Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => Fly Fishing Cafe => Topic started by: noobfisher on April 01, 2012, 10:03:34 AM

Title: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: noobfisher on April 01, 2012, 10:03:34 AM
Possible to target cutties and bulltrout with a 5 wt rod on the vedder with a floating line?  Or am I to under gunned with a 9 foot 5 wt?
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: Rp3Flyfisher on April 01, 2012, 11:29:39 AM
Depends where you are going to fish.

If you are fishing in Slower water, you will be fine, but if you hook into a larger Bull in faster water, you may be undergunned!


Cutties, no problem anywhere on the Vedder with a 5wt.

Rick
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: typhoon on April 01, 2012, 04:38:47 PM
Not only where but when. If there is a reasonable probability of hooking something larger then you will be significantly undergunned and will harm the fish.
Sep-May should be off limits for 5wt rods.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: Rp3Flyfisher on April 01, 2012, 05:06:21 PM
Not only where but when. If there is a reasonable probability of hooking something larger then you will be significantly undergunned and will harm the fish.
Sep-May should be off limits for 5wt rods.

Agreed!!!

Rick
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: noobfisher on April 01, 2012, 05:29:50 PM
ok sounds like the 5wt will have to wait :)
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: nickredway on April 02, 2012, 07:50:40 AM
Of course you can fish your five weight, just fish for the appropriate sized species, use a light 6lb or less leader and don't try and play out any steelhead you hook just snap them off.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: typhoon on April 02, 2012, 08:14:53 AM
Of course you can fish your five weight, just fish for the appropriate sized species, use a light 6lb or less leader and don't try and play out any steelhead you hook just snap them off.
So you want him to leave hooks with trailing line in a wild steelhead?
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: nickredway on April 02, 2012, 08:45:53 AM
Yes that's exactly what I want, it's better than playing them to death.If you think that it is "unethical" to target Vedder cutties or bulls with the appropriate tackle and snap off rather than play out any Steelhead hooked then I suggest you take up another hobby, maybe knitting? I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that being hooked as bycatch by a guy fishing a five weight for trout doesn't figure very high in the list of current threats to wild BC Steelhead.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: typhoon on April 02, 2012, 08:55:04 AM
So how many dead wild steelhead due to ignorance is acceptable?
Really, this isn't any different than dragging a wild fish up on the sand before releasing it.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: Noahs Arc on April 02, 2012, 12:36:33 PM
Hey noob buy yourself a back roads map and fill your boots on the many local spots that hold cutthroat and or bulls.
Your chances of hooking steel are greater then hooking a cut on the vedder right now
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: nickredway on April 02, 2012, 05:51:35 PM
So how many dead wild steelhead due to ignorance is acceptable?
Really, this isn't any different than dragging a wild fish up on the sand before releasing it.
That is ridiculous. You are actually arguing that on a river where people can legally target wild steelies with any kind of gear including bait, giant spoons etc that somebody targeting differnt species with trout gear is more of a threat than the mortality caused by people actually targeting steel and that if you do happen to hook into one with trout gear you will do more damage snapping one off with a tiny fry pattern in its yap than playing them out on a 5 weight?
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: typhoon on April 02, 2012, 07:16:18 PM
That is ridiculous. You are actually arguing that on a river where people can legally target wild steelies with any kind of gear including bait, giant spoons etc that somebody targeting differnt species with trout gear is more of a threat than the mortality caused by people actually targeting steel and that if you do happen to hook into one with trout gear you will do more damage snapping one off with a tiny fry pattern in its yap than playing them out on a 5 weight?
Yes, I am saying that. If someone were flossing steelies with 6/0 hooks I would say the same thing.
It's all about intent.
If your intent is to leave hooks and trailing line in wild steelhead then I will call you on it.
If you were intentionally targeting wild steelhead for C and R I would call you on it.
If you drag a wild steelhead up the bank I will call you on it.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: nickredway on April 02, 2012, 07:36:12 PM
It's all about intent? OK so if I am targeting trout with a 4 or 5 weight I am certainly not intending to leave a hook in a steely, in fact I am not even intending to hook a steely and am reasonably unlikely to do so, especially with a floating line, in the unfortunate event that I do I would choose to snap them off rather than play them out as I believe that this is the less harmful of the two options and you think that this is the same as dragging one up on the beach?

On a second point if you a really saying that you will call people out who target wild steel for C and R then you should really take up a different sport, if you are targeting hatchery fish you are targeting wilds end of story!!!!
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: Speyfitter on April 02, 2012, 10:15:34 PM
I think the recommendation to just fish the 5 weight and if you hook into something that you can't comfortably manage to shore in a reasonable time frame that you should break off, is a fair, and good one.

I used to work at a hatchery that has a hatchery steelhead program. We have broodstock anglers who catch steelhead for the hatchery by hook and line.
They would catch a steelhead and put it in a tube with mesh ends obviously so they could not escape but it still allowed water to flow through. They would then tie that tube with a rope, with steelhead in it, to a rock or log in the river in a quiet area of the river and then call us to come get the fish. We would fill up the tote on the back of the truck with water and drive down to the location where the fish was located about a half hour to hour later (keep in mind this fish has already been played by hook and line).
We would hike or walk down, depending on the location of the fish relative to the truck, with a heavy duty back pack. We would fill a heavy duty clear plastic bag with just enough water to submerge the fishes gills only. We would then put the bag inside the back pack. Then we would pick the fish up in tube (we do not take the fish out of the tube) and put the fish in the plastic bag head first, as I just mentiond, so it's gills are submerged so it can breath. Anymore water and the back pack is NOT manageable (a 10 +/- fish plus enough water to submerge the gills is a good sized load. Then the assistant would help mount the pack on the backpackers back. We hiked the fish out of some rough holes sometimes, but that was the nature of what was producing to get broodstock sometimes. And then we would finally get to the truck, we'd rest the backpack on the tailgate, take it off, then dump the fish, still in tube, out of the plastic bag into the tote and then close it and drive to the hatchery. Upon arriving at the hatchery we would throw the fish into a condo and finally remove it from the tube. About 5-15 minutes later we would innoculate the fish with clove oil, take a scale sample, give it a shot (to prevent disease), measure, and weigh the fish along with other pertinent details. The fish, could, at times, be out of the water for up to a minute while knocked out to do these important fish culture duties. We would then put it back into the water in it's condo where it would revive and a day later we would put it in a holding pond with other adult steelhead who have undergone the same thing. A few weeks to a few monthes later, they would again be knocked out with clove oil and live spawned (steelhead and most trout are live spawned, only salmon are generally killed during the fish culture process of egg/milt taking). During the live spawning the fish again could be out of water for up to a minute it seems at times. Their bellies are repeatedly massaged to get as much milt or eggs out for the fish culture process. They are then put back in a condo to revive where they sit over night. A couple days later they are often released as "kelts" back into the river.

So looking at the above ordeal, my expierience has been the fish generally fair much better than we think. During my 3 years involved we typically had a 95+% survival rate from the time we took them to the time we released them.  One very important factor when handlng fish is water temperature; colder temperatures have higher oxygen levels often times, at least in rivers. My boss had a rule that we wouldn't start taking fish for the broodstock program until the river temperature was less than 10 degrees celsius.
Certainly proper handlng techniques and respect are deserved by the fish from us but they are quite hearty - heartier than we give them credit for. 

So I don't see any problem with going out to target bulls & trout, and if you manage to hook into a steelhead, well use your common sense. But I'm not going to get wound up about a wild steelhead floating around with a hook in it's mouth. At the same time, use your head. It's not gonna make your **** bigger if you land a big steelhead on a 5 weight rod. There is no shame in pointing and breaking off. I would give you a landed status if you told me you hooked one and broke it off as far as I'm concerned. Count that as one on your belt if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: typhoon on April 03, 2012, 01:34:32 AM
It's all about intent? OK so if I am targeting trout with a 4 or 5 weight I am certainly not intending to leave a hook in a steely, in fact I am not even intending to hook a steely and am reasonably unlikely to do so, especially with a floating line, in the unfortunate event that I do I would choose to snap them off rather than play them out as I believe that this is the less harmful of the two options and you think that this is the same as dragging one up on the beach?

On a second point if you a really saying that you will call people out who target wild steel for C and R then you should really take up a different sport, if you are targeting hatchery fish you are targeting wilds end of story!!!!

Well by all means, fill your boots. Be sure to post your hero shots on here and flybc. I'm sure everyone will be receptive to your great accomplishment.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: nickredway on April 03, 2012, 07:33:08 AM
Fill my boots with what? How did we get onto hero shots? What accomplishments? I don't target trout on the Vedder I target Steelies with the appropriate gear, it just happens that I don't agree with your opinion that it is somehow unethical to target trout and char on the Vedder with the appropriate gear for them and it is also my opinion that you are better off snapping something you can't land in a decent time rather than playing it to for too long, if it was a smaller fish in slower water you could land in it acceptable time if you know what you are doing but I wouldn't give that advice to a new fisher as I have seen plenty of people letting an smaller steelies run all over the place for 15 minutes until it was belly up using steelhead gear this year. I am not suggesting for a moment that people deliberately target bigger species with trout gear and then just snap them off and likewise every time I see some hero chasing a big chum or spring down river with a 5 or 6 weight I feel like booting them in. It's not 5wts that are the problem it's some of the idiots who use them, my advice is use your common sense.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: James on April 03, 2012, 02:29:14 PM
i caught two trout , about 8-12" while targeting steel with a pink worm .... so go figure .

fwiw , to the orig. poster , go trout fishing with your 5wt . it is legal , you are very very unlikely to catch a steelhead .

I target trout on the vedder/ chillwack at all times of the year ( when regs allow ) Never have I had a by-catch of some sort .
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: Sandman on April 03, 2012, 06:59:20 PM
So you want him to leave hooks with trailing line in a wild steelhead?

A fly snaps off at the end of the leader, so there is no trailing line.  Just a fly that will probably fall out or rust out quickly.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: colin6101 on April 03, 2012, 07:10:44 PM
I use a five weight on the vedder every second September to catch pinks and have never had to fight one for longer then 3-4 minutes. I only fish this in the canal section though and use six pound tippet so I could easily break off larger fish if necessary. 
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: DanJohn on April 09, 2012, 12:00:31 AM
Really, as much as I dont like the idea of a steelhead floating around with a fly in its mouth, nor is it a good idea to play a fish for 20 minutes because youre using a 4X leader, I have to say this whole thread is full of crap.

1 I dont know what you use to target trout, but I like a 4X leader, maybe a 3 if I have biggish flies to entice cutties with. The largest hook I use is a 6 because the particular fly I like and find productive only comes in a 6. I prefer an 8 or 10, even a 12. Ive taken 2 pound fish on all these sizes. I imagine a 6-18 pound steelhead on one of these hooks will not be hooked deep. At least, not as deep as some smaller trout.

2 Hooks pop out quite easily. As long as the barb is pinched, I honestly cannot see how a size 6-10 hook will hold in the mouth of a steelhead in fast water after a couple headshakes/runs. I understand when playing a fish you will have the tension of the line wanting to pull the hook, but a small hook left in a large fish cant be there for very long. I could be wrong, but that leads to point 3.

3 Even if a hook is left in a fish, and there is the potential for harm to the fish, it IS the lesser of two evils. There is potential of harm, vs the very real harm and stress caused by playing the fish for too long on weak gear. I agree that it isnt a GOOD thing, but its a hell of a lot better scenario than killing the fish due to stress. But hey, if anyone is so worried about the semantics of this vs that and harm to the fish, why fish? Why not just leave them alone. Crap happens, we do what we can to cause the least harm, but that doesnt mean harm isnt always avoided.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: BCfisherman97 on April 10, 2012, 12:22:40 PM
Heard of some steelies being taken in some sloughs while cutty fishing, on 4 wt's
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: Rp3Flyfisher on April 10, 2012, 12:58:24 PM
I really didn't want to get into this pissing contest but..........


Look, plain and simple, you can fist a 3wt on the Vedder if you want, its your call, there are no regs that state that you must use a 7 wt while fishing on the Vedder. Now, that being said, for the health of the fishery, I suggest that if you are going to be fishing a 3-6wt rod, that you use a lighter tippet so that the larger fish can be broken off. Again, when fly fishing for Steelhead, you are normally using larger patterns with larger hooks than you would be using when going after cutties.

I fish the Vedder quite often using a 4 or 5wt rod, but I also don't use size 6,4,2,0 hooks and 10-15lb tippet. I use smaller size 14, 12, 10 flies and 4-5lb tippet. If i get B.S Lucky and hook into a Steelhead while chasing cutties, i will point the rod at it, and give it a pull snapping it off. If you are using the correct tippit and correct size hook, you will snap it off close to the fly and the fly is of such a small size that it will not interfere with the movement of the Fish. Also, many times when breaking a smaller fly off in a smaller fish, the fly will fall out rather quickly.

I don't like the fact that there may be a Steelhead swimming around with my fly in it's yap, but it is better than the alternative, playing it half to death. I fish for EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, so i just make sure that i use the correct equipment for the species that I am targeting. With the opinions of a few here, they are saying that you should not be fishing for cutties, Bows, etc....with anything less than a 7wt because there are Steelhead  in the system, so that means when the Pinks run (I use a 6 wt) I need to use a 9wt because there are Springs in the system at the same time?

Besides all that, when  chase cutties on the Vedder, I sure the hell ain't going to the same places I chase Steelhead!!!!

Learn to know what size rod to use with the appropriate tippet and fly size to target the species you are after and all this can be avoided. USE COMMON SENCE!

 I want to protect the Steelhead as well, but having a small cuttie fly in it's yap is no worse than having all the hook pricks from missed hookups and "Wild" Steelhead releases!!

Just my 2 cents

Rick
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: Sandman on April 11, 2012, 08:07:11 PM
I'll say it again, because I CAN piss further. A fly snapped off is not likely going to cause any problems for the fish.  The tippet will snap at the fly as that knot is weaker than the knots joining the tippet to the leader or the leader to the flyline, so there is no "trailing line."  This is different than a bait set up where the bait loop (egg loop) knot is probably stronger than the knot tying the leader to the swivel, causing you to loose the whole leader when you snap it off.  Furthermore, the fly left in the fish's mouth, is not likely going to cause any problems as it will usually fall out quickly, especially since it is barbless, but even if it doesn't, there is little problem it can cause.  That 14 pound steelhead that I landed on a large squidro fly, had a large pink jig in its mouth, again with no line trailing, and from the looks of the fly, it was not in there long.  This fish, with a fly in its mouth, had no problem chowing down on another a short time later.
Title: Re: 5 wt on the vedder?
Post by: milo on April 12, 2012, 11:35:56 PM
So how many dead wild steelhead due to ignorance is acceptable?
Really, this isn't any different than dragging a wild fish up on the sand before releasing it.

 Don't be silly, typhoon. Breaking off an incidental large catch when you are undergunned is indeed the right choice for an ethical angler to make. I am not sure about the actual numbers, but my fishing buddies and I break off quite a few chinook and chum when fly fishing for coho. I sure as hell hope you do the same (unless you target coho with at least a 9-weight).