claim farm companies refuse to provide disease records is another very old & outdated Morton claim. As for your reference to tobacco companies it is irrelevent to salmon farming. Any fool sucking 800 plus poisonous chemicals into their lungs voluntarily over a prolonged period of time shouldn't need anyone to tell them it's going to kill them. People who smoke do so willingly and in spite of doctors warnings they die every day as a result. :(
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Tobacco companies also have long lists of organizations that they contribute to...... edited to add: http://www.ansrmn.org/fckfiles/Tab1-FINAL.pdf (http://www.ansrmn.org/fckfiles/Tab1-FINAL.pdf)
Unfortunately it doesn't mean that they care about or are planning on doing anything different to prevent their product from causing cancer in the people that use it.
http://www.cqct.qc.ca/Documents_docs/DOCU_2003/DOCU_03_05_00_DonsENG.PDF (http://www.cqct.qc.ca/Documents_docs/DOCU_2003/DOCU_03_05_00_DonsENG.PDF)
Can tobacco companies physically prevent millions of people from lighting up their cancer sticks ? I think not. I assume you got this from Don Staniford ? It's his favourite ploy.
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Unfortunately, because the feedlots will not voluntarily provide disease records, we are expected to take their word for it. That is like asking the tobacco companies to provide us with medical evidence on the effect of their product use on a person's health..... ???
Another item you are just making up. Or did I read it wrong and stand to be corrected.
Not making it up.... here's the government's own report.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/BCSFA/BCSFA_Fish_Health_Quarterly_Report_Review.pdf
"There are currently 13 companies operating private aquaculture facilities in British Columbia. Eight of these (or 62%) are providing data to the database.
The public sector facilities have agreed to also provide data to the database. As of October 2003, information has been provided from eleven Salmon Enhancement facilities operated by DFO and two FwFS hatcheries. While this does not represent all public facilities, it does provide a sampling of the fish health concerns facing the public sector operations.
It should be noted that in each quarter, the number of facilities providing data (i.e. thesample size) does vary, causing some variation in the calculations and results provided."
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You have been reading too much Morton nonsense. The disease records are available online. Salmon farm fish are tested constantly to ensure the fish are healthy. The claim farm companies refuse to provide disease records is another very old & outdated Morton claim. As for your reference to tobacco companies it is irrelevent to salmon farming. Any fool sucking 800 plus poisonous chemicals into their lungs voluntarily over a prolonged period of time shouldn't need anyone to tell them it's going to kill them. People who smoke do so willingly and in spite of doctors warnings they die every day as a result. :(
No, the information I got online was from the government report. While all farms probably track their diseases, under a voluntary reporting program, why would a farm shed bad light on it's operation by reporting all it's diseases?
Probably could use a tobacco analogy here, but I'm sure you get the point.
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Your post suggest that none of the farms report. Now your flying the flag that some don't...typical AF. Convenient that after one of your post 3 or so more of your post have to go by to clearly understand what you attempt to misrepresent. You are a true campaigner!!
This is a key note in your last post. Thanks for that.
While this does not represent all public facilities, it does provide a sampling of the fish health concerns facing the public sector operations.
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Your post suggest that none of the farms report. Now your flying the flag that some don't...typical AF. Convenient that after one of your post 3 or so more of your post have to go buy to clearly understand what you attempt to misrepresent. You are a true campaigner!!
This is a key note in your last post. Thanks for that.
I'd feel more confident in the farm report, if 100% of the feedlots were required to report their diseases rather than having to settle with voluntary reporting from 62% of them.... Are the ones not reporting, hiding something?
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If Morton was not doing what she does ie, misrepresenting every tidbit of information she can, then you would see 100% reporting. Never the less the farms that do report are always reporting regardless. Individual farms are not selectively reporting, they report everything. On top of this federal veterinarians are regularly looking at all the sites anyways. But that not good enough for you I am certain of that.
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If Morton was not doing what she does ie, misrepresenting every tidbit of information she can, then you would see 100% reporting. Never the less the farms that do report are always reporting regardless. Individual farms are not selectively reporting, they report everything. On top of this federal veterinarians are regularly looking at all the sites anyways. But that not good enough for you I am certain of that.
You seem like a trustworthy fella, even for a fish farmer..... ;D
However I would still feel more comfortable with 100% mandatory reporting as opposed to just taking your word for it. ::)
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Not making it up.... here's the government's own report.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/BCSFA/BCSFA_Fish_Health_Quarterly_Report_Review.pdf
"There are currently 13 companies operating private aquaculture facilities in British Columbia. Eight of these (or 62%) are providing data to the database.
The public sector facilities have agreed to also provide data to the database. As of October 2003, information has been provided from eleven Salmon Enhancement facilities operated by DFO and two FwFS hatcheries. While this does not represent all public facilities, it does provide a sampling of the fish health concerns facing the public sector operations.
It should be noted that in each quarter, the number of facilities providing data (i.e. thesample size) does vary, causing some variation in the calculations and results provided."
Where does it say the companies are "refusing " to provide data ? ??? as you claim
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I want you to feel good indeed. So if the lower mainland divides itself into 100 sections and only 62 percent of them report, flues and colds, don't you think that those results will reasonably reflect the stats of the remaining 38%? I agree that all companies should report but if you are wondering why they don't. Is because of the morton types. Another di-service she is doing for you.
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Let's agree on one thing, that the wild fish were in the ocean first. I get tired of hearing that the wild salmon are responsible for the diseases in the feedlots. I don't hear land based farmers complaining about how naturally occurring wild life is making their farm animals sick.
If the feedlots are convinced that wild salmon are making their feedlots sick, get the pens out of the ocean and on dry land! If we are to believe the feedlots, the only solution they are offering to disease control in their pens is to get rid of the wild salmon.....
Doesn't it seem rather hypocritical of the feedlots to complain when they feel a "quarantine zone" is breached, yet they offer no assurance that their diseases are being quarantined? ::) ::)
BC Ministry of Agriculture
Farms affected by diseases of concern such as IHN must immediately implement isolation measures to reduce the impact of the disease. Some measures include:
•Enforcing strict disinfection procedures
•Limiting the movement of all personnel, equipment and boats
•Using separate dive teams to survey sites at each farm
•Special procedures for removal and disposal of dead fish
•Special precautions for harvesting to prevent spread of the disease
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No, the information I got online was from the government report. While all farms probably track their diseases, under a voluntary reporting program, why would a farm shed bad light on it's operation by reporting all it's diseases?
Probably could use a tobacco analogy here, but I'm sure you get the point.
Why would a farm try and hide a disease that would spread and infect other farms knowingly ? Considering the nearest farms also probably belong to that company why would they place their own fish at risk. Sorry doesn't fly.
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I want you to feel good indeed. So if the lower mainland divides itself into 100 sections and only 62 percent of them report, flues and colds, don't you think that those results will reasonably reflect the stats of the remaining 38%? I agree that all companies should report but if you are wondering why they don't. Is because of the morton types. Another di-service she is doing for you.
The problem I see is that the 62% that are reporting may be the 62% that don't have diseases. I'm worried about the 38% that are not reporting.
If they are seriously interested in creating public trust in their "voluntary reporting" they should grow up, and get over their fear of the Morton types.
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Why would a farm try and hide a disease that would spread and infect other farms knowingly ? Considering the nearest farms also probably belong to that company why would they place their own fish at risk. Sorry doesn't fly.
That's well and honorable, now why not just "man up" and make it mandatory for 100% of them to report?
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That's well and honorable, now why not just "man up" and make it mandatory for 100% of them to report?
In the grand scheme of things what difference would it make to you if you knew every detail of the reports. Would you even understand them if you did have access ? :-\
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Here AF - you'll have to print it out.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/BangHeadHere.gif)
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In the grand scheme of things what difference would it make to you if you knew every detail of the reports. Would you even understand them if you did have access ? :-\
Because we wouldn't be in the dark?
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In the grand scheme of things what difference would it make to you if you knew every detail of the reports. Would you even understand them if you did have access ? Undecided
He has morton to interpret them for him. ::)
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In the grand scheme of things what difference would it make to you if you knew every detail of the reports. Would you even understand them if you did have access ? :-\
Now you're being nasty again Annie..... You need to be careful as you may hurt my feelings. :D
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The problem I see is that the 62% that are reporting may be the 62% that don't have diseases. I'm worried about the 38% that are not reporting.
If they are seriously interested in creating public trust in their "voluntary reporting" they should grow up, and get over their fear of the Morton types.
Really ?? Considering it matters not what salmon farmers do to comply Morton and her crusades become pretty tiresome. I would have thought from my original post on this forum pertaining to some of the falsehoods directed toward my husband and I you would appreciate the amount of false and erroneous misinformation circulated by Morton and her closest supporters and the stress it creates for salmon farmers in both their personal life and in the workplace. I wonder how you would react if someone you didn't even know and who actually knows absolutely nothing about you was posting in a public forum that you are a crook ? I sincerely doubt you were ever subjected to even a fraction of the baloney fish farmers are in whatever your working profession was/is ?
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Because we wouldn't be in the dark?
You could turn on a light by taking a salmon farm tour. They are available now. You might be surprised by what you learn about salmon farming.
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Now you're being nasty again Annie..... You need to be careful as you may hurt my feelings. :D
Nasty ?? ??? Wow such sensitive men on here..........Quite a novelty to see men so easily hurt. I simply mean some of the reports are pretty technical. Unless your a trained biologist they can be difficult to decipher even if you have access.
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Here AF - you'll have to print it out.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/BangHeadHere.gif)
Now that is funny. Pretty much how salmon farmers feel about Morton and her theories.
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Now you're being nasty again Annie..... You need to be careful as you may hurt my feelings. :D
Your starting to remind me of my old Dad before he died. He loved to argue too ;) ;)
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Really ?? Considering it matters not what salmon farmers do to comply Morton and her crusades become pretty tiresome. I would have thought from my original post on this forum pertaining to some of the falsehoods directed toward my husband and I you would appreciate the amount of false and erroneous misinformation circulated by Morton and her closest supporters and the stress it creates for salmon farmers in both their personal life and in the workplace. I wonder how you would react if someone you didn't even know and who actually knows absolutely nothing about you was posting in a public forum that you are a crook ? I sincerely doubt you were ever subjected to even a fraction of the baloney fish farmers are in whatever your working profession was/is ?
I must admit that brought a very tiny tear to my eye....... Then I realized it was because I was laughing so hard. ;D
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I must admit that brought a very tiny tear to my eye....... Then I realized it was because I was laughing so hard. ;D
So apparently you think spreading false information on the internet even if it is slanderous is okay ? :o :o :o
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Annie, If you had the time to read three or four years of his posts you would know it's his MO. Not only does he feel it is ok he is an active participant.
Time to go over PCBs again isn't it af?
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Annie, If you had the time to read three or four years of his posts you would know it's his MO. Not only does he feel it is ok he is an active participant.
Time to go over PCBs again isn't it af?
Don't think I could handle it ............would be up there with the 16 years of reading Morton posts wouldn't it ? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Annie, If you had the time to read three or four years of his posts you would know it's his MO. Not only does he feel it is ok he is an active participant.
Time to go over PCBs again isn't it af?
Commentary like that does little to help your cause. ::) Even if it is a lost one here.
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Annie, If you had the time to read three or four years of his posts you would know it's his MO. Not only does he feel it is ok he is an active participant.
Time to go over PCBs again isn't it af?
rye + water = hangover
scotch + water = hangover
bourbon + water = hangover
Therefore water causes hangovers Yeah I know the type :)
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Commentary like that does little to help your cause. ::) Even if it is a lost one here.
Aquaculture is growing worldwide. Hardly a lost cause.
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Aquaculture is growing worldwide. Hardly a lost cause.
I was referring to the condescending tone, but if the shoe fits ;). I can't believe I'm sticking up for AF - we bare knuckled it over the HST. He must be getting wiser with age. ;D
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I was referring to the condescending tone, but if the shoe fits ;). I can't believe I'm sticking up for AF - we bare knuckled it over the HST. He must be getting wiser with age. ;D
http://salmoncoast.org/new__broughton_archipelago_salmon_health_assessment Another plea from Morton for yet her latest scam
I am always surprised that dedicated sports fishermen and guides don't realise that by trying to destroy salmon farming she is doing a damn good job of harming tourism with her disease crusade. It is posted in every venue she can muster. Just a matter of time till the tourism industry in BC pays the price thanks to Morton and NOT salmon farming.
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http://salmoncoast.org/new__broughton_archipelago_salmon_health_assessment Another plea from Morton for yet her latest scam
I am always surprised that dedicated sports fishermen and guides don't realise that by trying to destroy salmon farming she is doing a damn good job of harming tourism with her disease crusade. It is posted in every venue she can muster. Just a matter of time till the tourism industry in BC pays the price thanks to Morton and NOT salmon farming.
Seems to me that Morton is doing what the government and CFIA should be doing, but isn't....... testing to determine the diseases these feedlots are spreading before it's too late.
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Seems to me that Morton is doing what the government and CFIA should be doing, but isn't....... testing to determine the diseases these feedlots are spreading before it's too late.
Too bad she isn't qualified to do the testing. Since when do you purchase samples in a grocery store. :-\ The government agencies have done the testing. Morton just has this idea only she is capable of doing it properly. Cannot believe people bite into rotting spawned out salmon and organless and gill less grocery store salmon with no chain of handling or origin are optimum for testing. What exactly is she testing in a grocery store fish anyway when it has no internal organs or gills ? And why doesn't Dr Fred Kibenge acknowledge and confirm her claims since he is the one she credits with her testing. Back to your circular argument again AF. And your back to blaming salmon farms for diseases originating in wild fish.
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Another plea from Morton for yet her latest scam
You'll be lucky if you don't get sued for some of your comments here.
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Too bad she isn't qualified to do the testing. Since when do you purchase samples in a grocery store. :-\ The government agencies have done the testing. Morton just has this idea only she is capable of doing it properly. Cannot believe people bite into rotting spawned out salmon and organless and gill less grocery store salmon with no chain of handling or origin are optimum for testing. What exactly is she testing in a grocery store fish anyway when it has no internal organs or gills ? And why doesn't Dr Fred Kibenge acknowledge and confirm her claims since he is the one she credits with her testing. Back to your circular argument again AF. And your back to blaming salmon farms for diseases originating in wild fish.
If only what you just posted was true....... The CFIA has finally started started testing farmed and wild salmon since this spring. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/backgrounder/eng/1330100651673/1330100817464 (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/backgrounder/eng/1330100651673/1330100817464) And they likely would not even be doing that, if not for the Cohen commission's work in revealing how DFO and CFIA have been negligent in doing the proper science.
Doesn't it seem a little strange that someone didn't start testing farmed and wild salmon as soon as the feedlots entered the water? Or were they relying on the voluntary reporting that 62% of the feedlots were providing? Or is it that DFO and CFIA have been directed by the government to do everything (or nothing?) to ensure that the public doesn't find out about the diseases the feedlots are potentially spreading?
We all know that the future of the BC feedlots is in the hands of the public..... When the public becomes aware of the risk the feedlots bring to our coastal environment, they will stop buying the product. Morton also is aware that the public wants to know whether the feedlots are selling diseased product, so she is making her best efforts to test the stuff, because nobody else is......
Ultimately her goal is to save the wild salmon.
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You'll be lucky if you don't get sued for some of your comments here.
Sued for what ? She has used grocery store samples. I'm questioning how they are optimum to be tested for disease when there is no proof from where they came and no proof they haven't been cross contaminated by other species imported from outside the country.. I also question why sports fishers are not growing concerned for the damage that is being done now by her disease claims to all sports, commercial and farmed salmon in BC. How is that libel ? They are valid questions. There are no postings on OIE lab site confirming her claims although other fish diseases including the ISA outbreaks in the maritimes are listed. Further to that several labs including the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and DFO amongst them have not been able to duplicate her claimed results. If ISA for example were in fact present in BC waters ALL Atlantic salmon would probably now be dead. They aren't. Morton counters that by simply calling the government scientists liars.
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If only what you just posted was true....... The CFIA has finally started started testing farmed and wild salmon since this spring. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/backgrounder/eng/1330100651673/1330100817464 (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/backgrounder/eng/1330100651673/1330100817464) And they likely would not even be doing that, if not for the Cohen commission's work in revealing how DFO and CFIA have been negligent in doing the proper science.
Doesn't it seem a little strange that someone didn't start testing farmed and wild salmon as soon as the feedlots entered the water? Or were they relying on the voluntary reporting that 62% of the feedlots were providing? Or is it that DFO and CFIA have been directed by the government to do everything (or nothing?) to ensure that the public doesn't find out about the diseases the feedlots are potentially spreading?
We all know that the future of the BC feedlots is in the hands of the public..... When the public becomes aware of the risk the feedlots bring to our coastal environment, they will stop buying the product. Morton also is aware that the public wants to know whether the feedlots are selling diseased product, so she is making her best efforts to test the stuff, because nobody else is......
Ultimately her goal is to save the wild salmon.
Valid questions AF but let's remember even Morton only raised the question of ISA in BC after it arrived in the Maritimes. When farming was orginally started in BC there had been no disease outbreaks or sea lice infestations in Norway to raise concern in other countries. ISA is a recently discovered disease. I don't think by announcing to the world all BC salmon has assorted naturally occurring diseases in most cases is proof salmon farms are to blame for those same diseases but she is sure going to do some serious harm to local sports fishing enterprises in the interim and BC salmon's reputation. And let's remember the samples provided through her to CFIA were too degraded to test properly. If that was the case were they tested properly to begin with ?
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If she was trying to primarily save wild salmon she would be going after sport fishing/commercial fishing and alsaka salmon ranching and fish hatcheries and other issues. She has never spoke once of anything else but salmon farms. She is only an anti salmon farming activist. Nothing more.
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If only what you just posted was true....... The CFIA has finally started started testing farmed and wild salmon since this spring. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/backgrounder/eng/1330100651673/1330100817464 (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/backgrounder/eng/1330100651673/1330100817464) And they likely would not even be doing that, if not for the Cohen commission's work in revealing how DFO and CFIA have been negligent in doing the proper science.
Doesn't it seem a little strange that someone didn't start testing farmed and wild salmon as soon as the feedlots entered the water? Or were they relying on the voluntary reporting that 62% of the feedlots were providing? Or is it that DFO and CFIA have been directed by the government to do everything (or nothing?) to ensure that the public doesn't find out about the diseases the feedlots are potentially spreading?
We all know that the future of the BC feedlots is in the hands of the public..... When the public becomes aware of the risk the feedlots bring to our coastal environment, they will stop buying the product. Morton also is aware that the public wants to know whether the feedlots are selling diseased product, so she is making her best efforts to test the stuff, because nobody else is......
Ultimately her goal is to save the wild salmon.
http://fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=19&id=46906&l=e&special=0&ndb=0
This is the article released within 24 hours of Morton and Routledge making their intial ISA claim by news conference. David Groman is the head of the department at Atlantic Veterinary College concerned with this testing. Note in his statement he disputes the claims made in Morton/Routledge newscast and in fact says there was NO confirmation of the virus. Fact. ::)
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If she was trying to primarily save wild salmon she would be going after sport fishing/commercial fishing and alsaka salmon ranching and fish hatcheries and other issues. She has never spoke once of anything else but salmon farms. She is only an anti salmon farming activist. Nothing more.
And that would be ONLY in Canada as she never mentions the farms in her homeland USA in Maine or Washington state nor has she mentioned the possibility kudoa may be present in Alaska halibut either. Alaska farms salmon whether they admit it or not. Their hatchery salmon spend one year in the same pens our farmed fish do and are probably fed the exact same feed. Calling it ranching doesn't change that fact.
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Annie or whatever her name is likes to drag everyone else's family member into the discussion because that is her dubious nature. She isn't making any points in my book. I noticed she was not even open about her relationship to Marine harvest on this site till I let the cat out of the bag. You go away non fisher Annie. You go away and not come back. Your only comments end up trying to drag someone through the mud. I don't mind saying that neither. Your like some of the other people on here who comment pro fish farm but never post about anything else. All very biased. Marine harvest employees need assistance program.
By the way if you read my original post I made reference to the fact my husband runs a MHI vessel. How was I not open about my relationship to MHI ? As for you letting the cat out of the bag kitty appears to be called premature comment.
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HERE AF ! QUICK! Sprinkle liberally! ;)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/imagesqtbnANd9GcQ7iyhk3PkHtJE5DVXYD3V2edzBdF3wiQlt55H6uycI_CSpUoMwuW-yFLOsSA.jpg)
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I've been playing this game for a long time and have learned that when they are stung their only comeback is an insult because they having nothing else to fall back on.
You were right annie.
I do not think she is a troll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
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You were right annie.
I do not think she is a troll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Biggest part of this game is retaining some sense of humour even when the bull is directed at you. Thanks for believing in me !! :) ;) as for Nova bonker -good one back atcha
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Seems to me that Morton is doing what the government and CFIA should be doing, but isn't....... testing to determine the diseases these feedlots are spreading before it's too late.
http://salmonfarmscience.com/author/salmonfarmscience/ Thank aquaculture for ocean virus knowledge
I've already figured out your response to this one ;D
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When farming was orginally started in BC there had been no disease outbreaks or sea lice infestations in Norway to raise concern in other countries
Quote unquote from "Annie". That is the most untrue statement you have come up with yet. What are you trying to do rewrite history. Take your crap some where else. :P
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Take your crap some where else. :P
You are welcome to disagree and point out others' mistakes as much as you want, but stop telling others to leave the discussion like you have done twice since last night if you still want to be one of the participants.
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sorry Rod :) just couldn't help myself
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when they are stung their only comeback is an insult because they have nothing else to fall back on.
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when they are stung their only comeback is an insult because they have nothing else to fall back on.
No point telling him fish farming began in Norway in the early 60's and ISA wasn't discovered until approx. 1984 is there ? ;) Or that salmon farming began in BC approx 1980.
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Lets face it lads the farms are here to stay... :D
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Lets face it lads the farms are here to stay... :D
Welcome back Bassonator..... I'm not sure what your cohorts are talking about, but your post made sense.
You could be right, but there are a lot of people betting against you.....
Now if somebody could get back to the topic, we can have a discussion, otherwise I'm done beating this one to death.
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get the pens out of the ocean and on dry land
Pretty good read so far you guys, this is what I'm thinking, long term wise.
As for the quote above, I imagine we all know that this would cost a small fortune, but over time wouldn't it be better for everyone ??
No more coastal shipping costs {lost jobs yes, but that happens in all industries, it's just part of life}.
One would think the trucking expenses would go down dramatically too, considering that the "land farms could be closer to the import/export targets.
The best thing about it is that no-one would have to debate over whether or not the wild fish or the farm fish are to blame when it comes to disease etc etc.
As a commercial fisherman for over 30 yrs I have always wondered why the fish farms never thought of land based plants instead of the ocean, other than the ocean being the O NATURAL place to be and the $$ that they would need to shell out for land based to get started would be huge.
Being a commercial fisherman I have fished for many species. I have Seined salmon and herring,Trawled ground fish, pollack and hake, Longlined halibut, rockfish , and dogfish, as well as Trapped blackcod {sablefish}here in Canada and king/opillio crab in Alaska.
When I was seining sockeye in Johnstone Straits we had one trip where we had caught over 30 pieces of Atlantic Farm Salmon, this was in August 1990's. The next year during the fall chum/dog fishery, also in the Straits, we had another 20 or so {farm fish}come aboard as well with the rest of our catch. We were worried then about what may become of this, I mean there's at least a hundred other boats out there fishing too, how many did they all catch ?? Things start to go through your head like disease, mixing the gene pool, blah blah blah, you get what I mean {sorry, grade 9 education here lollol}. There was worry amongst the fleet back then, and anyone saying different is a damn liar.
Truthfully I will not say I am totally against the fish farms as I know people who are in the industry and some are very good friends of mine.I also understand that the demand for the product {farmed salmon}is huge and it actually speaks for itself in the sales it gets around the world. Some people would go out of their way to eat Farmed Atlantic instead of wild salmon {i think their nuts but oh well :D} It is a huge industry that has a proven product, and hey, where else are your local tackle shops gonna get all that roe they sell ya ;D ;D ;D That's right, you actually think that it comes from wild chum and chinnook, WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!
IMO, the farming of Atlantic Salmon would be better off being shore based rather than ocean based, it would save the never ending political BS that goes on and on, the wild salmon would be free and clear of any farm worries {if there actually is any}, the farmers would save millions of dollars over time with the cost of trucking and shipping being near non existent compared to now, and best of all is we wouldn't have to listen to the Broughton Hippy talk smack all day every day, she could actually give ol' Paul Watson a call and maybe help him save a whale or two. Hey !! wouldn't they'd look good together ?? ;D
Idunno, that's my take on it.
BTW, I like your style Annie, AF's, not so much ;)
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Pretty good read so far you guys, this is what I'm thinking, long term wise.
As for the quote above, I imagine we all know that this would cost a small fortune, but over time wouldn't it be better for everyone ??
No more coastal shipping costs {lost jobs yes, but that happens in all industries, it's just part of life}.
One would think the trucking expenses would go down dramatically too, considering that the "land farms could be closer to the import/export targets.
The best thing about it is that no-one would have to debate over whether or not the wild fish or the farm fish are to blame when it comes to disease etc etc.
As a commercial fisherman for over 30 yrs I have always wondered why the fish farms never thought of land based plants instead of the ocean, other than the ocean being the O NATURAL place to be and the $$ that they would need to shell out for land based to get started would be huge.
Being a commercial fisherman I have fished for many species. I have Seined salmon and herring,Trawled ground fish, pollack and hake, Longlined halibut, rockfish , and dogfish, as well as Trapped blackcod {sablefish}here in Canada and king/opillio crab in Alaska.
When I was seining sockeye in Johnstone Straits we had one trip where we had caught over 30 pieces of Atlantic Farm Salmon, this was in August 1990's. The next year during the fall chum/dog fishery, also in the Straits, we had another 20 or so {farm fish}come aboard as well with the rest of our catch. We were worried then about what may become of this, I mean there's at least a hundred other boats out there fishing too, how many did they all catch ?? Things start to go through your head like disease, mixing the gene pool, blah blah blah, you get what I mean {sorry, grade 9 education here lollol}. There was worry amongst the fleet back then, and anyone saying different is a damn liar.
Truthfully I will not say I am totally against the fish farms as I know people who are in the industry and some are very good friends of mine.I also understand that the demand for the product {farmed salmon}is huge and it actually speaks for itself in the sales it gets around the world. Some people would go out of their way to eat Farmed Atlantic instead of wild salmon {i think their nuts but oh well :D} It is a huge industry that has a proven product, and hey, where else are your local tackle shops gonna get all that roe they sell ya ;D ;D ;D That's right, you actually think that it comes from wild chum and chinnook, WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!
IMO, the farming of Atlantic Salmon would be better off being shore based rather than ocean based, it would save the never ending political BS that goes on and on, the wild salmon would be free and clear of any farm worries {if there actually is any}, the farmers would save millions of dollars over time with the cost of trucking and shipping being near non existent compared to now, and best of all is we wouldn't have to listen to the Broughton Hippy talk smack all day every day, she could actually give ol' Paul Watson a call and maybe help him save a whale or two. Hey !! wouldn't they'd look good together ?? ;D
Idunno, that's my take on it.
BTW, I like your style Annie, AF's, not so much ;)
Thanks Bentley. Sarcasm and insults go with the turf when your a pro farm supporter. AF isn't half as bad as most of them. ;) As for land based salmon farming. Probably never happen on a large scale. The expense and carbon footprint would just be too high. Personally I wonder what a tank raised fish might taste like and what the flesh would be like. I saw the Washington state on land coho in Save-on last week and frankly I wouldn't buy it in spite of the fact my personal preference even as a commercial fisher was always for coho. I find sockeye is too strong tasting which is why I'd rather eat farmed Atlantic myself. Closed containment on a grand scale would be extremely expensive to the point you probably wouldn't make a profit which is what business is all about. Even us commercial fishers had to turn a profit or it was no longer feasible. I'm sure as soon as huge on land salmon farms appeared some other activist would rise up and cry about fossil fuels etc probably Morton would just don yet another cap . Even on Salmon are Sacred recently Anissa Reid apparently said she was against salmon farming on land or the sea and she is Morton's right hand man so you can see Morton no doubt speaks with forked tongue when she originally praised on land salmon farming. The carbon footprint would be huge and the farms would be on valuable waterfront property to be close to water source. Pumps would have to run 24/7 and noise could become a factor along with the use of countless barrels of diesel to run the pumps non stop. Air pollution and noise pollution would become the new debate. Not all it's cracked up to be when you look at it in a different light. But the truth is FF are here to stay and the industry is growing world wide both on land and in the sea. One billion people go hungry every day in the world and aquaculture is considered to be the means of ending world hunger. By 2050 we could all be going hungry without it when the world population reaches 9 billion. Even this year in the US there are huge crop failures due to drought. The world has changed immensely from when I was a child in the fifties and not all of the change has been for the better. As for Paul Watson and Morton together I think I agree with you ;)
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As far as land based fish farms one question I have is where does the waste water go, I mean lets face it youre running one huge aquarium now and water has to be changed.
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As far as land based fish farms one question I have is where does the waste water go, I mean lets face it youre running one huge aquarium now and water has to be changed.
With the proper filtration systems in place along with maintaining the appropriate oxygen levels one would think you would be self contained. Just look at the Stanley Park Salt Water Aquarium, I don't think their continuously pumping water in but I could be wrong.
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With the proper filtration systems in place along with maintaining the appropriate oxygen levels one would think you would be self contained. Just look at the Stanley Park Salt Water Aquarium, I don't think their continuously pumping water in but I could be wrong.
They are. The water is then filtered and treated when going out to the sea again. In fact, it is cleaner than what's in the sea when it goes out.
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They are. The water is then filtered and treated when going out to the sea again. In fact, it is cleaner than what's in the sea when it goes out.
I take it that would mean influent and effluent channels along with chlorinization, just like the waste water treatment plants do.
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In my experience, intakes are pipes at depth in order to avoid plankton blooms and surface debris and draw water at a more stable temperature. Outlets are discharged at surface.
Maintaining oxygen is only part of the requirement. The other half is removal of the products of metabolism that can become toxic at high levels. At densities required to make tank farming viable, both become something of a challenge. Any and every mechanical system used to meet the biological requirements requires a duplicate in place as backup against breakdown which can very quickly kill the crop. The capital costs add up very quickly and the operating costs, particularly for energy provide the nails for the coffin.
It is a fallacy propagated by the anti-farm movement that land based farms are viable on a production scale. There has been active research since salmon became a farm species; farms would much rather use that type of system because of the enhanced control of environmental conditions and as you suggest, the logistics. Unfortunately, the laws of biology in combination of the laws of physics mean that the laws of economics cannot be met and no amount of wishful thinking can change that. The anti-farm movement simply closes it's eyes and pretends that limitation doesn't exist.
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In my experience, intakes are pipes at depth in order to avoid plankton blooms and surface debris and draw water at a more stable temperature. Outlets are discharged at surface.
Maintaining oxygen is only part of the requirement. The other half is removal of the products of metabolism that can become toxic at high levels. At densities required to make tank farming viable, both become something of a challenge. Any and every mechanical system used to meet the biological requirements requires a duplicate in place as backup against breakdown which can very quickly kill the crop. The capital costs add up very quickly and the operating costs, particularly for energy provide the nails for the coffin.
It is a fallacy propagated by the anti-farm movement that land based farms are viable on a production scale. There has been active research since salmon became a farm species; farms would much rather use that type of system because of the enhanced control of environmental conditions and as you suggest, the logistics. Unfortunately, the laws of biology in combination of the laws of physics mean that the laws of economics cannot be met and no amount of wishful thinking can change that. The anti-farm movement simply closes it's eyes and pretends that limitation doesn't exist.
http://salmonfarmscience.com/author/salmonfarmscience/ Just out today..........USA prepares for massive growth in aquaculture
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Just back today ... lots of great discussion and a lot myths exploded ;D You're a pitbull AnnieP ... glad we're on the same side :)
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Just back today ... lots of great discussion and a lot myths exploded ;D You're a pitbull AnnieP ... glad we're on the same side :)
Thanks Dave, welcome back.
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http://www.vancouverobserver.com/blogs/world/2011/08/26/opinion-fish-farming-not-culprit-declining-salmon-stocks
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http://www.vancouverobserver.com/blogs/world/2011/08/26/opinion-fish-farming-not-culprit-declining-salmon-stocks
And your link tells us what??
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Troutbreath your link is a year old and the author well........
The author's bio: "Ruth Salmon is Executive Director of the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance"
She's an industry lobbyist
Enough said.
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http://twitter.com/bcaquaculture
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Awesome link TB thanx for that one.... :D :D
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Thought I'd help out the pro-feedlot boys by posting up a link to their website petitioning the Canadian Government and CFIA in order to put out a gag order on Morton...... Talk about desperate measures. ???
http://www.change.org/petitions/restrain-alexandra-morton-from-trespass-bio-security-quarantine-measures (http://www.change.org/petitions/restrain-alexandra-morton-from-trespass-bio-security-quarantine-measures)
They've been running it for a couple of months and they are up to 119 signatures. Doesn't appear to be getting a lot of traction..... ;D
Congratulations Annie...... You have 3 more fans! (Current count 122)
At this rate you should reach your 250 signature target by 2020. :D ;D
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Congratulations Annie...... You have 3 more fans! (Current count 122)
At this rate you should reach your 250 signature target by 2020. :D ;D
Like I said in my original post the petition was only a sarcastic response to Morton's cost-co and Safeway petition in the first place. And 122 signatures or Morton's 12,000 the population of North America still stands at approx. 340 million so your point is ? I seriously doubt the billion dollar Cost-co corperation pays much attention to Morton and her claims. ::)
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Awesome link TB thanx for that one.... :D :D
lots of good info for Annie there.
PS I hope you too have cut up your Save -on More card like a good banner carrier like they tell you to. Imagine Save on Foods selling tank raised fish. it's enough to make you want to organize a protest and burn there logo in effergy. Lots of fun shrill stuff on that web site boy o boy.
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The new battle lines fish farming against fish farming. The tankers against the net penners. Have at them Annie. :) All on that link I provided for your perusal. :D
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lots of good info for Annie there.
PS I hope you too have cut up your Save -on More card like a good banner carrier like they tell you to. Imagine Save on Foods selling tank raised fish. it's enough to make you want to organize a protest and burn there logo in effergy. Lots of fun shrill stuff on that web site boy o boy.
You must be fond of putting your foot in your mouth because I am well aware of Pacific Aquaculture Awareness. In fact they honoured me with an award on February 25th, 2012.
Heather Olney was recognized for her extremely active participation in Social Media and speaking out in support of Salmon Farming in BC
Here is Heather's very active Twitter Account: Annie Paddle @maisondesfleur : Retired commercial fisherman now staunch supporter of BC salmon aquaculture. https://twitter.com/#!/maisondesfleur and here is Heather speaking up on CTV Vancouver Island Report , November 08, 2011, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFuLxvX2WxA&feature=player_profilepage
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The new battle lines fish farming against fish farming. The tankers against the net penners. Have at them Annie. :) All on that link I provided for your perusal. :D
Appears the joke is on you :-*
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/13th-annual-bc-aquaculture-achievement-awards-thank-you
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Actually TB heres a tip think peruse before you post links... :D :D :D :D :D
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Appears the joke is on you :-*
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/13th-annual-bc-aquaculture-achievement-awards-thank-you
I feel bad for you..... your buddies awarded you for spreading the gospel of aquaculture, and then abandoned you when you needed their signatures on your petition.... :'(
Or maybe there are only 122 members in the Positive Aquaculture organization?? ;D ;D
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lots of good info for Annie there.
PS I hope you too have cut up your Save -on More card like a good banner carrier like they tell you to. Imagine Save on Foods selling tank raised fish. it's enough to make you want to organize a protest and burn there logo in effergy. Lots of fun shrill stuff on that web site boy o boy.
Actually TB I just got a rather nice crock pot with my Save-on More points and as much as I'd like to not shop there at all it is the only place in town that carries Udi gluten free products. Being wheat intolerant I don't have much choice.
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I feel bad for you..... your buddies awarded you for spreading the gospel of aquaculture, and then abandoned you when you needed their signatures on your petition.... :'(
Or maybe there are only 122 members in the Positive Aquaculture organization?? ;D ;D
AF your splitting hairs the petition was a joke to begin with get it ?? Haa haa hee hee giggle whatever They don't need to sign the petition because the IHN outbreak is over anyway. Petition irrelevent no matter how many names are on it. Seems to have gotten your attention. And Morton has achieved what with hers ? Last time I was in Cost-co they were still selling farmed salmon so 12,000 signatures achieved what ? Quit beating a dead horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco Somehow aI doubt a corporation this large is frightened by some Broughton hippy.
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AF your splitting hairs the petition was a joke to begin with get it ?? Haa haa hee hee giggle whatever They don't need to sign the petition because the IHN outbreak is over anyway. Petition irrelevent no matter how many names are on it. Seems to have gotten your attention. And Morton has achieved what with hers ? Last time I was in Cost-co they were still selling farmed salmon so 12,000 signatures achieved what ? Quit beating a dead horse.
It feels good to finally agree with you on something..... the petition is a joke.
As far as beating a dead horse..... My comments are still on topic and relevant. ???
Edit: May I suggest if you would like to tell us about all your achievements and awards in the feedlot business...... start a new thread about them....
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It feels good to finally agree with you on something..... the petition is a joke.
As far as beating a dead horse..... My comments are still on topic and relevant. ???
Edit: May I suggest if you would like to tell us about all your achievements and awards in the feedlot business...... start a new thread about them....
Doesn't take much to ridicule someone while hiding behind some user name. Man up and do it under your real name
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Im gonna quote AF from another thread and Forum where he's in favor of Enbridge, which really puzzles me as I think that Enbridge is far more important than this fish farm spectacle.
So heres the quote "You are obviously not willing to accept any risk, probably because you do not understand the benefits of developing a secondary market for our oil. Without an appreciation for the need to export the oil, I can understand your position."
Now heres the funny part Im saying the same thing except Im replacing oil with our fish farms...... :o :o :o :o :o
My name Is Oly Habermann btw...... ;D
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Im gonna quote AF from another thread and Forum where he's in favor of Enbridge, which really puzzles me as I think that Enbridge is far more important than this fish farm spectacle.
So heres the quote "You are obviously not willing to accept any risk, probably because you do not understand the benefits of developing a secondary market for our oil. Without an appreciation for the need to export the oil, I can understand your position."
Now heres the funny part Im saying the same thing except Im replacing oil with our fish farms...... :o :o :o :o :o
My name Is Oly Habermann btw...... ;D
Hi Oly, pleased to meet you. Funny to me that someone who cares about fish thinks Enbridge is okay with a spill record of over 800 + incidents. And he's worried about a few FF's ? There won't be a fish left on this coast or much for wildlife either if Enbridge comes to Kitimat and has just one spill. :o :o :o :o :o
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Funny to think contained salmon fishing is worse than open pen. But your comfortable with it and that's what matters.
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Funny to think contained salmon fishing is worse than open pen. But your comfortable with it and that's what matters.
Guess you prefer air and noise pollution to fish being grown in their natural environment. You and AF apparently haven't clued in yet that you cannot and will not intimidate me. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Somebody please explain to Annie how a cage is not a salmon's "natural environment."
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Somebody please explain to Annie how a cage is not a salmon's "natural environment."
But swimming in the ocean is :D
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But swimming in the ocean is :D
Guess that depends on if your farming farmed "PACIFIC" salmon, or farmed "ATLANTIC" salmon there Annie ;D ;D
Rock on Girl ;) So far you's guys are getting whipped by this lady.
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Guess that depends on if your farming farmed "PACIFIC" salmon, or farmed "ATLANTIC" salmon there Annie ;D ;D
Rock on Girl ;) So far you's guys are getting whipped by this lady.
That's why the Atlantics are in their cage ;) BTW there are a few Chinook in those cages too. A little more natural than some solid green fibreglass tank on land wouldn't you say ?
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That's why the Atlantics are in their cage ;) BTW there are a few Chinook in those cages too. A little more natural than some solid green fibreglass tank on land wouldn't you say ?
A imagine so Annie. :D
Like I said previously, if I had a choice, I would prefer the farms to be on land but after hearing from others on here, including yourself, the logistics as well as other reasons make it far from reality.
To be honest, being a commercial fisherman for the last 30 years I am very naive/ignorant to what the fish farming practices really are. I am in no way an expert on anything to do with any of it. I was hot collared as a commercial guy {along with many others} back in the 90's when we caught some escaped farm fish, thinking that our wild fish were doomed, but in reality we didn't know a bloody thing really, and since then have really not paid any attention to it at all.
One would think that what the general population puts into it's water ways and the over harvesting of fish is the biggest threat to any fish species that are taken for food but who am I, just a dumb ex fisherman I guess. That said I think I should leave it to you experts to continue in your debates.
Have a good one Annie, it's been cool reading your material so far, and BTW, I can't stand that hippy broad. If I hear another Alex Morton this or a Alex Morton that I think I'll puke. She's obviously just a hugger from the Broughtons who instead of going around causing a bunch of BS, should just be happy/grateful she has a serene way of living along with a beautiful place to call home. Maybe it's time we did some more Fife Sound Pollack fishing and really pi$$ her off. ;D ;D ;D
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Doesn't take much to ridicule someone while hiding behind some user name. Man up and do it under your real name
Maybe someday when I start my own petition and my friends in the feedlot business give me an award for promoting their business, then I will use my real name. However until I earn that type of fame you can call me John Brown or what ever you like..
However most people on the forum probably recognize me better as alwaysfishn (or AF for short).... ;D
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A imagine so Annie. :D
Like I said previously, if I had a choice, I would prefer the farms to be on land but after hearing from others on here, including yourself, the logistics as well as other reasons make it far from reality.
To be honest, being a commercial fisherman for the last 30 years I am very naive/ignorant to what the fish farming practices really are. I am in no way an expert on anything to do with any of it. I was hot collared as a commercial guy {along with many others} back in the 90's when we caught some escaped farm fish, thinking that our wild fish were doomed, but in reality we didn't know a bloody thing really, and since then have really not paid any attention to it at all.
One would think that what the general population puts into it's water ways and the over harvesting of fish is the biggest threat to any fish species that are taken for food but who am I, just a dumb ex fisherman I guess. That said I think I should leave it to you experts to continue in your debates.
Have a good one Annie, it's been cool reading your material so far, and BTW, I can't stand that hippy broad. If I hear another Alex Morton this or a Alex Morton that I think I'll puke. She's obviously just a hugger from the Broughtons who instead of going around causing a bunch of BS, should just be happy/grateful she has a serene way of living along with a beautiful place to call home. Maybe it's time we did some more Fife Sound Pollack fishing and really pi$$ her off. ;D ;D ;D
She seems to pick and choose what upsets her. Enbridge not a blink that her "Great Bear Rainforest" could be doomed but hey her uncle's an oil venture capitalist and Pew Foundation founders of Sun Oil doles money to Tides Canada and hence to Morton.
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Maybe someday when I start my own petition and my friends in the feedlot business give me an award for promoting their business, then I will use my real name. However until I earn that type of fame you can call me John Brown or what ever you like..
However most people on the forum probably recognize me better as alwaysfishn (or AF for short).... ;D
La La La La La
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A imagine so Annie. :D
Like I said previously, if I had a choice, I would prefer the farms to be on land but after hearing from others on here, including yourself, the logistics as well as other reasons make it far from reality.
To be honest, being a commercial fisherman for the last 30 years I am very naive/ignorant to what the fish farming practices really are. I am in no way an expert on anything to do with any of it. I was hot collared as a commercial guy {along with many others} back in the 90's when we caught some escaped farm fish, thinking that our wild fish were doomed, but in reality we didn't know a bloody thing really, and since then have really not paid any attention to it at all.
One would think that what the general population puts into it's water ways and the over harvesting of fish is the biggest threat to any fish species that are taken for food but who am I, just a dumb ex fisherman I guess. That said I think I should leave it to you experts to continue in your debates.
Have a good one Annie, it's been cool reading your material so far, and BTW, I can't stand that hippy broad. If I hear another Alex Morton this or a Alex Morton that I think I'll puke. She's obviously just a hugger from the Broughtons who instead of going around causing a bunch of BS, should just be happy/grateful she has a serene way of living along with a beautiful place to call home. Maybe it's time we did some more Fife Sound Pollack fishing and really pi$$ her off. ;D ;D ;D
NIce post Bently ;) Seems to me you know more than a lot here..
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I enjoyed your post Bently. Your not the first commercial fisherman I have met that dislikes Morton. I am interested in why specifically you dislike her.
Im gonna quote AF from another thread and Forum where he's in favor of Enbridge, which really puzzles me as I think that Enbridge is far more important than this fish farm spectacle.
So heres the quote "You are obviously not willing to accept any risk, probably because you do not understand the benefits of developing a secondary market for our oil. Without an appreciation for the need to export the oil, I can understand your position."
Awesome!!! AF so busted ;D ;D
Your so funny AF how you are now insisting everybody here stay on topic when it is you who for years has always been changing the topic. But it's typical when a threat, sorry, I mean thread, isn't going your way its nice to just throw in some other fear mongering misinformation. When is the PCB comment coming. You haven't had that chat with annie yet. But you've had it with us soooo many times. Or is it dye. Whats it going to be??? Or maybe your kinda stuck now that your insisting we stay on topic.
Great thread everyone though it's quite obvious that some here wish it would just "go away".
Bwahahahahaa. ;) ;)
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Guess that depends on if your farming farmed "PACIFIC" salmon, or farmed "ATLANTIC" salmon there Annie ;D ;D
Rock on Girl ;) So far you's guys are getting whipped by this lady.
That's if you call being dumb enough to respond to her and the gangs inane responces. Guilty as charged :)
But I'm actually getting both tired and somewhat embarrassed at being a participant, knowing that slope was slippery, of a rather bad thread on poor old Rod's site. If you get another award Annie, hopefully it's for something worthwhile. I'll let you have the last word because I didn't heeds Novabonkers words "don't feed the troll". Maybe Bassonator can come with something notable, but I doubt it. :-\
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But I'm actually getting both tired and somewhat embarrassed at being a participant, knowing that slope was slippery
Sorry you're leaving tb. Sure you can do that? ;D
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But I'm actually getting both tired and somewhat embarrassed at being a participant, knowing that slope was slippery, of a rather bad thread on poor old Rod's site. If you get another award Annie, hopefully it's for something worthwhile. I'll let you have the last word because I didn't heeds Novabonkers words "don't feed the troll". Maybe Bassonator can come with something notable, but I doubt it. Undecided
Whats going on here??? That sounds like Absolon!!!
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That's if you call being dumb enough to respond to her and the gangs inane responces. Guilty as charged :)
But I'm actually getting both tired and somewhat embarrassed at being a participant, knowing that slope was slippery, of a rather bad thread on poor old Rod's site. If you get another award Annie, hopefully it's for something worthwhile. I'll let you have the last word because I didn't heeds Novabonkers words "don't feed the troll". Maybe Bassonator can come with something notable, but I doubt it. :-\
Like I said when they cannot respond with something worthwhile they resort to ridicule. And again if you and AF like to ridicule people you should man up and use your real names. I take it your embarassment comes from the fact you twice put your foot in your mouth bigtime regarding me . ;D ;D ;D And I am very proud of that award thank you :)
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TB please come back, your posts make me smile.... :) :) :) :).......see.
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take the b out of bassinator.
Wow that took a while eh Troutbreath... :D
Oh and you might wanna check the spelling, just a heads up..... :o :o :o... ;D
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Wow..this thread just took off big time since I have been gone. Nice to be back and see Annie still here giving her opponents hell. I see Annie has got broken into AF's circular arguements. Too much to comment on all at once, but after reading AF's comments on the sampling of information from farms it appears he does not understand. First it is important to note the part he skips over:
“This represents all the major Atlantic salmon operations and many of the Pacific salmon operations. The five remaining facilities are smaller operations producing mainly Chinook salmon.”
Second, it is important to have the “actual report” to see what was done by the province if the province is being reference:
http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/Fish_Health_Report_2009.pdf
Pay close attention to Page 7 and Page 9. AF, if you are going to be critical of the way the province did it’s sampling of BC fish farms then you should become a little more familiar with it instead of just regurgitating the same old rhetoric time and time again.
Weighting is not an uncommon way to sample. In this case, it makes more sense to concentrate on active farms than non-active farms or farms that have low contribution. It was likely done because resources to conduct more detailed audits were limited, but you can always ask them. In my opinion, it makes more sense to put limited resources where most of the fish are – not the smaller operations where there are either very few fish or no fish. In all our best efforts, for any biological work, it is often not possible to get to every individual angler, fish or whatever…..and we do not have unlimited money and staff to do it. That is why sampling is often required. Do you think an angler census gets to every angler? They try, but the odds are they will not. That’s why they develop a sampling methodology to get the best information possible with what resources they have. This type of weighted sampling is done for commercial fisheries, so it is not some unusual thing. People need to stop listening to Morton about this because she is incorrect in her assessment. I find it hilarious that Ms Morton would be critical of how the province conducted this sampling considering the very obvious flaws in her sampling lately. By the way, where are those latest lab results? Maybe she is hiding something? Works both ways.
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That's if you call being dumb enough to respond to her and the gangs inane responces. Guilty as charged :)
But I'm actually getting both tired and somewhat embarrassed at being a participant, knowing that slope was slippery, of a rather bad thread on poor old Rod's site. If you get another award Annie, hopefully it's for something worthwhile. I'll let you have the last word because I didn't heeds Novabonkers words "don't feed the troll". Maybe Bassonator can come with something notable, but I doubt it. :-\
If you get another award Annie, hopefully it's for something worthwhile...........................Since we are all sharing perhaps you can tell us what awards you've won recently ? ::) ::) ::)
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If you get another award Annie, hopefully it's for something worthwhile...........................Since we are all sharing perhaps you can tell us what awards you've won recently ? ::) ::) ::)
;D ;D ;D
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/f2512853_Golden-Troll-Award.jpg)
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Wouldnt have expected anything less from you Nova, you always bring such insight to our discussions, oh and by the way if you look up the definition of internet troll, you seem to fit the bill to a tee, so think before you post.
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In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."
The above is a description of a troll. If some here are having a emotional reaction it is their choice. Annie is new here but I do not see much of a change in the discussion. She may be fairly aggressive but I would say she is only matching the intensity put forth by those who appose her views and are doing so without posting information or links that appose her views. According to the description of a troll I put above nova's last post is a troll itself and serves no purpose or and is basically only a disruption to the discussion. Its a pathetic choice of response IMO but expected from previous accounts.
Annie, I never signed your petition for a couple of reasons. First off, online petitions are just week in my opinion and second I didn't see the point in petitioning an act that is already illegal. To me it seemed like petitioning to stop drinking and driving which is already really really bad anyways. Now that I have met you and see that it was a sarcastic statement I better understand its purpose. I did like it when I read it though. I thought it was sweet, just not my bag, thats all.
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(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/imagesqtbnANd9GcTgAO6WFB-oaP-3L0Mg3kD1xQJkPeyQ8KTm09ifjuSJo5jXFt6b0FlWrmzDCA.jpg)
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In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."
The above is a description of a troll. If some here are having a emotional reaction it is their choice. Annie is new here but I do not see much of a change in the discussion. She may be fairly aggressive but I would say she is only matching the intensity put forth by those who appose her views and are doing so without posting information or links that appose her views. According to the description of a troll I put above nova's last post is a troll itself and serves no purpose or and is basically only a disruption to the discussion. Its a pathetic choice of response IMO but expected from previous accounts.
Annie, I never signed your petition for a couple of reasons. First off, online petitions are just week in my opinion and second I didn't see the point in petitioning an act that is already illegal. To me it seemed like petitioning to stop drinking and driving which is already really really bad anyways. Now that I have met you and see that it was a sarcastic statement I better understand its purpose. I did like it when I read it though. I thought it was sweet, just not my bag, thats all.
I was well aware when I posted the petition it would serve no purpose as far as stopping Morton goes. What it did achieve though was to get the Morton bunch so cranked they immediately started slagging me in every venue they have giving me a lot of opportunities to respond.. The thing is when you poke them they get really silly and make some pretty ridiculous claims. In my opinion they made real fools of themselves and showed their true colours . One party went so far as to call me the c word which as far as I'm concerned just demonstrated royally the mentality of Morton supporters. I agree online petitions are a total waste of time which is evident by the fact Cost-Co and Safeway are still selling farmed salmon in spite of Morton's petition claiming to have found diseased salmon in grocery stores. Funny thing though it was Super Store and some Chinese grocery store she originally claimed to have found diseased fish in so why Cost-Co and Safeway ? I assume it's because they are bigger corporations and perhaps more high profile with bigger customer bases. They will probably continue to sell farmed salmon too because there is a public demand for it and 12,000 signatures on some hippy petition is pretty irrelevant to big corps . It also got Clan Chief Harold Sewid to make a public statement for the first time regarding FF in Kwakiutl territory that being the Broughton. That really p'd them off because Morton forever has her trusty servant Bob Chamberlain at her side claiming there is NO First Nations's support for FF in the Broughton. Truth is two chiefs from the area are actively involved in the industry and have been for several years. Bob Chamberlain does not represent the entire Broughton as far as FN's goes. That somewhat took the wind out of Morton's sails. I don't regret for a moment my sarcastic response to yet another stupid Morton crusade against FF. I'm quite used to the name calling and ridicule from the anti crowd and when they resort to it I only see it as a demonstration of their intelligence or perhaps lack of.
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In my opinion they made real fools of themselves and showed their true colours .
Hopefully you recognize that you did exactly the same thing when you published that silly petition Annie... ???
My father once said "Always be careful when you point a finger at someone.... because you will have 3 fingers pointing back at you."
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Hopefully you recognize that you did exactly the same thing when you published that silly petition Annie... ???
My father once said "Always be careful when you point a finger at someone.... because you will have 3 fingers pointing back at you."
Same could be said of Morton's petition. You still don't get the petition started as sarcasm regarding Morton's petition. That horse your beating is pretty well used up don't you think ?
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Playing the victim card here doesn't wash. I feel bad about the c word thing, but it wasn't me, and I'm sorry you don't have a funnybone.For the most part, recreational anglers also are concern for the environment. Remember Stan "Two Fish " Hagan when he stood in front of the legislature and proclaimed that only 2 Atlantic salmon had ever escaped, or John Van Dongen forgiving fines and warning about inspections? All crap and cover up. That is a salient fact. Also, it's a salient fact that fish farms pollute, if it's from feces or chemical introduction, anti fouling agents, or any number of other things. Undeniable. Some of the sites are in poor positions. Simple fact. How much more protein does it take to farm a salmon by the time it hits the market? I could go on, but that's enough to make my point. The industry history in wiping out wild stocks elsewhere. Credibility issues abound.
Now first you start a petition as a "joke" and then come and post all sorts of links - that are written by the salmon farming industry and expect everyone to believe it's the gospel truth. The flat earth society could provide me with a trove of links too. Do you believe the earth is flat?You're selling ice in Inuvik in January. Or furnaces in Pheonix in July. You can argue with AF for the next decade, been there, done that. His head is as hard as mine. I don't comprehend what you expected- the red rug and flower petals littering your path?
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Same could be said of Morton's petition. You still don't get the petition started as sarcasm regarding Morton's petition. That horse your beating is pretty well used up don't you think ?
He obviously has nothing more to add to the topic that is relevant, thus the reason for him trying to attack your posts like he has of late {pathetic really}.
AF, I suggest you try and at least come up with some intelligent dialogue instead of blatantly being a "sore loser". Just cause one has different opinions and beliefs than others doesn't mean you have to lower your level like you have been lately. Grow some nads sonnyboy{that's what MY dad used to tell me}. ;)
Just saying, please don't take it too personal. ;D
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Playing the victim card here doesn't wash. I feel bad about the c word thing, but it wasn't me, and I'm sorry you don't have a funnybone.For the most part, recreational anglers also are concern for the environment. Remember Stan "Two Fish " Hagan when he stood in front of the legislature and proclaimed that only 2 Atlantic salmon had ever escaped, or John Van Dongen forgiving fines and warning about inspections? All crap and cover up. That is a salient fact. Also, it's a salient fact that fish farms pollute, if it's from feces or chemical introduction, anti fouling agents, or any number of other things. Undeniable. Some of the sites are in poor positions. Simple fact. How much more protein does it take to farm a salmon by the time it hits the market? I could go on, but that's enough to make my point. The industry history in wiping out wild stocks elsewhere. Credibility issues abound.
Now first you start a petition as a "joke" and then come and post all sorts of links - that are written by the salmon farming industry and expect everyone to believe it's the gospel truth. The flat earth society could provide me with a trove of links too. Do you believe the earth is flat?You're selling ice in Inuvik in January. Or furnaces in Pheonix in July. You can argue with AF for the next decade, been there, done that. His head is as hard as mine. I don't comprehend what you expected- the red rug and flower petals littering your path?
And how is that any different than the posts AF and Chris post on here.....like I said before comprehend before you post.
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And how is that any different than the posts AF and Chris post on here.....like I said before comprehend before you post.
And how is that different than you and the posse's posts? ???
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And how is that different than you and the posse's posts? ???
Blah Blah Blah, this isn't worth the read anymore with this kinda BS, put up or shut up, all of ya. Oh sorry...please ;D
TOPIC.....TOPIC.....TOPIC.....TOPIC.....!!!!!!!!
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Playing the victim card here doesn't wash. I feel bad about the c word thing, but it wasn't me, and I'm sorry you don't have a funnybone.For the most part, recreational anglers also are concern for the environment. Remember Stan "Two Fish " Hagan when he stood in front of the legislature and proclaimed that only 2 Atlantic salmon had ever escaped, or John Van Dongen forgiving fines and warning about inspections? All crap and cover up. That is a salient fact. Also, it's a salient fact that fish farms pollute, if it's from feces or chemical introduction, anti fouling agents, or any number of other things. Undeniable. Some of the sites are in poor positions. Simple fact. How much more protein does it take to farm a salmon by the time it hits the market? I could go on, but that's enough to make my point. The industry history in wiping out wild stocks elsewhere. Credibility issues abound.
Now first you start a petition as a "joke" and then come and post all sorts of links - that are written by the salmon farming industry and expect everyone to believe it's the gospel truth. The flat earth society could provide me with a trove of links too. Do you believe the earth is flat?You're selling ice in Inuvik in January. Or furnaces in Pheonix in July. You can argue with AF for the next decade, been there, done that. His head is as hard as mine. I don't comprehend what you expected- the red rug and flower petals littering your path?
Sorry not playing the victim card. Fail to see how you perceive my comment about the c word that way. Just stating a fact. Real men don't need to insult a woman to feel like a man and only a real looser would call any woman such a name in a public forum. :o As for not having a sense of humour far from true. Everyone of your little jokes has cracked me right up. I like someone who can be quick on the draw . I certainly never entered a sports fishing forum with the idea a group of anglers would especially welcome a woman either. I was told by a friend there was a forum with three pages of comments about my petition so I stole a glance and decided it was necessary to clear up some obvious misconceptions. I have no problem if you share a different opinion we live in a democracy after all. What I do have a problem with is the continuous BS put out by Morton. Her impassioned letter to cermaq video on You-Tube is a hoot. She no longer studies whales because there are none. Sure wouldn't know that by the number of videos my husband brings home of breaching whales and enormous schools of dolphins. She no longer studies whales because they weren't financially lucrative like fish farm activism has proven to be. As for being hardheaded you haven't clued in yet that I am as well ?? ???
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Maybe the appropriate petition now would be one to get Mrs. Morton to release the lab results from her latest claim. Or a petition to make into law for NGO's making claims based on lab reports
to actually show the lab report? Seems like a no brainer to me for a "biologist" to behave in such a manor. But this is not the case with Morton. ???
I may even sign it ;D
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Maybe a the appropriate petition now would be one to get Mrs. Morton to release the lab results from her latest claim. Or petition to make into law for NGO's making claims based on lab reports have to actually show the lab report?
I may even sign it ;D
X2
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Maybe the appropriate petition now would be one to get Mrs. Morton to release the lab results from her latest claim. Or a petition to make into law for NGO's making claims based on lab reports
to actually show the lab report? Seems like a no brainer to me for a "biologist" to behave in such a manor. But this is not the case with Morton. ???
I may even sign it ;D
Great idea! I'm sure Annie can help you put together the wording on a new petition....... You'll probably want to tell us in advance that the petition is a joke, as it will save explaining that later..... :)
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Great idea! I'm sure Annie can help you put together the wording on a new petition....... You'll probably want to tell us in advance that the petition is a joke, as it will save explaining that later..... :)
Hey your the one that thought it warranted being put in a sportie forum remember ?
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Maybe the appropriate petition now would be one to get Mrs. Morton to release the lab results from her latest claim. Or a petition to make into law for NGO's making claims based on lab reports
to actually show the lab report? Seems like a no brainer to me for a "biologist" to behave in such a manor. But this is not the case with Morton. ???
I may even sign it ;D
Great idea, but I would think that the ol' hippy already has the "LIE" she'll come up with to answer that one, hehe, probably got it plasticized and behind a maple leafs fridge magnet already. ;D
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Great idea, but I would think that the ol' hippy already has the "LIE" she'll come up with to answer that one, hehe, probably got it plasticized and behind a maple leafs fridge magnet already. ;D
She keeps saying Dr Fred Kibenge at the OIE lab is doing her testing but the OIE website doesn't confirm any of the tests she alleges she had done. Further to that half the diseases she is claiming to have found aren't OIE lab reportable diseases so why are they wasting their time doing testing for her ? As one of two world recognized labs don't they have better things to do than cater to some activist intent on destroying BC Salmon industries ? . And before I get jumped on for that please check the OIE website and look at the drop down list. Her and Routledges latest claim to fame isn't even on the list :o :o :o-http://web.oie.int/wahis/public.php?page=disease_immediate_summary&disease_type=Aquatic&disease_id=160
Earlier this year Routledge was hailed as a SFU statastician now he's a " Fish Population Expert " ??? ??? ??? ??? Seems like Morton he changes his credentials at will.
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Earlier this year Routledge was hailed as a SFU statastician now he's a " Fish Population Expert " ??? ??? ??? ??? Seems like Morton he changes his credentials at will.
That's hilarious, it's as funny as Morton being called a "scientist" ::) ::) ::)
Grandfather ticket, Smandfather ticket ::) ::) ::) I find absolutely nothing "honorable" in this. I've done many things in life and am pretty damn good at some, but I still had to go through the rigamarole to get the proper credentials for the ones I wanted the most.
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That's hilarious, it's as funny as Morton being called a "scientist" ::) ::) ::)
Grandfather ticket, Smandfather ticket ::) ::) ::) I find absolutely nothing "honorable" in this. I've done many things in life and am pretty damn good at some, but I still had to go through the rigamarole to get the proper credentials for the ones I wanted the most.
"We found it because we looked. It's as simple as that. I think it's really serious and sometimes I feel desperate that the province isn't taking this more seriously, and the federal government. They should be," Routledge stated.
They found it because they looked. :-\ Question is why were they looking for something that a fish disease expert says has no connection to disease anyway ?
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Question is why were they looking for something that a fish disease expert says has no connection to disease anyway ?
Reminds me of what the tobacco company experts were saying when it was suggested that their product was causing cancer. ::)
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Reminds me of what the tobacco company experts were saying when it was suggested that their product was causing cancer. ::)
Getty up horsey.............. ::) You can't even tell people today when their own family members are dying of cancer from smoking that it kills you !! I once saw a guy with an oxygen bottle set up sitting at a flea market smoking a cigarette while he had tubes up his nose inhaling oxy from a carted bottle . Cigarettes caused his health problem but he'd rather risk an explosion than give em up.
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Yeah I hear ya there took a heart attack in March to get me to quit. 4 mnths smoke free.
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That's hilarious, it's as funny as Morton being called a "scientist" ::) ::) ::)
Grandfather ticket, Smandfather ticket ::) ::) ::) I find absolutely nothing "honorable" in this. I've done many things in life and am pretty damn good at some, but I still had to go through the rigamarole to get the proper credentials for the ones I wanted the most.
http://people.stat.sfu.ca/~routledg/ Routledge's credentials according to SFU.......... Guess the" Fish Population Expert" is a new title recently invented to make it appear he knows what he is talking about. Researching the cause of the demise of Rivers Inlet salmon. I thought most people with any connection to salmon already knew the cause. Bad logging practises and over fishing. Routledge is 25-40 years late for this study.