Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Novabonker on October 17, 2011, 02:30:30 PM

Title: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Novabonker on October 17, 2011, 02:30:30 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/10/17/bc-isa-infects-salmon.html


Experts say a highly infectious virus found in wild salmon on B.C.'s central coast could have a devastating impact on the province's wild salmon and herring.

Simon Fraser University Prof. Rick Routledge discovered the disease known as Infectious Salmon Anemia, or ISA, in two of 48 sockeye smolts collected.

The infection was diagnosed by Dr. Fred Kibenge, an employee at the Atlantic Veterinary College in P.E.I., who notified the CFIA.

Routledge, who's doing a long-term study on the collapse of Rivers Inlet sockeye, says the exotic disease could have a devastating impact on wild salmon in B.C.

Alexandra Morton, a biologist and long-time critic of salmon farms in the Broughton Archipelago, says the European strain of the virus could only have come from the farmed Atlantic salmon in the area.

Routledge says the possible impact of the virus can't be taken lightly and there must be an immediate response to assess the extent of the outbreak and the possible source.

A statement issued by the B.C. Salmon Farmers said the CFIA has yet to confirm the finding, but the disease would not likely affect wild Pacific salmon stocks like it affects Atlantic salmon, which are raised on West Coast salmon farms

"Farm-raised Atlantic salmon, unlike their Pacific cousins, are susceptible to ISA, so this is a concern for our operations, but much less likely to be an issue for the different Pacific species," said Stewart Hawthorn, managing director for Grieg Seafood in a statement released on Monday.

"If these results are valid, this could be a threat to our business and the communities that rely on our productive industry."
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bavarian Raven on October 17, 2011, 06:33:14 PM
i was just going to post this ::)
you beat me 2 it  >:(
eitherway, interesting article :)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: fic on October 17, 2011, 08:03:33 PM
My wife just watched the news on TV and said our son is not allowed to consume the salmon I catch anymore.  Is this over reaction? ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Athezone on October 17, 2011, 08:44:52 PM
Hey fic I'll take any salmon your family can't eat. One can't be too careful these days and I'd only be to happy to take the risk if it will spare your family any agony cus' I know your'e a Great guy. My number's 603-000-2200 and just say, is Athezone there so I know it's you.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Novabonker on October 18, 2011, 06:41:30 AM
Go to the CKNW audio vault around 4ish yesterday and  listen to the interview.


And the esteemed Mr. Gadsen ALWAYS beats anyone to it.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: dennisK on October 18, 2011, 06:56:57 AM
My wife just watched the news on TV and said our son is not allowed to consume the salmon I catch anymore.  Is this over reaction? ???

Only if your son is a herring or a wild salmon.

Did you read the article. Here, the bold may help.

"Experts say a highly infectious virus found in wild salmon on B.C.'s central coast could have a devastating impact on the province's wild salmon and herring."
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: fic on October 18, 2011, 07:48:08 AM
Only if your son is a herring or a wild salmon.

Did you read the article. Here, the bold may help.

"Experts say a highly infectious virus found in wild salmon on B.C.'s central coast could have a devastating impact on the province's wild salmon and herring."
I guess she's making the comparison of how SARS got started. Looks like I'll be the only one eating that frozen salmon in the freezer.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: BwiBwi on October 18, 2011, 02:08:36 PM
Your wife's over reacting.  ISAV has been around since 1900.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 18, 2011, 02:11:10 PM
I guess she's making the comparison of how SARS got started. Looks like I'll be the only one eating that frozen salmon in the freezer.

It's harmless to humans because it's a fish virus. Infects fish through the gills, not the stomach which likely destroys the virus
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/26/d026p025.pdf (http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/26/d026p025.pdf)
If it's any comfort, every teaspoon of fresh drinking water has about a billion viruses in it, but they don't affect humans because they are adapted to infecting bacteria. Same thing with the ISA virus. SARS was a mammal virus in bats so the leap to humans wasn't very far. So unless your son has gills and is a really, really good swimmer.....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 18, 2011, 02:28:07 PM
http://www.bclocalnews.com/fraser_valley/theprogress/news/132061188.html

 One thing I sent it to Alex's group not DFO that the article said i did. I also put the fish on my license to prevent any problems having it in my possesion, Not sure the legalities of this, I am sure someone will find fault but when gets to my age I donot worry especially when it comes to trying to help save salmon for you younger people, long after I have made my last cast. :-X
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Matt on October 18, 2011, 02:49:42 PM
A european strain of a lethal salmon virus that was overwhelmingly present in Chile's atlantic salmon farms and never seen in the North Pacific, now shows up in wild BC salmon.  Weird.

From the Vancouver Sun:

Wild sockeye salmon from B.C.'s Rivers Inlet have tested positive for a potentially devastating virus that has never been found before in the North Pacific.

Infectious salmon anemia is a flu-like virus affecting Atlantic salmon that spreads very quickly and mutates easily, according to Simon Fraser University fisheries statistician Rick Routledge.

ISA can be fatal to Atlantic salmon, especially those confined in fish farms. Its effect on wild sockeye is unknown.

The virus detected in sockeye smolts by the Atlantic Veterinary College in P.E.I. — Canada's ISA reference lab — is the European strain of ISA, the same virus that devastated fish farms in Chile four years ago.

"It is described as highly contagious and lethal," said Routledge, who had underweight Pacific sockeye sent for testing at the suggestion of B.C. salmon biologist Alexandra Morton.

Of the 48 fish sent for testing, two were found to have the virus.

Morton had raised concerns about the possible presence of the virus in B.C. after seeing Ministry of Agriculture and Lands disease reports describing "classic" ISA-like lesions in farmed salmon. An investigation by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency found no risk of ISA at the sites identified by Morton, who dismissed the inquiry as "little more than a phone call."

More than 4,700 tissue tests for ISA were conducted on B.C. farmed salmon over the past eight years and every one has come back negative, according to Ian Roberts, a spokesman for B.C.'s largest salmon farming company, Marine Harvest. Another 65 tests conducted in the past quarter were also negative.

"As far as we know [Marine Harvest] is clean of this disease and we want to keep it that way," said company environmental officer Clare Backman. "Just because it is present in these Pacific salmon doesn't mean it's a health issue ... Pacific salmon are not as affected by ISA as Atlantic salmon."

ISA has been found in wild Atlantic salmon in Nova Scotia's Bay of Fundy, a fish population that is depressed and on the verge of extinction, Routledge said.

"There is really no information on the impact it could have on Pacific sockeye salmon, which is where we found it," he said.

Like the flu in humans, ISA can exist in a relatively benign form and then mutate into a more deadly version of itself, Routledge said.

The juvenile fish that tested positive were migrating down Rivers Inlet, a sport fishing destination 100 km north of Vancouver Island, from Owikeno Lake. The smolts likely contracted the disease from adult spawners returning to the lake or from their parents, Routledge opined.

"That means the virus has been around for several years," he said. "The only plausible source of this virus is fish farms."

DNA testing on the virus could help determine its source, he said.

B.C.'s aquaculture industry has imported more than 30 million Atlantic salmon eggs over the past 25 years, mainly from Iceland, the United States and Ireland, according to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

ISA is usually found in Atlantic salmon, though it can also infect herring. The virus devastated fish farms in Chile in 2007 and 2008, killing millions of fish and resulting in the closure of both fish farms and processing plants. Fish farms in Scotland and Norway have also suffered lethal outbreaks, according to Morton.

"The New York Times reported from Chile that the Chilean aquaculture industry suffered more than $2 billion in losses," Morton said. An investigation by scientists from the University of Bergen concluded that Atlantic salmon eggs imported to Chile from Norway were likely the source of the virus.

Suspected cases of ISA must be reported to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency under new regulations introduced in January 2011. Confirmed cases must be reported to the World Organisation of Animal Health.

The CFIA is investigating the P.E.I. lab's positive test results, but has not yet confirmed the diagnosis of ISA.



Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Wild+salmon+test+positive+lethal+virus+linked+fish+farms/5562482/story.html#ixzz1bAkyoRSK
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: kaolinite on October 18, 2011, 02:56:35 PM
and so it begins
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: bigblockfox on October 18, 2011, 03:07:34 PM
sad, i hope there is still fishing oppertunities for my children one day. :'(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: ChumChaser on October 18, 2011, 04:39:34 PM
Scary stuff, we are play with fire having fish farms up and down our coast. Hope this doesn't turn into a major disaster and reek havoc on our already stressed salmon populations.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: awurban@msn.com on October 18, 2011, 05:25:46 PM
another reason fish farming doesn't belong in bc. We have to fight to keep our fish wild too, farmed fish and hatchery fish with smaller gene pools are more susceptible to disease
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Matt on October 18, 2011, 06:14:44 PM
another reason fish farming doesn't belong in bc. We have to fight to keep our fish wild too, farmed fish and hatchery fish with smaller gene pools are more susceptible to disease

Close confinement is the big reason for disease in farmed fish.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: IronNoggin on October 22, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
"The Harper government, which on Thursday described as "inconclusive" tests showing British Columbia wild sockeye salmon have been infected with a potentially devastating virus, isn't taking the matter as seriously as top politicians in the U.S., the House of Commons was told Thursday."

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/senators+raise+alarm+over+sockeye+virus/5582994/story.html

Not at all surprised by the Minister's handling of the matter:
- "the disease has "never been found" in B.C. farmed salmon"
- his "department has tested wild salmon three times this year. All three tests were negative."
- "the positive results for the two salmon from B.C.'s Rivers Inlet... are "far from conclusive."


Basically Move along, Nothing to see here.   ::)
Let's hope that the "further tests" he alludes to aren't simply going through the motions towards a preordained, Agenda driven conclusion...

Accountability if this goes as many believe it will? Well... One can dream I suppose. Damn hard for me to imagine politicians (past & present), the least accountable Federal Ministry there is in Canada, and the Offshore Proponents EVER facing that particular brand of music. Then again, perhaps I am in error in this particular instance...  ???

More on the American Response:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/science/20salmon.html?_r=2&ref=science

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/deadly-salmon-virus-raises-concerns-us-canada-14765021

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44952384/ns/us_news-environment/t/salmon-virus-raises-concerns-us-canada/#.TqMMB7KyBpx

Nog
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: IronNoggin on October 22, 2011, 01:02:53 PM
U.S. Senate approved investigation and response plan for virus outbreak in British Columbia salmon

Posted by Mark Yuasa

It didn't take long for the U.S. Senate to back an investigation into the potentially deadly salmon virus that appeared in two juvenile salmon in British Columbia.

Here is a press release that came out of Senator Maria Cantwell's (D-WA) office today (Oct. 21):

During a long session that went into the early morning hours, the U.S. Senate approved a bipartisan amendment authored by Senator Maria Cantwell (D-WA) that calls for an investigation and rapid response plan to prevent the spread of a potentially deadly salmon virus.
The virus, which was recently found for the first time in Pacific wild salmon, may pose a threat to the Pacific Northwest salmon fishing industry and the coastal economies that rely on it. The virus does not pose a threat to human health.

The bipartisan amendment was backed by Senators Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), Mark Begich (D-AK), Patty Murray (D-WA), Ron Wyden (D-OR), Jeff Merkley (D-OR), Barbara Boxer (D-CA), and Dianne Feinstein (D-CA).

The amendment, introduced October 19th to the pending appropriations bill (H.R. 2112), calls on the National Aquatic Animal Health Task Force to evaluate the risk the virus could have on wild salmon off West Coast and Alaskan waters, and to develop a plan to address this emerging threat. The minibus appropriations bill - including Cantwell's accepted amendment - is scheduled for a final vote in the Senate during the week of October 31.

"We thought it was very important that this amendment pass tonight because scientists are calling it a disease emergency. That is, that the Pacific Northwest wild salmon might be threatened by a virus that has already decimated fish farm salmon from around the world," Cantwell said on the Senate floor. "We cannot risk having this impact the Pacific Northwest wild salmon."
"It's tens of thousands of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars as it relates to our economy. ...We need an action plan immediately and we need to make sure that we are formulating a rapid response to what to do if we do detect that this virus is spreading with the potential impact that we've seen in other areas."

Cantwell's complete remarks as delivered follow:

Madame President.
In that en bloc group of amendments was an important Amendment 893 that was sponsored by my colleagues from the Northwest, obviously myself, Senator Murray, Senator Wyden, Senator Merkley, Senator Boxer and Senator Feinstein.
And we thought it was very important that this amendment pass tonight because scientists are calling it a disease emergency. That is that the Pacific Northwest wild salmon might be threatened by a virus that has already decimated fish farm salmon from around the world.

So we want to see, first of all, important scientific questions answered about the impacts of this virus and the threat that they pose to Pacific Northwest salmon.

Second, we want to make sure there is an aggressive management plan and an effective rapid response plan to deal with the threat of this virus.

And third we want to make sure that we are protecting wild salmon and the important economy that goes with it.

I know many people know the Northwest as known for a healthy salmon population but this salmon population is also an economy for us. It's tens of thousands of jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars as it relates to our economy.
So being able to detect this virus and make sure that we are assessing the potential threat to the wild salmon population is something that we want to see happen immediately.

This makes sure that the task force, that is a joint task force already in place between National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), works effectively in a very short time period to make sure that we are getting this accurate assessment.

As I mentioned this virus in the farm fish population around the world, in Chile and other places, has decimated salmon. We cannot risk having this impact the Pacific Northwest wild salmon.

So we need answers quickly from the scientific community. We need an action plan immediately. And we need to make sure that we are formulating a rapid response for what to do if we do detect this virus is spreading with the potential impact that we've seen in other areas.

So I thank my colleagues for making sure that this amendment is passed tonight. I know that Senator Murkowski had planned earlier to talk about this and I want to thank Senator Hutchinson from Texas for helping us move this along in the process.

I hope now as we move this legislation that we will also get the cooperation from NOAA and Secretary Lubchenco and others to make sure that we are responding very rapidly to this very, very serious, what people have called the scientific need, to get these questions answered as soon as possible.

I thank the President and I yield the floor.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on October 26, 2011, 07:24:15 AM
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/a-salmon-virus-where-do-we-go-from-here/ (http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/a-salmon-virus-where-do-we-go-from-here/)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 26, 2011, 10:32:11 AM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"ISA virus variant detected in Aysen" (FIS, 26th October): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&country=0&special=&monthyear=&day=&id=47090&ndb=1&df=0

 

"Industry seems to know more about the ISA virus in BC" (Alexandra Morton, 26th October): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/10/industry-seems-to-know-more-about-the-isavirus-in-bc-.html

 

"'Frankenfish' concern international delegation: Genetically-modified salmon could pose health and environmental hazards, groups says" (CBC, 26th October): http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/10/25/nb-genetically-modified-salmon-campaign.html

 

"Anglesey fish farm Selonda UK admits coast pollution" (BBC News, 26th October): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-15457445

 

"All the facts in salmon issue must be revealed" (The Daily News, 26th October): http://www.canada.com/facts+salmon+issue+must+revealed/5607949/story.html

 

"Aquaculture Audio Vault" (Positive Aquaculture Awareness, 26th October): http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/radio-programs-salmon-farming

 

"ISA probe underway in British Columbia" (Fish Farming Xpert, 26th October): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=92855

 

"Frankenfoods need to be labeled" (Juneau Empire, 26th October): http://juneauempire.com/opinion/2011-10-26/my-turn-frankenfoods-need-be-labeled

 

"Group opposed to genetically modified salmon" (The Daily Gleaner, 26th October): http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/cityregion/article/1450730

 

"Now Canada joins GM salmon debate" (Fish Update, 26th October): http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/16431/Now_Canada_joins_GM_salmon_debate.html

 

"Marine Harvest's Anti- Predator Nets A Good Example" (The Fish Site, 26th October): http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/15806/marine-harvests-anti-predator-nets-a-good-example

 

"Salmon virus fears voiced, caution advised" (KSTK, 25th October): http://kstk.org/modules/local_news/index.php?op=sideBlock&syndicated=true&ID=2055

 

"David Suzuki: Virus is another sign of failure to protect wild salmon" (The Straight, 25th October): http://www.straight.com/article-503366/vancouver/david-suzuki-virus-another-sign-failure-protect-wild-salmon

 

"There’s something fishy with some Canadian fish" (Chinook Observer, 25th October): http://www.chinookobserver.com/news/there-s-something-fishy-with-some-canadian-fish/article_d41409f4-ff5a-11e0-9459-001cc4c03286.html

 

"Farmed fish should be isolated" (Campbell River Mirror/Courier-Islander, 25th October): http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/132559318.html

 

"Environment Canada says job cuts will halt research on fish farming chemicals in Nova Scotia" (Responsible Aquaculture/CBC News, 25th October): http://responsibleaquaculture.wordpress.com/2011/10/25/environment-canada-says-job-cuts-will-halt-research-on-fish-farming-chemicals-in-nova-scotia/

 

"Deadly Fish Farm Virus Found in Wild Pacific Salmon: Scientists say pathogen could easily spread from Canadian to Californian salmon populations" (Santa Cruz News, 25th October): http://news.santacruz.com/2011/10/25/deadly_fish_farm_virus_found_in_wild_pacific_salmon

 

"Vets probe ISA virus issue" (Positive Aquaculture Awareness, 25th October): http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/vets-probe-isa-virus-issue

 

"Cermaq's Q3 EBIT drops, Mainstream Chile's rises" (FIS, 25th October): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&country=0&special=&monthyear=&day=&id=47053&ndb=1&df=0

 

"Boom may loom for New Zealand aquaculture: $111 million company predicts profits doubling by 2015, in part due to new law" (Intrafish, 25th October): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1259406.ece

 

"Quick Action Taken Against Salmon Anemia" (World Fishing Network, 25th October): http://www.worldfishingnetwork.com/news/quick-action-taken-against-salmon-anemia-146124.aspx

 

"No ISA virus found in British Columbia" (Positive Aquaculture Awareness/Fish Farming Xpert, 24th October): http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/no-isa-virus-found-british-columbia

 

 

Listen online to a NPR radio interview: "Salmon virus fears voiced, caution advised": http://kstk.org/modules/local_news/index.php?op=sideBlock&syndicated=true&ID=2055

 

Listen online to radio interviews from the BC salmon farming industry including Mary-Ellen Walling of BCSFA, Clare Backman of Marine Harvest, Grant Warkentin of Mainstream, Stewart Hawthorn of Grieg, Dr. Patrick Moore and Dr Gary Marty: http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/radio-programs-salmon-farming

 

 

The official report of ISA in British Columbia, by Dr. Fred Kibenge at the OIE Reference Laboratory at Atlantic Veterinary College at the University of Prince Edward Island, is now available online here

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse": http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 

 

Fisheries Information Service, 26th October 2011

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on October 27, 2011, 08:27:05 AM
NW Fishletter #295, October 21, 2011
[1] Questions Over "Deadly" Virus In Two B.C. Sockeye Smolts

A story about researchers detecting a virus in two wild BC sockeye smolts similar to the bug that had decimated stocks at some European, eastern Canadian and Chilean salmon farms went viral itself earlier this week after the finding was announced at a press conference in Vancouver B.C. on Oct. 18.

Wild fish advocates raised the specter of a wholesale crash in natural stocks on the West Coast and called for shutting down all of B.C.'s farmed salmon industry, even though there was no hard evidence that the virus, called ISA [Infectious Salmon Anemia], came from net pens on the east side of Vancouver Island.

But two days later, the Canadian scientist who had tentatively identified the ISA virus in two samples of 48 samples of juvenile sockeye that were collected in Rivers Inlet, 100 km north of the net pens, said the whole thing was overblown.

As the story spread across the Internet, there was scarce mention that research earlier in the decade had found that wild salmonids didn't seem to suffer from ISA at all, even when injected with it.

It all began with an Oct. 17 press conference at Simon Fraser University, where Rick Routledge, a professor of statistics, announced the findings. Routledge, who is studying the decline of Rivers Inlet sockeye stocks, said in a statement that was released by the university that "ISA is a deadly, exotic disease which could have devastating impacts on wild salmon and the many species that depend on them throughout much of British Columbia and beyond."

The statement said the virus was identified as a European strain, similar to the one that caused two billion dollars in losses to the Chilean aquaculture industry a few years ago. It was thought that the virus made its way from Europe in fish eggs shipped to the farms in South America from Norway.

Routledge and biologist Alexandra Morton, a long-time foe of B.C.'s aquaculture industry, agreed that the only "plausible source" was the Atlantic salmon farms off Vancouver Island.

However, representatives of the BC farmed salmon industry said that they have been testing for the virus for years, and haven't seen a single sign of it in over 4,700 samples. But Morton argued that testing was not adequate and recent data released by the industry showed that many fish tested had symptoms that were similar to those from ISA.

The farmers issued their own statement in response. "These unconfirmed findings certainly are unexpected, unusual and warrant further investigation," said Clare Backman, sustainability director for Marine Harvest Canada.

The farmed salmon group said it was reviewing "the validity of these publicized, but as yet unconfirmed results," and noted that wild salmon weren't susceptible to ISA like the farmed Atlantic salmon. They said they were still concerned about what the discovery meant, and how the disease may have been introduced.

A few days later, Dr. Fred Kibenge, a professor of virology at Atlantic Veterinary College. Prince Edward Island, who identified the virus, told a reporter from The Seattle Weekly that his findings have been blown out of proportion. He said "people are calling me from all over the world -- newspapers, TV, it's ridiculous." Kibenge told reporter Keegan Hamilton that his findings were nothing to change the industry. "It's very unfortunate that people are spinning it this way. It's really dangerous when you put it that way."

But there still may be some question as to whether the strain of ISA found in the Rivers Inlet sockeye smolts has been properly identified.

Dr. David Groman, Section Head of Aquatic Diagnostic Services at the same veterinary college, told fis.com, a fishing industry online news source, that the findings touted by the Simon Fraser researchers were based on real-time PCR [Polymerase Chain Reaction] testing, "with no complete sequencing of the PCR products to do any strain typing of the virus," he said. In plain English, Groman was saying that no virus had been isolated.

Dr. Groman told NW Fishletter by e-mail that the sample was not large enough to completely identify the virus. He said "a shorter segment of the genome was typed and it placed positive in the European classification (this classification contains a large number of variant strains, some are pathogenic and some are not)."

He said the ISA virus is basically divided into European strains and North American strains, as are found in New Brunswick. "Due to the lack of material, the exact European strain of the virus could not be determined immediately, but the results basically indicated that this positive would eventually fall out in the European classification and not the North American one."

"So in short," said Dr. Groman, "so far we have a molecular sequence identified in two samples. NO VIRUS ISOLATED, NO CLINICAL FISH DISEASE CASE, and most importantly, NO DEAD FISH."

The lab results will have to be confirmed before any conclusions can be drawn from the initial B.C. sockeye findings. "Regarding false positives," said Dr. Groman, "all diagnostic laboratories (human and animal alike) have to worry about both false positive and false negative results from automated tests. If you run 1,000 tests you always have some of both results. That is why CFIA [Canadian Food Inspection Agency] and OIE [World Organization for Animal Health] always need confirmation using different tests and different labs on the same samples. So, we will see if these results pan out as good positives or not. Only time will tell."

But other wild fish advocates soon issued statements of their own, calling for a halt to the farming of Atlantic salmon in B.C. The Wild Fish Conservancy said it should stay shut down until more independent testing of wild, hatchery, and farmed fish can gage the size of the threat.

They recommended that Dr. James Winton of the USGS, who heads a fish health group at the agency's Western Fisheries Research Center in Seattle, be given oversight of this process. They also called for the establishment of an independent scientific advisory panel, with emergency funding from both the U.S. and Canadian governments.

Winton told the New York Times it is a "disease emergency" and said research should start now to determine how far the virus has spread.

On Oct. 20, the B.C. government released information regarding the controversy, prepared by Paul Kitching, the B.C. provincial veterinarian and Gary Marty, the B.C. provincial fish pathologist. They noted the two samples that tested positive were from fish that showed no clinical signs of disease. "Therefore these are positive PCR test results only; they do not confirm that the fish had ISA."

They said the CFIA will probably not report theses initial results to the OIE until at least a virus culture or evidence of disease confirms it, and the follow-up could take six weeks or more.

They also took issue with Alexandra Morton's claim that the Cohen Commission had heard that more than 1,000 cases of ISA-like lesions have been reported at BC salmon farms since 2006.

They said every one of those lesions had been tested for ISA virus "using a highly sensitive and specific PCR test," and all fish tested negative. From 2003 to 2010, 4,726 dead farm salmon were tested for the virus and tested negative for the virus.

The B.C. scientists pointed to a peer-reviewed study that found wild Pacific salmon were at low risk if ISA showed up on the West Coast. One of the study's authors was USGS scientist Winton. And they noted in 2008, when Chilean fish farms suffered an outbreak of ISA, coho salmon reared near infected Atlantic salmon, some in adjacent pens, showed no sign of ISA after three years of testing. "This provides strong evidence that coho salmon are highly resistant to ISAV, and a reasonable hypothesis is that sockeye salmon are similarly resistant."

Washington senator Maria Cantwell (D), Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) and Mark Begich (D-AK) have introduced a bipartisan amendment that calls for an investigation of the virus. In an Oct. 20 statement, Cantwell said, "We need to act now to protect the Pacific Northwest's coastal economy and jobs. There's no threat to human health, but infectious salmon anemia could pose a serious threat to Pacific Northwest wild salmon and the thousands of Washington state jobs that rely on them. We have to get a coordinated game plan in place to protect our salmon and stop the spread of this deadly virus."

On Oct. 21, The Canadian Food Inspection Agency announced it was collaborating with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, to investigate the reports that ISA had been detected the B.C. sockeye. They said they were working with the Atlantic Veterinary College and further analysis was underway at the National Aquatic Animal Health Laboratory in New Brunswick.

The agency said results should be available within weeks, and if the disease is confirmed, "the CFIA will, in consultation with partners and stakeholders, identify and take appropriate next steps." In Canada, ISA is a "federally reportable disease," said the CFIA statement, which means that all suspected cases must be immediately reported to them. -Bill Rudolph

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Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: mykisscrazy on October 27, 2011, 01:58:14 PM
Thanks for Posting this Dave.
All very informative.
It's absolutely amazing to me how much control Alexandra Morton and her Gang have on the Press
Let's see what she will Whip up next!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 27, 2011, 02:28:36 PM
Thanks for Posting this Dave.
All very informative.
It's absolutely amazing to me how much control Alexandra Morton and her Gang have on the Press
Let's see what she will Whip up next!

Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Contingency plan after finding ISA virus variant" (FIS, 28th October): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=28&id=47140&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"New ISA strain in Chile is 'fiercer': Although no deaths are proven, Chilean fisheries agency asks for salmon to be slaughtered following traces of 'fiercer' ISA strain" (Intrafish, 27th October): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1259574.ece

 

"GMO salmon egg sales plan alarms environmentalists: Producer hopes to sell eggs to approved fish farmers" (CBC, 27th October): http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2011/10/27/pei-gm-salmon-farmers-584.html?cmp=googleeditorspick

 

"Government must respond seriously to salmon disease" (The Straight, 27th October): http://www.straight.com/article-503976/vancouver/government-must-respond-seriously-salmon-disease

 

"Lethal virus from salmon farms seen in wild sockeye" (San Francisco Chronicle, 27th October): http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2011/10/27/MNLB1LJLHH.DTL

 

"Salmon producers face new crisis" (Views and News from Norway, 27th October): http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/10/27/salmon-producers-face-new-crisis/

 

"Disappointed over Canada: Marine Harvest is not satisfied with the results from its Canadian farming operations" (Hegnar, 27th October): http://www.hegnar.no/bors/article663760.ece

 

"Marine Harvest Q3 profit dives: Company preparing for "challenging period," CEO says" (Intrafish, 27th October): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1259644.ece

 

"Facts on salmon tests and egg imports raise concerns" (The Vancouver Sun, 27th October): http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/Facts+salmon+tests+imports+raise+concerns/5614399/story.html

 

"Activists spread word about GM salmon in New Brunswick: Canadian activists consider GM salmon is a threat to humans and to wild salmon" (FIS, 27th October): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=27&id=47094&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Public Forum: Genetically Modified Atlantic Salmon — Atlantic Canada is at the center of the global controversy over GM fish" (Newfoundland and Labrador Environment Network, 27th October): http://www.nlen.ca/events/event/public-forum-genetically-modified-atlantic-salmon-atlantic-canada-is-at-the-center-of-the-global-controversy-over-gm-fish/

 

"Salmon Virus in BC Sparks Fears in US: Additional testing needed, says Ottawa" (The Epoch Times, 26th October): http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/canada/salmon-virus-in-bc-sparks-fears-in-us-63350.html

 

"B.C.'s salmon feedlots need to be closed" (Alaska Dispatch, 26th October): http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/bcs-salmon-feedlots-need-be-closed

 

"DFO, industry put salmon at risk" (North Island Gazette, 26th October): http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/letters/132632218.html

 

"Wild sockeye in B.C. infected with lethal virus" (Homer News, 26th October): http://homernews.com/stories/102611/business_wsibiwl.shtml#.Tql9DLKsm1o

 

"Fish Factor: Infectious anemia kills salmon worldwide" (Capital City Weekly, 26th October): http://www.capitalcityweekly.com/stories/102611/bus_905319954.shtml

 

"Ghost River" (Wild Salmon People, 26th October): http://wildsalmonpeople.blogspot.com/2011/10/ghost-river.html

 

"Chilean growth softens earnings drop for Cermaq: Earnings down by 20 percent as strong growth in Chile offsets sharp drop in Norway and Canada" (Intrafish, 25th October): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1259420.ece

 

 

Including from Ivan Doumenc writing in The Straight today:

 

"Gary Marty, a fish pathologist with the B.C. government, reported cases of classic lesions associated with ISA over 1,000 times since 2006. Yet he never registered any of those repeated diagnoses—not a single time—as being the ISA virus itself. Why did he choose to systematically dismiss ISA, even though the symptoms he found matched the disease?  ISA was probably introduced in B.C. around 2004. We should have known about it since 2006. Yet we were kept in the dark about it. Those are heavy personal responsibilities that those people in power carry in the matter of the viral infection of our salmon. The time for denial is over. The time for running for cover is over."

 

From today's San Francisco Chronicle:

 

"The problem is you are raising salmon in pens and the sockeye are migrating past those pens, so it's very easy for them to pick up diseases from those pens," said Peter Moyle, a professor of fish biology at UC Davis. "We know it can happen. Salmon can pick up viruses in the water."...."This virus can mutate from a benign form to a particularly virulent one, and it has done this in the relatively recent past," Routledge said. "The implications could be very serious."  California does not practice fish farming the same way as British Columbia - the state's hatcheries raise fish for release into the wild - and Moyle said the California fishery does not appear to be in immediate danger. The virus could nonetheless be a death knell for the West Coast fishing industry, he said, were it to find its way into the state's signature chinook stock.  "Anytime you have a new disease that occurs, it could be devastating," Moyle said."

 

And from Marine Harvest's CEO Alf-Helge Aarskog today in Norway unveiling their latest financial results [translated via Google]:

 

"The biological situation in Canada is far from satisfactory....We will look at the entire organization, and restructure it.  We cannot continue as we do".

 

 

The official report of ISA in British Columbia, by Dr. Fred Kibenge at the OIE Reference Laboratory at Atlantic Veterinary College at the University of Prince Edward Island, is available online here

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse": http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on October 27, 2011, 04:16:59 PM
Thanks for posting that Dave.
Guess I was totally wrong in everything I said  ::)
Wonder if all the people that bashed me will see that what I wrote is identical to what is in that report and maybe think about what was said...

Now I just need to find those research papers about ISA being very low risk to pacific salmon so that I can make a point on the "other" forum...
O and also the one about the coho right next to the farms being ISA free 3 years later would be helpful too...

Cheers,
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 27, 2011, 07:01:39 PM
Thanks for posting that Dave.
Guess I was totally wrong in everything I said  ::)
Wonder if all the people that bashed me will see that what I wrote is identical to what is in that report and maybe think about what was said...

Now I just need to find those research papers about ISA being very low risk to pacific salmon so that I can make a point on the "other" forum...
O and also the one about the coho right next to the farms being ISA free 3 years later would be helpful too...

Cheers,
Dan
Bottom line, we should be looking after our wild stocks more than we do so we donot need fish farms.

So many pro fish farm people never want to mention all the problems caused to wild fish stocks in so many other countries that have fish farms. I mention this so many times but never get an answer to dispute that statement. ::)

We aslo rely too much on raising so much of our food as fast as we can at any expense, feeding them food that is detrimental to our health. :(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on October 27, 2011, 07:46:53 PM
Bottom line, we should be looking after our wild stocks more than we do so we donot need fish farms.

So many pro fish farm people never want to mention all the problems caused to wild fish stocks in so many other countries that have fish farms. I mention this so many times but never get an answer to dispute that statement. ::)

We aslo rely too much on raising so much of our food as fast as we can at any expense, feeding them food that is detrimental to our health. :(

Chris, as said in another topic, I am not for fish farming, but I am not totally against it either.
Without fish farms, wild stocks may be in just as bad or even worse shape.
The demand for fish today would drive wild runs to extinction from over fishing. Therefore I believe there is indeed a time and place for fish farms.

The more I go through school the more and more I learn about fish farms and what they cause, etc.
I have got to the point where I'd like to see proof that they have caused detriment to wild stocks.
I have learnt things from teachers both pro farming and anti farming and can say both sets have no proof of any detrimental effects on wild stocks.

The only possible scenario I could see damaging wild stocks was on the East coast, where Atlantic's could actually spread diseases like ISA to wild stocks (because they are the same species out there). They could also get out and inbreed with wild stocks making stocks weaker. Out here it is a totally different story. The whole sea lice thing... the ONLY fish that sea lice have a potential to kill are pinks (because they go out as such a small size), and it is only for their first week in salt water that sea lice will actually be lethal to them.

Once again, I am not disputing the fact these fish don't belong here. I am just saying they don't belong here solely on the fact that they are not native here and humans have put a lot of things where they don't belong. I can't however say that they don't belong here due to the fact that they are hurting anything, because there is no proof of it.

Lastly, the comment of feeding them food detrimental to us....
They are fed fish meal, that is commercially harvested herring/sardines/etc, stuff that wild salmon would eat.

Cheers Chris (and I'm not trying to start an argument, schooling has just gotten me thinking).
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 27, 2011, 08:16:49 PM
Not sure if you have seen this.

http://youtu.be/4QKwEsaACsk
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 27, 2011, 08:59:00 PM
So many pro fish farm people never want to mention all the problems caused to wild fish stocks in so many other countries that have fish farms. I mention this so many times but never get an answer to dispute that statement. ::)

What are the other wild fish stocks that were negatively impacted by ISA in Chile?  Were wild salmon heavily impacted by ISA in Chile?  How many farmed Atlantic salmon died of ISA in Chile?  How much do we know about diseases in wild salmon (particularly Sockeye) off our coast?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on October 27, 2011, 09:08:03 PM
Chris.

That is very interesting for sure.
But I'm not sure what you would expect to find in deep water anywhere in the ocean at that depth besides some black mud  ???
Not much of the ocean has much inhabitable bottom space besides places like eel grass beds in shallow water, and sponge reefs, etc in the deep.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: BwiBwi on October 27, 2011, 09:11:33 PM
Chile doesn't have wild salmon like BC does.

ISAV wiped out farmed Atlantic salmon in Chile.  After first few cases of ISAV wipe outs, it was becomes a mandate when ISAV screening comes out with  positive result.  That particular farm is required to destroy it's entire stock.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: rjs on October 27, 2011, 09:14:42 PM
Chris.

That is very interesting for sure.
But I'm not sure what you would expect to find in deep water anywhere in the ocean at that depth besides some black mud  ???
Not much of the ocean has much inhabitable bottom space besides places like eel grass beds in shallow water, and sponge reefs, etc in the deep.


ummmhhh u really gotta to kidding RIGHT ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 27, 2011, 09:19:44 PM
Quote
Including from Ivan Doumenc writing in The Straight today:

"Gary Marty, a fish pathologist with the B.C. government, reported cases of classic lesions associated with ISA over 1,000 times since 2006. Yet he never registered any of those repeated diagnoses—not a single time—as being the ISA virus itself. Why did he choose to systematically dismiss ISA, even though the symptoms he found matched the disease?  ISA was probably introduced in B.C. around 2004. We should have known about it since 2006. Yet we were kept in the dark about it. Those are heavy personal responsibilities that those people in power carry in the matter of the viral infection of our salmon. The time for denial is over. The time for running for cover is over."

Well, we just heard from Ivan.....Why don't we hear what Dr. Marty has to say....

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Radio/Local_Shows/Maritimes/Information_Morning_(NS)/2035075335/ID=2155815690

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on October 27, 2011, 10:02:37 PM
Chris, with all respect as you and I are good friends, that video was crap.

I wonder how much sewerage comes out of Victoria, totally untreated?
How much of the total winter flow of the Fraser River at Chilliwack.is composed of effluent from upstream towns?

Fish farms can be better; and they will be, just like beef, pork, and poultry farms have had to be to compete in the industry, despite their recent viral/bacterial  problems.
It’s new ….  and  apparently scary for a lot of folks;  I understand the push against it as we as a species generally shun change.  I’m just suggesting  people research for themselves salmon farming facts.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on October 27, 2011, 10:17:45 PM

ummmhhh u really gotta to kidding RIGHT ???

No I'm not...
Salmon farms are placed in specific areas. These areas are DEEP with lots of flow.
Deep means (in our waters especially) no light penetration and therefore no plant life. No plant life generally means no structure and therefore no other life.

So I forward this question to you again.
What would you expect to find in the aphotic zone of the ocean besides mud?
Except in certain situations as I mentioned like glass sponger reefs, etc which also prefer particular areas.

Dave, I'm glad I'm not the only one second guessing all of this negative publicity on salmon farms.

As said I'm not totally for them, but I can't be against them with the evidence I'v been given. The only thing I have a problem with is we are putting a species somewhere where it doesn't belong, but then again I sure do love my interior trout fishing  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on October 28, 2011, 07:44:13 AM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100622112558.htm


You can say that the salmon farming methods are not harmful. But say that while sucking on a non harmful cigarette for best affect.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 28, 2011, 08:12:04 AM
After reading and listenng to all the dialogue and postings on the ISA virus found in the two sockeye smolts from Rivers Inlet, I'd bet dollars to donuts they turn out to be false positives and can't be confirmed by further testing, and that the PEI lab backs down on the findings. SFU went public too soon and the ISA lab didn't follow normal viral confirmation protocols for some odd reason. It just doesn't make sense that Rivers Inlet sockeye could have significant exposure to an Atlantic Salmon virus. That's my bet and we'll have to wait and see. Maybe we need a public enquiry......  :o
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: IronNoggin on October 29, 2011, 02:04:09 PM
Virus in Pacific Salmon Raises Worries About Industry
By WILLIAM YARDLEY
Published: October 28, 2011

Advocates for wild salmon said Friday that a deadly virus had been detected again in a Pacific salmon in British Columbia, but it was not clear if it would prove lethal to the fish population.
Related

The finding, like one involving two juvenile wild sockeye salmon in British Columbia, poses questions for the viability of salmon fisheries in Canada and the United States. Scientists have expressed concern about the emergence of the virus while raising questions about complications, including scientific doubts about the quality of the tests.[/b]

In its active state, the virus, infectious salmon anemia, has devastated Atlantic salmon populations in fish farms in Chile and elsewhere. Salmon advocates have long worried that the virus could spread to wild populations, but it not clear whether Pacific salmon are equally susceptible.

In documents released Friday, an adult coho salmon supplied by salmon advocates to a prominent laboratory showed signs of carrying the disease. That fish was reported to have been found in a tributary of the Fraser River, a critical salmon run for fishermen in Canada and the United States.

Last week, researchers from Simon Fraser University in British Columbia and elsewhere said that they had discovered the virus in 2 of 48 juvenile fish collected as part of a study of sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet, on the central coast of British Columbia. The study was undertaken after scientists observed a decline in the number of young sockeye.

Such a virus could have a deep impact on the survival of salmon in the Pacific Northwest. Some scientists have suggested that the virus had spread from British Columbia’s aquaculture industry, which has imported millions of Atlantic salmon eggs over the last 25 years.

Salmon farms and wild fish are separated only by a net, many have noted. No treatment exists for the virus, which does not spread to humans, scientists say.

The crowded conditions of salmon farms are thought to abet the spread of the virus.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/science/pacific-salmon-virus-raises-worries-about-industry.html

 ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 02:52:20 PM
After reading and listening to all the dialogue and postings on the ISA virus found in the two sockeye smolts from Rivers Inlet, I'd bet dollars to donuts they turn out to be false positives and can't be confirmed by further testing..........

I'm guessing the Fraser river coho ISA virus falls into the same category??

Seems the best way to avoid fixing a problem is to deny that there is a problem. If you can get enough of the public to agree with you then you must be right?!?

It's absolutely amazing to me how much control Alexandra Morton and her Gang have on the Press
Let's see what she will Whip up next!



 Guess what she whipped up now....   Fraser coho are now infected!  I never realized she also controls the New York press......  Some powerful lady.
Maybe the fish farmers and DFO could make this go away quicker if they co-operated with her instead of fighting her all the way. They have deep pockets, but I'm sensing she has a lot of fight in her!

Go Alex!!


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on October 29, 2011, 03:00:30 PM
You got it right alwaysfishn... you're guessing :D
I know of a yellow white chinook submitted to " a prominent laboratory".  Does anyone have information regarding this coho?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 03:01:54 PM
From Alexandra Morton's latest blog.....

"The New York Times did what I was not allowed to do - tell you there has been a second diagnosis of Infectious Salmon Anemia virus in wild BC salmon, this time in the Fraser River itself, the biggest wild salmon river in the world. The fish the New York Times is talking about is one that a small group of us picked up, sampled and sent to the world reference lab for the ISA virus. It was a beautiful coho salmon, in first blush of spawning colours. The salmon had navigated the river as a tiny fry, entered the sea as a fat and sassy little smolt eating everything in sight. It traveled north and west in search of the saltiness of the ocean and in doing so passed millions of European salmon in pens. Whether it got infected then or on the way home carrying the richness of a life at sea, her body shut down infected with a virus her ancestors never had a chance to prepare her for. We found her drifting dead downstream passing Harrison Mills. We scooped her up took a sliver of her heart and gills and sent them to one of the world authorities on ISA virus.

We did this because we want to know how widespread the European ISA virus is in BC waters and I don't see anyone else out there trying to map the damage. The lab never reported back to me, muzzled I suspect, but the information got out. We now have two diagnoses, 600 km apart, in two different species, of two different generations."


I wonder what else she knows.......   but isn't allowed to tell us!  Is anyone else as angry as I am at how ridiculous this is?

Even if the ISA virus is not a problem shouldn't you and I be allowed to know that it's out there?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 03:08:17 PM
You got it right alwaysfishn... you're guessing :D
I know of a yellow white chinook submitted to " a prominent laboratory".  Does anyone have information regarding this coho?

Just to clarify....   my comment was sarcasm.  I wasn't guessing!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 03:19:33 PM
From another one of Alexandra's blogs....

"Below is an email forwarded to me today from a member of the public from the bcsalmonfacts.ca website. When you visit this site you see it is sponsored by:

The BC Salmon Farmers Association
EWOS
Grieg Seafood
Mainstream
Marine harvest
Skretting

In the email below, the author with an email address from this site says: “Regardless of proof, this news is of concern to BC salmon farmers. Although this particular strain of ISA is of a non-pathogenic genotype (non lethal), the Atlantic salmon is quite susceptible to certain strains of ISA.”

Minster Ashfield, how does the industry know this is the “non-pathogenic genotype” ISA virus?

The bcsalmonfacts.ca email author seems not only assured that this is ISA virus, but also has more information about this than appeared on the Kibenge report.
Is this information coming from your Moncton Lab? Please confirm whether the federal government knows if the ISAv genotype found in the two Rivers Inlet sockeye salmon is of the non-pathogenic strain."



I guess this falls under the deny, deny, deny category. Like my parents taught me, if you lie once, you'll need to tell a bigger lie the next time and eventually you will get caught!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 29, 2011, 06:59:57 PM
Dear Wild Salmon People:

The New York Times just published an article on test results from a coho salmon we found dead in the Fraser River.  I am glad this got out, thank you to the New York Times, because I was not allowed to tell you.

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com

Alexandra Morton

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on October 29, 2011, 07:09:08 PM
Why not name the Lab or is she muzzled?
on something this important. I would have sent samples to multiple labs and at least one to a press source for them to test as well. This would dampen most of the credibility questions.

I would like to see a complete report on the sampling process, from sample selection, the methodology of sampling and testing regime made public. This has gone beyond could be or can't be. It has brought into question our Government's or at least a very important ministry's credibility.   
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: nickredway on October 29, 2011, 07:11:30 PM
Here is her blog post http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/ I wouldn't have a problem with her if she didn't exaggerate so much I don't see any science backing up the title.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 29, 2011, 07:11:57 PM
The evidence keeps mounting and mounting but some people still believe fish farms are doing no harm to our wild fish stocks. :o ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 29, 2011, 07:12:55 PM
Here is her blog post http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/ I wouldn't have a problem with her if she didn't exaggerate so much I don't see any science backing up the title.
Same as above. :-X
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 07:44:21 PM
Here is her blog post http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/ I wouldn't have a problem with her if she didn't exaggerate so much I don't see any science backing up the title.

This battle cannot be fought on science alone. When the folks that have all the resources and are the ones causing the damage, the only way to bring them in line is by getting the public on side. Morton has got this figured out and that's why she is so hated by the industry and seemingly ignored or muffled by government.

Her title is no different than what a newspaper would write. We need her kind to publicize these issues......   so that government is forced to put resources on this issue so that we can know the truth. Right now we don't know the truth and it makes it easy to believe that there is a cover up going on. 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 29, 2011, 08:09:22 PM
This battle cannot be fought on science alone. When the folks that have all the resources and are the ones causing the damage, the only way to bring them in line is by getting the public on side. Morton has got this figured out and that's why she is so hated by the industry and seemingly ignored or muffled by government.

Her title is no different than what a newspaper would write. We need her kind to publicize these issues......   so that government is forced to put resources on this issue so that we can know the truth. Right now we don't know the truth and it makes it easy to believe that there is a cover up going on. 
Yep, so true.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on October 29, 2011, 08:44:41 PM
The evidence keeps mounting and mounting but some people still believe fish farms are doing no harm to our wild fish stocks. :o ???

That's just it, we know it does harm, yet most of the general public choose to ignore the consequences. It would seem some even just see this as an anti business battle.
Unfortunately there seems to be the yapping dog attitude developing for Ms Morten and assoc. something they need to get a handle on. We need to find away to confirm this disease in a public and irrefutable forum, where motive is irrelevant, if it's here? make a plan and move on.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: nickredway on October 29, 2011, 09:30:22 PM
Did I say that I thought fish farms weren't harming wild stocks? I just think that her style of presentation turns a lot of potential supporters off.
Same as above. :-X
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 09:47:19 PM
Did I say that I thought fish farms weren't harming wild stocks? I just think that her style of presentation turns a lot of potential supporters off.

What you seem to be suggesting is that Ms Morton should use a knife in the gun fight.....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: nickredway on October 29, 2011, 09:59:19 PM
No that's not what I'm saying at all. I just think that if you come across as too hysterical a lot of potential supporters will tune out.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
No that's not what I'm saying at all. I just think that if you come across as too hysterical a lot of potential supporters will tune out.

It's actually tuned a lot of us in!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on October 29, 2011, 10:03:56 PM
WOW....

So a coho showed SIGNS of carrying the disease? As far as I see there was NO actual diagnosis.
O my gosh, what ever will we do... lesions, petechiae, exophthalmia all symptoms of ISA and around 20 other virus and bacteria including IHN.

Also, even if the virus was present, that doesn't mean it killed the fish. The fish was about to spawn, with a depressed immune system and hundreds of other possible pathogens in the water. For a proper diagnosis she would have had to send the whole fish, not just a sliver of heart and kidneys. Sounds pretty fishy to me.

You CANNOT make a diagnosis based on visible symptoms alone. You need to also culture it (make sure the virus/bacteria is active) and do some other test such as genetic testing.

They probably never got back to her because there was nothing there. So now as soon as anyone sees lesions or some other abnormalities in normal dying fish (o, did I mention that their immune systems shut down once in freshwater, meaning that they could have been carrying something without ill effect all their life until after spawning) they are going to assume ISA because of the media driven paranoia based on nothing, no true scientific facts, just symptoms of what could be multiple diseases.

O and alwaysfishin', that one report you posted from bcsalmonfacts is part of an interview. They just took the part that best fit their prerogative.

I also love how she tries to make the tiny little salmon seem so cute and innocent. I'll give her one thing, she is definitely a good creative writer.

Cheers,
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 29, 2011, 10:18:26 PM
WOW....

So a coho showed SIGNS of carrying the disease? As far as I see there was NO actual diagnosis.
O my gosh, what ever will we do... lesions, petechiae, exophthalmia all symptoms of ISA and around 20 other virus and bacteria including IHN.

Also, even if the virus was present, that doesn't mean it killed the fish. The fish was about to spawn, with a depressed immune system and hundreds of other possible pathogens in the water. For a proper diagnosis she would have had to send the whole fish, not just a sliver of heart and kidneys. Sounds pretty fishy to me.

You CANNOT make a diagnosis based on visible symptoms alone. You need to also culture it (make sure the virus/bacteria is active) and do some other test such as genetic testing.

They probably never got back to her because there was nothing there. So now as soon as anyone sees lesions or some other abnormalities in normal dying fish (o, did I mention that their immune systems shut down once in freshwater, meaning that they could have been carrying something without ill effect all their life until after spawning) they are going to assume ISA because of the media driven paranoia based on nothing, no true scientific facts, just symptoms of what could be multiple diseases.

O and alwaysfishin', that one report you posted from bcsalmonfacts is part of an interview. They just took the part that best fit their prerogative.

I also love how she tries to make the tiny little salmon seem so cute and innocent. I'll give her one thing, she is definitely a good creative writer.

Cheers,
Dan

A great example of someone putting their head in the sand and suggesting that because they can't see anything, there is absolutely no problem.... 

At least most of us that support Morton do so because we believe she will help motivate government to get to the bottom of this and then fix it. You have obviously drawn the conclusion that the problems are imaginary and that you'd just like to see Morton go away.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on October 29, 2011, 10:27:53 PM
A great example of someone putting their head in the sand and suggesting that because they can't see anything, there is absolutely no problem.... 

At least most of us that support Morton do so because we believe she will help motivate government to get to the bottom of this and then fix it. You have obviously drawn the conclusion that the problems are imaginary and that you'd just like to see Morton go away.

So that's all you can come up with? That I'v stuck my head in the sand? Just because I looked at what was actually written, and was able to come up with some other explanation different to yours based on education and not just opinion. Would you like to explain this to me? How you are so sure I am wrong, along with the scientists that apparently disagree with Morton? What makes you believe (scientifically and in what is written) that she is right that it was ISA without any information released?

The problems are imaginary as I see it. I have seen no proof. All I have seen is some undone scientific work that was blown out of proportion by Morton and her associates, and the scientists that she got her results from saying that she mis-interpreted the results.

If anyone, you are the one that has their head stuck in the sand, for following blindly without actually looking at both sides of the story, having done no looking through scientific facts. Maybe do some research on Virus' present naturally in BC and bacteria alike and see how many symptoms match ISA. As said, without a test and results testing positive, with positive growth you cannot claim ISA infection.

I guess I'm done arguing here. You can never change someone's opinion when it's made up as much as yours. In fact I'm not trying to change your opinion, I'm just trying to get you to look at scientific research instead of a blog and reading everything in that blog as true.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 30, 2011, 08:17:37 AM
Try reading what I actually wrote.... "At least most of us that support Morton do so because we believe she will help motivate government to get to the bottom of this and then fix it."

I have never said that I thought everything in her blog is true, nor have I questioned anyone's scientific research. However while we are critiquing each others motives and actions...  I would suggest that it seems since you have obtained a little education, you have in your own mind become an expert, who is not open to the possibility that someone else, looking at things from a different perspective could also know what they are talking about. Because of your attitude, folks like you are putting our whole west coast salmon at risk, putting all sorts of road blocks in place to try and prove the point that you are smarter than people like Morton.

I want to see more transparency in the investigations. While the truth may be what you suggest, I am not willing to accept your opinion just because you happen to know a little more about the science than I do. Where there is smoke there is usually fire.... and right now Morton and many of us see a lot of smoke!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 30, 2011, 02:55:11 PM
I'm no fish farm lover but I don't like being manipulated, and that's what Alex Morton's Fraser coho story obviously is if you read through it all carefully....it's just a story that the NY Times got from her (and it's her diagnosis). There is no ISA virus detected in Fraser coho. That's the only problem I have with her activist approach......exaggeration and conclusion jumping to gets headlines turns supporters off.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 30, 2011, 04:35:45 PM
I'm no fish farm lover but I don't like being manipulated, and that's what Alex Morton's Fraser coho story obviously is if you read through it all carefully....it's just a story that the NY Times got from her (and it's her diagnosis). There is no ISA virus detected in Fraser coho. That's the only problem I have with her activist approach......exaggeration and conclusion jumping to gets headlines turns supporters off.
If there is not people like Alex trying to get too the bottom of this who is going to? Certainly not two levels of government or FOC who in my mind just try to cover up and hide the facts as well as put gag orders on some bureaucrats. I donot think that can be disputed.             
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on October 30, 2011, 05:02:47 PM
If there is not people like Alex trying to get too the bottom of this who is going to? Certainly not two levels of government or FOC who in my mind just try to cover up and hide the facts as well as put gag orders on some bureaucrats. I donot think that can be disputed.             

Chris, no one questions Ms. Morton's passion or her obvious love of wild salmon.  And I say good on her for that.
But sadly, she is wearing out her environmental voice because of misleading and erroneous statements, cherry picking data in attempts to make a point, misinterpreting results from studies she has no expertise or experience with. and generally embarrassing herself. You get my point.
IMO she has cried wolf to often and people are starting to realize that..

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on October 30, 2011, 05:08:39 PM
Try reading what I actually wrote.... "At least most of us that support Morton do so because we believe she will help motivate government to get to the bottom of this and then fix it."

I have never said that I thought everything in her blog is true, nor have I questioned anyone's scientific research. However while we are critiquing each others motives and actions...  I would suggest that it seems since you have obtained a little education, you have in your own mind become an expert, who is not open to the possibility that someone else, looking at things from a different perspective could also know what they are talking about. Because of your attitude, folks like you are putting our whole west coast salmon at risk, putting all sorts of road blocks in place to try and prove the point that you are smarter than people like Morton.

I want to see more transparency in the investigations. While the truth may be what you suggest, I am not willing to accept your opinion just because you happen to know a little more about the science than I do. Where there is smoke there is usually fire.... and right now Morton and many of us see a lot of smoke!

motivate - embarrass, what ever!
There is no doubt of Ms Morton's motives, but I am concerned that there almost seems like there is a PR problem within her camp. The message seems to be getting out, but the messanger seems to be raising hackles with some, even though they seemingly are on the same side.
No doubt on her passion for the cause but...., and if she's right? most of us suspect somethings wrong. I just would have been happier seeing a report of some sort showing data, and endorsed by a recognised third party or institute. AS I said before.It would have been prudent to send out multiple sample and at least one to a leading news station or paper. This ,I think would quieten the honesty questions.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 30, 2011, 05:52:28 PM
Chris, no one questions Ms. Morton's passion or her obvious love of wild salmon.  And I say good on her for that.
But sadly, she is wearing out her environmental voice because of misleading and erroneous statements, cherry picking data in attempts to make a point, misinterpreting results from studies she has no expertise or experience with. and generally embarrassing herself. You get my point.
IMO she has cried wolf to often and people are starting to realize that..


Only wearing out her environmental voice to a few and of course the government and fish farm people who have the most to lose. The government will do all they can to ride out the storm as they do not want to be proven wrong to allow these terrible farms in our once pristine ocean waters. :(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 30, 2011, 06:45:02 PM
I'm more concerned about the end result of this whole exercise. So what if a few folks are offended along the way and a few more don't like the way Morton is approaching this.  There are also more people that are becoming aware of the fish farm and DFO cover ups!  Dave I find your comment amusing....  "But sadly, she is wearing out her environmental voice because of misleading and erroneous statements, cherry picking data in attempts to make a point, misinterpreting results from studies she has no expertise or experience with. and generally embarrassing herself. You get my point.
IMO she has cried wolf to often and people are starting to realize that.."


I haven't sensed any empathy for Morton from you, only harsh criticism..  Now you are feeling sorry for her because she is "embarrassing herself" ?!?  It's an interesting tact but you will probably have more credibility if you just stick to criticizing her...  :D

My sense is more people.... are listening to her. The New York Times is a widely read paper, not your local Chilliwack Times....  :)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 30, 2011, 07:53:04 PM
I'm more concerned about the end result of this whole exercise. So what if a few folks are offended along the way and a few more don't like the way Morton is approaching this. 
The willingness of many people today to so easily discard ethics, personal integrity, facts and reasoned discussion to acheive an "end result" is a major problem with our society today. And Alex wouldn't be the first person seduced by the celebrity of media and the need to be right at any cost. :(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 30, 2011, 10:11:10 PM
The willingness of many people today to so easily discard ethics, personal integrity, facts and reasoned discussion to acheive an "end result" is a major problem with our society today. And Alex wouldn't be the first person seduced by the celebrity of media and the need to be right at any cost. :(

Curious you would direct those comments only at Morton.....   If you really felt that way you would direct those comments at DFO and the fish farmers as well, wouldn't you?

"Seduced by the media" - If she was really seduced by the media she would have run as an NDP candidate when she had the opportunity! She would have been paid better and she would have had more notoriety than defending Salmon!

"need to right at any cost" - The only cost that she is incurring here is to herself and her reputation. But I'm guessing that you are referring to the fact that by bringing the fish farms lack of respect for the environment to light, she created negative press for them and therefore awareness of the real and perceived devastation these farms are creating....

Change to the established way of doing things doesn't happen by itself. It takes people like Alex to trigger change.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 31, 2011, 04:48:53 AM
The willingness of many people today to so easily discard ethics, personal integrity, facts and reasoned discussion to acheive an "end result" is a major problem with our society today. And Alex wouldn't be the first person seduced by the celebrity of media and the need to be right at any cost. :(
In all respect, if you got to know her like I have the last year and a bit you would find that not to be true.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 31, 2011, 07:27:53 AM
Curious you would direct those comments only at Morton.....   If you really felt that way you would direct those comments at DFO and the fish farmers as well, wouldn't you?


"Many people" includes journalists, politicians, government bureaucrats, salmon farmers, scientists and even activists like Alex, and I would hold them all to to the same ethical standards on an issue that's so important to British Columbia.
You are the one AF who said "I'm more concerned about the end result of this whole exercise. So what if a few folks are offended along the way and a few more don't like the way Morton is approaching this. " Do you really believe the end justifies the means? I find that sad. I don't necessarily disagree with the end result of removing most if not all fish farms from the BC coast but it should be based on an open and honest assessment of the issue. I've found the Cohen Commission testimonies to have been very enlightening in that regard...
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 31, 2011, 07:44:31 AM
In all respect, if you got to know her like I have the last year and a bit you would find that not to be true.
I'm sure she's a wonderful, caring person but the NY Times article about the Fraser coho and her blog response to it are clearly media manipulation for a headline. She's clearly the source of the ISAV "diagnosis" for the NYTimes, then claims she wasn't allowed to tell us, that the PEI lab was "muzzled", but the "information" got out..... Sorry but those kinds of tactics are disingenuous at best.

"The New York Times did what I was not allowed to do - tell you there has been a second diagnosis of Infectious Salmon Anemia virus in wild BC salmon, this time in the Fraser River itself, the biggest wild salmon river in the world. The fish the New York Times is talking about is one that a small group of us picked up, sampled and sent to the world reference lab for the ISA virus. ......The lab never reported back to me, muzzled I suspect, but the information got out. We now have two diagnoses, 600 km apart, in two different species, of two different generations."



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 31, 2011, 08:37:13 AM
Do you really believe the end justifies the means? I find that sad.

The answer is yes in this case, because if we didn't have Alex Morton speaking out for the salmon, the public would be totally unaware of the damage the fish farms are doing. It may already be too late for the wild salmon, but at least we are semi aware of what is happening.

Besides, your suggestions that Morton is unethical and lacks personal integrity are your personal opinion and I think you would find it challenging to try and prove them.

I don't necessarily disagree with the end result of removing most if not all fish farms from the BC coast but it should be based on an open and honest assessment of the issue. I've found the Cohen Commission testimonies to have been very enlightening in that regard...

Get off the fence already! You've made this statement a few times. It doesn't mean anything. Either the farms should stay or they should go. Either they are damaging the ocean environment or they are not. The thing I like about people like Morton is they have a huge amount of personal integrity and courage to make a stand and back it up with action.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on October 31, 2011, 08:43:06 AM
I'm sure she's a wonderful, caring person but the NY Times article about the Fraser coho and her blog response to it are clearly media manipulation for a headline. She's clearly the source of the ISAV "diagnosis" for the NYTimes, then claims she wasn't allowed to tell us, that the PEI lab was "muzzled", but the "information" got out..... Sorry but those kinds of tactics are disingenuous at best.

"The New York Times did what I was not allowed to do - tell you there has been a second diagnosis of Infectious Salmon Anemia virus in wild BC salmon, this time in the Fraser River itself, the biggest wild salmon river in the world. The fish the New York Times is talking about is one that a small group of us picked up, sampled and sent to the world reference lab for the ISA virus. ......The lab never reported back to me, muzzled I suspect, but the information got out. We now have two diagnoses, 600 km apart, in two different species, of two different generations."


This is the New York Times not the National Enquirer! The Times has a reputation to maintain and would not publish a story like this without being certain of the facts. To suggest that Morton could have successfully manipulated a story like this and gotten one of the largest papers in the world to publish it is just laughable.

If there is no basis to the story as you suggest, why haven't we heard that from the fish farm "experts"?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on October 31, 2011, 09:08:23 AM
why is it so hard to have those samples tested, with witnesses tested at differant labs? Does Government have the right to muzzle any lab from reporting back to it's client? this confuses me.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on October 31, 2011, 11:12:43 AM
So those crasy parinoid Alaskans don't farm fish just because farmed salmon have had such a detrimental affect in other countries. Kudo's to them.



ISA virus is serious, so what's B.C. doing about it?
  By Dale Kelley, Special To The SunOctober 31, 2011
  While fishermen are alarmed to learn about the discovery of a European virus in wild British Columbia salmon, the news comes as no great surprise. Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) has erupted in every country that farms salmon. Why would anyone think Canada is immune? Despite the presence of this disease in East Coast farms, British Columbia still allows the importation of non-indigenous Atlantic salmon eggs from other countries. It was just a matter of time.

When Alaska banned fish farms, the top reason was to avoid disease spreading to our wild stocks. What was at stake was no mystery: Norway had already killed entire populations of wild fish due to parasites and disease introduced by imported salmon. Our state wisely chose to avoid such risk; yet folks to the south of us put us squarely in the path of what Alaskans feared the most.

As the representative of Alaska fishermen who rely exclusively on the health of wild fish, I am appalled by the near-silence of the Canadian agencies responsible to protect them. I've reserved comment in hopes that they would send some signal to the public, and West Coast fishermen in particular, that Canada is proactively engaged with a "fish first" attitude.

On Friday Oct. 21 - more than a week after ISA was detected in B.C. salmon - Canadian officials issued a press release devoid of any sense of urgency. They announced they will run more tests, wait several weeks for results, and only then, if additional testing reveals ISA, stakeholders will be convened to, "identify and take appropriate next steps." Really?!

It's sound practice to verify a diagnostic result, particularly one with significant ramifications. What seems beyond the pale is the decision to wait weeks before convening the experts to develop a plan of action. In fact, it's incredible there wasn't a contingency plan in place long before the first farmed fish was placed in an ocean net pen.

At minimum, you'd think the B.C. government would try to reassure us, by pointing to the experts they immediately pulled together to brainstorm how to evaluate the extent of the problem and methods to contain and control it. Instead, in his opening response to questions from the B.C. Legislature, Minister of Agriculture and Lands Don McRae quipped, "Well, we've got another example of spinning media headlines and fearmongering from the Opposition." Not exactly reassuring.

Dr. Frederick Kibenge, who diagnosed ISA in British Columbia, has both studied and diagnosed ISA outbreaks; he runs an ISA specialty lab. How strange that fisheries officials play down the findings of this respected scientist instead of fasttracking an investigation.

We've also read statements that minimize the threat to Pacific salmon. Yet Dr. Kibenge isolated ISA in Pacific coho salmon at a Chilean farm, where large numbers of coho died from the disease. Dr. James Winton, fish health section chief of the U.S. Geological Survey's Western Fisheries Research Center, has conducted much of the research on the topic. Winton has described last week's ISA finding as a "disease emergency" with "global implications."

Canadian officials need to explain to the public precisely what they are doing to monitor and enforce biological safeguards on the fish-farm industry. Canada and the U.S. have a responsibility to protect the wild public resources they hold in trust for us all.

I have no desire to strike fear into the hearts of the public or the fishermen I represent. However, we need transparency and assurance that appropriate steps are underway. If the Canadian government has information to quell our concerns, we have not yet heard it. If they have an effective plan of action, we have not yet seen it. How do fisheries professionals in Canada and along the West Coast intend to safeguard wild fish and fishing communities from the introduction of foreign disease strains now, and into the future? We're listening.

Dale Kelley is executive director of the Alaska Trollers Association.

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 31, 2011, 12:43:21 PM
why is it so hard to have those samples tested, with witnesses tested at differant labs? Does Government have the right to muzzle any lab from reporting back to it's client? this confuses me.
They are doing it...it just takes time to follow proper viral protocols and verification tests. Some of us are waiting to see what unfolds. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/aqua/disemala/anaemia/20111021inde.shtml (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/aqua/disemala/anaemia/20111021inde.shtml)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on October 31, 2011, 12:48:21 PM
This is the New York Times not the National Enquirer! The Times has a reputation to maintain and would not publish a story like this without being certain of the facts. To suggest that Morton could have successfully manipulated a story like this and gotten one of the largest papers in the world to publish it is just laughable.

There are no "facts" in the NY Times story AF. "In documents released Friday, an adult coho salmon supplied by salmon advocates to a prominent laboratory showed signs of carrying the disease." The "diagnosis" was not the results of a lab test, it was a opinion by her and her crew who have no qualifications to make any fish disease diagnosis.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on October 31, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
ton of reading here, http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/infocus-alaune/2010/04/index-eng.htm
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on October 31, 2011, 03:29:13 PM
"Minister of Agriculture and Lands Don McRae quipped, "Well, we've got another example of spinning media headlines and fearmongering from the Opposition." Not exactly reassuring."


It sure sounds like he's got the pig by the horns.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 31, 2011, 03:44:22 PM
Sorry some of this didnot copy, have sent to Rodney and maybe he can make it work.
CG

Chris,

 Please find enclosed below important details re. the spread of a deadly fish farm flu to Fraser River coho salmon (this is a second case in addition to the positive tests of ISA in sockeye salmon from Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast).

 

Please pass onto fishing groups in the Fraser River and your media contacts.

 

‘Internal’ Government documents obtained by GAAIA reveal that this second case (ISAV #2) – in coho salmon in the Fraser River (Weaver Creek which feeds into the Harrison River) - was reported to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) by the World Organization for Animal Health’s (OIE) Reference Laboratory at the Atlantic Veterinary College on October 20 and to the Cohen Commission last week.

 

 

ISA #2 Timeline.jpg

 

The Canadian Government were swift to contact their trade partners in China, Japan, the European Union and the United States and draft “media lines” and “communication products” yet patently failed to notify First Nations, fishermen or the general public.  

 

Trade Partners and Communications.jpg

 

In view of the Canadian Government’s lack of public transparency, GAAIA today made documents available online and is briefing various stakeholders.  The arrogance of briefing Canada’s trade partners but not the people of British Columbia is shocking.

 

 

It is becoming abundantly clear that the Canadian Government and the Norwegian-owned salmon farming companies who control 92% of B.C.’s salmon farms have blood on its hands in relation to the spread of the European genotype of ISA to wild salmon in British Columbia – and potentially beyond the borders of Canada into Washington, Alaska, Russia, Japan, Oregon and California.

 

GAAIA alleges that the Canadian Government - as represented by various agencies including the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) - are guilty of incompetence, silence and arrogance as well as negligence.  In terms of the latter, GAAIA has consulted with a lawyer with a view to a private prosecution or lawsuit related to mischief, breach of public trust and/or malfeasance.  Moreover, once the salmon farming company or companies responsible for spreading ISA have been identified it will open the floodgates to legal action.    

 

Read the letter to the Minister of Fisheries, Keith Ashfield; Minister of Agriculture, Gerry Ritz; and B.C. Minister of Agriculture, Don McRae  - download online here.

 

More details via:

 

"Exclusive Documents Online Now!  ISA reported in coho salmon in the Fraser River" (Fishyleaks, 31st October): http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/fishyleaks

 

"Nightmare in the Fraser River: Deadly disease found in coho opens floodgates to legal action" (Wild Salmon First/GAAIA, 31st October): http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/declaration

 

 

Read more background via the GAAIA reports "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" - online here

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 

Global Alliance Against Industrial Aquaculture
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on October 31, 2011, 11:06:21 PM
What I missed above should be here. Sorry for the delay.

 The leaked documents re. the second case of ISA in coho salmon
sampled on the Fraser River - online now via:
http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/fishyleaks
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 01, 2011, 04:28:17 AM





 B.C. wild-salmon advocates worried about European virus strain
  By Judith Lavoie, Postmedia News November 1, 2011 12:09 AM  Comment 0 •Story•Photos ( 1 )
  Wild-salmon advocates fear that tests showing a serious virus in one Fraser River coho and two wild sockeye salmon mean the European strain of infectious salmon anemia (ISA) could be spreading through B.C.'s wild salmon runs.Photograph by: Rebecca Blissett, Postmedia NewsVICTORIA — Wild-salmon advocates fear that tests showing a serious virus in one Fraser River coho and two wild sockeye salmon mean the European strain of infectious salmon anemia (ISA) could be spreading through B.C.'s wild salmon runs.


But B.C. Salmon Farmers Association spokeswoman Mary Ellen Walling said the positive laboratory tests at the Atlantic Veterinary College have yet to be confirmed by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.


"The CFIA is now doing additional testing on the sockeye and coho to see if they are false positives, which is quite common," she said.


Salmon farmers are worried because the virulent strain of ISA has been shown to kill Atlantic salmon, which are raised in B.C. salmon farms, Walling said.


In Chile, where ISA devastated Atlantic stocks in fish farms, coho salmon, which also were being raised on farms, did not die, she said.


"We are certainly concerned and we are anxiously waiting for the results of their findings. What we have to do is just have confidence in the CFIA and their processes," she said.


Fish-farm opponents believe ISA has been introduced to the Pacific through salmon eggs imported by fish farms.


But Walling said farms are not seeing any unexpected or unexplained diseases.


"We have a good survival rate on the farms," she said.


More than 4,700 farm fish have been tested and there has been no sign of the virus, Walling said.


Biologist Alexandra Morton, who provided the specimens of wild fish for testing, said it is not known which strain of the virus it is and what the effect will be on wild salmon.


But the potential effects could be devastating, she said.


"This is hugely significant. We now have two cases, from 600 kilometres apart, from different species and two different generations," she said.


"What are the chances that two tests on this coast should come back positive? It's a very alarming development."


There are reports from Chile that fish with ISA turned yellow, and Morton said she has found four dead pink salmon and two chinooks whose organs were yellow and flesh white.


"That means to me that this European disease can affect wild Pacific salmon," she said.


Morton believes that, if ISA is proved, it can be traced back to a specific hatchery.


"I think someone should be testing coast-wide right now," she said.


Victoria Times Colonist


Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/wild+salmon+advocates+worried+about+European+virus+strain/5636089/story.html#ixzz1cS62mHsI
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 01, 2011, 04:39:36 AM

ISA virus is serious, so what's B.C. doing about it?
  By Dale Kelley, Special To The Sun October 31, 2011   While fishermen are alarmed to learn about the discovery of a European virus in wild British Columbia salmon, the news comes as no great surprise. Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) has erupted in every country that farms salmon. Why would anyone think Canada is immune? Despite the presence of this disease in East Coast farms, British Columbia still allows the importation of non-indigenous Atlantic salmon eggs from other countries. It was just a matter of time.

When Alaska banned fish farms, the top reason was to avoid disease spreading to our wild stocks. What was at stake was no mystery: Norway had already killed entire populations of wild fish due to parasites and disease introduced by imported salmon. Our state wisely chose to avoid such risk; yet folks to the south of us put us squarely in the path of what Alaskans feared the most.

As the representative of Alaska fishermen who rely exclusively on the health of wild fish, I am appalled by the near-silence of the Canadian agencies responsible to protect them. I've reserved comment in hopes that they would send some signal to the public, and West Coast fishermen in particular, that Canada is proactively engaged with a "fish first" attitude.

On Friday Oct. 21 - more than a week after ISA was detected in B.C. salmon - Canadian officials issued a press release devoid of any sense of urgency. They announced they will run more tests, wait several weeks for results, and only then, if additional testing reveals ISA, stakeholders will be convened to, "identify and take appropriate next steps." Really?!

It's sound practice to verify a diagnostic result, particularly one with significant ramifications. What seems beyond the pale is the decision to wait weeks before convening the experts to develop a plan of action. In fact, it's incredible there wasn't a contingency plan in place long before the first farmed fish was placed in an ocean net pen.

At minimum, you'd think the B.C. government would try to reassure us, by pointing to the experts they immediately pulled together to brainstorm how to evaluate the extent of the problem and methods to contain and control it. Instead, in his opening response to questions from the B.C. Legislature, Minister of Agriculture and Lands Don McRae quipped, "Well, we've got another example of spinning media headlines and fearmongering from the Opposition." Not exactly reassuring.

Dr. Frederick Kibenge, who diagnosed ISA in British Columbia, has both studied and diagnosed ISA outbreaks; he runs an ISA specialty lab. How strange that fisheries officials play down the findings of this respected scientist instead of fasttracking an investigation.

We've also read statements that minimize the threat to Pacific salmon. Yet Dr. Kibenge isolated ISA in Pacific coho salmon at a Chilean farm, where large numbers of coho died from the disease. Dr. James Winton, fish health section chief of the U.S. Geological Survey's Western Fisheries Research Center, has conducted much of the research on the topic. Winton has described last week's ISA finding as a "disease emergency" with "global implications."

Canadian officials need to explain to the public precisely what they are doing to monitor and enforce biological safeguards on the fish-farm industry. Canada and the U.S. have a responsibility to protect the wild public resources they hold in trust for us all.

I have no desire to strike fear into the hearts of the public or the fishermen I represent. However, we need transparency and assurance that appropriate steps are underway. If the Canadian government has information to quell our concerns, we have not yet heard it. If they have an effective plan of action, we have not yet seen it. How do fisheries professionals in Canada and along the West Coast intend to safeguard wild fish and fishing communities from the introduction of foreign disease strains now, and into the future? We're listening.

Dale Kelley is executive director of the Alaska Trollers Association.


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/virus+serious+what+doing+about/5632076/story.html#ixzz1cS8sZirg
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on November 01, 2011, 12:07:45 PM
What I missed above should be here. Sorry for the delay.

 The leaked documents re. the second case of ISA in coho salmon
sampled on the Fraser River - online now via:
http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/fishyleaks

Did you notice that ALL the players that signed the CFIA documents are actors?

The "A/" in front of their titles indicates that they are "acting" (temporarily promoted) in those positions.

A/Regional Director
A/regional Operations Coordinator
A/Director

Coincidence or?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on November 01, 2011, 04:27:10 PM
They hire people to take the flack for big bucks to protect their asses I mean big paycheck. That's "shirking responsibility 101" and an of course having any integrity is a death sentence.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 01, 2011, 07:04:38 PM
"B.C. wild-salmon advocates worried about European virus strain" (The Vancouver Sun/Times Colonist/Montreal Gazette/The Province etc, 1st November): http://www.vancouversun.com/news/wild+salmon+advocates+worried+about+European+virus+strain/5636089/story.html

 

"Another Pacific Salmon Found with Infectious Salmon Anemia" (International Business Times, 1st November): http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/20111101/another-pacific-salmon-found-with-infectious-salmon-anemia.htm

 

"Salmon Feedlot Practices" (Legacy, November): http://issuu.com/steelhead-salmon-society/docs/legacy1111

 

"Surprise? Farmed fish virus found in wild Pacific salmon" (The Spokesman-Review, 1st November): http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/nov/01/surprise-farmed-fish-virus-found-wild-pacific-salmon/

 

"Dear Dr. Marty, Part II" (Salmon Nation and the DFO, 1st November): http://salmon-nation-and-the-dfo.blogspot.com/

 

"Salmon egg producer questions AquaBounty's claims" (Intrafish, 1st November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1259963.ece?lots=comnews&mobile=#

 

"Alaska vil ikke ha lakseoppdrett - Folk i USAs nordligste stat lurer på hvorfor canadierne ikke gjør noe for å stoppe innporten av fiskesykdommer fra Europa" (NRK, 1st November): http://www.nrk.no/kanal/nrk_sapmi/1.7856184?mid=519

 

"We need answers from Canada about fish virus control plans" (The Juneau Empire, 31st October): http://juneauempire.com/opinion/2011-10-31/my-turn-we-need-answers-canada-about-fish-virus-control-plans

 

"Salmon virus doesn't mess around, why does Canada?" (Alaska Dispatch, 31st October): http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/salmon-virus-doesnt-mess-around-why-does-canada

 

"Salmon virus found in more fish" (King 5 News, 31st October): http://www.king5.com/video/featured-videos/Salmon-Virus-Found-In-More-Fish--132965803.html

 

"Dear Dr. Marty, Part 1" (Salmon Nation and the DFO, 31st October): http://salmon-nation-and-the-dfo.blogspot.com/2011/10/dear-dr-marty-part-1.html

 

"Infectious Salmon Anemia discovered on BC coast" (Redwire, 31st October): http://www.redwiremag.com/site/redwire/features/community-news-infectious-salmon-anemia-discovered-on-bc-coast/

 

"Begich hands out 'Frankenfish' buttons in campaign against genetically engineered salmon" (The Associated Press/The Republic, 31st October): http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/4efddd99377a4d0c8a66a04d06171762/AK--Modified-Salmon/

 

"Begich's Halloween howl to senators: Slay the 'frankenfish'" (Anchorage Daily News, 31st October): http://www.adn.com/2011/10/31/2148052/begichs-halloween-howl-to-senators.html

 

""No Frankenfish" button becomes Alaskan senator's Halloween treat" (The Hill, 31st October): http://thehill.com/blogs/twitter-room/other-news/190831-qno-frankenfishq-button-becomes-alaskan-senators-halloween-treat

 

"Alaska fishing rep scolds Canada as virus found in another wild salmon" (Anchorage Daily News, 31st October): http://www.adn.com/2011/10/31/2147603/alaska-fishing-rep-scolds-canada.html

 

"Open letter to Dr. Gary Marty" (Salmon Warriors, 31st October): http://salmonwarriors.blogspot.com/2011/10/open-letter-to-dr-gary-marty-fish.html

"Plan of action must be in place to battle salmon virus" (The Olympian, 31st October): http://www.theolympian.com/2011/10/31/1858729/plan-of-action-must-be-in-place.html

 

"Mainstream makes money in Canada, Marine Harvest not so much" (Fish Farming Xpert, 31st October): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=92891

 

"Shades of Green: The Arrival of Infectious Salmon Anemia Virus" (The Common Sense Canadian, 31st October): http://thecanadian.org/k2/item/1129-shades-of-green-the-arrival-of-infectious-salmon-anemia-virus-ray-grigg

 

"Fish Farm Myths – a growing list" (Fish Farm News and Science, 30th October): http://fishfarmnews.blogspot.com/2011/10/fish-farm-myths-growing-list.html

 

"Infectious salmon anemia (ISA) virus in wild Pacific salmon" (Moon Willow Press, 29th October): http://moonwillowpress.com/ecologue/?p=527

 

"BC government denies obvious at Cohen Commission" (The Cascade, 28th October): http://ufvcascade.ca/2011/10/28/bc-government-denies-obvious-at-cohen-commission/

 

 

Including from Alexandra Morton in today's Vancouver Sun, Ottawa Citizen, Calgary Herald, Province etc:

 

"This is hugely significant. We now have two cases, from 600 kilometres apart, from different species and two different generations.  What are the chances that two tests on this coast should come back positive? It's a very alarming development.  That means to me that this European disease can affect wild Pacific salmon.  I think someone should be testing coast-wide right now."

 

And from Mary-Ellen Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association:

 

"We are certainly concerned and we are anxiously waiting for the results of their findings. What we have to do is just have confidence in the CFIA and their processes."

 

 

Watch King 5 News featuring an interview with Dr. James Winton – online via: http://www.king5.com/video/featured-videos/Salmon-Virus-Found-In-More-Fish--132965803.html

 

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

The first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast is also available online here

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse": http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: BwiBwi on November 01, 2011, 09:06:32 PM
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/infectious_salmon_anemia.pdf (http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/infectious_salmon_anemia.pdf)

http://www.watershed-watch.org/publications/files/SCBC_sockeye_review.pdf (http://www.watershed-watch.org/publications/files/SCBC_sockeye_review.pdf)
Interesting read.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on November 02, 2011, 06:28:24 PM
For the younger readers this disease sounds like something from out of space. But for us that have been around for awhile, you already know it's been a disaster in other countries. They say they identified it in 1984. No doubt it was around before that. I remember reading about it way back and thought is it worth raising salmon and wiping out your local fish.

Nothing wrong with any kind of farming if it's done right.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on November 03, 2011, 02:01:27 PM
Interesting article in the Province today: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Canada+trusted+identify+deadly+salmon+virus+senators/5652096/story.html

Alexandra Morton, an outspoken salmon researcher, on Wednesday revealed test results from a Prince Edward Island lab that allegedly show ISA in a chum and chinook salmon as well.


The US doesn't trust DFO to report the issue honestly, for some reason.

“We should not rely on another government —— particularly one that may have a motive to misrepresent its findings —— to determine how we assess the risk (infectious salmon anemia) may pose to American fishery jobs,” the senators said.

Meanwhile, Canada’s Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which is both in charge of promoting and regulating salmon farms, has dismissed concerns about the virus.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 03, 2011, 02:58:28 PM
Imagine how easy DFO's job would be (and how government could cut that department's budget) if there were no wild salmon. They could promote the ?$** out of the salmon farms up and down the coast because there would be no conflict. The prices of farmed salmon would certainly rise if there were no wild salmon to compete with.

We have never trusted the salmon farmers to look out for the wild salmon and because of the conflict of interest DFO has on the issue, it's impossible to trust them to look after wild salmon..... 

Thank goodness for Morton!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 03, 2011, 03:49:15 PM
  Here's another interesting read, shamelessly cadged from another fishing site just as concerned about this issue:

Bulletin Of The European Association Of Fish Pathologists (2002)
Volume: 22, Issue: 5, Pages: 311-318
ISSN: 01080288
Find this paper at:
openurl.ac.ukWorldCat®Google ScholarEdit library access links Abstract
The emergence of infectious salmon anaemia virus (ISAV) in several countries outside Norway and frequent new outbreaks of the disease within Norway, strongly suggests that there are natural reservoirs for the virus, probably in fish occurring in the coastal waters. Both in Norway and Canada fish farmers have claimed that there could be a possible connection between wild herring (Clupea harengus) migrating through fish farms and an outbreak of ISA in the same farms. It has also been claimed that wet feed made from herring could contain the ISA virus and, hence, transmit the disease to salmon (Salmo salar). Both these claims are "mythical" in that respect that they are not based on any scientific study or verification that the ISA virus may propagate in herring. Hence, the aim of this study was to challenge herring with the ISA virus, check for virus replication and see if the virus could be transmitted from challenged herring to disease-free Atlantic salmon. With the help of RT-PCR it was shown that the herring became infected with the ISA virus after bath challenge. A drop in haematocrit towards day 20 followed the infection. One salmon that was challenged with filtered homogenate made from ISA challenged herring died. However, most of the salmon survived, but they were positive in the RT-PCR test. It is concluded that the ISA virus is able to propagate in herring and that the herring may be an asymptomatic carrier of the virus.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on November 03, 2011, 04:15:59 PM
There was some interesting info in a link posted above: http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/infectious_salmon_anemia.pdf

Decontaminating wastes, including wastewater, from slaughter facilities and fish processing plants prevents infections from this source.

Dumping of the internal organs of potentially infected fish into our waterways doesn't sound like a good idea.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 04, 2011, 07:21:57 AM
The evidence continues to mount, a sorry state of affairs when the governmnt and FOC continues to defend these farms.
So glad we have Alex defending our precious wild salmon.



 Lethal virus threatens wild salmon stocks
 ISA discovered in 4 species
 By Sean Sullivan, The Province November 4, 2011 3:04 AM   A lethal salmon virus that could pose a new threat to B.C.'s prized Pacific salmon has been detected in four wild species, prompting fears about its effect on the multibilliondollar fishery.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is now conducting its own tests, as a group of U.S. senators say Canadian officials can't be trusted to identify the presence of the infectious salmon anemia (ISA) virus.

In a letter to Senate decisionmakers on Wednesday, Sen. Maria Cantwell of Washington and senators Lisa Murkowski and Mark Begich of Alaska argued that the U.S. should conduct independent tests for the contagious disease that has decimated Atlantic salmon farms in Chile and Norway.

"We should not rely on another government - particularly one that may have a motive to misrepresent its findings - to determine how we assess the risk ISA may pose to American fishery jobs," the senators said.

Researchers at Simon Fraser University on Oct. 17 announced the virus was found in two of 48 sockeye smolts collected in B.C.'s Central Coast.

On Wednesday, biologist and salmon advocate Alexandra Morton learned that an ISA lab at the Atlantic Veterinary College in P.E.I. found evidence of the virus in three of 10 dead fish - a Chinook, coho and chum - she pulled from the Harrison River on Oct. 12.

"The terrible thing about the work that myself and [SFU researcher Rick] Routledge have done is that it's tiny," Morton told The Province. "We looked at 60 fish, and we got it in two different generations, 600 kilometres apart. That's a huge red flag."

ISA's effect on Pacific Salmon - if any - isn't known. This is

the first time the disease has been found in wild Pacific salmon, raising fears among advocates that the already stressed wild stocks could be further jeopardized.

A spokeswoman for Fisheries and Oceans said Morton's samples are now being tested in Canada's official ISA lab in Moncton, N.B.

New Westminster-Coquitlam MP Fin Donnelly raised the issue in Ottawa Thursday, calling on the government to develop an action plan to deal with the virus on Canada's West Coast.

"Concern is mounting both in British Columbia and the United States that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is not taking this threat seriously," he said.

Some have suggested that the virus may have come from Atlantic salmon eggs imported to local fish farms from Chile or Norway.

Salmon farmers have been quick to shoot down those claims, as has the Canadian government.

"In recent years we tested over 5,000 wild and farmed B.C. salmon without a single case of confirmed ISA in B.C.," said Randy Kamp, the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

Chile, a major producer of farmed Atlantic salmon, has seen its wild fish stocks decimated by ISA over the last four years.


Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Lethal+virus+threatens+wild+salmon+stocks/5656456/story.html#ixzz1ckKoue00
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on November 04, 2011, 09:49:25 AM
You can bet that if this virus wipes out the wild salmon on the Pacific coast like it has done in several other countries where fish farms are common, the Federal government will have to pay damages to First Nations, commercial fisherman, fish processing plants and any other group that receives an income from the fishing industry for many years to come.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on November 04, 2011, 10:18:49 AM
The evidence continues to mount, a sorry state of affairs when the governmnt and FOC continues to defend these farms.
So glad we have Alex defending our precious wild salmon.



 Lethal virus threatens wild salmon stocks
 ISA discovered in 4 species
 By Sean Sullivan, The Province November 4, 2011 3:04 AM   A lethal salmon virus that could pose a new threat to B.C.'s prized Pacific salmon has been detected in four wild species, prompting fears about its effect on the multibilliondollar fishery.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is now conducting its own tests, as a group of U.S. senators say Canadian officials can't be trusted to identify the presence of the infectious salmon anemia (ISA) virus.

In a letter to Senate decisionmakers on Wednesday, Sen. Maria Cantwell of Washington and senators Lisa Murkowski and Mark Begich of Alaska argued that the U.S. should conduct independent tests for the contagious disease that has decimated Atlantic salmon farms in Chile and Norway.

"We should not rely on another government - particularly one that may have a motive to misrepresent its findings - to determine how we assess the risk ISA may pose to American fishery jobs," the senators said.

Researchers at Simon Fraser University on Oct. 17 announced the virus was found in two of 48 sockeye smolts collected in B.C.'s Central Coast.

On Wednesday, biologist and salmon advocate Alexandra Morton learned that an ISA lab at the Atlantic Veterinary College in P.E.I. found evidence of the virus in three of 10 dead fish - a Chinook, coho and chum - she pulled from the Harrison River on Oct. 12.

"The terrible thing about the work that myself and [SFU researcher Rick] Routledge have done is that it's tiny," Morton told The Province. "We looked at 60 fish, and we got it in two different generations, 600 kilometres apart. That's a huge red flag."

ISA's effect on Pacific Salmon - if any - isn't known. This is

the first time the disease has been found in wild Pacific salmon, raising fears among advocates that the already stressed wild stocks could be further jeopardized.

A spokeswoman for Fisheries and Oceans said Morton's samples are now being tested in Canada's official ISA lab in Moncton, N.B.

New Westminster-Coquitlam MP Fin Donnelly raised the issue in Ottawa Thursday, calling on the government to develop an action plan to deal with the virus on Canada's West Coast.

"Concern is mounting both in British Columbia and the United States that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is not taking this threat seriously," he said.

Some have suggested that the virus may have come from Atlantic salmon eggs imported to local fish farms from Chile or Norway.

Salmon farmers have been quick to shoot down those claims, as has the Canadian government.

"In recent years we tested over 5,000 wild and farmed B.C. salmon without a single case of confirmed ISA in B.C.," said Randy Kamp, the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

Chile, a major producer of farmed Atlantic salmon, has seen its wild fish stocks decimated by ISA over the last four years.


Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Lethal+virus+threatens+wild+salmon+stocks/5656456/story.html#ixzz1ckKoue00

and now they are even looking at herring, apparently a known carrier in European water and possibly transmitted through herring based food pellets.
http://www.mendeley.com/research/herring-clupea-harengus-host-infectious-salmon-anemia-virus-isav-6/

cat's amongst the pigeons now, I think, and hope.
latest spin is they, the salmon were only slightly infected :(   F.S. It's here , face it, and move on.

Time to start bugging your Mp's seriously to place a hefty boot right up to the knees in Dfo's AR$e, and get some sort of plan together. Instead of shoving their collective heads up each others Ar$es.

Talk about frozen in the headlights.

Also folks checkout the other sites as well about this disaster, take note, most have the same concerns, this is beyond the tackle box issues.


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 04, 2011, 02:50:31 PM

As Sandy notes other forums are following this closely.  Here is something posted earlier, written by the people who have the most to lose if indeed the lethal version of this virus is actually here in BC.  Sorry, wasn't able to copy over the report links but perhaps others could.
Just another reason to wait for the conclusive science before jumping off the Port Mann :D

No conclusive evidence of ISA virus in B.C. fish after independent retesting
Thu, 2011-11-03
Independent tests at one of the world's top ISA virus research labs reanalyzed 48 samples of Pacific salmon and did not find conclusive evidence that any of the fish had ISA.

This week, Dr. Are Nylund at the University of Bergen (Norway) reanalyzed tests done last month on 48 Pacific salmon by Dr. Fred Kibenge at the University of Prince Edward Island (UPEI). After extensive re-testing, Nylund did not find conclusive evidence that the fish had the Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) virus.

Sampling for this virus is extremely sensitive, so Dr. Nylund tested and retested the samples. One of the samples was tested 33 times; in that sample he found one weak positive result and 32 negative results.

In a recent interview, of which Mainstream has obtained a copy, Dr. Nylund explained, "The test material we received was of poor quality, and all tests were negative except the one which was weakly positive. This means that I could not confirm the results from Kibenge, since he found two clearly positive findings and concluded that this had European origin."

Dr. Nylund continued, "This also means that a virus having genetic similarities with ISA or something totally different may be picked up by the test. Therefore we need to sequence/genotype the virus to provide serious comment on the origin."

He said the findings could represent a previously unknown type of Pacific Ocean virus.

"Not all ISA-type findings are described, and there are surely many we have not yet discovered," he said.

Nylund said that it's possible any newly-discovered virus could have its origins in ancient evolution.

"Today there are several examples of pathogens that are related and which have a North Pacific and a North Atlantic type. One example of this is the Paramyxo virus," he said. "The reason for this is that the salmon and some of its pathogens in the Pacific and Atlantic once had the same origin, but they have developed differently as they have been geographically isolated over a long time."

Thousands of farmed and wild salmon have been tested for the Infectious Salmon Anemia virus (ISAV), in British Columbia, including more than 1,200 in 2011 alone. All of those tests were negative and they show that to date, there is no ISAV in our fish, farmed or wild.

But two weeks ago anti-aquaculture activist Alexandra Morton claimed Pacific salmon collected by Simon Fraser University researchers had been infected with the European ISA virus. She made the claim before the tests were even concluded, spreading fear and concern without any basis in fact.

The fish were sent for re-testing to one of the world's top ISA virus research labs at the University of Bergen in Norway and those results do not support Dr. Kibenge's findings, nor do they give conclusive findings on the origin of the virus.

We are glad these tests were done, as they provide a good scientific control for the results announced publicly two weeks ago.

Another new lab report published by Ms. Morton indicates that Kibenge tested another batch of samples she submitted, and one of the 20 apparently showed a weak positive result.

However, Kibenge cautioned in his report that "the presence of ISA virus sequences in the tissue samples does not imply that the subject fish had ISA or that ISA is present in the area where the subject fish were collected from." Further genetic testing is again necessary to determine if the latest results from UPEI mean anything, or if the results were also skewed because of poor-quality samples.

Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) is doing proper tests now to determine whether it can reach the same conclusions and will be investigating the chain of custody (scientific procedure for collecting and storing samples to prevent contamination).

We believe that it is more important than ever to wait for the lead agency on this file to give the final word on this issue, and for them to complete their battery of tests before jumping to any conclusions. We urge the CFIA scientists to quickly conclude their investigation and publish their findings.

Mainstream, along with the rest of the B.C. salmon farming industry, has offered to provide further samples for testing by CFIA and are advocating for more sampling and testing of our region's wild fish and for continuation of the surveillance program.

Mainstream Canada

For more information please contact
Grant Warkentin, Communications Officer
250-286-0022 ext. 247
grant.warkentin@mainstreamcanada.com
 

Sources

Dr. Are Nylund's lab report

Dr. Are Nylund's interview

Dr. Fred Kibenge's lab report



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 04, 2011, 03:06:34 PM
Interesting Dave. There is a lot of hysteria going on and fish virology is so far out of our knowledge range it's easy to get excited about tidbits of info that really don't mean anything specific to a virologist.

Nyland's comment that there is no reason to believe there couldn't be natural viruses in our wild fish that have similar RNA sequences to the Atlantic ISA virus and would come up positive in an ISA test. They know so little about fish viruses except for the ones that cause major disease problems....why look at fish virus that may be to a fish like a cold virus is to humans.

We need to relax and let independent CFIA do their jobs and tell us what's really going on. Unfortunately, it takes time to the proper science.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 08, 2011, 07:21:29 AM
http://www.theprogress.com/news/133276123.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 08, 2011, 07:50:13 AM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Close down B.C. salmon feedlots" (The Windsor Star, 8th November): http://www.windsorstar.com/opinion/Close+down+salmon+feedlots/5672623/story.html

 

"Environmental Defence Society calls for freeze on King Salmon proposals in Sounds" (Scoop, 8th November): http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1111/S00212/eds-calls-for-freeze-on-king-salmon-proposals-in-sounds.htm

 

"Salmon proposal passes hurdle" (The Marlborough Express, 8th November): http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/5929397/Salmon-proposal-passes-hurdle

 

"Dr. Alexandra Morton at Occupy Vancouver" (EVO TV, 7th November): http://www.youtube.com/user/EcoVillageTV#p/u/2/nS_jvSD_Uq8

 

"Fish farms' risks on the menu" (The Canadian Press/Castanet, 7th November): http://www.castanet.net/news/BC/67022/Fish-farms-risks-on-the-menu

 

"Salmon hearing participants clash openly in final submissions" (The Globe & Mail, 7th November):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/salmon-hearing-participants-clash-openly-in-final-submissions/article2228742/

 

"Salmon Testing Hotline" (Salmon Are Sacred, 7th November): http://www.salmonaresacred.org/salmon-testing-hotline

 

"B.C. salmon inquiry asked to weigh fish farms' risks on migrating stocks" (The Canadian Press/Winnipeg Free Press/Brandon Sun/The Tyee, 7th November): http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/greenpage/bc-salmon-inquiry-asked-to-weigh-fish-farms-risks-on-migrating-stocks-133403608.html

 

"Controversial fish farm planning bid is dropped" (Hebrides News, 7th November): http://www.hebrides-news.com/harris-salmon-farm-row-71111.html

 

"Anxiety up as more salmon virus found in B.C." (MSN Money/The Columbian/Bellingham Herald/The Olympian/Associated Press/Washington Examiner, 7th November): http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20111107&id=14492280

 

"More Reports of Salmon Virus Found in Canadian Waters" (The Sun Break, 7th November): http://thesunbreak.com/2011/11/07/more-reports-of-salmon-virus-found-in-canada/

 

"Governor: 'We'll squeeze Norwegian salmon out of Russia': Large-scale plans for Murmansk fish farming put Norway's place in Russian market at risk" (Intrafish, 7th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/

 

"Grieg tightlipped on salmon lice photo: producer would not comment on photo which shows 20 lice on just one side of the salmon" (Intrafish, 7th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/

 
"Salmon farmers present final oral arguments at Cohen Commission" (BC Salmon Farmers Association, 7th November): http://www.salmonfarmers.org/salmon-farmers-present-final-oral-arguments-cohen-commission

 

"Low farmed salmon prices hit Norwegian seafood export values" (Fish News EU, 7th November): http://www.fishnewseu.com/latest-news/world/6996-low-farmed-salmon-prices-hit-norwegian-seafood-export-values.html

 

"Doubts mount on suspected ISA findings - Dr. Fred Kibenge states new salmon sample tests are underway" (FIS, 7th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=7&id=47384&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Salmon virus spawns fears" (Metro News/The Canadian Press, 7th November): http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/local/article/1017428--salmon-virus-spawns-fears

 

"Cohen Commission sets 2 days aside for ISA concerns" (Courier-Islander, 4th November): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/story.html?id=c55fc169-2628-425e-a480-84ecb5595a2f

 

"Salmon virus added to the Cohen Commission’s to-do list" (Outdoor Canada, 4th November): http://outdoorcanada.ca/15939/blogs/field-findings/salmon-virus-added-to-the-cohen-commissions-to-do-list

 

 

Including from Alan Blair, counsel for the BC Salmon Farmers Association at the Cohen Commission yesterday (quoted in The Canadian Press):

 

"Each one of these risks is brought breathlessly to the public in a sensational way and each one so far has been demonstrated to be something less than advertised"

 

From Greg McDade, counsel for the Aquaculture Coalition (including Alexandra Morton):

 

"The real issue here is proof versus risk," said McDade. "The risk here is real. Don't wait for 10 years until this is proven and we have no fish left."

 

And a letter in today's Windsor Star:

 

"That the virus has been identified as the European strain places salmon farms squarely in the firing line - over 90 per cent of B.C.'s salmon farming production is Atlantic salmon.  Norwegian companies - who control over 90 per cent of B.C.'s salmon farms - should take their disease-ridden feedlots back home to Norway and foul their own nest if they must.  Salmon feedlots are a cancer on our coasts and need to be ripped out - now."

 

 

Watch Alexandra Morton addressing Occupy Vancouver yesterday: http://www.youtube.com/user/EcoVillageTV#p/u/2/nS_jvSD_Uq8

 

 

Please note the final oral submissions of the Cohen Commission in Vancouver continue today (8th) until 10th November – details via: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/Schedule/

 

Scheduled to present this morning is Tim Leadem representing the Conservation Coalition and Don Rosenbloom representing fishing groups.

 

If you cannot make it in person tune in to live audio coverage via http://www.cohencommission.ca/AudioCast.php

 

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

The first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast is also available online here

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse": http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on November 08, 2011, 10:23:22 AM
As Sandy notes other forums are following this closely.  Here is something posted earlier, written by the people who have the most to lose if indeed the lethal version of this virus is actually here in BC.  Sorry, wasn't able to copy over the report links but perhaps others could.
Just another reason to wait for the conclusive science before jumping off the Port Mann :D

No conclusive evidence of ISA virus in B.C. fish after independent retesting
Thu, 2011-11-03
Independent tests at one of the world's top ISA virus research labs reanalyzed 48 samples of Pacific salmon and did not find conclusive evidence that any of the fish had ISA.

This week, Dr. Are Nylund at the University of Bergen (Norway) reanalyzed tests done last month on 48 Pacific salmon by Dr. Fred Kibenge at the University of Prince Edward Island (UPEI). After extensive re-testing, Nylund did not find conclusive evidence that the fish had the Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) virus.

Sampling for this virus is extremely sensitive, so Dr. Nylund tested and retested the samples. One of the samples was tested 33 times; in that sample he found one weak positive result and 32 negative results.

In a recent interview, of which Mainstream has obtained a copy, Dr. Nylund explained, "The test material we received was of poor quality, and all tests were negative except the one which was weakly positive. This means that I could not confirm the results from Kibenge, since he found two clearly positive findings and concluded that this had European origin."

Dr. Nylund continued, "This also means that a virus having genetic similarities with ISA or something totally different may be picked up by the test. Therefore we need to sequence/genotype the virus to provide serious comment on the origin."

He said the findings could represent a previously unknown type of Pacific Ocean virus.

"Not all ISA-type findings are described, and there are surely many we have not yet discovered," he said.

Nylund said that it's possible any newly-discovered virus could have its origins in ancient evolution.

"Today there are several examples of pathogens that are related and which have a North Pacific and a North Atlantic type. One example of this is the Paramyxo virus," he said. "The reason for this is that the salmon and some of its pathogens in the Pacific and Atlantic once had the same origin, but they have developed differently as they have been geographically isolated over a long time."

Thousands of farmed and wild salmon have been tested for the Infectious Salmon Anemia virus (ISAV), in British Columbia, including more than 1,200 in 2011 alone. All of those tests were negative and they show that to date, there is no ISAV in our fish, farmed or wild.

But two weeks ago anti-aquaculture activist Alexandra Morton claimed Pacific salmon collected by Simon Fraser University researchers had been infected with the European ISA virus. She made the claim before the tests were even concluded, spreading fear and concern without any basis in fact.

The fish were sent for re-testing to one of the world's top ISA virus research labs at the University of Bergen in Norway and those results do not support Dr. Kibenge's findings, nor do they give conclusive findings on the origin of the virus.

We are glad these tests were done, as they provide a good scientific control for the results announced publicly two weeks ago.

Another new lab report published by Ms. Morton indicates that Kibenge tested another batch of samples she submitted, and one of the 20 apparently showed a weak positive result.

However, Kibenge cautioned in his report that "the presence of ISA virus sequences in the tissue samples does not imply that the subject fish had ISA or that ISA is present in the area where the subject fish were collected from." Further genetic testing is again necessary to determine if the latest results from UPEI mean anything, or if the results were also skewed because of poor-quality samples.

Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) is doing proper tests now to determine whether it can reach the same conclusions and will be investigating the chain of custody (scientific procedure for collecting and storing samples to prevent contamination).

We believe that it is more important than ever to wait for the lead agency on this file to give the final word on this issue, and for them to complete their battery of tests before jumping to any conclusions. We urge the CFIA scientists to quickly conclude their investigation and publish their findings.

Mainstream, along with the rest of the B.C. salmon farming industry, has offered to provide further samples for testing by CFIA and are advocating for more sampling and testing of our region's wild fish and for continuation of the surveillance program.

Mainstream Canada

For more information please contact
Grant Warkentin, Communications Officer
250-286-0022 ext. 247
grant.warkentin@mainstreamcanada.com
 

Sources

Dr. Are Nylund's lab report

Dr. Are Nylund's interview

Dr. Fred Kibenge's lab report





This is why anything out of Mortons mouth should be taken with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 08, 2011, 01:38:52 PM
This is why anything out of Mortons mouth should be taken with a grain of salt.
In all respect if Alex was not there who would be working to get the truth out, certainly not the fish farm industry or some governments that are trying to cover this up.
Some of the goings on at Cohen showed that.

Why do you think we here in British Columbia are any different than all the other countries that have had their wild stocks damaged by fish farms?

I have asked that so many times but no one answers that question for me, hopefully you will be the fist to do so.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 08, 2011, 02:08:32 PM
just like the question i always ask Chris, can anyone tell me the positive environmental benefits of having the lice farms in the ocean, why have them there in the first place, why play russian roulette with our pacific ecosystem, what good is going to come out of it?, nobody has EVER given me an answer, let alone one that makes sense, buler?,buler?, buler?.....anyone?, not likely, cause there is NO POSITIVE BENEFIT, only negetive, and even when they are placed on land, there is still another problem, they will still be using the same food source, which is ridiculous as well... >:( ..holmes*
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: EZ_Rolling on November 08, 2011, 02:40:32 PM
finally Holmes and I agree....

other than a small financial benefit that goes to out of country interests I see no reason for these farms, the value of the product they sell is getting worse by the day and undervaluing other viable fisheries.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 08, 2011, 03:20:37 PM
Likewise I would like to see any actual proof of negative impact caused by the farms.
I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that they are actually harming anything.

Salmon runs collapsing?
-Last 2 years shows that it's most likely ocean conditions after these 2 banner years.

Sludge under farms with nothing there?
-Not sure what I would expect to find in an aphotic zone of the ocean. Not much of the ocean floor is inhabited.

Eating same food as wild stocks?
-What about the MILLIONS of pinks the Chinese, etc release into the ocean for "salmon ranching" (much like enhancement hatcheries, except larger numbers and all are harvested when they come back) that we never hear about, which are actually competing with wild salmon for food. Farms have a strict limit of food fish they are allotted to catch every year. This is monitored very carefully. In fact, salmon farming has the most strict set of rules out of any farming/food producing operation.

Polluting the ocean?
-Almost laughable. Way worse is the massive ball of trash floating around out there. Why does no one focus on that? Why focus on something that is producing organic waste?

One could argue the positive benefit is that they are taking pressure off wild stocks in the form of over fishing (to produce enough fish for a growing population).
Financial contribution is also there, although I believe the financial contribution of wild salmon is far greater.

By the way here is something my teacher sent me today:
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2011/11/08/bc-wild-salmon-test-negative-for-deadly-virus-cfia-reports/

Hmmmm......

Cheers,
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 08, 2011, 03:56:29 PM
Wow Every Day!  It's like someone has hijacked your user on this forum when it comes to your opinion on salmon farming.  I had to go back into the "archives" here on FWR to re-read some of your posts on Salmon Farming just to see that I was reading this right.  Your knowledge base sure has grown on the topic.  I remember you being very confident that the dooms day predictions of Morton and her " save a wild fish/eat a wild fish" mentality, were fact.  I know your not a pro salmon farm person still but at least you now know that there is a lot of negative BS out there that simply is not true.

Shame on Morton again for her fear mongering tactics which once again will likely see, are not true.  They call her a Doctor?  Why?  She certainly does not behave like one.   Biologist?  More like Fearologist.  That is all. 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 08, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
 Good stuff Dan ;)  So let's see here ... pink salmon extinction, the decimation of Fraser sockeye, sea lice infestations, over use of antibiotics, killing the ocean floor, the yellow pink thingy (absolutely the worst mistake she made for any credibility, imo), this latest "pestilence" scare, etc, all kinda panned out.

Want to say more but no, not yet.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 08, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
   ... and salmon farms are absolute dead zones within one kilometer.  WRONG!!!!
...  farmed salmon contain lethal levels of PCB's and are unfit for consumption.   WRONG !!!!!
..  Farmed Atlantic s will out compete  wild salmon in the rivers to reproduce and reproduce successfully.  WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!
... The yellow fish thing.....   EMBARRASSING!!!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 08, 2011, 05:31:04 PM
This could be a long winter for all involved    ::):


BC salmon test negative for deadly virus, CFIA reports Randy Shore, Vancouver Sun : Tuesday, November 08, 2011 6:06 PM



New testing by Canada's Department of Fisheries and Oceans has found no sign of the ISA virus in B.C. wild salmon.

SFU researcher Rick Routledge and salmon farming opponent Alexandra Morton reported last month that samples taken from B.C. sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet had tested positive for the ISA virus, which is known to be lethal to Atlantic salmon of the kind widely farmed in B.C.

The CFIA reported today that additional testing has not confirmed the results released by Morton and Routledge.

The virus is not known to be harmful to Pacific wild salmon, but it could have devastated the salmon farming industry.

The BC Salmon Farmers Association response to the news follows:

News that no Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) was detected in follow up testing of Pacific salmon samples by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is welcome information for B.C.'s salmon farmers.

Following up on unconfirmed results publicized widely by anti-salmon farm campaigners four weeks ago, the CFIA tested the same sample collection plus additional samples collected and had no positive results for ISA.

"This is a significant result for everyone involved: researchers, regulators, wild salmon advocates, salmon farmers and our coastal communities," said Mary Ellen Walling, Executive Director. "After seeing the original news distributed in such an inflammatory way, we hope this update will allay those concerns."

On Oct. 17, Simon Fraser University hosted a press conference claiming that positive results had been found in two of 48 smolt samples tested for ISAv. This was contrary to every other previous test for ISA in B.C. with nearly 5,000 fish analyzed since 2003. They all showed negative for the virus.

In the follow up testing done by CFIA, all of those 48 smolts tested negative as did other samples collected by CFIA from researchers involved. Some samples were too degraded for testing to be completed.

The allegation that ISA had been found in B.C. was concerning to B.C. salmon farmers who, while confident that the extensive testing showed ISA is not on their farms, were worried about the possible effect of the virus which is harmful to Atlantic salmon. Pacific salmon are relatively immune to ISAv.

"This is a good example of why proper sampling, testing and reporting procedures are in place and should be followed: the unconfirmed report from Simon Fraser appeared to be designed to create as much hype as possible. This has cost significant resources in time and money in emergency follow-up while also potentially impacting international markets for our business," said Walling.

"We're pleased to see the thorough way CFIA is following up, but are dismayed at the way campaigners used this to create fear about our operations," said Walling.

The BCSFA understands that the investigation by the CFIA is continuing. The industry is providing any additional information to the CFIA as needed. In the meantime, our farmers continue in their regular, ongoing sampling/monitoring program.

The BCSFA represents salmon farm companies and those who supply services and supplies to the industry. Salmon-farming provides for 6,000 direct and indirect jobs while contributing $800-million to the provincial economy each year.

© Shaw Media Inc., 2011. All rights reserved.


Read it on Global News: Global BC | BC salmon test negative for deadly virus, CFIA reports
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 08, 2011, 08:00:44 PM
Good stuff Dan ;)  So let's see here ... pink salmon extinction, the decimation of Fraser sockeye, sea lice infestations, over use of antibiotics, killing the ocean floor, the yellow pink thingy (absolutely the worst mistake she made for any credibility, imo), this latest "pestilence" scare, etc, all kinda panned out.

Want to say more but no, not yet.

   ... and salmon farms are absolute dead zones within one kilometer.  WRONG!!!!
...  farmed salmon contain lethal levels of PCB's and are unfit for consumption.   WRONG !!!!!
..  Farmed Atlantic s will out compete  wild salmon in the rivers to reproduce and reproduce successfully.  WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!
... The yellow fish thing.....   EMBARRASSING!!!


You guys are sounding like what you suggest Morton sounds like.

However because we know that she isn't benefiting from the fish farm industry, I'm inclined to accept her words over yours....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 08, 2011, 08:53:06 PM
Quote
   ... and salmon farms are absolute dead zones within one kilometer.  WRONG!!!!
...  farmed salmon contain lethal levels of PCB's and are unfit for consumption.   WRONG !!!!!
..  Farmed Atlantic s will out compete  wild salmon in the rivers to reproduce and reproduce successfully.  WRONG AGAIN!!!!!!
... The yellow fish thing.....   EMBARRASSING!!!

AF,

The above list is a portion of the claims made by morton in the past that have been proven to be totally false. Its just strange that you would hold on to any of these old ideas as fact.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 08, 2011, 09:01:04 PM
Likewise I would like to see any actual proof of negative impact caused by the farms.
I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that they are actually harming anything.

Salmon runs collapsing?
-Last 2 years shows that it's most likely ocean conditions after these 2 banner years.

Sludge under farms with nothing there?
-Not sure what I would expect to find in an aphotic zone of the ocean. Not much of the ocean floor is inhabited.

Eating same food as wild stocks?
-What about the MILLIONS of pinks the Chinese, etc release into the ocean for "salmon ranching" (much like enhancement hatcheries, except larger numbers and all are harvested when they come back) that we never hear about, which are actually competing with wild salmon for food. Farms have a strict limit of food fish they are allotted to catch every year. This is monitored very carefully. In fact, salmon farming has the most strict set of rules out of any farming/food producing operation.

Polluting the ocean?
-Almost laughable. Way worse is the massive ball of trash floating around out there. Why does no one focus on that? Why focus on something that is producing organic waste?

One could argue the positive benefit is that they are taking pressure off wild stocks in the form of over fishing (to produce enough fish for a growing population).
Financial contribution is also there, although I believe the financial contribution of wild salmon is far greater.

By the way here is something my teacher sent me today:
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2011/11/08/bc-wild-salmon-test-negative-for-deadly-virus-cfia-reports/

Hmmmm......

Cheers,
Dan







one could try and argue that every day , but what about the pressure being put on the wild stocks with regards to competing for food because in order to produce food for the lice farms, the food has to come from someplace, so where do ya think that is?, you bet, rite out of the environment that the wild salmon live in, pretty much rite out of their mouths...... >:( .....holmes*
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 08, 2011, 09:07:11 PM
and for someone to say that there is no negetive environMENTAL impact to the environment is totally out to lunch to put it politely, you gotta be f*&%ing kidding me....holmes*
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 08, 2011, 09:22:58 PM
Quote
the food has to come from someplace, so where do ya think that is?, you bet, rite out of the environment that the wild salmon live in, pretty much rite out of their mouths.....

I guess this would be true if bc salmon went to the south pacific and the Atlantic to feed.  
Like your avatar your pissin in the wind on that one.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 08, 2011, 09:23:27 PM
AF,

The above list is a portion of the claims made by morton in the past that have been proven to be totally false. Its just strange that you would hold on to any of these old ideas as fact.



I find it's strange than you and the fish farms are claiming that fish farms aren't damaging wild fish or the environment. Why would I believe you over Morton? Most of us determine the credibility of a source based on who signs their pay cheques....

I know that Morton makes very little money from what she does. Her motivation is a desire to save the Pacific wild salmon.

How much money does the industry stand to lose if Morton's claims are correct?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 08, 2011, 09:27:17 PM
Quote
Her motivation is a desire

Perhaps, but you should know that morton, while playing the pour card is likely, very, VERY wealthy.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 08, 2011, 09:42:25 PM
I guess this would be true if bc salmon went to the south pacific and the Atlantic to feed.  
Like your avatar your pissin in the wind on that one.

sure thing chief... ::)...holmes*
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 08, 2011, 09:45:08 PM
Likewise I would like to see any actual proof of negative impact caused by the farms.
I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that they are actually harming anything.



Cheers,
Dan
Look what has happened in other countries Dan, can you give me an answer why it will be different here, no one here has given me an answer yet, maybe it is because they do not have one. :(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 08, 2011, 09:55:50 PM
Good stuff Dan ;)  So let's see here ... pink salmon extinction, the decimation of Fraser sockeye, sea lice infestations, over use of antibiotics, killing the ocean floor, the yellow pink thingy (absolutely the worst mistake she made for any credibility, imo), this latest "pestilence" scare, etc, all kinda panned out.

Want to say more but no, not yet.
Before you do read this.

http://salmonwarriors.blogspot.com/2011/11/salmongate.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 08, 2011, 09:58:12 PM
Perhaps, but you should know that morton, while playing the pour card is likely, very, VERY wealthy.

That's pulling at straws....   ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 08, 2011, 10:02:39 PM
Look what has happened in other countries Dan, can you give me an answer why it will be different here, no one here has given me an answer yet, maybe it is because they do not have one. :(

Have you been following the inquiry, Chris?  Or have you just been following Morton's blog?  If you have taken the time to read ALL of the testimony and see ALL of the exhibits from the aquaculture portion on the inquiry it would have spelled it out for you.  Today is just another example of sloppy science from your "superior scientist".  Time to be objective about this instead of just rehashing more Morton dribble.

Holmes, your line of questioning is so pre-school.  The environment would benefit much better if we did absolutely nothing to it.  Big mystery!  You are so friking brilliant!  But guess what?  All that produce you eat and all that cattle meat you consume likely came from land that was altered to accommodate food production.  That's right...fish habitat and wildlife habitat altered to produce what you eat on a daily basis.  What do you think was underneath all those parking lots in Burnaby and Coquitlam at one time.  Where is your protesting spirt now?  Go take another sip of Morton Kool-Aid.

Quote
Why would I believe you over Morton? Most of us determine the credibility of a source based on who signs their pay cheques....
That is a lame excuse commonly used by critics that is so old now.  You should understand that many of the people who take the opposite view do not work for fish farms.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 08, 2011, 10:09:52 PM
Have you been following the inquiry, Chris?  Or have you just been following Morton's blog?  If you have taken the time to read ALL of the testimony and see ALL of the exhibits from the aquaculture portion on the inquiry it would have spelled it out for you.  Today is just another example of sloppy science from your "superior scientist".  Time to be objective about this instead of just rehashing more Morton dribble.

Holmes, your line of questioning is so pre-school.  The environment would benefit much better if we did absolutely nothing to it.  Big mystery!  You are so friking brilliant!  But guess what?  All that produce you eat and all that cattle meat you consume likely came from land that was altered to accommodate food production.  That's right...fish habitat and wildlife habitat altered to produce what you eat on a daily basis.  What do you think was underneath all those parking lots in Burnaby and Coquitlam at one time.  Where is your protesting spirt now?  Go take another sip of Morton Kool-Aid.
That is a lame excuse commonly used by critics that is so old now.  You should understand that many of the people who take the opposite view do not work for fish farms.
You too have not answered my questions above.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 08, 2011, 10:29:04 PM
You should understand that many of the people who take the opposite view do not work for fish farms.

That's exactly my point! Most of the people supporting the fish farms work for them or for DFO, whose responsibility is to promote fish farms. There is even someone on this forum who has reversed his position of opposing fish farms, perhaps in anticipation of landing an aquaculture related job when he completes his education.

Can you see the pattern here?  I appreciate everyone is entitled to a paycheque, but no one is naive enough to not know that the organization that hands out the paycheque has a significant influence on what they say.....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 08, 2011, 10:35:17 PM
Its hard to respond to those whose ears drip the morton dribble but this is a bit of why. IMO

Bc like other locations in other countrys has its own set of unique  circumstances  environmentally and economically.

First and foremost we have Pacific salmon stocks which seem to be fairly resilient compared to Atlantic salmon and other species that may be effected.  Look at the great lakes for example.  Most of the pacific species there (springs, coho, pinks, stealhead)seem to have made a fair go of it there all the while atlatics there struggle to make their comeback. 

  One has to wade through a fair amount of misinformation about what has actually happened in other places.  Chile for example has no wild salmon but you will hear that there stock have been wiped out by farmed salmon but the only thing that happened there was that most of the farm salmon(atlantics) died from ISA.  There are other issues of course that are the product of the rules and regulations of that country that are not the situation here.  Basically we have the most strictly regulated salmon farms in the world.

BC has a completely different environment. 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 08, 2011, 10:47:02 PM
steve u have no idea what i eat, and i can guarantee u that none of the food i eat is produced in altered fish habitat, oh wait a second, i eat halibut and salmon and other species of fish and their habitat has been altered by fish farms ......dont worry they will be on land soon enough.....well, maybe not soon enough, but they WILL be out of the ocean.....holmes*
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 08, 2011, 10:56:07 PM

BC has a completely different environment.  

See it's untrue statements like that that try to dismiss the issue that get me riled! Both Chile and BC are raising masses of salmon in an ocean where the waste, diseases and medication effect the environment they are in. There is no difference in the environment. It's only a matter of time before our environment is negatively impacted the same way it has been impacted in Norway and Chile.

Why not be pro-active and put these farms on land where they belong instead of denying it can't happen here, while waiting for it to happen here?!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 08, 2011, 11:28:40 PM
here's a beauty......holmes*


Deny! Deny! Deny! At least, until you can’t Deny anymore! Spin doctors at work!

Tuesday, November 8, 2011
ISA test results inconclusive

The BC Salmon Farmers are crowing over today’s media conference announcing the results of further testing for the ISA virus in Pacific salmon. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the salmon farming industry’s public relations division – aka DFO Aquaculture Branch – tried their best to sound neutral and unbiased but were clearly pleased to report their findings to date. But not so fast (spin) doctors.

If you listened to the first few minutes of the media conference call there was nothing but good news. According to Dr. Con Kiley, Director of National Aquatic Animal Health with CFIA, there are no confirmed cases of ISA in either wild or farmed salmon in BC, all the samples received were thoroughly tested, all tests were negative and basically, we can all relax. There is no cause for concern.

That would be great news. ISA in the Pacific ocean could have tragic and truly devastating consequences if the disease were to mutate or prove to be virulent. Today’s announcement from the CFIA, DFO and the BC government was very reassuring – up to about the 10 minute mark.

I started getting very worried again when Kiley noted that “these supplementary results must be considered inconclusive because of the poor quality of the samples.” Say what? Inconclusive?

The spin-doctoring started seriously unravelling when a reporter from the Seattle Times asked if Canadian government officials would be willing to share raw samples with US researchers if they wanted to do their own testing (audio credit: www.ecoshock.net). Hmmm – seems our friends to the south are as suspicious of DFO and CFIA’s cosy partnership with the fish farming industry as Canadians are.

Peter King, who heads up the Moncton DFO laboratory that did the re-testing of the samples responded (and I quote): “For the most part these samples are either partially – and I say over the half way mark – or totally, totally degraded. Sharing those samples would not be good science. They are in poor condition, we received them in poor condition and moving them anywhere else is not going to help anybody.” He talks about the storage of the samples and the degradation of RNA, then goes on to say: “That’s why we call things inconclusive – because the degradation is so bad you cannot form an opinion from a test standpoint as to whether or not you are capable or not capable. The fact that they come up negative doesn’t really mean anything because they are so badly degraded.”

The negative test “doesn’t really mean anything”?

CFIA’s Kiley tries to regain control of the spin: “Or that you get a result that’s positive”
King acknowledges “That’s a possibility too – that’s why we have to go to confirmatory testing...”

So given the huge uncertainty, surely our federal agencies are now working hard to get to the bottom of this? If the samples are poor quality, they must have a plan to immediately secure more and better samples? If the results are inconclusive and they can’t categorically rule out the presence of ISA then they’ll be spending sleepless nights putting together a testing program to make certain our wild salmon are not exposed to this disease.

Dr. Kiley advises DFO and CFIA are “assessing current testing levels for ISA in both wild and aquaculture populations in BC” and will “increase surveillance activities as required”. But they are acting quickly, right? Kiley replies there are ideal times of year for tests and based on the species and where they want to test they will decide what will be done and when.
So the spin will be ‘no ISA in BC’ while the reality is the tests are totally inconclusive, ISA might be present or it might not, the salmon farmers continue to do their own sampling and testing (but are ‘sharing’ the results of their in-house fish health audits with the Province) and the Canadian government agencies are going to move at a glacial pace before doing anything because after all – what’s the rush? It’s only our wild salmon and the continued functioning of our Pacific coast ecosystem that’s on the line.

At the end, a reporter introduces herself as Roxanne from the Yukon News and asks if there is further testing done, would it come north and perhaps include the Yukon River? Dr. Kiley replies: “No, we do our investigation in Canadian waters.” Now I’m reassured – Canada’s best are on the job.

Cath Stewart is manager of Living Oceans Society's Salmon Farming Campaign
http://livingoceanssociety.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 09, 2011, 07:11:25 AM

At the end, a reporter introduces herself as Roxanne from the Yukon News and asks if there is further testing done, would it come north and perhaps include the Yukon River? Dr. Kiley replies: “No, we do our investigation in Canadian waters.” Now I’m reassured – Canada’s best are on the job.

Cath Stewart is manager of Living Oceans Society's Salmon Farming Campaign
http://livingoceanssociety.blogspot.com/

Looks like Kiley needs to brush up on his Canadian geography....   Yukon is part of Canada!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 09, 2011, 12:50:56 PM
Look what has happened in other countries Dan, can you give me an answer why it will be different here, no one here has given me an answer yet, maybe it is because they do not have one. :(

First of all (most important) as said before Chile had no salmon stocks to begin with, nothing was wiped out. Norway has not had any wild stocks wiped out either.

What happened on the East coast may indeed (from my view point) have been caused by farms. But you are missing 2 major factors here:

1) The wild stocks were the same as the farmed fish. This meant that diseases could actually spread from wild to farmed and vice versa. It also meant that if any farmed fish escaped, they could actually spawn in the wild and weaken the genetic pool. This is not the case in our waters, where pacific salmon are very immune to Atlantic diseases and can't produce viable offspring with them.

2) Bio security back then was almost non existent. Farms were extremely clustered and were hot spots for disease. Fish were harvested right on site and blood was pumped right into the water. Brood fish were kept close to smolts, etc. Bio security has become incredibly harsh now. There are different management zones where only 1 age class of fish can be raised at a time. No harvest can be done at sites, and if done on a vessel no harvest water can be put back into the ocean without sanitation. Fines are huge and can result in your licence being pulled, so in short no one does it. There hasn't been an outbreak of ISA or other disease since bio security protocols have been raised.

If you are referring to their Cod fishery (and I'm sure this applies to their Atlantics even somewhat as well) that was strictly over fishing that did them in. Cod are a totally different species and inhabit different niches, etc. Farms had nothing to do with their demise, and unless you can provide some type of scientific paper (or anyone else) that is what most people would go off of.

See it's untrue statements like that that try to dismiss the issue that get me riled! Both Chile and BC are raising masses of salmon in an ocean where the waste, diseases and medication effect the environment they are in. There is no difference in the environment. It's only a matter of time before our environment is negatively impacted the same way it has been impacted in Norway and Chile.

Once again, no impact in Norway and especially Chile which had no stocks to begin with, although anti farmers would love you to believe that.

Waste? How is the farmed salmon waste any different than wild salmon waste? They are fed the same stuff and produce the same waste? Even if you argue about the food waste going into the ocean, it was taken out of the ocean to begin with!

Diseases? I don't know of hardly any diseases (if any at all) that can live more than 48 hrs in the water. Once again, diseases effecting Atlantic's hardly ever effect Pacific salmon as they are more hardy and have developed immunities to many of the diseases.

Medication? This really annoys me! Anyone can go online and find the actual amount of antibiotics administered to farmed fish. 2009 it was a whopping 528 g per Metric Tonne! I guess by your standards that might be a lot (enough to pollute the ocean?!)? It would also be significantly less if it weren't for having to treat brood stock fish. The net pen fish receive maybe 10% of that and only in extreme cases where nothing else can be done.

Holmes

The fact that they cannot produce any results shows that levels were low to begin with.
It also brings to question why they did not keep samples properly, when it is mandatory that the CFIA do tests as well.
It all seems fishy to me. Even if low levels were detected to begin with, once again that does not mean that the fish was infected, just means it was carrying it.

Also about the feed.
As said before, there are strict rules on how much can be taken for fish meal. If numbers of food fish are not good, there is no catch allotted. Much of this also goes into dog and cat food, do you own either of those? If you are you are also taking "food" right "out of the mouths" of wild fish. As said before, salmon ranching taking part in China releasing close to a billion fish right into the ocean is causing much more damage than netting out an allotted amount of food fish. I still don't get why no one is in an uproar about the salmon ranching? Less and less wild fish, more and more "enhancement" (which are all taken as food over there) and no one points a finger at that?

Cheers,
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 09, 2011, 01:27:25 PM
Every Day: Gotta give your teachers a lot of credit as you are learning well. The problem is you are learning what the industry is teaching. While PCB's, DDT, Asbestos and many other substances were being used, government and industry deemed that they were safe to use. (Some countries still use them) I'm certain the educators of the day also taught that they were safe....  Unfortunately when the danger to the environment was proven a lot of damage was already done!

Your argument that the farms are safe has no basis other than the industry and government says they are safe. Because of their suspect motives (generating profits/taxes) most of us won't accept the "farms are safe" argument. Hopefully it's not too late before we are proven right!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 09, 2011, 01:32:21 PM
First of all (most important) as said before Chile had no salmon stocks to begin with, nothing was wiped out. Norway has not had any wild stocks wiped out either.

What happened on the East coast may indeed (from my view point) have been caused by farms. But you are missing 2 major factors here:

1) The wild stocks were the same as the farmed fish. This meant that diseases could actually spread from wild to farmed and vice versa. It also meant that if any farmed fish escaped, they could actually spawn in the wild and weaken the genetic pool. This is not the case in our waters, where pacific salmon are very immune to Atlantic diseases and can't produce viable offspring with them.

2) Bio security back then was almost non existent. Farms were extremely clustered and were hot spots for disease. Fish were harvested right on site and blood was pumped right into the water. Brood fish were kept close to smolts, etc. Bio security has become incredibly harsh now. There are different management zones where only 1 age class of fish can be raised at a time. No harvest can be done at sites, and if done on a vessel no harvest water can be put back into the ocean without sanitation. Fines are huge and can result in your licence being pulled, so in short no one does it. There hasn't been an outbreak of ISA or other disease since bio security protocols have been raised.

If you are referring to their Cod fishery (and I'm sure this applies to their Atlantics even somewhat as well) that was strictly over fishing that did them in. Cod are a totally different species and inhabit different niches, etc. Farms had nothing to do with their demise, and unless you can provide some type of scientific paper (or anyone else) that is what most people would go off of.

Once again, no impact in Norway and especially Chile which had no stocks to begin with, although anti farmers would love you to believe that.

Waste? How is the farmed salmon waste any different than wild salmon waste? They are fed the same stuff and produce the same waste? Even if you argue about the food waste going into the ocean, it was taken out of the ocean to begin with!

Diseases? I don't know of hardly any diseases (if any at all) that can live more than 48 hrs in the water. Once again, diseases effecting Atlantic's hardly ever effect Pacific salmon as they are more hardy and have developed immunities to many of the diseases.

Medication? This really annoys me! Anyone can go online and find the actual amount of antibiotics administered to farmed fish. 2009 it was a whopping 528 g per Metric Tonne! I guess by your standards that might be a lot (enough to pollute the ocean?!)? It would also be significantly less if it weren't for having to treat brood stock fish. The net pen fish receive maybe 10% of that and only in extreme cases where nothing else can be done.

Holmes

The fact that they cannot produce any results shows that levels were low to begin with.
It also brings to question why they did not keep samples properly, when it is mandatory that the CFIA do tests as well.
It all seems fishy to me. Even if low levels were detected to begin with, once again that does not mean that the fish was infected, just means it was carrying it.

Also about the feed.
As said before, there are strict rules on how much can be taken for fish meal. If numbers of food fish are not good, there is no catch allotted. Much of this also goes into dog and cat food, do you own either of those? If you are you are also taking "food" right "out of the mouths" of wild fish. As said before, salmon ranching taking part in China releasing close to a billion fish right into the ocean is causing much more damage than netting out an allotted amount of food fish. I still don't get why no one is in an uproar about the salmon ranching? Less and less wild fish, more and more "enhancement" (which are all taken as food over there) and no one points a finger at that?

Cheers,
Dan
Dan,don't believe all the facts the fish farm lobby put out. If you really knew what went on at Cohen, how things are trying to be covered up with some witness being denied a chance to speak as well as what they wanted to present you would be very disappointed. I will relate some info later when I review what was  recently sent to me.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 09, 2011, 02:26:34 PM
Every Day: Gotta give your teachers a lot of credit as you are learning well.
Yup, last I heard he was the top of his class ;)  And it shows with his recent posts. 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 09, 2011, 02:46:39 PM
Dan,don't believe all the facts the fish farm lobby put out. If you really knew what went on at Cohen, how things are trying to be covered up with some witness being denied a chance to speak as well as what they wanted to present you would be very disappointed. I will relate some info later when I review what was  recently sent to me.
I've read virtually every Cohen commission transcript and I just don't see any support for this conspiracy theory stuff in any of it....it wasn't presented in evidence or testimony but Alex Morton did try to spin the testimony on her blog afterwards to suggest it. So that's just Alex's rationalizations of why the data doesn't match her conclusions.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 09, 2011, 02:53:15 PM
While PCB's, DDT, Asbestos and many other substances were being used, government and industry deemed that they were safe to use. (Some countries still use them) I'm certain the educators of the day also taught that they were safe....  Unfortunately when the danger to the environment was proven a lot of damage was already done!
Those came out of the chemical revolution of the 50's when chemistry was going to revolutionize our lives and industry was booming and governments wanted a big piece of the pie and the words "environmental assessment" were unkown. But times have changed so it's not really fair to think that 50's thinking is still driving decisions today.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 09, 2011, 03:13:29 PM
Quote
Dan,don't believe all the facts the fish farm lobby put out. If you really knew what went on at Cohen, how things are trying to be covered up with some witness being denied a chance to speak as well as what they wanted to present you would be very disappointed. I will relate some info later when I review what was  recently sent to me.

Why is it assumed that Dans info comes from a Farm Lobby.

Chris,  You have been asking this question for months and when you finally get an answer you change the topic from facts to cover-ups etc.  What do you think of Dans answer?

IMO
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 09, 2011, 03:21:46 PM
Those came out of the chemical revolution of the 50's when chemistry was going to revolutionize our lives and industry was booming and governments wanted a big piece of the pie and the words "environmental assessment" were unkown. But times have changed so it's not really fair to think that 50's thinking is still driving decisions today.

Don't blame the 50's generation for that! Put the blame on industry and government for the reasons I gave. Suggesting the cause for the devastation created by those chemicals was "50's thinking" is naive. The same dollars driving industry and government in the 50's are driving them today. If it wasn't for a few aware forward thinking people that convinced industry and government that "environmental assessment" was required the carnage would have continued.

Morton has no ties to industry or government, she is the one pushing for "environmental assessment" with respect to the fish farms.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 09, 2011, 05:58:05 PM
Why is it assumed that Dans info comes from a Farm Lobby.

Chris,  You have been asking this question for months and when you finally get an answer you change the topic from facts to cover-ups etc.  What do you think of Dans answer?

IMO
Wait until you get to be closer to your 7th decade. ;D ;D ;D

I will get to it after badminton or tomorrow. :-\
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 09, 2011, 09:03:49 PM
Quote
Wait until you get to be closer to your 7th decade. Grin Grin Grin

I will get to it after badminton or tomorrow. Undecided

ughhh...the last time I played badminton I was 30, 10 years ago. Played a man twice my age and he absolutely whooped my butt.  Over and over and over again.

Do not think there is no undue respect from me, Sir.

I will wait gladly, patiently to get close to my 70's.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 09, 2011, 09:32:04 PM
Don't blame the 50's generation for that! Put the blame on industry and government for the reasons I gave. Suggesting the cause for the devastation created by those chemicals was "50's thinking" is naive. The same dollars driving industry and government in the 50's are driving them today. If it wasn't for a few aware forward thinking people that convinced industry and government that "environmental assessment" was required the carnage would have continued.

Morton has no ties to industry or government, she is the one pushing for "environmental assessment" with respect to the fish farms.
None of those chemicals would be approved in Canada for widespread use today given our environmental regulations that we fought long and hard for. I was very active in the environmental movement in the late 60's and 70's and I know what industry and government attitudes were like then and what they are like now and there is no comparison.

BTW, I really liked the old Alex Morton, the environmentalist, before she started pandering to the media for headlines and throwing around conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories are just a poor mans argument when the facts don't fit your beliefs. You can never disprove a conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 09, 2011, 10:34:08 PM
Defenders of fish farms, does this not make you wonder what is going on, not too transparent is it.

Back in September, it was revealed at the Cohen Commission that Dr. Kristi Miller’s work on salmon leukemia was being directly controlled by the Prime Minister’s Office in Ottawa. In particular, the PMO intervened to ban Miller from responding to media requests in the days leading to the publication of her research in the prestigious journal Science.
At Cohen, we also discovered that DFO had cut off all funding – that’s zero dollars – for Dr. Miller’s critical research on salmon. To our knowledge, the funding still remains cut off to this day.
When the first positive results of ISA were discovered, The Provincial Government made the accusation that the original samples that tested positive had been destroyed. In an ironically self-defeating comment (since it was later confirmed that the samples were fine), Liberal MLA. D. McRae said in the BC Legislature: “Well, we've got another example of spinning media headlines and fear mongering from the opposition.”
Around the same time, Province-of-BC lead veterinarian Dr. Gary Marty was asked by CBC Radio about the multiple cases of jaundiced salmon that Alexandra Morton had found in the Fraser River with heavily diseased livers. With a straight face, he answered that those may have been (wait wait wait) albino fish. What about their diseased livers? Ah yeah, albino fish with a drinking problem, I guess.
Perhaps one of the more disturbing recent incidents. After ISA was discovered, many members of the public such as myself posted the lab results on their blogs, as a public service. The director of the lab that had done the testing, Dr. Fred Kibenge, wrote to salmon activist Don Staniford asking him to remove the lab results from his blog, because “this information was not intended for the public and should not be posted anywhere publicly”. 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 09, 2011, 10:34:22 PM
None of those chemicals would be approved in Canada for widespread use today given our environmental regulations that we fought long and hard for. I was very active in the environmental movement in the late 60's and 70's and I know what industry and government attitudes were like then and what they are like now and there is no comparison.


Of course they wouldn't be approved today...  but the journey to get today included a lot of fighting with and screaming at industry and government before they changed the rules. It's highly unlikely industry or government would have made any changes without being pushed by the environmentalists of the day.

Fast forward to today and we have fish farms.....

The only reason you liked Alex Morton as the environmentalist and don't like her today is because today she is actually making a difference in bringing awareness to the fish farms potential long term harm to the environment if they are allowed to operate as is. I understand you not liking her and attempting to discredit her at every opportunity.....   no one likes to have their livelihood threatened.

I don't imagine the producers of harmful chemicals of the 50's were all that happy with the people that pointed out the problems their products were creating in the environment.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 10, 2011, 09:15:42 AM
Defenders of fish farms, does this not make you wonder what is going on, not too transparent is it.

Back in September, it was revealed at the Cohen Commission that Dr. Kristi Miller’s work on salmon leukemia was being directly controlled by the Prime Minister’s Office in Ottawa. In particular, the PMO intervened to ban Miller from responding to media requests in the days leading to the publication of her research in the prestigious journal Science.
At Cohen, we also discovered that DFO had cut off all funding – that’s zero dollars – for Dr. Miller’s critical research on salmon. To our knowledge, the funding still remains cut off to this day.
Defenders of the truth sir, not fish farms.

That's a perfect example of the problem I have with Alex Morton now. You're quoting from her blog and how she's twisting the Cohen testimony to her purposes. If you read ALL the transcripts, you'd know why the PMO office had a problem with her being interviewed BEFORE she gave her sworn testimony. You'd also know what the status was of all research funding in DFO and in particular the one special funding source she was using. There's no conspiracy, just the every day hurdles of being a public servant in a tight fisted, overly cautious Federal government.

I agree though that the fish farm Vets need some serious educating about wild salmon.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 10, 2011, 09:24:57 AM
The only reason you liked Alex Morton as the environmentalist and don't like her today is because today she is actually making a difference in bringing awareness to the fish farms potential long term harm to the environment if they are allowed to operate as is. I understand you not liking her and attempting to discredit her at every opportunity.....   no one likes to have their livelihood threatened.
Once again your characterizations are off base AF. It's her recent tactics with the virus issue that turned me off. The rest of your comment makes no sense...you have me confused with a fish farmer apparently.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on November 10, 2011, 09:43:52 AM
http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=1254

I remember reading about the affect on SeaTrout from salmon farms years back in Ireland. How it was wiping out some of the best streams. So if someone is getting a red herring lesson on farmed salmon history, they should ask for their money back.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on November 10, 2011, 10:12:22 AM
http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=1254

I remember reading about the affect on SeaTrout from salmon farms years back in Ireland. How it was wiping out some of the best streams. So if someone is getting a red herring lesson on farmed salmon history, they should ask for their money back.

Seriously.  Where do you guys find this diatribe.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 10, 2011, 10:48:12 AM
Seriously.  Where do you guys find this diatribe.

You may know what you were thinking when you wrote your post....   but unless you explain what "diatribe" you are talking about, no one knows what you are referring to.  Of course that's assuming that we care.....  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 10, 2011, 01:44:35 PM
You may know what you were thinking when you wrote your post....   but unless you explain what "diatribe" you are talking about, no one knows what you are referring to.  Of course that's assuming that we care.....  ;D
If you don't care, why are you replying?  I expected a better response from you and the anti's regarding this latest setback to remove salmon farms from BC waters.  So far nothing original or thought provoking.
Don't worry though as I'm sure Ms. Morton isn't done yet; she willl find something (possibly a salmon covered in fungus, or horrors, even dying) to stir the crowds again.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 10, 2011, 02:21:32 PM
heres a simple question, why cant they move them on land?......holmes*
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 10, 2011, 02:24:17 PM
If you don't care, why are you replying?  I expected a better response from you and the anti's regarding this latest setback to remove salmon farms from BC waters.  So far nothing original or thought provoking.
Don't worry though as I'm sure Ms. Morton isn't done yet; she willl find something (possibly a salmon covered in fungus, or horrors, even dying) to stir the crowds again.

I'm comfortable that my post contained more intelligence than the post I replied to.....   ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 10, 2011, 03:05:25 PM
If you don't care, why are you replying?  I expected a better response from you and the anti's regarding this latest setback to remove salmon farms from BC waters.  So far nothing original or thought provoking.
Don't worry though as I'm sure Ms. Morton isn't done yet; she willl find something (possibly a salmon covered in fungus, or horrors, even dying) to stir the crowds again.
:-[ :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on November 10, 2011, 06:41:17 PM
http://www.galwaynews.ie/22466-massive-aran-fish-farm-would-create-500-new-jobs (http://www.galwaynews.ie/22466-massive-aran-fish-farm-would-create-500-new-jobs)

I was referring to the link you provided for us AF, so I was talking to a couple of friends of mine that belong to Niffa, the Northern Ireland Fly Fishing Association, and it seem to them anyways that Salmon netting is a greater concern to them than the fish farms are, as the nets are devistating the runs of Atlantic salmon that are trying to return to their spawning rivers.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 10, 2011, 06:57:43 PM
http://www.galwaynews.ie/22466-massive-aran-fish-farm-would-create-500-new-jobs (http://www.galwaynews.ie/22466-massive-aran-fish-farm-would-create-500-new-jobs)

I was referring to the link you provided for us AF, so I was talking to a couple of friends of mine that belong to Niffa, the Northern Ireland Fly Fishing Association, and it seem to them anyways that Salmon netting is a greater concern to them than the fish farms are, as the nets are devistating the runs of Atlantic salmon that are trying to return to their spawning rivers.

I haven't provided any links in this thread....  perhaps you're mistaking me for StillAqua.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on November 10, 2011, 07:35:01 PM
Sorry my bad it was TB
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 10, 2011, 08:10:03 PM
Sorry my bad it was TB

If you stopped rubbing yourself, I'm sure we could all take you more seriously....   ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on November 10, 2011, 08:27:41 PM
Awwww...didnt know that avatars really mattered. ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 10, 2011, 10:08:30 PM
heres a simple question, why cant they move them on land?......holmes*

Not possible.
Salmon farms only make around 500 000 profit per turnover as it is, with close to $3 million input to get it started.

Moving to land would cost more $ for water pumps, oxygen pumps, not to mention filters for outgoing water.

Catastrophic failure is also much more possible, any problems at all and all your fish will die. These need to be stocked at high densities in order to make any money at all, if a pump dies the oxygen drops fast and all your fish die.

Even if they move them to land, you guys would all still be complaining about the waste water going into the ocean and the antibiotics, not to mention "stealing wild fish food" any ways, so why is the point really?


Lastly for all of you saying my teachers, the people I learn from, are fish farm lobbyists, you are wrong. They teach us both sides of the equation. Nothing I have seen or been taught so far has lead me to believe fish farms are bad. I have been shown facts about wild salmon, and facts about farms. I can't help but reason with the information I'v been given that anything bad is coming of fish farms in BC to this point. Everything I'v been shown is media hype, and one person's interpretation of "an abnormal amount of sea lice" or what "gross sludge is in the aphotic zone of the ocean". I like having my own opinions which are based on facts and being shown scientific papers (or having teachers that were actually granted $ to work on issues like the sea lice). I'v been to enough hatcheries, gathered enough opinions, and read enough on the topic from both sides to have my OWN opinion and not one that is influenced by either fish farm lobbyists or people like Morton.

I am not in any way benefiting from fish farms. In fact I don't intend to ever benefit from one and fully intend to work with wild stocks of fish. I am not trying to slag Morton and call her an idiot. All I am saying is she is much too anxious in jumping the gun, without all the facts needed. She is a very good persuasive writer and creative writer and therefore is able to draw a lot of attention, but I really think she shot herself in the foot on this one, unless she somehow manages to dig up another ISA positive fish somewhere....

Cheers,
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on November 10, 2011, 10:36:43 PM
I don't care how much it costs them to farm salmon. Just do it so you don't cause any other problems. I value our resources. Would hate to see things go progressively downhill, without some sort of check in place. Businesses like fish farmers should have done the math and market a product that fit the bill. If not the should just f off. Others do it no problem.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 11, 2011, 07:16:03 AM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Urgent Action Required to Identify and Contain Spread of Infectious Salmon Anemia" (Salmon Are Sacred, 10th November): http://www.salmonaresacred.org/blog/urgent-action-required-identify-and-contain-spread-infectious-salmon-anemia

 

"Canada’s reputation put at risk needlessly, says Ashfield" (Fish News EU, 10th November): http://www.fishnewseu.com/latest-news/world/7026-canadas-reputation-put-at-risk-needlessly-says-ashfield.html

 

"Delay wanted on fish farms" (The Marlborough Express, 10th November): http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/5940654/Delay-wanted-on-fish-farms

 

"Costs soar in salmon plan" (Stuff NZ, 10th November): http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/5938806/Costs-soar-in-salmon-plan

 

"Shoddy science, not a salmon virus ,the problem" (Daily News, 10th November): http://www.canada.com/Shoddy+science+salmon+virus+problem/5686658/story.html

 

"Ottawa, Victoria say no ISA in BC salmon" (The Tyee, 9th November): http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Environment/2011/11/09/ISA_BC_salmon/

 

"Farm Harm Two" (Terrace Standard, 9th November): http://www.bclocalnews.com/sports/133541403.html

 

"Western Isles fish farm fined over worker's death" (BBC News, 9th November): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-15665113

 

"Scottish salmon farming company fined after worker drowns" (Health & Safety Executive, 9th November): http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2011/coi-sco-10311.htm

 

"'Salmon anemia' scare has PUD on alert" (Wenatchee World, 9th November): http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2011/nov/09/salmon-anemia-scare-has-pud-on-alert/

 

"Salmon inquiry final debate targets farms" (BC Local News, 9th November): http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/133549088.html

 

"New Virus Found in Pacific Salmon" (Watershed Watch, 9th November): http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771089/1d61d8ce4e/1470543365/f46aea8cf1/

 

"Fish flu: Genetics approach may lead to treatment" (Eureka Alert, 9th November): http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-11/nios-ffg110911.php

 

"ISA in Pacific salmon: Just kidding - When it comes to false alarms, the ISA scare is one of the biggest. Who's to blame and why?" (Intrafish, 9th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1260746.ece

 

"CFIA says no confirmed cases of ISA in B.C" (The Courier-Islander, 9th November): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/story.html?id=eafb0538-6ad5-483e-b00b-b2818cd858ad

 

"Canadian government: No ISA in Pacific salmon: Canadian agencies continue to wrap up investigation into detection of ISA in British Columbia" (Intrafish, 9th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1260660.ece

 

"No Confirmed Cases of Infectious Salmon Anaemia in British Columbia" (Canadian Food Inspection Agency, 9th November): http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/corpaffr/newcom/2011/20111109e.shtml

 

"Mitsubishi to purchase Chilean salmon farming company" (FIS, 9th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=9&id=47485&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"New test results on salmon find no infectious anemia" (FIS, 9th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=9&id=47486&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Cooke charges prompt concerns over regulators: Conservation organization calls out Canadian regulators" (Intrafish/Halifax Media Coop, 8th November): http://halifax.mediacoop.ca/fr/newsrelease/8864?mid=525

 

"NZ King Salmon proposal gets EPA support" (FIS, 8th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=8&id=47447&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

 

Including a statement endorsed by wild salmon advocates:

 

The following steps must be taken immediately by DFO (Canada) and British Columbia:

 

1) Test all Atlantic salmon farms for ISAv. 

2) Test all pacific salmon hatcheries; the upcoming brood stock should be sampled at egg-take.

3) Test wild salmon, herring and other fish species for ISAv.

4) Applying the precautionary principle to the ISA virus – the most vulnerable part of the salmon farming industry, ban all imports of Atlantic salmon eggs.

 

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report on the positive samples in chinook and chum – online here

 

The first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast is also available online here

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse": http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 11, 2011, 08:28:31 AM


Usually it is hard to believe most politicans. :-\

Statement from the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada Keith Ashfield and British Columbia Minister of Agriculture Don McRae...
... on New Test Results Indicating That There are no Confirmed Cases of ISA in British Columbia Salmon 

OTTAWA, ONTARIO, Nov 09, 2011 (MARKETWIRE via COMTEX) -- Federal officials from the Canada Food Inspection Agency, along with officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada and British Columbia's Chief Veterinary Officer, provided a technical briefing yesterday on new test results indicating that there are no confirmed cases of Infectious Salmon Anaemia in British Columbia salmon.

The National Reference Laboratory has completed Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) testing, a sensitive but preliminary test, that has shown no presence of ISA in the samples provided; this is the same process that was reportedly used in the original claims of positive test results by individual sources. Officials provided information on the extensive actions underway by the Government of Canada to investigate claims about the presence of the disease, the timeline of test results, and the proper, science-based requirements for testing. Officials also indicated that there will be investigations into the collection, handling, transportation and storage of samples by other sources that led to the original claims.

Minister Ashfield said: "It has been a difficult few weeks for the fishing industry in British Columbia, and across the country, while waiting for these preliminary test results to come back because some have chosen to draw conclusions based on unconfirmed information. This has resulted in British Columbia's fishing industry and Canada's reputation being put at risk needlessly.

"Our government takes the health of our fisheries very seriously. We have taken appropriate and immediate action to follow up on the allegations of the presence of ISA in BC waters. We can now confirm that, preliminary analysis, using proper and internationally recognized procedures, has found that none of the samples has tested positive for ISA. In recent years, over 5000 fresh, properly stored and processed salmon have been tested by the BC government and Fisheries and Oceans Canada and there has never been a confirmed case of ISA in British Columbia salmon. An active, science-based sampling program continues for both farmed and wild salmon."

Minister McRae noted: "It is vitally important that we base our policy decisions on sound science so as to preserve and protect BC's reputation as a reliable supplier of high quality seafood to the world. This is particularly true for the dozens of coastal communities that rely on wild and farmed fisheries to feed their families and maintain their way of life. Reckless allegations based on incomplete science can be devastating to these communities and unfair to the families that make a living from the sea. Since Premier Clark is currently on a trade mission to China, I have personally asked her to reassure our valued trading partners that now as always BC can be relied upon as a supplier of safe, sustainable seafood."

Minister Ashfield continued: "Canadian and international partners can be confident that current practices and procedures to protect our wild and farmed salmon industries from disease are in place and working. I will be communicating directly with concerned parties domestically and internationally over the coming weeks to reassure my counterparts, the fishing industry and consumers that BC salmon is healthy and safe."

Related backgrounder: http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/back-fiche/2011/20111108-eng.htm



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 11, 2011, 09:29:22 AM
At out FVSS meeting last night we were informed a large number of silver coho have been observed dead around the Morris Slough area. I was told today a team is on the ground today collecting samples. Good work guys and gals.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 13, 2011, 10:48:31 PM
well Ever Day, it actually IS possible, take a look at the link......holmes*

http://www.sweetspringsalmon.com/
http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 14, 2011, 07:47:14 AM
There are allot of unanswered questions about sweet spring.

Do they use medication.
Is there water 100% recirculated.
What is there power bill?
Is it truly closed containment.


  I think it is ridiculous that the greenies have zero tolerance for medication, where feed comes from that is used, the use of pigment (calling it dye), crowding of fish... the list goes on and on, but when it come to this farm it all becomes acceptable. 
  Growing fish like that(closed containment) is like getting oil from tar sands.  It requires allot of energy.

The green standard it has been awarded is very questionable.???????

Quote
Eco-farmed Sweetspring and wild-caught Alaska are the only salmon listed as Super Green. No other salmon is considered sustainable by Seafood Watch. (Wild-caught Washington salmon is classified as a “Good Alternative.”)

This statement on it "super green" page pretty much sums up the misinformation campaign source to me.  Very very suspicious.

IMO
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 14, 2011, 08:08:54 AM
aquapaloosa, you have to stop confusing the anti's with facts about closed containment salmon farming :D :D :D

Had to smile about "wild" Alaskan salmon too!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 14, 2011, 08:18:38 AM
  I think it is ridiculous that the greenies have zero tolerance for medication, where feed comes from that is used, the use of pigment (calling it dye), crowding of fish... the list goes on and on, but when it come to this farm it all becomes acceptable. 


Firstly it's not just "greenies" that object to open net farming. You'd be more accurate in saying that anyone that has a bit of common sense and looks at how open net farms operate can see the problems with them. They are polluting an environment that they don't belong in and putting natural wild stocks at risk.

I have no objection to fish farms feeding coloring, medication or whatever they want to these fish, as long as they do it somewhere that doesn't affect the wild fish or their environment. A closed container environment is the only place this can happen.

Now the likely hood that I would ever buy one of these unnaturally raised fish is about 0% and the more the market becomes aware of how these fish are raised, more of them will use their common sense and will stop buying these fish as well......
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 14, 2011, 08:23:36 AM

Had to smile about "wild" Alaskan salmon too!

Call the Alaskan salmon whatever you want, at least they are not polluting the environment like the open net farms are.... At least they are raising them naturally. I wouldn't be at all hesitant in purchased a "wild" Alaskan salmon for my next meal. At least I know it's not full of steriods, medication and food coloring.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 14, 2011, 08:38:14 AM
What can you say to a guy that is so clearly misinformed about the most basic facts on salmon farming/salmon ranching.
I just don't know.

I guess he is "always fishing" and not "always listening". ;D ;)

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 14, 2011, 08:53:05 AM

Lastly for all of you saying my teachers, the people I learn from, are fish farm lobbyists, you are wrong. They teach us both sides of the equation. Nothing I have seen or been taught so far has lead me to believe fish farms are bad. I have been shown facts about wild salmon, and facts about farms. I can't help but reason with the information I'v been given that anything bad is coming of fish farms in BC to this point.

Cheers,
Dan

I'm going to call you on this Dan, even if it is at the risk of bursting the "unbiased" educational system bubble.

Post secondary education is a business. They are there to fill classrooms with tuition paying students. Many of them get financial support from big business. This trend is becoming more prevalent as government funding gets cut back and students have a more difficult time affording the tuition.

Now do you think that the school's aquaculture program would teach anything negative about fish farming, knowing that there is a huge potential demand for employees (tuition paying students) in this field? Would they say anything negative about fish farms, knowing that the government that supports fish farming also provides a large portion of the school's funding?

Of course they wouldn't, just like the marketing department for fish farms isn't going to advertise the negatives about their product.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on November 14, 2011, 09:16:39 AM
I would say that SFU contradicts your last  post AF. 

IMO
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: nickredway on November 14, 2011, 06:33:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAcnDevkTnc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAcnDevkTnc) :)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 14, 2011, 08:26:43 PM
I'm going to call you on this Dan, even if it is at the risk of bursting the "unbiased" educational system bubble.
Post secondary education is a business. They are there to fill classrooms with tuition paying students. Many of them get financial support from big business. This trend is becoming more prevalent as government funding gets cut back and students have a more difficult time affording the tuition.
Now do you think that the school's aquaculture program would teach anything negative about fish farming, knowing that there is a huge potential demand for employees (tuition paying students) in this field? Would they say anything negative about fish farms, knowing that the government that supports fish farming also provides a large portion of the school's funding?
Of course they wouldn't, just like the marketing department for fish farms isn't going to advertise the negatives about their product.
You're confusing the corporate side of post secondary institutes with the academic side. The corporate side does run just like a business, soliciting funds from individuals, corporations and governments, increasing enrollments and tuition fees, and chasing after wealthy foreign students.

But the academic side is completely independent and this is a fundamental part of academic freedom which is enshrined in the university charters and fervently defended in the institutions. Of course individual professors and instructors, like other human beings, can have their personal biases, but to suggest that corporations could buy their way in and influence what teaching and research is conducted in a university is a naive conspiracy theory. From UBC's charter:

"The members of the University enjoy certain rights and privileges essential to the fulfilment of its primary functions: instruction and the pursuit of knowledge. Central among these rights is the freedom, within the law, to pursue what seems to them as fruitful avenues of inquiry, to teach and to learn unhindered by external or non-academic constraints, and to engage in full and unrestricted consideration of any opinion. This freedom extends not only to the regular members of the University, but to all who are invited to participate in its forum. Suppression of this freedom, whether by institutions of the state, the officers of the University, or the actions of private individuals, would prevent the University from carrying out its primary functions. All members of the University must recognize this fundamental principle and must share responsibility for supporting, safeguarding and preserving this central freedom. Behaviour that obstructs free and full discussion, not only of ideas that are safe and accepted, but of those which may be unpopular or even abhorrent, vitally threatens the integrity of the University's forum. Such behaviour cannot be tolerated.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 14, 2011, 08:30:10 PM

But the academic side is completely independent and this is a fundamental part of academic freedom which is enshrined in the university charters and fervently defended in the institutions.

 ;D  ;D   Whatever you say....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 15, 2011, 12:05:05 PM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Scientists On The Trail Of Potential Salmon Killer" (KLCC, 15th November): http://klcc.org/Feature.asp?FeatureID=2881

 

"Paying more for fewer results" (Chilliwack News, 15th November): http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/technology/Paying+more+fewer+results/5711442/story.html

 

"Disgraceful!: A Norwegian documentary showing the pollution from fishmeal and fish oil factories saw different companies react in different ways" (Intrafish, 15th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261222.ece

 

"Stop open-pen salmon farms, group tells Shelburne MLA" (The Chronicle Herald, 14th November): http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/32912-stop-open-pen-salmon-farms-group-tells-shelburne-mla

 

"Dissection Workshop and Q&A on Sampling for ISA Testing" (Salmon Are Sacred, 14th November): http://www.youtube.com/salmonaresacred

 

"Engineering salmon is cause for concern" (Anchorage Daily News, 14th November): http://www.adn.com/2011/11/14/2171152/engineering-salmon-is-cause-for.html

 

"'Craft-raised' salmon hits the market: Grieg launches high-end farmed salmon that uses less fishmeal, is easier on the environment" (Intrafish, 14th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261166.ece

 

"Grieg responds: 'We take lice seriously': The company has not made any attempt to hide lice outbreaks at its farms, says its CEO" (Intrafish, 14th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261086.ece

 

"Christy Clark's Chinese & Indian Takeaway" (Superheroes 4 Salmon, 14th November): http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/christy-clark%E2%80%99s-chinese-indian-takeaway

 

"Infectious Salmon Anemia: the news keeps coming" (Southern Fried Science, 13th November): http://salmon.southernfriedscience.com/?p=294

 

"Tinker, Farmer, Stalker, Spy: The Man Who Loves Farmed Salmon, Jesus & Violent Video Games" (Superheroes 4 Salmon, 13th November): http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/tinker-farmer-stalker-spy-man-who-loves-farmed-salmon-jesus-violent-video-games

 

"Wild about ISA!" (ReLAKSation, 12th November): http://www.callandermcdowell.co.uk/relaks529.html

 

 

Including new videos from Salmon Are Sacred on sampling for ISA testing:

 

Alex on You Tube ISA video.jpg

 

Watch online via: http://www.youtube.com/salmonaresacred

 

 

And on KLCC today from Jim Winton, chief of fish health research at the US Geological Survey in Seattle:

 

"This group of viruses has the ability to adapt to other species and stocks and become much more dangerous so one thing we really need to know is if this virus is present in the West how dangerous is it currently and how dangerous could it become for wild stocks"

 

And from Bruce Stewart, a biologist with the Northwest Indian Fisheries Council:

 

“Could it be a non-virulent form that has been here for years, not causing any problems? That’s definitely a possibility.”

 

Note that the Cohen Commission will convene a two-day hearing in mid-December to hear evidence on ISA – no date has been announced yet.  Details online here.

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast online here

 

Read "Positively Negative - How the CFIA Failed to Defuse ISA in BC".

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: swimmingwiththefishes on November 15, 2011, 10:45:40 PM
Unless you think everything is hunky dory with fish farms and know already more than anybody else ;), like Dave, you may want to check out the event below.

I've learned a ton from many of you, especially Chris, keep up the good work.

Tom

scientists’ think tank will convene at Simon Fraser University on November 30th and December 1st to discuss disease and pathogens in Pacific salmon.

The Centre for Coastal Science and Management at SFU invites you to join a panel of these scientists who will present their findings. They will address the following questions:
• What pathogens & diseases are impacting wild Pacific salmon populations?
• What do we know, what do we not know, & what do we need to know right now?
• What should we consider in terms of interacting stressors, cumulative impacts & diseases?
• How do we manage for uncertainty & the protection of wild salmon?

Date and Location:
December 1, 2011, 7:00 pm
SFU Harbour Centre, Room 1900, 515 West Hastings Street, Vancouver

Reservations:
Reservations are recommended as seating is limited. To reserve a seat, please visit
www.sfu.ca/reserve


More information: www.sfu.ca/cstudies/science

Laurie Wood
Coordinator
Continuing Studies in Science and Environment and
Centre for Coastal Science and Management
Simon Fraser University
8888 University Drive, WMX 1356
Burnaby, BC V5A 1S6
http://www.sfu.ca/cstudies/science

778.782.5466
lauriew@sfu.ca

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 16, 2011, 08:10:31 AM
Unless you think everything is hunky dory with fish farms and know already more than anybody else ;), like Dave, you may want to check out the event below.
Yeah, it's hard to be humble :D :D :D
Will you be attending?  If so, please report back to us as it sounds very interesting.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 16, 2011, 10:05:23 PM
More reading for Dave and the boys, will keeep them busy for a few hours  tomorrow digesting more evidence. ;D ;D ;D

Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Atlantic salmon feedlots" (Legacy, December): http://issuu.com/steelhead-salmon-society/docs/legacy1211

 

"Kowtowing to industry" (The Courier-Islander, 16th November): http://www.canada.com/Kowtowing+industry/5717478/story.html

 

"Government of Canada Helps Put More Seafood on International Menus" (Marketwire, 16th November): http://www.marketwatch.com/story/government-of-canada-helps-put-more-seafood-on-international-menus-2011-11-16

 

"Sealice alert declared in neighborhood 10" (Fish Farming Xpert, 16th November): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93086

 

"SFU didn't do ISA tests, it was veterinary college and results still pending" (The Courier-Islander, 16th November): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/letters/story.html?id=84975c87-fd71-486f-91ae-385b9b9498e6

 

"Canadian officials checking reports of salmon disease in B.C." (Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 16th November): http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/dec11/111201h.asp  

 

"Canadian officials say ‘No Confirmed Cases’ of salmon virus" (Chinook Observer, 15th November): http://www.chinookobserver.com/news/canadian-officials-say-no-confirmed-cases-of-salmon-virus/article_535c3aba-0ff0-11e1-ac82-001cc4c002e0.html

 

"Closed-containment salmon aquaculture under the lens" (iPolitics, 15th November): http://www.ipolitics.ca/2011/11/15/closed-containment-salmon-aquaculture-under-the-lens/

 

"Fish Farm Diseases Pass Genes to Human Diseases" (Fish Farm News & Science, 15th November): http://fishfarmnews.blogspot.com/2011/11/fish-farm-diseases-passed-to-humans-nov.html

 

"Salmon Pens Recycled In Refurbishment Project" (The Fish Site, 15th November): http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/15930/salmon-pens-recycled-in-refurbishment-project

 

"Another concern about aquaculture" (CBC Radio, 14th November): http://www.cbc.ca/fisheriesbroadcast/episodes/2011/11/14/another-concern-about-aquaculture/?mid=52

 

"5 Fish You Should Never Eat - #2 Atlantic salmon" (Yahoo news, 14th November): http://health.yahoo.net/experts/eatthis/5-fish-you-should-throw-back

 

"Genetically-engineered salmon on the dinner table?: AquaBounty CEO downplays criticism, talks up GE fish" (South West Farm Press, 14th November): http://southwestfarmpress.com/livestock/genetically-engineered-salmon-dinner-table

 

"Media watch: ISA goes public" (Seafood Source, 14th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=12915

 

"Grieg debuts ‘craft raised’ salmon" (Seafood Source, 14th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=12918

 

"Pesticide Poisoning of Lobsters Leads to Indictment" (ENews Park Forest, 13th November): http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/science-a-environmental/28778-pesticide-poisoning-of-lobsters-leads-to-indictment.html

 

"GMO Food linked to Toxic Pesticides in Farmed Fish" (The Canadian, 12th November): http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/news/health/2011/11/12/1661.html

 

"Genetics could lead to ISA treatment" (FIS, 11th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=11-2011&day=11&id=47539&l=e&country=0&special=aquaculture&ndb=1&df=0

 

 

Including from the Chinook Observer:

 

"National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Administrator Jane Lubchenco has directed NOAA Fisheries to assemble a report on infectious salmon anemia — due by the end of November — that will outline steps needed on surveillance, research and response, including contingency plans for handling the potential spread of the virus."

 

From today's Courier-Islander:

 

"The weight of evidence that ISA is already in B.C. is beyond reasonable doubt and enough to convict a criminal in a court of law...If corporations really were people then Marine Harvest, Cermaq and Grieg (who together control 92 per cent of B.C.'s salmon farms) would already have been hung, drawn and quartered"

 

And from Ruth Salmon of the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance who received over $1 million today from the Canadian Government:

 

"With this funding, our industry members can continue to deliver the powerful message to our major export markets that Canada is a world leader in the environmentally sustainable production of high quality farmed seafood products."

 

"From salmon and trout to oysters and mussels, Canada's aquaculture is second to none and plays a key role in keeping our economy strong," said Minister Ashfield on behalf of Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz.

 

Note that the Cohen Commission will convene a two-day hearing in mid-December to hear evidence on ISA – no date has been announced yet.  Details online here.

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast online here

 

Read "Positively Negative - How the CFIA Failed to Defuse ISA in BC".

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: nickredway on November 17, 2011, 07:28:19 AM
Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse  :o Sounds like that's an objective article.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 17, 2011, 08:12:36 AM
Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse  :o Sounds like that's an objective article.
Too bad the link won't work- would have been a fun read ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on November 17, 2011, 08:36:16 AM
Works for me:

http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 17, 2011, 01:17:46 PM
Works for me:

http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

Thanks Easywater.  Made my morning :)  Didn't know farmed salmon can get the clap; wonder what they do in those pens, eh?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 17, 2011, 01:31:55 PM
Thanks Easywater.  Made my morning :)  Didn't know farmed salmon can get the clap; wonder what they do in those pens, eh?
Glad I donnot have money invested here then. ;D ;D ;D

See you Saturday at the fishing tackle sale, no fish farm talk allowed. ;D ;D ;D :-\
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 17, 2011, 02:04:19 PM
Glad I donnot have money invested here then. ;D ;D ;D

See you Saturday at the fishing tackle sale, no fish farm talk allowed. ;D ;D ;D :-\
As long as you promise not to wear your "Alexandra Morton for Premier" buttons :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 17, 2011, 04:58:47 PM
As long as you promise not to wear your "Alexandra Morton for Premier" buttons :D
FVSS hat it is then. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 21, 2011, 11:14:16 AM
Salmon industry to recover pre-ISA levels within 3 years
Chile: The local salmon industry expects to recover its production levels prior to the ISA crisis within the next 2-3 years. Besides, this sector would achieve exports of US$ 3,000 million this year according to the president of SalmonChile, José Ramón Gutiérrez (photo).


Christian Pérez

The president of the Association of the Chilean Salmon Industry (SalmonChile), José Ramón Gutiérrez, expects the local salmon industry to recover the production levels it had prior to the ISA crisis between the years 2013 and 2014.

He also considers that the low salmon price these days is a tragic situation and although he had expected this price decline to happen he never anticipated it was going be so soon.

However, according to the financial journal Diario Financiero, Mr Gutiérrez expects prices to rise in March 2012 due to a revival in the salmon demand.



Publisert: 21.11.11 kl 07:00 

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 21, 2011, 04:43:14 PM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Salmon virus reports prompt federal review" (CBC News, 21st November): http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2011/11/21/pei-salmon-virus-federal-review-584.html

 

"Salmon industry to recover pre-ISA levels within 3 years" (Fish Farming Xpert, 21st November): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93136

 

"Researchers find ISA clues: New clues could help design treatment for the deadly salmon virus" (Intrafish, 21st November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261569.ece#

 

"Recall on batch of Bleiker's Oak Smoked Salmon" (Fish Update, 21st November): http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/16596/Recall_on_batch_of_Bleiker_s_Oak_Smoked_Salmon.html

 

"Grave concerns at salmon farm proposal speed" (Marlborough Express, 21st November): http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/6004182/Grave-concerns-at-salmon-farm-proposal-speed

 

"Beauty-spot lochs contaminated by toxic chemicals" (The Sunday Herald, 20th November): http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/beauty-spot-lochs-contaminated-by-toxic-chemicals-1.1135842

 

"Community aquaculture dialogue slated for St. Mary’s Bay" (Responsible Aquaculture, 20th November): http://responsibleaquaculture.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/community-aquaculture-dialogue-slated-for-st-marys-bay/

 

"Scotland’s fish farming: concept to reality" (For Argyll, 20th November): http://forargyll.com/2011/11/scotlands-fish-farming-concept-to-reality/

 

"A dirty industry indeed?" (ReLAKSation, 19th November): http://www.callandermcdowell.co.uk/relaks530.html

 

"Pleading Guilty: "By their deeds shall ye know them"" (The Courier-Islander, 18th November): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/story.html?id=345dc415-53fb-41fb-8dc2-18c06116e485

 

"Marine Harvest has no expansion plans until 2013" (FIS, 18th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&country=0&special=aquaculture&monthyear=&day=&id=47741&ndb=1&df=0

 

"Can we on the North Island help stop mismanagement?" (The Courier-Islander, 18th November): http://www.canada.com/North+Island+help+stop+mismanagement/5730581/story.html  

 

"Urgent Action: Protect Wild Salmon by immediately addressing the ISAv threat!" (Georgia Strait Alliance, 18th November): http://www.georgiastrait.org/urgent-action-message-form.php?urgent=salmon_anemia

 

"Measures to control sea louse" (FIS, 18th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&country=0&special=&monthyear=&day=&id=47766&ndb=1&df=0

 

"International focus on sea lice held in Edinburgh" (Fish News EU, 18th November): http://www.fishnewseu.com/latest-news/scottish/7095-international-focus-on-sea-lice-held-in-edinburgh-.html

 

"Scottish salmon production hits six-year high" (BBC News, 18th November): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15793875

 

"Deep Sea Salmon Farming To Meet Demand" (The Fish Site, 18th November): http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/15948/deep-sea-salmon-farming-to-meet-demand  

 

"Greens fight fish farming bill" (Fish Farming Xpert, 18th November): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93125

 

"Legislation to investigate ISA nears approval" (Seafood Source, 18th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=12964

 

"Is BC an ISA virus suspect area?" (Alexandra Morton, 17th November): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/11/is-bc-and-isa-virus-suspect-area.html

 

"Can wild salmon coexist with farmed?" (Seafood Source, 17th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=12947

 

"Another two fish farm escapes this autumn" (Fish Farming Xpert, 17th November): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93098

 

"The dark side" (Terrace Standard, 17th November): http://www.terracestandard.com/sports/134081443.html

 

"That Salmon Sushi Roll Might Have a Big Hidden Price Tag: View" (Bloomberg/Business Week, 16th November): http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-17/that-salmon-sushi-roll-might-have-a-big-hidden-price-tag-view.html

 

"New findings of the Cohen Commission: Full, free investigation needed" (Lillooet News, 16th November): http://www.lillooetnews.net/article/20111116/LILLOOET0602/311169992/-1/LILLOOET/new-findings-of-the-cohen-commission

 

"Canadian fish farmers get lift from government" (Seafood Source, 16th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=12934

 

"Cooke officials charged by Environment Canada: Officials to appear in court on December 13" (The Coaster, 16th November): http://www.thecoaster.ca/News/2011-11-16/article-2806265/Cooke-officials-charged-by-Environment-Canada/1  

 

"Begich to Meet with AquaBounty Over GM Salmon" (KMXT, 16th November): http://www.kmxt.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3302&Itemid=2

 

"Wild, farm salmon don't mix" (Terrace Standard, 16th November): http://www.terracestandard.com/opinion/letters/133717123.html
 

 

Including from Ray Grigg in The Courier-Islander:

 

"When charges were laid and the evidence was so damning, why did Marine Harvest initially plead innocence? How does such a plea reflect on its attitude to the law, to the marine environment in which it operates its open net-pens, and to its role as a responsible corporate citizen? If Marine Harvest is capable of flagrant violations of the law and of denying obvious guilt, what other regulations is it capable of neglecting, disregarding or bending to its advantage? Does it perceive itself to be a law unto itself, a corporate body that is responsible only to its shareholders but not to the country or environment that host it?"

 

From The Coaster:

 

"To say that Tuesday, November 1 was a bad day for Glenn Cooke and two other key Cooke Aquaculture officials would probably be a definite understatement.  Cooke, the CEO of Cooke Aquaculture; Mike Szemerda, the Vice President of Cooke Aquaculture, and Randal Griffin, Regional Production Manager of Kelly Cove Salmon were each charged, by Environment Canada (EC), with 11 counts for allegedly violating Section 36 (3) of the Fisheries Act"

 

Nell Halse, VP of communications for Cooke Aquaculture, said that the matter has been a dark cloud hanging over Cooke Aquaculture and the entire aquaculture industry for the past two years.

 

“It’s been a very difficult time for the company and the individuals involved because we take a lot of pride in all the good things that have happened over the last couple of years in the environment, especially our third party certification and our eco label.  We have also built up a good reputation in the communities where we operate. So, this is certainly not a good time for us, people are quite devastated by this, but we cooperated fully with the EC investigation over the past two years."

 

From Van Andruss writing in Lillooet News:

 

"Significantly, the Cohen Commission has extended formal session to hear evidence on the anemia virus in wild salmon, scheduling a two-day hearing for mid-December. US scientists have been alerted to initiate their own inquiry, not waiting on a sluggish Canadian government to respond.  As Alexandra Morton says, at least someone needs to be free to look at this!"

 

And from Alexandra Morton writing to the World Organization for Animal Health:

 

"Can you advise on what exact steps we should take to better understand if ISA virus is in BC waters and how we can best protect this region from the type of epizootic that occurred in Chile? I feel there is a valid urgency to address whether preventative measures should be initiated. Reports on the Chilean experience where some people thought ISA virus was present, but it was not confirmed and then became a serious epidemic serve as a warning."

 

 

Note that the Cohen Commission in Canada will convene a two-day hearing in mid-December to hear evidence on ISA – no date has been announced yet (details online here).  And note: "The commission has reopened public submissions until the end of added evidentiary hearings to deal with new information on disease testing. Submission will now close at 5 pm PT on the last date of those added hearings in December 2011": http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/PublicSubmissions.php  

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast online here

 

Read "Positively Negative - How the CFIA Failed to Defuse ISA in BC".

 

For more background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 22, 2011, 07:13:25 AM

 Government agencies failing to protect wild salmon
  By Ruby Berry, Vancouver Sun November 22, 2011   Recent reports of the presence of the deadly ISA virus in B.C. wild salmon seem to have alarmed everyone except those meant to be taking care of the wild salmon.

Rather than taking immediate measures to determine the extent of this threat, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency leaped to discredit the findings and assure international markets that all is well in Canadian waters. Unfortunately, their claim rests on inconclusive evidence and degraded samples.

Instead of launching an emergency investigation into this potential disaster, the federal government has announced a million dollar grant to the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance for international advertising. It appears that the health of B.C. waters, and the wild salmon is not the priority of the federal government after all.

Ruby Berry Georgia Strait Alliance, Nanaimo


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Government+agencies+failing+protect+wild+salmon/5748331/story.html#ixzz1eRndk2KD
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on November 22, 2011, 01:05:05 PM
This is my main concern. You would think that DFO and CFIA would have at least made some token announcment, but instead, their PR handlers get their collective jollies by siding with The Fish Farm industry AND reward them as well. They wonder why they are not trusted?

Its all about being impartial, that's all they have to do to gain our respect, or most of us at least. Industry is just that ,they will try to get away with whatever they can, you cannot blame them for that. As for the virus? Industry should not even have any say. The Government Agencies are the ones who are responsible for investigation and reporting to WE the public their findings in a reasonable and impartial timeframe.

Boils down to trust!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 23, 2011, 05:23:19 AM
Its all about being impartial, that's all they have to do to gain our respect, or most of us at least. Industry is just that ,they will try to get away with whatever they can, you cannot blame them for that. As for the virus? Industry should not even have any say. The Government Agencies are the ones who are responsible for investigation and reporting to WE the public their findings in a reasonable and impartial timeframe.
We just have to let CFIA do their thing. It takes time to do the proper science. They have no vested interest in fish farms and they shut down businesses all the time for food pathogen problems. I would imagine one problem is that there aren't many wild salmon around to sample right now. We'll get an update at the Cohen Commission in December.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 23, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
Salmon virus is not the problem that some claim
  By Mary Ellen Walling, The Daily News November 23, 2011   Re: 'Ottawa failing to act as required on ISA problem' (Your Letters, Nov. 22)

It's unfortunate that Ruby Berry at the Georgia Strait Alliance hasn't updated her information on the work that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency are doing to follow up on two inconclusive tests for ISA in British Columbia widely publicized by Simon Fraser University.

Contrary to what she says, significant follow-up testing has taken place showing that these samples were in fact, negative for ISA. Further testing was done on other samples as well, all proving negative. Some samples collected as part of the follow up investigation were too degraded to be tested - but many were not, and the testing has shown that those initial results were in fact, false.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency, along with the DFO is now, as a result, also reviewing sampling programs to ensure that their monitoring is robust and accurate.

Our farmers are continuing their sampling program as well - a program that has tested nearly 5,000 fish, and found no ISA in British Columbia salmon farms.

Mary Ellen Walling Executive Director B.C. Salmon Farmers Association

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 25, 2011, 12:34:39 PM
Received today.

See http://alexandramorton.typepad.com for my response to the Minister of Fisheries' letter to me this morning regarding the ISA virus

Cohen Inquiry has reopened their website for comments from the public and are reopening on ISA virus Dec 15, 16 http://www.cohencommission.ca
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 25, 2011, 05:30:25 PM
Received today.

See http://alexandramorton.typepad.com for my response to the Minister of Fisheries' letter to me this morning regarding the ISA virus

This is the kind of stuff that turned me off Alex Morton's rhetoric.

So the Norwegian lab says with regard to the additional samples Alex sent them for ISA testing: "Based on my experience with both assays a reasonable answer to this question is that we are not detecting any of the known ISA viruses from Europe (or from eastern North America)."

But Alex interprets that in her reply to the DFO Minister as: "Yesterday I received yet another set of positive ISAv results for salmon of the Fraser River".

No you didn't Alex...the Norwegian lab is saying the test is giving false positives.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 25, 2011, 09:29:06 PM
This is my main concern. You would think that DFO and CFIA would have at least made some token announcment, but instead, their PR handlers get their collective jollies by siding with The Fish Farm industry AND reward them as well. They wonder why they are not trusted?

Its all about being impartial, that's all they have to do to gain our respect, or most of us at least. Industry is just that ,they will try to get away with whatever they can, you cannot blame them for that. As for the virus? Industry should not even have any say. The Government Agencies are the ones who are responsible for investigation and reporting to WE the public their findings in a reasonable and impartial timeframe.

Boils down to trust!
Boils down to trust?  That's amazing.  Well how much trust do you put into people that hold a news conference and announce that ISA is present in BC waters and call for an end to open net pen aquaculture, but admit a month later that they were not surprised by the DFO/CFIA results?  These people present at the announcement go on to say, a month later, that more rigorous protocols are needed and that perhaps the preservation techniques used were not sufficient.  However, these samples were sufficient enough for an announcement back in October.  We later find out that many of the samples yielded inconclusive results because they were too poorly preserved by these “trusted people”.  Lastly, we also find out that Dr. Fred Kibenge, the director of the Atlantic Veterinary College (the one who received the original samples), told Dr. Routledge that the results were not conclusive and that further testing was needed to confirm if ISA was present.  He said that his lab has no control over how a client uses test results once they have been released to them.  Yes, very trustworthy people indeed.

It was the CFIA and DFO that retested the samples – not the aquaculture industry.  These results were posted on the CFIA website and in the media.   Those original samples were also retested in Norway (independently) by Dr. Nylund.  The federal government is now reviewing the whole process which includes the handling and preservation of samples and the testing procedures at AVC and in the DFO lab in Moncton.  That is the responsible thing to do.  On the other side of the coin, you have people that only wish to rush to judgement and are not that concerned with providing you with reliable and defensible information.  Perhaps the people from that announcement at SFU back in October might want to do their own review and sole searching.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 25, 2011, 10:08:58 PM
Boils down to trust?  That's amazing.  Well how much trust do you put into people that hold a news conference and announce that ISA is present in BC waters and call for an end to open net pen aquaculture, but admit a month later that they were not surprised by the DFO/CFIA results?  These people present at the announcement go on to say, a month later, that more rigorous protocols are needed and that perhaps the preservation techniques used were not sufficient.  However, these samples were sufficient enough for an announcement back in October.  We later find out that many of the samples yielded inconclusive results because they were too poorly preserved by these “trusted people”.  Lastly, we also find out that Dr. Fred Kibenge, the director of the Atlantic Veterinary College (the one who received the original samples), told Dr. Routledge that the results were not conclusive and that further testing was needed to confirm if ISA was present.  He said that his lab has no control over how a client uses test results once they have been released to them.  Yes, very trustworthy people indeed.

It was the CFIA and DFO that retested the samples – not the aquaculture industry.  These results were posted on the CFIA website and in the media.   Those original samples were also retested in Norway (independently) by Dr. Nylund.  The federal government is now reviewing the whole process which includes the handling and preservation of samples and the testing procedures at AVC and in the DFO lab in Moncton.  That is the responsible thing to do.  On the other side of the coin, you have people that only wish to rush to judgement and are not that concerned with providing you with reliable and defensible information.  Perhaps the people from that announcement at SFU back in October might want to do their own review and sole searching.


Great job on informing us on how to assess if people are trustworthy......   However the point you forgot to mention is how the same folks that are are saying that ISA doesn't exist, are the same people that are associated with a government and an industry that is determined to expand fish farming.

Things like sea lice, ISA, pollution and other potential harms to wild salmon are a reality and because they are either difficult or impossible to control, the next best tact is to explain them away.  In their enthusiasm to convince the public that there isn't a problem, could they perhaps be withholding some information, or misrepresenting facts??   :o

Many of us believe a better way to measure the trustworthiness of someone is to first evaluate their primary objective in life. DFO/government and the fish farming industry want to expand fish farming....   Alexandra Morton only wants to ensure the survival of the wild salmon.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on November 25, 2011, 10:23:44 PM
Received today.

See http://alexandramorton.typepad.com for my response to the Minister of Fisheries' letter to me this morning regarding the ISA virus

Cohen Inquiry has reopened their website for comments from the public and are reopening on ISA virus Dec 15, 16 http://www.cohencommission.ca



I hear Ms Morton is a shoe in for this years Joseph Goebbels Award for constructive journalism.  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 26, 2011, 07:53:12 AM
......   However the point you forgot to mention is how the same folks that are are saying that ISA doesn't exist, are the same people that are associated with a government and an industry that is determined to expand fish farming. ....... In their enthusiasm to convince the public that there isn't a problem, could they perhaps be withholding some information, or misrepresenting facts??  
Can't argue with a conspiracy theory......can't disprove it either.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 26, 2011, 01:39:37 PM
Someone please bring me up to speed as to which conspiracy theory we are discussing now.  Sorry, there have been so many I lose track ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 29, 2011, 02:57:07 PM
Rafe and Damien talk about fish farms and wild salmon.

http://thecanadian.org/k2-video/item/976-rafe-damien-evotv-part-2
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 29, 2011, 05:53:49 PM
Someone please bring me up to speed as to which conspiracy theory we are discussing now.  Sorry, there have been so many I lose track ;D

Im lost too  ;D  ::)
It'll all subside and disappear soon enough... only until they find something else they think is wrong though...
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 29, 2011, 06:00:21 PM
Im lost too  ;D  ::)
It'll all subside and disappear soon enough... only until they find something else they think is wrong though...

..... or until the wild salmon are all gone.  >:(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 29, 2011, 06:41:42 PM
..... or until the wild salmon are all gone.  >:(
alwaysfishin, do you honestly believe salmon farms raising Atlantic's will cause the extinction of Pacific salmon in BC ??
How many of Alex's blogs do you question, if any?
Not calling you out ... just asking as I want to try to understand your 'anti salmon aquaculture in BC' position.
I've spent a lot of time researching this subject, as I'm sure have you; so far I don't see any correlation between declining wild salmonid populations in BC and the salmon aquaculture industry.
Have you?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 29, 2011, 07:09:29 PM
Fish farms are just another of a long list of troubles our wild salmon stocks have been and are now facing. As in the past governments have not listened to the warnings from people that really care about preserving our fish for the future.

If more people had worked with Alex and others on her team like I have for the last couple of years they certainly would not say what they do.

She certainly would not been awarded a honorary degree from SFU for her work if it was not respected by many. http://youtu.be/tK6byowg93M
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 29, 2011, 09:36:54 PM
alwaysfishin, do you honestly believe salmon farms raising Atlantic's will cause the extinction of Pacific salmon in BC ??
How many of Alex's blogs do you question, if any?
Not calling you out ... just asking as I want to try to understand your 'anti salmon aquaculture in BC' position.
I've spent a lot of time researching this subject, as I'm sure have you; so far I don't see any correlation between declining wild salmonid populations in BC and the salmon aquaculture industry.
Have you?

Here's the problem Dave. No one knows what effect the salmon farms are having on the wild salmon. The reason no one knows is because the same people that are given the responsibility to protect wild salmon are the same people that are given the responsibility of building the open net fish farming business. The fear and suspicion is that DFO is "overlooking" the damage the fish farms bring to the environment in their efforts to expand this economic opportunity.

I'd be very happy to some day say "you were right about fish farms and I was wrong". Just because we don't see any correlation "so far" doesn't mean anything. I believe we only have one shot at getting this right! In the interim I'm not comfortable with putting my head in the sand and pretending the farms are harmless. 

By the way feel free to call me out.....  that's what a discussion forum is about.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 29, 2011, 09:38:56 PM
She certainly would not been awarded a honorary degree from SFU for her work if it was not respected by many. http://youtu.be/tK6byowg93M

That school is quite known to be "anti fish farming" so it doesn't surprise me that they would give it to her.
You don't need to be respected "by many" to get a honorary degree, just need to know people, and have friends within the university.
We were given examples of people given honorary degrees (even some by our school), and to be honest, if you've done something for the school or have connections within (such as she has with Rick Routledge that first off published the whole ISA thing) then you can get one. You don't need to have any training in that field at all.

By the way, since we are on the education thing and credibility... funny thing is,  Rick Routledge isn't even a scientist (in means of talking about biology, salmon, etc), his field of study is statistics and making models. Unfortunately, without proper science to back up models, they don't work. Another guy who was also a mathematician, named Krkosek, published a paper a few years back (2007) about pink salmon on the verge of extinction with Morton, and generated math models saying 80% of wild pink salmon were killed by sea lice from farms, and that 99% of the run would be gone within 2 cycles (4 years from then, which would be 2011). Truth was it was shoddy science that they were basing these numbers on (poor holding conditions of the fish, capturing weak fish in the wild along the surface, etc), and he lost a lot of credibility by means of that, but no one ever talks about it any more. When DFO was granted with the data used to compile that report, they found that the study left out much information that went against their hypothesis, up to 90% of the information was left out of the generation used to make the models! Looks like they were totally right about pinks being extinct by this year  ;D

Cheers,
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 29, 2011, 09:42:12 PM
The reason no one knows is because the same people that are given the responsibility to protect wild salmon are the same people that are given the responsibility of building the open net fish farming business.

As far as I know... and maybe Dave can correct me if I'm wrong...

Until very recently, DFO was provincial and fish farms were run by federal. They has nothing to do with each other, which is now why everything has switched to federal, resulting in all the cuts in officers, cuts in funding for steelhead, cuts in everything.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 29, 2011, 10:24:45 PM
As far as I know... and maybe Dave can correct me if I'm wrong...

Until very recently, DFO was provincial and fish farms were run by federal. They has nothing to do with each other, which is now why everything has switched to federal, resulting in all the cuts in officers, cuts in funding for steelhead, cuts in everything.

I'll correct you, but if Dave wants to he can confirm.....  :D

DFO has always been a federal department. Fish farms expansion was a joint responsibility with the BC provincial government from the beginning. However as a result of Morton pointing out that the oceans are a federal responsibility (like they didn't already know that), and taking it to court, the province turned over all responsibility for fish farms to DFO. Of course the province benefits as a result of the corporate and payroll taxes they collect from fish farm employees.

By the way DFO is the federal department that was also responsible for managing the east coast cod fish into extinction.....  I don't want to see them manage the west coast wild salmon in the same way!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 30, 2011, 05:58:58 AM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Deadly virus found in wild Pacific salmon: Killer virus which spreads like wildfire is causing concern among US scientists and fishermen" (Al Jazeera, 28th November): http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2011/11/201111280525478433.html

 

"Chile antibiotics usage drops, but levels remain high: Country used 143 metric tons of antibiotics in 2010 -- an average of 0.34 kilo per ton of salmon" (Intrafish, 28th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261787.ece

 

"GE salmon approval creates growing list of 'what if' scenarios" (Western Farm Press, 28th November): http://westernfarmpress.com/government/ge-salmon-approval-creates-growing-list-what-if-scenarios

 

"Jumping salmon: A cure for sea lice?" (Seafood Source, 28th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=13036

 

"Salmon farmers greatly reduce wild fish bycatch" (FIS, 28th November): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=28&id=47949&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Anglers condemn cash deal with fish farmers" (Scotland on Sunday, 27th November): http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/scotland/anglers_condemn_cash_deal_with_fish_farmers_1_1987314

 

"U.S. diners still wary of farmed fish?" (Seafood Source, 27th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=13029

 

"Simple evidence is that fish farms cause harm" (The Daily News, 26th November): http://www.canada.com/Simple+evidence+that+fish+farms+cause+harm/5771977/story.html

 

"ISA testing must be transparent, scientific" (The Daily News, 26th November): http://www.canada.com/testing+must+transparent+scientific/5771978/story.html

 

"Ewan Kennedy: The impacts of fish farming" (For Argyll, 26th November): http://forargyll.com/2011/11/ewan-kennedy-the-impacts-of-fish-farming/

 

"Council work to expedite setting up of fish farms" (Waikato Times, 26th November): http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/6039859/Council-work-to-expedite-setting-up-of-fish-farms

 

"Salmon analysts: Worse still to come for farmers" (Intrafish, 25th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261756.ece

 

"Atlantic salmon debacle being repeated in the North Pacific" (Anchorage Daily News, 25th November): http://www.adn.com/2011/11/25/2189137/atlantic-salmon-debacle-being.html

 

"Maggots Nurtured For Protein Feed Alternative" (The Fish Site, 25th November): http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/15983/maggots-nurtured-for-protein-feed-alternative

 

"An argument of biblical proportions" (The Courier-Islander, 25th November): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/opinion/story.html?id=4e4ea5a9-feb8-4e97-8b31-1c102262b6ad

 

"Salmon face worse threat than ISA" (North Island Gazette, 25th November): http://www.northislandgazette.com/opinion/letters/134406078.html
 

"Canadian Aquaculture Association elects new slate of officers" (Fish Farming Xpert, 24th November): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93176

 

"Case Watch: Cohen Commission to have further hearings on new Infectious Salmon Anemia virus findings" (Suite 210, 22nd November): http://www.ngariss.com/blog/2011/11/22/case-watch-cohen-commission-to-have-further-hearings-on-new-infectious-salmon-anemia-virus-findings/

 

 

Including from Derek Spragg writing in The Daily News:

 

"Ms. Walling, I have just finished reading a book entitled, Merchants of Doubt - How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming. You fit right in. I am currently reading Silent Spring, again, you fit right in and so does your fish-farming industry."

 

From Liz Fox writing in The Daily News:

 

"Cohen inquiry evidence invites suspicion of the salmon farming lobby. Standards for the importation of Atlantic salmon eggs were relaxed in 2004, ISA is apparently is not on the egg import forms or a reportable disease by salmon farms, likely because ISA is so prevalent in Atlantic Salmon that no-one can give a disease free declaration. ISA-like lesions found by a salmon farm veterinarian were apparently never reported."

 

 

Note that on 15th & 16th December there will be an ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission – details online here (more background here).   

 

 

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast - online here

 

Read the Norwegian laboratory report on the 6th and 7th positive tests for ISA in Fraser River coho and sockeye – online here

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia"

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 30, 2011, 06:17:03 AM
Salmon virus is not the problem that some claim
  By Mary Ellen Walling, The Daily News November 23, 2011   Re: 'Ottawa failing to act as required on ISA problem' (Your Letters, Nov. 22)

It's unfortunate that Ruby Berry at the Georgia Strait Alliance hasn't updated her information on the work that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency are doing to follow up on two inconclusive tests for ISA in British Columbia widely publicized by Simon Fraser University.

Contrary to what she says, significant follow-up testing has taken place showing that these samples were in fact, negative for ISA. Further testing was done on other samples as well, all proving negative. Some samples collected as part of the follow up investigation were too degraded to be tested - but many were not, and the testing has shown that those initial results were in fact, false.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency, along with the DFO is now, as a result, also reviewing sampling programs to ensure that their monitoring is robust and accurate.

Our farmers are continuing their sampling program as well - a program that has tested nearly 5,000 fish, and found no ISA in British Columbia salmon farms.

Mary Ellen Walling Executive Director B.C. Salmon Farmers Association


Simple evidence is that fish farms cause harm
  By Derek Spragg, The Daily News November 26, 2011   Re: 'Salmon virus is not the problem that some claim' (Daily News, Nov. 23)

I am responding to the letter from Mary-Ellen Walling.

Ms. Walling, I have just finished reading a book entitled, Merchants of Doubt - How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming. You fit right in. I am currently reading Silent Spring, again, you fit right in and so does your fish-farming industry.

I am not a fisherman, biologist or scientist but I can read. I have been following the wild versus farmed debate for more than 10 years now and have spent some days at the Cohen Commission as well.

Because I am an ordinary Joe and not one of the so-called "experts," I have to rely on anecdotal evidence. The evidence I see is simple. Anywhere (in the world) fish-farms are put in the ocean the wild fish suffer. When the farms are removed, wild fish return.

Sadly you do the world a great disservice with your continual support for this industry - which, incidentally, cries out to be put on land. But at the moment all I see is money at any cost and profit over people.

Derek Spragg

Vancouver

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 30, 2011, 11:22:03 AM
The 2 D's please check this out. ;D ;D ;D

http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/canadian-cover-infectious-salmon-virus-leaked-report-reveals-over-100-positive-isa-cases-farmed
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 30, 2011, 12:17:40 PM
As said no one knows much about any virus'. New ones are always being discovered. This could be a case, as no salmon tested from what I have read were showing any signs of symptoms of ISA. One asymptomatic strain has already been discovered, why must this be "the deadly European one brought by farmed salmon" and not a new species that has always been native to BC and was never tested for because it shows no symptoms and there has never been a need (until someone was trying to pin something on farms).

“These results lead us to conclude that an asymptomatic form of ISA occurs among some species of wild Pacific salmon in the north Pacific.”
Right out of the paper.

Who is to say that our pacific salmon haven't always had a strain of ISA that they have become adapted to, one that is asymptomatic. Why is it automatically assumed that the farmed salmon brought it over? If it was the European strain, it most definitely should have killed those farmed Atlantic's, but it didn't making me believe it isn't the same strain and probably wasn't brought over by them.

What's even more interesting is the fact all 64 Cultus Sockeye were infected. I wonder if anyone has ever tested for ISA within the lake, possibly for a new strain native to here (Maybe something to look into). It would make sense if all the fish are infected, kind of like a biological marker (maybe test other fish spp in the lake as well). It also seems to me that they must be resilient to it, as stocks have started to come back rather than decline.

Personally, there is way too much to worry about already in this world. I'm not gonna rip my hair out over this one like so many people are, when there is still no solid evidence and no confirmed symptomatic reports.

Cheers,
Dan
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: holmes on November 30, 2011, 03:06:58 PM
so yer gonna wait till something goes wrong to rip your hair out?, when there are no fish? i would rather have no hair now and have fish in the future personally... ;) ;)..holmes*
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on November 30, 2011, 03:45:06 PM
Very interesting indeed.  Dollars to doughnuts this story will unfold a bit over the next little while.  ED, I like your thoughts on Cultus sockeye.   If this is real (I respect Simon Jones way too much to buy this, as currently presented) and was data collected in 2004 it would have been me doing the viral analysis sampling from these captive brood fish but we were testing for IHNV, not ISAV.
Guaranteed, if this reported strain of ISAV was a form lethal to onchorhynchus species, the Cultus sockeye hatchery program and probably a few other salmon hatcheries nearby would have ended that day.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on November 30, 2011, 07:46:43 PM
After reading the so called "leaked" report and Jones and Kibenge's comments, and what the Norwegian Nyland said about the samples he looked at, it appears two different labs could get two different results using the RT-PCR tests on the same samples. Sounds like they need to figure out exactly what it is all these labs think they are measuring!

It would be interesting if they found out that non-disease causing ISA is natural to Pacific salmon and other non-salmon species in our waters that could act as a natural reservoir for infecting farmed Atlantics with ISA strains. That would make all salmon farming too risky on our coast because the wild fish could infect and wipe out the Atlantic salmon industry if a disease forming strain subsequently evolved in the fish farms from a wild salmon ISA virus. Perhaps the wild salmon will take matters into their own fins!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on November 30, 2011, 08:26:23 PM
All your speculation about ISA is a red herring.......   the real story here is in the headline of the report Chris posted ! "Canadian Cover-Up on Infectious Salmon Virus - Leaked report reveals over 100 positive ISA cases in farmed and wild salmon"

Obviously ISA has been present for a while. The denials by DFO and the fish farms is criminal, when they obviously were aware of these tests!

The fact is the same people that have been given the responsibility to protect wild salmon are the same people that are responsible for building the open net fish farming business   .......and we are supposed to trust them to look after the wild salmon??
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on November 30, 2011, 09:34:49 PM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 
"Deadly Salmon-Virus Tests Kept Secret for Years by Canada, Leaked Documents Say" (Seattle Weekly, 30th November): http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/11/deadly_salmon_virus_tests_kept.php

 

"Cantwell irked by unpublished salmon virus study" (The Associated Press/Seattle Times, 30th November): http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016895088_apwasalmonvirus.html

 

"Canada kept detection of salmon virus secret" (The Seattle Times/Boston Herald/Miami Herald/Sacramento Bee/The Olympian/Vancouver Sun, 30th November): http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016890291_salmonvirus30m.html

 

"Canadian scientists spar over presence of salmon virus off B.C. coast" (The Canadian Free Press/Global News/CBC/Brandon Sun/Winnipeg Free Press, 30th November): http://www.globalnews.ca/canadian+scientists+spar+over+presence+of+salmon+virus+off+bc+coast/6442532112/story.html

 

"A 'smoking salmon' report: Was deadly fish virus detected years ago?" (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 29th November): http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/A-smoking-salmon-report-Was-deadly-fish-virus-2309866.php

 

"Fish farms fined for pesticide compliance violations" (The Chronicle Herald, 29th November): http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/37708-fish-farms-fined-pesticide-compliance-violations

 

"700,000 salmon may be on the run" (Aftenposten, 29th November): http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/700000-laks-kan-vre-p-rmmen-6709912.html

 

"Hundreds of thousands of salmon may be on the run" (NRK, 29th November): http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_trondelag/1.7895984?mid=53

 

"How to stop sea lice? Make salmon jump" (Futurity, 29th November): http://www.futurity.org/science-technology/how-to-stop-sea-lice-make-salmon-jump/

 

"China's first salmon farm could affect market for Alaska seafood" (Alaska Dispatch, 29th November): http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/chinas-first-salmon-farm-could-affect-market-alaska-seafood

 

"AgriMarine on track for growth" (Intrafish, 29th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261943.ece

 

"A salmon revolution?: Craft-raised salmon makes believers out of California distributor and chefs" (Intrafish, 29th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1261944.ece

 

"Fish farms cut workforce: Marine Harvest cites global meat glut for Campbell River cutbacks" (The Times Colonist, 28th November): http://www.timescolonist.com/business/Fish+farms+workforce/5780562/story.html

 

 

Note that on 15th & 16th December there will be an ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission – details online here (more background here).   

 

 

Read the leaked Canadian Government report detailing over 100 positive tests for ISA in farmed Atlantic and wild Pacific salmon – online via 'Fishyleaks'

 

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast - online here

 

Read the Norwegian laboratory report on the 6th and 7th positive tests for ISA in Fraser River coho and sockeye – online here

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia"

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on November 30, 2011, 11:15:07 PM
All your speculation about ISA is a red herring.......   the real story here is in the headline of the report Chris posted ! "Canadian Cover-Up on Infectious Salmon Virus - Leaked report reveals over 100 positive ISA cases in farmed and wild salmon"

Obviously ISA has been present for a while. The denials by DFO and the fish farms is criminal, when they obviously were aware of these tests!

The fact is the same people that have been given the responsibility to protect wild salmon are the same people that are responsible for building the open net fish farming business   .......and we are supposed to trust them to look after the wild salmon??

Did you even read my comment? And the quote I took right out of the paper? Go back and look....
Truth is, it was found to be asymptomatic, so they were protecting wild fish AND farmed fish because they knew people like you would over react.

Since Dave did the tests I guess he is all part of this huge cover up too  :P
Can I shake your hand sir? Maybe go Steelheading in December with you  :P

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 01, 2011, 04:58:01 AM
I don't see any "cover-up" in the report and the email exchange attached to it. They are debating whether or not a draft manuscript on an ISA surveillance study could be submitted to a scientific journal for publication, which carries a very high scientific standard for peer review and acceptance. If an independent lab couldn't confirm the RT-PCR lab results or if they can't explain the discrepancy (or if they ignore the discrepancy) they shouldn't submit it to the journal for peer review and publication (it would probably be rejected). That's the correct scientific method.

Harper's office isn't doing DFO any favours by gagging their scientists from talking freely and openly debating the science behind all the fish farm issues. It all just gets spun out of shape by the media and special interests. Guess we'll have to wait for the Cohen hearings and cross examinations.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: buck on December 01, 2011, 03:21:57 PM
 StillAqua

            Don't believe everything that comes out of the Cohen hearings. Lots of politics and fancy lawyers who can manipulate data to their liking. As you can see we can't trust DFO or the federal government.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 01, 2011, 04:25:05 PM
All your speculation about ISA is a red herring.......   the real story here is in the headline of the report Chris posted ! "Canadian Cover-Up on Infectious Salmon Virus - Leaked report reveals over 100 positive ISA cases in farmed and wild salmon"

Obviously ISA has been present for a while. The denials by DFO and the fish farms is criminal, when they obviously were aware of these tests!

The fact is the same people that have been given the responsibility to protect wild salmon are the same people that are responsible for building the open net fish farming business   .......and we are supposed to trust them to look after the wild salmon??


Have you read the report and the emails regarding it's submittal for possible publication? Or are you just relying on a Seattle reporter's version of the version of the story he was given? You can find the manuscript at http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/DFO%20draft%20mamuscript_2004%281%29.pdf. (http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/DFO%20draft%20mamuscript_2004%281%29.pdf.). Pay particular attention to Dr. Simon Jones' email to Molly Kibenge. It specifies the criteria by which ISA is officially recognized and you will note from both the comments and the report, that those conditions were not met. With that being the case, what exactly is being concealed?

There are not 100 positive cases of ISA in farmed and wild salmon in BC. There are no cases of ISA and have not ever been any cases of confirmed ISA in the province. ISA is a disease, not a virus and it has never been present. There is a possibility that a virus that is a precursor to the virus which causes ISA is present, but that can't be confirmed because the virus could not be cultured in any of the purported cases. The accusations by the anti-farm lobby are deliberate misinformation intended to wind up uninformed people and conceal the scientific reality. It is not the DFO that can't be trusted. It is the DFO that works with proven facts and science.

You have Morton to thank for the responsibility for farms being placed with the DFO. If the DFO are so untrustworthy, why did Morton push so hard to put it in their hands. Perhaps you should ask her why she did and when you do, would you please enlighten us. Perhaps Chris might do this for us seeing as he is plugged into that network.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 01, 2011, 04:41:38 PM
Welcome to FWR absolon ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 01, 2011, 05:10:08 PM
Welcome to FWR absolon ;)
Oh no, not another fish farm advocate to deal with. ;D ;D ;D

Does he work for FOC too?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 01, 2011, 05:17:38 PM
Don't believe everything that comes out of the Cohen hearings. Lots of politics and fancy lawyers who can manipulate data to their liking. As you can see we can't trust DFO or the federal government.
So we should reject sworn and cross examined testimony from many witnesses before a Judicial Judge and instead believe an anonymous blogger? OMG  :o :o
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 01, 2011, 05:26:37 PM
Some more reading for our newest member and the others to pick apart. ;D ;D ;D

Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Pacific Salmon Think Tank" (Wilderness Committee, 1st December): http://www.wildernesscommittee.org/event/pacific_salmon_think_tank

 

"Alliance: Aquaculture pesticides threaten wild fisheries" (The Chronicle Herald, 1st December): http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/38496-alliance-aquaculture-pesticides-threaten-wild-fisheries

 

"Leaked: Nearly decade-old positive tests for salmon virus" (Alaska Dispatch, 1st December): http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/leaked-nearly-decade-old-positive-tests-salmon-virus

 

"Canada covers up the presence of salmon virus on the West coast" (Alaska Native News, 1st December): http://www.alaska-native-news.com/article/State_News/State_News/Canada_Covers_Up_the_Presence_of_Salmon_Virus_on_the_West_Coast/23786

 

"Research finding ISA a decade ago was 'covered up'" (FIS, 1st December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=1&id=48096&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Salmongate phase two" (Salmon Warriors, 30th November): http://salmonwarriors.blogspot.com/2011/11/salmongate-phase-two-covering-up-cover.html

 

"Canadian government still working to legalize toxic pesticide use in salmon farming" (Farmed & Dangerous, 30th November): http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/newsletter/2011/11/3785/#pathogens

 

"Report indicates seven-year coverup of Infectious Salmon Anemia in BC salmon" (The Tyee, 30th November): http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Environment/2011/11/30/infectious_salmon_anemia/

 

"BC Cover-up Questions the Dual Mandate of U.S. and Canadian Salmon Management" (Fly Rod & Reel Online, 30th November): http://www.flyrodreel.com/blogs/tedwilliams/2011/november/questions-salmon-management

 

"A Secret About Salmon Virus" (Southern Fried Science, 30th November): http://salmon.southernfriedscience.com/?p=301

                                                           

"U.S. senator slams Canadian officials over lack of communication on salmon virus" (Global News/The Canadian Press/Toronto Star, 30th November): http://www.globaltoronto.com/canada/us+senator+slams+canadian+officials+over+lack+of+communication+on+salmon+virus/6442532381/story.html

 

"U.S.: Canada hid salmon virus for 10 years" (United Press International, 30th November): http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/11/30/US-Canada-hid-salmon-virus-for-10-years/UPI-92651322680349/

 

"Did ISA exist off B.C. coast as early as 2002?" (Seafood Source, 30th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=13082

 

"Salmon Virus Controversy: For 2nd time, salmon virus information withheld in Canada" (NPR/Associated Press/KPLU, 30th November): http://www.kplu.org/post/2nd-time-salmon-virus-information-withheld-canada

 

"Salmon Virus Cover Up? Blame Canada!" (The Sun Break, 30th November): http://thesunbreak.com/2011/11/30/salmon-virus-cover-up-blame-canada/

 

"More Reports Of ISA In Wild And Farmed Salmon Uncovered" (OPB News, 30th November): http://news.opb.org//article/more-reports-isa-wild-and-farmed-salmon-uncovered/

 

"Scientists at odds over B.C. coast salmon virus" (CBC News, 30th November): http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/11/30/bc-scientists-salmon-virus-paper.html

 

"Risk of Atlantic salmon colonization in B.C." (Mainstream Canada, 30th November): http://www.mainstreamcanada.com/risk-atlantic-salmon-colonization-bc

 

"More louse trouble for Eastern fish farmer" (Fish Farming Xpert, 30th November): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93225

 

"Scottish salmon firm profits sink" (BBC News, 30th November): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15963958

 

"Layoffs hopefully temporary say Marine Harvest reps" (The Courier-Islander, 30th November): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/story.html?id=537cd1f1-9b85-4bb2-8f75-2026ecde7a39

 

"Fish health manual launched for Irish salmonid farming industry" (Fish News EU, 30th November): http://www.fishnewseu.com/latest-news/world/7173-fish-health-manual-launched-for-irish-salmonid-farming-industry.html

 

"Aquaculture luncheon packed" (The Courier-Islander, 30th November): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/story.html?id=1b38f00d-4ad0-49d2-8784-c46d9bbe87c4 

 

"True colors are green" (The Courier-Islander, 30th November): http://www.canada.com/True+colors+green/5788597/story.html

 

"Eviction post cards to be delivered to salmon farming companies" (Farmed & Dangerous, 30th November): http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/newsletter/2011/11/3785/#postcards

 

"Marine Harvest cuts 60 jobs in Canada" (Seafood Source, 29th November): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=13076

 

 

Including from today's Alaska Native News:

 

"If it weren't for the October scare involving the Salmon Virus, the world would probably never known about the results of work done a decade earlier on the subject. It was the October revelation that the Atlantic Salmon virus had jumped oceans to the Pacific. It was then that we found out that that news is about 10 years too late...... So, why would the Canadian government cover up the fact that there was a paper on the subject of the Salmon virus in the Pacific? The main reason would be that if the presence of the virus was confirmed in the West Coast waters, the Canadian government would have no choice to report that presence to the World Organization for Animal Health. Reporting this information would be devastating to Canada's Aquaculture industry."

 

From today's Alaska Dispatch (quoting The Seattle Times):

 

"We had no knowledge of any of this," said Jim Winton, a top fish virologist at the U.S. Geological Survey in Seattle, who reviewed the researcher's findings this week. "No one ever revealed that there was a publication that was ready to go to a journal or that the data were as compelling as they appear to be. This is puzzling and very frustrating. It's unfortunate that this information was not available sooner. This should have been followed up years ago."

                                                                                 

Ted Meyers, Alaska's chief fish pathologist, agreed. "If it were my lab," he said, "we would have looked a lot more thoroughly before we let 10 years pass. I have great respect for the scientists at Fisheries and Oceans, but I think sometimes the politicians get in the way."

 

And from Ivan Doumenc writing in 'Salmongate phase two':

 

"The only way that our public agencies can now sustain their broken defense system that "there is no ISA in BC" is if they somehow manage to suppress any further independent testing performed on behalf of private citizens such as Alexandra Morton. And to their credit they have succeed in Canada, as in this country today, quite shamefully, no labs will accept any samples from individuals and independent groups. But how do they intend to prevent other labs worldwide to conduct such tests? In particular, how do they plan to tame American labs after headlines such as those of the Seattle Times?"

 

 

Please note the 'Scientists' Think Tank' tonight (7pm) in Vancouver at Simon Fraser University (Harbour Centre, Room 1900, 515 West Hastings St) – details online here

 

Note that on 15th & 16th December there will be an ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission – details online here (more background here).   

 

 

Read the leaked Canadian Government report detailing over 100 positive tests for ISA in farmed Atlantic and wild Pacific salmon – online via 'Fishyleaks

'

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast - online here

 

Read the Norwegian laboratory report on the 6th and 7th positive tests for ISA in Fraser River coho and sockeye – online here

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia"

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 01, 2011, 05:50:59 PM
Thanks Dave. I figured out how to better hide my goat and thought I'd join the conversation.

Chris, I'm not now and never have been associated with the DFO or FOC but I think you'll find I do know something about the subject of fish farming.

I was serious with what I suggested earlier about asking Morton why she pushed so hard to put the farms under DFO mandate. I really would like to know since it seems such a strategic error in her campaign to eliminate farms. As you may have noticed, Morton's blog never displays any questioning comments or answers any request for specific information. She only seems to publish and respond to the comments bestowing praise on herself and damnation on the farms. Consequently, I can't get an answer to my question. Perhaps you and your connection with her network would have better luck obtaining an answer. I'd really appreciate it if you could.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 01, 2011, 06:06:09 PM
Thanks Dave. I figured out how to better hide my goat and thought I'd join the conversation.

Chris, I'm not now and never have been associated with the DFO or FOC but I think you'll find I do know something about the subject of fish farming.

I was serious with what I suggested earlier about asking Morton why she pushed so hard to put the farms under DFO mandate. I really would like to know since it seems such a strategic error in her campaign to eliminate farms. As you may have noticed, Morton's blog never displays any questioning comments or answers any request for specific information. She only seems to publish and respond to the comments bestowing praise on herself and damnation on the farms. Consequently, I can't get an answer to my question. Perhaps you and your connection with her network would have better luck obtaining an answer. I'd really appreciate it if you could.
I would suggest you ask her yourself so you can correspond directly.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 01, 2011, 06:06:30 PM


More cover up?

Unpublished DFO report finds 100% of Cultus Lake sockeye found with deadly salmon virus
  By Paul J. Henderson, Chilliwack Times December 1, 2011 1:59 PM   A seven-year-old unpublished report indicates 100 per cent of a sample of Cultus Lake sockeye salmon tested positive for a potentially deadly salmon virus.

The undated report (likely from 2004) produced at a Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) station in Nanaimo, tested wild Pacific—sockeye, chinook and pink—from various locations, including Cultus Lake.

Twenty-two per cent of the salmon, or 117 out of more than 500 samples tested positive for ISA, with more than half of the positive tests from the Fraser River.

And more than half of all the positive test results came from the 64 out of 64 samples of Cultus Lake sockeye found with ISA virus.

While it is unclear why the report was shelved when it was first produced, co-author Molly Kibenge sent a Nov. 4, 2011 email to another co-author asking permission to now submit the work for publication to a scientific journal.

"I would like to submit it to Diseases of Aquatic Organisms or Journal of Fish Diseases," Kibenge wrote to Dr. Simon Jones. "What do you think?"

In an email that same day, Jones declined to give her permission, saying that DFO scientists disagreed with her results. He also said that the Cohen Commission was scheduled to reconvene in December to hear evidence on ISA virus in B.C.

"I will wait to hear the outcome of these processes before further discussion on a seven-year-old manuscript," Jones wrote.

The emails and the report were posted on an anti-salmon farm blogger's site, superheroes4salmon.org. On the site, the write said the report was made available on Nov. 23 to participants in the Cohen Commission, the judicial inquiry looking into the decline of Fraser River sockeye salmon.

When asked Tuesday by a Seattle Times reporter, DFO declined to answer questions and issued a brief statement that said, in part: "Based on the best science available, it was concluded that her results had produced a false positive."

Infectious Salmon Anemia virus (ISA) was in the news a month ago when federal officials said reports that the deadly virus was infecting B.C. salmon were unfounded.

"There are no confirmed cases of ISA in wild or farm salmon in B.C.," said Con Kiley, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency's national aquatic animal health program director.

"There's no evidence that it occurs in fish off the [coast] of B.C."

Earlier test results found 48 sockeye smolts tested positive for the deadly European strain of the virus, but DFO said the samples were degraded rendering the conclusions useless, which is the same thing the agency said of Kibenge's results.

Groups opposed to the aquaculture industry in B.C. say the big questions is, if ISA is in the province, was imported on salmon eggs by Norwegian-owned salmon farming companies, and what would happen if it got into fish farms, mutated and spread to wild populations.

Mary Ellen Walling, executive director for the B.C. Salmon Farmers Association, said her organization was "dismayed at the way campaigners used this to create fear about our operations."

The 2004 the report does not address the source of the ISA virus, including whether it is linked to fish farms.

The Canadian government may be disputing the recent ISA test results, and the results from the 2004 study, but American politicians are acting.

On Nov. 17, the U.S. Senate passed a bill introduced by Washington Senator Maria Cantwell, and backed by all eight western state senators, that calls on the National Aquatic Animal Health Task Force to evaluate the risk the virus could have on wild salmon off West Coast and Alaskan waters.

While those inside DFO question the results from seven years ago, the aquatic habitat specialist for the David Suzuki Foundation said the implications of the unreleased report were appalling.

“Someone should be going to jail over this,” said Werring wrote in an email to other environmental organizations on Nov. 23. “Never in my over 20 years of doing my work have I seen such duplicity by our government. The closest thing I can relate to is when whistle blowers in the U.S. released documents showing that tobacco companies knew their product harmed people. This document (2004 draft) shows our government has known for years that ISAV has been in the Pacific and they have done nothing except cover it up. Appalling!”


Read more: http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/news/Unpublished+report+finds+Cultus+Lake+sockeye+found+with+deadly+salmon+virus/5797701/story.html#ixzz1fL0LqTDZ
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 01, 2011, 07:10:21 PM

Have you read the report and the emails regarding it's submittal for possible publication? Or are you just relying on a Seattle reporter's version of the version of the story he was given? You can find the manuscript at http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/DFO%20draft%20mamuscript_2004%281%29.pdf. (http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/DFO%20draft%20mamuscript_2004%281%29.pdf.). Pay particular attention to Dr. Simon Jones' email to Molly Kibenge. It specifies the criteria by which ISA is officially recognized and you will note from both the comments and the report, that those conditions were not met. With that being the case, what exactly is being concealed?

There are not 100 positive cases of ISA in farmed and wild salmon in BC. There are no cases of ISA and have not ever been any cases of confirmed ISA in the province. ISA is a disease, not a virus and it has never been present. There is a possibility that a virus that is a precursor to the virus which causes ISA is present, but that can't be confirmed because the virus could not be cultured in any of the purported cases. The accusations by the anti-farm lobby are deliberate misinformation intended to wind up uninformed people and conceal the scientific reality. It is not the DFO that can't be trusted. It is the DFO that works with proven facts and science.

You have Morton to thank for the responsibility for farms being placed with the DFO. If the DFO are so untrustworthy, why did Morton push so hard to put it in their hands. Perhaps you should ask her why she did and when you do, would you please enlighten us. Perhaps Chris might do this for us seeing as he is plugged into that network.

Welcome aboard Absolon...   Initially, I thought you were Dave's alter ego (you sound a lot like him), but I think I recognize your handle from another forum. You've said you don't work for DFO, so you must work with the fish farms.

The oceans and whatever happens with them has always been the responsibility of the federal government (constitution thing). The provincial government in their enthusiasm to create an industry growing salmon in cages in the ocean, took on the responsibility. They had the blessing of the federal government because it was a cost they didn't have to pay for yet they still got the tax dollars.

The problem was that the provincial government did not have the legal right to do anything about the farms! They didn't even have the right to lease the pen locations! It is impossible to legally challenge someone on something they have no jurisdiction over. Morton recognized that and raised the issue in court. As a result DFO took back the responsibility. Unfortunately we still have a problem where the fox is looking after the hen house....

Interesting spin on making Morton responsible for the DFO fish farm fiasco. Is that what the fish farm publicists are spinning now?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 01, 2011, 08:41:49 PM
Thanks for the welcome. No, I don't work for the farms. I have a small business building doors, cabinets and furniture that I've been building for 15 years. I do have training and I have worked in the industry in the past so I have the tools to understand it and some actual experience to contrast to the claims made. Mostly though, I'm just interested in salmon farming and stay informed but I also have to admit that Morton's disinformation campaign fascinates me.

The situation prior to DFO assuming responsibility was acceptable to all parties involved except Morton, not unreasonable since agriculture and crop production are a provincial responsibility. It was her court challenge that caused the change to the current state of affairs. I can't for the life of me understand why Morton would be so insistent on DFO taking responsibility if they are as dishonest, incompetent and secretive as Morton and folks like yourself suggest that they are. If those allegations are true, it would be like issuing a death sentence to wild salmon and we all know Morton is devoted to saving them.

Did you read the linked material underlying this latest tempest? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 01, 2011, 08:44:21 PM
I would suggest you ask her yourself so you can correspond directly.

Thanks anyway Chris. Morton doesn't respond well to those who have criticisms of her methods and ideas. I thought you might have a better chance of actually getting a response.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 01, 2011, 08:50:10 PM
Welcome aboard Absolon...   Initially, I thought you were Dave's alter ego (you sound a lot like him)
I take that as a huge compliment; thanks alwaysfishin :)

The only fish farm fiasco I see is that the general public is getting way too much poorly advised media coverage, both from the Morton camp and the conspicuously non existent Communications Branch of DFO/PMO.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 01, 2011, 09:07:23 PM
Thanks for the welcome. No, I don't work for the farms. I have a small business building doors, cabinets and furniture that I've been building for 15 years. I do have training and I have worked in the industry in the past so I have the tools to understand it and some actual experience to contrast to the claims made. Mostly though, I'm just interested in salmon farming and stay informed but I also have to admit that Morton's disinformation campaign fascinates me.

The situation prior to DFO assuming responsibility was acceptable to all parties involved except Morton, not unreasonable since agriculture and crop production are a provincial responsibility. It was her court challenge that caused the change to the current state of affairs. I can't for the life of me understand why Morton would be so insistent on DFO taking responsibility if they are as dishonest, incompetent and secretive as Morton and folks like yourself suggest that they are. If those allegations are true, it would be like issuing a death sentence to wild salmon and we all know Morton is devoted to saving them.

Did you read the linked material underlying this latest tempest? Any thoughts?

Probably can exclude the general public as well as Morton. It's rather important to have the appropriate authorities looking after their legal responsibilities. The BC government is responsible for natural resources but they can't start drilling oil or gas wells off the coast without permission from the federal government.

But you know all that, and the spin you are putting on Morton having made a mistake in ensuring that DFO take back a legal responsibility is pretty silly.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on December 01, 2011, 09:13:22 PM
I believe that the big push to get the DFO to look after the Salmon was that so many BC Liberals had stocks in the fish farms. I remember Gordo saying he does not know what his stock portfolio had in it. Ya right.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 01, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
I take that as a huge compliment; thanks alwaysfishin :)

The only fish farm fiasco I see is that the general public is getting way too much poorly advised media coverage, both from the Morton camp and the conspicuously non existent Communications Branch of DFO/PMO.


As well David you should include all the expensive TV ads the fish farms industry is running during prime time the last while, even during Canuck hockey games. ::)

 This shows they are very concerned on what is developing to their industry as the evidence continues to mount in showing the damage these farms are doing to our wild salmon stocks and the environment.

Not sure when the message will get through that all the problems that have arisen over the years in so many other countries with these ocean located farms is now raising its ugly head here, what a tragedy to say the least.

Thankfully we have many continuing to work hard to expose the truth even as hard it is to try and convince some.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 01, 2011, 09:33:44 PM
StillAqua

            Don't believe everything that comes out of the Cohen hearings. Lots of politics and fancy lawyers who can manipulate data to their liking. As you can see we can't trust DFO or the federal government.
So true Buck. :( A recent e mail I received on what went on there on several issues including fish farms was very unsettling. One day I may ask if I can share it here.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 01, 2011, 09:46:16 PM
Probably can exclude the general public as well as Morton. It's rather important to have the appropriate authorities looking after their legal responsibilities. The BC government is responsible for natural resources but they can't start drilling oil or gas wells off the coast without permission from the federal government.

But you know all that, and the spin you are putting on Morton having made a mistake in ensuring that DFO take back a legal responsibility is pretty silly.

You're missing the point. Whether it was a mistake or not is irrelevant. I'm wondering why she fought so hard to have the responsibility shifted to people she considers unfit to manage it. It doesn't seem very rational to me.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 01, 2011, 10:09:20 PM
So true Buck. :( A recent e mail I received on what went on there on several issues including fish farms was very unsettling. One day I may ask if I can share it here.
Chris, who do you have to ask to share your insider information?   You've never shied away before in your political leanings ... why now ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 01, 2011, 10:26:26 PM
Chris, who do you have to ask to share your insider information?   You've never shied away before in your political leanings ... why now ???

He needs to have it peer reviewed before being published....  " as it carries a very high scientific standard for peer review and acceptance." (I have no idea what that means, but apparently StillAqua does)   ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 02, 2011, 05:54:16 AM
The only fish farm fiasco I see is that the general public is getting way too much poorly advised media coverage, both from the Morton camp and the conspicuously non existent Communications Branch of DFO/PMO.
"Poorly advised" is a huge understatement. I remember a time when news was based on actual interviews with all the parties involved and fact-based accurate stories were the ethical standard for a reporter and the news. Those days seem to be long gone. Supermarket checkout tabloids seem to be the new standard.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 02, 2011, 10:11:13 AM
A few more hours of reading. ;D ;D

Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"More salmon shenanigans in British Columbia" (Nature, 2nd December): http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/12/more_salmon_shenanigans_in_bri.html

 

"DFO says ISA reports were 'false positives'" (The Courier-Islander, 2nd December): http://www.canada.com/says+reports+were+false+positives/5800672/story.html

 

"Suspicious ISA virus infected centre detected" (FIS, 2nd December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=2&id=48163&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Did Canada cover up deadly salmon virus? Report suggests yes" (Los Angeles Times, 1st December): http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/12/infectious-salmon-anemia-virus-salmon-report.html

 

"Editorial: Share information: Salmon viruses do not respect borders" (The Seattle Times, 1st December): http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorials/2016910025_edit02virus.html

 

"Dead zones in our future: Brought to us by Cooke Aquaculture" (South Coast Today/Passages, 1st December): http://www.southcoasttoday.ca/content/opinion-dead-zones-our-future

 

"Unpublished DFO report finds 100% of Cultus Lake sockeye found with deadly salmon virus" (Chilliwack Times, 1st December): http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/news/Unpublished+report+finds+Cultus+Lake+sockeye+found+with+deadly+salmon/5797701/story.html

 

"Active farm sites for 2011 outmigration mapped for public" (BC Salmon Farmers Association, 1st December): http://www.salmonfarmers.org/active-farm-sites-2011-outmigration-mapped-public 

 

"Witnesses weigh in on closed-containment salmon farming" (iPolitics, 1st December): http://www.ipolitics.ca/2011/12/01/witnesses-weigh-in-on-closed-containment-salmon-farming/

 

"Organic fish farm proposed for Inis Oírr" (The Irish Times, 1st December): http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1202/1224308473390.html

 

"Call for salmon input" (The Marlborough Express, 1st December): http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/picton/6074055/Call-for-salmon-input

 

"Skuna Bay partners with Aquarium of the Pacific" (Seafood Source, 1st December): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=13146

 

"Canada criticized on fish virus data" (The Chronicle Herald, 1st December): http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/38290-canada-criticized-fish-virus-data

"ISA Discovery Covered Up" (The Fish Site, 1st December): http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/16013/isa-discovery-covered-up

 

"Another ISA report surfaces in BC" (Fish Farming Xpert/Norwegian Fish Farmer, 1st December): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93251

 

"Was there evidence of ISA in B.C. wild salmon back in 2002?" (Intrafish, 30th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1262031.ece

 

"Leaks reveal ISA may have been detected in wild BC salmon in 2002" (Farmed & Dangerous, 30th November): http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/newsletter/2011/11/3785/

 

"Fishyleaks Reveals: Government Knew of Pacific Salmon Virus for Years" (Pacific Free Press, 30th November): http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1/10307-fishyleaks-reveals-government-knew-of-pacific-salmon-virus-for-years.html

 

"Letter: Skuna Bay welcomes tough questions" (Intrafish, 30th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1262048.ece

 

"Letter: Salmon revolution? Really" (Intrafish, 30th November): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1262034.ece

 

"Canadian government suppressing science on Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) on Pacific Coast?" (The Salmon Guy, 30th November): http://www.salmonguy.org/?p=4625

 

 

Including from Anne Casselman writing in Nature today:

 

"This recent outing of subterfuge comes hot on the heels of an announcement made in mid-October by Simon Fraser University biologist Rick Routledge that ISA was present in two out of 48 young salmon from Rivers Inlet, British Columbia. For all anyone knew, Routledge's discovery was the first reported case of ISA in wild salmon. But with the revelation of the 2002 DFO report, it appears that may not be the case..... Whether ISA is the salmon equivalent of measles being introduced to indigenous North Americans remains unclear. One of the authors of the recently surfaced DFO report concludes in the report that the ISA-like virus detected may in fact be a local and wild strain of ISA. The same author hasn't been granted permission by the DFO to submit the study data for publication in an academic journal."

 

From an article in today's Courier-Islander:

 

"DFO said in a statement Wednesday that there is still no credible evidence of ISA in the north Pacific.  "The type of testing used by Dr. Kibenge in 2003/04 is a highly sensitive test that often produces false positive results," the DFO said in a statement.  Further testing was needed for confirmation, it said. "Appropriate follow-up was done on Dr. Kibenge's work, using more thorough testing procedures, and, based on the best science available, it was concluded that her results had produced a false positive and there was no presence of ISA in her samples."

 

From the Los Angeles Times:

 

"Call it Salmongate. The deepening controversy over who knew what and when about a deadly virus that may or may not have been detected in West Coast salmon would be obscure fodder for biologists if there weren't so much at stake -- the health of the West's dwindling stocks of wild salmon, for one. And Canada's $2.1-billion fish farming industry"

 

An Editorial in The Seattle Times:

 

"Concerns about salmon viruses must be shared between the U.S. and Canada. Threats to a lucrative industry do not respect borders"

 

And from The Chilliwack Times:

 

"Someone should be going to jail over this,” said Werring wrote in an email to other environmental organizations on Nov. 23. “Never in my over 20 years of doing my work have I seen such duplicity by our government. The closest thing I can relate to is when whistle blowers in the U.S. released documents showing that tobacco companies knew their product harmed people. This document (2004 draft) shows our government has known for years that ISAV has been in the Pacific and they have done nothing except cover it up. Appalling!”

 

 

Note that on 15th & 16th December there will be an ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission – details online here (more background here).   

 

 

Read the leaked Canadian Government report detailing over 100 positive tests for ISA in farmed Atlantic and wild Pacific salmon – online via 'Fishyleaks

'

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast - online here

 

Read the Norwegian laboratory report on the 6th and 7th positive tests for ISA in Fraser River coho and sockeye – online here

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia"

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 02, 2011, 11:21:03 AM
The outrage from the Americans is really quite interesting. They have an active salmon farming industry in Washington, a huge hatchery based salmon ranching operation in Alaska and a significant salmon fishing industry in both states. One has to wonder why they aren't doing their own testing for the various diseases that might affect those industries.

Perhaps the so-called outrage spurred on by Senator Cantwell has more to do with her upcoming re-election bid in 2012.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on December 02, 2011, 03:37:52 PM


The outrage from the Americans is really quite interesting. They have an active salmon farming industry in Washington, a huge hatchery based salmon ranching operation in Alaska and a significant salmon fishing industry in both states. One has to wonder why they aren't doing their own testing for the various diseases that might affect those industries.

Perhaps the so-called outrage spurred on by Senator Cantwell has more to do with her upcoming re-election bid in 2012.


http://www.ehow.com/facts_6319116_washington-state-fish-farming.html

Two fish farm companies pumping out a fraction of what's going on here. I think the fish farmers know if they screw up down there with a virus, their going to jail. Up here if they let loose a virus nothing will happen and the Americans will sue the Canadian public for infecting their waters.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 02, 2011, 03:51:37 PM
He needs to have it peer reviewed before being published.... 
I consider myself a peer in this case and would like to read what Chris needs permission to write. This post is now 16 pages and has been viewed (at last count) 4342 times.  I'm sure these viewers are also interested in this insider info that is twisting Chris's shorts.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 02, 2011, 04:01:51 PM

This may make some happy for a while. ::)

December 2, 2011
Statement From the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Keith Ashfield, on Negative Infectious Salmon Anaemia Test Results in British Columbia Salmon

OTTAWA, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - Dec. 2, 2011) - Federal officials from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, along with officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada and British Columbia's Chief Veterinary Officer, held a technical briefing today confirming that additional in-depth test results showed no signs of Infectious Salmon Anaemia (ISA) in British Columbia salmon. Officials provided information on the extensive investigation by the Government of Canada into claims about the presence of the disease in B.C. waters.

The Honourable Keith Ashfield, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, made the following statement following the technical briefing:

"After Canada's reputation has needlessly been put at risk over the past several weeks because of speculation and unfounded science, additional in-depth, conclusive tests, using proper and internationally recognized procedures, are now complete and we can confirm that there has never been a confirmed case of ISA in BC salmon, wild or farmed.

"The National Reference Laboratory has completed all testing and analysis of all the samples under investigation and none have tested positive for ISA.

"This reinforces the regular testing conducted by federal and provincial officials; in recent years, over 5000 fresh, properly collected and stored samples have been tested and there has never been a confirmed case of ISA in British Columbia salmon.

"Canada's current practices and procedures to protect our wild and farmed salmon industries from disease are in place and working; that is why we can be proud of all aspects of the Canadian fishing industry, which is recognized worldwide as a leader in the production of high-quality, safe and sustainable seafood.

"Fisheries and Oceans Canada, CFIA and provincial governments will continue to work together to maintain our excellent international reputation."

Related information:

News release: Canada Completes Infectious Salmon Anaemia Testing: No Confirmed Cases in BC Salmon

Backgrounder: Protecting Canada's Aquatic Species from Disease - a focus on Canada's Pacific Region
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 02, 2011, 04:03:11 PM
Troutbreath, if the presence of the virus poses a high risk to wild stocks, wouldn't the wild fisheries also be a concern, and in the western US and Alaska where about 150,000,000 "wild" fish are caught each year providing a very substantial economic benefit, those fisheries are of great concern.

Under those circumstances, wouldn't it be logical to be testing the wild stocks? As it happens, Dr. James Winton, the chief of the fish health section of the Western Fisheries Research Center and also the US scientist quoted in most of the articles, is precisely the man who should have been doing that. With the enormous value to the US from salmon, he should have been in a position to tell us about the results of US tests rather than blaming us for not telling him about the Kibenge manuscript.

As some wise person once pointed out, God is in the details.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 02, 2011, 04:16:06 PM
More links from above.
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/corpaffr/newcom/2011/20111202e.shtml

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/back-fiche/2011/20111202-eng.htm
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 02, 2011, 07:47:59 PM
This may make some happy for a while. ::)

December 2, 2011
Statement From the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Keith Ashfield, on Negative Infectious Salmon Anaemia Test Results in British Columbia Salmon

OTTAWA, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - Dec. 2, 2011) - Federal officials from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, along with officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada and British Columbia's Chief Veterinary Officer, held a technical briefing today confirming that additional in-depth test results showed no signs of Infectious Salmon Anaemia (ISA) in British Columbia salmon. Officials provided information on the extensive investigation by the Government of Canada into claims about the presence of the disease in B.C. waters.

The Honourable Keith Ashfield, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, made the following statement following the technical briefing:

"After Canada's reputation has needlessly been put at risk over the past several weeks because of speculation and unfounded science, additional in-depth, conclusive tests, using proper and internationally recognized procedures, are now complete and we can confirm that there has never been a confirmed case of ISA in BC salmon, wild or farmed.

"The National Reference Laboratory has completed all testing and analysis of all the samples under investigation and none have tested positive for ISA.

"This reinforces the regular testing conducted by federal and provincial officials; in recent years, over 5000 fresh, properly collected and stored samples have been tested and there has never been a confirmed case of ISA in British Columbia salmon.

"Canada's current practices and procedures to protect our wild and farmed salmon industries from disease are in place and working; that is why we can be proud of all aspects of the Canadian fishing industry, which is recognized worldwide as a leader in the production of high-quality, safe and sustainable seafood.

"Fisheries and Oceans Canada, CFIA and provincial governments will continue to work together to maintain our excellent international reputation."

Related information:

News release: Canada Completes Infectious Salmon Anaemia Testing: No Confirmed Cases in BC Salmon

Backgrounder: Protecting Canada's Aquatic Species from Disease - a focus on Canada's Pacific Region

That's good news Chris!  But I can't help but wonder if DFO is telling the truth or whether they are spinning a story and hoping they don't get caught......

Now the best we can hope for is that DFO will be a little more forth coming with their "science". I'm also happy knowing that the Americans are going to be putting more pressure on DFO to try and ensure that these farmed diseases don't effect the wild salmon.

Public awareness is a wonderful thing. We can all thank Morton for getting the ball rolling.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 02, 2011, 08:17:54 PM
That's good news Chris!  But I can't help but wonder if DFO is telling the truth or whether they are spinning a story and hoping they don't get caught......

Now the best we can hope for is that DFO will be a little more forth coming with their "science". I'm also happy knowing that the Americans are going to be putting more pressure on DFO to try and ensure that these farmed diseases don't effect the wild salmon.

Public awareness is a wonderful thing. We can all thank Morton for getting the ball rolling.
This is not the end of this saga by any means.

B.C. salmon virus unconfirmed says food agency
 
 
  
 
Deadly European virus found in B.C. salmon
Scientists at odds over B.C. coast salmon virus The Canadian Food Inspection Agency says it has been unable to confirm the presence of a potentially lethal fish virus in B.C. salmon, despite previous findings by a world renowned expert on the virus.

Infectious salmon anemia, or ISA, was first detected in wild B.C. salmon two months ago by Simon Fraser University Prof. Rick Routledge, putting the federal food agency and B.C.'s fish farming industry on high alert.

But Cornelius Kiley, a spokesperson for the Canada Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), says the federal government's lab has been unable to duplicate the results using the same samples.

"Based upon the final results that have been completed, there are no confirmed cases of the disease virus in wild or farmed salmon in British Columbia," he said.

Kiley and other senior officials with the CFIA and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans are refusing to speculate on the scientific discrepancies.

"We may never be able to say definitively one way or the other as to what occurred," they told CBC.

But Alexandra Morton, a fish biologist who has lobbied hard for the end of B.C.'s fish farms, takes little comfort from Friday's results.

"If you went to three doctors and two of them said you had a life threatening disease and the third said you did not, would you take confidence in that and go on your merry way, or would you try to figure out why there was a difference in these three labs?"

The alleged presence of ISA in B.C. salmon stocks is so controversial because it had never before been found in salmon off B.C.'s coast, either in the Atlantic species that are raised in ocean pens or in B.C.'s indigenous wild salmon.

The virus is known to be devastating to farmed Atlantic salmon and opponents of the fish farm industry have suggested farmed fish could spread it to wild stocks, with catastrophic results.

The CFIA says it is examining how things were done in the labs that got the different results. The crisis has also prompted the agency to develop a regular surveillance program for the devastating virus that it expects to have in place as early as next spring.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 02, 2011, 08:30:41 PM
Some may be interested. :-\

Q&A on the occurrence of Infectious Salmon Anaemia (ISA) in Shetland
Q1. How do we know it is ISA?
ISA is a disease which affects salmon in seawater.

ISA is identified through the incidence of:

High and persistent mortality
Characteristic visual signs
Identification of the disease agent which is a virus
ISA is diagnosed by reference to an internationally established diagnostic protocol. For all cases occurring within the EU the standard diagnostic definition used is defined in the EU fish health Decision No 2003/466/EC

Characteristic visual symptoms include darkening of the liver, severe anaemia, pale gills and visceral haemorrhage.

Q2. Does ISA affect wild fish?

Extensive testing of wild fish at the time of the outbreak in 1998-99 did find some evidence of ISA virus in salmonid species. The prevalence of infection was low. There was no evidence that it caused disease and no clinical signs were observed. There is no evidence from Norway, where ISA has been present since 1984, that ISA causes disease or harmful effects in wild Atlantic salmon.

Q3. Source of ISA infection?

This is under active investigation. The outbreak will be the subject of a scientific study to determine the source of the infection, the distribution of the disease in the environment and the risk of further spread (an 'epizootic study' of fish disease, equivalent to an epidemiological study of human disease incidence and transfer).

Q4. How is ISA transmitted?

ISA is transmitted between fish by direct contact, by infected blood, urine, other body fluids and faeces. Movements of live fish pose the greatest risk of spread of disease. Untreated effluent from processing plants has also been identified as being a particular risk.

There is no recognised risk of transmission between generations via eggs and this is reflected in fish health legislation.

Q5. What action has been taken to address the outbreak of ISA and to reduce the risk of further spread?

Official controls have been placed on the infected farms, the first of which was cleared of fish before confirmation of ISA, and other fish farm sites nearby, in the Control Zone. These have the effect of prohibiting the movement of all fish and fish eggs and, in the case of sites where a confirmed occurrence or official suspicion is in place, the movement of personnel, materials and equipment that could transfer virus to or from the Control Zone, without the express permission of Scottish Ministers. A number of other farms in the wider Surveillance Zone continue to be subject to official surveillance and health inspections on the movement of live fish.

The Fish Health Inspectorate of the Scottish Government has sent a team to Shetland to conduct detailed site inspections and sampling of all fish and sites in the Control Zone.

Q6. What next?

All sites in the control and surveillance zones will continue to be inspected by staff from Marine Scotland's Fish Health Inspectorate.

Q7. Have there been outbreaks elsewhere?

ISA disease has been widespread in Norway since the 1980s. Outbreaks have been reported in Canada and recent outbreaks in Chile have been particularly severe. The Faroe Islands' salmon farming industry was destroyed by ISA in 2000.

There has been one previous outbreak of ISA in Scotland in 1998-99 and was estimated by industry to have cost £30 million. It was significantly more widespread than the present outbreak and affected all fish farming areas of Scotland and the majority of fish farming companies. Prompt action to remove farmed fish from infected areas, with the co-operation of our salmon farming industry, succeeded in eradicating that outbreak.

The lessons learned from that outbreak have been incorporated in the salmon farming industry's Code of Good Practice.

Q8. Are there any risks to human health?

No. There is no history of any fish virus causing disease in humans. Fish are cold-blooded and research has shown that the ISA virus does not survive in (warm blooded) mammals and humans. ISA is not transferable to humans and poses no risk to human health.

Q9. What are we going to do to raise awareness?

We have briefed industry representatives, informed the media and have sent an information leaflet to all marine fish farmers in Scotland.

Q10. What is the impact on live salmon imports?

Importation of live salmonids is normally prohibited except from areas of equivalent health status.

Imports of live fish into Scotland have not been allowed from Norway, Chile or Canada as no salmon populations there satisfy the fish health requirements for import into the UK. Importation of salmon eggs is permitted provided the Official Service can certify that exporting farm is not subject to official controls for ISA or other serious diseases and the eggs are disinfected prior to dispatch.

Q11. What is the impact on exports of live salmon and salmon eggs from Shetland?

Salmon farming companies in the south-west area of Shetland have been advised that until further notice they cannot trade into areas or countries that are free of ISA.

Q12. What will happen to the dead fish?

Fish must be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of the EU Animal By-Products Regulation (EC) No 1774/2002, implemented in Scotland by the Animal By-Products (Scotland) Regulations 2003, SSI No 411/2003. The first preference is rendering. Other options are incineration and in remote areas deep burial. Ensiling, macerating in acid, is also employed to kill the virus.

On Shetland there is a licensed secure landfill site which takes receipt of ensiled fish and some fish are being incinerated.

Q13. How many fish farms are affected?

ISA has been confirmed on six sites which are close to each other. Movement restrictions have been applied to all farm sites within the Control Zone and a surrounding Surveillance Zone.

Q14. What will happen to fish in sites within the Control Zone?

Fish of marketable size may be authorised for moving to processing facilities for harvest. Those below harvestable size may continue to be grown out, or may be required to be slaughtered if ISA is confirmed on the farm.

Decisions will be taken in light of the scientific investigation of the prevalence and potential routes of spread of the disease.

Q15. Compensation

Compensation has been offered to one Shetland company which has had to destroy healthy fish as a result of ISA movement restrictions. The compensation offer will be subject to European Commission state aid approval.

Compensation will not be offered for ISA-affected fish stocks in line with practice in other salmon-producing countries in Europe. However European Fisheries Fund resources will be made available to affected small and medium-sized enterprises. Details of the scheme will be announced shortly.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: rjs on December 02, 2011, 11:01:56 PM
didn't those lunatics at dfo just give the fish farms a $1,000,000 grant to help advertise these fish ??? did some senior official look at his stock port folio and realized he was losing $$$$ i think some investigation in insider trading is needed at dfo ! just saying ! let us all look at there stock port folio !
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 03, 2011, 07:27:49 AM
Cohen has just added a third day to look into ISA.

Media alert: Cohen Commission to hold three days of hearings on ISAv testing December 15, 16 and 19

(Vancouver) The Cohen Commission of Inquiry into the Decline of Sockeye Salmon in the Fraser River will hold three additional days of evidentiary hearings December 15, 16 and 19 in Vancouver to put new information about recent testing for the ISA virus in BC on the commission’s record.

Currently scheduled witnesses are:

Panel 1 (December 15 & 16):

    * Dr. Fred Kibenge, Chairman, Department of Pathology and Microbiology, Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island
    * Dr. Are Nylund, Professor, University of Bergen, Norway( Dec. 15 only)
    * Mrs. Nellie Gagné, Molecular Biology Scientist and Laboratory Supervisor, DFO, Moncton
    * Dr. Kristi Miller, Head Molecular Genetics, DFO, Nanaimo (Dec. 15 only)

Panel 2 (December 16 & 19):

    * Dr. Kim C. Klotins, Acting National Manager, Disease Control Contingency Planning, Aquatic Animal Health Division, CFIA, Ottawa
    * Dr. Peter Wright, National Manager, National Aquatic Animal Health Laboratory System, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Moncton
    * Dr. Simon Jones, Research Scientist, DFO, Nanaimo
    * Mr. Stephen Stephen, Director Biotechnology and Aquatic Animal Health Sciences Branch, DFO, Ottawa

These hearings will be held in the Asia Pacific Hall at the Morris J Wosk Centre for Dialogue at 580 West Hastings Street in Vancouver. On December 15, hearings will be held from 9 am to 4 pm. On December 16 and 19 hearings will be held from 10 am to 4 pm. Hearings are open to the public however seating may be limited. Media recording or broadcasting of the hearings may be allowed with advance arrangements. To discuss, contact Carla Shore at 604-658-3646 or carla.shore@cohencommission.ca.
About the Cohen Commission

The Cohen Commission (www.cohencommission.ca) was established on November 5, 2009 with the appointment of the Honourable Bruce Cohen as Commissioner. Under its Terms of Reference, the commission will hold hearings to investigate and report on the decline of sockeye salmon in the Fraser River. Based on its findings, the commission will make recommendations for improving the future sustainability of the sockeye salmon fishery in the Fraser River, including, as required, any changes to the policies, practices and procedures of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in relation to the management of the Fraser River sockeye salmon fishery. The commission’s final report must be submitted on or before June 30, 2012.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 03, 2011, 08:02:53 AM
Cohen has just added a third day to look into ISA.

Media alert: Cohen Commission to hold three days of hearings on ISAv testing December 15, 16 and 19

(Vancouver) The Cohen Commission of Inquiry into the Decline of Sockeye Salmon in the Fraser River will hold three additional days of evidentiary hearings December 15, 16 and 19 in Vancouver to put new information about recent testing for the ISA virus in BC on the commission’s record.

Currently scheduled witnesses are:

Panel 1 (December 15 & 16):

    * Dr. Fred Kibenge, Chairman, Department of Pathology and Microbiology, Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island
    * Dr. Are Nylund, Professor, University of Bergen, Norway( Dec. 15 only)
    * Mrs. Nellie Gagné, Molecular Biology Scientist and Laboratory Supervisor, DFO, Moncton
    * Dr. Kristi Miller, Head Molecular Genetics, DFO, Nanaimo (Dec. 15 only)

Panel 2 (December 16 & 19):

    * Dr. Kim C. Klotins, Acting National Manager, Disease Control Contingency Planning, Aquatic Animal Health Division, CFIA, Ottawa
    * Dr. Peter Wright, National Manager, National Aquatic Animal Health Laboratory System, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Moncton
    * Dr. Simon Jones, Research Scientist, DFO, Nanaimo
    * Mr. Stephen Stephen, Director Biotechnology and Aquatic Animal Health Sciences Branch, DFO, Ottawa


But according to you and Buck, none of this can be trusted?  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 03, 2011, 08:05:42 AM
But according to you and Buck, none of this can be trusted?  ::) ::)
Just posting the information for you. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 03, 2011, 09:10:41 AM
didn't those lunatics at dfo just give the fish farms a $1,000,000 grant to help advertise these fish ??? did some senior official look at his stock port folio and realized he was losing $$$$ i think some investigation in insider trading is needed at dfo ! just saying ! let us all look at there stock port folio !

No, as is so often the case when the information comes from fish farm opponents such as the woman who wrote that article, the details aren't quite correct and the context is entirely omitted. What really happened is that Agriculture Canada gave the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance, a group that represents all aquaculture producers including shellfish, seaweed, algae, tilapia, trout, salmon, etc, a grant for 1.2 million.

To put that in context, in the first quarter, the Swine Association got $24 million, the Cattlemen's Association got $5.5 million,  the Flax Council got $4.8 million and so on. In the last quarter's grants, Cargill, a privately company, was handed $10 million and I've not heard anyone complain about that. You can have a look at all the grants and contributions for the first quarter here as well as linking to previous quarter's listings.

http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1314385087942&lang=eng (http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1314385087942&lang=eng)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 03, 2011, 09:33:31 AM
No, as is so often the case when the information comes from fish farm opponents such as the woman who wrote that article, the details aren't quite correct and the context is entirely omitted. What really happened is that Agriculture Canada gave the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance, a group that represents all aquaculture producers including shellfish, seaweed, algae, tilapia, trout, salmon, etc, a grant for 1.2 million.

To put that in context, in the first quarter, the Swine Association got $24 million, the Cattlemen's Association got $5.5 million,  the Flax Council got $4.8 million and so on. In the last quarter's grants, Cargill, a privately company, was handed $10 million and I've not heard anyone complain about that. You can have a look at all the grants and contributions for the first quarter here as well as linking to previous quarter's listings.

http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1314385087942&lang=eng (http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1314385087942&lang=eng)
Its unfortunate that they donot increase the FOC budget instead of slashing spending for that ministry.

Employees of the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans were told Wednesday their employer will soon be significantly smaller, and responsible for fewer things.

DFO also warned its workers that some of them will definitely not be working there once the department completes a $56.8-million budget-cutting plan by 2014.

"More savings are expected in the future," said a letter signed by Deputy Minister Claire Dansereau and two other top officials.

The letter and supporting documents, which were obtained by CBC News, say reductions are part of a "dynamic change agenda," and will apply broadly to services that include the Canadian Coast Guard.

The changes incorporate cuts that have already been announced, including a controversial move to shut down the Maritime Rescue Sub Centre in St. John's and a similar office in Quebec, with service to be provided by staff in other provinces.

A background note says that DFO is "winding down or shedding non-core programs," as part of "key transformations" intended to render a more modern style of managing fish stocks, ecosystems, aquaculture and vessels.

The documents, obtained Wednesday by CBC News, do not include specific details on job losses, although the memo said DFO will attempt to mitigate cuts through attrition and new assignments.

"We will be phasing-in these and other change initiatives over three years to allow time for the Department, employees and stakeholders to adjust," the employee letter said.

"We are confident that the cumulative effects of these measures over the long-term will be positive, helping us to improve the quality, relevance and effectiveness of the Department’s programs and services."

DFO, which has sustained deep cuts to its science program over the last two decades, is preparing for further cuts in that area. Senior managers will be "finding efficiencies and simplifying how science is managed."

The department said it is moving to "an ecosystems approach to science."

The department also intends to make greater use of technologies, including moving to a web-based renewal and payment system for fishing licences.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 03, 2011, 09:50:50 AM
I agree Chris. It is penny-wise and pound-foolish to cut the funding, the sort of shortsighted decision one usually sees from agenda driven politicians.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 03, 2011, 03:46:06 PM
From Alex's note book.

Media on ISA virus cover up



The Cohen Commission's rules of confidentiality prevent me from talking about certain documents, but I am forwarding recent media that is in the public domain and not subject to confidentiality. This needs your response. I don't know what ISA virus is doing in BC. Was it always here? Is the avirulent strain here? Did the Norwegian companies import it? Why are farm salmon dying of the lesions of ISA virus? Are salmon farms amplifying it, allowing it to mutate and infecting wild salmon?

What I do know is government has not said anything that reassures me that they are taking the steps to answer these questions. ISA virus was not lethal to salmon in Norway until salmon feedlots gave it the conditions that caused it to become deadly. Increased virulence occurs wherever genetically similar animals are crowded into the feedlots. The unique thing about salmon feedlots is that they pour all their untreated waste, including mutating viruses, directly into most of the wild salmon of the south coast of BC because that is where government let them put their farms.

If the leaked document really says 100% of one run of Fraser sockeye tested positive for ISA virus, we have two very big problems. One, Justice Cohen instructed DFO to provide all documents relevant to the health of the Fraser sockeye and this was not one of them. Two it means we are repeatedly finding this virus in wild salmon stocks that are mysteriously vanishing, such as Rivers Inlet sockeye and salmon dying of unknown causes just before spawning.

If it is true that Fisheries and Oceans withheld information about a virus known to have spread everywhere Atlantic salmon are being farmed I think:

1 - DFO should be suspended from managing salmon farms
2 - a volunteer board of scientists, First Nations and others with deep commitment to maintaining wild salmon should step forward to oversee the ISA virus response
3 - Every hatchery should contact me about how they can test for ISA virus, because I know all those volunteers do not want to amplify this virus. I know you have been told not to give me samples, but I can help you do this yourself. Why wouldn't you want to know? Checking for disease in dead wild salmon is not a federal offense.

Whether or not a criminal investigation should be initiated will have to wait until we hear testimony at the Cohen Commission's special hearings on ISA virus on December 15, 16, 19.

I want to thank ALL of you for your comments and donations and to the dedicated volunteers out in freezing weather who continue to take the highest quality possible samples from the salmon that have died after and during spawning in rivers throughout BC. We are working with two of the best ISA virus labs in the world and my deepest thanks to them as well as they are suffering verbal attack. Those researchers will be appearing at the Cohen Commission special ISA virus emergency hearings. They are traveling very long distances and I am deeply thankful.

Before you look at the ISA virus articles you should also know the industry is failing on the world market and firing people because they cannot afford to raise as many Atlantic salmon. We need to ask if they are a viable industry worth the risk?



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 03, 2011, 03:49:19 PM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Media on ISA virus cover up" (Alexandra Morton, 3rd December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/media-on-isa-virus-cover-up.html

 

"ISA Nightmare Before Christmas" (Superheroes 4 Salmon, 3rd December): http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/isa-nightmare-christmas

 

"Scientists roll out plan to monitor B.C. salmon for virus/Deadly salmon virus not found in B.C., but scientists plan surveillance programs" (CTV/The Canadian Press, 3rd December): http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20111203/salmon-virus-british-columbia-cfia-111203.html

 

"Official tests find no evidence of salmon virus" (The Times Colonist, 3rd December): http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Official+tests+find+evidence+salmon+virus/5807157/story.html

 

"Media alert: Cohen Commission to hold three days of hearings on ISAv testing December 15, 16 and 19" (The Cohen Commission, 2nd December): http://cohencommission.ca/en/NewsReleases/HoldThreeDaysOfHearingsOnISAv.php

 

"B.C. salmon virus unconfirmed says food agency" (CBC, 2nd December): http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/12/02/bc-salmon-virus-not-found.html

"Deadly salmon virus not found in B.C., but scientists plan surveillance programs" (The Canadian Press/Winnipeg Free Press, 2nd December): http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/testing-confirms-no-deadly-virus-in-bc-salmon-but-new-surveillance-prompted-134930503.html

 

"Testing finds no deadly virus in B.C. salmon" (CTV, 2nd December): http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20111202/bc-salmon-virus-111202/

 

"No lethal virus in Pacific salmon, CFIA says" (The Globe & Mail, 2nd December): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/no-lethal-virus-in-pacific-salmon-cfia-says/article2258590/

 

"Canadian plot to unleash deadly salmon virus uncovered" Scrape TV, 2nd December): http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/pages-6/Canadian-plot-to-unleash-deadly-salmon-virus-uncovered-Scrape-TV-The-World-on-your-side-2011-12-02.html

 

"Final investigation by CFIA shows no ISA in B.C. salmon" (Mainstream Canada, 2nd December): http://www.mainstreamcanada.com/final-investigation-cfia-shows-no-isa-bc-salmon-0

 

"No ISA virus found in farmed or wild salmon, CFIA investigation shows" (BC Salmon Farmers Association, 2nd December): http://www.salmonfarmers.org/no-isa-virus-found-farmed-or-wild-salmon-cfia-investigation-shows

 

"Statement From the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Keith Ashfield, on Negative Infectious Salmon Anaemia Test Results in British Columbia Salmon" (DFO, 2nd December): http://www.marketwatch.com/story/statement-from-the-federal-minister-of-fisheries-and-oceans-canada-keith-ashfield-on-negative-infectious-salmon-anaemia-test-results-in-british-columbia-salmon-2011-12-02

 

"Canada Completes Infectious Salmon Anaemia Testing: No Confirmed Cases in BC Salmon" (CFIA/DFO, 2nd December): http://www.marketwatch.com/story/canada-completes-infectious-salmon-anaemia-testing-no-confirmed-cases-in-bc-salmon-2011-12-02

 

"Ewan Kennedy: Fish farms, endemic problems and steps to resolve them" (For Argyll, 2nd December): http://forargyll.com/2011/12/ewan-kennedy/

 

"Outdated regulations cause farmers concern" (The Courier-Islander, 2nd December): http://www.canada.com/Outdated+regulations+cause+farmers+concern/5800667/story.html

 

"Is government foot dragging costing processing jobs?" (The Courier-Islander, 2nd December): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/story.html?id=34e227df-f7d8-4d5d-8cd4-b4211089a3c7

"A sustainable solution – aquaculture" (Public Service, 1st December): http://www.publicservice.co.uk/feature_story.asp?id=17528

 

"Salmon virus study not shared with US" (The Juneau Empire, 1st December): http://juneauempire.com/state/2011-12-01/salmon-virus-study-not-shared-us

 

"Willie Mitchell submission to the Cohen Commission" (Cohen Commission, 30th November): http://cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/ViewASubmission.php?sub=916

 

 

Including from CBC News:

 

"But Alexandra Morton, a fish biologist who has lobbied hard for the end of B.C.'s fish farms, takes little comfort from Friday's results.  "If you went to three doctors and two of them said you had a life threatening disease and the third said you did not, would you take confidence in that and go on your merry way, or would you try to figure out why there was a difference in these three labs?"

 

From Mary-Ellen Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association:

 

"This is certainly an example of people with a clear agenda manipulating the scientific process to create unsubstantiated fear about our industry.  There's good reason why testing for disease like this includes a follow-up procedure, and it was irresponsible of those activists and institutions involved in the first release to act without respect for this process."

 

From The Canadian Press:

 

"Walling also wanted to warn individuals about making any unsubstantiated claims that the virus is linked to the industry, noting such claims could lead to "potential market impacts" like closed borders to wild and farmed products.  "If we were to start to see trade issues as a result of these accusations of ISA in our stocks, we've got a very well organized and documented program of testing that demonstrates we don't have ISA in our fish, but the capture fishery doesn't have the same," she said. "There's some serious potential implications here, and no ISA has been found."

 

>From the Minister of Fisheries Keith Ashfield:

 

"After Canada's reputation has needlessly been put at risk over the past several weeks because of speculation and unfounded science, additional in-depth, conclusive tests, using proper and internationally recognized procedures, are now complete and we can confirm that there has never been a confirmed case of ISA in BC salmon, wild or farmed...Canada's current practices and procedures to protect our wild and farmed salmon industries from disease are in place and working; that is why we can be proud of all aspects of the Canadian fishing industry, which is recognized worldwide as a leader in the production of high-quality, safe and sustainable seafood."

 

From Willie Mitchell in a submission to the Cohen Commission:

 

"Aquaculture related pathogens adversely affect wild salmon. It is not just science, it is common sense. Please allow the leaked 2004 DFO draft manuscript to be submitted showing ISA was identified eight years ago in Coho, Pink and Sockeye by the DFO itself."

 

And from Alexandra Morton in her blog today:

 

"If the leaked document really says 100% of one run of Fraser sockeye tested positive for ISA virus, we have two very big problems. One, Justice Cohen instructed DFO to provide all documents relevant to the health of the Fraser sockeye and this was not one of them. Two it means we are repeatedly finding this virus in wild salmon stocks that are mysteriously vanishing, such as Rivers Inlet sockeye and salmon dying of unknown causes just before spawning."

 

 

Note that on 15th, 16th and 19th December there will be an ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission with witnesses including Dr Fred Kibenge, Dr Kristi Miller, Dr Are Nylund and Dr Simon Jones - details online here

 

 

Read the leaked Canadian Government report detailing over 100 positive tests for ISA in farmed Atlantic and wild Pacific salmon – online via 'Fishyleaks

 

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast - online here

 

Read the Norwegian laboratory report on the 6th and 7th positive tests for ISA in Fraser River coho and sockeye – online here

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia"

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 03, 2011, 04:27:53 PM
3 - Every hatchery should contact me about how they can test for ISA virus, because I know all those volunteers do not want to amplify this virus. I know you have been told not to give me samples, but I can help you do this yourself.
I could have commented on nearly all her statements but this is the one I liked the best :D
Wonder how many DFO hatcheries will ask for her assistance?  any guesses???
Nice stuff Chris ...
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 03, 2011, 05:22:50 PM

Quote
Wonder how many DFO hatcheries will ask for her assistance?

My guess is a big fat ZERO.  Why do I guess this.  Because I think most hatchery workers are well informed on the practices of Morton and will treat her like the activist she is.  Not a biologist. 

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 03, 2011, 05:51:23 PM
D & A  remember this? ??? ::)


 Fisheries biologist ends testimony but still cannot speak freely in public
  By Gordon Hoekstra, Vancouver Sun August 25, 2011   •Story•Photos ( 1 )
  Department of Fisheries and Oceans head of molecular genetics Dr. Kristi Miller (left) and DFO research scientist Dr. Kyle Garver (second from right facing) during a morning break at the Cohen Commission of Inquiry into the Decline of Sockeye Salmon in the Fraser River, in Vancouver, BC Wednesday, August 24, 2011.Photograph by: Jason Payne, PNGVANCOUVER -- Fisheries geneticist Kristi Miller's much-anticipated testimony at the Cohen Commission ended Thursday, but she still cannot speak freely in public about her research which discovered a new virus may be a factor in the declining Fraser River sockeye.

Miller was ushered to the elevator of the federal court building in downtown Vancouver by two burly guards after her day and a half of testimony ended at lunch Thursday. Asked by reporters if she could answer questions as she stepped into the elevator in front of the guards, Miller did not respond.

Asked if she was glad her testimony was over, she simply smiled and nodded.

Department of Fisheries and Oceans spokesman Tom Robbins said Miller would not be available for interviews while the hearings are underway. But even when the hearings are complete at the end of September, Robbins was not certain whether the ban would be lifted.

"I think she's being silenced," said Alexandra Morton, an environmentalist and participant in the hearings who believes that salmon farms are playing a significant role in the demise of the sockeye.

Miller and her colleague's work was first published in the prestigious journal Science last January, but she has not been allowed to talk about the research publicly under orders from the federal government's Privy Council Office, which works closely with the Prime Minister's Office.

Miller had earlier testified the Department of Fisheries and Oceans did not prevent her from talking to other scientists or publishing her work on possible factors that could be harming sockeye, but she was told she could not talk publicly about her work until she first presented her testimony at the inquiry

On Thursday, under cross-examination by Conservation Coalition lawyer Tim Leadem, Miller stressed she was frustrated she was not allowed to speak publicly about her research. "This is why I put up resistance," Miller, DFO head of molecular genetics, told the inquiry.

Miller also elaborated on her bold statement yesterday the newly discovered virus could be the "smoking gun" that explains the declining sockeye returns to the Fraser River. "I actually had no intent of saying that [smoking gun] in this hearing. I was a little backed into the corner on that one," said Miller, who made the statement late in the day after extensive questioning.

She said she agrees with other scientists there are other factors at work in the environment that could explain declining sockeye, including availability of food, sea lice and water temperatures. "What I meant was this could be a major factor, not the major factor," said Miller.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper called the inquiry after sockeye returns to the Fraser River collapsed in 2009, falling to about 1.5 million from an anticipated 10 million.

Everything from climate change, disease, sea lice from salmon farms, toxic algae blooms and a lack of food in the ocean have been cited as factors.

However, scientists have not been able to pinpoint explicitly why the sockeye stocks have been declining in the past 20 years.

ghoekstra@vancouversun.com


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Fisheries+biologist+ends+testimony+still+cannot+speak+freely+public/5308116/story.html#ixzz1fWhsQZVo
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 03, 2011, 10:10:10 PM
I could have commented on nearly all her statements but this is the one I liked the best :D
Wonder how many DFO hatcheries will ask for her assistance?  any guesses???
Nice stuff Chris ...

Asking for Morton's assistance is in this case is like asking Bernie Madoff to look after your finances.

I am sure Wal-Mart has been selling quite a bit of equipment for Morton's sampling.   Probably sold out of the plastic cutting boards, paring knives and Hanna Montana lunch coolers. Yeah...some quality working getting done...lol.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 03, 2011, 10:31:53 PM
Chris, this news is about 3 months old  ::)  and I don't really understand your point but since you mention it, during that 3 month period Ms. Morton has embarrassed herself and her supporters many times and has lost more of what credibility she ever had.
You are following this closely so I don't have to supply examples but think yellow pinks, poor sampling techniques, poorly advised press conferences, misinformed blogs ...
G'night
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 04, 2011, 07:47:28 AM
Asking for Morton's assistance is in this case is like asking Bernie Madoff to look after your finances.

I am sure Wal-Mart has been selling quite a bit of equipment for Morton's sampling.   Probably sold out of the plastic cutting boards, paring knives and Hanna Montana lunch coolers. Yeah...some quality working getting done...lol.

Anyone making a statement like that obviously knows very little about finance....

A typical trait of a loser is to stop defending their own position (usually because it is weak) and then attempts to belittle and discredit the opponent. If you'd like to participate in the discussion, the least you can do is add something of value.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 04, 2011, 09:06:21 AM
A typical trait of a loser is to stop defending their own position (usually because it is weak) and then attempts to belittle and discredit the opponent

Isn't that precisely what you have done?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 04, 2011, 01:26:48 PM
A typical trait of a loser is to stop defending their own position (usually because it is weak) and then attempts to belittle and discredit the opponent

Isn't that precisely what you have done?

No it isn't.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on December 04, 2011, 02:35:43 PM
No worries absolon, she's only got about 5 minutes of her 15 minutes of fame left anyways. ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 05, 2011, 12:51:39 PM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Editorial: Something fishy about Canada’s response to salmon virus" (News Tribune, 5th December): http://blog.thenewstribune.com/opinion/2011/12/04/something-fishy-about-canadas-response-to-salmon-virus/

 

"Chile investigates ISA" (Intrafish, 5th December): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1262275.ece

 

"Scientists amp up ISA surveillance in North Pacific" (Intrafish, 5th December): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1262277.ece

 

"New suspect site of ISA virus: the National Fisheries Service (Sernapesca) has detected a new suspect site of a virulent strain of the ISA virus (HPR7b) in the 11th Region (Aysén)" (Fish Farming Xpert, 5th December): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93278

 

"Leroy farm struck by PD: Group considers whether to slaughter biomass after tests confirm presence of pancreatic disease in salmon pen" (Intrafish, 5th December): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1262282.ece

 

"Halting federal funding of GE salmon" (Press Democrat, 5th December): http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20111205/OPINION/111209858/1010/sports?Title=GUEST-OPINION-Halting-federal-funding-of-GE-salmon

 

"Food agency’s handling of salmon-virus scare commendable" (The Globe & Mail, 5th December): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/mark-hume/food-agencys-handling-of-salmon-virus-scare-commendable/article2259718/

 

"Additional in-depth test results show no signs of ISA in BC - a technical briefing has confirmed BC's salmon farming is free from ISA" (FIS, 5th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&country=0&special=&monthyear=&day=&id=48184&ndb=1&df=0

 

"Salmon farm maps made public" (FIS, 5th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=5&id=48166&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Discovery of deadly salmon virus devolves into “salmongate?  Did Canada cover up the emergence of Atlantic salmon virus on the Pacific Coast for nine years?”" (The Wildlife News, 4th December): http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2011/12/04/discovery-of-deadly-salmon-virus-devolves-into-salmongate/ 

 

"No virus in salmon: Canada's claim needs U.S. verification" (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 3rd December): http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/No-virus-in-salmon-Canada-s-claim-needs-U-S-2341209.php   

 

"Sick salmon?  Fish farming critic tests BC waters for infectious salmon virus" (CFJC TV, 3rd December): http://cfjctv.com/story.php?id=5938

 

 

Including an Editorial in today's News Tribune:

 

"From the outside, at least, it appears that Fisheries and Oceans Canada favored promotion of salmon farms over protecting wild stocks – and communicating with their U.S. counterparts.  Given the fact that so many American fishery jobs could be impacted, Canadian officials have an obligation to share all the information from 2002 and to be more forthcoming in the future with research findings that affect Pacific Northwest fish"

 

From Joel Connelly in The Seattle Post-Intelligencer:

 

"When President Obama meets Prime Minister Stephen Harper next Wednesday, the U.S. should ask for: a) immediate creation of an international evaluation board consisting of governments, fishers and Native groups; b) testing of salmon up and down the West Coast, in waters of both countries; and c) unrestricted testing by scientists of sample fish taken from salmon farms.

 

"No agency can promote fish farming -- not regulate, promote -- and at the same time safeguard wild salmon. It is clear that when push comes to shove, it's the salmon-farming industry that wins," said Alexandra Morton, a marine biologist who has incurred DFO's wrath for challenging the department's ties to the industry"

 

And from CFJC TV on Friday:

 

"Fish farming critic, Alexandra Morton, is testing BC rivers for a salmon virus in north pacific waters which may or may not be present.  Morton says she has tested 15 rivers for infectious salmon anaemia and is sending her samples to labs in Prince Edward Island and Norway"

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: swimmingwiththefishes on December 05, 2011, 11:37:21 PM
I agree with Chris. Can't deny the facts. Millions of salmon are in open-net pens pooping into big piles on the ocean floor. This has an effect on salmon, and without it being a stretch, which is probably not a good thing for wild salmon.  And this site is funny...

http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/

Tom
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 06, 2011, 08:04:19 AM
I agree with Chris. Can't deny the facts.
What facts are being denied? If you're concerned about fish defecating in the ocean, how do you feel about pig, cow and chicken manure being spread on fields in the Fraser Valley or Victoria's sewage disposal system ?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 06, 2011, 08:55:17 AM
What facts are being denied? If you're concerned about fish defecating in the ocean, how do you feel about pig, cow and chicken manure being spread on fields in the Fraser Valley or Victoria's sewage disposal system ?

Great argument Dave.   ???  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 06, 2011, 08:39:17 PM
Anyone making a statement like that obviously knows very little about finance....

A typical trait of a loser is to stop defending their own position (usually because it is weak) and then attempts to belittle and discredit the opponent. If you'd like to participate in the discussion, the least you can do is add something of value.


Here is something of value for you, but it really doesn't matter anyway because all you want to hear is how wonderful Morton is.  Sorry for being a party pooper.

I realize that Morton's sampling techniques must be a real sore spot for you, so I can understand your frustration.  Actually what I have said is not that far from the truth when you consider what some of these people are using for sampling equipment and techniques.  Don't take my word for it - these “Superheroes for Salmon” have all their exploits on YouTube where they openly show how incompetent they are while sampling these salmon boots.  In addition, they have a manual on how to sample – put out by someone who does not know what they are doing either.  Meanwhile, anti-fish farm bloggers on this site and others like it continue to gobble this up and preach it like it is the gosphel – not even questioning the validity of the methodology used by these individuals.

Secondly, Alexandra Morton and Don Staniford, who have no idea what they are doing when it comes to tissue sampling and investigating viruses, have the audacity to criticize people that actually do this type of sampling for a living.  If this was someone at the Pacific Biological Station that did this sloppy field sampling the public would be outraged, but if it was from these “Superheroes for Salmon” it seems like it is alright because they are “removed from government influence”.  This is a typical lame excuse that is constantly used to defend actions of Morton and Staniford.  Critics like Morton have been belittling government biologists and technicians recently, so why should she not be held to the fire for her own incompetence?  You might want to start questioning the information you are obtaining from her and her closest followers, like Don Staniford, instead of just welcoming it with open arms and asking no questions.  If these tissue samples were of such poor quality why were conclusions drawn from them in October with premature accusations made against the BC salmon farming industry.  Even Dr. Routledge admitted afterwards that his preservation methods were not optimal and that more stringent testing was needed.  Start questioning instead of just taking what these people say at face value.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 07, 2011, 10:17:23 AM
New study shows eco-labels fail to measure up
December 7, 2011 Leave a Comment

Environmental standards for farm-raised seafood often fall short
WASHINGTON — A new report released today by the University of Victoria ranks eco-labels intended to distinguish seafood produced with less damage to the environment. It is the first study to evaluate how eco-labels for farmed marine fish compare to unlabeled options in the marketplace.

"How Green is Your Eco-label?" is designed to help seafood buyers sort through competing sustainability claims and better identify those labels that result in farming methods with less damage to the ocean. Key findings include:

■"Organic" labels lead the pack, although a few fall noticeably short;
■Many eco-labels are not much better than conventional farmed seafood options when it comes to protecting the ocean environment;
■Scale is a big challenge for eco-labels: For the most part, eco-labels are awarded based on an individual farm’s environmental footprint. However, the cumulative environmental effects of many farms can quickly overwhelm the benefits of reductions in impacts by a single farm or small group of certified farms.
"Our research shows that most eco-labels for farmed marine fish offer no more than a 10 percent improvement over the status quo," said John Volpe, Ph.D., a marine ecologist at the University of Victoria and lead author of the report. "With the exception of a few outstanding examples, one-third of the eco-labels evaluated for these fish utilize standards at the same level or below what we consider to be conventional or average practice in the industry."

Supported by the Pew Environment Group, the study, which was reviewed by several independent experts, uses a well-established quantitative methodology derived from the 2010 Global Aquaculture Performance Index (http://www.gapi.ca) to determine numerical scores of environmental performance for 20 different eco-labels for farmed marine finfish, such as salmon, cod, turbot, and grouper. These scores were used to rank performance among the various eco-labels. The assessment did not look at eco-labels for freshwater farmed fish, such as tilapia or catfish.

The authors used 10 environmental factors to assess the eco-labels, including antibiotic use, the ecological effect of farmed fish that escape from pens, sustainability of the fish that serve as feed, parasiticide use, and industrial energy needed in aquaculture production.

"Eco-labels can help fish farmers produce and consumers select environmentally preferable seafood, but only if the labels are based on meaningful standards that are enforced," said Chris Mann, director of Pew’s Aquaculture Standards Project. "Seafood buyers at the retail or wholesale level should demand that evidence of sustainability be demonstrated, not merely asserted."

The report concludes that government policies and regulations, as well as effective eco-labels, are necessary to limit the environmental impacts of production.

###

The Pew Environment Group is the conservation arm of The Pew Charitable Trusts, a non-governmental organization that works globally to establish pragmatic, science-based policies that protect our oceans, preserve our wildlands, and promote clean energy. http://www.PewEnvironment.org

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 07, 2011, 02:08:37 PM
I wonder why an American foundation running on funds donated by the beneficiaries of the Sun Oil Co (Sunoco) fortune is financing a study into the validity of environmental labeling on farmed fish in Canada? What possible benefit justifies the investment of money and time?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 07, 2011, 05:10:17 PM
Virus causing cardiomyopathy syndrome (CMS) of Atlantic salmon identified
Norway: Pharmaq and the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science have identified the Pharmaq and the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science have identified the virus causing CMS of salmon.


Through this discovery more tools will become available that will make it possible to control the disease and limit the spread and the impact of the disease. PHARMAQ will explore the possibilities for developing a vaccine against CMS, a disease which currently results in significant losses for the aquaculture industry.

Cardiomyopathy syndrome of Atlantic salmon was first recorded in the mid 80’s in Norway. Economic losses are high since primarily fish at slaughter size die.

The virus was discovered through a close research collaboration between Pharmaq with project manager Marit Rode, and Professor Øystein Evensen and his research group at the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science.

- This is a result of a close and productive collaboration over many years, say the two scientists. The research program was partly funded by the Research Council of Norway.

Pål Nilsen and Dr Karine Lindmo were the main scientists at Pharmaq while Drs. Øyvind Haugland and Aase B. Mikalsen were the two scientists with strongest involvement at the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science. The focus has been to characterize the virus and study the host-pathogen interaction and development of disease.

- We have identified a new and until now unknown virus of fish and part of the genome show resemblance with viruses of the family Totiviridae, says Øyvind Haugland, and he continues: The fact that such a virus has not been described in fish before is by itself interesting, but also challenging scientifically. A related virus has earlier been identified as the cause of myonecrosis of white shrimp, but no virus of this family has been isolated from a vertebrate species before.

- Experimental challenge based on virus grown in cell culture results in pathological changes of the heart typical of CMS. Fish injected with the virus as well as cohabiting fish (with those injected) develop typical CMS changes, say Drs. Marit Rode and Øystein Evensen. The virus can be detected in the heart of clinically diseased fish and the amount of virus correlates with heart lesions.

Additional CMS research is carried out as part of a large CMS-consortium where academic and commercial partners have joined forces, including partners like Marine Harvest, AquaGen, Pharmaq, Lerøy Seafood, the National Veterinary Institute, Nofima Marine, the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, NIFES, and Ewos Innovation. This work is co-funded by the Research Council of Norway, and the Fisheries Research Fund. The result from this collaboration will also provide applied knowledge to the aquaculture industry.

CMS has been recorded along the entire Norwegian coast, and the disease was reported from 79 different locations in 2009, close to what has been reported from previous years. The disease shows clinical manifestation throughout the year, peaking in the late fall and late winter/early spring. Accumulated mortality (by site) has been reported at 6%. CMS has also been recorded in the Faroe Islands and in Scotland.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 07, 2011, 05:59:27 PM
Virus causing cardiomyopathy syndrome (CMS) of Atlantic salmon identified
Norway: Pharmaq and the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science have identified the Pharmaq and the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science have identified the virus causing CMS of salmon.


Through this discovery more tools will become available that will make it possible to control the disease and limit the spread and the impact of the disease. PHARMAQ will explore the possibilities for developing a vaccine against CMS, a disease which currently results in significant losses for the aquaculture industry.

Cardiomyopathy syndrome of Atlantic salmon was first recorded in the mid 80’s in Norway. Economic losses are high since primarily fish at slaughter size die.

The virus was discovered through a close research collaboration between Pharmaq with project manager Marit Rode, and Professor Øystein Evensen and his research group at the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science.

- This is a result of a close and productive collaboration over many years, say the two scientists. The research program was partly funded by the Research Council of Norway.

Pål Nilsen and Dr Karine Lindmo were the main scientists at Pharmaq while Drs. Øyvind Haugland and Aase B. Mikalsen were the two scientists with strongest involvement at the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science. The focus has been to characterize the virus and study the host-pathogen interaction and development of disease.

- We have identified a new and until now unknown virus of fish and part of the genome show resemblance with viruses of the family Totiviridae, says Øyvind Haugland, and he continues: The fact that such a virus has not been described in fish before is by itself interesting, but also challenging scientifically. A related virus has earlier been identified as the cause of myonecrosis of white shrimp, but no virus of this family has been isolated from a vertebrate species before.

- Experimental challenge based on virus grown in cell culture results in pathological changes of the heart typical of CMS. Fish injected with the virus as well as cohabiting fish (with those injected) develop typical CMS changes, say Drs. Marit Rode and Øystein Evensen. The virus can be detected in the heart of clinically diseased fish and the amount of virus correlates with heart lesions.

Additional CMS research is carried out as part of a large CMS-consortium where academic and commercial partners have joined forces, including partners like Marine Harvest, AquaGen, Pharmaq, Lerøy Seafood, the National Veterinary Institute, Nofima Marine, the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, NIFES, and Ewos Innovation. This work is co-funded by the Research Council of Norway, and the Fisheries Research Fund. The result from this collaboration will also provide applied knowledge to the aquaculture industry.

CMS has been recorded along the entire Norwegian coast, and the disease was reported from 79 different locations in 2009, close to what has been reported from previous years. The disease shows clinical manifestation throughout the year, peaking in the late fall and late winter/early spring. Accumulated mortality (by site) has been reported at 6%. CMS has also been recorded in the Faroe Islands and in Scotland.
Well thanks Chris, I guess.  Does this have relevence to our discussion topic?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 07, 2011, 06:25:44 PM
Well thanks Chris, I guess.  Does this have relevence to our discussion topic?

Just showing another example of how the salmon cages are a variety store for diseases, waiting to kill the wild salmon.   :(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 07, 2011, 07:14:15 PM
Quote
Just showing another example of how the salmon cages are a variety store for diseases, waiting to kill the wild salmon.   

While salmon farms do concentrate  fish populations  in locations, to state that Farms are a primary  vector for disease transfer etc, in the ocean is quite miss leading. If the farms were not there, any disease present  will be transferred quite adequately from natural populations of herring, pilchards, salmon, sticklebacks, rock fish, octi, starfish...the list goes on and on.  Please go on google earth and see for yourselves the size of the farms in comparison to the surrounding area.  I think you will be surprised to see that it is very little.  While the google earth photos do not show area's with high densities of herring if it did, at times, I am sure it would show massive areas of coverage in comparison.  There is just to much life and current to say the salmon farms accelerate disease my any measurable amount. IMO

Quote
Well thanks Chris, I guess.  Does this have relevence to our discussion topic?

It does break up the discussion quit a bit.  It is quite distracting.  Heck,  why not squeeze in 10hours of reading here and there to break up the conversation and distract from the issue the thread is about.  He does seem to have his own "news" threads some times but I notice the his posting traffic is shifty and I think he should just stick to his "more news" threads instead of interrupting things here.  It doesn't happen on other threads why does it happen here?  I would like to hear more from him but he seems to be hidden behind all his headlines somewhere.  Doing what he does I guess.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 07, 2011, 09:42:05 PM
While salmon farms do concentrate  fish populations  in locations, to state that Farms are a primary  vector for disease transfer etc, in the ocean is quite miss leading. If the farms were not there, any disease present  will be transferred quite adequately from natural populations of herring, pilchards, salmon, sticklebacks, rock fish, octi, starfish...the list goes on and on.  Please go on google earth and see for yourselves the size of the farms in comparison to the surrounding area.  I think you will be surprised to see that it is very little.  While the google earth photos do not show area's with high densities of herring if it did, at times, I am sure it would show massive areas of coverage in comparison.  There is just to much life and current to say the salmon farms accelerate disease my any measurable amount. IMO

It does break up the discussion quit a bit.  It is quite distracting.  Heck,  why not squeeze in 10hours of reading here and there to break up the conversation and distract from the issue the thread is about.  He does seem to have his own "news" threads some times but I notice the his posting traffic is shifty and I think he should just stick to his "more news" threads instead of interrupting things here.  It doesn't happen on other threads why does it happen here?  I would like to hear more from him but he seems to be hidden behind all his headlines somewhere.  Doing what he does I guess.
This should make you happy, 10 hours more to read and pick apart. ;D ;D ;D

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 07, 2011, 10:26:29 PM
LOL. It sure doesn't take ten hours to get through and pick apart Morton's mutterings.

It's funny she doesn't mention the most recent events at the Inquiry where her good friend Justice Cohen has banned her from possessing any of the documents supplied as exhibits and prohibited her from even viewing them except in the presence of a lawyer. It appears he has decided she can't be trusted after she and her pal, "Activist for hire" Don Staniford, released documents to the NewYork Times in violation of her oath of confidentiality.

Here's some great shots of the dynamic duo at work, saving the world from fish farms.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/blog/anti-fish-farming-activist-alexandra-morton-and-protestor-hire-don-staniford-campbell-river (http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/blog/anti-fish-farming-activist-alexandra-morton-and-protestor-hire-don-staniford-campbell-river)

Note that world class sampling technique. Just like a real scientist.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 07, 2011, 11:02:03 PM
Not much for me to pick apart.  I will leave that to real biologists.  She is only a anti- salmon farmer campaigning under the flag of saving wild salmon.  I think it would be cool if she would dress up more often like here dedicated Scottish sidekick Stanford in a super hero suit and/or condom out fit.  Would seem more appropriate to me.

Here is one full of fear mongering and false info with the cool outfits.  But where is Morton??  She NEVER dresses up and I think she should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSL8fUb8OIY&feature=related  

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 08, 2011, 01:22:54 PM
Perhaps some salmonid ID courses would help a bit too.  About 3/4 way through there is a fish photo with a #11 tag on it that is identified as a coho.  Having seen thousands and sampled hundreds of Weaver Creek and Harrison River sockeye, that's what I'm calling it.  Now just seeing the head isn't quite enough for me to bet the farm but I would wager a bottle of Scotch that fish is not a coho.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 08, 2011, 04:22:15 PM
More, please find enclosed a press update including:                    

 

"Debating Genetically Modified Salmon" (Science Friday, 9th December): http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201112095

 

"Tribute to the movement to protect wild salmon from farm salmon" (Alexandra Morton, 8th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/tribute-to-the-movement-to-protect-wild-salmon-from-farm-salmon.html

 

"Environmental Claims For Farmed Fish Don't Hold Up To Scrutiny" (NPR, 8th December): http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2011/12/08/143304753/environmental-claims-for-farmed-fish-dont-hold-up-to-scrutiny

 

"Cohen Commission is delaying progress for aquaculture: DFO" (FIS, 8th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=8&id=48302&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Eco-labelled farmed fish not much better than regular farmed: report" (FIS, 8th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=8&id=48295&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"What we know about ISA virus in British Columbia" (Alexandra Morton, 7th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/what-we-know-about-isa-virus-in-british-columbia.html

 

"Alexandra Morton and Dale Kelley talk about ISA in British Columbia" (Coop, 7th December): http://www.coopradio.org/station/archives/35

 

""DFO says Cohen Commission to blame for delay”… nothing like half-facts to assist in denial… One more disconnection notice for DFO and salmon farmers" (The Salmon Guy, 7th December): http://www.salmonguy.org/?p=4637

 

"Supply of sustainably-farmed salmon fails to meet demand" (iPolitics, 7th December): http://www.ipolitics.ca/2011/12/07/supply-of-sustainably-farmed-salmon-fails-to-meet-demand/  

 

"Study finds something fishy about eco-labels on seafood" (Canoe, 7th December): http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Environment/2011/12/07/19089101.html

 

"Costa Rica halts tuna farm in Golfo Dulce" (Surfer Today, 7th December): http://www.surfertoday.com/environment/6534-costa-rica-halts-tuna-farm-in-golfo-dulce

 

"Aquaculture: How green is your farmed fish?" (Earth Times, 7th December): http://www.earthtimes.org/going-green/how-green-farmed-fish/1689/

 

"Report questions quality of farmed fish eco-labels: Most eco-labeled farmed fish are no more than a 10% improvement over non-labeled counterpart, Pew-backed report shows" (Intrafish, 7th December): www.intrafish.com

 

"New report ranks farmed finfish eco-labels" (Seafood Source, 7th December): http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=13212

 

 

Including from The Salmon Guy:

 

"Maybe time for another disconnection notice for salmon farmers and DFO…?"

 

From Alexandra Morton:

 

"I am not allowed to comment at the moment about the DFO paper reported widely in the media. I have written this posting because the government of Canada has not included crucial information regarding fresh, high-quality samples from the Fraser River that have tested positive in recent weeks..... There is history of political and industry resistance to positive ISAv diagnosis in new regions. The BCMAL minister’s comments that he reported BC’s ISAv-free status to China seems premature and an indication that this is a serious trade barrier issue. But we have to ask – why wouldn’t we want to know if ISAv is here?"

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 09, 2011, 09:19:43 AM
It's funny she doesn't mention the most recent events at the Inquiry where her good friend Justice Cohen has banned her from possessing any of the documents supplied as exhibits and prohibited her from even viewing them except in the presence of a lawyer. It appears he has decided she can't be trusted after she and her pal, "Activist for hire" Don Staniford, released documents to the NewYork Times in violation of her oath of confidentiality.
Just read Justice Cohen's ruling on that issue. Wow, Morton and Staniford set a new low. There's no justification for that kind of contempt and arrogance....absolutely none.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 09, 2011, 08:24:31 PM
Just read Justice Cohen's ruling on that issue. Wow, Morton and Staniford set a new low. There's no justification for that kind of contempt and arrogance....absolutely none.

The real contempt and arrogance seems to be coming from DFO withholding information on the ISA virus......
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 11, 2011, 08:31:19 AM
Disagreement over salmon virus in Canada
Activist scientist finds virus in fish, Canadian government does not Posted: December 11, 2011 - 12:19am
Disagreement over salmon virus in Canada
JUNEAU EMPIRE
An independent British Columbia researcher is accusing the Canadian government of covering up years of positive tests for the potentially deadly Infectious Salmon Anemia virus.

“Fish disease has become a federal secret in Canada,” fish researcher Dr. Alexandra Morton said. “I believe it is because it is everywhere and no one wants to admit it.”

Canadian officials have refuted Morton’s claims.

In a letter to Fisheries and Oceans Canada Minister Keith Ashfield, Morton said the Canadian government’s lack of action has failed its constituency.

“This has unacceptable biological, economic, international and market implications,” Morton said. “So we have stepped into the void you created. We will form a plan when all our results are in and we will give you direction in the New Year. Salmon diseases are no longer a federal secret. We will protect our fish. We are not going to beg help from you any longer.”

Dr. Gary Marty with the Canada Food Inspection Agency, the researcher who did the most recent ISAv test for the Canadian government, said Morton is not qualified to make the interpretations she does.

“She does not have advanced training in medicine or pathology,” he said. However, Marty said, he does have respect for “her powers of observation.”

“When she records something, I can use that, and helps me understand what is going on,” he said.

 

Activist scientist sounds the alarm

Morton is a researcher with the Raincoast Research Society. In her decades-long career as an activist scientist she has studied algal blooms and sea lice in BC waters and fought to end fish farms’ use of acoustic deterrence on sea mammals, including orca whales. Simon Fraser University awarded Morton and honorary doctorate of science.

Her 10-year-long study of sea lice, she said, prepared her for the ISAv fight. She said at first the Canadian government denied the sea lice problem. “Now it is very clear,” she said. So when she hears the government’s current denials of ISAv she said she believes she is seeing the same thing.

Recently Morton traveled to BC’s Fraser River, the site of a massive salmon collapse in 2009, to collect salmon samples to test for the virus. (The recent ISA scare prompted a commission looking into the Fraser River salmon collapse to reopen its investigation for three days in December to look into the possible role the virus may have had in the collapse. Find out more at www.cohencommission .ca)

Fraser River is located 600 kilometers south of River’s Inlet, the site where researchers found two sockeye salmon smolt in October that were suspected to carry the virus and possibly exhibiting signs of the disease.

Morton collected 10 salmon at Fraser River that had died before spawning. She sent the fresh samples to independent labs for testing.

“We found [the virus] in the heart of one of the coho and in the gills of a 25 pound king salmon,” Morton said. “This salmon was yellow.” She said she also found the virus in the gills of a chum salmon, and later in a sockeye.

“So far I’ve only got a positive test in salmon that have died before spawning, so you can’t call them healthy fish,” Morton said.

Morton sent her samples to independent testing facilities in Prince Edward Island, Canada, and Oslo, Norway. “I picked these labs because they are good at what they do,” Morton said. She said the scientists who tested her samples have received push back since releasing the results.

Morton said the Canadian government won’t acknowledge the results from the test she commissioned. Her explanation is not flattering to Canada’s leaders.

Morton said conflicting commercial interests may make the Canadian government hesitant to address the situation openly.

In Canada wild salmon are “in the way” of hydroelectric dams, resource development and fish farms, she said. Therefore, Morton said, she doesn’t think the government has much reason or impetus to respond. “Really, Canadian fish are dying due to a lack of political will,” she said.

 

Previous test by a post-graduate student researcher wasn’t published

This is not the first time a researcher has found the virus in Canada’s salmon. A post-graduate student named Molly Kibenge studied hundreds of salmon for the virus in 2004. Her results found 115 positive results for the virus in Pacific salmon out of a sample size of 460. The virus was found in 36 out of 116 chinook salmon tested, 15 out of 88 pink salmon and 64 out of 103 sockeye salmon. The test has been called into question because all 64 of the sockeye that tested positive came from the same location. The virus was also found in one Atlantic salmon out of a sample size of two.

Kibenge’s finding were initially not published.

However, with the recent possible instance of the virus, Kibenge asked Canadian officials to publish her original findings.

Her request was turned down due to ongoing tests and an ongoing inquiry into the Fraser River salmon collapse called the Cohen Commission, according to Dr. Simon Jones, Aquatic Animal Health Station.

“I will wait to hear the outcome of these processes before further discussion on a 7-year-old manuscript, Jones said.

Some of Kibenge’s results have been confirmed by the Atlantic Veterinarian College, according to Morton.

The most recent flare-up of public interest into the virus stated in October of this year when the virus may have been detected in two juvenile sockeye salmon north of Vancouver Island at Rivers Inlet which empties into Queen Charlotte Sound.

Several species of salmon and trout can carry the deadly virus without showing symptoms, according to a report by Iowa State’s Center for Food Security and Public Health.

Infected fish are highly contagious, whether wild of farmed, and can transmit the disease to and between Atlantic salmon with devastating effects. The disease, also known as hemorrhagic kidney syndrome, can be difficult to detect in fish farms and can cause nearly 100 percent mortality. There is no treatment.

Although Pacific salmon may carry the virus without mortal effects, it is possible for a virus to undergo deadly mutations. The report’s authors compared this to outbreaks of highly virulent strains of avian influenza. ISA virus does not transmit to humans.

The 48 salmon smolt tested did not show signs of disease, said Dr. Ted Meyers, Chief Pathologist for Alaska Department of Fish and Game in an earlier interview. They were collected for routine stomach analysis, he said. The test for infectious salmon anemia was secondary. “We are concerned and we want to see further testing, but it is an Atlantic virus and Pacific salmon are resistant to this virus. So it is not time to panic,” Meyers said.

Since that interview the Canadian government has conducted further tests. Researchers at the Canada Food Inspection Agency reported they did not find any sign of ISA virus in these tests.

“The virus is widely reported in Atlantic salmon stocks in Norway, so there is no reason it would not have come into BC in the tens of millions of eggs imported, Morton said. Unless we are very smart about this, use everything known and act wisely, we will pay the price,” she said.

Both Morton and Canadian officials are bewildered by the others’ findings.

The Canada Food Inspection Agency has not had a single positive test for the virus in over 7,000 tests in the last decade including 1,600 in 2011, much of which came in the last couple months.

“Yet,” Morton said “I’m finding it all over the place.”

Morton believes the lack of government findings is due to the testing procedure it uses. “If it mutates a little you won’t be able to detect the virus,” she said.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 11, 2011, 08:33:44 AM
Continued



Canadian government finds no virus

Marty, the Canada Food Inspection Agency researcher, said Morton’s claims are off base. He uses as an example Morton’s claim that the 2,000 “classic ISAv” lesions — Marty says it is closer to 1,300 — found in Department of Fish and Oceans routine salmon testing are proof of government incompetence.

He compared Morton’s attribution of the lesions to ISAv to blaming a dry cough on Avian influenza.

“Just because these fish have a common symptom doesn’t mean they have an uncommon, in the Pacific, disease,” Marty said. “What is a very mild change Morton attributes to a severe disease brought on by this virus.”

However, Marty said the finding should not be dismissed. “Some of those are real lesions, something is happening here,” he said.

 

Is it ISAv?

“If [World Organization for Animal Health] can detect it, we should be able to detect it,” Marty said.

Marty also said it is too early to announce the World Organization for Animal Health’s finding.

“What we have is some positive PCR tests,” Marty said. “It’s easy to get a false positive.”

Researchers use the polymerase chain reaction test to detect viruses like ISAv. It is the test Marty used to produce his negative ISAv results. However, Marty said the tests detects “only a very small segment of the entire virus genome — they do not detect the entire genome.”

Therefore a second procedure is needed to sequence a complete genome to determine if the “piece of (genetic material) detected by the test really is the virus as opposed to some other material that also contains the same small piece of (genetic material).

Marty warns that PCR tests are highly sensitive and contamination might occur.

“When I see PCR positive results for a disease not known to be in BC, in a species not known to be susceptible to the disease, and the fish had no clinical signs (or “classic lesions”) of the disease, I suspect that the PCR results are false positives until proven otherwise,” he said.

Marty said researchers need to be cautious with reacting to preliminary findings. There is no cure for salmon anemia and decimation is only option to stop the spread of the disease in Canada’s farmed Atlantic salmon population.

“Some of these farms have millions of stock,” Marty said. “You’d pretty much have to cull them all.”

Fish farmers have learned to live with the virus in recent years.

“When you have well-managed fish populations even when they get really highly virulent forms of ISA it doesn’t‚ result in much mortality.” ISA is kind of like a flu virus and behaves very much like that.

Chile’s production is going back up to its pre-breakout production of Atlantic salmon, Marty said. Norway and Chile control ISA through vaccination.

 

High costs from Chilean outbreak

“Maine spent $8 million unsuccessfully trying to get rid of it. Chile lost $2 billion to ISA virus, recently, some industry insiders say, because they did not act fast enough,” Morton said.

“When I read about Chile I feel like we are marching down the road again.”

In the beginning, they said things like, “Looks like ISA, but we can’t get it in all the tests, and it looks different than Norway.” Nobody was prepared for how fast it spread.”

Morton recommends Alaska test its major rivers and hatcheries for ISAv and put pressure on the Canadian government.

Alaska has an advantage in the ISA fight due to its concerned D.C. Delegation, Morton said.

“Let’s check the hatcheries, let’s check the fish farms, let’s find out what this thing really is and what is going on.”

“I know Alaska a doesn’t want to be an ISA zone,” Morton said. “But it can not ignore it.”

“It’s containable if you catch it before it becomes virulent. If it mutates and starts killing salmon all we can do is sit back and watch it rip through the population,” Morton said. “If we don’t do everything we can, then we deserve what we get.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 11, 2011, 04:48:13 PM
yawn ::)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 11, 2011, 05:16:24 PM
yawn ::)
Better stop reading these Dave and go fishing. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 11, 2011, 08:00:01 PM
I'm thinking you're right Chris ;)  See you out there.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 12, 2011, 11:46:39 AM
Hope to see Dave and others join the march here in Chilliwack on Thursday. ;D ;D ;D


Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Day of Action for Wild Salmon: Dec 14th" (Wilderness Committee, 14th December): http://www.wildernesscommittee.org/victoria/sven/day_action_wild_salmon_dec_14th

 

"Wild Salmon Rally" (Friends of Clayoquot Sound, 13th December): http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/717441/2cc816e692/281512073/69923beea6/

 

"Action Week for Wild Salmon!" (Salmon Are Sacred, 12th December): http://www.salmonaresacred.org/blog/action-week-wild-salmon

 

"Wild Game Fish Conservation International Stresses Importance of healthy wild Pacific salmon" (Wild Game Fish Conservation International, 12th December): http://wgfci.blogspot.com/

 

"Stop Plover Point salmon feedlot" (Friends of Clayoquot Sound, 12th December): http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/717441/e9710d2548/281512073/3e8794167b/

 

"BIOTECH:  Enviro risks of modified salmon leap into spotlight" (E&E News, 12th December): http://www.eenews.net/EEDaily/2011/12/12/7

 

"Disagreement over salmon virus in Canada: Activist scientist finds virus in fish, Canadian government does not" (Juneau Empire, 11th December): http://juneauempire.com/state/2011-12-11/disagreement-over-salmon-virus-canada

 

"Open Letter to Minister Ashfield" (Alexandra Morton, 9th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/open-lett.html

 

"Tensions mounting over truth behind salmon virus controversy" (Cordova Times, 9th December): http://thecordovatimes.com/article/1149tensions_mounting_over_truth_behind_salmon

 

"Q&A on ISA, what we know about ISA in British Columbia" (BC Salmon Farmers Association, 9th December): http://www.salmonfarmers.org/media-releases

 

"Salmon escapes suspected at Marine Harvest, SalMar: More than 100,000 fish could have escaped recently due to the 'Berit' storm that hit Norwegian coast" (Intrafish, 9th December): www.intrafish.com

 

"Debating Genetically Modified Salmon" (NPR, 9th December): http://www.npr.org/2011/12/09/143453487/debating-genetically-modified-salmon

 

"Key documents: Organic seafood does not include farmed Atlantic salmon" (Fish Farm News & Science, 9th December): http://fishfarmnews.blogspot.com/2011/12/key-documents-organic-seafood-does-not.html

 

"Salmon virus scare spreads fear and doubt" (Alberni Valley Times, 9th December): http://www2.canada.com/albernivalleytimes/news/story.html?id=c3591fe5-c962-476e-9a18-74fcc7ce67e9

 

"Tribute to the Wild Salmon People" (Salmon Are Sacred, 8th December): http://www.salmonaresacred.org/blog/tribute-wild-salmon-people

 

"Salmon sector recovery causes optimism among suppliers" (FIS, 8th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=8&id=48294&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Managing for Uncertainty: Pathogens and Diseases in Pacific Salmon" (Simon Fraser University, 7th December): www.sfu.ca/cstudies/science/salmon.php

 

"Norwegian fish better than the EU believed: Norwegian fish contain less inorganic arsenic than the EU thought" (NIFES, 7th December): http://www.nifes.no/index.php?page_id=&article_id=3851&lang_id=2

 

"M&S refute eco-label study" (World Fishing & Aquaculture, 7th December): http://www.worldfishing.net/news101/m-and-s-refute-eco-label-study

 

"BC Salmon" (House of Commons, 5th December): http://www.jameslunneymp.ca/speeches_detail.php?recordID=1052

 

 

Including from Alexandra Morton in an open letter to the Canadian Fisheries Minister, Keith Ashfield:

 

"Mr. Ashfield I keep trying to tell you, we are not fools. Your failure to respond to the early virus warnings echoes what happened to Chile. This has unacceptable biological, economic, international and market implications."

 

From Alexandra Morton quoted in The Juneau Empire:

 

"Fish disease has become a federal secret in Canada.  I believe it is because it is everywhere and no one wants to admit it."

 

From Dr. Gary Marty quoted in The Juneau Empire:

 

"Some of these farms have millions of stock. You’d pretty much have to cull them all."

From from Friends of Clayoquot Sound:

 

"It is time for us to step up and demand that DFO deal with the ISA virus crisis and not approve Plover Point before Justice Cohen has tabled his recommendations next June."

 

And from Wild Game Fish Conservation International:

 

"WGFCI is attending two days of the three-day Cohen Commission special Infectious Salmon Anemia virus (ISAv) hearings in order to impress upon Justice Cohen and Canada’s Department of Fisheries and Oceans the international importance of robust populations of healthy wild Pacific salmon."
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 12, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
Hope ro see Dave and others join the march here in Chilliwack on Thursday. ;D ;D ;D
Ha ha.  not bloody likely ...  can't wait to see if Mr. Strahl is 'away' that day :)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 12, 2011, 01:42:22 PM
Good News! http://www.nifes.no/index.php?page_id=&article_id=3851&lang_id=2 (http://www.nifes.no/index.php?page_id=&article_id=3851&lang_id=2)

Gotta love this statement: “The European Union believed that Norwegian fish contained ten times as much inorganic arsenic as they actually do.

Inorganic arsenic is toxic to humans and may be carcinogenic.


I guess it's good news that you are only eating 1/10th of the toxic, carcinogenic arsenic that you previously thought you were ingesting when you ate some farmed salmon,!  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 12, 2011, 01:44:05 PM
For all the many times the same information is repeated and repackaged in the nonsense presented in Chris' chain letters about whether or not the ISA virus has been found, there still remains that unsupported and unsubstantiated allegation that if it is here, it came from fish farms.

There are two questions here, not one as Alexandra's Rag Time Band and the output of the news wires that service the reactionaries would have you believe. Those issues are the question of presence and the question of origin. It is either intellectually weak or outright dishonest not to recognize the difference; their is no other rationalization. Those who are unable to separate the two issues are either demonstrating their own lack of understanding of the situation, or a dishonesty that parallels Morton's.

The first issue, presence, has so far not been established with any level of scientific rigor and will not be until further testing is completed. The second issue, origin, cannot be established until the first is settled and there are a number of possibilities beyond fish farms. Indeed, the history of testing of farm stocks and the lack of outbreaks on farms would suggest that if the virus is here, it is likelier to be so as a result of one of those other possibilities.

It is all well and good to have ones own beliefs, supported by fact or not, but it is undeniably dishonest to claim one knows that the ISAV is present and that it came from farms given what is known at this time.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 12, 2011, 02:36:54 PM
For all the many times the same information is repeated and repackaged in the nonsense presented in Chris' chain letters about whether or not the ISA virus has been found, there still remains that unsupported and unsubstantiated allegation that if it is here, it came from fish farms.

There are two questions here, not one as Alexandra's Rag Time Band and the output of the news wires that service the reactionaries would have you believe. Those issues are the question of presence and the question of origin. It is either intellectually weak or outright dishonest not to recognize the difference; their is no other rationalization. Those who are unable to separate the two issues are either demonstrating their own lack of understanding of the situation, or a dishonesty that parallels Morton's.

The first issue, presence, has so far not been established with any level of scientific rigor and will not be until further testing is completed. The second issue, origin, cannot be established until the first is settled and there are a number of possibilities beyond fish farms. Indeed, the history of testing of farm stocks and the lack of outbreaks on farms would suggest that if the virus is here, it is likelier to be so as a result of one of those other possibilities.

It is all well and good to have ones own beliefs, supported by fact or not, but it is undeniably dishonest to claim one knows that the ISAV is present and that it came from farms given what is known at this time.


The point you seem to be raising is that Chris and everyone who reads Chris's postings of 3rd party news releases, believe absolutely everything in them.......   ???

I would suggest you are over reacting and making a lot of assumptions in your efforts to defend open net salmon farms.

In spite of all of your posts to the contrary, I can't for a moment accept that you believe the open net farms are not causing harm to the wild salmon and their environment!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 12, 2011, 04:21:33 PM
I said that those chain letters that Chris passes on, I presume to avoid the bad luck that comes from breaking the chain, provide no new information. They are simply the same information endlessly repackaged and served up yet again in hopes of passing off as truth because of repetitive messaging, a well known marketing technique. Most of the individual links are nothing more than rhetorical set pieces based on flights of fancy, not hard fact and none directly related to the ISA situation stand up to critical analysis. I've not said anything about who believes what; indeed I have suggested that it is all well and good to have one's own beliefs regardless of what they are or what they are based on. My only proviso to that statement is that it is dishonest to claim as fact something that is not.

What you can and cannot accept is entirely up to you but I will point out this. I am not defending salmon farms. I am defending rationality, truth and the validity of the scientific process. Morton and cohort are attacking those with twisted truth, distorted logic, and selective information in an organized and well-funded campaign to eliminate fish farms for purposes of their own and their backers. I've been there. I can recognize the dishonesty.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 12, 2011, 05:05:11 PM
What you can and cannot accept is entirely up to you but I will point out this. I am not defending salmon farms. I am defending rationality, truth and the validity of the scientific process. Morton and cohort are attacking those with twisted truth, distorted logic, and selective information in an organized and well-funded campaign to eliminate fish farms for purposes of their own and their backers. I've been there. I can recognize the dishonesty.
Couldn't have said it better myself absolon. ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 12, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
I'd suggest the fish farms and DFO are the ones that have the funding, marketing savey and organizations to convince the public of whatever they want them to believe. They are motivated solely by money. They have no incentives to protect the wild salmon or their environment other than the fear of being caught. Even then the fear is that bad publicity could mean loss of market share (read profits/taxes).

It's amusing to suggest that Morton is in this for the money.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 12, 2011, 06:43:06 PM
I didn't say Morton was in it for the money. Indeed, I specifically separated Morton's objectives from those of her backers as a more careful re-read of my post will make abundantly clear. I have my own suspicions what Morton's motivations are, but I don't think it is necessary that I share that information.

If you gave the matter even the slightest thought, you would realize that nearly all of the revenue earned by farms actually goes to pay the costs of production and that profit is just a fractional component out of which a return must be provided to shareholders and business income taxes paid. Total revenue does not equate to funds available to counter the organized campaign against farms.

I know Morton likes to present herself as an underfunded David taking on Goliath, but that is simply not true. They solicit and collect funds from anyone they can convince to pony up and have funding granted by a number of other sources, none of whom can be said to have pure purpose, as is detailed here. She refuses to reveal an accounting of her sources of funds and how much she raises.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/sites/default/files/Follow%20the%20money%20feature.pdf (http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/sites/default/files/Follow%20the%20money%20feature.pdf)

The following is a record of one of the grants issued by one of the foundations Krause discusses, the US based Gordon and Betty Moore foundation. Actually it is two records, both obtained from the granting foundations own records. The first is the record that appeared before Krause made her research into the funding of the reactionary anti-salmon farm lobby public. The second is what it was changed to once Krause publicized it.. Note that this grant represents just a pittance of the money that has been directed at incapacitating salmon farming. Note also the very deliberate intent of the grant to provide the basis for an organized anti-salmon farm campaign. Everyone "sharing" the chain letters is actually doing so in support of that campaign.

(http://fairquestions.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a65d9a8c970b0147e0ab68ed970b-pi)

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 12, 2011, 06:46:03 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself absolon. ;D
Not sure many could ;)
alwaysfishin, seems to me you're playing with a short stick; you say DFO have no incentive to protect wild salmon - do some research man; check out DFO's Environmental Watch program that collaborates with the best salmonid scientists in North America, the Limnology/Lake studies effort to increase sockeye harvesting opportunities for all users, or a multitude of Stock Assessment programs throughout the Fraser watershed.  Then have a look at the habitat restoration work done on Fraser tribs, and then the economic benefits of it's Salmonid Enhancement Program; hatcheries, spawning channels, community awareness.
People want to eat salmon; there are not enough wild salmon to meet this need and there never will be.  Salmon aquaculture is a necessity and I believe BC is positioned properly to take advantage of this.

Show me some evidence that a salmon farm in BC has impacted wild salmonid productivity. 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 12, 2011, 09:26:32 PM
I didn't say Morton was in it for the money. Indeed, I specifically separated Morton's objectives from those of her backers as a more careful re-read of my post will make abundantly clear. I have my own suspicions what Morton's motivations are, but I don't think it is necessary that I share that information.

If you gave the matter even the slightest thought, you would realize that nearly all of the revenue earned by farms actually goes to pay the costs of production and that profit is just a fractional component out of which a return must be provided to shareholders and business income taxes paid. Total revenue does not equate to funds available to counter the organized campaign against farms.

I know Morton likes to present herself as an underfunded David taking on Goliath, but that is simply not true. They solicit and collect funds from anyone they can convince to pony up and have funding granted by a number of other sources, none of whom can be said to have pure purpose, as is detailed here. She refuses to reveal an accounting of her sources of funds and how much she raises.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/sites/default/files/Follow%20the%20money%20feature.pdf (http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/sites/default/files/Follow%20the%20money%20feature.pdf)

The following is a record of one of the grants issued by one of the foundations Krause discusses, the US based Gordon and Betty Moore foundation. Actually it is two records, both obtained from the granting foundations own records. The first is the record that appeared before Krause made her research into the funding of the reactionary anti-salmon farm lobby public. The second is what it was changed to once Krause publicized it.. Note that this grant represents just a pittance of the money that has been directed at incapacitating salmon farming. Note also the very deliberate intent of the grant to provide the basis for an organized anti-salmon farm campaign. Everyone "sharing" the chain letters is actually doing so in support of that campaign.

(http://fairquestions.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a65d9a8c970b0147e0ab68ed970b-pi)

All non-profit organization's financial records in Canada are public. The last time I looked at Morton's, it showed administrative salaries for her organization totaled less than $100,000 for that year. I don't know how many staff on her payroll, but it's unlikely she does everything alone. I'm guessing she would have made a lot more money if she would have run for the NDP in the last election.

By the way, I have a pretty good understanding of finance. Fish farms currently are not making the profits that they hoped they would be making, and their stock prices reflect that. However if there were less restraints on the expansion of these farms, they would be generating much higher profits, which is their incentive. Governments make less than 1/3 the revenue on company profits as they do on employee taxes. Point being, the more jobs these farms can create (read more farms) the more revenue the government generates.

After doing all the complaining about what Chris posts, I am surprised you would post such nonsense as the .jpg that you posted. It has absolutely nothing to do with Morton, her organization or her fight for wild salmon!  ???

Dave:  DFO (read provincial and federal governments) generate more net revenue from farming salmon in the ocean than they net from managing wild salmon. There is minimal cost associated with government managing fish farms, so the tax revenue they collect is all net revenue. On the other hand after all management costs related to the wild salmon, I doubt there is anything left over from the taxes and license fees they collect. Which probably explains the DFO layoffs announced today.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 12, 2011, 10:48:45 PM
March to Chilliwack MP's office by wild salmon protectors
By Jennifer Feinberg - Chilliwack Progress
Published: December 12, 2011 3:00 PM
Updated: December 12, 2011 4:15 PM

Chilliwack-Fraser Canyon MP Mark Strahl is about to get an earful from wild-salmon advocates if he's in town.



A protest rally at the Coqualeetza site is set for Thursday, Dec. 15 at 11 a.m. on Vedder Road to pressure for the removal of open-net fish pens in the ocean.



Protesters will march from Sto:lo Nation headquarters to Strahl's constituency office, starting from Building #10 at 7201 Vedder Road.



The rally on Thursday morning in Chilliwack is part of a larger B.C.-wide effort where First Nations and other salmon advocates are demanding better protection of wild salmon from federal officials, said one of the organizers, Eddie Gardner.



"Scientists and wild-fish advocates have long feared the arrival of the salmon flu, which is linked to open-net fish pens and has killed millions of salmon in Europe and Chile.



"Today, with growing evidence that an ISA virus exists in B.C. waters, the Canadian government says it poses no threat to Pacific wild salmon, but they cannot possibly know this," Gardner said.



Some of the actions they're lobbying for:



• Immediate viral testing at fish farms;



• Removal of open-net fish farms from Fraser sockeye migration routes; and



• Suspension of DFO mandate to support salmon aquaculture.



Demonstrations were also held this week at (DFO) offices in Tofino, Nanaimo, Victoria, Vancouver and Lillooet to press for an immediate government response to the alleged detection of Infectious Salmon Anemia virus (ISAv) in B.C.'s wild salmon, despite the fact that federal officials and the fish farm industry have categorically denied this claim.



CFIA made this announcement, while Marine Harvest made this statement about it.



Seven wild salmon tested positive for ISAv this fall, according to advocates' research. They say a 2004 report co-authored by DFO found over 100 cases of ISAv in wild salmon, and that all of the critically endangered Cultus Lake sockeye tested positive in 2002-03 data.



Particularly alarming is the allegation that 64 out of the 64 samples of Cultus Lake sockeye tested positive. "Outrageous" is how a local Sto:lo chief describes it.



"Why was Stó:lõ Tribal Council not informed and involved in an emergency response? Could this explain why Cultus Lake Sockeye are doing so poorly? asked Chief Otis Jasper of the Soowahlie First Nation in a release.



DFO failed to make these findings public, and did not submit the report to the Cohen Inquiry.



“This only confirms DFO appears to support the aquaculture industry over wild salmon, and this is an obvious conflict of interest that needs to be corrected, “ said Ernie Victor, Stó:lõ Nation Fisheries officer.



The timing of the rally is to coincide with the re-opening this week of the Cohen Commission into the decline of Fraser Sockeye to hear evidence on the salmon virus.



jfeinberg@theprogress.com

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 12, 2011, 10:58:10 PM
I'd suggest the fish farms and DFO are the ones that have the funding.......

That is what you said speaking of who has the resources to carry out the media campaigns and I corrected you. We were speaking of financing those campaigns, not any desire the farms might have to expand though as you say, expansion would create more jobs in job-scarce regions in the province and increase government revenue to help cover some of the growing shortfalls that are leading to decreased services at increased cost. The argument against expansion comes from the reactionaries and is based on a number of prejudicial assumptions that are unproven in our environment, ignore the track record of both farms and regulators and that rely on a base of half truths and misinterpretation for their justification.

Call that image of the grant report nonsense or what ever else you like. Whatever it is, it and that linked .pdf illustrate that there is an organized and well-funded campaign deliberately intended to disrupt the industry. That is completely relevant to Morton and the campaign to disrupt salmon farm operations in BC. It establishes that Morton is not David taking on Goliath as both you and she claim, and that the campaign to eliminate farms is not grassroots or local. It is established, co-ordinated, well-financed and hiding behind a so-called altruistic and populist screen. When Chris shares his chain letters, he is a part of that campaign whether he realizes what underlies it or not.

I'm certainly not complaining about his posting; he is completely entitled to post whatever he likes just as he is also entitled to believe whatever he wants. Posting it does, however, open it up to fair comment just as my comments then become fair game for you. In the end, any reader will have to decide for themselves which is rhetoric and which is reason. Some will decide based on their emotional responses and others on a reasoned, fact based analysis. Some will respond with a personal attack, others with a cogent argument though I have to admit, I've yet to run across a cogent, well thought out argument from the reactionary perspective..

Needless to say, I'm far more interested in hearing from someone who brings a rational approach to the discussion. I like facts, not fear-mongering, because facts can be confirmed and tied to each other by the known rules of logic to create a much more accurate and reliable understanding than can be had from someone who just knows it's wrong but can't really explain why and who when questioned, makes angry attacks and emotional appeals that are based on things that haven't happened.

Edit: I'd appreciate if you would provide a link to Morton's non-profit financial statements. I've not been able to find them.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on December 13, 2011, 07:34:20 AM
Sounds like someone took being proactive to be "fear mongering". That's called being paranoid. :) I would recommend medication to take the bite out of reality.

To say that there's no possible way that fish farms can cause disease problems is also way out there and not logical. If only people defending fish farms could get a grasp of the big picture, without feeling threatened by middle aged women.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 13, 2011, 08:32:43 AM
Being proactive requires adherence to the truth, logic and scientific principles. Fear mongering doesn't.

Being proactive means acknowledging that not a single instance of the purported ISAV discoveries have been confirmed by retest or culture and not a single instance of clinical ISA disease has ever been found in BC.

Fear mongering requires taking unconfirmed findings of ISAV and announcing to the world that ISA is present in BC waters and it was brought there by the salmon farms.

You tell me which group that middle-aged woman falls into.






And no-one that I know of claims that fish farms can't cause disease problems. Indeed, the awareness of that possibility is why the regulatory regime is as strict as it is. Because of that regime, there have been no serious problems in the 30+ year history of salmon farming in BC. Because of that record, the reactionaries are forced to manufacture all sorts of what-if scenarios to justify their opposition and are reduced to fear mongering as their main tool.

And you talk of farm supporters as not seeing the big picture....................................
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 13, 2011, 11:56:17 AM
That is what you said speaking of who has the resources to carry out the media campaigns and I corrected you. ......................

This is about as far as I got before I lost interest.....   ;D


Edit: I'd appreciate if you would provide a link to Morton's non-profit financial statements. I've not been able to find them.

Here you go... knock yourself out!  http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/lstngs/menu-eng.html (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/lstngs/menu-eng.html)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 13, 2011, 12:58:19 PM
It is a mark of modern society that people have very short attention spans.

Thanks for that link. It indicates that Morton's charity alone was re-granted by other charities some $360,000 in the years 2006 through 2010, a number that considerably exceeds the funds raised from other sources. It doesn't, however, indicate who provided that funding or for what purpose.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 13, 2011, 01:09:35 PM

Fish health regulations called inadequate
 Ex-government biologist questions federal assurances on salmon virus
 By Judith Lavoie, Times Colonist December 13, 2011   Canada's fish health regulations are not stringent enough to prevent viruses from being imported to West Coast fish farms on Atlantic salmon eggs, says a former high-level provincial government fisheries biologist.

Sally Goldes, fish health unit section head at the B.C. Environment Ministry for 17 years, has submitted a paper to the Cohen Commission on the decline of Fraser River sockeye that says iodine treatment of eggs and the testing of overseas providers of salmon eggs - Canada's defence against disease transmission - are inadequate.

Goldes' submission will be made public this week when the commission holds special hearings focusing on the Infectious Salmon Anemia virus.

"The data - [inadequate sample sizes, ineffectiveness of iodine disinfection, etc.] suggests that the current Canada Fish Health Protection Rules do not provide a high level of regulatory security against the introduction of ISAV into British Columbia," the paper concludes.

"It is important to remember that iodine disinfection does not kill ISAV present inside the egg and it is unknown whether ISAV is in this location."

Salmon farms in B.C. import Atlantic salmon eggs from such countries as Britain, the U.S. and Iceland.

The virus has devastated fish farms in Chile and Norway and is also present in Atlantic Canada.

Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency announced in a news conference this month that no confirmed cases of the disease have been found in wild or farmed salmon in B.C.

Their tests followed others in separate laboratories that found weak positives for ISA.

It was also revealed this month that tests conducted more than a decade ago found the virus in more than 100 B.C. fish.

However, those tests were discounted by officials with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency as unconfirmed.

Goldes, who has not worked as a fisheries biologist since 2001, said she has kept up with all the literature and debate around the virus.

She is concerned ISA could be introduced to B.C. waters and spread to already stressed wild salmon populations.

"If you really look closely at the regulations, from a scientific basis, there is not the high degree of protection that the government, and particularly DFO, states that they have," Goldes said. "It's an issue of trust."

Iodine treatment is designed to rid egg surfaces of bacteria.

"It does that job relatively effectively, but ISA is a virus and is a very different beast," Goldes said.

"I have also always had concerns about the testing of source facilities where the eggs come from," she said.

Goldes would not speculate on whether ISA is present in B.C. waters.

"I think DFO and CFIA have a lot more work to do. I think that press conference was entirely premature," she said.

"The problem is that DFO has a dual mandate for aquaculture and wild fish, and the decisions are political."

B.C. Salmon Farmers Association executive director Mary Ellen Walling said she has not seen the paper and cannot speak to it because of an undertaking not to talk about Cohen Commission evidence until it is made public.

"I am respecting the agreement we all made as part of this process," she said.

"It is unfortunate it is being raised in this way as we are unable to respond. It's not the first time this has happened during this process."

jlavoie@timescolonist.com


Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Fish+health+regulations+called+inadequate/5850976/story.html#ixzz1gS2HCGTv
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 13, 2011, 01:47:14 PM
Hello Wild Salmon People;

The work we have done together looking for ISA virus and making it public has prompted the Cohen Commission to reopen on the Thursday this week (Dec. 15, 16, 19).  In preparation for this I have done a blog quoting government's fierce internal debate over importing Atlantics into BC.  You can see there are heroes in DFO and the Ministry of Environment who were silenced by the looming threat of Trade Sanctions.  Real or imagined you can see this pressure degraded the safeguards.  Interestingly, first industry brought in Scottish eggs (1985), but stopped suddenly and lobbied for U.S. eggs. Large numbers of eggs poured in from the U.S. and then abruptly stopped.  Industry then pressured DFO to allow Icelandic eggs.  DFO drops the regulations further and eggs flood in from Iceland, and then abruptly stop in 2009.  April 2010, the salmon farmers decide they don't want the provincial government auditing their farms for viruses.  No matter whether we are talking about exotic or endemic viruses, salmon farms destabilize the relationship between pathogen and host.  If commerce and not biology regulates how we deal with disease - we are in trouble.

I think it is important to recognize there have been and still are heroic efforts from within government to protect our fish from disease. Today, Dr. Sally Goldes who headed the provincial fish health lab stepped forward in the Times Colonist to say we never had effective measures against imported viruses. (see my blog).  We need to support these people to represent our need for wild salmon.

I understand the Cohen Commission is refusing to allow live-streaming of this public inquiry.  There are people who have stepped up to do this at no charge.  You can voice an opinion on this: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/SubmissionForm.php
Carla Shore carla.shore@cohencommission.ca 604-658-3646, Cell: 604-329-0975 Ms. Shore is only the messenger, you will need to convince Justice Bruce Cohen

This a public inquiry into a public resource,  we are paying for the court time, the lawyers, the judge and the salaries of some of the people on the stand. It is open to the public who can afford to make the trip,  so why can't everyone listen in as they did earlier this year?  What about the people 900km up the Fraser River, don't they get the right  listen too?

Check for times and location at cohencommission.ca go to "Calendar and Transcripts" - it is in a new location

I will be blogging daily at http://alexandramorton.typepad.com, there will be live-blogging at the salmon are sacred Facebook page, hopefully we can inspire Cohen to make this public Inquiry - public to the people of Canada.

There is no question we are in troubled times.  But I think it is important to remember that the reason industry pressured government allow them to pour Atlantic salmon into the Pacific was to make money off the enormous capacity of the North Pacific to grow fish.  If salmon farms contaminate these waters what is the point?   They will lose what they came for, and we will lose what we have.

They can make deals, rationalize bad behaviour, give corporations more rights than local people, but if they destroy what they so blindly pursue - what is the point?

We need to find solid ground and stand on it.  Salmon disease is not a federal secret. These hearings are very, very important.

Alexandra Morton
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 13, 2011, 02:15:04 PM
It is a mark of modern society that people have very short attention spans.

Thanks for that link. It indicates that Morton's charity alone was re-granted by other charities some $360,000 in the years 2006 through 2010, a number that considerably exceeds the funds raised from other sources. It doesn't, however, indicate who provided that funding or for what purpose.

As a salmon farm supporter, I am sure you would like to see her muzzled, her computer confiscated and all her funding cut off! Thank goodness that there are people out there who are supporting her in the fight to save wild salmon.

How much money has DFO and the fish farms pumped into that industry to try and get the public to believe it is harmless to the wild fish? I think you would agree that Morton's $90,000 a year is a pittance against the resources of the fish farm proponents. I believe I heard somewhere that the recent fish farm advertising was costing over $3,000,000.....   and that has been spent in less than 6 months. I'm amazed that Morton has been able to accomplish so much with so little!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 13, 2011, 02:41:14 PM
Fish health regulations called inadequate
 Ex-government biologist questions federal assurances on salmon virus
 By Judith Lavoie, Times Colonist December 13, 2011   Canada's fish health regulations are not stringent enough to prevent viruses from being imported to West Coast fish farms on Atlantic salmon eggs, says a former high-level provincial government fisheries biologist.

Sally Goldes, fish health unit section head at the B.C. Environment Ministry for 17 years, has submitted a paper to the Cohen Commission on the decline of Fraser River sockeye that says iodine treatment of eggs and the testing of overseas providers of salmon eggs - Canada's defence against disease transmission - are inadequate.

"The problem is that DFO has a dual mandate for aquaculture and wild fish, and the decisions are political."


No kidding!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 13, 2011, 03:17:40 PM
Years ago I worked with Dr. Goldes and I certainly respect her knowledge on these matters.  The iodine bath she mentions is standard procedure for surface disinfection in most hatcheries to prevent vertical transmission of pathogens, and is a protocol strictly adhered to when incubating Cultus Lake sockeye eggs. 
Sockeye are particularly susceptible to Infectious Hematopoietic Necrosis (IHN), a virus found throughout the Fraser River watershed and probably throughout North America. The iodine bath most certainly kills this virus and to my knowledge, IHN has never been transmitted during this program or at any other salmon hatchery, because of this precautionary bath.
The big question of course is if it turns out ISAv is resistant to this iodine treatment (which I doubt), why have there been no outbreaks of this disease in BC farmed Atlantic's?

Looking forward to what comes next :) 

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 13, 2011, 03:22:13 PM
Once again, I will point you at the fact that DFO has a dual mandate because Morton carried the battle to court to make that so. I'll say it yet again.

DFO has a dual mandate because Morton caused that to happen.

It is up to her to explain why she fought so hard for something she thinks so unconscionable.




As a supporter of the truth, I think the best thing that can happen with Morton is that she remain front and center. She remains her own worst enemy; her actions remain the greatest threat to her own declining credibility. What I would like to see, as I indicated to you earlier, is an accounting of who is supporting her with grant money. As I also indicated to you earlier, Morton does not reveal who is sponsoring her campaign.

I'm sure you are completely aware that $360,000 is only the amount that has been provided to Morton; there are many other ENGOs involved in this campaign and all of them feed at the same teat. The sums involved grossly exceed Morton's share. The industry is finally fighting back against the misinformation campaign; though many think they should have started long ago, I understand the tactical reasons why they haven't. Any response by the industry represents earned media for the reactionaries and contributes to raising their profile, a concept well understood by the reactionary campaign strategists and the farm industry. Problems aren't solved by trying them in the media nor are they adjudicated by the uninformed public. Co-operating with the reactionary agenda by responding to every little provocation is a waste of energy and funds and does not promote solutions. Morton wants to fight to evict the industry; the industry wants to work with the regulators to find ways to make farming safer and more efficient. Obviously, the industry will favour a constructive solution over reacting to Morton.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 13, 2011, 03:28:10 PM
Years ago I worked with Dr. Goldes and I certainly respect her knowledge on these matters.  The iodine bath she mentions is standard procedure for surface disinfection in most hatcheries to prevent vertical transmission of pathogens, and is a protocol strictly adhered to when incubating Cultus Lake sockeye eggs. 
Sockeye are particularly susceptible to Infectious Hematopoietic Necrosis (IHN), a virus found throughout the Fraser River watershed and probably throughout North America. The iodine bath most certainly kills this virus and to my knowledge, IHN has never been transmitted during this program or at any other salmon hatchery, because of this precautionary bath.
The big question of course is if it turns out ISAv is resistant to this iodine treatment (which I doubt), why have there been no outbreaks of this disease in BC farmed Atlantic's?

Looking forward to what comes next :) 




Goldes also overlooks the required quarantine rearing and ongoing screening program (including ISAV testing) that has always been in place when eggs are imported. The products of those eggs are never released from quarantine until they have been certified clear. The other elephant in the room, as you suggest, is that nearly 5000 farmed fish have been tested over the last ten years or so and no trace of the virus has ever turned up nor has there ever been an ISA outbreak among farmed stocks. It would appear that the procedures Goldes deems to have been inadequate have been completely adequate.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 13, 2011, 03:54:49 PM
Once again, I will point you at the fact that DFO has a dual mandate because Morton carried the battle to court to make that so. I'll say it yet again.

DFO has a dual mandate because Morton caused that to happen.

It is up to her to explain why she fought so hard for something she thinks so unconscionable.

You fail to recognize that prior to DFO taking on the responsibility, the provincial government had taken on the mandate of implementing the fish farms. This of course was totally illegal and actually a worse situation than what we have now. Putting the blame on Morton for organizing who legally had the mandate to administer fish farms is lame.

As a supporter of the truth, I think the best thing that can happen with Morton is that she remain front and center. She remains her own worst enemy; her actions remain the greatest threat to her own declining credibility. What I would like to see, as I indicated to you earlier, is an accounting of who is supporting her with grant money. As I also indicated to you earlier, Morton does not reveal who is sponsoring her campaign.


Your concern over Morton's credibility rings hollow....... stick to criticizing her. It helps you sound more genuine.  ::)

Morton obviously abides by all of CRA's rules on disclosure otherwise she would have been de-registered.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 13, 2011, 04:14:02 PM
Your concern over Morton's credibility rings hollow....... stick to criticizing her. It helps you sound more genuine.  ::)
You once said that about me - best to find some new stuff af ::)
Will you be at the rally against farmed salmon here in Chilliwack on Thursday?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 13, 2011, 05:41:32 PM
You once said that about me - best to find some new stuff af ::)
Will you be at the rally against farmed salmon here in Chilliwack on Thursday?
I believe Dave will have a change of heart on Thursday and will be marching with us, with a placard too, not sure what irt will say though. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 13, 2011, 06:02:26 PM
I believe Dave will have a change of heart on Thursday and will be marching with us, with a placard too, not sure what irt will say though. ;D ;D
Gawd, I do indeed need to see this but Chris, I won't be marching with you; but you knew that ;).  Should be fun and we all will see who aligns where, politically.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 13, 2011, 06:32:40 PM
You once said that about me - best to find some new stuff af ::)
Will you be at the rally against farmed salmon here in Chilliwack on Thursday?

If the shoe fits....... and apparently both of you wear the same size.   ;D

It's the last day of "wild" blacktail season so I'll be climbing the hills looking for one.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 13, 2011, 06:34:33 PM
You fail to recognize that prior to DFO taking on the responsibility, the provincial government had taken on the mandate of implementing the fish farms. This of course was totally illegal and actually a worse situation than what we have now. Putting the blame on Morton for organizing who legally had the mandate to administer fish farms is lame.

Your concern over Morton's credibility rings hollow....... stick to criticizing her. It helps you sound more genuine.  ::)

Morton obviously abides by all of CRA's rules on disclosure otherwise she would have been de-registered.

You're missing the point, intentionally I suspect due to the thorny nature of the problem. If DFO is legally required to administer fish farms and is also legally required to administer the wild fishery how can you then complain that the situation is untenable. What can the DFO possibly do to appease Morton when she says it is a conflict of interest for the DFO to administer both and yet goes to court to force the DFO to take on salmon farming in addition to it's previously existing wild fishery mandate? Should they now divest themselves of responsibility for the wild fishery? Instead of pitching rocks, maybe you would take the time to explain how this Morton-created paradox can be solved. It's a textbook example of accommodating cognitive dissonance to not see the issue here.

CRA's disclosure rules are irrelevant in this case. Those are tax laws. We really need to be looking at laws that apply to lobbyists, and rules for lobbyists require that they disclose who they are acting for. It is in the public interest to know who is backing Morton's and the other participating ENGOs campaign to dismantle an industry that contributes substantially to the provincial economy. That we don't, that it hasn't been volunteered by Morton, suggests that she thinks it is better that we don't know.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 13, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
You're missing the point, intentionally I suspect due to the thorny nature of the problem. If DFO is legally required to administer fish farms and is also legally required to administer the wild fishery how can you then complain that the situation is untenable. What can the DFO possibly do to appease Morton when she says it is a conflict of interest for the DFO to administer both and yet goes to court to force the DFO to take on salmon farming in addition to it's previously existing wild fishery mandate? Should they now divest themselves of responsibility for the wild fishery? Instead of pitching rocks, maybe you would take the time to explain how this Morton-created paradox can be solved. It's a textbook example of accommodating cognitive dissonance to not see the issue here.

CRA's disclosure rules are irrelevant in this case. Those are tax laws. We're really need to be looking at laws that apply to lobbyists here, and rules for lobbyists require that they disclose who they are acting for. It is in the public interest to know who is backing Morton's and the other participating ENGOs campaign to dismantle an industry that contributes substantially to the provincial economy. That we don't, that it hasn't been volunteered by Morton suggests that she thinks it is better that we don't know.

Oceans are constitutionally required to be under federal jurisdiction and until Morton challenged it in court, BC was messing in that area. The courts straightened everyone out, all Morton did was bring it to their attention. DFO is doing what the government of the day asks them to do. One way to avoid the obvious conflict of interest that DFO is in, would be for the government to move the responsibility for these farms to another agency....   Salmon farming was obviously not well thought out since the beginning!

If the supporters haven't been been disclosed, how can you even suggest they are lobbyists??  After all you are the ultimate "supporter of truth".  ;D

They are probably just concerned citizens like myself who fear the demise of the wild salmon and are putting their money where their mouth is. The honorable thing about these folks is they are doing it because they care about the wild salmon.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 13, 2011, 09:37:08 PM
Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing.

Do you understand what a lobbyist is and does? The concerned citizens like yourself who put their money where their mouth is provide considerably less funding for her cause than re-granting by other charities. Voluntary disclosure of those backers would greatly enhance Morton's credibility.

Or maybe not ................
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 14, 2011, 05:36:27 AM
DFO is doing what the government of the day asks them to do. One way to avoid the obvious conflict of interest that DFO is in, would be for the government to move the responsibility for these farms to another agency....   Salmon farming was obviously not well thought out since the beginning!

You're quite right that the core of the problem isn't DFO, it's the politicians that have been pushing aquaculture from afar without investing the time and resources into DFO to first understand conclusively whether or not salmon farming is environmentally sustaianable in BC. It's been suggested that Agriculture Canada take over salmon farming from DFO. Somehow I doubt AGCan would have much concern about potential impacts on wild fish.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 14, 2011, 04:57:44 PM
CTV video on the Fish Farm protest on the Island from yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LTV8PSy1K7E
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 14, 2011, 05:04:15 PM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"DFO Crime Scene - Justice for Wild Salmon!" (Superheroes 4 Salmon, 14th December): http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/dfo-crime-scene-justice-wild-salmon

 

"Cohen Inquiry Reconvenes to Study ISA Virus in Pacific Salmon" (Pacific Free Press, 14th December): http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1-/10429-cohen-inquiry-reconvenes-to-study-isa-virus-in-pacific-salmon.html

 

"Senate to Hold Hearing on GE Salmon" (Food Safety News, 14th December): http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/12/senate-to-hold-hearing-on-ge-salmon/

 

 

"The Battle Over Frankenfish Heads to Congress: GMO salmon's potential impact will be debated in front of a Senate subcommittee this week" (Take Part, 13th December): http://www.takepart.com/article/2011/12/13/battle-over-frankenfish-heads-congress

 

"Atlantic Salmon - how did this happen to British Columbia?" (Alexandra Morton, 13th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/the-recent-history-of-atlantic-salmon-egg-imports-into-british-columbia.html

 

"Editorial: It's not the time to gut Fisheries" (The Times Colonist, 13th December): http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Editorial+time+Fisheries/5854324/story.html

 

"Rally planned at Tofino DFO" (The Westerly News, 13th December): http://www2.canada.com/westerly/story.html?id=adac177c-be82-4d7b-bc83-ca47f0eee3f9

 

"Bonny Glambeck and Kalilah Discuss (and sing about) Infectious Salmon Anaemia" (Long Beach Radio, 13th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxVy__hnheI

 

"Lawsuit: Overfishing leaves salmon, whales hungry" (Associated Press/Seattle Times, 13th December): http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017007791_aporoverfishinglawsuit.html

 

"Cooke Aquaculture pesticide case adjourned until March" (The Digby Courier, 13th December): http://www.digbycourier.ca/News/2011-12-13/article-2833712/Cooke-Aquaculture-pesticide-case-adjourned-until-March/1

 

"Fish farm lobster death case adjourned" (CBC News, 13th December): http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/12/13/nb-cooke-aquaculture-charges-610.html

 

"Which drugs do the DFO and Canadian Food Inspection Agency need for their premature communication issue? (hairtrigger problems anyone?)" (The Salmon Guy, 13th December): http://www.salmonguy.org/?p=4677

 

"Fisheries 'workforce adjustment' worrisome for coastal communities" (Times Colonist/Vancouver Sun, 13th December): http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Fisheries+workforce+adjustment+worrisome+coastal+communities/5850980/story.html

 

"Suzuki Foundation disputes Cooke claims of sustainable aquaculture" (South Coast Today, 13th December): http://www.southcoasttoday.ca/content/suzuki-foundation-disputes-cooke-claims-sustainable-aquaculture

 

"Depleted Fish Stocks Drive Chinese Fishermen into Korean Waters" (The Chosunilbo, 13th December): http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/12/13/2011121301529.html 

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 01:58:32 PM
Salmon virus in B.C. for decades, say biologists
World experts defend sample results
 
 
   
Department of Fisheries (DFO) biologists have told a federal inquiry that fish samples, dating back more than two decades have tested positive for a potentially lethal wild sockeye fish virus — but that fact wasn't publicly reported.

Dr. Kristi Miller, the head of molecular genetics for DFO in Nanaimo, told the Cohen Commission on Thursday that frozen samples dating back to 1986 have been tested, and show infectious salmon anemia (ISA) has been in B.C. waters for at least 25 years.

The public inquiry into the decline of the Fraser River sockeye salmon stocks was extended for three extra days after ISA was detected in wild B.C. salmon two months ago by Simon Fraser University Prof. Rick Routledge.

That revelation put the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and B.C.'s fish farming industry on high alert, but those results couldn't be confirmed and government scientists announced earlier this month that extensive testing came up negative.

The alleged presence of ISA in B.C. salmon stocks is controversial because the virus had never before been found in salmon off B.C.'s coast, either in the Atlantic species that are farmed in ocean pens or in B.C.'s indigenous wild salmon.

The virus is known to be devastating to farmed Atlantic salmon and opponents of the fish farm industry have suggested farmed fish could spread ISA to wild stocks, with catastrophic results.

The virus has been linked to the destruction of the salmon farming industry in Chile and Europe.

The crisis has prompted the Canada Food Inspection Agency to develop a regular surveillance program for ISA, that is expected to be in place as early as next spring.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 02:08:42 PM
Follow the Cohen Inquiry here on facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/events/263406340380314/

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on December 15, 2011, 03:29:02 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/12/15/bc-salmon-virus-claims.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/12/15/bc-salmon-virus-claims.html)

So its been here for decades, quick Alexa get the spin doctors working.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 04:31:49 PM
Here is one of the videos I shot today on the march to Mark Strahl's office with a letter about fish farm concerns.

http://youtu.be/3KAwop6PUXc
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 04:47:40 PM
The Canadian Press

Date: Thursday Dec. 15, 2011 6:53 PM ET

VANCOUVER — There are indications that for decades now salmon in British Columbia may have been carrying a virus that wiped out stocks in Norway and Chile, but experts don't know if it will have the same devastating results.

Four pre-eminent fish scientists relayed their suspicions during an extraordinary meeting of the Cohen Commission, which has spent 21 months investigating the sharp decline of B.C.'s Fraser River sockeye.

The commission reconvened after the alarming discovery by a Simon Fraser University professor of infectious salmon anaemia in two smolts in northern B.C.

Kristi Miller, who heads a molecular genetics lab for the federal Fisheries Department, joined two other Canadians and a Norwegian on a panel appearing before the commission.

"I clearly believe that there is a virus here that is very similar to ISA virus in Europe, but we really do need to get a fuller sequence to get more information about how similar it is," said Miller.

"Also, we have not established that it causes disease."

Miller gave evidence Thursday in the first of three days of the special sitting to discuss infectious salmon anaemia.

Her submissions came from research conducted in her Nanaimo, B.C., laboratory. She noted the testing procedures were not standard and differed from another government-funded lab on the East Coast, but suggested her tests could be more sensitive.

Miller told the inquiry that she has not only tested recent samples of fish, but went back into her massive archive and ran the same procedure on fish from 1986 and found a similar pattern.

"Which suggests that not only has this been here for at least 25 years, but it's been here probably quite considerably longer than that," she said.

Some research indicates Pacific salmon could be resistant to the virus.

ISA, an influenza-like virus, has killed millions of fish in Chile after it's believed to have been transported from Norway, where it was first discovered in the 1980s.

Government scientists from the Department of Fisheries and Canadian Food Inspection Agency moved to assuage fears by conducting further tests. Along with the Fisheries Minister, they announced the virus had not been detected and said public agencies will nonetheless develop a new surveillance plan to watch more closely for fish diseases.

The panel of scientists agreed more research needs to be done.

"In this case, I don't know where we are at this point because we do not have enough information, but it could really be that we are looking at another ISA that was there for a long time," said Nellie Gagne, a molecular biology scientist who leads a Department of Fisheries lab in Moncton, N.B.

"It's an interesting theory that I'm keen to see more work done on."

Gagne said her own lab had not turned up any samples she would consider positive, but noted that the lab uses "universal" test methods that look for known strains.

"If there are others, we don't know about it," she said.

Fred Kibenge, who works at the Atlantic Veterinary College which runs the reference lab for the virus in P.E.I., conducted the initial tests that came up with positive results on two smolts publicized widely in October.

He told the inquiry he believes the recent testing conducted by himself and Miller is "overwhelming" evidence of the virus. He also tried to substantiate an unpublished study from 2004 -- conducted in part by his wife -- that was leaked to media last month.

It concluded an asymptomatic form of the virus was occurring in some wild-salmon species in the north Pacific.

Kibenge noted the results that emerged from Miller's lab means that his wife's earlier tests may yet be credible.

However, one scientists came out strongly opposing the results found in Miller's lab.

"We have a lot of indications that the virus could be present in Pacific salmon, but there is no hard evidence," said Are Nylund, a professor with the department of biology at the University of Bergen in Norway.

Nylund, who has studied the virus for years, described Miller's testing procedures as "a bit strange."

He did note he believes the virus could spread from eastern Canada, where it has infected Atlantic salmon, to the West Coast, similar to the theorized transfer of the virus from Norway to Chile.



Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20111215/salmon-virus-report-111215/#ixzz1gecS9EZG
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 05:03:07 PM
Interesting observation from Dr. Kristi Miller at Cohen.

‎25% of the farmed salmon tested positive for ISA in the Creative Salmon farms in Clayoquot Sound says Dr Miller. Other pathogens and viruses were found. "We did find fish positive for the virus which is thought to cause HSMI"


HSMI  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090406073545.htm
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 15, 2011, 06:25:41 PM
Chris, I know your heart is racing :D  Calm yourself and wait for Monday ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 15, 2011, 06:36:59 PM
Chris, I know your heart is racing :D  Calm yourself and wait for Monday ;)

I think it may be your heart that is doing the racing Dave....   Must be difficult for you; watching all the evidence coming out.

I'm sure it was much easier denying there was a problem when neither DFO or the farms were forthcoming about the diseases they are generating.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 07:38:13 PM
Chris, I know your heart is racing :D  Calm yourself and wait for Monday ;)
At 68 years I am glad to have it just beating. ;D

I better post the next video from the rally today, I see you in it, thanks for coming. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 07:40:58 PM
Our finest hour.

http://salmonwarriors.blogspot.com/2011/12/our-finest-hour.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 15, 2011, 07:50:47 PM
No alwaysfishin, there was nothing new announced today.  A virus that has probably been here in the Pacific for a long time (see some of Nylunds comments) was found by researchers because an activist thought it's disclosure might help her agenda to rid BC of salmon farms.
But here's the issue for said activist -  Pacific salmon are pretty much immune to it and it apparently it does not harm farmed Atlantics.  Kind of hard to find a problem, so far.



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 15, 2011, 09:38:11 PM
DFO covers up disease in wild salmon - day one of explosive testimony at the Cohen Inquiry into ISA virus

Dec 15, 2011 Vancouver Immediate Release Four salmon disease experts were on the stand today at the Cohen Inquiry into the decline of the Fraser sockeye. Dr. Are Nylund of the University of Bergen is an expert in salmon viruses, including the ISA virus. Dr. Fred Kibenge runs one of only two World Organization for Animal Health labs for ISA virus. Dr. Kristina Miller is the head of the Genomics Lab at DFO’s Pacific Biological Station. Nelle Gagne is a researcher at the DFO National Reference Lab in Moncton a non-accredited lab.

On December 2, 2011, the Minister of Fisheries announced, “there has never been a confirmed case of ISA in British Columbia salmon” http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/statement-declarations/2011/20111202-eng.htm However, on the stand today, Justice Cohen heard the DFO “Reference lab” is the only one that can’t seem to find ISA virus. The difference was in the type of software and assays used by Moncton. ISA virus is a type of fish flu, appearing worldwide wherever there are salmon farms, it has a tendency to mutating into highly virulent strains in the crowded.

But it got worse. Testing farm salmon in Clayoquot Sound for a jaundice yellow condition killing the farm fish for the past 7 years revealed both ISA virus and a new Norwegian virus that causes Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation (HSMI) in salmon. Dr. Miller also reported higher levels of both ISA virus and HSMI in Fraser sockeye smolts in 2007, than 2008. The 2007, sockeye smolts were the ones that never came home in 2009. This raises the question how much these diseases contributed to the sockeye crash.

The scientists on the stand were unsure how long ISA virus may have been in BC. Dr. Miller revealed evidence it could have been here since the late 1980s, shortly after the first farm Atlantic salmon came to BC in 1985. What was most disturbing is that DFO never told the public and did not reveal the ISAv and HSMI findings to the Inquiry. Justice Cohen instructed DFO over a year ago to produce all evidence on the health of the Fraser sockeye. One hundred percent of the highly endangered Cultus Lake sockeye of the Fraser River tested positive for ISAv in 2002, 2003 and DFO never revealed this to the Inquiry and maintains the position ISA virus is not here.

This is a dangerous and shameful breach of public trust, DFO lost all credibility, they are like addicts when it comes to salmon farms, they will do and say anything. They are going to destroy wild salmon as they did wild cod of the North Atlantic, no one has the right to be careless with viruses.

At the hearings in August, the BC Salmon Farmers suggested they would develop a protocol with Miller to allow her to test Atlantic salmon for viruses. However, when asked today Miller said she refused an arrangement where the salmon farmers would have become managing partners in her research on Fraser sockeye while delaying access to Atlantic salmon until some future, undefined date.

While the public has been told all the wild salmon that tested positive for ISA virus were healthy, a researcher in Dr. Miller’s lab, Brad Davis, discovered that in fact ISA virus positive salmon exhibit symptoms of the flu – suggesting harm.

The Commission also heard evidence that when the provincial vet provided Dr. Miller with farm salmon samples that were so degraded and spoiled they were useless.

Tomorrow Dr. Simon Jones of DFO takes the stand because he co-authored the paper that found ISAv in 100% of the Fraser sockeye, a paper DFO never provided to the Inquiry.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 15, 2011, 10:02:51 PM
No alwaysfishin, there was nothing new announced today.  A virus that has probably been here in the Pacific for a long time (see some of Nylunds comments) was found by researchers because an activist thought it's disclosure might help her agenda to rid BC of salmon farms.
But here's the issue for said activist -  Pacific salmon are pretty much immune to it and it apparently it does not harm farmed Atlantics.  Kind of hard to find a problem, so far.


"While the public has been told all the wild salmon that tested positive for ISA virus were healthy, a researcher in Dr. Miller’s lab, Brad Davis, discovered that in fact ISA virus positive salmon exhibit symptoms of the flu – suggesting harm."

Are you starting to see the problem, Dave?.....   ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 15, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
"While the public has been told all the wild salmon that tested positive for ISA virus were healthy, a researcher in Dr. Miller’s lab, Brad Davis, discovered that in fact ISA virus positive salmon exhibit symptoms of the flu – suggesting harm."

Are you starting to see the problem, Dave?.....   ???

A positive PCR test for ISAV does not necessary mean that the host has ISA.  Further confirmation is required which includes isolating and culturing the virus and then comparing those viral genes with a known ISA fingerprint.  Symptoms alone do not prove disease.  In addition, just because a host gets a virus it does not necessarily mean that it will cause disease, nor does it mean it will cause death.  Scientists are not even certain that this is even causing disease.  I am seeing a problem.....It is callled "jumping to conclusions".
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 15, 2011, 10:43:27 PM
Just to make sure that nothing important is being filtered out by any commentators, it's probably not a bad idea to cut out all the middle men and just go straight to the transcript of the testimony for the day. They will be posted here fairly shortly:

http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/Schedule/ (http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/Schedule/)

Click on the date of interest on the calender and once they are posted, both the transcript and all related exhibits will be available for reading.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 15, 2011, 10:48:01 PM
Just a suggestion Chris.

It would be helpful if you included some attribution for the articles that you post. It's a common practice to indicate the thoughts aren't your own and and a courtesy to give the reader some idea of who actually is responsible for them.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 16, 2011, 06:58:14 AM
Just a suggestion Chris.

It would be helpful if you included some attribution for the articles that you post. It's a common practice to indicate the thoughts aren't your own and and a courtesy to give the reader some idea of who actually is responsible for them.
Thanks for the suggestion, I guess it would be nice if people on forums use their full and proper names too, like I do. ;D ;D
Here is another video I shot yesterday.

http://youtu.be/E75-wgA7HIM
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on December 16, 2011, 07:18:58 AM
"I guess it would be nice if people on forums use their full and proper names too, like I do. "


Master stroke Chris. No wonder your getting all the Steelies. ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 07:44:15 AM
Just a suggestion Chris.

It would be helpful if you included some attribution for the articles that you post. It's a common practice to indicate the thoughts aren't your own and and a courtesy to give the reader some idea of who actually is responsible for them.

 If anyone is qualified to give suggestions on how to post, it's Chris!   ::)

 Chris - 8,930 posts     Absolon - 24 posts.  



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 16, 2011, 08:22:12 AM
http://thecanadian.org/k2/item/1222-kristi-miller-cohen-commission-salmon-virus
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 08:43:29 AM
As Miller explained, there’s no real doubt that ISA virus (ISAv) is here; but until the virus is actually demonstrated to be killing salmon, it’s fair not to call it a "disease".

And that’s what these folks are hanging their hat on - by their definition ISA alone implies ISA disease. They are very careful not to call it ISAv (virus) – just ISA without the “v”, implying that there is not evidence of ISA disease here in BC - which appears, for the time being, to be technically correct, though patently and deliberately deceitful.



....reminds me of something that was posted recently:  ??? "A positive PCR test for ISAV does not necessary mean that the host has ISA.  Further confirmation is required which includes isolating and culturing the virus and then comparing those viral genes with a known ISA fingerprint.  Symptoms alone do not prove disease.  In addition, just because a host gets a virus it does not necessarily mean that it will cause disease, nor does it mean it will cause death.  Scientists are not even certain that this is even causing disease."
  
P.S. Just so Absolon doesn't get on my case, shuswapsteve gets credit for that last quote. :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on December 16, 2011, 09:15:54 AM
If anyone is qualified to give suggestions on how to post, it's Chris!   ::)

 Chris - 8,930 posts     Absolon - 24 posts.  





Wow lads thanks for the brown nosing 101 lesson.
Wish I had the time to copy and paste all my arguments, wait they wouldnt be my arguements then would they?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 16, 2011, 09:26:40 AM
As Miller explained, there’s no real doubt that ISA virus (ISAv) is here; but until the virus is actually demonstrated to be killing salmon, it’s fair not to call it a "disease".

And that’s what these folks are hanging their hat on - by their definition ISA alone implies ISA disease. They are very careful not to call it ISAv (virus) – just ISA without the “v”, implying that there is not evidence of ISA disease here in BC - which appears, for the time being, to be technically correct, though patently and deliberately deceitful.



....reminds me of something that was posted recently:  ??? "A positive PCR test for ISAV does not necessary mean that the host has ISA.  Further confirmation is required which includes isolating and culturing the virus and then comparing those viral genes with a known ISA fingerprint.  Symptoms alone do not prove disease.  In addition, just because a host gets a virus it does not necessarily mean that it will cause disease, nor does it mean it will cause death.  Scientists are not even certain that this is even causing disease."
  
P.S. Just so Absolon doesn't get on my case, shuswapsteve gets credit for that last quote. :D

You might also do us the courtesy of providing attribution for comments you quote. I'm not sure who made those comments, but it is clear they don't understand the difference between a virus and a disease, or at the very least, are trying to obfuscate that difference.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 16, 2011, 10:09:51 AM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"ISA virus confirmed in AquaBounty’s genetically-engineered salmon: Evidence unveiled at federal Cohen Inquiry into Fraser River sockeye salmon" (Living Oceans Society, 16th December): http://www.livingoceans.org/media/releases/salmon-farming/isa-virus-confirmed-aquabounty%E2%80%99s-genetically-engin

 

"Kristi Miller Steals Show Again as Salmon Inquiry Rocked by New Virus Bombshells" (The Common Sense Canadian, 16th December): http://thecanadian.org/k2/item/1222-kristi-miller-cohen-commission-salmon-virus

 

"The Greatest Gift" (Salmon Are Sacred, 16th December): http://www.salmonaresacred.org/blog/greatest-gift

 

"Canada Holds Hearings on Suspected Virus in Salmon" (The New York Times, 16th December): http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/science/canada-begins-hearings-on-infectious-salmon-anemia-virus.html

 

"DFO covers up disease in wild salmon - day one of explosive testimony at the Cohen Inquiry into ISA virus" (Alexandra Morton, 16th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/dfo-covers-up-disease-in-wild-salmon-day-one-of-explosive-testimony-at-the-cohen-inquiry-into-isa-vi.html

 

"Salmon 'smoking gun' debated" (The Times Colonist, 16th December): http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Salmon+smoking+debated/5870552/story.html

 

"ISA making salmon disappear" (The French Tribune, 16th December): http://www.frenchtribune.com/teneur/118575-isa-making-salmon-disappear

 

"B.C. salmon tested positive for potentially deadly virus, inquiry told" (The Vancouver Sun, 16th December): http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/salmon+tested+positive+potentially+deadly+virus+inquiry+told/5870695/story.html

 

"BC salmon may have exhibited virus for decades" (FIS, 16th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=16&id=48555&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"Salmon disease blocked by rules" (The Times Colonist, 16th December): http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/Salmon+disease+blocked+rules/5870590/story.html

 

"Salmon Inquiry: Alexandra Morton" (CBC News, 15th December): http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=10150518988071253 

 

"Cohen Aquaculture Daily" (Watershed Watch, 15th December): http://www.watershed-watch.org/2011/12/cohen-aquaculture-daily-december-15-2011/

 

"Protesters rally to protect wild salmon" (Chilliwack Progress, 15th December): http://www.theprogress.com/news/135702028.html

 

"Wild salmon march on Chilliwack MP's office" (Chilliwack Times, 15th December): http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/news/Wild+salmon+march+Chilliwack+office/5868194/story.html

 

"Statement regarding availability of samples from BC salmon farms" (BCSFA, 15th December): http://www.salmonfarmers.org/media-releases

 

"Our finest hour" (Salmon Warriors, 15th December): http://salmonwarriors.blogspot.com/2011/12/our-finest-hour.html

 

"Salmon Are Sacred" (You Tube, 15th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KAwop6PUXc&feature=youtu.be

 

"Cohen Commission hears of virus in B.C. sockeye salmon" (The Vancouver Sun, 15th December): http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Cohen+Commission+hears+virus+sockeye+salmon/5868107/story.html

 

"Virus present in B.C. salmon for decades, inquiry told" (The Globe & Mail, 15th December): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/virus-present-in-bc-salmon-for-decades-inquiry-told/article2272915/

 

"B.C. salmon had virus as far back as 1985: report" (CTV, 15th December): http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20111215/salmon-virus-report-111215/

 

"New version of salmon virus may have started in B.C., expert says" (The Vancouver Observer, 15th December): http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politics/2011/12/15/new-version-salmon-virus-may-have-started-bc-expert-says

 

"B.C. salmon had virus as far back as 1985, but it may not be as deadly" (The Canadian Press/News 1130, 15th December): http://www.news1130.com/news/national/article/310702--b-c-salmon-had-virus-as-far-back-as-1985-but-it-may-not-be-as-deadly

 

"Salmon Virus Fears: Scientist claims early evidence of salmon virus, feared lab would be closed" (NPR, 15th December): http://kplu.org/post/scientist-claims-evidence-salmon-virus-early-1986-feared-lab-would-be-closed

 

"Congress must investigate GE salmon's human health impacts" (Indy Bay Media, 15th December): http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/12/15/18702807.php

 

"Well farmed salmon is key to sustainability: Farmed salmon is a Christmas food favourite but at what cost?" (The Daily Telegraph, 15th December): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/8958364/Well-farmed-salmon-is-key-to-sustainability.html

 

"First salmon farm earns BAP certification" (World Fishing & Aquaculture, 15th December): http://www.worldfishing.net/news101/first-salmon-farm-earns-bap-certification

 

"Sound science shows no virus" (The Westerly News, 15th December): http://www.canada.com/Sound+science+shows+virus/5863853/story.html

 

"Mainstream upgrades to improve water quality" (The Westerly News, 15th December): http://www.canada.com/Sound+science+shows+virus/5863853/story.html

 

 

Including from Damien Gillis reporting in today's Common Sense Canadian:

 

"Among the bombshell revelations that emerged from the first of three extra days for the Commission – added recently to address the discovery of ISA virus in wild BC salmon – were the confirmation that ISA virus (or something very similar) is undoubtedly here in BC, and has likely been for at least 25 years; and Miller’s own detection of a new deadly virus in both farmed and wild salmon..... Back to Clayoquot Sound and this new virus Miller discovered there. When she was invited to test Creative Salmon’s famred Chinook salmon, Miller came up with two shocking findings: 1. A full 25% of these fish tested positive for ISAv (so there you have it – farmed fish in BC with ISAv, contrary to the claims of the Province’s fish health audit office and industry that after thousands of test over the years, they’re just sure it isn’t in their fish!); 2. A second virus known as piscine rheovirus – the cause of a deadly disease called HSMI (Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation)."

 

From Alexandra Morton writing in her blog today:

 

"Testing farm salmon in Clayoquot Sound for a jaundice yellow condition killing the farm fish for the past 7 years revealed both ISA virus and a new Norwegian virus that causes Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation (HSMI) in salmon. Dr. Miller also reported higher levels of both ISA virus and HSMI in Fraser sockeye smolts in 2007, than 2008. The 2007, sockeye smolts were the ones that never came home in 2009. This raises the question how much these diseases contributed to the sockeye crash."

And from today's New York Times:

 

"The most combative exchanges occurred during testimony by Kristina Miller, the head of molecular genetics for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans laboratory at Nanaimo, on Vancouver Island. While previous reports of the virus had surfaced from sources outside the Canadian government, only to have Canadian officials question them, Dr. Miller testified that she also had received positive results when she tested for the virus, known as I.S.A. She said that when she reported her work to a superior last month, she was asked why she had conducted it at all. “Nobody in the department talked to me about disease or I.S.A. after that,” Dr. Miller testified. At one point, she said she was frustrated at what she called “flippant dismissal of pathogens” that could be harmful."

 

 

Note that on 16th and 19th December there will be an ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission - details of witnesses online here

 

Follow the Cohen Commission on Facebook via:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=812895354&ref=tn_tnmn#!/events/263406340380314/

 

 

Read the leaked Canadian Government report detailing over 100 positive tests for ISA in farmed Atlantic and wild Pacific salmon – online via 'Fishyleaks'

 

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

Read the official reports from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency on the second case of ISA in coho salmon in the Fraser River - online here

 

Read the report from the OIE Reference Laboratory on the positive samples in Fraser River chinook and chum – online here

 

Read the first official report of the European strain of ISA in sockeye salmon in Rivers Inlet on the Central Coast - online here

 

Read the Norwegian laboratory report on the 6th and 7th positive tests for ISA in Fraser River coho and sockeye – online here

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia"

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 16, 2011, 11:43:39 AM
A recent research paper on ISA: http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/infectious_salmon_anemia.pdf

ISA is the disease - "In farmed Atlantic salmon, the clinical signs may include lethargy, anemia, leukopenia, ascites, exophthalmia, darkened skin and increased mortality."
ISAv is the virus that transmits the disease.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on December 16, 2011, 11:54:50 AM
Thanks for posting that. Very informative. Better than most of the diatribe being posted for the non scientificly inclined like myself.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 16, 2011, 12:46:33 PM
I wonder what Dr. Simon Jones will say ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: mykisscrazy on December 16, 2011, 01:19:18 PM
Probably whatever he is told too say....
But hopefully I am wrong...

What I would like to see is the same sort of sampling occur up and down the Pacific Coast from California to Alaska.
Who knows, whatever they are finding has been here for a long time. The only reason they know for sure since the 80's is because of samples that had been stored away.
It may have always been here.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 16, 2011, 03:13:33 PM
At this point, it's a bit early to come to any conclusions. From what little testimony I have seen, Miller is using an unconventional and not generally accepted technique for testing and it is those tests that have supplied all her results, including those on the samples from the '80s.

I think we need the virologists to come to a conclusion about the validity of her methods before taking any results obtained by those methods as gospel. It isn't just the DFO scientists; even Are Nylund, the Norwegian expert responsible for most preceding work on the virus, questions her methods. Her techniques may be valid, but there needs to be a consensus among experts that they are indeed so. No doubt that discussion will now happen.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 16, 2011, 03:39:31 PM
At this point, it's a bit early to come to any conclusions. From what little testimony I have seen, Miller is using an unconventional and not generally accepted technique for testing and it is those tests that have supplied all her results, including those on the samples from the '80s.

I think we need the virologists to come to a conclusion about the validity of her methods before taking any results obtained by those methods as gospel. It isn't just the DFO scientists; even Are Nylund, the Norwegian expert responsible for most preceding work on the virus, questions her methods. Her techniques may be valid, but there needs to be a consensus among experts that they are indeed so. No doubt that discussion will now happen.
I see you slowly swaying our way on this topic. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 04:06:31 PM
At this point, it's a bit early to come to any conclusions. From what little testimony I have seen, Miller is using an unconventional and not generally accepted technique for testing and it is those tests that have supplied all her results, including those on the samples from the '80s.


Care to expand on that statement?

What is unconventional about Miller's methods? Why would DFO allow her to use unconventional methods for 30 some years rather than firing her and hiring someone that would use conventional methods? Why would DFO promote her to head of molecular genetics, when she obviously was either incompetent or just wouldn't take direction when told to use conventional methods?

Absolon, I suggest your comment is just an attempt to discredit an honest scientist!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
I see you slowly swaying our way on this topic. ;D ;D

Yes, he has come a long way since his first post on this forum:


There are not 100 positive cases of ISA in farmed and wild salmon in BC. There are no cases of ISA and have not ever been any cases of confirmed ISA in the province. ISA is a disease, not a virus and it has never been present. There is a possibility that a virus that is a precursor to the virus which causes ISA is present, but that can't be confirmed because the virus could not be cultured in any of the purported cases. The accusations by the anti-farm lobby are deliberate misinformation intended to wind up uninformed people and conceal the scientific reality. It is not the DFO that can't be trusted. It is the DFO that works with proven facts and science.


After attempting to discredit Miller (a long term employee and head of a DFO department) for using unconventional methods, I find the statement "It is the DFO that works with proven facts and science." to be somewhat ironic, don't you?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 16, 2011, 04:51:52 PM
Some interesting points from the link I posted earlier:

Importance:
Infectious salmon anemia (ISA) is one of the most important viral diseases of farmed Atlantic salmon. This highly contagious disease can be insidious, with an initially low mortality rate; however, the cumulative mortality can sometimes exceed 90% if the disease remains unchecked.

Understanding of the epidemiology of ISA is still incomplete, which complicates its control. The reservoirs for the virus are not known, but experiments have shown that several species of salmonids can carry virulent ISA viruses asymptomatically. These viruses might cause outbreaks if they are transmitted to farmed Atlantic salmon. Noncultivable, apparently nonpathogenic, isolates have also been detected in wild salmonids. Small changes in these viruses, analogous to the mutations that allow low pathogenicity avian influenza viruses to become highly pathogenic, may allow them to become more virulent.

Transmission:
ISAV probably infects fish through the gills, but ingestion has not been ruled out. This virus is shed in epidermal mucus, urine, feces and gonadal fluids. In one study, virus shedding was first detected 7 days after inoculation, and rose above the minimum infective dose on day 11, two days before the first deaths occurred. Shedding peaked approximately 15 days after inoculation, when mortalities were high. ISAV also occurs in blood and tissues; tissue wastes from infected fish are infectious. Fish that survive the illness can shed the virus for more than a month.

Sea lice (Lepeophtheirus salmonis and Caligus sp.) may be mechanical vectors. These parasites could also increase the susceptibility of fish by increasing stress.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 16, 2011, 05:47:37 PM
I see you slowly swaying our way on this topic. ;D ;D

Chris, that would depend on where I started.

"alwaysfishin" has kindly quoted one of my original statements in the second post following your above comment. I thought then, and I think now, that at this point, we are certain that no cases of Infectious Salmon Anemia have ever been identified in BC. I also thought then, and still think that there is a possibility that a precursor virus is present, but that hasn't been determined because no test result has been confirmed by being duplicated, and the virus hasn't been isolated in attempts to culture it. With no known outbreaks of ISA in farmed Atlantics or any other BC species, no confirmation by lab testing of it's presence and disagreement among the experts, it is a bit preliminary to be declaring that ISA has been found in BC.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 16, 2011, 06:06:42 PM
Care to expand on that statement?

What is unconventional about Miller's methods? Why would DFO allow her to use unconventional methods for 30 some years rather than firing her and hiring someone that would use conventional methods? Why would DFO promote her to head of molecular genetics, when she obviously was either incompetent or just wouldn't take direction when told to use conventional methods?

Absolon, I suggest your comment is just an attempt to discredit an honest scientist!

From Miller's own comments, both firsthand and secondhand:

"I clearly believe that there is a virus here that is very similar to ISA virus in Europe, but we really do need to get a fuller sequence to get more information about how similar it is," said Miller.


Her submissions came from research conducted in her Nanaimo, B.C., laboratory. She noted the testing procedures were not standard and differed from another government-funded lab on the East Coast, but suggested her tests could be more sensitive.


Nylund, who has studied the virus for years, described Miller's testing procedures as "a bit strange."

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20111215/salmon-virus-report-111215/#ixzz1gkjkQ33e

As I understand it from the little credible information I've seen, Miller is testing a different segment of the virus DNA than is done in the standard test protocol. I really need to see the transcript and the complete discussion in order to get a better handle on it, but the initial message is that the tests have not yet been authenticated as an accurate method of testing. That obviously needs to be done before the results are authenticated as a valid indication of the presence of the virus or the precursor virus. It really isn't anything complicated: it's just basic scientific method. Another basic principle you seem to not understand is that scientists are supposed to experiment; that's how knowledge is moved forward. Some experiments succeed and some don't. That is decided by testing the method for consistency and correctness of the result, not by some activists who find the results suit their cause. No doubt Miller got her job based on competency, but that doesn't mean that every experiment she tries proves out or that every conclusion she arrive at is true. Her peers will evaluate her results and pass judgment on her techniques; anyone else who claims to be able to do so is just flat out lying.

Tell me, do you ever contribute anything factual to these discussions or is it just your job to go nipping around peoples ankles like a fierce little Pekingese whenever anyone posts something you disagree with?


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 06:10:29 PM
Some interesting points from the link I posted earlier:

Importance:
Infectious salmon anemia (ISA) is one of the most important viral diseases of farmed Atlantic salmon. This highly contagious disease can be insidious, with an initially low mortality rate; however, the cumulative mortality can sometimes exceed 90% if the disease remains unchecked.

Understanding of the epidemiology of ISA is still incomplete, which complicates its control. The reservoirs for the virus are not known, but experiments have shown that several species of salmonids can carry virulent ISA viruses asymptomatically. These viruses might cause outbreaks if they are transmitted to farmed Atlantic salmon. Noncultivable, apparently nonpathogenic, isolates have also been detected in wild salmonids. Small changes in these viruses, analogous to the mutations that allow low pathogenicity avian influenza viruses to become highly pathogenic, may allow them to become more virulent.

Transmission:
ISAV probably infects fish through the gills, but ingestion has not been ruled out. This virus is shed in epidermal mucus, urine, feces and gonadal fluids. In one study, virus shedding was first detected 7 days after inoculation, and rose above the minimum infective dose on day 11, two days before the first deaths occurred. Shedding peaked approximately 15 days after inoculation, when mortalities were high. ISAV also occurs in blood and tissues; tissue wastes from infected fish are infectious. Fish that survive the illness can shed the virus for more than a month.

Sea lice (Lepeophtheirus salmonis and Caligus sp.) may be mechanical vectors. These parasites could also increase the susceptibility of fish by increasing stress.


Thanks for posting Easywater. It was a good article and for us laymen, easier reading .

A lot of dots are starting to be connected. I imagine if an ISA infected sea lice attached itself to a fry, it wouldn't take long to kill it.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 06:33:17 PM
Tell me, do you ever contribute anything factual to these discussions or is it just your job to go nipping around peoples ankles like a fierce little Pekingese whenever anyone posts something you disagree with?


I think the value of the contribution is in the eye of the reader. You have obviously judged my comments rather harshly. Perhaps I've touched a nerve? I want to see the truth come out. The way I see it, you believe you know the truth  (or what you would like the truth to be) and try to discredit anyone that differs from your version.

It's a discussion forum. If you want to participate, expect a little ankle nipping.....  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 16, 2011, 08:14:57 PM
Mark Hume, Globe and Mail today.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/federal-agency-accused-of-intimidation-over-salmon-disease/article2274509/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 08:27:52 PM
Mark Hume, Globe and Mail today.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/federal-agency-accused-of-intimidation-over-salmon-disease/article2274509/

"Dr. Kibenge’s lab in 2007 confirmed the first occurrence of ISA in farmed Atlantic salmon in Chile, where the virus triggered a disease outbreak that killed millions of salmon." But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing....  ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 16, 2011, 08:46:18 PM
exhale alwaysfishin :D  Let this fester for the weekend and wait for Monday when I bet something new will arise ;D
Pretty sure we all are reading the same book, just on different chapters.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 16, 2011, 09:28:43 PM
exhale alwaysfishin :D  Let this fester for the weekend and wait for Monday when I bet something new will arise ;D
Pretty sure we all are reading the same book, just on different chapters.

Are not suggesting that Dr Simon Jones will come on the stand, say there are absolutely no problems and that DFO is really looking out for the wild salmon..... is that the chapter you are on?

I like happy ending chapters, but there will have to be a lot of magic on Monday to be able to make all the incriminating evidence go away.

By the way I do appreciate the concern for my health and I promise to exhale.   ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 16, 2011, 10:46:13 PM
I think the value of the contribution is in the eye of the reader. You have obviously judged my comments rather harshly. Perhaps I've touched a nerve? I want to see the truth come out. The way I see it, you believe you know the truth  (or what you would like the truth to be) and try to discredit anyone that differs from your version.

It's a discussion forum. If you want to participate, expect a little ankle nipping.....  ;D


That's a  prime example of what I'm talking about. You spend a lot of time taking potshots at the messenger and never get around to dealing with the message. I already understand that you disagree. I'd be interested in hearing the facts that support your disagreements with my perspective but I'm really not interested in your characterizations of my motivation; they don't contribute anything to moving the discussion forward.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 16, 2011, 11:58:04 PM
"Dr. Kibenge’s lab in 2007 confirmed the first occurrence of ISA in farmed Atlantic salmon in Chile, where the virus triggered a disease outbreak that killed millions of salmon." But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing....  ???

Who said that? Got a link?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 17, 2011, 07:14:51 AM
From Alex:


http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 17, 2011, 07:40:22 AM
Documents released for the Cohen Commission have revealed that Infectious salmon Anemia has been found in Genetically Engineered Salmon at a site in Prince Edward Island. Bcause the site is land based and isolated from the ocean environment the question is how were these fish contaminated with ISA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVh4TRey0OE&feature=colike
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 17, 2011, 07:42:40 AM
Person in clip above is Catherine Stewart of Living Oceans.


Also Alex on CBC news.
http://youtu.be/z0hIZ96_Y04
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 17, 2011, 08:05:34 AM
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/sci_tech/findings-of-virus-in-bc-salmon-brought-government-pressure-scientists-135747363.html

Gosh and a flossed fish in the photo too. ::)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 17, 2011, 08:09:44 AM
That's a  prime example of what I'm talking about. You spend a lot of time taking potshots at the messenger and never get around to dealing with the message. I already understand that you disagree. I'd be interested in hearing the facts that support your disagreements with my perspective but I'm really not interested in your characterizations of my motivation; they don't contribute anything to moving the discussion forward.

I understand that you would like to have an intellectual debate on the science. You can't possibly think that I'm that naive, to debate something that I don't understand to nearly the level you appear to know it.  ???

What you are apparently naive about (or choose to ignore) is that there is politics and money involved. It's becoming increasingly obvious from the information coming out of the hearings that politics and money have trumped the science, to the point that the science becomes irrelevant. When I see DFO scientists discrediting long term qualified scientists because their science doesn't fit the direction of the governments politics .......  well the science becomes somewhat irrelevant. Hopefully after the Cohen reports come out, they will get to the bottom of the BS and we can get back to good science and implement the policies necessary to protect the wild salmon.

So get off the whining about having your heals nipped and the complaining about how I'm not playing fair, and stick to your arguments that all the science is questionable if it doesn't fit the fish farm agenda. Because as long as you do that you are an easy target.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 17, 2011, 08:30:38 AM
Who said that? Got a link?

The line with quotation marks was from the article Chris posted in the previous post.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 17, 2011, 09:14:16 AM
The line with quotation marks was from the article Chris posted in the previous post.

Obviously I'm not questioning the statement of fact quoted. It is this statement of yours that I am questioning:

But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing...

I'd like to know who at the DFO and the CFIA made those statements, and I'd like to see where you found them recorded.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 17, 2011, 09:21:57 AM
The pacific and atlantic ocean share many like and identical species.  Albacore tuna, yellow fin, bluefin, hallibut, blue sharks, are just a small example off the top of my head.   It would only make sense to me that there may be similar species of plants, plankton and viruses as well. 
  From the get go this thread and the issue has been grossly mislabeled.  I feel it should have been labeled more like "new(to us) virus discovered similar to ISA but we no nothing really about it" because this is more what the situation is.  The activists are really blowing this up while the opportunity exists and they are backing it up with a conspiracy theory to boot.  Its funny that they use the term "deadly salmon virus" along side with "has killed massive salmon populations" and it is only Atlantic Farm salmon stocks they are talking about.  "Chile had its salmon stock decimated"?  Actually they did not.  It was the farm stock that was lost to this.  Very miss leading.

  Who is to say that this is is not a naturally occurring virus that has been in the pacific for tens of thousands of years?
  Who is to say that this was not delivered with a atlantic fry or an atlantic lobster delivery to the pacific way back in the day. 
  Who is to say that it did not come on the belly of a ship.
  Who is to say that it will be the end of our pacific hatchery and wild stocks.
  If it is so deadly why have the Atlantic farms not all dyed off, or even one farm?
  If it is so deadly why did 30 million sockeye return.
  If it is everywhere and deadly why did the stamp have such a good sockeye year this year?
  If it is so deadly and has been here for 25 years or longer why are there any salmon anywhere?
  If it is so easily found then surly alaska will have it too and their salmon ranching practices seem to be pumping out product as far as I know?
 
  There are many questions that remain unanswered about this virus that we know little about yet the activist are jumping around freaking out speeding fear based on unproven facts.  Shame on them again.  They do this over and over again. 
 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 17, 2011, 09:42:21 AM
Obviously I'm not questioning the statement of fact quoted. It is this statement of yours that I am questioning:

But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing...

I'd like to know who at the DFO and the CFIA made those statements, and I'd like to see where you found them recorded.

There are no quotation marks so you need to assume that they are my comments.

CFIA, DFO and the government have dismissed Dr Kibenge's analysis of ISA being present in the pacific salmon samples that he analyzed. To dismiss the scientific analysis of an obvious expert suggests that; "Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing."  Not only did they dismiss his results but they have attempted to publicly humiliate him, and Miller, another expert in her field.

Of course the other possibility is that DFO and CFIA are discrediting the results because they know that the Kibenge and Miller analysis are correct, and they don't fit the message the government wants the public to hear. ..... but that would never happen in politics now, would it?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 17, 2011, 09:52:40 AM
I understand that you would like to have an intellectual debate on the science. You can't possibly think that I'm that naive, to debate something that I don't understand to nearly the level you appear to know it.  ???

What you are apparently naive about (or choose to ignore) is that there is politics and money involved. It's becoming increasingly obvious from the information coming out of the hearings that politics and money have trumped the science, to the point that the science becomes irrelevant. When I see DFO scientists discrediting long term qualified scientists because their science doesn't fit the direction of the governments politics .......  well the science becomes somewhat irrelevant. Hopefully after the Cohen reports come out, they will get to the bottom of the BS and we can get back to good science and implement the policies necessary to protect the wild salmon.

So get off the whining about having your heals nipped and the complaining about how I'm not playing fair, and stick to your arguments that all the science is questionable if it doesn't fit the fish farm agenda. Because as long as you do that you are an easy target.

Now that is funny. You acknowledge that you don't know the subject well enough to discuss it, but at the same time, are convinced you have all the right answers and prove it by attacking the bearers of dissenting messages and making up your own facts where required.

This situation has blown up precisely because politics and money are attempting to displace and discredit the science that doesn't provide the conclusion the interest groups would like it to. The argument appears to be that because the scientific method doesn't support the conclusions we have already drawn, we should disregard the scientific approach. For all of the noise and the attempts at management of public opinion to the contrary, the science can't conclude that the disease is present and can't yet be certain about the origin and nature of the virus that has been showing up in ghost positives. The public is being sold a bill of goods that can't be substantiated in an organized campaign by a well funded lobby.

What you don't appear to understand is that the science is never irrelevant; that without it the problem will never be defined and understood. What you are being told by those reactionaries you support is that science is cut and dried, that there is never disagreement so someone must be lying. What is really happening is that the state of the knowledge is being refined and expanded and the truth is being defined by hypothesis and experiment. The problem will never be solved by activist campaigns pushing erroneous solutions based on incomplete knowledge and premature conclusions and anyone who claims differently either doesn't understand reality or is a liar.

Fairness isn't an issue with your posts and you can spend as much time being an ankle-biter as you choose. The rest of us, or at least most of the rest of us, will stick to dealing with the subject without having to reduce the level of the discussion to one you can function on.



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 17, 2011, 09:59:16 AM
There are no quotation marks so you need to assume that they are my comments.

CFIA, DFO and the government have dismissed Dr Kibenge's analysis of ISA being present in the pacific salmon samples that he analyzed. To dismiss the scientific analysis of an obvious expert suggests that; "Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing."  Not only did they dismiss his results but they have attempted to publicly humiliate him, and Miller, another expert in her field.

Of course the other possibility is that DFO and CFIA are discrediting the results because they know that the Kibenge and Miller analysis are correct, and they don't fit the message the government wants the public to hear. ..... but that would never happen in politics now, would it?


If those are your own comments, the statement "But according to DFO and CFIA" is not factually correct. That is your opinion and should be identified as such. Any other presentation is dishonest.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on December 17, 2011, 12:08:58 PM
what this lady articulates,is exactly my sentiments.

forget all the polarised politics, forget the "does it affect my style of angling crowd": look at the big picture. Do we want to be the generation that has future generations pointing fingers at?. This goes beyond sport!

DFO and CFIA has a lot to answer for, if they consider that this should be kept secret , what else is hidden in regards to fish or food stocks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVh4TRey0OE&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2b6772eFAAAAAAAAAAA

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 17, 2011, 12:57:52 PM
This whole virus issue is a fascinating scientific play; Mark Hume has probably already started writing a book about it. But I think it’s difficult for someone without a background in science to understand what’s going on with all the conflicting reports, media hype and twisted anti-farm bloggers. If they could give the scientists the resources and time they need to do the work, and keep the lawyers, lay activists, bureaucrats and politicians out of it, all would be revealed. Clearly there are some methodological problems here with tracking and identifying viruses that they need to resolve.

The cutting edge of science always has frayed ends and tattered egos, and sometimes a little blood. Contested science is never clean and there will be far more people trying to prove your novel ideas wrong than right. That’s the scientific method and bruised egos and hot debates are par for the course. It’s not the pasteurized version you see on TV. If Miller’s methods are novel and unknown to the experts in the field, it’s up to her to prove their accuracy using the proper scientific methods and peer-review and publish it. That’s perfectly normal for science and she is no doubt working on it. It has nothing to do with discrediting her personally. If Kibenge doesn’t like having his lab techniques and results scrutinized; no one would, but he knew it was coming if the Moncton and Swedish labs couldn’t confirm his data. It's not discrediting him, just his data or methods if it can be proven. This is perfectly normal science; it’s just not usually done in the glare of the public.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 17, 2011, 05:31:01 PM
Now that is funny. You acknowledge that you don't know the subject well enough to discuss it, but at the same time, are convinced you have all the right answers and prove it by attacking the bearers of dissenting messages and making up your own facts where required.

This situation has blown up precisely because politics and money are attempting to displace and discredit the science that doesn't provide the conclusion the interest groups would like it to. The argument appears to be that because the scientific method doesn't support the conclusions we have already drawn, we should disregard the scientific approach. For all of the noise and the attempts at management of public opinion to the contrary, the science can't conclude that the disease is present and can't yet be certain about the origin and nature of the virus that has been showing up in ghost positives. The public is being sold a bill of goods that can't be substantiated in an organized campaign by a well funded lobby.

What you don't appear to understand is that the science is never irrelevant; that without it the problem will never be defined and understood. What you are being told by those reactionaries you support is that science is cut and dried, that there is never disagreement so someone must be lying. What is really happening is that the state of the knowledge is being refined and expanded and the truth is being defined by hypothesis and experiment. The problem will never be solved by activist campaigns pushing erroneous solutions based on incomplete knowledge and premature conclusions and anyone who claims differently either doesn't understand reality or is a liar.

Fairness isn't an issue with your posts and you can spend as much time being an ankle-biter as you choose. The rest of us, or at least most of the rest of us, will stick to dealing with the subject without having to reduce the level of the discussion to one you can function on.


Your whole argument reminds me of the tobacco argument.

The tobacco companies still insist that their science proves that tobacco is not harmful and that it is not addictive. They have presented their evidence numerous times in court. The science becomes irrelevant when there is no political will to make changes.

I personally believe nicotine is both harmful and addictive even though I don't understand the science behind it. Thankfully activists are influencing change to the point where politicians are setting policies that limit exposure to second hand smoke.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 17, 2011, 05:46:13 PM
Its the old tobacco comparison again.  For the love of god I hope you are cuttin and copying that one by now.  We have seen it so many times.  Its pretty standard activist statement and it is so old obviously not a contending argument.   You pull it out like its you ace up your sleeve but it just is so see through.  
I know you think your fightin the good fight but at lest come up with something new once and a while.



Dont forget to donate.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 17, 2011, 06:25:15 PM
Its the old tobacco comparison again.  For the love of god I hope you are cuttin and copying that one by now.  We have seen it so many times.  Its pretty standard activist statement and it is so old obviously not a contending argument.   You pull it out like its you ace up your sleeve but it just is so see through.   
I know you think your fightin the good fight but at lest come up with something new once and a while.

Dont forget to donate.

 ;D Now that is a funny post! Thanks.  ;D

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on December 17, 2011, 09:44:42 PM
and as if DFO's -CFIA's credability or impartiality was not in question, it sure as hell is now.

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/government-email-makes-waves-at-salmon-inquiry-78
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 18, 2011, 07:23:29 AM
and as if DFO's -CFIA's credability or impartiality was not in question, it sure as hell is now.

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/government-email-makes-waves-at-salmon-inquiry-78
Thanks for posting, I wonder how some will now try to dispute this evidence of an attempted cover up.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 18, 2011, 07:27:11 AM
John Werring of David Suzuki Foundarion at Cohen on Friday.

http://youtu.be/N_wSCYVtaIc
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 18, 2011, 09:36:36 AM
Your whole argument reminds me of the tobacco argument.

The tobacco companies still insist that their science proves that tobacco is not harmful and that it is not addictive. They have presented their evidence numerous times in court. The science becomes irrelevant when there is no political will to make changes.

I personally believe nicotine is both harmful and addictive even though I don't understand the science behind it. Thankfully activists are influencing change to the point where politicians are setting policies that limit exposure to second hand smoke.

Your analogy doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There is more than sufficient scientific and clinical evidence to irrefutably link cigarette smoke to high mortality from cancer. The only place that evidence linking BC salmon farms to any serious problem exists is in the minds of the reactionaries, and it is neither clinical nor scientific. There has to be a basis in fact to justify taking action. It is the only way one can discriminate between truth and agenda driven activism. That basis comes from establishing facts rationally and scientifically, not from emotionally driven, uninformed public opinion.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 18, 2011, 09:53:34 AM
and as if DFO's -CFIA's credability or impartiality was not in question, it sure as hell is now.

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/government-email-makes-waves-at-salmon-inquiry-78

What do you expect?

Morton chose the venue, a public relations war, when she and Routledge, rather than reporting the results of their tests to the CFIA for confirmation as required by law, instead held a press conference and announced to the world that ISA had been found in BC and was brought there by salmon farming.
She then leaked the unconfirmed results of another set of tests to an associate who provided them to the New York Times for publication in spite of being ordered not to, again claiming that ISA had been found in BC and was brought there by salmon farms. Included in the campaign were the usual unsubstantiated allegations of incompetence, bias and dishonesty against the DFO. At no point in her campaign did she acknowledge that the results were unconfirmed, that scientific accuracy required confirmation or that rather than there being evidence that the virus came from farms, there was evidence that it likely hadn't.

The DFO was successful in countering the campaign by presenting evidence based on further testing. That testing was scientific and based on the world wide protocol for testing and was repeated in several labs. I'm not sure what the issue is when someone at the DFO identifies the campaign being waged against them as exactly what it is and that they express satisfaction that they were able to counter it by presenting scientific evidence.

It's a bit of a stretch to call that bias and evidence of lack of impartiality
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 18, 2011, 01:23:27 PM
Your analogy doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There is more than sufficient scientific and clinical evidence to irrefutably link cigarette smoke to high mortality from cancer. The only place that evidence linking BC salmon farms to any serious problem exists is in the minds of the reactionaries, and it is neither clinical nor scientific. There has to be a basis in fact to justify taking action. It is the only way one can discriminate between truth and agenda driven activism. That basis comes from establishing facts rationally and scientifically, not from emotionally driven, uninformed public opinion.

The analogy is valid.  You will not find any tobacco companies admitting their product causes harm, probably because it would admit their liability.  This is in spite of scientific evidence to the contrary. Take the tobacco issue back as little as 15 years when there was limited science proving nicotine caused harm. Many were convinced it was harmful and lobbied to have it identified as such. They were not willing to wait for the science to confirm what they were certain was a problem.

Another example is asbestos. Canada has outlawed all asbestos for use in Canada yet they continue to export it to countries that don't have those laws. This is also in spite of the science that proves it is harmful!

The point of my analogy was to illustrate that an in depth knowledge of a particular science is not the only thing you need in order to be able to contribute to a discussion. A simple application of common sense and logic is sufficient.

Logic and common sense suggest the salmon feedlots are harmful to wild salmon. Waiting till DFO and the fish farms admit the same thing will not likely happen and if it does it may be too late for the wild salmon.

Hopefully more folks will participate in this discussion even if they only have common sense to contribute.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 18, 2011, 01:29:02 PM

Morton chose the venue, a public relations war, when she and Routledge, rather than reporting the results of their tests to the CFIA for confirmation as required by law, instead held a press conference and announced to the world that ISA had been found in BC and was brought there by salmon farming.
She then leaked the unconfirmed results of another set of tests to an associate who provided them to the New York Times for publication in spite of being ordered not to, again claiming that ISA had been found in BC and was brought there by salmon farms. Included in the campaign were the usual unsubstantiated allegations of incompetence, bias and dishonesty against the DFO. At no point in her campaign did she acknowledge that the results were unconfirmed, that scientific accuracy required confirmation or that rather than there being evidence that the virus came from farms, there was evidence that it likely hadn't.

The DFO was successful in countering the campaign by presenting evidence based on further testing. That testing was scientific and based on the world wide protocol for testing and was repeated in several labs. I'm not sure what the issue is when someone at the DFO identifies the campaign being waged against them as exactly what it is and that they express satisfaction that they were able to counter it by presenting scientific evidence.

Show me some evidence that anything that Morton or Rutledge did was against the law! If anything they did was against the law, they would have been charged. That's how the laws work in Canada....   

What they did was make the public aware of the virus that is present in the Pacific waters. A virus that has devastated fish farms in Chile and Norway. It's something that any concerned citizen would do given the knowledge that Morton and Rutledge have.

The bias and dishonesty that is present at DFO is obvious as the internal email leaked to the press illustrates: "It is clear that we are turning the PR tide in our favour, and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokes at the tech briefing," CFIA B.C. manager Joseph Beres wrote. "One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war, also."

That email illustrates that their "war" is to convince the public that there isn't any problem, rather than focusing on ensuring that there is no problem. Part of their campaign has been to discredit the analysis of 2 very qualified scientists without so much as an explanation as to why their results differed from CFIA's tests.

This is why the public has every right to question their credibility on any scientific tests that either DFO or CFIA are supposedly conducting.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 18, 2011, 03:59:38 PM
The analogy is valid.  You will not find any tobacco companies admitting their product causes harm, probably because it would admit their liability.  This is in spite of scientific evidence to the contrary. Take the tobacco issue back as little as 15 years when there was limited science proving nicotine caused harm. Many were convinced it was harmful and lobbied to have it identified as such. They were not willing to wait for the science to confirm what they were certain was a problem.

Another example is asbestos. Canada has outlawed all asbestos for use in Canada yet they continue to export it to countries that don't have those laws. This is also in spite of the science that proves it is harmful!

The point of my analogy was to illustrate that an in depth knowledge of a particular science is not the only thing you need in order to be able to contribute to a discussion. A simple application of common sense and logic is sufficient.

Logic and common sense suggest the salmon feedlots are harmful to wild salmon. Waiting till DFO and the fish farms admit the same thing will not likely happen and if it does it may be too late for the wild salmon.

Hopefully more folks will participate in this discussion even if they only have common sense to contribute.


But the critical point is that the tobacco companies don't set the policy. Government does, and it does so based on scientific and clinical evidence that irrefutably establish the harm done by tobacco use.

Anyone is a welcome participant in a discussion provided they are prepared to both listen and contribute instead of trying to shout down all opposition. Snide personal remarks aren't a successful way to convince people of anything.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Every Day on December 18, 2011, 04:08:16 PM
What they did was make the public aware of the virus that is present in the Pacific waters. A virus that has devastated fish farms in Chile and Norway. It's something that any concerned citizen would do given the knowledge that Morton and Rutledge have.



2 points here.

1) Devastated FISH FARMS, not wild salmon. Not to say that it won't, but I once again think the farms are more at risk here than wild pacific's.

2) A virus that may not be (and probably isn't) the same as the ones in Norway and Chile. Virus' have many different strains, they have already found 5 different strains of ISA, including one that is none pathogenic (none disease causing). I am convinced this one has been here for as long as salmon have been around, it's just never been tested for since it doesn't seem to be a strain that causes disease (why test for something that isn't hurting anything). Its just Morton and the activists that need something new since they are definitely losing the battle.

That email illustrates that their "war" is to convince the public that there isn't any problem, rather than focusing on ensuring that there is no problem. Part of their campaign has been to discredit the analysis of 2 very qualified scientists without so much as an explanation as to why their results differed from CFIA's tests.

It really quite annoys me when people say this and take this as true fact. I guess everyone just likes to ignore the truth though. The fact that Morton has a degree in JOURNALISM, just because someone gives her a honorary PHd doesn't mean she is a scientist, in fact it doesn't even mean she knows how to do proper sampling (as seen in pics posted earlier) or proper testing. She sure as hell knows how to write well enough to capture a large audience and make them believe what she wants them to.

Routledge also, not a scientist (although closer). Last time I checked, making math models without proper data to input wasn't science. True he is a brilliant statistic/mathematician, but he also doesn't know much about salmon.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 18, 2011, 04:39:47 PM
Dr Craig Orr.
http://youtu.be/Jf1SPvy6E4M
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 18, 2011, 07:32:30 PM
Show me some evidence that anything that Morton or Rutledge did was against the law! If anything they did was against the law, they would have been charged. That's how the laws work in Canada....   

What they did was make the public aware of the virus that is present in the Pacific waters. A virus that has devastated fish farms in Chile and Norway. It's something that any concerned citizen would do given the knowledge that Morton and Rutledge have.

The bias and dishonesty that is present at DFO is obvious as the internal email leaked to the press illustrates: "It is clear that we are turning the PR tide in our favour, and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokes at the tech briefing," CFIA B.C. manager Joseph Beres wrote. "One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war, also."

That email illustrates that their "war" is to convince the public that there isn't any problem, rather than focusing on ensuring that there is no problem. Part of their campaign has been to discredit the analysis of 2 very qualified scientists without so much as an explanation as to why their results differed from CFIA's tests.

This is why the public has every right to question their credibility on any scientific tests that either DFO or CFIA are supposedly conducting.


Nobody has discredited the scientists or their analysis. Kibenge's results weren't repeatable and he couldn't isolate the virus. He admitted as much. Miller obtained her results with a test that has not yet been established to be accurate or reliable. She admitted as much. In such cases, the results can't be interpreted to mean what someone wants them to mean. They must be interpreted as inconclusive and that is exactly what was done. The door is open for someone to present repeatable results and isolate the virus and for Miller to prove the reliability and repeatability of her tests, but until that is done the presence of the virus is not confirmed.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 19, 2011, 07:52:06 AM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"What's Cohen On?" (Superheroes 4 Salmon, 17th December): http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/what’s-cohen

 

"Joseph Beres, CFIA: "we are turning the PR tide to our favour"" (Salmon Warriors, 17th December): http://salmonwarriors.blogspot.com/2011/12/joseph-beres-cfia-we-are-turning-pr.html?mid=5572285

 

"Fishyleaks IV: Transcript from Day 1 of the ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission" (Fishyleaks, 17th December): http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/fishyleaks

 

"Government email makes waves at salmon inquiry" (CBC News, 17th December): http://www.cbc.ca/m/rich/canada/story/2011/12/17/bc-cohen-commission-salmon.html

 

"Cohen Commission; DFO unqualified, ineffective, secretive, backward, resistive and uncooperative" (You Tube, 17th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_wSCYVtaIc

 

"Cohen Commission Reveals ISA Found in Canadian Genetically Engineered Fish" (You Tube, 17th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVh4TRey0OE

 

"Scottish salmon in Co-op Christmas food scare" (The Press & Journal, 17th December): http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2562010

 

"The Canadian Fish Health Agency wins the war .... against us" (Alexandra Morton, 16th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/the-canadian-fish-health-agency-wins-the-war-against-us.html

 

"SALMONGATE! Testimony today and yesterday at Cohen Commission demonstrating DFO and Canada Food Inspection Agency willingly hiding salmon disease from public" (The Salmon Guy, 16th December): http://www.salmonguy.org/?p=4710

 

"Cohen Aquaculture Daily" (Watershed Watch, 16th December): http://www.watershed-watch.org/2011/12/cohen-aquaculture-daily-december-16-2011/

 

"New York Times and others reporting on ISA issue and Cohen Commission special hearings" (The Salmon Guy, 16th December): http://www.salmonguy.org/?p=4701

 

"Cohen Commission hears explosive testimony on salmon disease" (The Tyee, 16th December): http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Environment/2011/12/16/salmon_disease/

 

"Federal agency accused of intimidation over salmon disease" (The Globe & Mail, 16th December): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/federal-agency-accused-of-intimidation-over-salmon-disease/article2274509/

 

"Salmon virus find, bad for job security/Findings of virus in BC salmon brought government pressure: scientists" (Castanet/Canadian Press/Global News, 16th December): http://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/68616/Salmon-virus-find-bad-for-job-security

 

"Pacific salmon virus fears may be overblown, Canadian scientists say" (Alaska Dispatch, 16th December): http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/pacific-salmon-virus-fears-may-be-overblown-canadian-scientists-say

 

"Cohen Commission ISA Bombshell" (You Tube, 16th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdrS6nsI2Ls

 

"Deadly HSMI virus found on BC fish farm" (You Tube, 16th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwBcKqpN2E

 

"Genetically engineered salmon grilled at Senate Commerce hearing" (Friends of the Earth, 16th December): http://www.foe.org/news/blog/2011-12-genetically-engineered-salmon-grilled-at-senate-comm

"ISA: Explosive Evidence Inaugurates Cohen Reconvening" (Pacific Free Press, 16th December): http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1/10449-isa-explosive-evidence-inaugurates-cohen-reconvening.html

 

"Salmon farm receives BAP certification" (FIS, 15th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&country=0&special=&monthyear=&day=&id=48532&ndb=1&df=0

 

"Alexandra Morton on CBC News" (CBC News/Salmon Are Sacred, 15th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0hIZ96_Y04&feature=youtu.be   

 

 

Note the final day of the ISA hearing at the Cohen Commission is on Monday 19th December (9am start) - details online here

 

Follow via Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=812895354&ref=tn_tnmn#!/events/263406340380314/

 

 

Read the leaked a transcript of Day 1 and a Canadian Government report detailing over 100 positive tests for ISA in farmed Atlantic and wild Pacific salmon – online via 'Fishyleaks'

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia"

 

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 19, 2011, 07:56:52 AM

  Last day of hearings on dwindling B.C. salmon stocks to focus on deadly virus
  By Sean Sullivan, The Province December 18, 2011  Comment 5 •Story•Photos ( 1 )
  The Cohen commission, which concludes Monday, is expected to hear about a deadly virus that may have played a role in the dramatic decline of the Fraser River's wild sockeye salmon population.Photograph by: Ric Ernst, PNG FilesHearings for a federal inquiry into Fraser River sockeye salmon are to conclude Monday as lawyers are expected to grill government scientists about detection of a deadly virus in the Pacific Northwest.

The Cohen commission, which is investigating the dramatic decline of the Fraser’s wild sockeye salmon population, was extended by three days this month after revelations this fall that B.C. salmon had tested positive for a deadly virus that has decimated farmed Atlantic salmon stocks elsewhere.

Researchers at Simon Fraser University in October announced evidence of the infectious salmon anemia virus (ISAv) was found in two of 48 sockeye smolts collected in B.C.’s Central Coast. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency later denied the findings, saying it had been unable to confirm the virus through its testing.

On Friday, the commission heard that scientists who identified ISAv in wild salmon — Fred Kiberge, a world expert on ISA at the University of Prince Edward Island, and Kristi Miller, who runs a DFO molecular genetics research lab — have felt ostracized and under attack since making waves with their research.

“It doesn’t seem that the government wants it known that there’s a virus,” said Craig Orr, the direction of Watershed Watch Salmon Society, on Sunday. “They’ve been really fighting back against this perception that ISAv has been found in British Columbia.”

Despite the damage ISAv has caused to farmed stocks, there is no evidence the virus harms wild salmon.

On Friday, Miller also caused a stir when she announced the first finding of a deadly virus that causes Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation (HSMI) in farmed Clayoquot Sound chinook salmon. Some of the fish, which were studied under DFO funding, also tested positive for ISAv.

The final day of the Cohen commission hearings begins at 10 a.m. at the Morris J. Wosk Centre for Dialogue.

ssullivan@theprovince.com


Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Last+hearings+dwindling+salmon+stocks+focus+deadly+virus/5879826/story.html#ixzz1gzqqWkA5
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 19, 2011, 08:03:12 AM
http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/Exh%202083%20-%2001_%20EV_CAN_0023_011000_CAN174359.pdf
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 19, 2011, 08:45:31 AM
http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/Exh%202083%20-%2001_%20EV_CAN_0023_011000_CAN174359.pdf

I just read this e-mail sent from DFO to CFIA Nov 27th, 2009 and I am in absolute shock!!  :o  :o  :o   In the e-mail DFO states clearly that ISAV has been found in samples that were tested in the DFO labs in Prince Edward Island. These labs are recognized by CFIA as the National Reference Lab for ISAV.

Seems pretty clear that ISAV was found in a DFO lab in 2009 and CFIA was made aware of it.

Didn't DFO and CFIA come out with a public announcement just a few weeks ago that stated that ISAV has never been found in Canada?  :o  Does this mean that ISAV is in Canada and DFO and CFIA have been lying to us and covering this up??   :o


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 19, 2011, 09:37:57 AM
Actually no, they didn't. It would be rather silly of them to deny something that is common knowledge.

A little research to inform yourself before posting seems to be in order. You could start by entering into Google "Bay of Fundy 1996 ISA".
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 19, 2011, 09:48:02 AM
Actually no, they didn't. It would be rather silly of them to deny something that is common knowledge.

A little research to inform yourself before posting seems to be in order. You could start by entering into Google "Bay of Fundy 1996 ISA".

Is that the best spin you can come up with??     ::)  ;D

ISA was found in the Bay of Fundy in 1996. The memo from DFO to CFIA is dated 2009.....   Bit of a time lag, don't you think??

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 19, 2011, 01:51:45 PM
All I can do here is shake my head; I can't make heads nor tails out of your last two posts. I haven't a clue what you are trying to say.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 19, 2011, 01:53:02 PM
DFO lies......   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdrS6nsI2Ls&feature=BFa&list=UUgekZUmH4AduSPtrITRtuoA&lf=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdrS6nsI2Ls&feature=BFa&list=UUgekZUmH4AduSPtrITRtuoA&lf=plcp)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 19, 2011, 01:55:11 PM
Apparently someone does.

Could you post a link to the statement DFO and CFIA made claiming that the ISAv has never been found in Canada.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 19, 2011, 01:56:49 PM
HMSI virus is worse than ISA virus because it is proven to be transferable from farmed to wild salmon. It is present in BC waters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwBcKqpN2E&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwBcKqpN2E&feature=related)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 19, 2011, 02:02:25 PM
Just to catch your eye and point it at the edit to my last post.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 19, 2011, 02:16:07 PM
Apparently someone does.

Could you post a link to the statement DFO and CFIA made claiming that the ISAv has never been found in Canada.



You could start by entering into Google "Bay of Fundy 1996 ISA"    "DFO lies".    :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 19, 2011, 02:42:03 PM
Thanks for an enlightening conversation.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 19, 2011, 09:22:28 PM


Mark Hume on the Cohen inquiry.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/hardest-work-still-to-come-as-cohen-hearings-conclude/article2277224/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A+RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2277224
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 19, 2011, 11:59:21 PM
For those who prefer their information unfiltered and without all the extra sugar, the transcript of the Dec 15th Cohen hearing has been leaked and is available for viewing and saving here:

http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/Transcript%2015%20December%202011.pdf.

It includes testimony by Miller, Kibenge, Gagne and Nylund and for those with the patience and the interest, is worth the read.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 20, 2011, 11:13:52 AM
Hello All

I have given an overview of a little what I learned at the ISA virus hearings of the Cohen Commission on my blog. I will post more later, but this is describes why government cannot be trusted with salmon farms.

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com

http://www.salmonaresacred.org

I hope all of you are enjoying yuletide season,

Alexandra Morton


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 20, 2011, 11:35:00 AM
A comparison of what Morton learned from the hearings compared to what I've learned form reading just a single day of it is quite revealing.

I would highly recommend that anyone who wants to be truly informed should read the transcript. There is considerably more involved with each of the issues than what Morton learned or what Staniford shouts at you in videos or what the media has reported.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on December 20, 2011, 12:54:07 PM
Thanx for posting that Absolon very informative. Funny how things get respun by certain interest groups, and the media sucks it all up....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 20, 2011, 01:47:10 PM
Very interesting read, thanks. Takes a while to get the French translation before they can post the public version on the Cohen website (we are a bilingual country after all).
One of the problems with Millers emerging data is it still has go through the scientific peer review process so conclusions could change. You can see a bit of it when Nyland started questioning her about her methods, her pre-amplification process, and some codon irregularities in the sequences. Tough for her to be baring her data and preliminary thoughts and scientific soul without the rigours of peer review to back it up.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 20, 2011, 03:27:59 PM
Though I'm no expert by any stretch, Nylund's questioning stood out for me as well and I didn't think it was satisfactorily addressed. The fact that the primers were contributing to the sequences obtained and the sequencing was substituting for a positive control in calibrating the test and confirmation of identification was based on that sequencing seems to create a weak point in the logical process that requires attention.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 20, 2011, 04:20:33 PM
Wow, 3 pro fish farmers slapping each other on the back in victory without actually saying anything of consequence.

Here's what I got out of what I have been able to read so far:

DFO dismissed ISAv positives because the virus could not be cultured (grown in a petri dish) when it is widely accepted that ISAv cannot be cultured from wild fish samples (EG: Sockeye).

They have been sampling the livers of wild Pacific salmon (non-Atlantics) but they don't really know where ISAv lives in wild Pacific salmon so they are just guessing as to whether they are sampling the proper tissue.

It turns out that the different labs that test for ISAv use different methods - they use different "primers" (genetic information amplifiers) and test different segments of the RNA (genetic information) molecule.

One of the things that really stands out to me is the failure of the fish farm companies to supply fish to Miller for testing when push came to shove after all of them agreed to do it near the beginning of the Cohen enquiry.

What appears to be happening is that the virus can live in wild Pacific salmon (carriers / reservoirs) without any consequences - other than passing it on to Altantics which get infected with the ISA disease. The choice of using Atlantics as a farmed fish is really unfortunate.

ISAv is similar to the "flu" - it is a virus that can be passed from one fish to another through a number of possible ways.
ISA disease is carried by the virus and causes a fish's red blood cells to become damaged and they die from a lack of oxygen (anemia).

ISA info from Wikipedia: The liver and spleen may be swollen, congested or partially already dead. The circulatory system may stop working, and the blood may be contaminated with dead blood cells. Red blood cells still present often burst easily and the numbers of immature and damaged blood cells are increased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_salmon_anemia_virus
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 20, 2011, 04:32:59 PM
Good on you for actually taking the time to read it.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 20, 2011, 05:14:37 PM
Wow, 3 pro fish farmers slapping each other on the back in victory without actually saying anything of consequence.

Here's what I got out of what I have been able to read so far:

DFO dismissed ISAv positives because the virus could not be cultured (grown in a petri dish) when it is widely accepted that ISAv cannot be cultured from wild fish samples (EG: Sockeye).

They have been sampling the livers of wild Pacific salmon (non-Atlantics) but they don't really know where ISAv lives in wild Pacific salmon so they are just guessing as to whether they are sampling the proper tissue.

It turns out that the different labs that test for ISAv use different methods - they use different "primers" (genetic information amplifiers) and test different segments of the RNA (genetic information) molecule.

One of the things that really stands out to me is the failure of the fish farm companies to supply fish to Miller for testing when push came to shove after all of them agreed to do it near the beginning of the Cohen enquiry.

What appears to be happening is that the virus can live in wild Pacific salmon (carriers / reservoirs) without any consequences - other than passing it on to Altantics which get infected with the ISA disease. The choice of using Atlantics as a farmed fish is really unfortunate.

ISAv is similar to the "flu" - it is a virus that can be passed from one fish to another through a number of possible ways.
ISA disease is carried by the virus and causes a fish's red blood cells to become damaged and they die from a lack of oxygen (anemia).

ISA info from Wikipedia: The liver and spleen may be swollen, congested or partially already dead. The circulatory system may stop working, and the blood may be contaminated with dead blood cells. Red blood cells still present often burst easily and the numbers of immature and damaged blood cells are increased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_salmon_anemia_virus


Thanks Easywater. Nice way to condense it.

Your power of observation is also uncanny!   ;D  ;D  "Wow, 3 pro fish farmers slapping each other on the back in victory without actually saying anything of consequence."  .... although I'm still looking to find the evidence of any victory.....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 21, 2011, 09:39:35 AM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Salmon feedlots articles from around planet earth" (Legacy, January 2012): http://issuu.com/steelhead-salmon-society/docs/legacy112

 

"Cohen Commission: Intensive probe to test nearly 8,000 B.C. salmon for disease" (The Globe & Mail, 21st December): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/intensive-probe-to-test-nearly-8000-bc-salmon-for-disease/article2278794/

 

"Unfit Salmon and ‘Plain Old Darwinian Selection’" (The New York Times, 21st December): http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/unfit-salmon-and-plain-old-darwinian-selection/

 

"Local activists join province-wide wild salmon protest: Confusion, controversy over salmon anemia virus" (Lillooet News, 21st December): http://www.lillooetnews.net/article/20111221/LILLOOET0101/312219984/-1/lillooet/local-activists-join-province-wide-wild-salmon-protest

 

"Wild Salmon advocates speak out against DFO" (Lillooet News, 21st December): http://www.lillooetnews.net/article/20111221/LILLOOET0602/312219992/-1/lillooet/wild-salmon-advocates-speak-out-against-dfo

 

"Government should not be subsidizing GE salmon" (The Times Standard, 21st December): http://www.times-standard.com/guest_opinion/ci_19591609

 

"Salmon Virus Testing Ban Suggested" (CBC, 20th December): http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/12/20/technology-cohen-salmon-virus.html

 

"Damien Gillis Discusses Cohen Commission and ISA Virus on CBC's Early Edition"  (The Common Sense Canadian, 20th December):

http://thecanadian.org/k2/item/1232-damien-cbc-cohen-commission-dec-19

 

"Fish Flu Found in Clayoquot Salmon: Dr. Kristi Miller finds ISA virus in Creative Salmon farms" (Friends of Clayoquot Sound, 20th December): http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/717441/8f4c07fa18/281632219/69923beea6/

 

"Scientists, lawyers spar with Canadian government: Cohen Commission hearings wrap up with unresolved scientific questions" (Intrafish, 20th December): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1263666.ece

 

"Battle to Put Genetically Engineered Fish on Dinner Tables: Environmental groups concerned over dangers "frankenfish" may pose" (The Epoch Times, 20th December): http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-states/battle-to-put-genetically-engineered-fish-on-dinner-tables-161957.html

"Exposed: Genetically-modified salmon found to be contaminated with infectious salmon anemia" (Natural News, 19th December): http://www.naturalnews.com/034451_GM_salmon_anemia_infections.html

 

"The shores of malfeasance" (The Courier-Islander, 16th December): http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/opinion/story.html?id=8e0b8b0a-f3c1-4dc3-8597-a12d609af7e4

 

 

Listen online to CBC's Curt Petrovich on the ISA cover-up - audio online now! http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=2178690939

 

 

Read the leaked a transcript of Day 1 and other exhibits including ISA in Creative Salmon and AquaBounty farmed salmon - online via 'Fishyleaks'

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia" and "What's Cohen On?"

 

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 21, 2011, 02:56:28 PM
It's worthwhile listening to this tape: particularly from approximately the 7.5 minute point.

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=2178690939

The fish samples that Dr Kibenge tested and found ISAV in were then confiscated by CFIA and retested. DFO and CFIA along with the government spokesmen came out and said that they found no signs of ISAV in the samples. When the CFIA scientists were questioned about the tests, they stated that they couldn't find ISAV because the samples had deteriorated to the point they were unusable. Meaning that no valid tests were actually done to be able to confirm or dispute Dr Kibenge's tests!

That's a whole different story than "There was no ISAV found!"  Then CFIA and DFO went on a campaign to search Dr Kibenge's labs to try and find something in his lab that they could point to and tell the world that his testing capability was inferior. This is the same Dr that was capable enough to discover the ISAV in the Chilean fish farms.

What a web of lies! Bottom line is, ISAV exists in BC.

 

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 21, 2011, 05:00:59 PM
Af, are you interested in the fish or just the politics of this media induced FU?  :D :D :D
Personally I think the Communication people from DFO and the PMO have failed the people who really care, like us posters, about what's happening.  The fact that DFO Science branch people were told not to comment on this stuff is just wrong as so much of this crap could have been avoided.
Yeah, this virus has been here a long time, that's always been suspected but because, and this is the important part, it has not been linked to any documented mortalities to wild salmon or farmed Atlantic salmon, it was off the radar. There was no need to test for it.  Many others virus's common to the Pacific area like IHN or IPN could have a much larger impact on wild and hatchery produced salmon but, if nothing more comes from this Cohen thing we know one recommendation surely must be more funding to study these disease issues.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 21, 2011, 05:19:10 PM
Af, are you interested in the fish or just the politics of this media induced FU?  :D :D :D
Personally I think the Communication people from DFO and the PMO have failed the people who really care, like us posters, about what's happening.  The fact that DFO Science branch people were told not to comment on this stuff is just wrong as so much of this crap could have been avoided.
Yeah, this virus has been here a long time, that's always been suspected but because, and this is the important part, it has not been linked to any documented mortalities to wild salmon or farmed Atlantic salmon, it was off the radar. There was no need to test for it.  Many others virus's common to the Pacific area like IHN or IPN could have a much larger impact on wild and hatchery produced salmon but, if nothing more comes from this Cohen thing we know one recommendation surely must be more funding to study these disease issues.
"The fact that DFO Science branch people were told not to comment on this stuff is just wrong as so much of this crap could have been avoided."

This I would say hits the nail on the head as DFO and the government tried to cover this up as they knew there was and is a problem with this ISAv. :( :'(
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 21, 2011, 06:12:40 PM
Sorry Chris, what's the problem ??? Other than politicians doing a poor job I'm still waiting to what salmon mortalities are attributed to this.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 21, 2011, 06:39:49 PM
Sorry Chris, what's the problem ??? Other than politicians doing a poor job I'm still waiting to what salmon mortalities are attributed to this.

See that's the problem Dave........   You want to see a whole lot of dead fish before you are willing admit there is a problem. It will be too late when you have a lot of dead fish!

What I don't think you understand is the longer this issue is undefined, the more the activists will bring this issue to the public, which will hurt the salmon farmer's sales. Morton has figured this out and I doubt she will be backing off any time soon. The politicians have made the issue worse by lying to us and attempting a cover-up. They have lost the public's trust!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 21, 2011, 07:12:00 PM
Please find enclosed a press update including:

 

"Commerce vs Wild Salmon" (Alexandra Morton, 20th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/12/the-re-opening-of-the-cohen-inquiry-on-isa-virus-provided-an-opportunity-to-see-past-the-pr-machine-that-protects-salmon-farm.html

 

"Getting facts straight on fish farming risk in B.C" (Alberni Valley Times, 20th December): http://www2.canada.com/albernivalleytimes/story.html?id=28fac580-b41f-4f17-86f1-b7aea8608fae

 

"Fish protest pays visit to MP's office" (Chilliwack Times, 20th December): http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/news/Fish+protest+pays+visit+office/5886042/story.html

 

"Cohen Aquaculture Daily – December 19, 2011" (Watershed Watch, 20th December): http://www.watershed-watch.org/2011/12/cohen-aquaculture-daily-december-19-2011/

"Hardest work still to come as Cohen hearings conclude" (The Globe & Mail, 20th December): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/hardest-work-still-to-come-as-cohen-hearings-conclude/article2277224/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2277224

 

"Salmon disease is caused by many factors: Nofima" (FIS, 20th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=20&id=48613&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=

 

"U.S. smoked fish crackdown hits hard: Recalls skyrocket as FDA increases investigations into smoked salmon companies" (Intrafish, 20th December): http://www.intrafish.com/global/news/article1263281.ece

 

"‘High levels’ of Listeria trigger UK salmon recall" (Food Production Daily, 19th December): http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Quality-Safety/High-levels-of-Listeria-trigger-UK-salmon-recall

 

"Damien Gillis on the salmon inquiry" (CBC Early Edition, 19th December): http://www.cbc.ca/earlyedition/past-episodes/2011/12/19/lillooet-flood-beauty-nights-salmon-inquiry-missing-womens-inquiry-political-panel-kim-jong-il-go-pu/

 

"Critics say email shows salmon inspectors' bias" (Surrey North Delta Leader, 19th December): http://www.surreyleader.com/news/135887038.html

 

"SALMONGATE: ‘Joe’ at the Canadian Food Inspection Agency says: “It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour… and we will win the war, also.”" (The Salmon Guy, 19th December): http://www.salmonguy.org/?p=4717

 

"Responsible approach to GM fish is to assume escape: Committee hearing" (Food Navigator, 19th December): http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Regulation/Responsible-approach-to-GM-fish-is-to-assume-escape-Committee-hearing

 

"Speed up the process is salmon farmers' Christmas wish" (Campbell River Mirror, 19th December): http://www.bclocalnews.com/business/135884028.html

 

"BC Salmon Farmers mark one-year anniversary of Pacific Aquaculture Regulations" (BC Salmon Farmers Association, 19th December): http://salmonfarmers.org/bc-salmon-farmers-mark-one-year-anniversary-pacific-aquaculture-regulations

 

"It’s a small science world" (Salmon Farm Science, 19th December): http://salmonfarmscience.com/2011/12/19/its-a-small-science-world/

 

"High-speed evolution: Study shows salmon can change their genes in a single generation" (The Daily Mail, 19th December): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2076275/High-speed-evolution-Study-shows-salmon-change-genes-single-generation.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

"Aquaculture could help feed rising world demand for protein: Fish farming needs fewer resources than raising livestock and can be more environmentally sound than open-water fishing" (Christian Science Monitor, 19th December): http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Making-a-difference/Change-Agent/2011/1219/Aquaculture-could-help-feed-rising-world-demand-for-protein

 

"Salmon Wars: Cohen & Attack of the PR Flacks" (Pacific Free Press, 18th December): http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1-/10469-salmon-wars-cohen-a-attack-of-the-pr-flacks.html

 

"Fish Flu Found in Clayoquot Salmon: ISA Virus Creative Salmon Farms" (Friends of Clayoquot Sound, 16th December): www.focs.ca

 

"Begich Chairs Hearing on Genetically Engineered Salmon" (Alaska Public, 16th December): http://www.alaskapublic.org/2011/12/16/begich-chairs-hearing-on-genetically-engineered-salmon/

 

"Australia grows as roe supplier in Chile" (Fish Farming Xpert, 16th December): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93412

 

"An academic pissing match" (Salmon Farm Science, 16th December): http://salmonfarmscience.com/2011/12/16/an-academic-pissing-match/

 

"If they’re not detecting ISA, what are they detecting?" (Salmon Farm Science, 9th December): http://salmonfarmscience.com/2011/12/09/if-theyre-not-detecting-isa-what-are-they-detecting/

 

 

Includes from today's Chilliwack Times:

 

"A spokesperson for Mainstream Canada, the second largest producer of farmed salmon in B.C., said there is no proof ISA is in B.C. and even those scientists debating the presence of the virus agree it's not killing the fish.  "This could be some totally different virus, which has been in the Pacific Ocean as long as the salmon have been here," communications officer Grant Warkentin told the Times. "There's no hard evidence to suggest there really is a virus, and certainly not to conclude that it must be coming from salmon farms and killing wild salmon."

 

And from a letter in today's Alberni Valley Times from Richard Robinson:

 

"How embarrassing for James Costello, sustainability officer, Mainstream Canada Tofino, to have two blatant piece of lies and propaganda published at the exact same time as the Cohen Commission contradicts his ludicrous claims by finding a concerted effort of the Harper government, the DFO and salmon farm industry lobbyists to hide the fact that the imported ISA virus is in fact widespread on the B.C. coast.  The laughter and ridicule he would be faced with if he continues with this current career choice I would guess would be forevermore unbearable....Good luck, Mr. Costello. I hear Afghanistan and Iraq are both looking for new Ministers of Information, perhaps you could send them your resumé. You seem quite qualified."

 

From the Surrey North Delta Leader reporting on the Cohen Commission:

 

"Joseph Beres wrote to CFIA colleagues Nov. 9 to praise their "very successful performance" in briefing the media on their findings refuting the independent tests.  "It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour," Beres said in the email. "One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war also."  Dr. Kim Klotins, the acting national manager of disease control contingency planning at the CFIA, said staff can get "a little bit exuberant" in internal emails.  "I really can't speak to what he was thinking," she said under cross-examination."

 

And from Alexandra Morton in her blog today:

 

"We heard again and again that trade partners with the Norwegian salmon farming companies in BC were notified and kept informed about the ISA virus tests, but there was NEVER any mention of informing First Nations and other Canadians. Salmon farmers were in attendance at meetings on this virus, but not First Nations, commercial fishing organizations, NGOs or anyone else!"

 

 

Read the leaked a transcript of Day 1 and other exhibits including ISA in Creative Salmon and AquaBounty farmed salmon - online via 'Fishyleaks'

 

More details via "Chronology of a Cover-Up in Canada: ISA in British Columbia" and "What's Cohen On?"

 

For background on the global spread of ISA read "ISA: Diary of Disease Disaster" and "Fish Farmageddon: The Infectious Salmon Aquacalypse" – online via:  http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/fish-farmageddon-infectious-salmon-aquacalypse

 

 

Best fishes,

 

Don
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 22, 2011, 02:31:34 PM
A good article written in plain English: http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1222-kristi-miller-cohen-commission-salmon-virus

Keep in mind that ISA appears to only affect Atlantic salmon and ISAv does not appear to be harmful to native Pacific salmon or humans.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 24, 2011, 10:09:08 AM
http://aptn.ca/pages/news/2011/12/23/cohen-inquiry-wraps-up-amid-virus-controversy/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 26, 2011, 08:59:46 PM
Farmed Salmon Decimating Wild Salmon Worldwide

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080212-salmon-lice.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 27, 2011, 08:17:25 AM
Some interesting comments from Damien Gillis from the Common Sense Canadian.

http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 27, 2011, 11:04:22 AM
Farmed Salmon Decimating Wild Salmon Worldwide

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080212-salmon-lice.html

It kind of detracts from the shock value of that headline when i) you see the paper and the article was published in 2008, ii) you realize that it is based on a statistical evaluation of gross trends and doesn't take into account trends that existed prior to salmon farming or any other factors that would affect wild survival, iii) the study indicates specifically that "In British Columbia (Pacific Canada), only pink salmon showed significant declines correlated with salmon aquaculture." and those results for Pink Salmon are largely based on Kroksek's work.

Of course, to discover those rather relevant details, one must take the trouble to get beyond the perspective of the article's author, track down the paper and read it. It's a whole lot easier not to bother and instead, develop a good case of twisted panty syndrome.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 27, 2011, 01:28:46 PM
Farmed Salmon Decimating Wild Salmon Worldwide

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080212-salmon-lice.html
Chris, would you care to tell us who sent you that?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 27, 2011, 04:01:04 PM
Chris, would you care to tell us who sent you that?
Santa? ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 27, 2011, 06:36:54 PM
Santa? ;D ;D ;D
Chris, it speaks volumes when you or the activists you support won't identify the sender of this shown to be irrelevant 3 year old article you decided to post.
I have asked you before to defend some of your statements but you have refused. What are we readers of a post to which you have added many pages, all 7334 of us at last count, to gather from that? ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 27, 2011, 07:52:38 PM
Chris, it speaks volumes when you or the activists you support won't identify the sender of this shown to be irrelevant 3 year old article you decided to post.
I have asked you before to defend some of your statements but you have refused. What are we readers of a post to which you have added many pages, all 7334 of us at last count, to gather from that? ???


Relax a little Dave....  There are moderators whose responsibility it is to ensure that forum rules are followed. It appears that there are no limits as to how old an article has to be before it is posted.

I see the article being totally relevant to the discussion. The only media I have see suggesting that there are no problems is the PR machines at DFO, CFIA and the fish farms. We have all learned how non-trustworthy those sources are! I thought the article was fair in that it presented the fish farm stance on the issue.

As a reader you need to decide who you are going to believe.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the other article that was posted; http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563  (http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563)
"It is now clear from the Cohen Commission that we have more viruses affecting our wild fish than we'd even imagined. It is obvious that the DFO and CFIA see themselves far more as protectors and promoters of the salmon farming industry than as guardians of our wild fish and the public interest. It is also obvious that neither department, nor the salmon farming industry, views First Nations with anything less than complete and utter disrespect. And it is plain to see that our wild fish are dying more of greed and politics than they are of any natural cause."

I thought it summed it up rather succinctly!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 27, 2011, 08:09:46 PM
Maybe the fish farms could use this technology.....  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCz1KNBI60I&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCz1KNBI60I&feature=player_embedded)





Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 27, 2011, 09:40:57 PM
Ah, the reinforcement has arrived :D and yes, I have most certainly decided who to believe.
DFO has always treated FN poorly - nothing new there.
 
Seriously; do you want to bring potential pipelines, treaties, buyouts and the limited FN capacity, at least at the band member level, to understand it all, into this discussion??
If so, I'm out.
Last I read this post was about a virus found in Pacific salmon that seems to have been here a long time, is harmless and though lethal to Salmo species, again is not causing mortalities in farmed fish.


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 27, 2011, 10:39:19 PM

Last I read this post was about a virus found in Pacific salmon that seems to have been here a long time, is harmless and though lethal to Salmo species, again is not causing mortalities in farmed fish.


Notice how you always revert back to that argument?  ISAV doesn't exist because DFO and CFIA have decided it doesn't exist. If it existed it would harm the salmon farms reputations and likely result in the product being banned from being exported from Canada. They refuse to accept test results from anyone but their own labs. They also want to prevent anyone from running any future tests. Pretty controlled environment.......   Makes it easier to control the media reports.  ::)

Salmon pen farms are dangerous and need to be at least removed from the migratory wild salmon paths. At the very best they need to be put on dry land.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 27, 2011, 11:57:04 PM
Relax a little Dave....  There are moderators whose responsibility it is to ensure that forum rules are followed. It appears that there are no limits as to how old an article has to be before it is posted.

I see the article being totally relevant to the discussion. The only media I have see suggesting that there are no problems is the PR machines at DFO, CFIA and the fish farms. We have all learned how non-trustworthy those sources are! I thought the article was fair in that it presented the fish farm stance on the issue.

As a reader you need to decide who you are going to believe.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the other article that was posted; http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563  (http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563)
"It is now clear from the Cohen Commission that we have more viruses affecting our wild fish than we'd even imagined. It is obvious that the DFO and CFIA see themselves far more as protectors and promoters of the salmon farming industry than as guardians of our wild fish and the public interest. It is also obvious that neither department, nor the salmon farming industry, views First Nations with anything less than complete and utter disrespect. And it is plain to see that our wild fish are dying more of greed and politics than they are of any natural cause."

I thought it summed it up rather succinctly!
We have more viruses affecting our wild fish?  Apparently, neither you nor Damien cared to read the testimony from December 15th.  Even Miller admitted that we do not even know that this ISAV is causing disease.

"I wouldn't disagree with that. I mean, I think that I clearly believe that there is a virus here that is very similar to ISA virus in Europe, but we really do need to get a fuller sequence to get more information about how similar it is, given the level of discrepancy between the various different primers that we're using.  So yes, I do think that there is sequence validation that there is an ISA-like virus here.  How it gets classified I think will be determined both based on a fuller sequence and also obviously we have not established that it causes disease.” – Dr. Kristi Miller (Cohen Commission Public Hearings, December 15, 2011).

Even Dr. Nylund, a leading expert in ISA, is not firmly convinced of an ISA virus in Pacific Salmon (Cohen Commission Public Hearings, December 15, 2011, page 57).  It does not necessarily mean that his opinion is the only one that should be trusted, but it speaks to the fact that there is much more work to do.

We do not know anything about the pathology of these discoveries or the structure of this virus.  It has not even been isolated and cultured (and even that may be a challenge).  During the Cohen Inquiry there was this document produced:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project1-Report.pdf#zoom=100

As the report explains, our knowledge of impacts of pathogens on Pacific Salmon, especially Sockeye is very limited.  Even the people providing testimony during the ISA hearings eluded to that – again.  Most of our knowledge of the pathology of these pathogens comes from work with hatchery and farm fish.  However, according to the Insane Canadian, we know the extent and the impact that this “virus” is haviing on wild fish and this article summed it up succinctly?  Do you really believe that nonsense?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 28, 2011, 08:11:50 AM
Chris, it speaks volumes when you or the activists you support won't identify the sender of this shown to be irrelevant 3 year old article you decided to post.
I have asked you before to defend some of your statements but you have refused. What are we readers of a post to which you have added many pages, all 7334 of us at last count, to gather from that? ???


I wouldn't characterize this paper as entirely irrelevant. While attempting to find gross correlations is hardly "science" since a positive correlation doesn't establish causation, finding a lack of correlation is a more significant and meaningful result. The authors of the paper indicate that they were unable to find any correlation between the presence of salmon farms and numbers of wild chinook, coho, chum and most significantly, sockeye salmon. That certainly flies in the face of the current arguments presented by the reactionaries.

It is rather humorous and certainly indicative of the depth of their research and understanding of the subject that Chris presents it as further damning evidence against farms and that the sidekick argues in support of the relevance of the results. Neither bothered to go to the source document to confirm the interpretation in the article; both instead react to a salacious headline as if that were enough evidence in itself. I'd consider this a graphic representation of the integrity of the arguments presented by the reactionaries.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 09:14:23 AM

Fraser sockeye being hung out to dry by politicians
  By CRAIG ORR AND STAN PROBOSZCZ, Vancouver Sun December 27, 2011  Comment 0 •Story•Photos ( 1 )
  Salmon must swim a gauntlet of indifference and lax protection measures.With all respect to a certain cinematic frog, it’s tough being a Fraser River sockeye, judging by masses of evidence and testimony tendered over the past two years at the Cohen Commission Inquiry into the Decline of Fraser River Sockeye. There’s little doubt: Sockeye face a tough existence, and unless things change, their future — and ours — will be far less rich. Sockeye are plagued by a lack of food, lax pollution standards, ineffective habitat protection efforts, archaic water laws, harmful hydro impacts, unjustified riverbed mining, a “modernized” Fisheries Act, illegal fishing, subpar catch monitoring, and debilitating climate change. Unlucky Oncorhynchus nerka must also swim a gauntlet of non-selective nets, predators, toxic algae blooms, and pathogen-bearing fish farms — all for an increasingly slim chance to spawn and die.

If these stresses weren’t troubling enough, the federal review of Fraser sockeye woes recently reopened to testimony about positive tests for the infectious salmon anemia virus (ISAv) in wild and farmed salmon. Indeed, despite vigorous government assurances to the contrary, compelling evidence suggests this virus has been here for some time. Governments’ reaction to the news — and to leaks that they had known of a possible virus for nearly a decade — prompts one to fear that wild salmon ranked disturbingly low on their list of priorities.

Reaction to reports of a virus associated with salmon farms predictably meant strident denial among Canada’s regulators, followed by something more insidious. Governments seemed less inclined to act on disease and public concerns, and more intent on firing back at the scientists who reported ISAv positives. Judge Bruce Cohen was told scientists felt “intimidated,” “attacked,” and “alienated.” Samples were seized, methods publicly questioned, labs audited. Fisheries ministers unleashed media releases chastising highly accredited academics for “reckless behaviour” and “unsound science.” Directives streamed forth from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency considering banning labs from further testing of samples collected by mere private citizens. That’s government’s job, claimed CFIA, though no government testing will happen until a disease surveillance plan is initiated, hopefully sometime in 2012. And heaven (and government) forbid anyone reporting “presumptive positives;” we must consider the international trade implications — and less so the risk to salmon.

At the core of the Cohen inquiry is the integrity of government in protecting both wild salmon and the public interest. Enough evidence was tabled to portray a Department of Fisheries and Oceans caught unfairly between conflicting mandates of simultaneously promoting industrial interests, and protecting wild salmon. Indeed, sockeye-coloured flags were raised when Cohen learned government offers up big bucks to aquaculture advocacy groups, while simultaneously Scrooging fisheries management, enforcement, and good science (like the DFO’s own fisheries scientist Kristi Miller’s). And epitaphs seem more appropriate for Canada’s progressive Wild Salmon Policy, left to fend for itself with political indifference and a lump of coal.

For keen observers of DFO and government in general, none of this surprises. The myriad details revealed in the inquiry are new though, and they paint what may be the master rendering of the current dysfunctional landscape. Like elsewhere, our governments are seemingly “captured” by industrial interests. According to British Columbia’s own Buzz Holling, the guru of adaptive management, both sockeye and those responsible for sockeye have consequently lost resilience and become “accidents waiting to happen.” In human systems, the debilitating situation is manifested by narrow interests, attempts to tightly control messaging and messengers, and a near singular drive for cost and organizational efficiency. Though the actors may change, Holling’s work suggests sockeye fit a remarkably robust pattern that he ominously calls “resource management pathology.”

Fraser River sockeye are, simply put, our own home-brewed case of resource management pathology. For those who value wild salmon and the democratic process, the current regime is in need of a major overhaul. The crisis with sockeye, and in public confidence in government, has opened up a rare opportunity for reform. The inquiry itself, especially the report due in June, can help lay a much-needed blueprint for positive change.

But it will mean government embracing, not ignoring, the outcome. More transparency. Resolving conflicting mandates. Depoliticizing science. Less kowtowing to industrial interests. More fisheries management and independent science capacity. Favouring long-term planning over narrow short-term interests. Promoting land-based farming. Less robbing of the future. Honouring the wild salmon policy.

Such a reform would stand apart as a lasting legacy, and serve as a welcome relief for Canadians forced for too long to bear witness to the constant fumbling of the political football that sockeye have come to represent.

Craig Orr is executive director and Stan Proboszcz fisheries biologist with the Watershed Watch Salmon Society, one of the member groups of the Conservation Coalition represented at the Cohn inquiry by Ecojustice.


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Fraser+sockeye+being+hung+politicians/5916281/story.html#ixzz1hqmx30vs
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 28, 2011, 09:50:21 AM

It is rather humorous and certainly indicative of the depth of their research and understanding of the subject that Chris presents it as further damning evidence against farms and that the sidekick argues in support of the relevance of the results.

Speaking of humor.....  I find it humorous that you and your "sidekicks" (shuswap, dave and stillaqua) all use "scientific" evidence to support your position. Your evidence has been provided to you by sources that have zero credibility, as proven through the questioning at the Cohen commission. They have held back information, misrepresented information, discredited world renown scientists, failed to do testing of their own, all to protect the salmon farming industry. At least the sources I use have no monetary incentive that taints their presentation of the facts.

Your evidence sources reek of self interest and political meddling.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 28, 2011, 10:02:03 AM
Quote
Relax a little Dave....  There are moderators whose responsibility it is to ensure that forum rules are followed. It appears that there are no limits as to how old an article has to be before it is posted.

There seems to be very few rules. 

I would think that the moderator might take issue with chris and his media posts which regardless of content,  for or against, seem to plague each individual fish farm discussion.  But hey it is the "discussion and news thread" so thats that I guess.  Just chris doing what chris does.  Would be nice to hear his opinion or his own thoughts more often.

I think we should use the correct term for the "ISAv".  Just sure everyone is clear what we are talking about it.  Lets call it the ISALv (infectious salmon anemia LIKE virus) and of course stop labeling it Leathal, and deadly like the anti's like to becouse we all know now that it isn't.

Why is it that there is far more reports and articles bashing fish farms on the isa front only on the three days that the commission re-opened but especially on the first day? then once the thing is over you hardly hear a peep from them?  weird.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 28, 2011, 01:05:54 PM

I think we should use the correct term for the "ISAv".  Just sure everyone is clear what we are talking about it.  Lets call it the ISALv (infectious salmon anemia LIKE virus) and of course stop labeling it Leathal, and deadly like the anti's like to becouse we all know now that it isn't.



Why don't we call it ISAtDwutbiH   (ISA that DFO wants us to believe is harmless)?  ::)  ::)

P.S. I just realized that Absolon has another "sidekick".  ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on December 28, 2011, 03:31:49 PM
Why don't we call it ISAtDwutbiH  (ISA that DFO wants us to believe is harmless)?  ::)  ::)

P.S. I just realized that Absolon has another "sidekick".  ;D

I too am waiting to hear a response from Chris, lets see now we have over 30 pages to this thread and no real response from Mr Cut and Paste, well cept for his cronies doing it for him, but that doesnt count. ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 03:41:59 PM
I too am waiting to hear a response from Chris, lets see now we have over 30 pages to this thread and no real response from Mr Cut and Paste, well cept for his cronies doing it for him, but that doesnt count. ;)
More cut and paste. ;D ;D ;D
http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 28, 2011, 03:48:04 PM
I see that Chris has fixed up the link already...
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 28, 2011, 04:41:10 PM
I too am waiting to hear a response from Chris, lets see now we have over 30 pages to this thread and no real response from Mr Cut and Paste, well cept for his cronies doing it for him, but that doesnt count. ;)

I see that another absolon "sidekick" is singing the fish farm supporter, theme song........  catchy little tune.  :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 05:12:33 PM
http://www.thegreeninterview.com/Alexandra-Morton-interview
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 05:22:43 PM
http://blog.enn.com/?p=1705
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 28, 2011, 05:52:08 PM
I see that another absolon "sidekick" is singing the fish farm supporter, theme song........  catchy little tune.  :D

This group seems to be expanding while yours, not so much (or are they sitting in the wings?)  C'mon all you anti salmon farmers - speak up if you have something to add to this discussion as it's becoming increasingly boring debating this with alwaysfishn and I've given up on a personal opinion from my buddy Chris ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 05:59:47 PM
This group seems to be expanding while yours, not so much (or are they sitting in the wings?)  C'mon all you anti salmon farmers - speak up if you have something to add to this discussion as it's becoming increasingly boring debating this with alwaysfishn and I've given up on a personal opinion from my buddy Chris ???
;D ;D ;D
Once again just keep those interested updated on what is being put out there. The choice is up to each individual to read or not, very simple. ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 28, 2011, 06:44:29 PM
Quote
Once again just keep those interested updated on what is being put out there. The choice is up to each individual to read or not, very simple.

But chris,   do you not have any desire to discover the truth and to be a part of truth because IMO much of the info you post is from agenda driven sources that are more than willing to mislead the public by posting inaccurate information via the media.   Your ok with being a part of that?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 28, 2011, 08:10:02 PM
But chris,   do you not have any desire to discover the truth and to be a part of truth because IMO much of the info you post is from agenda driven sources that are more than willing to mislead the public by posting inaccurate information via the media.   Your ok with being a part of that?

Aquapaloosa; you are like the Jimmy Jones of the fish farm society.

Problem is your sources have proven that they lie, deceive, withhold information and have not done the proper research to determine the harm these viruses can cause. You use those sources to try and convince us that we should be drinking your poison.   ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 08:58:35 PM
But chris,   do you not have any desire to discover the truth and to be a part of truth because IMO much of the info you post is from agenda driven sources that are more than willing to mislead the public by posting inaccurate information via the media.   Your ok with being a part of that?
You bet as I see a lack of transparency from the other side of the issue, you OK with being part of that?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 09:15:35 PM
Salmon farmers confident of their product
Share this story
 

By Brian Kieran - Campbell River Mirror
Published: December 27, 2011 2:00 PM
Updated: December 27, 2011 2:34 PM

Consumers of farmed salmon can dine with “confidence” despite headline-grabbing deadly ocean virus testimony given at the Cohen Commission examining the decline of Fraser River sockeye.



Testimony, which wrapped up last week, has raised fresh questions about the potential threat of the Infectious Salmon Anaemia (ISA) virus that has ravaged farmed salmon elsewhere in the world.



In the wake of this testimony Campbell River-based BC Salmon Farmers Association Executive Director Mary Ellen Walling said simply: “We have a record of confidence.”



Walling, who attended the commission hearings, said: “The gap in the testimony we have heard is around the lack of knowledge we have on viruses in the Pacific Ocean that may affect wild salmon.



“There are millions and millions of viruses in the sea. They are the most prevalent life forms in the ocean. But, virus does not always equal disease.



“Because we’ve done so much work on farmed fish monitoring we have a record of confidence in the results that we have had over the past decade and we don’t see large numbers of an explained mortalities in our fish.



“If our fish were carrying this ISA virus they would die because this is a virus that has been proven to have a terrible affect on farmed Atlantic salmon ... we’ve seen that in other jurisdictions,” Walling added.



The commission heard new evidence that critics say suggests federal agencies were willing to suppress the truth about risks to salmon to protect industry and trade. One email entered in evidence came from a BC manager of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) which investigated alleged findings of ISA and then refuted those reports. The CFIA manager emailed colleagues in November to praise their “very successful performance” briefing the media. “It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour,” he bragged.



Stephen Stephen, the director of DFO’s Biotechnology and Aquatic Animal Health Sciences Branch, rejected suggestions federal employees pre-judged the ISA investigation.



He defended CFIA’s recent determination that re-testing failed to confirm any presence of ISA in several wild salmon collected separately by a SFU professor and independent biologist Alexandra Morton​. However, DFO researcher Kristi Miller told the inquiry that the ISA virus, or something very similar, may have been present in wild BC salmon for 25 years. The CFIA has promised systematic salmon sampling to test for ISA in BC waters starting next year. Craig Orr, executive director of the Watershed Watch Salmon Society, said he believes ISA is present in BC on the basis of the initial tests, although he said it’s unclear what threat, if any, this poses to wild salmon.



“The bigger question is what government is doing to protect our interests as opposed to protecting very narrow interests like salmon farming,” Orr said.



Asked if the hearing testimony represents a public relations setback for salmon farmers Walling said: “It’s always challenging communicating complex scientific questions.



“People want to have confidence in the food that they are eating. They want to have delicious meal. They want to eat something that is healthy. They want to know we are protecting wild salmon in the environment where we are farming.



“We try to be open and accessible in terms of the information we are providing the public,” the association executive director said.


Comments

Ivan Doumenc · Vancouver, British Columbia
The name of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency official who bragged about turning the PR tide is Joseph Beres, Inspection Manager at CFIA.

And here is the email that Beres wrote on November 9 to his colleagues, including Con Kiley, director of the national aquatic animal health program at CFIA:

"Con,

It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour, – and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokes[people] at the Tech Briefing yesterday, – you, Stephen, Peter and Paul were a terrific team, indeed. Congratulations!

One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war also.

Cheers,
Joe."

Beres was responding to an email thread in which Con Kiley had previously written:

... "Concentrate on the headlines, that's often all that people read or remember. Both the "Top Stories" and the "Related Pieces"."

This shows the contempt that those public officials have for the public's right to know the truth. More
Reply · 3 · Like

· Follow Post · Yesterday at 6:41pm
Claudette Bethune · Carlsbad, California
If people want to eat a healthy meal and protect the environment, the last thing they would consider eating would be farmed salmon. The considerable lack of open and accessible monitoring information for BC salmon farms is staggering, and the white wash insulting.
Reply · 2 · Like

· Follow Post · Yesterday at 7:53pm

Dennis Reid · 59 years old
1. The entire 'confidence' of Mary Ellen Willing is based on the provincial system. Kristi Miller showed that Gary Marty said the system was using one ISA PCR test, but was not using it. That renders the system useless for ISA. Miller found ISA in chinook pens at 25% of the fish, or in the range of 125,000 sick chinook in Clayoquot.

2. No the main point was that the BC, DFO and CFIA were acting in concert to change the results into negatives and that the Moncton lab was shown not to be able to reach ISA positive results.

3. There are several dozen salmon diseases in the ocean. The killing of wild fish can be stopped by putting farmed salmon on land.

4. It also came out that with scheduled testing days there were few to none dead salmon left in the cages. And the provincial system still showed 29 million dead farmed salmon si...nce 2002. That is twice the level that ISA percolates along and then breaks out, like in Clayoquot Sound.

5. The CFIA testing was done at the Moncton lab that Kibenge, Nylund and Miller all said was not up to international standards. Using the Moncton procedures, Miller found only negatives for ISA in fish she had tested as positive.

6. And by the way, the industry's own figures show only 820 employees so the industry is to small to compare with the environmental degradation they cause. Then need to be on land.

7. The testimony was a hard blow to the the credibility of fish farm claims and those of DFO, CFIA, the BC testing system and the Moncton lab.

8. The industry is never open and transparent. Circa 1995 they argued that the prvincial government could not release the disease data within the government. Then they argued to keep the provincial tables from the Cohen Commission and just the other week, they argued that the Cohen Commission could not release the actual data tables on ISA. Fish farms are not transparent and they use this same tactic around the globe where they set up shop.re
..  
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 28, 2011, 09:33:40 PM


Quote
You bet as I see a lack of transparency from the other side of the issue, you OK with being part of that?

I would say that the dfo has handled this poorly but given that it is not the ISAv as known to Europe and Chile I can understand why they would take the time and look into it further since they know it is not killing wild fish and has been around for a long time.  Hey, if your looking for a reason to hate government then by all means fill your boots, but given the fact that harm has not been done to wild fish by that action I am ok with it.  I understand that things like this take time to better understand before having a major over reaction which is the best the anti's could ask for.  I guess that is a major advantage for the anti's to get the fear out early is so that they can claim how much everyone else sucks so much as professional officials, biologist, and scientists.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 28, 2011, 09:38:40 PM
Quote
Problem is your sources have proven that they lie, deceive, withhold information and have not done the proper research to determine the harm these viruses can cause. You use those sources to try and convince us that we should be drinking your poison.

I think you  may have mistaken me for some other poster.  I general post on my own personal experience.  For ten years now the anti salmon farming movement has been on my radar.  Primarily for the massive input of shot gun misinformation it bombards the public with.   I like to have some job security you know so I follow this closely and have learned the process even though I am pretty sure i will remain employed.  I see the pattern and while it slowly evolves there is a pattern that repeats itself over and over and over again.  It goes like this for example:

1.  Some one finds few yellow fish dead in a river ???  Oh no what should we do >:(
2.  Morton gets a hold of it and first things first...call the press :o  And the press is fed a story :'( and gobbles it up.  And there off.  The presses rumble and the phones ring off the hook, what a story!  While the press machine churns out the stories and the phones ring(chris is cutin and pasting up a storm) the biologist that deal with this stuff have to take a look at what it really is or could be.  That takes time, more than enough time for the anti's to completely monopolize the media with there dire predictions and estimations and whatever else they are guessing at or making assumptions.  When the professionals and specialist  finally respond it is to late for them and the aquaculture industry.  The damage is done to both.
3.  When  an explanation arrives it gets whipped up into a conspiracy theory or the next dire crisis is revealed or it just isn't realy a big deal so there is no story.

I see this OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

but i know, you can't see it that way.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on December 28, 2011, 09:51:09 PM
Speaking of humor.....  I find it humorous that you and your "sidekicks" (shuswap, dave and stillaqua) all use "scientific" evidence to support your position. Your evidence has been provided to you by sources that have zero credibility, as proven through the questioning at the Cohen commission. 

You're always good for some hilarious extreme hyperbole AF  ;D. But if I'm a sidekick, I get to be Kato guys.. 8)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 28, 2011, 10:14:59 PM

From Environmental News
FrankenSalmon. Coming Soon To A Table Near You.
In September of 2010 the FDA approved the first genetically animal safe for eating. The “product” is a genetically modified Atlantic salmon developed by AquaBounty Technologies, which they named AquaAdvantage Salmon (AAS). AAS can grow twice as fast as a normal salmon. This super speedy growth rate was gained by making two changes to the salmon’s genome, the addition of a growth hormone gene, and the addition of an antifreeze gene. AquaBounty see their salmon as an environmentally sustainable alternative to the current farmed salmon. AAS are to be raised in land-based facilities, which would reduce the environmental impact on coastal areas, and eliminate the threat of disease transfer from farms to wild fish. Land-based facilities would also allow people to live closer to their food facilities, reducing some of the costs associated with transporting fish. But many people are still worried about the health and environmental risks posed by genetically modified salmon.

The first worry people have about modified genetically modified salmon is “are they safe to eat?”  It’s a known fact that in the United States we’ve been eating genetically modified produce for years.  The main health concern with genetically modified foods is allergens. For AAS, the two proteins being introduced into the salmon’s genetic makeup are from other fish, so there’s not the same kind of worry as adding a protein from a peanut or shrimp.  But there is still the worry that adding proteins will increase the number of fish allergens inside the salmon.

A bigger concern may be environmental impact if the AAS salmon are accidently introduced into the wild.  AAS are designed specially for land based facilities, but precautions have also been taken to reduce their impact if they are accidently introduced into the wild. AAS salmon are all triploid females, which means that they are not only all female, but are sterilized as well.  The problem with triploid induction is that there is a very small percentage of fish where the sterilization doesn’t work. There is a failure of sterilization in .1 to 1% of fish, which is a pretty small number, except fish farms usually contain 500,000 to 1 million fish.  How this could impact wild fish populations is unknown. Personally this reminds me of the Movie/Book “Jurassic Park”.

Even sterilized fish may have a negative impact on wild salmon populations. AAS salmon grow faster and larger then natural salmon. This would make an AAS salmon more attractive for mating then a natural Atlantic salmon, which could negatively impact wild salmon populations.

When AAS hit the market, farming facilities need to be monitored to make sure there is no way for the salmon to accidently escape into the wild. This is especially important in areas where a salmon population is already present.  AAS could be an excellent way to increase the availability of fish without impacting wild salmon populations and the coastal ecosystem but strict monitoring is needed to keep these “mutants” from causing trouble.

For further information on the AAS Salmon Controversy and further concerns check out this story from NPR:

http://www.npr.org/2011/12/09/143453487/debating-genetically-modified-salmon?sc=emaf

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 28, 2011, 11:54:45 PM


 Morton gets a hold of it and first things first...call the press :o  And the press is fed a story :'( and gobbles it up.  And there off.  The presses rumble and the phones ring off the hook, what a story!  While the press machine churns out the stories and the phones ring(chris is cutin and pasting up a storm) the biologist that deal with this stuff have to take a look at what it really is or could be.  That takes time, more than enough time for the anti's to completely monopolize the media with there dire predictions and estimations and whatever else they are guessing at or making assumptions.  When the professionals and specialist  finally respond it is to late for them and the aquaculture industry.  The damage is done to both.
3.  When  an explanation arrives it gets whipped up into a conspiracy theory or the next dire crisis is revealed or it just isn't realy a big deal so there is no story.

I see this OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

It is easy to watch this torrent of verbiage that Chris and his sidekicks Larry and Curly present and feel a little overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it. That indeed is the intent of the campaign and Chris is nothing more than a tool used to convince you that there is a huge groundswell of support. The truth, however, is quite different. I think something that is important to remember is that for all the media campaigns, all the cutting and pasting of poorly reasoned, overblown rhetoric, all the dire predictions and the endless nonsensical bleating of a noisy few, the fact remains that a week later the public's interest will move on to some other topic that will briefly hold their attention until it is superseded by yet another spectacle. This "battle" is entertainment for the observing public, not a holy crusade. In their attempts to regain that lost media attention, the reactionaries will eventually destroy their own credibility as their claims become more and more extreme and less and less credible. That process is well along even as I write this; the disappearance of the multiple posts by true believers of the weekly updates from Morton on fishing forums across the web over the past two years is substantial proof of that. Chris is a relic, among the last of a dying breed.

In the meantime, the farms will continue producing fish by following the practices that they have safely followed since the industry began in the 1980s. They will continue to safeguard their stocks and the rearing environments in which they keep them. As has always been the case, the reactionaries will be unable to supply a single piece of scientific evidence that the farms are doing anything but that though that won't stop the bleating. They will continue to provide direct jobs and substantial benefits to the provincial economy and they will continue to work with the regulators and the scientists to improve husbandry practices and identify and minimize effects from their presence just as they have always done. The markets will continue to want their product; being labeled as ISA infected fish in the New York Times by Morton and that other jackass will have no effect on demand. The decline in demand is a response to the world economic climate, not the reactionaries though I fully expect that they will claim credit at some point.

At the same time, scientists will be looking into this virus that Miller has purportedly discovered as well as looking more closely at her methods. There will be attempts to identify it and identify any consequential effects over the last 25 or more years that Miller claims it has been in our waters. There will be investigations of why it hasn't caused disease outbreaks in the farm stocks and whether it has affected wild stocks. These all will proceed at the pace that good scientific practice dictates and no faster. That isn't a problem in spite of all the noise proclaiming doomsday because there is no impending disaster; a virus that has purportedly co-existed with wild and farmed salmon for decades won't turn rogue overnight and the research needs to be complete and thorough.

And finally, the Cohen Inquiry will produce a report about the declining sockeye that will take into account all of the testimony by all of the experts about all of the factors that could conceivably affect the stocks survival. The sideshow staged by Morton and cohort and the inflammatory comments arising from the blogosphere will have little effect on his deliberations; his mandate is to find and analyze the facts. It is almost an inevitability that one of the main conclusions will be that DFO must be given the resources to do the job they are mandated to do; the problem then will be whether the Harper government has the interest or political will to follow through.

The main thing to take away is that for all the organized, loud and well-funded campaign by the reactionaries to get the public onside, the science does not back them up and the decisions are going to be made based on the science by people who are not susceptible to and are probably getting more than a little annoyed by the incessant bleating. The public, in general and in spite of the noise, realize that they are better trusting in the science than in the claims of a small group with a big bankroll and an agenda.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 29, 2011, 06:37:13 AM
Well I have been called a lot over the years but never a relic, but you could be right this time as at 68 I feel like that some days. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 29, 2011, 06:59:54 AM

At the same time, scientists will be looking into this virus that Miller has purportedly discovered as well as looking more closely at her methods. There will be attempts to identify it and identify any consequential effects over the last 25 or more years that Miller claims it has been in our waters. There will be investigations of why it hasn't caused disease outbreaks in the farm stocks and whether it has affected wild stocks. These all will proceed at the pace that good scientific practice dictates and no faster. That isn't a problem in spite of all the noise proclaiming doomsday because there is no impending disaster; a virus that has purportedly co-existed with wild and farmed salmon for decades won't turn rogue overnight and the research needs to be complete and thorough.



The main thing to take away is that for all the organized, loud and well-funded campaign by the reactionaries to get the public onside, the science does not back them up and the decisions are going to be made based on the science by people who are not susceptible to and are probably getting more than a little annoyed by the incessant bleating. The public, in general and in spite of the noise, realize that they are better trusting in the science than in the claims of a small group with a big bankroll and an agenda.

I find it hard to believe that you would repeat this sort of nonsense. Your statement suggests that Miller has been studying this virus for 25 years and only at the Cohen commission did DFO finally learn of it and now they are suddenly going to put all sorts of effort into studying it along with Millers methods.

The truth is that DFO has been successfully suppressing this information, hoping that they could expand the farming industry before the effects of these disease became too obvious and most of the wild salmon stocks became extinct. They are ignoring any science that doesn't support their "no problem" PR campaign. From an operational point of view there is a significant benefit from having the coast lined with fish farms and no wild salmon than the other way around.

What is changing is the public is becoming aware of the governments efforts to expand fish farming at the expense of the wild salmon and is having none of it! They are doing it on a tiny budget and a lot of heart!

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 29, 2011, 08:02:12 AM
Well I have been called a lot over the years but never a relic, but you could be right this time as at 68 I feel like that some days. ;D ;D ;D

Chris, I have no doubt you are full of life but with respect to fish farms and the organized campaign against them, you are indeed a relic. The thing that is killing the role that people like you fulfill in that campaign is knowledge. More and more people who know about the industry and who recognize the untruths being propagated by the anti-farm reactionaries are stepping forward to question the nonsense and clear the air. The one thing the reactionaries campaign can't overcome is the truth.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on December 29, 2011, 08:19:11 AM
"The one thing the reactionaries campaign can't overcome is the truth."


Tell Chile that. Just a matter of time before that happens here if they keep doing things the way they have been. Of course you could say it never happened in Chile and elsewhere enough times to yourself to belive it.

http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1/4710-after-the-goldrush-chiles-doomed-fish-farms.html


never happened,never happened,never happened,never happened,never happened,never happened,never happened, :)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 29, 2011, 08:28:32 AM
Do you have any understanding of the differences between Chilean fish farming and BC fish farming?


Of course not or you would realize how meaningless your statement is.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 29, 2011, 09:43:03 AM
http://www.oceanwise.ca/seafood/salmon/atlantic-salmon

“Not recommended”
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 29, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
It's not working...............

"Global farmed salmon production is expected to grow 8 to 10 percent next year and up to 12 percent in 2012, said Marine Harvest executives during the company’s annual capital markets day in Stavanger, Norway, on Tuesday.

According to the world’s largest farmed salmon producer, global farmed salmon output totaled 1.32 million metric tons in 2009 and should fall to between 1.22 million and 1.25 million metric tons this year — a drop of 5 to 8 percent.

The Norwegian company also projects global farmed salmon output to reach between 1.31 million and 1.38 million metric tons in 2011 and between 1.41 million and 1.55 million metric tons in 2012, returning the total to pre-2009 levels."

http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=4294998813 (http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=4294998813)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 29, 2011, 10:08:42 AM
From easywater's link:

Quote
Sustainable alternatives:
Wild-caught Pacific Salmon from BC or Alaska would be a sustainable seafood alternative.


 What!!! ??? ??? ???  How so?

Wasn't over harvesting what started all this?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 29, 2011, 10:33:12 AM
Here is where it gets interesting.

The Gordon and Betty Moore foundation in the US, the one that funded the study to develop the campaign against farmed salmon and provides substantial funding to the anti-farm campaign also funded the establishment of the Marine Stewardship Council, the organization that has taken upon itself the job of evaluating and rating the sustainability of world fisheries. This, of course, is a noble and valuable function that will help consumers decide on environmentally sustainable consumption practices and one would think they should be commended. A closer look, however, calls that into question.

Two of the fisheries that have been rated as sustainable might cause a little consternation among those who look a little closer. One is the Alaska ranched salmon program where hatchery reared fish are released to "pasture" on a free range basis. That fishery is considered by many to be upsetting the food web in the North Pacific and cause declines in many stocks among which are the wild salmon stocks. The other declared "sustainable" fishery is the BC sockeye fishery in it's entirety. Never mind that we are in a middle of a judicial inquiry investigating the precipitous decline of the largest of the stocks, the fishery proudly bears the label "sustainable" and can be sold to consumers by organizations like the one posted as an ecologically friendly choice.

The rating of "sustainable" is a marketing ploy designed to lure consumers to selected fisheries and away from the farmed product. It does not represent accurately the facts, just as the other elements in the anti-farm campaign do not represent accurately the facts.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on December 29, 2011, 11:55:23 AM
Do you have any understanding of the differences between Chilean fish farming and BC fish farming?


Of course not or you would realize how meaningless your statement is.


Right back at ya smarty pants.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 29, 2011, 12:24:51 PM
The multistakeholder World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Salmon Aquaculture Dialogue commissioned a report on chemical use in salmon farming. The committee of expert scientists that authored the report explain that:

“…this use of large volumes of antibiotics can only be explained by excessive and prophylactic [preventative] use. Excessive and prophylactic use of antibiotics in animal husbandry is in general the result of shortcomings in rearing methods and hygienic conditions that favor animal stress, and opportunistic infections and their dissemination.”
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 29, 2011, 12:28:57 PM
The multistakeholder World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Salmon Aquaculture Dialogue commissioned a report on chemical use in salmon farming. The committee of expert scientists that authored the report explain that:

“…this use of large volumes of antibiotics can only be explained by excessive and prophylactic [preventative] use. Excessive and prophylactic use of antibiotics in animal husbandry is in general the result of shortcomings in rearing methods and hygienic conditions that favor animal stress, and opportunistic infections and their dissemination.”

Can you supply a link to this report?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 29, 2011, 01:51:12 PM
Can you supply a link to this report?

http://www.worldwildlife.org/what/globalmarkets/aquaculture/WWFBinaryitem8842.pdf

Careful though, the lead scientist is some unreliable guy called Les Burridge.
http://www.mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/e0006652
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 29, 2011, 02:13:30 PM
Thanks for posting the link. I've always found it pays to read the small print too; statements like this are also important:

Use of antibiotics in livestock production represents the major use of antibiotics
worldwide. Municipal wastewater treatment plants are a source of antibiotic residues from human
sources. Quantities of antibiotics used in salmon aquaculture are small compared to other forms
of food production and published data show the use of antibiotics in salmon aquaculture has been
diminishing in some areas.


The available data show the trend in Europe during the past decade has been towards a reduction in the quantity of antibiotics used in salmon aquaculture. The most recent data show a consistent level of antibiotic use in Europe with minor fluctuations presumably as the result of localized disease out breaks. Data from British Columbia (Canada) indicates a reduction in antibiotic use in that province as well.

As for the lead author, the DFO summary page also indicates this about him:

Dr. Burridge is a member of a group of Canadian scientists established by the Aquaculture Association of Canada to discuss/describe the state of knowledge regarding environmental effects of Aquaculture.

It would appear that rather than covering up information, the aquaculture industry is actively looking into potential problems and even though Dr. Burridge works for that dreaded evil agency that is hiding all those nasty facts in order to promote salmon farms, he has agreed to assist both the industry and the WWF in exploring this subject.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 29, 2011, 02:59:14 PM
Data from British Columbia (Canada) indicates a reduction in antibiotic use in that province as well.

Reduction perhaps but still very high - we trail only Chile in our antibiotic use.
Check out the chart on  page 22: http://www.worldwildlife.org/what/globalmarkets/aquaculture/WWFBinaryitem5328.pdf

Careful though, the lead scientist is some unreliable guy called Les Burridge.

I was being facetious - it was a bit of a shot at Dave for questioning the source.
Dave and I have had discussions off-line and while it may be said that DFO's actions could be questionable, we both agree that there are good people that work there.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on December 29, 2011, 03:24:56 PM

I was being facetious - it was a bit of a shot at Dave for questioning the source.
Dave and I have had discussions off-line and while it may be said that DFO's actions could be questionable, we both agree that there are good people that work there.
Sorry Easywater, I wasn't questioning the source but I was a bit brusque in my approach.
X2 about the good people :)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 29, 2011, 03:41:05 PM
Have a look at page 21 immediately preceding the chart and note the caveats, primarily that this is 2003 data normalized to market fish.

If you were to compare that to the more recent data that includes use for 2003 through 2008, you'll note that use has dropped by 80% in that time period. To really give a true picture of industry practice, data from 2009 and 2010 should also be considered. Regardless, it is apparent that a considerable effort has been successfully applied to reduce use.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/Antibiotic_Graphs_1995-2008.pdf (http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/Antibiotic_Graphs_1995-2008.pdf)

I was being facetious as well, taking a bit of a shot at the tenor of some comments posted in this thread about DFO credibility. I had a fair bit of experience dealing with DFO during my time in the business and emerged with nothing but respect for their attention to their responsibilities and their dedication to salmon in spite of a steadily increasing political intervention that restricted their ability to perform as well as they would have preferred. The problems arise from ministerial intervention for political purposes, not from the work of the boots on the ground.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 29, 2011, 04:52:32 PM
Have a look at page 21 immediately preceding the chart and note the caveats, primarily that this is 2003 data normalized to market fish.

If you were to compare that to the more recent data that includes use for 2003 through 2008, you'll note that use has dropped by 80% in that time period. To really give a true picture of industry practice, data from 2009 and 2010 should also be considered. Regardless, it is apparent that a considerable effort has been successfully applied to reduce use.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/Antibiotic_Graphs_1995-2008.pdf (http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/Antibiotic_Graphs_1995-2008.pdf)

I was being facetious as well, taking a bit of a shot at the tenor of some comments posted in this thread about DFO credibility. I had a fair bit of experience dealing with DFO during my time in the business and emerged with nothing but respect for their attention to their responsibilities and their dedication to salmon in spite of a steadily increasing political intervention that restricted their ability to perform as well as they would have preferred. The problems arise from ministerial intervention for political purposes, not from the work of the boots on the ground.

This is the same industry that has refused to make public their disease records and refused independent labs access to testing for diseases.... In other words any stats that they provide can only be measured as results that they want the public to know (read not likely the truth).

The industry along with DFO and CFIA must become totally transparent in how they are operating/managing these farms. Until they become open about their operations they have no credibility and the public can and is rightfully assuming that they are harming the wild salmon!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on December 29, 2011, 06:23:37 PM
This is the same industry that has refused to make public their disease records...

That's what I thought until I did a little snooping around with the link that absolon provided: http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/Antibiotic_Graphs_1995-2008.pdf

If we go here instead: http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/bcsfa_reports.htm

and look at the "Events" links for each year, you will find what you are looking for.
The earlier years have the worst records.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 29, 2011, 07:16:51 PM
That's what I thought until I did a little snooping around with the link that absolon provided: http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/Antibiotic_Graphs_1995-2008.pdf

If we go here instead: http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/bcsfa_reports.htm

and look at the "Events" links for each year, you will find what you are looking for.
The earlier years have the worst records.

I don't eat farmed salmon so I'm not as concerned as the folks that eat it should be when it comes to the amount of antibiotics that the fish are being fed. I don't believe the antibiotics would have much of a negative effect on the wild salmon.

As far as your second link, it is true that the fish farms send some reports to MAL  but I am highly skeptical as to whether everything is reported. As an example, it is well known that mad cow disease has been in the US for a long time, yet there has seldom been a reported case ..... Some diseases are very bad for business so it is common practice to hide the evidence.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 30, 2011, 09:13:15 AM
Quote
I don't eat farmed salmon so I'm not as concerned as the folks that eat it should be when it comes to the amount of antibiotics that the fish are being fed. I don't believe the antibiotics would have much of a negative effect on the wild salmon.

  While this is completely off topic I can't help but to notice that you repeatedly choose to inflate the facts about antibiotic use on bc salmon farms.  True, some antibiotics are used but in comparison to pork, chicken and beef, salmon farms use far FAR less antibiotics.   Some cycles of bc farm salmon do not even see antibiotics for the simple fact that it just wasn't  necessary.  I think it is interesting how the anti's want us all to believe that the sites are festering disease areas while all the while atlantics are highly suseptable to pacific viruses and many are not seeing medication.

Quote
As far as your second link, it is true that the fish farms send some reports to MAL  but I am highly skeptical as to whether everything is reported. As an example, it is well known that mad cow disease has been in the US for a long time, yet there has seldom been a reported case ..... Some diseases are very bad for business so it is common practice to hide the evidence.

  I highly doubt that would be the case.  For all the years that I saw provincial and now federal  vets coming out and taking samples and looking at the fish.  They have always been very forward with me and open to my questions. 

  I think it is irresponsible for any group in canada to be squaking so early in the discovery of this virus.  I can see why DFO is being very patient in trying to better understand what this virus is.  If we just throw down our hands and say ya this is ISA then there is allot at stake.  Both farmed and wild fisheries would be subject to trade restrictions.  This is just another example of how ruthless and irresponsible the american funded anti farm movement is.  I see it as just another example of how they are more than willing to sacrifice anyone who crosses  their path and in this case it could be the commercial fishers. While we are at it lets test the farmed sturgeon, also lets confirm ISA (quick like) in the closed containment salmon farms that some here love so much. It was found in the "franken fish tanks" so who is to say it isn't everywhere else . I bet all those companies are not rushing to give samples to morton or anyone for testing at this point and can see why.
  The bottom line for me is its been in the water here for a long time. lets learn more about this then react.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 30, 2011, 10:02:16 AM
The only reason any kind of trade embargo on ISAV exposed salmon would even be proposed would be political opportunism of the nature displayed by that Washington congresswoman using Morton's ISA announcement as a way to bolster her public profile in advance of her upcoming re-election bid. Such an embargo would effectively close US borders to all farmed salmon since endemic or imported ISAV has been positively identified in every other jurisdiction growing farmed salmon. If the ISA virus is here in the North Pacific, all US wild stocks will also have been exposed to it. Confirmation of this unknown virus as an ISAV strain will have no effect on trade.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 30, 2011, 11:24:51 AM
 While this is completely off topic I can't help but to notice that you repeatedly choose to inflate the facts about antibiotic use on bc salmon farms.  True, some antibiotics are used but in comparison to pork, chicken and beef, salmon farms use far FAR less antibiotics.   Some cycles of bc farm salmon do not even see antibiotics for the simple fact that it just wasn't  necessary.  I think it is interesting how the anti's want us all to believe that the sites are festering disease areas while all the while atlantics are highly suseptable to pacific viruses and many are not seeing medication.

I agree.....   a little poison is your system is a lot more tolerable than a lot of poison.  ::)

   For all the years that I saw provincial and now federal  vets coming out and taking samples and looking at the fish.  They have always been very forward with me and open to my questions.  


I accept that they have been forward with you and open to your questions but I'm not sure why you would bother sharing that irrelevant bit of information.  ???

I don't feel any confidence whatsoever, that they are being forward with the public when reporting (or not reporting) their diseases. It appears the reporting is entirely voluntary and highly likely that the farms having disease outbreaks choose not to submit their data. Makes the data pretty useless!

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/BCSFA/BCSFA_Fish_Health_Quarterly_Report_Review.pdf (http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/BCSFA/BCSFA_Fish_Health_Quarterly_Report_Review.pdf)

There are currently 13 companies operating private aquaculture facilities in British Columbia. Eight of these (or 62%) are providing data to the database.

The public sector facilities have agreed to also provide data to the database. As of October 2003, information has been provided from eleven Salmon Enhancement facilities operated by DFO and two FwFS hatcheries. While this does not represent all public facilities, it does provide a sampling of the fish health concerns facing the public sector operations.

It should be noted that in each quarter, the number of facilities providing data (i.e. thesample size) does vary, causing some variation in the calculations and results provided.


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on December 30, 2011, 12:22:02 PM
http://www.salmonfarmmonitor.org/osullivan.shtml (http://www.salmonfarmmonitor.org/osullivan.shtml)

"Eating Diseased Fish

Infective Salmon Anaemia (ISA) occurred recently in Ireland, for the first time – found in Scotland in May 1998. Instead of destroying the infected fish, as per protocol, they were promptly killed and sold off. Such diseased fish, if awaiting definitive veterinary diagnosis (which may take some time), may be marketed quite legally. No label warns the consumer that disease dictated the premature slaughter of the fish. While current evidence suggests ISA viruses do not damage humans, who in their right mind would knowingly tuck into fish riddled with pathological organisms?

The germs causing Foot and Mouth Disease rarely affect humans yet the Government spends billions to keep the food chain free of them. Listeria in farmed salmon has resulted in batches of Irish, Scottish and Norwegian salmon being rejected by the Food and Drug Administration in the United States."
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on December 30, 2011, 06:12:05 PM
ISA hearings transcripts from December can be found here.

http://cohencommission.ca/en/Schedule/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on December 31, 2011, 10:56:10 PM
Thanks for the heads-up Chris.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 01, 2012, 10:19:14 PM
Interesting report on the effects of ISA on the Chilean Salmon farming industry.....  http://www.gaalliance.org/update/GOAL11/AdolfoAlvial.pdf (http://www.gaalliance.org/update/GOAL11/AdolfoAlvial.pdf)

The last page contains a significant credit to Dr Kibenge. This is the same Dr. Kibenge that the DFO and CFIA suggested was doing bad science and that his diagnosis of ISA in wild BC salmon was a mistake.....  ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 03, 2012, 11:07:02 PM

Two of the fisheries that have been rated as sustainable might cause a little consternation among those who look a little closer. One is the Alaska ranched salmon program where hatchery reared fish are released to "pasture" on a free range basis. That fishery is considered by many to be upsetting the food web in the North Pacific and cause declines in many stocks among which are the wild salmon stocks. The other declared "sustainable" fishery is the BC sockeye fishery in it's entirety. Never mind that we are in a middle of a judicial inquiry investigating the precipitous decline of the largest of the stocks, the fishery proudly bears the label "sustainable" and can be sold to consumers by organizations like the one posted as an ecologically friendly choice.

Here is an interesting correlation between the Alaskan hatchery produced ranched salmon and Fraser River Sockeye returns. Interesting to note that the Alaskan hatcheries are now releasing more than 1.5 billion juveniles every year, mostly pink and chum.

http://alaskasalmonranching.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/alaskareleasecomparison1.jpg (http://alaskasalmonranching.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/alaskareleasecomparison1.jpg)

Also interesting to note that the counting fences on the Columbia reported more than 1000 pinks returning this year. What makes that bit of data interesting is that there are no pink runs on the Columbia.

Also, for those interested in what was really said at the hearings, the last day's transcript was posted this morning so all the laundry is now hung out on the clothesline.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 04, 2012, 07:44:44 AM
Here is an interesting correlation between the Alaskan hatchery produced ranched salmon and Fraser River Sockeye returns. Interesting to note that the Alaskan hatcheries are now releasing more than 1.5 billion juveniles every year, mostly pink and chum.

http://alaskasalmonranching.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/alaskareleasecomparison1.jpg (http://alaskasalmonranching.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/alaskareleasecomparison1.jpg)

Also interesting to note that the counting fences on the Columbia reported more than 1000 pinks returning this year. What makes that bit of data interesting is that there are no pink runs on the Columbia.

Also, for those interested in what was really said at the hearings, the last day's transcript was posted this morning so all the laundry is now hung out on the clothesline.

I'm not sure how to take your post....   The way that you either include or exclude information in order to make a point is hilarious!  ;D  ;D  On the other hand maybe you are just naive and really believe there is a correlation.... 

How do you explain the sockeye returns for 2010 ($35 million) and 2011 ($5 million)?  I also can't believe that you of all people are posting a chart containing data compiled by Alex Morton....  :o

If the fish farms were forthcoming with their sea lice and disease data then we could draw up a chart showing the correlation between sockeye returns and fish farms killing the fry off with their diseases and sea lice..   Unfortunately as long as the farms are keeping this data secret that won't be possible!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 04, 2012, 12:59:51 PM
I'm beginning to think you intentionally miss the point just for the sake of having an argument and venting a bit of your seemingly limitless bile.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 04, 2012, 01:53:44 PM
I'm beginning to think you intentionally miss the point just for the sake of having an argument and venting a bit of your seemingly limitless bile.


It's interesting how you change the subject and attack when you; 1) don't have the answer for a question you have been asked or 2) you realize that a point you were trying to make just doesn't stand up.

You suggest that there is an "interesting correlation" between Alaskan hatchery produced ranched salmon and Fraser River Sockeye returns as if that is the reason the Fraser sockeye have declined. Yet if you had of included current data it is obvious that there is no correlation whatsoever. In a previous post you seem to suggest that positive correlation is not science. "While attempting to find gross correlations is hardly "science" since a positive correlation doesn't establish causation, finding a lack of correlation is a more significant and meaningful result."

So what is the story.... from your "scientific" perspective?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 04, 2012, 02:36:40 PM
A correlation is an observation of how two variables change relative to each other over time. It does not indicate a causative relationship. That chart compares the variance of Alaskan hatchery releases relative to variance in the returns of Fraser sockeye over a specified period. Whether you can understand the concept or not, it is an interesting correlation that is illustrated by that data set. Only a fool would attempt to argue the meaning of the correlation without extensive further understanding of the situation and only a fool would attempt to suggest that the illustrated correlation between those two variables doesn't exist. Is that what you are doing?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 04, 2012, 02:41:11 PM
A correlation is an observation of how two variables change relative to each other over time. It does not indicate a causative relationship. That chart compares the variance of Alaskan hatchery releases relative to variance in the returns of Fraser sockeye over a specified period. Whether you can understand the concept or not, it is an interesting correlation that is illustrated by that data set. Only a fool would attempt to argue the meaning of the correlation without extensive further understanding of the situation and only a fool would attempt to suggest that the illustrated correlation between those two variables doesn't exist. Is that what you are doing?

You are the one that assumed a correlation...  ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 04, 2012, 02:42:30 PM
That chart IS a correlation.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 04, 2012, 05:40:49 PM
including from Stacey Gaiga writing in the Comox Valley Echo:

 

"As a salmon farming biologist, it's obvious Terry Neilsen couldn't care less what implications any job that sacrifices innocent lives has on the human condition, for a paycheque..... With his head in the sand, just as he is a salmon farming biologist, I imagine it took great courage to explain how short term monetary gain and subsequent pain and suffering is worth the sacrifice, for his lifestyle while he lives on this earth. He and the other ignoramus idiots that refuse to acknowledge, or care, that we need healthy land, air and water to survive as a species, like all the other species we share this life with."

 

From The Seattle Post-Intelligencer:

 

"Suspicious science award: When scientists detected the Infectious Salmon Anemia Virus in West Coast salmon, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency claimed they could find no evidence of same. E-mails revealed the CFIA treating a possible epidemic as a public relations problem. "It is clear we are turning the PR tide in our favor," said one leaked e-mail, which added a few lines later: "One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will also win the war."

 

And from the Burnaby News Leader interviewing Alan James of the Stoney Creek Environment Committee.

 

"Q:What do you think is the most pressing issue for the environment/streamkeeping right now and why?

In B.C., there is an outbreak of infectious salmon anemia (ISA) virus in B.C.’s wild salmon. The probable cause is that Department of Fisheries and Oceans allowed B.C. fish farms to import infected Atlantic salmon eggs from Europe, where the outbreak began and decimated Norwegian fish farms. The virus spread to Chile with similar consequences. Now it is here.

Q:What would be the best thing that could happen for the environment in 2012?

That DFO would take responsibility for the outbreak of ISA virus in B.C.’s wild salmon and require salmon farms to use closed ponds, not the open ocean."
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 04, 2012, 05:41:36 PM
/
 
 Intrafish, 2nd January 2012

 

Salmon cages drift away in Ireland

 

Officials attempt to reel in 30 meter-wide cages, which pose danger to boats.

 

Loose salmon cages in Ireland’s Shetland islands have sparked concern with

officials.

 

The Shetland Coastguard has appealed for help to reel in a dozen large salmon

cages which have broken free of their moorings in the North Sea, reports the BBC

News.

 

The 30 meter-wide cages could be dangerous to navigation around the south coast

of Unst.

 

It is unclear how many fish were in each cage, or how much the incident will

cost their owners, reports The Press Association. The cages are operated by

Lakeland Unst Ltd, which operates between the islands of Yell, Fetlar and Unst

in an area known as Bluemull Sound, which covers approximately 13 square miles.

 

"They are big cages and they are all attached to one another in one big lump,

although they are starting to break up now," a coastguard spokesperson told the

The Press Association.

 

"There was a boat out there that got a hold of it but he didn't have the power

to tow it. In fact, it was towing him. It is drifting around there so it is a

threat to navigation...I doubt very much that there's any fish left in them. It

will be a fair expense."

 

It is thought the cages, which should be filled with salmon ready for harvest

and sale, were cast adrift on Christmas Eve during high winds.

 

 

 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 04, 2012, 05:54:40 PM
None of the links work Chris...
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 04, 2012, 06:13:02 PM
Copy and paste'm into a search, they show up quick.

oh,  I see he is working on it.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 04, 2012, 06:57:47 PM
http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/clayoquot-under-virus-attack
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 04, 2012, 07:03:09 PM
Categorized | Alexandra Morton
Columns: Alexandra Morton On Atlantic Salmon – How Did This Happen?
Posted on 26 December 2011
Tags: Alexandra Morton, Atlantic Salmon, DFO, Dr.Sally Goldes, Environment, environmentalist, fish, Pacific Salmon
By Alexandra Morton. There were large Atlantic salmon imports to BC from eastern Canada decades ago in a deeply misguided venture to establish Atlantic salmon among healthy Pacific salmon stocks. They did not survive for long, but could have left a legacy of pathogens.
This blog reports on a series of excerpts from provincial and federal documents chronicling the conversations around the more recent Atlantic salmon egg imports into BC waters for the purpose of salmon farming. Since the 1980s, people in government have voiced serious biological concerns, trying to defend BC. Most recently today Dr. Sally Goldes who worked for the Province of BC in fish health came forward, Times Colonist article. Despite their efforts the threat of trade sanctions appears to have dominated decision making. The source of eggs changes, suggesting problems, and each time it is preceded by industry pressure. The biology caved to the demands of commerce. But the irony is that the pristine, oxygenated, nutrient-rich waters of British Columbia – that the industry so desperately craves – has become the casualty. All our lines of defence against viral activity in salmon farms were removed one-by-one. There are some heroes in government who really tried and are still trying to protect BC wild salmon.

1982 – Canadian government and Norwegian and Canadian business interests meet:

• “have requested consideration of alternative approaches to inspection and certification of salmon culture facilities” (Tim Carey, DFO, Senior Program Advisor, Aquaculture and Fish Health, letter to Pritchard, DFO* Aquaculture & Resource Development re: importation of Atlantic salmon from Norway)

1984 – Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) approves limited importation of Atlantic salmon, although this is not made public.

1985 – Draft Importation of Salmonids Policy states:
• Imports will cease March 1989
• Source hatcheries must meet Canadian Fish Health Protection Regulations
• 12 month quarantine
• 300,000 eggs per hatchery to maintain reasonable security

• “I am getting increasingly anxious about our importing of Atlantic eggs. My concern is shared by many of my colleagues in both provincial and federal agencies…The fish health measures agree-to jointly by DFO and ourselves in the fall of 1984 are not foolproof. They are based on statistical sampling, so we are taking a risk when it comes to the introductions of virus. That means a risk to the nearly one-billion-dollar wild salmonid fisheries of British Columbia” (Dave Narver, MOE* to Anthony ADM, MOE, Feb 26)

130,000 Atlantic salmon eggs imported from Scotland

1986 – Import policy remains unsigned and is not public

• “…We are deeply concerned with the fact that the risk of exotic diseases is dependent on both the number of imports and their size… Government has made a commitment to support aquaculture, but surely not at the risk of a nearly $1 billion resource in the wild salmon fisheries of British Columbia. The direction the aquaculture industry wants us to go will insure that we import unwanted diseases that can impact on government hatcheries and wild stocks” (Narver, MOE to Gunn, Pacific Aqua Foods, Nov 6).

• “…Imported fish could be more susceptible to local pathogens than native stocks. An outbreak of disease in an imported stock due to a local pathogen, as well as causing losses to that stock could result in a dramatic increase in the pathogen loads in the system to a level which otherwise refractory native fish may not be able to withstand.” (CFSAC Advisory Document 1986) This is an extremely important observation, the unnatural salmon farm environment can cause local pathogens to become dangerous to local stocks.

• “To start with a general comment, I am disappointed with what appears to be the prevailing attitude of a number for companies, that fish health regulations to protect wild stocks are great, but … If we continue the way the aquaculture industry seems to dictate, we can expect to introduce new diseases.” (Dave Narver, MOE to Dale Blackburn, Stolt Sea Farm Canada Inc.)

1,144,000 eggs imported from Scotland

1987 – Federal-Provincial Policy for the Importation of Live Salmonids was signed, but restrictions were lowered.

• quarantine reduced to 120 days to reduce industry cost of dealing with waste water
• suggestion egg imports continue until 1990 ( Davis, DFO to Chamut, DFO, Jul 23)
• “If challenged in court over denial of any imports, what is the legal likelihood we would be successful in denying imports?” (Chamut, DFO to Davis, DFO, June 27)

1,281,000 eggs imported from Scotland / Washington State

1988 – Davis, DFO’s Regional Director of Science for the Pacific Region suggests extension of egg import to 1991

2,700,000 eggs from Scotland / Washington State

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 04, 2012, 07:04:08 PM
Conti
1990 - U.S. salmon farmers claim Canada import restrictions are a trade barrier.

• “Continued large-scale introductions from areas of the world including Washington State, Scotland, Norway and even eastern Canada would eventually result in the introduction of exotic disease agents of which the potential impact on both cultured and wild salmonids in BC could be both biologically damaging to the resource and economically devastating to its user groups” (Chamut former ADM, DFO, to Sarna, Director of Pacific Rim & Trade, Policy Division, International Directories, DFO, 1990)

1991 – The threat of a “Free Trade Ruling” remains, fish farm industry pushes for use of known diseased stocks.

• “I am very concerned about the discussion which took place about the egg import policy and proposed changes… I think [they] have gone too far… The proposed revisions not only open the window indefinitely but essentially allow for unlimited numbers of eggs. I know your Department argues that this has to done to avoid a Free Trade ruling…” (Narver, MOE to Chamut, DFO, Sept 30)

• “As we have no other disease-free source available [other than Iceland] anywhere in the world, I am requesting that you reconsider your position, particularly in the light of the expected change in the DFO regulations” (Needham, Director Aquaculture, BC Packers, to Hoskins, DFO, Dec 3 )

• “DFO and MOE are responsible for the protection of wild and cultured salmonid stocks in British Columbia. Both…agencies firmly believe that repeated large scale shipments of salmonid eggs…expose BC’s wild and farm salmonid stocks to unnecessary disease risk.” (Ginetz, DFO to BC Trout & Char Producers, Jan 16)

• Document titled, The Need for Restrictions on the Importation of Atlantic Salmon into B.C. Atlantic salmon eggs “clearly carry the risk of the inadvertent introduction of exotic disease, or exotic strains of indigenous agents.” (Gary Hoskins, Scientist, DFO memo, Jul 13)

• “Perhaps most important is the fact that new diseases are continually surfacing – their dynamics…are totally unknown. To suggest therefore that vertical transmission should not be a concern would be irresponsible” (Chamut, DFO to Emberley, Director General, Inspection Services Directorate, Jun 11)

• “The proposed revisions not only open the window indefinitely but essentially allow for unlimited numbers of eggs. I know your Department argues that this has to done to avoid a Free Trade ruling.” (Narver, MOE to Chamut, DFO Sep 30)

• “I have the distinct feeling that the seriousness of the interaction between wild/farmed fish has been downplayed by some of your staff” (Narver, MOE to Chamut, DFO Sep 30)

• “I want to therefore emphasize that despite allegations that restrictions were introduced to limit trade for the benefit of BC producers, our foremost and only concern was to protect our wild and cultured stocks from exotic disease… There are a host of examples including cases in the US… where new diseases were accidentally introduced due to inadequate regard for fish health, resulting in significant economic losses to commercial and sport fisheries and more recently the salmon farming community.” (Chamut, DFO to Barrows, Free Trade Coordination Divisions, External Affairs & International Trade, Jan 23)

• “strongly urg[ing] DFO and BCMOE to modify existing policies to provide greater access to larger commercial quantities of Atlantic salmon eggs.” (BC Salmon Farmers Association to Chamut, DFO Jul 15).

735,000 eggs imported from New Brunswick / Ireland / Washington State

1992 – Importation Policy redrafted – signed by Pat Chamut

• No limit on number of eggs per license,
• quarantine reduced from 12 mos., to 120 days or body weight of 3g.

• BC Salmon Farmers Association: “imported fertilized eggs would be more competitive with domestically produced eggs if hatchlings did not have to be raised under quarantine conditions.”

640,000 eggs New Brunswick / Washington State

1993 – The Provincial and Federal government agencies (DFO, MAL*, MOE) Wild/Farmed Salmonid Interactions. Despite all the discusion above and no literature cited it reads:

• “There is also no evidence that wild fish in BC are placed at serious risk from disease occurrence in farmed fish.” (Apr 6).

• Washington State exports 47 million salmon eggs worldwide (10% to BC)

1,447,000 eggs from New Brunswick / Ireland / Washington State

1995 – Pressure from US for BC to relax egg/smolt import regulations

• “Major salmon egg exporters from Washington State agreed that there would be great market potential for their Atlantic salmon eggs in British Columbia if existing import restrictions were removed.” (International Trade – Canada’s Restriction on Certain Salmon Imports, Report to U.S. Senate Slade Gordon, April 1995, GAO/GGD-95-117)

775,000 eggs imported from Washington State / Ireland

1996

1,500,000 eggs imported from Washington State

1997

1,600,000 eggs imported from Washington State

1998

2,400,000 eggs imported from Washington State

1999

2,400,000 eggs imported from Washington State

2000

2,500,000 eggs imported from Washington State

2001

800,000 eggs from Washington State

2002

0 eggs imported

2003 – Dr. Laura Richards Director General, Science, Pacific Region (DFO) petitions John Davis Regional Director, DFO to simply waive the Canadian Fish Health Protection Regulations so Atlantic salmon eggs can come from a hatchery in Iceland that does not meet Canadian protection standard (Oct 2, Cohen Commission, Exhibit)

• “Two BC salmon farming companies wish to import Atlantic salmon eggs from…Icelandic company which is not certified under the Canadian Fish Health Protection regulations (FHPR)
• Failure to provide permission for egg importation may trigger a trade challenge under the World Trade Organization…
• Additionally, DFO could also be viewed as causing a competitive disadvantage of the aquaculture industry by denying them access to alternate strains.”

0 eggs imported

2004

4,700,000 eggs from Iceland

2005

80,000 eggs from Iceland (reported on DFO website), however import permit 05-PBS-1 Jan, 17, 2005 reports 150,000 eggs imported from Iceland that hatched and were destroyed April 19, 2005

2006

0 Eggs imported

2007

1,750,000 eggs from Iceland

2008

800,000 eggs from Iceland

2009

600,000 eggs from Iceland

2010

0
*Acronyms
DFO = federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans, renamed Fisheries and Oceans, Canada
MOE = provincial Ministry of Environment (disbanded when Gordon Campbell became Premier of BC)
MAL = provincial Ministry of Agriculture and Lands, assumed control of salmon farm regulation in 1988 and remains responsible for the seafloor leases
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Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 04, 2012, 07:25:46 PM
Interesting smorgasbord of diseases the salmon feedlots are breeding...
 
Gill Disease (Proliferative Gill Inflammation
Epitheliocysts/Chlamydia & Amoebic Gill Disease)
Paranucleospora theridion
Parvicapsulosis (Parvicapsula pseudobranchicola/Paranucleospora theridion)
Gyrodactylus (‘Salmon Killer’)
Furunculosis (Aeromonas salmonicida)
Infectious Hematopoietic Necrosis (IHN)
Viral Haemorrhagic Septicaemia (VHS)
Cardiomyopathy Syndrome (CMS)
Heart and Skeletal Muscle Inflammation (HMSI)
Plasmacytoid Leukemia (Marine Anemia)
Bacteria Kidney Disease (BKD)
Myxobacterial Infection (Piscine Tuberculosis)
Spironucleosis (Spironucleus salmonicida)
Francisella (Francisellosis)
Yersinia ruckeri (Yersiniosis/Enteric Redmouth/ERM)
Flavobacterium psychrophilum (Bacterial Cold Water Disease/Rainbow Trout Fry Syndrome)
Vibriosis (Cold Water Vibriosis/Hitra Disease)
Moritella Vicosa (Winter Ulcer)
Hemorrhagic smolt syndrome (HSS)
Mad Fish Disease
Botulism (Clostridium botulinum)
Parasitic Meningitis
Costia (Ichthyobodo species)
Tapeworm (Diphyllobothriasis)
Microsporidian encephalitis
Nephrocalcinosis (urolithiasis)
Malignant Intestinal Tumours
Desmozoon lepeophtherii (Paranucleospora theridion) & Autumn Disease and Salmonella.

It's easier to understand why they need to use all those antibiotics.  ::)

Edit: I missed Infectious Salmon Anaemia (ISA) and Infectious Pancreatic Necrosis (IPN)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 04, 2012, 07:53:19 PM
That chart IS a correlation.

What exactly IS the correlation you refer to?  That the Sockeye began their precipitous decline in 1993, falling from an average return of 6 million fish over the previous 15 years (1977-1993) to a low of just over a million fish in 2008 (15 years later) at the time when the Alaskan releases stabilized at an average of 1.5 billion fry (an average that was maintained over 15 the years of the sockeye's steady decline (note there was no steady decrease over the 15 years that the releases were steadily increasing by over 1000% (from 1 million released in 1977 to over 1.4 billion released in 1993), and it was not until the numbers of fry released stabilized at an average of 1.5 billion that the steady decline began). Is THAT the correlation to which you refer?  It would seem to me that a "correlation" would be reflected if the chart showed a steady decline in return as the numbers of fry released increased (this would be a "negative correlation" where function a changes in an opposite response to function b, as opposed to a "positive" correlation where function a increases as function b increases or visa versa).
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 04, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
I thought that was rather self evident. The chart correlates the trends in hatchery releases to the trend in sockeye returns.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 04, 2012, 09:24:55 PM
I thought that was rather self evident. The chart correlates the trends in hatchery releases to the trend in sockeye returns. You seem to be venturing into the area of attempting to interpret the trends. As I mentioned earlier, I would consider any effort to interpret the meaning of the trends based exclusively on the minimal amount of knowledge provided by that chart to be a fool's errand so I'm happy to leave it to others who find the task rewarding.

It kind of detracts from the shock value of that headline when i) you see the paper and the article was published in 2008, ii) you realize that it is based on a statistical evaluation of gross trends and doesn't take into account trends that existed prior to salmon farming or any other factors that would affect wild survival, iii) the study indicates specifically that "In British Columbia (Pacific Canada), only pink salmon showed significant declines correlated with salmon aquaculture." and those results for Pink Salmon are largely based on Kroksek's work.

You're hilarious Absolon. You chastise a poster for quoting an article published in 2008 and then you come on here with a correlation argument using 2 year old data......

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 05, 2012, 07:38:27 AM
Quote
It's easier to understand why they need to use all those antibiotics.  Roll Eyes

This fish farms I work on have not used antibiotics for 5 years.  If it is festering as you suggest, how come the fish do not or have not been dieing at an accelerated rate at any point during all that time?

AF, no matter how many times you are reminded  about antibiotic use on salmon farms being quite low you insist of reintroducing the idea that it is very high.  It just is not true.


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 05, 2012, 08:54:51 AM

AF, no matter how many times you are reminded  about antibiotic use on salmon farms being quite low you insist of reintroducing the idea that it is very high.  It just is not true.


It would be great if we could all accept your word that antibiotic use is quite low, as you seem to be an honest person.....  :D  

It's a known fact that although the salmon farming industry collects disease and antibiotic usage data, not all farms comply with submitting their data (the requirements seem to be voluntary) and the ones that do, likely pick and choose which data they want to send in. When you have a voluntary reporting system like this the data can't be relied on! I suggest that they have little incentive to be honest with their reports as it would affect the marketability of their product.

I realize that DFO audits some of the farms on a random basis, however with the limited resources they have (and less next year) they are auditing a very small percentage of the farms. DFO reports that the antibiotic use is low are just opinions, and probably the equivalent of false advertising for the industry.

Can you provide evidence of accurate reporting by the industry? I need more than just your personal experience on a few farms.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on January 05, 2012, 09:00:17 AM
It would be great if we could all accept your word that antibiotic use is quite low, as you seem to be an honest person.....  :D  

It's a known fact that although the salmon farming industry collects disease and antibiotic usage data, not all farms comply with submitting their data (the requirements seem to be voluntary) and the ones that do, likely pick and choose which data they want to send in. When you have a voluntary reporting system like this the data can't be relied on! I suggest that they have little incentive to be honest with their reports as it would affect the marketability of their product.

I realize that DFO audits some of the farms on a random basis, however with the limited resources they have (and less next year) they are auditing a very small percentage of the farms. DFO reports that the antibiotic use is low are just opinions, and probably the equivalent of false advertising for the industry.

Can you provide evidence of accurate reporting by the industry? I need more than just your personal experience on a few farms.


Actually AF how about you provide some evidence, I need more than just a trio of fear mongers..... :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 05, 2012, 09:21:25 AM
Actually AF how about you provide some evidence, I need more than just a trio of fear mongers..... :D

Here you go.....  I provided the evidence several days ago. :)


I agree.....   a little poison is your system is a lot more tolerable than a lot of poison.  ::)

I accept that they have been forward with you and open to your questions but I'm not sure why you would bother sharing that irrelevant bit of information.  ???

I don't feel any confidence whatsoever, that they are being forward with the public when reporting (or not reporting) their diseases. It appears the reporting is entirely voluntary and highly likely that the farms having disease outbreaks choose not to submit their data. Makes the data pretty useless!

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/BCSFA/BCSFA_Fish_Health_Quarterly_Report_Review.pdf (http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/BCSFA/BCSFA_Fish_Health_Quarterly_Report_Review.pdf)

There are currently 13 companies operating private aquaculture facilities in British Columbia. Eight of these (or 62%) are providing data to the database.

The public sector facilities have agreed to also provide data to the database. As of October 2003, information has been provided from eleven Salmon Enhancement facilities operated by DFO and two FwFS hatcheries. While this does not represent all public facilities, it does provide a sampling of the fish health concerns facing the public sector operations.

It should be noted that in each quarter, the number of facilities providing data (i.e. thesample size) does vary, causing some variation in the calculations and results provided.



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 05, 2012, 04:38:35 PM
I thought that was rather self evident. The chart correlates the trends in hatchery releases to the trend in sockeye returns.

As I pointed out, there does not appear to be a "correlation" (either positive or negative) between the "trends".  When the releases were increasing (1977 - 1993) the returns were more or less stable, and when the releases stablized (1993 - 2008) the returns were declining.  As I pointed out, a correlation between these trends would show the returns decreasing as the releases increased (a "negative" correlation), or perhaps as the releases increased the returns also increased (a "positive" correlation).   What you seem to suggest is that there is a "negative correlation" whereby when the trend of the releases was increasing the trend of the returns was stable, and then when the trend of the returns was stable, the trend of the returns was declining.  This hardy seems like a correlation at all.  What it appears to be is that both changes in the trends occurred at the same time.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: StillAqua on January 05, 2012, 05:52:18 PM
As I pointed out, there does not appear to be a "correlation" (either positive or negative) between the "trends".  When the releases were increasing (1977 - 1993) the returns were more or less stable, and when the releases stablized (1993 - 2008) the returns were declining.  As I pointed out, a correlation between these trends would show the returns decreasing as the releases increased (a "negative" correlation), or perhaps as the releases increased the returns also increased (a "positive" correlation).   What you seem to suggest is that there is a "negative correlation" whereby when the trend of the releases was increasing the trend of the returns was stable, and then when the trend of the returns was stable, the trend of the returns was declining.  This hardy seems like a correlation at all.  What it appears to be is that both changes in the trends occurred at the same time.
If you're really interested in the time series data and you have the stomach for some heavy statistical modeling (or just want to read the summary), there is a technical report on the Cohen Commission website that looked at sockeye productivity, competing pink salmon, ocean sea surface temperature conditions and fish farm production over the last 60 years or so. Conclusion is basically, yeah we see correlations but we don't know if they mean anything.
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project5B-Report.pdf#zoom=100 (http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project5B-Report.pdf#zoom=100)

"The results of this analysis suggest that increasing farmed salmon production, (sea surface temperature) SST and pink salmon abundance increases sockeye salmon mortality. In addition, the influence of aquaculture production on sockeye mortality was predicted to be greater when SST anomalies are negative (i.e., cool for British Columbia populations) and when pink salmon abundance in the North Pacific Ocean is high. However, there was large uncertainty around these estimated effects, which precludes drawing strong inference from these results. The relationships described in this report are correlative, do not on their own establish causation and should be re-examined as more information becomes available."
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 05, 2012, 06:01:36 PM
The juxtaposition of the two data series shows a common point in time where both trends change. Based on the sparseness of the information presented I can't say that is significant or if it's coincidence, but it certainly catches my eye. I think it is an interesting phenomena and so far, I've run across nothing that indicates the events are unrelated or that would suggest the correlation of the data series' is "0".


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 05, 2012, 06:43:03 PM
The juxtaposition of the two data series shows a common point in time where both trends change. Based on the sparseness of the information presented I can't say that is significant or if it's coincidence, but it certainly catches my eye. I think it is an interesting phenomena and so far, I've run across nothing that indicates the events are unrelated or that would suggest the correlation of the data series' is "0".

Is there another data series that we could juxtapose that might offer a true (negative) correlation?  How about the meteoric expansion of production at salmon farms in the 1990s, which (despite a freeze on new tenures) grew from 15,500 tonnes in 1990 to 68,800 tonnes in 2001?   Hmm...as salmon farm production increases in the 1990s, Sockeye returns are decreasing?  Now THAT is a correlation (still does not prove causation perhaps, but a lot more "interesting" to my eyes).
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 05, 2012, 08:57:57 PM
Quote
http://alaskasalmonranching.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/alaskareleasecomparison1.jpg

I think the chart above could be viewed a little differently to better establish a relationship between the two quantities.  The Fraser river sockeye return line (red) should be moved back 3 or 4 years to better represent the time those two groups were in the ocean together at the same age perhaps competing or interacting on the same level.  Seems to me that Alaskan fry released in 1993 would have nothing to do directly with sockeye returns to the fraser the same year.  Those 1993 returned socks were out in the ocean with the 1989 Alaska fry.



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 05, 2012, 09:27:52 PM
Is there another data series that we could juxtapose that might offer a true (negative) correlation?  How about the meteoric expansion of production at salmon farms in the 1990s, which (despite a freeze on new tenures) grew from 15,500 tonnes in 1990 to 68,800 tonnes in 2001?   Hmm...as salmon farm production increases in the 1990s, Sockeye returns are decreasing?  Now THAT is a correlation (still does not prove causation perhaps, but a lot more "interesting" to my eyes).

Indeed, the more data series that are considered, the more complete the picture becomes until eventually, some real understanding is achieved. The errors arise when one decides that some particular correlation is sufficient to provide that understanding and stops considering other inputs.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 05, 2012, 11:16:19 PM
It would be great if we could all accept your word that antibiotic use is quite low, as you seem to be an honest person.....  :D  

It's a known fact that although the salmon farming industry collects disease and antibiotic usage data, not all farms comply with submitting their data (the requirements seem to be voluntary) and the ones that do, likely pick and choose which data they want to send in. When you have a voluntary reporting system like this the data can't be relied on! I suggest that they have little incentive to be honest with their reports as it would affect the marketability of their product.

I realize that DFO audits some of the farms on a random basis, however with the limited resources they have (and less next year) they are auditing a very small percentage of the farms. DFO reports that the antibiotic use is low are just opinions, and probably the equivalent of false advertising for the industry.

Can you provide evidence of accurate reporting by the industry? I need more than just your personal experience on a few farms.


Once again you are confusing your own interpretations as reality, but I have come to expect this from you.  In the website you provide as proof of your argument you concluded that “not all farms comply with submitting their data”.  This seems to imply that some farms wilfully will not participate which is not necessarily true nor is it outlined in the website you attached (but you probably knew that already…right?).  Why don’t you stick to what was actually said instead of exaggerating?  The next beauty comment is “…and the ones that do, likely pick and choose which data they want to send in”.  Really?  How do you know?  Again, you are assuming that fish farmers are being manipulative and dishonest in this regard.

When the Province was in charge they chose a sampling regime which focused most of the effort where there were active farms (called weighting).  This type of sampling is not that uncommon because it focuses your resources (which can be limiting) where most of the fish are – not where they are not.  Sampling does not necessarily mean that you get to every place all the time with maximum effort.  That’s why they call it “sampling”.  Secondly, you also have to know the difference between active and non active farms.  Not all farms are active at the same time, so they are not all going to be visited for audits.  Thirdly,  sometimes farm audits are cancelled due to adverse weather, or overriding health issues such as plankton blooms, low marine oxygen or other unforeseen circumstances.  When this happens the Province (when they were in charge) would try to reschedule the audit in the same quarter.  If you cannot do the audit for these reasons that are beyond your control this could cause variation in the calculations and results provided.  Again, you quotation from your source does not explain any other reasons for this variation.

The only thing I can see somewhat eye-to-eye with you is that budget cuts to the federal public service could affect the enforcing of the new regulations.  That is not the problem with the regulations, staff or DFO – it is with the people holding the purse strings in Ottawa.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 06, 2012, 07:50:50 AM
Once again you are confusing your own interpretations as reality, but I have come to expect this from you.  In the website you provide as proof of your argument you concluded that “not all farms comply with submitting their data”.  This seems to imply that some farms wilfully will not participate which is not necessarily true nor is it outlined in the website you attached (but you probably knew that already…right?).  Why don’t you stick to what was actually said instead of exaggerating?  The next beauty comment is “…and the ones that do, likely pick and choose which data they want to send in”.  Really?  How do you know?  Again, you are assuming that fish farmers are being manipulative and dishonest in this regard.

When the Province was in charge they chose a sampling regime which focused most of the effort where there were active farms (called weighting).  This type of sampling is not that uncommon because it focuses your resources (which can be limiting) where most of the fish are – not where they are not.  Sampling does not necessarily mean that you get to every place all the time with maximum effort.  That’s why they call it “sampling”.  Secondly, you also have to know the difference between active and non active farms.  Not all farms are active at the same time, so they are not all going to be visited for audits.  Thirdly,  sometimes farm audits are cancelled due to adverse weather, or overriding health issues such as plankton blooms, low marine oxygen or other unforeseen circumstances.  When this happens the Province (when they were in charge) would try to reschedule the audit in the same quarter.  If you cannot do the audit for these reasons that are beyond your control this could cause variation in the calculations and results provided.  Again, you quotation from your source does not explain any other reasons for this variation.

The only thing I can see somewhat eye-to-eye with you is that budget cuts to the federal public service could affect the enforcing of the new regulations.  That is not the problem with the regulations, staff or DFO – it is with the people holding the purse strings in Ottawa.


I appreciate you taking the time to put all that in writing. Although I notice that all pro farm supporters seem to need to get personal when they are somewhat short on facts.

In the end I don't feel you said anything different than the website already said (in fewer words). The system set up to report diseases and use of antibiotics is unreliable and cannot be trusted. With expansion of the farms and cutbacks at DFO it will only get worse.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 06, 2012, 09:00:01 AM
I think the chart above could be viewed a little differently to better establish a relationship between the two quantities.  The Fraser river sockeye return line (red) should be moved back 3 or 4 years to better represent the time those two groups were in the ocean together at the same age perhaps competing or interacting on the same level.  Seems to me that Alaskan fry released in 1993 would have nothing to do directly with sockeye returns to the fraser the same year.  Those 1993 returned socks were out in the ocean with the 1989 Alaska fry.

The relationship between the numbers is difficult to capture graphically and even more so statistically. Statistical correlation is relatively easy to define in terms of a positive or negative correlation coefficient for linear relationships of the nature Sandman is describing, but if the relationship is nonlinear such as in the case where reaching a trigger point is a requirement for causing change, statistics is out of it's depth. In such cases, the advice given is that the statistician or researcher must instead refer to the histogram that documents any potential correlation for validation.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 06, 2012, 09:20:31 AM

In the end I don't feel you said anything different than the website already said (in fewer words). The system set up to report diseases and use of antibiotics is unreliable and cannot be trusted. With expansion of the farms and cutbacks at DFO it will only get worse.

And there's the rub. You choose to interpret what the website says in a particular manner just as you interpret all other related information in that same particular manner and never actually get around to supporting your interpretations with anything other than either further unsupported interpretations or supporting information you manufacture to suit. Nobody questions your right to do so, but neither do they accept the delusion you have created from multiple illusions as anything even close to reality.

The problem arises from ignoring the rules of logic. In order for a conclusion to be established as true, there are two conditions that must be met. First, the conclusion must follow naturally from the premises. Second, the premises must be factually and objectively established to be true. A conclusion based on faulty premises is a faulty conclusion; no amount of subjective interpretation or rhetoric in support of that interpretation can turn a faulty conclusion in to a true conclusion.

I'm sure this matters not a bit to you, but it is the reason that so few take your input to the discussion seriously.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 06, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
And there's the rub. You choose to interpret what the website says in a particular manner just as you interpret all other related information in that same particular manner and never actually get around to supporting your interpretations with anything other than either further unsupported interpretations or supporting information you manufacture to suit. Nobody questions your right to do so, but neither do they accept the delusion you have created from multiple illusions as anything even close to reality.

The problem arises from ignoring the rules of logic. In order for a conclusion to be established as true, there are two conditions that must be met. First, the conclusion must follow naturally from the premises. Second, the premises must be factually and objectively established to be true. A conclusion based on faulty premises is a faulty conclusion; no amount of subjective interpretation or rhetoric in support of that interpretation can turn a faulty conclusion in to a true conclusion.

I'm sure this matters not a bit to you, but it is the reason that so few take your input to the discussion seriously.

You kind of lost me by the time I read your second paragraph..... so I can't really comment on your logic.  ???

As far as your comments on being taken seriously, can you share some valid analysis that confirm your observation, or are you shooting from the hip again?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 06, 2012, 10:26:04 AM
With the grasp of logic you've displayed so far, I'm not surprised that you're lost. I am somewhat surprised though that you have no comment anyway.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 06, 2012, 10:28:09 AM
With the grasp of logic you've displayed so far, I'm not surprised that you're lost. I am somewhat surprised though that you have no comment anyway.

 :)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 06, 2012, 12:28:40 PM
Now would be perfect timing for a big press release Chris ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 06, 2012, 12:34:30 PM
The Morton camp does seem rather quiet; must be the season :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 06, 2012, 01:52:53 PM
The Morton camp does seem rather quiet; must be the season :D
Yes steelhead fishing, where you should be too. ;D ;D Lots out there today. ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 06, 2012, 02:43:50 PM
Just so that we keep the topic.....   on topic.

http://www.catchsalmonbc.com/?p=497#more-497 (http://www.catchsalmonbc.com/?p=497#more-497)

The worst possible thing that could happen to Pacific salmon has likely happened: Norwegian, Atlantic Ocean ISA virus that has wiped out every fish farm country in the world has been brought to the Pacific Ocean where there was no ISA – until it was brought to Chile and now mostly likely BC.

There is only one solution: get fish farms out of the water immediately and onto land where they can infect nothing other than themselves. The best data are the Province’s. After seeking to keep them secret Christy Clark’s government relented. See: www.catchsalmonbc.com.

You will be staggered how many hundreds of times HEM (interstitial haemorrhage) and SSC (sinusoidal congestion) were found in fish farm Atlantic salmon. These are the classic symptoms of ISA that wiped out 500 farms in Chile, resulting in a $2billion loss. ISA in Norway is so entrenched it has never been completely wiped out. Scotland looks on the edge of another disease meltdown. And over the last 6 months Chilean farms sequenced for ISA have grown to 23, suggesting another cyclic infectious disaster soon.

Little wonder in Norway, Kurt Oddekalv sent out a news release and filled a farm with rotetone a fish poison, later suggesting it was milk. Farm nets have been cut. In Chile 13,000 have been thrown out of jobs and are destitute. They have become ‘fish pirates’ stealing $70 million in farm fish. We can’t condone civil disobedience, but it is clear anger runs high.

The most disappointing thing at the Cohen Commission this week were the scientists one after the other denying and distancing themselves from their own published research papers, making them unreliable. At least one has more than 100 articles. And the province’s fish-table pathologist said: ISA, what ISA? Egregious.

How much will it cost Kristi Miller to check farm fish SLV and ISA? A measly $18,700 – but DFO has turned her down. The BC public is so angered by this travesty to our iconic fish a fund has sprung up spontaneously and $5,000 has been raised in only a few days. Please give.

Why won’t DFO do it? Many reasons but their 2006 communications strategy, a Cohen exhibit, said those opposed are ‘confused’. They also signed agreements with Norway and Chile to trade scientific research. And they have a new program, CIMTAN, to train several hundred fish scientists. DFO will study the problem until all Pacific salmon are extinct. Then our good neighbours, Alaska and Washington, will have their fish die. There will be hell to pay if DFO has let ISA into the Pacific.

I asked Cohen to have all participants state their conflicts of interest and research money received or to come from fish farms. Spinwatch.org has a grim, alarming document of how Norwegian derivatives spun a story in Scotland that is a Hollywood thriller about a January 9, 2004 Science article saying farmed fish have high concentrations of PCBs, cancer-causing dioxans, etc. You won’t believe the article at first, but then the authority of its research is so incredible, you won’t believe anything a Norwegian derivative says again.

We are not going to get anymore ‘science’. Each infected farm releases 1,440 billion viruses every day. And the 2% of fish disease deaths works out to 1.5 million dead Atlantics every year. Our iconic salmon and five other anadromous salmonids need help now. Fish farms must be on land.

560 Words

dcreid@catchsalmonbc.com

1. The weblink to the provincial fish farm data: http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/dropping-disease-bomb (http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/dropping-disease-bomb)

2. The Spinwatch.org website on the January 9, 2004 Science article on cancer chemicals in farmed fish in Scotland:

http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/45-food-industry/4925-spinning-farmed-salmon-part-1-of-3 (http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/45-food-industry/4925-spinning-farmed-salmon-part-1-of-3).

3. The Cohen commission : http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/ (http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/). The Cohen Commission provincial fish farm data are: 1549 – 217 (BCP002864) 1549 – 206 (BCP002850)

4. The Kristy Miller ISA Fund for fish farm research: http://www.salmonaresacred.org/ (http://www.salmonaresacred.org/).

6. My submission to the Cohen Commission on participants reporting conflicts of interest with fish farms: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/ViewASubmission.php?sub=691
 (http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/ViewASubmission.php?sub=691)
 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 06, 2012, 03:11:21 PM
af, thanks for finding that dated article that will keep this post on topic while Chris is busy fishing.
Good stuff :D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 06, 2012, 05:57:37 PM
af, thanks for finding that dated article that will keep this post on topic while Chris is busy fishing.
Good stuff :D ;D ;D

I'm not feeling the thankfulness Dave....   you're not by any chance being sarcastic are you?   ::)

I didn't hear you protesting when Absolon posted an old chart and then attempted to argue correlation......   ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 06, 2012, 07:24:38 PM
The more I read about ISA, the more I realize how concerned we should be about our wild salmon. The stuff mutates at an alarming rate. Waiting till scientists decide it's here is poor judgement.

"The unnatural concentration of farm salmon causes viral reproduction at a much higher rate than in the relatively empty ocean, and thus a much higher chance of mutation. In Chile, where Norwegian ISA wiped out the industry – a $2billion loss – there are now 20 strains where there was only one Norwegian-imported strain. And to think 100% of diseases can be eliminated by moving farms to land.

Here's a link for the "scientifically" minded.  http://jvi.asm.org/content/84/22/11916.full.pdf (http://jvi.asm.org/content/84/22/11916.full.pdf)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 06, 2012, 07:29:52 PM
Now would be perfect timing for a big press release Chris ;)
Time for truth.

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2012/01/i-just-finished-reading-the-approximately-450-pages-of-transcripts-of-the-last-three-days-of-the-cohen-inquiry-i-highly-rec.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 06, 2012, 07:56:29 PM
Time for truth.
Well, time for an anticipated read at least :D 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 06, 2012, 08:06:24 PM
Time for truth.

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2012/01/i-just-finished-reading-the-approximately-450-pages-of-transcripts-of-the-last-three-days-of-the-cohen-inquiry-i-highly-rec.html

Thanks Chris.  In your link I found the following, which is an interesting read on the ISA hearings. Looks like it was one of the submissions to the Cohen commission.  http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/08%20-%20Aquaculture%20Coalition%20Submissions%20re%20ISAV-corrected.PDF (http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/08%20-%20Aquaculture%20Coalition%20Submissions%20re%20ISAV-corrected.PDF)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 06, 2012, 08:13:43 PM
Well, time for an anticipated read at least :D 
Do not want to overload the boys and also like to leave the hammer to near the end of the discussion. Does that remind you of the Perry Mason TV series. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 06, 2012, 09:48:51 PM
Chris, you've been inhaling too much borax ....  Go out for a breather and think about Della Street :D :D :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 07, 2012, 06:14:03 AM
Chris, you've been inhaling too much borax ....  Go out for a breather and think about Della Street :D :D :D
Most here would never have heard of her. :D :D :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 08, 2012, 08:35:16 AM
Fish farm opponent faces 2nd B.C. defamation case
Activist could lose $125,000........................................

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/08/fish-farm-activist.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/08/fish-farm-activist.html)


Looks like Staniford is getting called to account again.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 08, 2012, 01:06:14 PM
Strange he's not calling on Dr. Morton as an expert witness for his defence ;)

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 08, 2012, 01:09:27 PM
LOL!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 08, 2012, 03:31:24 PM
Fish farm opponent faces 2nd B.C. defamation case
Activist could lose $125,000........................................

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/08/fish-farm-activist.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/08/fish-farm-activist.html)


Looks like Staniford is getting called to account again.

Another example of a multi million dollar corporation bullying (SLAPP) a little guy to try and shut them up....   shameful!!

A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 08, 2012, 04:22:08 PM
http://occupywildsalmon.com/2012/01/08/fish-farm-industry-wants-an-activist-to-shut-up/?mid=5741
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on January 08, 2012, 05:58:30 PM
I hope they nail that numb nut..... ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 08, 2012, 06:03:11 PM
I hope they nail that numb nut..... ;D
Not really a necessary remark, even though you may disagree with what his stand is on this issue.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on January 08, 2012, 07:32:24 PM
Not really a necessary remark, even though you may disagree with what his stand is on this issue.

Oh yes it is.....I dislike fear mongers.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 10:48:22 AM
On reflection, this lawsuit raises a couple of interesting questions.

I suspect that the "Don" who signs the emails that Chris cuts and pastes here is the selfsame Don Staniford. If the court finds him guilty and he is ordered to cease and desist, I can see two potential problems.

The first is whether Chris will share vicarious liability for distributing the defamations.............

The second is what will Chris find to post when the "ready-to-wear" feed to him stops............
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 12:25:59 PM
On reflection, this lawsuit raises a couple of interesting questions.

I suspect that the "Don" who signs the emails that Chris cuts and pastes here is the selfsame Don Staniford. If the court finds him guilty and he is ordered to cease and desist, I can see two potential problems.

The first is whether Chris will share vicarious liability for distributing the defamations.............

The second is what will Chris find to post when the "ready-to-wear" feed to him stops............

Just so you don't lose any more sleep worrying about that stuff.........   I want to assure you that all the negative fish farm press is available on the internet so there is no need to rely on a single source. And I'm sure if Chris doesn't choose to post it, someone else will be happy to.   ;D

It's important that we get these farms out of the ocean and on dry land! It looks like GM salmon raised on dry land may be the answer.

U.S. approves first genetically modified food salmon
By Sarah Schmidt, Postmedia News January 4, 2012

OTTAWA — Canada could have trouble keeping genetically engineered salmon out of the food supply if the U.S. government approves the first genetically engineered animal that people can eat.

And according to an internal analysis obtained by Postmedia News, one potential solution is to simply follow the U.S. lead, in order to avoid trade complications. That would mean allowing the GE fish in the Canadian market.

AquaBounty Technologies, based in Massachusetts, is seeking approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to sell its GE Atlantic salmon, called AquAdvantage, in the United States. But FDA approval could have ramifications for consumers north of the border, Canadian government officials say.

"If the product enters the U.S. market before it is approved to enter the Canadian food supply, it could result in bilateral trade complications. Canadian importers would need to ensure that any salmon or salmon product brought to Canada does not contain illegal GE salmon. Given the complexity of supply chains — particularly for processed foods — this could be difficult," states the Agriculture Canada memo on the commercialization of new technology.

The document, shared with staff in Health Canada's food directorate, was prepared in June 2010 by officials at Agriculture Canada in consultation with staff at the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT). The memo was drafted in preparation for a meeting of a Canada-U.S. committee on agriculture.

"Canada could also face complications in foreign markets if it is unable to provide assurance that its supply chain is free of GE salmon," the document states, raising the possibility of harmonizing approaches when it comes to GE animals.

"We want to work closely with the U.S. to ensure our approval processes for GE animals compliment (sic) one another and that we avoid any potential bilateral complications. Canada-U.S. regulators work closely together on an ongoing basis, but perhaps there is merit in seeking specific opportunities for them to meet and talk about GE animals," the document states under the heading of "talking points" for the meeting.

AquaBounty plans to transform its research facility in Prince Edward Island into a commercial hatchery to produce GE salmon eggs. The eggs would then be sent to an inland fish farm in Panama, where the GE Atlantic salmon would be raised and processed before being shipped as food for the U.S. market.

The company submitted its application to the FDA years ago, and received some good news in September 2010 when the FDA released its preliminary analysis. It concluded that the salmon — engineered to grow twice as fast as normal fish thanks to a growth hormone gene from chinook salmon and a genetic on-switch from the eel-like ocean pout — are safe to eat.

The FDA, which regulates GE animals as new animal drugs, also said in its preliminary analysis that the GE salmon were not expected to have a significant impact on the environment. A final decision on the application has not yet been made, although opponents continue to raise possible health concerns and worries that if the fish escaped, they could threaten wild fish stocks.

Even if the U.S. approves AquaBounty's application to sell GE salmon as food in the U.S., the company will need approval from Environment Canada to manufacture the GE fish eggs in Prince Edward Island, to be shipped to Panama. Approval falls under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act (CEPA).

And if the company wants to sell its GE salmon as food in Canada, AquaBounty would be required to receive approval from Health Canada. Unlike in the U.S., Canada considers a GE animal to be a novel food, not a new animal drug.

As of June 2010, the department had yet received such an application from AquaBounty, the memo states.

Health Canada says it can't say whether this has changed in the past 18 months, citing confidentiality. AquaBounty has also declined to say whether it has filed a submission with Health Canada.

From Michael Hart's perspective, the memo drafted for a bilateral meeting of agriculture officials is an "unexceptional brief and fairly responsible one."

The specialist in trade policy at Carleton University's Norman Paterson School of International Affairs said the authors of the memo review the "implications of not being on the same page" while operating under the general requirement that, "to the extent possible, they should avoid regulatory friction just for the sake of being different," said Hart.

The problem is Health Canada, "typically being slower" than its U.S. counterpart, is often playing catch up, added Hart.

"You know, they wait for everybody else to decide and then they make the same decision. It hasn't reached that stage yet and that might create some short-term trade problems. We've been working for years to create an integrated market and an integrated market requires that you smooth out as many as these problems as you can."

Leo Broderick sees things differently. The vice-chair of the Council of Canadians says the regulatory process for approving a GE animal in Canada is different — and that's a good thing, even if it means food inspections would need to be beefed up to ensure the GE salmon doesn't enter the food system in Canada.

"If it's approved in the United States as a veterinary drug, then it will have to undergo an evaluation in Canada as a novel food, and I expect the scrutiny will be much tighter here in Canada," said Broderick, based in Charlottetown.


Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/technolog...606/story.html (http://www.theprovince.com/technolog...606/story.html)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 01:00:36 PM
The second is what will Chris find to post when the "ready-to-wear" feed to him stops............
http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/restaurants
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 01:11:03 PM
A small correction, should Staniford be found guilty, the issue affecting Chris and any other person who disseminates Staniford's defamations would be secondary liability otherwise known as indirect infringement, not vicarious liability. Whether the material is otherwise available or not, I suspect that secondary liability would arise because the material was directly provided by Staniford and more importantly, includes his "editorial" comments, and I use that description very loosely.

I doubt that any of you reactionaries have either the inclination or the wherewithal to source the material on your own. I have to say that in all my years of watching these discussions, I have yet to see any anti-farm information that didn't originate in the drainpipes that flow from Saniford's or Morton's or any of the other activist websites. I have also yet to see any reactionary rationally summarize their objections in their own words. It is inevitably a steady flow of cut and paste of other people's comments, and it is almost inevitably followed by a duck and cover by the cut and paster when asked to explain their personal thoughts on the matter. There is a rare exception to that rule and it involves people who simply make up their own facts in response; know what I mean, Vern?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
http://www.wildsalmonfirst.org/restaurants

LOL.......

Funny thing about that site Chris. There is no listing anywhere on it about who is behind it: it's completely anonymous. There's some real courage of conviction!

Either that or the linkage to "Superheros for Salmon" is a dead giveaway and it's really a site where defamatory comments can be made without attaching anyone's name to them. Once again, there's some real courage of conviction, or is it an attempt to avoid conviction?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on January 09, 2012, 01:20:44 PM
"it involves people who simply make up their own facts in response; know what I mean, Vern? "
 
 
 
Ya like that absalone...........
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 01:30:30 PM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/fish-farm-foe-defiant-as-court-date-nears/article2295427/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/01/08/fish-farm-activist.html

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/canada/fierce+fish+farm+opponent+remains+defiant+in+the+face+of+bc+defamation+case/6442554990/story.html

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120108/bc_fish_farm_supreme_court_120108/20120108?hub=BritishColumbiaHome&mid=573

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/64839--fierce-fish-farm-opponent-remains-defiant-in-the-face-of-b-c-defamation-case

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/01/08/fierce-fish-farm-opponent_n_1192219.html

http://www.brandonsun.com/business/breaking-news/fierce-fish-farm-opponent-remains-defiant-in-the-face-of-bc-defamation-case-136899718.html?thx=y

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/breakingnews/fierce-fish-farm-opponent-remains-defiant-in-the-face-of-bc-defamation-case-136899718.html

http://www.680news.com/news/national/article/317314--fierce-fish-farm-opponent-remains-defiant-in-the-face-of-b-c-defamation-case

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/50037-fish-farm-company-has-beef-industry-opponent
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 01:39:52 PM
LOL!

You need some practice Chris. That's ten links to the word for word same story in different media outlets. Now, could you tell us your own personal views on that subject?

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 01:42:06 PM
I hope that fish gets FRIED!!!  I wonder if Stanford will wear one of his super hero suits to court.

Regardless of the outcome I expect that the anti's are going to (they have already started) turn this case into a david and goliath situation as much as they can.  They are already talking about freedom of speech and bla bla bla which detracts from the facts.  I suspect that on the evening of the first day of court there will be allot of press releases from the morton camp conjuring up all kinds of hand picked crap prematurely before all the fact are out.  Wait for it. Its is coming.

If stanford does get fried I don't think he will pay the $125000 in fines personally himself.  That amount is just a drop in the bucket from the funding available and well worth the media coverage it will receive. It is by far the cheapest media coverage available. Its kinda a loose loose for Mainstream.

Lots of "don't forget to donate" on some of the recent posts.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 01:48:34 PM
Quote
LOL!

You need some practice Chris. That's ten links to the word for word same story in different media outlets. Now, could you tell us your own personal views on that subject?

Just like a fish story, trying to make it look larger than it is.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 02:11:39 PM
Just like a fish story, trying to make it look larger than it is.
   ;D ;D ;Just showing this subject is getting lots of media attention throughout Canada.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 02:20:23 PM
Quote
   Grin Grin ;Just showing this subject is getting lots of media attention throughout Canada.

Ya, well thanks for not taking up 3/4 of a page in doing so, although that way was more effective, kinda sneaky actually.  IT would have been so obvious had you re posted the same story 10 TIMES over and over and over which is basically what we are used to anyways. 

just sayin'.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 02:20:54 PM
Vancouver Sun article
 Number of birds spotted at Brackendale eagle count still below historic highsJanuary 08, 2012 ...certainly believe it’s the fish farms,” Froslev said. “Chum...that’s where all the fish farms are.” Environmentalists...for years alleged that the farms are a breeding ground for parasites, which latch onto fish and feed on the mucous.

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Number+birds+spotted+Brackendale+eagle+count+still+below+historic+highs/5965005/story.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 02:25:23 PM
The importance of preserving our wild salmon.

http://www.theprovince.com/Eagle+numbers+free+fall/5965715/story.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 02:34:31 PM


If stanford does get fried I don't think he will pay the $125000 in fines personally himself.

That's an interesting question. I've wondered why Staniford pulled up stakes in Scotland and moved to BC when there is still plenty of work for him to do back home. What has occurred to me is that there isn't the same amount of third party grant money available in Scotland as there is here. Even though Staniford claims to be unemployed, he is able to travel fairly freely, fund a number of websites and lives in a not inexpensive part of the province. Donations are a possibility, but even the much higher profiled Morton has trouble putting together $50k in donations annually so I suspect he raises considerably less through website begging. None of his associations publish sources of funds, but I think it's fairly clear that he has found a teat of some sort to latch on to, one worth leaving Scotland for. Should he lose in court, I suspect there will be problems collecting, and if Mainstream is awarded costs, I suspect he will skip town. Collecting civil penalties is not quite as easy as collecting criminal fines and if he has any assets, with his history, he will have learned to protect them.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 09, 2012, 02:36:51 PM
Ah, it's about time we got back to sea lice as the culprit for poor chum returns.  Let's not talk about gravel mining, floods, poor logging practices or over fishing.  Give me a break :'(
Anyone who blames salmon aquaculture for this stock collapse needs their head read.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 02:44:53 PM
Ah, it's about time we got back to sea lice as the culprit for poor chum returns.  Let's not talk about gravel mining, floods, poor logging practices or over fishing.  Give me a break :'(
Anyone who blames salmon aquaculture for this stock collapse needs their head read.
Be careful or Froslev will be after you. ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 02:45:33 PM
But Dave, the guy is obviously a salmon expert and he does mention that DFO is withholding information from him.

It must be true!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 03:18:18 PM
Quote
That's an interesting question. I've wondered why Staniford pulled up stakes in Scotland and moved to BC when there is still plenty of work for him to do back home. What has occurred to me is that there isn't the same amount of third party grant money available in Scotland as there is here. Even though Staniford claims to be unemployed, he is able to travel fairly freely, fund a number of websites and lives in a not inexpensive part of the province. Donations are a possibility, but even the much higher profiled Morton has trouble putting together $50k in donations annually so I suspect he raises considerably less through website begging. None of his associations publish sources of funds, but I think it's fairly clear that he has found a teat of some sort to latch on to, one worth leaving Scotland for. Should he lose in court, I suspect there will be problems collecting, and if Mainstream is awarded costs, I suspect he will skip town. Collecting civil penalties is not quite as easy as collecting criminal fines and if he has any assets, with his history, he will have learned to protect them.

He has already been convicted of this once. One has to wonder why he would venture into such territory once again.  I would say because it suits his cause and he personally/financially will not suffer.

Media blitz coming soon.  Chris, this means 3 or 4 clicks of your mouse.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 03:23:09 PM
Media blitz coming soon.  Chris, this means 3 or 4 clicks of your mouse.
yes!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 09, 2012, 03:36:38 PM
He has already been convicted of this once. One has to wonder why he would venture into such territory once again.  I would say because it suits his cause and he personally/financially will not suffer.

From Canadian Press" In June of that year he issued two news releases that questioned Tofino's Creative Salmon Company Ltd.'s use of malachite green, an antibiotic and suspected carcinogen, on market fish.

Creative Salmon sued Staniford for defamation, and in January 2007, a Supreme Court of B.C. judge ordered him to pay $85,000 in damages in legal fees. But Staniford appealed and won a new trial. Then, the Supreme Court of Canada said it would not hear a subsequent appeal by the company".
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 03:47:15 PM
3 things:

Creative never used malachite green.

Creative was not using antibiotics on harvest fish.

The court did not say they would not see it again.  Creative dropped it because there was a change in the law which was reason they lost the appeal.

Guess it is safe to say that it is totally legal for stanford and others to just lie or say what they please regardless of what the truth is.

And don't forget the part where he fled the country to avoid paying the fine.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 04:57:58 PM
I hope that fish gets FRIED!!!  I wonder if Stanford will wear one of his super hero suits to court.

Regardless of the outcome I expect that the anti's are going to (they have already started) turn this case into a david and goliath situation as much as they can.  They are already talking about freedom of speech and bla bla bla which detracts from the facts.  I suspect that on the evening of the first day of court there will be allot of press releases from the morton camp conjuring up all kinds of hand picked crap prematurely before all the fact are out.  Wait for it. Its is coming.

If stanford does get fried I don't think he will pay the $125000 in fines personally himself.  That amount is just a drop in the bucket from the funding available and well worth the media coverage it will receive. It is by far the cheapest media coverage available. Its kinda a loose loose for Mainstream.

Lots of "don't forget to donate" on some of the recent posts.

You probably meant lose lose......  wasn't going to correct you but, at least you know one person read what you posted.   ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 05:06:35 PM

Regardless of the outcome I expect that the anti's are going to (they have already started) turn this case into a david and goliath situation as much as they can.  They are already talking about freedom of speech and bla bla bla which detracts from the facts.  I suspect that on the evening of the first day of court there will be allot of press releases from the morton camp conjuring up all kinds of hand picked crap prematurely before all the fact are out.  Wait for it. Its is coming.

If stanford does get fried I don't think he will pay the $125000 in fines personally himself.  That amount is just a drop in the bucket from the funding available and well worth the media coverage it will receive. It is by far the cheapest media coverage available. Its kinda a loose loose for Mainstream.

Lots of "don't forget to donate" on some of the recent posts.

.... and you accuse the anti fish farm proponents of dreaming up conspiracy theories. Staniford can't even afford a half decent lawyer...  and can only afford to call one witness.

It's a risky move for a big corporation to bully a little guy. The media publicity will not be good for the feedlots. In the end if they don't drop the suit, they may win this battle yet lose("loose") the war.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 05:13:18 PM
He has already been convicted of this once. One has to wonder why he would venture into such territory once again.  I would say because it suits his cause and he personally/financially will not suffer.


Apparently the Scottish bullying exercise in 2001 never made it to court, so it's hard to believe he was convicted.   ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 05:40:43 PM
Quote
You probably meant lose lose......  wasn't going to correct you but, at least you know one person read what you posted.   Grin

ya, lose lose.

And yes the one person who should read it.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 05:46:38 PM

A well written article by Staniford  http://www.eurocbc.org/page205.html (http://www.eurocbc.org/page205.html)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 06:36:17 PM
Apparently the Scottish bullying exercise in 2001 never made it to court, so it's hard to believe he was convicted.   ???

Actually, the incident happened in 2004 and involved a press release issued by Staniford containing statements that were not true.

The press release can be seen here: http://icsf.net/icsf2006/ControllerServlet?handler=EXTERNALNEWS&code=getDetails&id=16345&userType=&fromPage= (http://icsf.net/icsf2006/ControllerServlet?handler=EXTERNALNEWS&code=getDetails&id=16345&userType=&fromPage=)

The lawyers letter to Staniford requesting correction and the response from Staniford's representative can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:H25Q0V4zjqwJ:www.salmonfarmmonitor.org/documents/westerross.doc+scotland+salmon+staniford+legal+-bc+-mainstream+-creative&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh5fdpmozkd_3aSLbomhxt80oYRK14fccbeBqxuDlJpObmEgbDM2UxsJH9EjQo_reNH0abGO5EfFUEHsXxmuW2Y18EyHlmhgRZNVE3YF9JzVrKTXFMWmByi3Dhg52Z_tDh1JtHK&sig=AHIEtbQPpBlHmDC9O1o4ZyiIoLCHnRnWuw (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:H25Q0V4zjqwJ:www.salmonfarmmonitor.org/documents/westerross.doc+scotland+salmon+staniford+legal+-bc+-mainstream+-creative&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh5fdpmozkd_3aSLbomhxt80oYRK14fccbeBqxuDlJpObmEgbDM2UxsJH9EjQo_reNH0abGO5EfFUEHsXxmuW2Y18EyHlmhgRZNVE3YF9JzVrKTXFMWmByi3Dhg52Z_tDh1JtHK&sig=AHIEtbQPpBlHmDC9O1o4ZyiIoLCHnRnWuw)

In a nutshell, Staniford wasn't threatened, he was asked to recant untrue comments. He agreed to comply and blamed someone else for the error.

Hardly a case of bullying.

Edit: just to note that although Staniford agreed to correct the press release, it is clearly apparent from reading the web archived copy that he didn't do that. The archived copy still contains the lie. It was shortly after this incident that Staniford left Scotland.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 08:34:16 PM
Apparently Staniford has been bullied many times. The incident I referenced was when "Staniford said he faced his first legal threat in 2001 from a Scottish salmon farming company, but no trial ever took place".

Staniford has been very effective in revealing the short cuts that the salmon farming industry has been taking in their rush to generate profits for their shareholders without regard for the environment or in years past, people's health. He has called them to come clean on the use of malachite green, high levels of dioxin in their salmon, and the fact that it takes 3-4 kg of fish to grow 1 kg of farmed salmon. He has warned about the pollution that fish farms generate from the chemicals and salmon waste as well as the harm to wild salmon from the sea lice.

As a result governments around the world are requiring the feedlots to become more responsible in looking after the environment as well as the safety of the product they produce. The industry has obviously come a long way but until they become land based the industry will continue to pollute our environment. People like Staniford, Morton and others are critical to making the industry safe.

Don Staniford is seen as a formidable opponent of the fish feedlots and as such is going to continue to be bullied by them in an attempt to muzzle him.

A small correction, should Staniford be found guilty, the issue affecting Chris and any other person who disseminates Staniford's defamations would be secondary liability otherwise known as indirect infringement, not vicarious liability. Whether the material is otherwise available or not, I suspect that secondary liability would arise because the material was directly provided by Staniford and more importantly, includes his "editorial" comments, and I use that description very loosely.

I doubt that any of you reactionaries have either the inclination or the wherewithal to source the material on your own. I have to say that in all my years of watching these discussions, I have yet to see any anti-farm information that didn't originate in the drainpipes that flow from Saniford's or Morton's or any of the other activist websites. I have also yet to see any reactionary rationally summarize their objections in their own words. It is inevitably a steady flow of cut and paste of other people's comments, and it is almost inevitably followed by a duck and cover by the cut and paster when asked to explain their personal thoughts on the matter. There is a rare exception to that rule and it involves people who simply make up their own facts in response; know what I mean, Vern?

You have come on here purporting to be an expert on aquaculture..... and now you seem to be implying that you are an expert on legal matters. Your arrogance is unbelievable! If you stuck to the topic and provided input your attitude would be tolerable. Instead you belittle people and now you are threatening them. It may make you important in your own mind, it does nothing for your reputation on this board.

It does seem to be the fish farm industry's way to approach any adversity.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 08:44:34 PM
AF,  Could you remind me what you are specialized at.  I forget easily but if I had to guess I would say de-marketing activist.  Correct me if I am wrong since your the only guy reading my post.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 08:48:05 PM
AF,  Could you remind me what you are specialized at.  I forget easily but if I had to guess I would say de-marketing activist.  Correct me if I am wrong since your the only guy reading my post.

I'm just a fisherman who wants to be able to keep fishing for wild salmon....

By the way I appreciate your humor.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 08:50:03 PM
Do you have a job or a profession?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
I'm a CFP (Certified Financial Planner).
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2012, 09:04:04 PM
You seem fairly rehearsed  in the anti salmon farming arguments.  That is why I asked. 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 09, 2012, 09:05:09 PM
Apparently Staniford has been bullied many times. The incident I referenced was when "Staniford said he faced his first legal threat in 2001 from a Scottish salmon farming company, but no trial ever took place".

Staniford has been very effective in revealing the short cuts that the salmon farming industry has been taking in their rush to generate profits for their shareholders without regard for the environment or in years past, people's health. He has called them to come clean on the use of malachite green, high levels of dioxin in their salmon, and the fact that it takes 3-4 kg of fish to grow 1 kg of farmed salmon. He has warned about the pollution that fish farms generate from the chemicals and salmon waste as well as the harm to wild salmon from the sea lice.

As a result governments around the world are requiring the feedlots to become more responsible in looking after the environment as well as the safety of the product they produce. The industry has obviously come a long way but until they become land based the industry will continue to pollute our environment. People like Staniford, Morton and others are critical to making the industry safe.

Don Staniford is seen as a formidable opponent of the fish feedlots and as such is going to continue to be bullied by them in an attempt to muzzle him.

It seems that Staniford has a history of legal trouble associated with his statements about salmon farms and after doing a bit of research, it seems he has something of a history of misuse of the truth as well; the latter seems to be the reason for the former. I don't think I'm inclined to take anything he says as gospel; you, however, are free to apply your own standards.

Quote
You have come on here purporting to be an expert on aquaculture..... and now you seem to be implying that you are an expert on legal matters. Your arrogance is unbelievable! If you stuck to the topic and provided input your attitude would be tolerable. Instead you belittle people and now you are threatening them. It may make you important in your own mind, it does nothing for your reputation on this board.

It does seem to be the fish farm industry's way to approach any adversity.

Does this mean I'm off the Christmas card list?

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 09, 2012, 09:20:50 PM

Does this mean I'm off the Christmas card list?


I won't answer that right now, as I have the whole year to think about it.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 10, 2012, 12:09:04 AM
I think it is time to reboot these arguments.  How about we take a moment to restate our arguments for our support of open net salmon farms vs our opposition to them.  Let us not "cut and paste" from other sources but simply state why we feel these "agri-businesses" should be allowed to continue to operate in BC waters.  I personally have been opposed to farming of Atlantic Salmon in BC waters from the beginning.  The idea that any level of government would allow and even promote the transplanting of an alien species in this day and age is beyond me.  There have been enough studies done on the negative impact of the introduction of an alien species into an ecosystem that the whole business should never have received approval in the first place.  The risks were simply too high.  Whether the current salmon farms in BC are responsible for the introduction or spread of ISA is, quite frankly, irrelevant. Many have argued that salmon farms are no different than the giant cattle and chicken feedlots that operate around the country and feed millions of North Americans, and no one is complaining about them.  Really? No one? Where have you been for the last 30 odd years?  The argument that salmon farms are necessary to feed the world's growing populations is laughable, just as it is laughable that there is a need for a quarter pounder or a bucket of chicken for dinner.  There is no need for these giant feedlots to feed the world's populations.  It is a want and nothing more.  The American (and Canadian) meat diet is not a "necessity" and in fact it is the very cause of many of the world's food shortage problems, as well as many of the world's environmental problems. It takes over 4 times as much land to grow feed for cattle than it does to grow food you would consume yourself.  From the sounds of the ratio of feed to pounds of harvested salmon, the same is the case for farmed salmon.  It has been argued that the farms are needed to meet the demand for salmon, a demand that would put undue pressure on wild salmon stocks.  This is only true if we accept that the rich restaurant patron in mid town USA needs a salmon dinner.  This is simply not the case.  She needs a salmon dinner as badly as I need an Australian orange (I saw some in my local grocery store today).  How much air plane fuel was consumed to ship that Australian orange to me?  Is it necessary?  Do I need an Orange from Australia?  Would an orange from California not due?  In fact, locally grown strawberries are a better source of Vitamin C, and with the help of greenhouses, we can get them practically year round.  Even if you were to accept the argument that we need feedlots to feed the masses (I personally do not buy that), the major difference between the cattle and chicken feedlots, just like a greenhouse (which has it's own negative environmental impacts), and open net salmon farms, is that the environmental outputs (be they excess fertilizer runoff, wastes, pesticides, etc) can be more easy controlled on land than in the open sea where environmental outputs are released unchecked, into the environment.  You do not need a Ph.D. in Biology to see that this is not responsible.  The only need associated with salmon farms is the need for profits.  You need profits to operate, you need profits to pay shareholders, you need profits to make this enterprise worthwhile.  Open net farming is cheaper, therefore the profits are greater.  That is the ONLY reason open net farming is practiced in BC.  It is the same argument the forest companies made for clear cut logging.  It is more efficient and really, who is it hurting?  Do you have any scientific proof that removing biodiversity is going to have a negative impact in the long run?  What? You environmental wackado's  think some insect infestation is going to come along and wipe out BC's forests?  Give me a break.  That can never happen.

So now.  Why SHOULD open net farming of Atlantic Salmon continue in BC?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 10, 2012, 09:33:59 AM
You aren't arguing against salmon farming here. You're arguing against the economic paradigm that our society has adopted and the social paradigm that arises from that economic paradigm. Your argument with respect to the paradigm is indeed valid and I agree with you but the vested interests supporting it are so great and so well established that continuing the system as it currently exists is inevitable. Any discussion of the costs and benefits of salmon farming has to assume that the existing paradigm is a given, that wants rather than needs are and will remain the drivers of the system, and that costs and benefits must be looked at within that framework.

Under those conditions, an argument for or against the farms needs to focus on the specifics of the harm done versus the gains arising from it's practice; the discussion must address measurable outcomes as opposed to philosophical concepts. Further, the discussion needs to deal with actual outcomes rather than theoretical outcomes. Any unrealized outcomes need to be considered in light of the real probability of occurrence rather than given the weight of actual outcomes. In other words, the rhetoric needs to be removed from the discussion leaving only the facts to be evaluated if the discussion to have real value.

By the way, the pine beetle infestation is a result of fire suppression and warming climate eliminating the hard freezes necessary to kill the insect, not a result of clearcut logging.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 10, 2012, 04:14:29 PM
You aren't arguing against salmon farming here.

Not true.  I am clearly arguing against farming Atlantic Salmon (an exotic species) in BC waters in open net pens.

You're arguing against the economic paradigm that our society has adopted and the social paradigm that arises from that economic paradigm. Your argument with respect to the paradigm is indeed valid and I agree with you but the vested interests supporting it are so great and so well established that continuing the system as it currently exists is inevitable. Any discussion of the costs and benefits of salmon farming has to assume that the existing paradigm is a given, that wants rather than needs are and will remain the drivers of the system, and that costs and benefits must be looked at within that framework.

Agreed.  My point is that costs (be they potential or actual) of open pen farming of Atlantic Salmon in BC waters, far outweigh the proposed benefits, if we accept that there is no real need for feedlots in our oceans.

Under those conditions, an argument for or against the farms needs to focus on the specifics of the harm done versus the gains arising from it's practice; the discussion must address measurable outcomes as opposed to philosophical concepts. Further, the discussion needs to deal with actual outcomes rather than theoretical outcomes. Any unrealized outcomes need to be considered in light of the real probability of occurrence rather than given the weight of actual outcomes. In other words, the rhetoric needs to be removed from the discussion leaving only the facts to be evaluated if the discussion to have real value.

So in other words we need to see an actual environmental disaster caused by the open net farms to occur before we even consider that they may be a higher risk to the natural environment than the so-called benefits.  I have got to say I am glad you are not our environment minister.

By the way, the pine beetle infestation is a result of fire suppression and warming climate eliminating the hard freezes necessary to kill the insect, not a result of clear-cut logging.

True. However, the affects of any insect infestation is magnified by the loss of bio diversity, just ask any wheat farmer on the prairies in the 1930s (a pine beetle population will spread more easily through a forest consisting of only pine trees of a similar age faster than through a stand of mixed trees in various stages of their growth cycle).

You see, the problem with the arguments that we must have documented scientific proof that the salmon farms are harming the environment, ensures that any lessons learned from the past (from similar but perhaps not identical situations) are negated, and that ensures that we will only act when it may be too late to stop the damage done. 

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

Bottom line line here is that you have made no arguments for having Atlantic Salmon farmed in BC waters in open net pens, only more attempts to suggest there is no reason for not having them.  If there is good no reason for having them here, why risk our natural environment at all?  Even if the risks are astronomically small, they would outweigh nil (the size of the arguments "for" as expressed thus far).
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 10, 2012, 11:01:49 PM
You may be trying to argue against salmon in ocean pens, but you are using arguments against the social paradigm, and those arguments do not cross because like it or not, we exist and must function within that paradigm.

There is a very good reason for having fishfarms operating, one so obvious that I'm surprised I need mention it. That of course would be the economic impact; the direct, indirect and induced activity and jobs that are associated with the industry. We do need the jobs and wages in the hinterlands, the taxes raised contribute to the operation of the province and businesses benefit by supplying and servicing the industry. Direct output exceeds $500 million and the multipliers for indirect and induced output associated raise the total to greater than $800 million in economic impact every year. That number comes close to the combined economic impact of both the commercial and sport sector.

Farms have been operating over thirty years in the province and we have not yet seen that "imminent" catastrophe the reactionaries have been claiming is about to strike for 29 years. Farming is not done blindly and without regard to potential risks and impacts. The industry has been under tight regulation and careful scrutiny from regulators, scientists and reactionaries since it's inception. The problems that have been identified have been addressed to mitigate those problems; that process is and always has been ongoing. For all of the caterwauling and keening about the catastrophe that is salmon farming in BC, there is a thirty year history of successful operation and there has yet to be discovered a direct and irrefutable linkage to the decline of wild stocks or environmental disaster.

The industry contributes too much economic value to be shut down on the unsubstantiated whim of those whose total knowledge of the industry is based on subjective impressions derived from the media and "gut feeling". It takes more than platitudes such as "Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it" to effect change. Those merely serve to underline the lack of specific knowledge and understanding of what one is condemning with that statement.

If you would like to see changes, the way to accomplish that is to first educate yourself so that you truly have a grasp of the industry and it's operations, the biology of both fish and environment and the regulatory regime that applies so that you have a real understanding of the risk and the probabilities. The people who are involved with operating and regulating farms have that knowledge and if you want to get through to them to make changes, you need to be operating near their level of understanding and be prepared to engage in a two way discussion where you listen as much or more than you talk.

Here are some readings on the economic impacts:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/reports/4-sector/toc-intro-highlights.pdf (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/reports/4-sector/toc-intro-highlights.pdf)

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/reports/4-sector/multipliers-notes.pdf (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/reports/4-sector/multipliers-notes.pdf)

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/ref/aqua-es2009-eng.htm#ch32 (http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/ref/aqua-es2009-eng.htm#ch32)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:i0YIX-fZLVMJ:www.truetofinonews.com/pdfs/Aquaculture-Vol2-SCSA.pdf+bc+salmon+farm+production+trends&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjk0WkG79WpMR1QU1OAeaFpfntcAawk-rfQXWGohBaGIInjBHurahActKqb3EeET8HLk3PUjDHPCTlYhr5fFNqIVNzly3Vv8K3gIFqGgknqIJbj0e4PLTjYuEXgqbnZoDhZ-Bgg&sig=AHIEtbQhWnJqHSYB0aA1c7NliT3Q6n0T7Q (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:i0YIX-fZLVMJ:www.truetofinonews.com/pdfs/Aquaculture-Vol2-SCSA.pdf+bc+salmon+farm+production+trends&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjk0WkG79WpMR1QU1OAeaFpfntcAawk-rfQXWGohBaGIInjBHurahActKqb3EeET8HLk3PUjDHPCTlYhr5fFNqIVNzly3Vv8K3gIFqGgknqIJbj0e4PLTjYuEXgqbnZoDhZ-Bgg&sig=AHIEtbQhWnJqHSYB0aA1c7NliT3Q6n0T7Q)


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on January 11, 2012, 07:25:37 AM
"Farms have been operating over thirty years in the province and we have not yet seen that "imminent" catastrophe the reactionaries have been claiming is about to strike for 29 years. "



At the beginning there was a lot less numbers of fish being farmed. BC Liberals allowed major expansion and some farms even expanded without permit. Much like building a house using monkeys. As the numbers go up the likelyhood of a disaster goes up. But of course that may seem like shottishe of the anti fish farm people to you.

I'm also hoping your kidding about your blind support for the current cheap method of raising farmed Salmon. But somehow I don't think you are.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 11, 2012, 08:31:14 AM
Quote
some farms even expanded without permit

Details please.

Quote
your blind support for the current cheap method of raising farmed Salmon

This would be the underlying error in your assumptions about me. My support is informed by both education and first hand experience. There is nothing blind about it.

What do you back your opposition with?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 11, 2012, 11:50:53 AM
The fish farm industry like any business is driven by profits (no problem there). In order to generate profits the industry must convince(advertising) the public  that their product is necessary. In order to grow product profitably, they need to be able to control (minimize costs) and maximize the price they sell the product for. Anything that comes in the way of maximizing profits is not good for business and not good for investors.

The open net salmon farming business started up because business saw an opportunity to make a profit. Just think; free rent, minimal utility costs, growing a product that the public likes to eat and being able to do this out of sight of the general public. They promised government that they would generate jobs and in return asked for and got the right to place their open net farms in pristine ocean waters.

Then the problems started; diseases broke out, sea lice multiplied, chemicals had to be developed to treat these conditions, consumers learned about the PCB’s and misc other chemicals in the product, salmon escaped from the cages, wild salmon started disappearing, etc, etc. Every one of these “problems” is costing the industry profits, by increasing costs, reducing selling prices, and lowering sales (or slowing growth of sales).

In order to make sure that profits grow, the industry has done some practical things to try and minimize diseases, lower PCB levels, etc. However for everything they are doing, our environment picks up the tab, by being exposed to more pollution and diseases.

So......  When you can’t fix a problem, the next best thing is to convince the public that there isn’t a problem…. To do this they have developed a fairly successful PR campaign. This includes advertising, publishing news releases, discrediting naysayers, having posters working public internet forums, and even starting lawsuits against individuals daring to contradict their propaganda.

Their PR theme is consistent on 3 main points.
1.   Salmon is good for you. It’s better to eat some PCB’s, rather than not eat any Omega 3’s.
2.   The salmon farming industry is creating jobs and generating export and local sales which benefits the BC economy.
3.   The feedlots are not damaging the environment because there is no concrete scientific proof that they are.

As far as eating salmon because it is good for you…. The fact is, were it not for the supplements that they feed these salmon, there would be minimal Omega 3 benefits from these salmon. My suggestion is, just go out and buy an Omega 3 supplement like fish oil, and bypass the middle man (or in this case the middle farmed salmon). This will ensure you are getting the Omega 3’s without the PCB’s.

The salmon farming industry generates about $500 million per year in sales, which is equivalent to less than 1/2 of 1% of our total economy. It is not worth risking our oceans and wild stock for this small a portion of our province’s economy.

The truth, and the reason salmon farming should be removed from our oceans is that the feedlots are damaging our oceans. Whatever the industry tells you and what government tells you, is what they think you should hear. The Cohen commission has revealed just the tip of the iceberg with respect to how their PR machine works. Industry disease reports are voluntary, so we don’t have any real idea of the diseases they are producing. When dealing with pollution, damage is usually irreversible by the time it’s recognized. Waiting for major viral disease outbreaks and mutations is not good science. Government wants the tax revenue so they don’t even want to test for the diseases, and when confronted by their own scientists, they launched a PR campaign to discredit these experts and cut off their funding.
 
Moving the farms to closed containment (or getting rid of them) is the only way to protect our oceans and our wild salmon.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on January 11, 2012, 12:41:29 PM
Whatever the industry tells you and what government tells you, is what they think you should hear.



Insert anti farmers for industry and government.........same thing... ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 11, 2012, 01:54:50 PM
http://www.fishnewseu.com/latest-news/world/7344-fish-farm-opponent-in-new-battle.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Easywater on January 11, 2012, 02:09:46 PM
Whatever the industry tells you and what government tells you, is what they think you should hear.

Insert anti farmers for industry and government.........same thing... ;D

The problem I have is the question of profit.

Fish farmers are doing what they are doing and saying what they are saying to make money - "fish pimps" as it were.
"Anti-farmers" as you call them are doing it for the good of the environment.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 11, 2012, 04:32:32 PM
Sandman asked why salmon farms should be in BC and absolon answered the question very well.  Really, what government would end an industry that employs thousands of people and is the backbone and tax base of many coastal communities, without a well defined reason?  I could see it perhaps if there was evidence wild fish are impacted by salmon farms but as should be obvious to readers who have been following this debate, clearly that is not the case.
 Just saying consumers don't need to eat salmon won't stop millions wanting it so as the world wide demand for this quality product increases where will it come from?  I can't think of a salmon stock in BC that could withstand increased harvest pressure to meet this demand, and with the continuing increase in human population, threats of climate change, pipelines, oil tankers, Pip's, overfishing, habitat destruction, etc, I can't see that situation changing.  To me that leaves 3 choices:

1)  consumers purchase ranched Alaskan salmon.  This is of course the desired end result of the financial backers of the anti salmon farmers, American politicians, and the activists involved in the “remove salmon farms from BC” campaign.  Those that haven't studied the environmental impacts just surfacing regarding salmon ranching by China, North Korea, Japan and Alaska really should.  Scary stuff biologically, and most definitely affecting wild and hatchery BC salmon.
2) consumers purchase farmed salmon from other countries, Chile for example.  Problem with that is the regulatory and monitoring process in Chile is far removed from that practiced in say, Scotland or Norway.  Not sure if even I would eat a farmed salmon from Chile :D and don't even factor in Sandman's good analogy of the Australian orange!
3) consumers purchase BC farmed salmon. This province has in place the best farm site locations, best available science, best screening, monitoring and regulatory procedures in North America. And despite the naysayers (Chris, alwaysfishin, I can feel your rage at this next comment), a government that is committed to working with the aquaculture community to make BC an economic power house in this burgeoning industry.
IMO, it's a no brainer and I'm all for it.


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 11, 2012, 07:22:25 PM
You may be trying to argue against salmon in ocean pens, but you are using arguments against the social paradigm,

Nonsense.  Your using a  Red Herring.  My arguments against open net pen salmon farming of Atlantic salmon were directly against the introduction of an exotic species into BC waters and the direct discharge of effluent and other environmental outputs from the operation directly into the surrounding environment.  It is the same argument I use against a city like Victoria discharging its sewage untreated into the Georgia Strait - no good can come of it, no matter have efficient and cheap it is.  My arguments against the social paradigm was directed against the arguments FOR open net farming of Atlantic salmon in BC waters (the so-called economic benefits).

and those arguments do not cross because like it or not, we exist and must function within that paradigm.

Not true. However difficult it might be, a paradigm shift is not only possible...it is imperative.

There is a very good reason for having fishfarms operating, one so obvious that I'm surprised I need mention it. That of course would be the economic impact; the direct, indirect and induced activity and jobs that are associated with the industry. We do need the jobs and wages in the hinterlands, the taxes raised contribute to the operation of the province and businesses benefit by supplying and servicing the industry. Direct output exceeds $500 million and the multipliers for indirect and induced output associated raise the total to greater than $800 million in economic impact every year. That number comes close to the combined economic impact of both the commercial and sport sector.

Except that, while the economic outputs (as measured by GDP) of the Sports Sector are slightly less (and therefore less attractive to investors and tax collectors) the Sport Fishing sector employs more people (7,700 vs 2100 for aquculture, in 2005) and generates more revenues ($885 million vs $328 million for aquculture, in 2005) so it would seem to be more valuable as a producer of economic activity and jobs and would therefore, I would think, be more important to the average Joe. Also, because of the difficulty of assessing the economic value of service industries, I can't help but feel that the contributions of the Sports sector to GDP is under estimated, especially with its close ties to tourism (what is the fisherman's wife doing while he is out fishing all day?).  If that is the case, I would think that an activity that might jeopardize that (such as a catastrophic decline in wild fish caused by disease spread from open net farms, however unlikely that might be) should be avoided.  More should be done to protect, promote and expand the sport fishing and tourism industries, not promoting and expanding a less valuable industry that has the potential (however remote) to negatively affect the single largest industry (by employment) in the fisheries/aquaculture sector.

Farms have been operating over thirty years in the province and we have not yet seen that "imminent" catastrophe the reactionaries have been claiming is about to strike for 29 years. Farming is not done blindly and without regard to potential risks and impacts. The industry has been under tight regulation and careful scrutiny from regulators, scientists and reactionaries since it's inception. The problems that have been identified have been addressed to mitigate those problems; that process is and always has been ongoing. For all of the caterwauling and keening about the catastrophe that is salmon farming in BC, there is a thirty year history of successful operation and there has yet to be discovered a direct and irrefutable linkage to the decline of wild stocks or environmental disaster.

But we have seen it.  It is evident in the dramatic declines in stocks of wild salmon and steelhead since the 1990s.  What we have not seen is the scientific proof that this dramatic decline in salmon and steelhead stocks was caused by the farms, which you need to see before you are willing to admit that farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental output directly into to the surrounding environments (often the very same environments that millions of young and maturing salmonids swim through to and from their natal streams) is probably not a good idea.

If you would like to see changes, the way to accomplish that is to first educate yourself so that you truly have a grasp of the industry and it's operations, the biology of both fish and environment and the regulatory regime that applies so that you have a real understanding of the risk and the probabilities. The people who are involved with operating and regulating farms have that knowledge and if you want to get through to them to make changes, you need to be operating near their level of understanding and be prepared to engage in a two way discussion where you listen as much or more than you talk.

Really?  You think I need a biology degree to understand that farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the environment is not good science?

Sandman asked why salmon farms should be in BC and absolon answered the question very well.  Really, what government would end an industry that employs thousands of people and is the backbone and tax base of many coastal communities, without a well defined reason?

The problem is that they should never have been allowed in the first place.  Now that there are here, the argument seems to be that we will need to see the collapse of wild fish stocks and the proof that it was caused by the farms before we will stop farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment.

I could see it perhaps if there was evidence wild fish are impacted by salmon farms but as should be obvious to readers who have been following this debate, clearly that is not the case.

I am sorry but I do not think that it is "clearly" not the case.  I think the evidence is there, perhaps not of a "catastrophe" yet, but of certainly of definite impacts from sea lice blooms for example that are having a negative impact of outgoing wild salmon especially small pink and chum salmon, but the evidence, and the people collecting and reporting the evidence, are being discredited so we can say it is not the farms.

Just saying consumers don't need to eat salmon won't stop millions wanting it so as the world wide demand for this quality product increases where will it come from?  I can't think of a salmon stock in BC that could withstand increased harvest pressure to meet this demand.

This is my point.  You are saying that the increased demand for salmon must be met, and that would be true only if it this increased demand was a need.  If we can agree that the increased demand is a want, and not a need, then there is no increased pressure on wild stocks.  If demand goes up and production remains the same, what happens?  Prices rise and...oh look... the commercial fisherman can actually make a living again selling his salmon to the highest bidder.  Salmon farmers want us thinking that eating salmon is necessary, and they are the only ones that can produce enough fish to feed everyone.  I do not accept that gospel.  One ounce of walnuts has as much omega-3 as 5 ounces of salmon and can be produced in environmentally sustainable ways (what environmental outputs do walnut trees discharge in the surrounding environment?).  Sardines and mackerel are better sources of omega-3 as well if you must eat fish to get it.


Oh yeah...and did I mention that open net farms discharge their environmental output directly into the surrounding environment?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 11, 2012, 07:41:07 PM
Thanks Sandman ;)  was going to have salmon for dinner tomorrow - now thinking a bowl of walnuts will really make my wife happy. :D :D
Get over it, people want to eat salmon.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 11, 2012, 08:09:39 PM
...Get over it, people want to eat salmon.

Thanks for clarifying that Dave.  I am glad we can agree on something.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 11, 2012, 08:35:15 PM
Quote
One ounce of walnuts has as much omega-3 as 5 ounces of salmon and can be produced in environmentally sustainable ways

Sadly, a family out there that owns and operates a small walnut farm is losing their shirt for your omega 3 dose.  These are not organic either.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=problems+with+walnuts&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#pq=problems+with+walnuts&hl=en&cp=22&gs_id=1g&xhr=t&q=problems+with+farming+walnuts&pf=p&client=firefox-a&hs=b4r&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&pbx=1&oq=problems+with+farming+walnuts&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=348b0dd0ce6f0c1b&biw=1455&bih=757 (http://www.google.ca/search?q=problems+with+walnuts&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#pq=problems+with+walnuts&hl=en&cp=22&gs_id=1g&xhr=t&q=problems+with+farming+walnuts&pf=p&client=firefox-a&hs=b4r&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&pbx=1&oq=problems+with+farming+walnuts&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=348b0dd0ce6f0c1b&biw=1455&bih=757)



 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 11, 2012, 09:42:35 PM
Sadly, a family out there that owns and operates a small walnut farm is losing their shirt for your omega 3 dose.  

Wow, really grasping at straws.  That document is showing the difficulties that small farms are having competing in the market as their land values rise and eat into their profits.  The larger farms in the study were making money.  But this is EXACTLY the point.  By locating in the ocean where there is no pressure to turn the farmland (like those farms in the Sacremento Valley) into residential land, these open net salmon farmers can produce the salmon more cheaply than can a land based farmer (be it salmon or walnuts).  But if cheap farmed salmon was not available and the wild BC salmon was too expensive for those Californians in need of their Omega-3, then the demand for walnuts (or flax seed oil, or any of the many other sources of Omega-3) might increase and thereby make those small farms more profitable.  Tough luck to that small walnut farm family who is "losing their shirt" because the BC salmon farmers are allowed to operate their farms without worrying about the discharge of their environmental outputs (no riparian set back here to cut into their cultivatable land area) and so produce a cheap and tastier source of Omega-3 and everyone else be damned, so long as they get their profits and Dave's wife gets her farmed Atlantic salmon.

These are not organic either.

No, of course we would all love cheap organic food, but I would still rather have a non-organic farmer spray his pesticides onto his trees, where it is less likely to spread from the farm into the surrounding environment (some leaching into ground water and some carrying on prevailing winds is likely, both of which can be minimized by proper management controls like not spraying when it is windy or if it is going to rain the next day), than a fish farmer tossing antibiotics and pesticides into the ocean unfiltered (uneaten pellets covered in the chemicals fall through the pens and enter directly into the marine environment along with the other waste) where there is no minimizing of the outputs at all.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 11, 2012, 10:03:44 PM
Quote
(uneaten pellets covered in the chemicals fall through the pens and enter directly into the marine environment along with the other waste) where there is no minimizing of the outputs at all.

  Like it has been stated before the farmers do not want to lose any feed to the environment.  Underwater camera's are used to monitor the feeding so minimal feed is wasted.  Feed is salmon farms #1 expense.  Unlike what AF would like you to believe there is far less of those items in the feed when they are being used.

Quote
Wow, really grasping at straws.  That document is showing the difficulties that small farms are having competing in the market as their land values rise and eat into their profits.  The larger farms in the study were making money.  But this is EXACTLY the point.  By locating in the ocean where there is no pressure to turn the farmland (like those farms in the Sacremento Valley) into residential land, these open net salmon farmers can produce the salmon more cheaply than can a land based farmer (be it salmon or walnuts).  But if cheap farmed salmon was not available and the wild BC salmon was too expensive for those Californians in need of their Omega-3, then the demand for walnuts (or flax seed oil, or any of the many other sources of Omega-3) might increase and thereby make those small farms more profitable.  Tough luck to that small walnut farm family who is "losing their shirt" because the BC salmon farmers are allowed to operate their farms without worrying about the discharge of their environmental outputs (no riparian set back here to cut into their cultivatable land area) and so produce a cheap and tastier source of Omega-3 and everyone else be damned, so long as they get their profits and Dave's wife gets her farmed Atlantic salmon.

And this is my point.  Some agricultural businesses ei: salmon farms, are better suited for large corporations to operate.  Like the large walnut farms that are maintaining income.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 11, 2012, 10:44:59 PM
Like it has been stated before the farmers do not want to lose any feed to the environment.  Underwater camera's are used to monitor the feeding so minimal feed is wasted.  Feed is salmon farms #1 expense.

How is a camera going to stop the feed from being lost?  You cannot make a fish eat a pellet that has fallen through the pen by taking a picture of it.  Catching it on camera will not not make the fish more efficient at eating the food that is dropped in the water.  All the camera does is show them how much they are losing so they can adjust how much they feed them (amount distributed - amount wasted = amount consumed, so if they figure 100,000 salmon need 1000 kg of feed and 5% is falling through, then they need to drop in 1053 kg.), and so they can accurately document the costs of the feed and the amount consumed (amount consumed + amount wasted = cost of feed). Are they collecting this wasted food and redistributing it? No.  It is being distributed directly into the surrounding ecosystem where it is being consumed by other organisms.

Unlike what AF would like you to believe there is far less of those items in the feed when they are being used.

What about the other chemicals (antibacterials, disinfectants, pesticides, etc) that, when applied in the water, can disperse and affect non-target species?

And this is my point.  Some agricultural businesses ei: salmon farms, are better suited for large corporations to operate.  Like the large walnut farms that are maintaining income.

I really does not matter to me how big the company is, as long as they are not farming exotic species in open net pens in BC waters where the environmental outputs are discharged directly into the environment.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 11, 2012, 11:10:52 PM
I believe I may have solved the Omega 3 supply problem.  :o

The salmon feedlots must feed the salmon some form of carotenoids in order to make sure they have Omega 3 levels near those in wild salmon, but more importantly to ensure that the flesh color looks like salmon should. The most commonly used carotenoid is astaxanthin which is produced either synthetically from oil, or produced naturally from microalgae or krill. Apparently this compound makes up as much as 30% of the cost of the salmon feed.  ???  (Bet you didn't know that 30% of the cost of that farmed salmon fillet is dye.)

Rather than buying walnuts or fish oil.....   buy astaxanthin capsules! http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_nkw=astaxanthin&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&clk_rvr_id=306237062720&rawquery=astaxanthin&MT_ID=368&crlp=451103750_53&tt_encode=raw&keyword=astaxanthin&geo_id=11 (http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_nkw=astaxanthin&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&clk_rvr_id=306237062720&rawquery=astaxanthin&MT_ID=368&crlp=451103750_53&tt_encode=raw&keyword=astaxanthin&geo_id=11)

Now can we get rid of the open net farms??
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 11, 2012, 11:11:50 PM
I am still waiting to hear "good" arguments why open net Atlantic salmon farms should be allowed in BC.  The economic benefits to individual British Columbians do not appear to be as good as Sport Fishing which employs 3 times as many people and generated many more spin off (indirect) benefits, and yet open net aquaculture has the potential to negatively effect this important industry by contributing, however, small, to the decline of wild salmon. Since most factors affecting salmon numbers do not act alone, but rather in concert, which makes determining the relative contribution of each factor extremely difficult, the insistence from salmon farm supporters that anti-farm activist show conclusive evidence that farms are responsible for declining wild salmon is as irresponsible as anti-farm activists exaggerating claims or jumping to conclusions.  If one industry has the potential to negatively effect such a large employer, it should be curtailed, not expanded.  So why is it being expanded? Salmon farming is a growth industry.  Unlike the Sport Fishing industry, there is the potential for individual investors to get very rich by growing this industry in BC.  You simply cannot do that with Sport fishing, which tend to be comprised of many small operators.  There simply is not same kind of opportunities for investors to get rich by investing in a new lodge or guiding company, even though it would generate as many or more jobs (both direct and indirect).  Open net salmon farms make rich people richer.  That is the only reason they are here.  Once again economic imperatives override environmental considerations.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 11, 2012, 11:18:43 PM


Quote
What about the other chemicals (antibacterials, disinfectants

You think commercial fishers do not use this? 

Sounds like you fed fish at one time or another.  The cameras are not at the bottom of the pen they are mid water to ensure that feed is not wasted and released to the bottom where I do not hang out to much but some are seem really concerned about it.

Its a farm and the same things are happening all along the Fraser.  Lets clear it off!  I surprised there are any fish with what goes on there in agriculture.

By the way, I searched PCB's in walnuts and could not find anything but in that search almost ever link mentioned pcb in farmed and wild salmon.  Watch out fish people.  The walnut farmers are de-marketing all of us.            NUTS :'(

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 11, 2012, 11:20:56 PM
Quote
I am still waiting to hear "good" arguments why open net Atlantic salmon farms should be allowed in BC.

So far so good I would say.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 11, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
You think commercial fishers do not use this?  . . . Its a farm and the same things are happening all along the Fraser.  Lets clear it off!  I surprised there are any fish with what goes on there in agriculture.

Is this part of that "social paradigm" I am supposed to accept, where two wrongs make it right?

As I just finished posting, the decline of salmon is undoubtedly a combination of a variety of effects, but just as I do not accept clear-cutting logging as an acceptable practice around salmon streams, just as I support the increase of the riparian set backs (with compensation) to try to minimize the effects of agriculture on salmon and other fish species, and just as I do not accept Victoria (or other industries) dumping their effluent directly into the ocean or streams, I cannot accept the negative effects of open net aquaculture on the environment.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 12, 2012, 12:06:30 AM
Nonsense.  Your using a  Red Herring.  My arguments against open net pen salmon farming of Atlantic salmon were directly against the introduction of an exotic species into BC waters and the direct discharge of effluent and other environmental outputs from the operation directly into the surrounding environment.  It is the same argument I use against a city like Victoria discharging its sewage untreated into the Georgia Strait - no good can come of it, no matter have efficient and cheap it is.  My arguments against the social paradigm was directed against the arguments FOR open net farming of Atlantic salmon in BC waters (the so-called economic benefits).

No, your argument was against feedlot rearing in general and a food system that will fly an orange halfway round the world and on those points I agree. However, such is the nature of the capitalist "free market" system and like it or not, that system exists and it does raise livestock on feedlots and that isn't going to change. We aren't going to become a society of vegetarians or eaters of locally grown tilapia; we (and I mean the generic we) are going to remain a society of consumers who demand that our wants be fulfilled. That system also requires that we have jobs and those jobs require producing salable products that satisfy those consumer wants in order that the wages and profits required to exist in that system can be earned.

Quote
Not true. However difficult it might be, a paradigm shift is not only possible...it is imperative.

Don't hold your breath. The world is currently being ripped apart by the efforts to expand the existing "free market" system that is the determinant of our social paradigm. Governments around the world are shifting rightward towards more complete adoption of it's principles; consumers everywhere trip over themselves to support the system that allows them access to unnecessary goods they believe "enhance" their lives. We are stuck with this system until it collapses of it's own weight and in order to be successful in the market, those goods that sell must be produced. That you don't like seapen salmon rearing is a given, but your arguments against it based on the social paradigm are entirely irrelevant.

Quote
Except that, while the economic outputs (as measured by GDP) of the Sports Sector are slightly less (and therefore less attractive to investors and tax collectors) the Sport Fishing sector employs more people (7,700 vs 2100 for aquculture, in 2005) and generates more revenues ($885 million vs $328 million for aquculture, in 2005) so it would seem to be more valuable as a producer of economic activity and jobs and would therefore, I would think, be more important to the average Joe. Also, because of the difficulty of assessing the economic value of service industries, I can't help but feel that the contributions of the Sports sector to GDP is under estimated, especially with its close ties to tourism (what is the fisherman's wife doing while he is out fishing all day?).  If that is the case, I would think that an activity that might jeopardize that (such as a catastrophic decline in wild fish caused by disease spread from open net farms, however unlikely that might be) should be avoided.  More should be done to protect, promote and expand the sport fishing and tourism industries, not promoting and expanding a less valuable industry that has the potential (however remote) to negatively affect the single largest industry (by employment) in the fisheries/aquaculture sector.

Get your numbers right. As I suggested in my previous post, the cumulative economic output of direct, indirect and induced benefits from salmon farming, a sum of $699 million, is approaching the cumulative total from those same sources for the combined output of the commercial salmon harvest, $366 million, and the sport salmon fishing sector, $419 million.

Full Time Equivalent cumulative employment for salmon farming is 2,900, the commercial salmon sector is 2,300 jobs and the sport salmon sector is 3400. All numbers for 2005; sourced from tables on page 2 of the last link in the list I posted previously. While employment in the sport salmon sector is roughly 15% greater, it is also seasonal rather than year round as in the salmon farming sector.

Economic output including multiplier effects for salmon farming is roughly 65% higher than for sport salmon. Regardless of your personal take on the accuracy of the measurement, the numbers are what they are.

Quote
But we have seen it.  It is evident in the dramatic declines in stocks of wild salmon and steelhead since the 1990s.  What we have not seen is the scientific proof that this dramatic decline in salmon and steelhead stocks was caused by the farms, which you need to see before you are willing to admit that farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental output directly into to the surrounding environments (often the very same environments that millions of young and maturing salmonids swim through to and from their natal streams) is probably not a good idea.

Industrial logging has had an enormous effect on fish stocks over the second half of the 1900s. It was a primary industrial driver for the province and it operated with a slash and burn mentality that shaved hillsides and watersheds and changed the nature of the rivers that drained them. The ability of the watershed to retain water and release it slowly to feed the streams was destroyed and along with it the habitat that allowed the salmon grounds to breed and the fry grounds to rear and it wasn't until 1993 and the Clayoquot protest that logging companies began to change their practices to reduce the destruction left in their wake. Many watersheds have still not recovered and many salmon runs were all but wiped out.

BC population has doubled since 1971 and that increased population has swallowed great tracts of land for roads, cities and housing, and resulted in the growth of business and industry to service and employ it. That population creates a waste stream composed of garbage, runoff and the effluent of industry that escapes to and pollutes streams and groundwater and uses land in such a way as to render innumerable small creeks and rivers unusable by the fish that had spawned there for generations.

Wild salmon stocks have always been under growing pressure by the commercial fleet since the sixties and by the late eighties, the fleet had reached a new apex in catching power. The fleet was now able to capture in hours what used to take months. The pressure was so intense that the government went into the business of making fish in hatcheries to supply the fleet and we underwent an extended period of genetic modification as hatchery selection changed the essential genetic nature of many runs by selecting for hatchery survival rather than wild survival. The government undertook a number of fleet reduction programs to reduce fleet catching power but every one resulted in a further technological surge that resulted in even greater catching power than had previously existed. Catching power and catches finally began to decline when the fleet ran out of fish. They began to increase once again as the fleet switched more of it's focus to the lowly pinks and chum and began to take steadily increasing catches of those species. http://www.fish.bc.ca/files/EvolutionCommercialFisheries-BC_2004_0_Complete.pdf (http://www.fish.bc.ca/files/EvolutionCommercialFisheries-BC_2004_0_Complete.pdf)

Sport salmon catches were thought to be minor and were therefore poorly studied until the early eighties when DFO realized that the sports sector were taking over 30% of the coho and chinook catch coastwide and an even higher proportion in Georgia Strait. This set off a rush of statistics collection and caused conflicts over share allocation and the implementation of reduced limits over the next two decades to attempt to control and limit the harvest. As with the commercial fleet, the sport sector also set it's sights on the previously disdained pinks and chum as numbers of the high value species decreased. http://www.fish.bc.ca/files/R-39_EvolutionSalmonFisheries.pdf (http://www.fish.bc.ca/files/R-39_EvolutionSalmonFisheries.pdf)

There are many potential causes for the declines in salmon stocks including those I've summarized and many more possibilities including climate change, North Pacific salmon ranching and possibly even a new endemic virus that the newly adopted darling of the reactionary campaign claims to have found.  To ignore any or all of them and suggest that the blame must lie with salmon farms is to ignore the realities of the situation. It betrays a lack of understanding of the biological dynamic of salmon and a lack of objectivity in analyzing the problem. It is for that reason that i suggested you educate yourself in the biology of both the fish and the environment.


cont'd
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 12, 2012, 12:06:40 AM
Quote
Really?  You think I need a biology degree to understand that farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the environment is not good science?

You don't need a degree in biology but you need some knowledge, some common sense, some objectivity and some willingness to listen and consider what you hear.

There are very good reasons why Atlantic Salmon were selected as the primary species for culture. The primary one is that they are not Pacific Salmon, and because of that, have some major differences in disease susceptibility. The benefit that offers is that many pathogens that may cause outbreaks in farms are pathogens that are not troublesome to Pacifics and thus will have minimal effect on the stocks. It also means that they cannot successfully breed with Pacifics. That allows BC to evade the two factors that have caused the greatest damage to wild salmon stocks in Norway, Scotland and even Eastern Canada where the cultured species is also the native species. The import protocols have prevented the importation of any non-native pathogens and the imported Atlantics have not established any successful breeding populations on this coast even though there have been escapes just as they couldn't after all the attempted introductions up to a century ago. An understanding of biology and farm/environment interaction would have helped you to see that.

There are environmental outputs from everything including yourself. That fact in itself is meaningless. It is the volume and nature of those discharges that need to be examined to evaluate their harm or harmlessness. What you call "environmental outputs" is primarily feces, a biodegradable product that actually forms food for other species. It is well dispersed by the currents and tides so that concentration remains very low and disappears when sites are fallowed. There will also be a component of uneaten feed, but it will be minimal because of it's cost to the farms and the waste minimizing feeding technology in use and it will degrade to elemental materials as well. There will be a very small chemical component from farm use chemicals; the concentration will be very low because of dilution and the need to keep the farm environment habitable by the fish. There will on occasion also be a very small medication component. It will consist of only that small portion of food not eaten.; medication is delivered to fish in feed and when eaten, is metabolized by the fish in order that it may enter the blood stream and serve it's function. Since the amount of medication fed to fish is very small, the residuals in the environment will be minuscule. The fact of those discharges to the environment has nothing to do with good science. Evaluating the effect of those discharges is where science comes in, and science does indeed come in, banning those substances that are harmful and allowing those that aren't.

Quote
The problem is that they should never have been allowed in the first place.  Now that there are here, the argument seems to be that we will need to see the collapse of wild fish stocks and the proof that it was caused by the farms before we will stop farming exotic species in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment.

The argument is that there must be some direct evidence that farms are causing the declines in the wild stock. Any special interest group can go around demanding whatever changes they see fit and unless there is some consistent criteria applied to evaluating those demands, the world will devolve to anarchy and chaos. Fortunately, there is a consistent criteria applied and that is the requirement to substantiate that the changes are
required and will accomplish the stated goals. The only burden placed on those that would eliminate fish farming is that they substantiate the need to do that with facts.

If the reactionaries were able to provide that inarguable proof, it would have been done. They've been trying to do it for thirty years and have been unable to find the linkage. Neither has anyone else, and science has been looking. As a result, the campaign has become focused on revoking the industry's social license through an extended campaign of selective presentations of fact in hopes of swaying public opinion just as you have done in your post. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it doesn't magically become true.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 12, 2012, 12:27:57 AM
How is a camera going to stop the feed from being lost?  You cannot make a fish eat a pellet that has fallen through the pen by taking a picture of it.  Catching it on camera will not not make the fish more efficient at eating the food that is dropped in the water.  All the camera does is show them how much they are losing so they can adjust how much they feed them (amount distributed - amount wasted = amount consumed, so if they figure 100,000 salmon need 1000 kg of feed and 5% is falling through, then they need to drop in 1053 kg.), and so they can accurately document the costs of the feed and the amount consumed (amount consumed + amount wasted = cost of feed). Are they collecting this wasted food and redistributing it? No.  It is being distributed directly into the surrounding ecosystem where it is being consumed by other organisms.


The cameras do not record waste. They observe fish behavior; so long as the fish are eating, feed is supplied. Thousands of fish in a pen are very efficient eaters, not much gets by when feeding is controlled. No farm can afford to feed 5% extra. Waste is minimal, biodegradable and becomes an input to the food web.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 12, 2012, 12:39:37 AM
I am still waiting to hear "good" arguments why open net Atlantic salmon farms should be allowed in BC.

I'm still waiting to hear good reasons why they should not.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 12, 2012, 06:48:58 AM
http://www.northislandgazette.com/news/137048988.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on January 12, 2012, 08:00:16 AM
Good article Chris. It kind of points out that there are people who want to do something positive with salmon farming. It's time to get rid of those "dirty fish" loaded with pesticides and chemicals. One only has to get information from EWOS on what they purchase to realize that this company purchases those chemicals and puts it in there feed. I knew someone who use to do the accounting there and they confirmed that.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 12, 2012, 04:02:01 PM
http://www.canada.com/Ahousaht+confident+virus+fears+unfounded/5983896/story.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 12, 2012, 04:57:03 PM
"The Canadian Food Inspection Agency and Fisheries and Oceans Canada announced December 2 that after an extensive investigation, they found no evidence that ISA was in B.C. farmed or wild salmon. We are confident their announcement is based on good science and a thorough investigation."

Apparently someone out there trusts DFO and CFIA.  :D  I wonder how much Mainstream paid them to say that?  ???

http://mainstreamcanada.com/mainstream-canada-and-ahousaht-first-nation-renew-protocol-agreement-0 (http://mainstreamcanada.com/mainstream-canada-and-ahousaht-first-nation-renew-protocol-agreement-0)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 12, 2012, 06:10:58 PM
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=93669
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 12, 2012, 06:14:54 PM
No, your argument was against feedlot rearing in general and a food system that will fly an orange halfway round the world and on those points I agree.
No, again, that part of my argument was against the argument that these open net salmon farms are necessary to meet the demands for salmon.  Not against the farms themselves, which I explained I am against for the fact that they are farming an exotic species in an open net pens that discharges its environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment.

Get your numbers right. As I suggested in my previous post, the cumulative economic output of direct, indirect and induced benefits from salmon farming, a sum of $699 million, is approaching the cumulative total from those same sources for the combined output of the commercial salmon harvest, $366 million, and the sport salmon fishing sector, $419 million.

Full Time Equivalent cumulative employment for salmon farming is 2,900, the commercial salmon sector is 2,300 jobs and the sport salmon sector is 3400. All numbers for 2005; sourced from tables on page 2 of the last link in the list I posted previously. While employment in the sport salmon sector is roughly 15% greater, it is also seasonal rather than year round as in the salmon farming sector.

Economic output including multiplier effects for salmon farming is roughly 65% higher than for sport salmon. Regardless of your personal take on the accuracy of the measurement, the numbers are what they are.


The numbers I gave came from the link you provided... so right back at you.


There are many potential causes for the declines in salmon stocks including those I've summarized and many more possibilities including climate change, North Pacific salmon ranching and possibly even a new endemic virus that the newly adopted darling of the reactionary campaign claims to have found. 

Exactly.  We have been struggling for decades with these other potential causes, and then in comes these salmon farms with their exotic species being raised in HUGE concentrations (and getting larger all the time) in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment (the same environment that these wild fish, already weakened by these other impacts we have both mentioned) and we are supposed to turn a blind eye to any potential harm they might be doing and accept that no harm will come of it.

To ignore any or all of them and suggest that the blame must lie with salmon farms is to ignore the realities of the situation. It betrays a lack of understanding of the biological dynamic of salmon and a lack of objectivity in analyzing the problem. It is for that reason that i suggested you educate yourself in the biology of both the fish and the environment.

 Who said anything about ignoring any or all of the other possible causes and placing the blame solely on salmon farms (another Red Herring)?  Why does it have to be all the salmon farms fault before we can ask them to stop causing the harm they are causing, however small it might be?  So since we accept that the decline in wild fish is caused by more than one activity, we must now accept that they are doomed because we cannot blame any one activity for causing all the harm? That makes a lot of sense.  We fought the forest companies for decades to stop clear cutting right to the banks of salmon streams.  I guess we need to start allowing them to do that again since the salmon declines cannot be blamed solely on them.

Waste ... becomes an input to the food web.

Exactly, it is also frequently covered in antibiotics and pesticides, so any amount is going to impact that food web as the non target species consume it

There are very good reasons why Atlantic Salmon were selected as the primary species for culture. The primary one is that they are not Pacific Salmon, and because of that, have some major differences in disease susceptibility. The benefit that offers is that many pathogens that may cause outbreaks in farms are pathogens that are not troublesome to Pacifics and thus will have minimal effect on the stocks. It also means that they cannot successfully breed with Pacifics. That allows BC to evade the two factors that have caused the greatest damage to wild salmon stocks in Norway, Scotland and even Eastern Canada where the cultured species is also the native species. The import protocols have prevented the importation of any non-native pathogens and the imported Atlantics have not established any successful breeding populations on this coast even though there have been escapes just as they couldn't after all the attempted introductions up to a century ago. An understanding of biology and farm/environment interaction would have helped you to see that.

Just because Atlantics have not been successful yet, it does not mean they will not be successful in the future. A simple rudimentary understanding of biology could have helped you see that.  Also, while second generation wild adults have never been captured yet, there have been documented catches of second generation young, so they are able to breed in BC.  Furthermore, while a successful population has not been established yet, the repeated escape, year after year, of even small numbers of fish (this is documented and the numbers will only grow as the industry expands production faster than it improves the security of the pens) has the same impact as the establishment of a stable population would. 

There are environmental outputs from everything including yourself. That fact in itself is meaningless. It is the volume and nature of those discharges that need to be examined to evaluate their harm or harmlessness. What you call "environmental outputs" is primarily feces, a biodegradable product that actually forms food for other species. It is well dispersed by the currents and tides so that concentration remains very low...

Wow, I think that is exactly the argument Victoria uses to justify the dumping of raw sewage into Georgia Strait.  No one really believes that do they?  Do you really expect me to believe the feces of a farmed fish, a fish penned with thousands of other fish in close quarters, and that receive more than "a very small medication[/chemical] component" in its feed, is harmless to the organisms that consume it?  Where is the scientific proof that this is true? I am afraid I need inarguable proof please.

There will be a very small chemical component from farm use chemicals; the concentration will be very low because of dilution and the need to keep the farm environment habitable by the fish. There will on occasion also be a very small medication component. It will consist of only that small portion of food not eaten.; medication is delivered to fish in feed and when eaten, is metabolized by the fish in order that it may enter the blood stream and serve it's function. Since the amount of medication fed to fish is very small, the residuals in the environment will be minuscule.

Where is the documented proof that this is true?  Where are the scientific studies that showed that the output of these farms is harmless?  Why were the farmers not required to provide the "inarguable proof" that no harm will come from their existence before they were given license to practice.  Why is the burden of proof on those that suspect that the residuals in the environment are not "miniscule" and that the impacts will not be insignificant?  It is very hard to catch a dead salmon that has been killed by a lice bloom on a farm (we tend to only catch the ones that survived), this is why the scientists have a hard time assessing the impact the farms are having.  It is easier to catch the adults returning, but these are obviously the stronger fish that managed to survive, so they are not as useful to the studies are they?


I'm still waiting to hear good reasons why they should not.

Because they are farming an exotic species in open net pens that release their harmful environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment (something most reasonable people now accept is not a good idea, except of course, for those that stand to save money by dumping their waste).  The fact that you can make a lot of money doing this is the ONLY reason I have heard so far for why we should have them.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 12, 2012, 06:26:15 PM
Sandman, excellent post, one of the best of the 41 pages on this topic. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 12, 2012, 06:35:19 PM
Sandman, excellent post, one of the best of the 41 pages on this topic. ;D ;D ;D

Ditto!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 12, 2012, 07:09:01 PM
Quote
Just because Atlantics have not been successful yet, it does not mean they will not be successful in the future. A simple rudimentary understanding of biology could have helped you see that.

I am no biologist so I guess I qualify to comment.  Over all my years of fishing and reading fishing mags and following fishing I have yet to see a country where wild atlantic salmon populations are doing well, historically.  I have read about extensive efforts to enhance them with little success.  All the while pacific pinks, coho, springs, steelhead and others, have been transplanted successfully in many locations including the great lakes (fresh water only) and recently in New Zealand.  With this in mind I cant help but to think it is unlikely that atlatics could become independent in pacific waters especially when pacifics show an ability to thrive.

Surely someone here could explain why antlatics struggle so much globally.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 12, 2012, 08:07:54 PM
I am no biologist so I guess I qualify to comment.  Over all my years of fishing and reading fishing mags and following fishing I have yet to see a country where wild atlantic salmon populations are doing well, historically.  I have read about extensive efforts to enhance them with little success.  All the while pacific pinks, coho, springs, steelhead and others, have been transplanted successfully in many locations including the great lakes (fresh water only) and recently in New Zealand.  With this in mind I cant help but to think it is unlikely that atlatics could become independent in pacific waters especially when pacifics show an ability to thrive.

Surely someone here could explain why antlatics struggle so much globally.

I do not know why Atlantics have struggled so much recently, especially with regards to human attempts at colonization, but given that most rivers supporting Atlantics today were colonized after the last Ice Age, is is obvious that their colonizing ability, at least historically, was once substantial.  There is no reason to assume they could not do so again.  While it is clear that Atlantics are not as able as their Pacific cousins to establish themselves in self-sustaining populations, as I have stated already stated, the effects of repeated year-after-year escapes are the same.  Say 100,000 adult Atlantics escape from pens in 2008 (perhaps one or two large scale escape events coupled with many numerous smaller "leaks" from multiple sites) and only a fraction of them are able to successfully spawn and few of these produce young Atlantic smolts (this has been documented already in BC),  even though none of their offspring survive to return to the rivers in subsequent years to reproduce on their own, if another 100,000 (give or take 50,000) escape the next year, and the next, and the next... then the effects are the same.  They do not need to form self sustaining populations to have a negative effect by competing with wild fish for food, spawning habitat, etc.  They do not need to be self sustaining as it is clear the farms, and therefore the source of the escapes, are not going anywhere as long as economic imperatives over ride environmental considerations.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 12, 2012, 09:35:40 PM
BC farm escapes are on the decline and will likely continue to drop. 

These few  Atlantic events in rivers are very minimal.  If there was a small return somewhere.  Then what.  We already know that they are pour competitors on the river. They struggle globally so who thinks they would really make it. 

Looks to me that is one of the arguments against salmon farms the get bundled in with the other thousand cuts that naysayer keep repeating.  over and over and over again.  I just do not think it will happen.

But I know your opinion.  Maybe when the salmon farms are finally closed you can chose where to make the cuts to our system.  A couple of schools, a hospital, some old folks homes.  Maybe close some sports programs.  Gona be some 500 milion a year to get rid of.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 13, 2012, 12:07:14 AM


The numbers I gave came from the link you provided... so right back at you.

Then perhaps we need some specific paper and page references that show where you drew your numbers from to confirm that.

Quote
Exactly.  We have been struggling for decades with these other potential causes, and then in comes these salmon farms with their exotic species being raised in HUGE concentrations (and getting larger all the time) in open net pens that discharge their environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment (the same environment that these wild fish, already weakened by these other impacts we have both mentioned) and we are supposed to turn a blind eye to any potential harm they might be doing and accept that no harm will come of it.

No one is suggesting turning a blind eye to any"potential harm they may be doing" and no one is turning a blind eye. The industry practices are constantly monitored and constantly refined to avoid doing "potential harm". The experience with sea lice makes that perfectly clear. A potential problem was identified, a solution developed and implemented and outcomes were monitored to ensure that the solution had the desired effect. The dire warnings about the imminent extinction of the pinks in the Broughton proved to be nothing more than a small boy crying "wolf".

Quote
Who said anything about ignoring any or all of the other possible causes and placing the blame solely on salmon farms (another Red Herring)?  Why does it have to be all the salmon farms fault before we can ask them to stop causing the harm they are causing, however small it might be?  So since we accept that the decline in wild fish is caused by more than one activity, we must now accept that they are doomed because we cannot blame any one activity for causing all the harm? That makes a lot of sense.  We fought the forest companies for decades to stop clear cutting right to the banks of salmon streams.  I guess we need to start allowing them to do that again since the salmon declines cannot be blamed solely on them.


I'm sure there is a kernel of wisdom in there somewhere, but on the face of it, it seems rather nonsensical. Farms make all efforts to prevent doing any harm, "however small it may be". If someone could just demonstrate what greater harm they are doing, there is no question that they will do what is required to stop that harm. If we really wanted to knock off an industry, the commercial fishery would be the wisest choice since they contribute the least economic value and remove the largest share of wild stocks, a fact that is incontestable. Leaving them to operate and knocking off the fish farming industry in the face of no evidence of fault for the decline of the wild stocks just isn't logical.

Quote
Exactly, it is also frequently covered in antibiotics and pesticides, so any amount is going to impact that food web as the non target species consume it

As has been pointed out to you, drug and chemical treatments occur very infrequently and involve very small quantities. Because of modern feeding technology, another innovation by the industry to reduce it's environmental effect, very little feed escapes the pen. What does escape can be consumed, but is more likely to settle into bottom sediment where it will decompose. The total affected area under pens amounts to several hundred acres on a coastline that consists of hundreds of thousands acres or more. The impact is extremely small.

Quote
Just because Atlantics have not been successful yet, it does not mean they will not be successful in the future. A simple rudimentary understanding of biology could have helped you see that.  Also, while second generation wild adults have never been captured yet, there have been documented catches of second generation young, so they are able to breed in BC.  Furthermore, while a successful population has not been established yet, the repeated escape, year after year, of even small numbers of fish (this is documented and the numbers will only grow as the industry expands production faster than it improves the security of the pens) has the same impact as the establishment of a stable population would.

Document those catches of second generation young. I know you and your compatriot reactionaries don't do proof, but I'd like to see some. The important point about your "exotic species" is that it does not breed with the native wild stocks and it doesn't spread disease to them. That is a primary reason it was selected. Another reason is that the cultured strains have been domesticated where Pacifics have not been. Because of that, they are more like docile cattle suited to feedlot life. They are genetically not aggressive competitors that do well in the wild. This isn't the same as introducing grass carp to Louisiana or eels to the Great Lakes. The introduction was reasoned and well managed, the introduced stock is contained and controlled.



Quote
Wow, I think that is exactly the argument Victoria uses to justify the dumping of raw sewage into Georgia Strait.  No one really believes that do they?  Do you really expect me to believe the feces of a farmed fish, a fish penned with thousands of other fish in close quarters, and that receive more than "a very small medication[/chemical] component" in its feed, is harmless to the organisms that consume it?  Where is the scientific proof that this is true? I am afraid I need inarguable proof please.

Victoria dumped it's sewage and it was essentially harmless because of the principle of dilution. The greenies got up in arms because it violates environmental principles not to be seen to treat it so it didn't matter if Victoria's sewage discharge actually caused no harm, it became a bone in their craw. The conjured images of turds bobbing around the kelp beds made it great subject for the media, guaranteed to raise hackles and arouse public ire. Never mind that it actually doing no harm at the levels of discharge that were done.

I'll tell you what; it's time to broaden your horizons a bit. I'll give you a little lesson on confirming facts for yourself. Go to Google and type in the search box "metabolization of antibiotics" and start reading. Follow the useful links and start compiling the information you need to consider in order to answer your question. The world doesn't owe you the answers; you've got the responsibility for the matter.

cont'd
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 13, 2012, 12:08:42 AM
Quote
Where is the documented proof that this is true?  Where are the scientific studies that showed that the output of these farms is harmless?  Why were the farmers not required to provide the "inarguable proof" that no harm will come from their existence before they were given license to practice.  Why is the burden of proof on those that suspect that the residuals in the environment are not "miniscule" and that the impacts will not be insignificant?  It is very hard to catch a dead salmon that has been killed by a lice bloom on a farm (we tend to only catch the ones that survived), this is why the scientists have a hard time assessing the impact the farms are having.  It is easier to catch the adults returning, but these are obviously the stronger fish that managed to survive, so they are not as useful to the studies are they?

The first study I ran across on the subject was written by a Dr . Donald Weston of WSU in 1985 and is titled "The Environmental Effects of Floating Mariculture in Puget Sound". It is still available and there have been many studies since then. Once again, the world doesn't owe you the answers; you've got the responsibility for the matter and now you've got the tools too. Good hunting!


Quote
Because they are farming an exotic species in open net pens that release their harmful environmental outputs directly into the surrounding environment (something most reasonable people now accept is not a good idea, except of course, for those that stand to save money by dumping their waste).  The fact that you can make a lot of money doing this is the ONLY reason I have heard so far for why we should have them.

We've covered the largely biodegradable constituents of those outputs and the minuscule amount of unmetabolized drug and chemical residue that actually finds it's way into the environment, the extremely small exposure of coastal waters to them and the very minor risk that they represent. I think reasonable people would say that although there are some outputs, they don't appear to be causing consequential damage. I think they would also say that although the Atlantics are an imported species, there were good reasons for selecting them and there haven't been any negative effects that have shown after the 25 years they have been here in the province. I think reasonable people would appreciate the magnitude of the economic benefits the industry provides the province and I think reasonable people would realize that under the current circumstances, it would be a far wiser choice to shut down commercial fishing than the fish farm business. The impact on the stocks of wild harvest is undeniable; removing it would have an immediate and 100% certain beneficial effect on salmon numbers.

We have good reasons for the presence of the industry. The only reasons I have seen presented here against it are of "the sky is falling" variety.

All of your arguments against farmed Atlantics are predicated on "maybe" and "might do" and "could cause" and "potential effect". You're proposing to eliminate an economic driver that contributes some $700 million annually in total economic output on the basis of some fears that you have that are based on very little understanding and a great deal of misinformation you have derived from media reporting of an organized campaign to impede the salmon farming industry. That you claim that a deeper understanding of both the biology underlying the issue and the nature and practices of farm operations is not required to know that farms are bad is clear statement that you are not looking for any further information. You've obviously arrived at your answer already. That answer isn't based on the 30 year successful history of the industry or indeed on any real event past or present. It is based on what someone has told you might happen.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 13, 2012, 08:19:46 AM
Well, I was going to give absolon a pat on the back for another great post but I won't as that would be following the lead of Chris and af :D
Seems the only posters to this thread have determined their positions ... looking forward to the next round of bs by Alex to keep this discussion going ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 13, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Well, I was going to give absolon a pat on the back for another great post but I won't as that would be following the lead of Chris and af :D
Seems the only posters to this thread have determined their positions ... looking forward to the next round of bs by Alex to keep this discussion going ;)
You just did. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 13, 2012, 07:28:24 PM
http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=13664
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 13, 2012, 10:00:00 PM
So tell me again....Who is it that says that farms aren't trying to improve their practices?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 13, 2012, 11:38:36 PM
Well, I was going to give absolon a pat on the back for another great post but I won't ...

Then I will Dave, because they are always great food for thought...but that doesn't mean I need to agree with him.

First:
Then perhaps we need some specific paper and page references that show where you drew your numbers from to confirm that

Then:
The world doesn't owe you the answers; you've got the responsibility for the matter.

Hypocritical don't you think? Anyway, those numbers were from the first document you provided, I do not remember what page, but you then I had assumed that you had read it.  

I began by stating specifically that I wanted to hear your own ideas and that I would be presenting my own, not quoting others.  We have seen all kinds of studies quoted already and we have seen both sides pick each other's so called experts apart and try to discredit the science behind them.  I just wanted to hear your own ideas. But we can go back to discrediting the scientists again.

No one is suggesting turning a blind eye to any"potential harm they may be doing" and no one is turning a blind eye. The industry practices are constantly monitored and constantly refined to avoid doing "potential harm". The experience with sea lice makes that perfectly clear. A potential problem was identified, a solution developed and implemented and outcomes were monitored to ensure that the solution had the desired effect. The dire warnings about the imminent extinction of the pinks in the Broughton proved to be nothing more than a small boy crying "wolf".

Who identified out the "potential problem" with sea lice affecting the pinks in Broughton?  Are you suggesting that the fish farms would have developed their "solutions" had this problem not been identified by people "outside" the fish farms.  ::) It is only because of the critics, that these farms are located in the sites they are now located (better flushing) and that they are doing anything at all to mitigate their impacts on the environment.  Everything they are forced to do to appease the critics eats into their profits.  They wouldn't be doing it on their own (unless the impact was affecting their own production of course).

If someone could just demonstrate what greater harm they are doing, there is no question that they will do what is required to stop that harm.

Yeah, I think someone did. That was why they developed their "solutions" to those harms.  But they should be responsible for "demonstrating that harm" and assessing their impact and developing the solutions.  Private citizens should not have to foot the bill to point out these harms being perpetrated by an industry that is here supposedly for our own good.  Unfortunately we cannot trust a company to properly monitor itself, and clearly we cannot trust the government to do so either.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 13, 2012, 11:38:57 PM
As has been pointed out to you, drug and chemical treatments occur very infrequently and involve very small quantities.

Yet, still you provide no evidence of this.   However, a study done in 1997 of antibacterial usage found use varied considerably among farms with some farms using as much as 450kg active ingredient per year with "moderate" usage around 70 - 170kg annual usage (Herwig et al 1997), and these farms there it was found that 20% of the bacteria in the sediments near the farm were anti-bacterial resistant.

Because of modern feeding technology, another innovation by the industry to reduce it's environmental effect, very little feed escapes the pen. What does escape can be consumed, but is more likely to settle into bottom sediment where it will decompose. The total affected area under pens amounts to several hundred acres on a coastline that consists of hundreds of thousands acres or more. The impact is extremely small.

Yet  still you provide no evidence of this.  In the document you provide later as evidence that the environmental effects are minimal (Dr. Weston's 1985 paper)  doesn't even deal with fin fish waste as it is on floating shellfish farms (I am no biologist, but I suspect shellfish produce less waste than fin fish).   Now Weston's 1990 study may be more useful as he does document the effects of fin fish farms in Puget Sound on the macrobenthic community and there he confirmed that the effects were indeed profound:

Quote
With increasing proximity to the farm there was: (1) reduced areal species richness; (2) reduced macrofaunal biomass; (3) an order-of-magnitude increase in Capitella cf. capitata density; and (4) a slight decrease in total macrofaunal abundance. (Weston 1990)

Weston also reported that "All chemical measurements indicated that the 0 m station [the one directly below the site] was heavily affected by culture activities....[and that the] effects of culture activities on the seafloor were readily visible."  Of course his study was only of the "enrichment" effects of the farms so his chemical analysis was limited to carbon, nitrogen, water-soluable sulphide content (caused by the de-oxygenation of the sediments), and mineral stability.  He was not testing for the presence of other chemicals associated with the feed like the antibiotics and pesticides so his study is not useful to showing these impacts are "miniscule".

It was studies like this, and the reaction by those "reactionists" that saw fish farms move to new sites that were better flushed (Rensel and Forster 2007).  However, moving to a better flushed site does not reduce the effects of "enrichment," it just reduces the enrichment (the site continues to produce the harmful outputs, but they are better distributed to reduce the effects, kind of like running a car in a closed garage vs opening the bay door or piping the exhaust outside...the exhaust is just as harmful, but it is now being released into the outside air and being "diluted" so the effects are no longer seen).  Even in their report "Beneficial Environmental Effects of Marine Finfish Mariculture" (from which I see you get most of your arguments) prepared for the NOAA National Marine Fisheries Service's National Sea Grant College Programme,  Rensel and Forster admit that there were "adverse effects" at some earlier sites that were studied in the 1990s (they also cite Weston), but that "most of the problems associated with net pen aquaculture in the U.S. are manageable or have been dealt with" so we need not worry any more as the fish farms are now "properly located." 

Furthermore, your argument that these farms are affecting a small percent of the coastal area is negated by the desired expansion of the industry.  The more the industry expands the greater this impact will be.  But of course it can expand unchecked until some one else provides the inarguable proof of the concentration numbers that would make the impact "harmful."  And who gets to decide which small parts of the environment get to be written off while the farms are there?

Document those catches of second generation young. I know you and your compatriot reactionaries don't do proof, but I'd like to see some.

I thought "The world doesn't owe you the answers; you've got the responsibility for the matter."  Again the "H" word comes to mind...but here it is anyway.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=juvenile%20atlantic%20salmon%20british%20columbia%20tsi&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.uvic.ca%2F~serg%2Fpapers%2FVolpe%2520et%2520al.%25202000%2520Conservation%2520Biology%2520(14)%2520899-903.pdf&ei=RQkRT6v6LOSniQKThZjLDQ&usg=AFQjCNFdAHkCm1j9cTHcCAZPjWpa563fUA&sig2=IoRe4ddfyQ8PsZUo_JXAIg&cad=rja (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=juvenile%20atlantic%20salmon%20british%20columbia%20tsi&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.uvic.ca%2F~serg%2Fpapers%2FVolpe%2520et%2520al.%25202000%2520Conservation%2520Biology%2520(14)%2520899-903.pdf&ei=RQkRT6v6LOSniQKThZjLDQ&usg=AFQjCNFdAHkCm1j9cTHcCAZPjWpa563fUA&sig2=IoRe4ddfyQ8PsZUo_JXAIg&cad=rja)

The introduction was reasoned and well managed, the introduced stock is contained and controlled.

The escapes have been reduced but not eliminated (just the reporting has).  A review of the research has revealed that open net salmon farms contribute to coastal nutrient pollution (exacerbating existing problems from agricultural runoff, sewage discharges and atmospheric deposition), releases toxic compounds (exacerbating existing pollution of coastal ecosystems), and interferes with the performance of existing wild salmonid stocks (exacerbating the continuing decline in wild salmon stocks).  Given the large gaps in our knowledge and the acknowledged poor state of health of wild stocks, regulatory agencies and policy-makers should apply the precautionary principle to decisions concerning expansion of salmon aquaculture in BC waters.

Victoria dumped it's sewage and it was essentially harmless because of the principle of dilution. The greenies got up in arms because it violates environmental principles not to be seen to treat it so it didn't matter if Victoria's sewage discharge actually caused no harm, it became a bone in their craw. The conjured images of turds bobbing around the kelp beds made it great subject for the media, guaranteed to raise hackles and arouse public ire. Never mind that it actually doing no harm at the levels of discharge that were done.

Well there you have it.  So intent are you to defend the farms you are actually arguing that Victoria pump raw sewage into the Straits.

Dilution does not get rid of what’s in sewage (organics, pathogens like hepatitis, heavy metals or chemicals) and therefore it doesn’t prevent the long-term damage to the environment, or the waste of the energy and mineral resources carried by sewage.  Furthermore, contrary to what we’ve been told, the currents near the outfalls do not carry the sewage out into the Pacific. Rather, because currents change direction with the ebb and flow of the tide, a lot of the sewage either stays nearby or flows back into Georgia Strait.  And I am not picking on Victoria, as most of Greater Vancouver sewage only receives primary treatment and then frequent discharges of untreated sewage occur after heavy rains back up the sewer systems.  Not to mention that non-point source pollution is just as damaging as it too is untreated.  But as I have already stated, just because there are other harmful effects caused by other activities, that does not mean we should not continue to work to eliminate them.  Open pen fish farms, as a source of pollution, just do not need to be here ,so unlike stopping oil run off from road after a rainfall, harm from a fish farm can easily be removed by their closure.

I'll tell you what; it's time to broaden your horizons a bit. I'll give you a little lesson on confirming facts for yourself. Go to Google and type in the search box "metabolization of antibiotics" and start reading. Follow the useful links and start compiling the information you need to consider in order to answer your question. The world doesn't owe you the answers; you've got the responsibility for the matter.

Stop patronizing anyone who does not restrict their reading to Aquaculture Digest as "narrow minded" and practice what you preach.  I have read the literature, many of the same sources you cite, and I just do not agree with the conclusions that you, and the aquaculturalists, are drawing from them.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 14, 2012, 09:14:49 AM
Well, I was going to give absolon a pat on the back for another great post but I won't as that would be following the lead of Chris and af :D
Seems the only posters to this thread have determined their positions ... looking forward to the next round of bs by Alex to keep this discussion going ;)
OK, not to disappoint you here is a start. ;D ;D ;D
01/14/2012
Two Norwegian Salmon Farmers in Court Next Week
Next week Marine Harvest will be in Port Hardy Provincial Court for sentencing for illegal possession of wild salmon and herring. And Cermaq (Mainstream) will be in court trying to sue Don Staniford for his effort to get salmon farms out of the ocean.

Marine Harvest - Port Hardy, Wednesday January 18
In June 2009, young wild salmon were seen spilling onto the dock in Port McNeill as live Atlantic salmon were unloaded from a vessel into a truck. The farm salmon were being transported to a hatchery to strip their eggs, but Marine Harvest did not have a licence to possess the wild salmon which had been presumably scooped out of the sea pen with the Atlantic salmon. Bill Mackay of Mackay Whale Watching picked up some of these fish and gave them to me for identification - they were pink salmon. I pressed a charged under the Fisheries Act, and for the first time ever the Department of Justice (DOJ) took over a private prosecution and moved forward with the case. More generally when the DOJ takes over a private citizen's case they stay the charges. The DOJ required Fisheries and Oceans Canada to actually lay charges against Marine Harvest for illegal possession of wild salmon, as well as, a second report involving juvenile herring. The trial did not proceed, Marine Harvest spokesman, Clare Backman is quoted in the Times Colonist saying the "the company will plead guilty in court Jan. 18. He said there are two counts of incidental bycatch, but he could not elaborate further on the case until after the legal proceedings are concluded."
(Times Colonist, Oct 23, 2011).

The salmon incident originated at the Marine Harvest salmon feedlot called Potts Bay, Midsummer Island at the mouth of Knight Inlet and the herring were taken from the Marine Harvest Arrow Pass feedlot - both in the Broughton Archipelago.

If you can attend the Port Hardy Court House at 9 am on Wednesday January 18, please do. We know fishermen are heavily for illegal possession of one salmon - it will be interesting to see how the courts respond to Norwegian salmon farm by-catch of wild BC fish.

If you are concerned about wild fish being killed in salmon feedlots and have information on wild fish in farm salmon or salmon farms, please send pictures and reports.

Cermaq (Mainstream Canada) Vancouver, Monday January 16
Also next week the Norwegian salmon farm company Cermaq is attempting to sue Don Staniford for publishing graphics that compare salmon farming to the tobacco industry. Don has been working to protect wild salmon from salmon farms for almost 20 years. He has gone to investigate the industry around the world including Chile, Norway and Scotland. Don has met with the CEOs, gone to the share holder meetings, met with scientists, has pressured environmental organizations not to succumb to industry pressure, he has been tireless, fearless and incorruptible. When Cermaq tried to silence him "Staniford responded one minute past the deadline and with another cigarette-like-package graphic that read "Norwegian Owned" and included an image of a raised middle finger and the words "Salmon Farming." article Don has worked for several environmental organizations in the past but is going solo on this. Don needs funds to go toe to toe with a company whose largest shareholder is the Norwegian government. If you can help please do.If you can attend the opening day please show support for this brave man at the Court House at Hornby and Nelson 10 am, the exact court # will be posted in the lobby that morning. It was revolting to watch the eye-contact darting back and forth between government employees on the stand at the Cohen Inquiry and the salmon farming representatives. They were huddled together in the hallways. The industry told us their fish would be tested, but appear to have changed their minds after the hearings. The people who are reporting on and challenging this industry in court are taking personal risk and need your help.

Your presence and your money are crucial. If we want wild salmon it is up to us.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 14, 2012, 09:19:08 AM
Here is the Times Colonist article mentioned above if interested in reading.

http://www.timescolonist.com/Salmon+firm+admit+breach+bycatch/5594257/story.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 14, 2012, 03:43:00 PM
http://issuu.com/steelhead-salmon-society/docs/legacy212?mid=57
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 14, 2012, 05:43:16 PM

"The salmon farming industry has been habitually skewing information to bolster its practices and image - it's been doing this for decades. And, as recent history has revealed, the credibility of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) has been compromised by its conflicting mandates of managing wild salmon and promoting salmon farming. Now we discover that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) has its own conflicting mandates of suppressing pathogens while enhancing marketing opportunities for fish products. Consequently, when a viral disease is reported and the commercial value of fish is threatened, the CFIA assumes a defensive position by questioning the findings of the testing labs, by re-testing the degraded samples of infected fish with its notoriously inaccurate technology, and then recording "inconclusive" results as "negative".

This strategy is evident in an e-mail from a CFIA executive, Joseph Beres, to his colleagues, congratulating them on a conference call to the media that was intended to quell concerns about allegations of ISAv in BC salmon. "It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour," he writes, "and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokesmen at the Tech Briefing yesterday... Congratulations! One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war also." This is the response of a promoter concerned about reputation and market, not the response of a scientist concerned about the danger of an ecosystem-threatening virus.

This might explain why the CFIA didn't submit to the Cohen Commission evidence of ISAv in more than 100 wild salmon a decade ago. And why DFO advised its molecular geneticist, Dr. Kristi Miller, to curtail her research on ISAv - precisely the opposite of how prudence and science should respond to such an urgent situation."


This is the same CFIA that has promised to test 8,000 wild and farmed salmon over the next 2 years to find out if three potentially deadly fish diseases are present in BC waters. The project is aimed at detecting any signs  infectious salmon anemia, infectious pancreatic necrosis or infectious hematopoietic necrosis. What's the likely hood of their tests showing up any disease which would affect the marketability of farmed fish in BC??   ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 14, 2012, 10:48:59 PM

First:
Then:
Hypocritical don't you think? Anyway, those numbers were from the first document you provided, I do not remember what page, but you then I had assumed that you had read it.

Not hypocritical; I am aware of where you sourced your numbers but thought it a good idea to have you revist your sources and see if you noted that the freshwater sector economic output is included in the calculating the economic contribution of the sportfishing sector that you were quoting as justification of it's relative importance; thus the numbers are considerably higher than those obtained from the sport salmon fishery alone, the one you purport to be under threat from farms. The last paper specifically and exclusively addresses the economic outputs of the various salmon fisheries and uses (and discusses the reasons for using) a methodology that more accurately analyzes effects. Those numbers I quoted to you from that study reflect the salmon only component of aquaculture, sport and wild fisheries.

Quote
I began by stating specifically that I wanted to hear your own ideas and that I would be presenting my own, not quoting others.  We have seen all kinds of studies quoted already and we have seen both sides pick each other's so called experts apart and try to discredit the science behind them.  I just wanted to hear your own ideas. But we can go back to discrediting the scientists again.

These are my ideas, carefully considered, well researched and validated by experience. You disagree with them. I disagree with yours. I can only support my reasons for my beliefs by using external sources. You obviously are not prepared to accept my word alone. I can only support my disagreement with your ideas by using external sources. Again, you are not prepared to accept my word alone. The point is not to present experts, it is to present information. The point is not to discredit experts, it is to use empirical evidence to counter subjective beliefs. Knowledge is power; information aids understanding.

Either that or we can stand in our respective corners and throw rocks at each other.
Quote
Who[/b] identified out the "potential problem" with sea lice affecting the pinks in Broughton?  Are you suggesting that the fish farms would have developed their "solutions" had this problem not been identified by people "outside" the fish farms.  ::) It is only because of the critics, that these farms are located in the sites they are now located (better flushing) and that they are doing anything at all to mitigate their impacts on the environment.  Everything they are forced to do to appease the critics eats into their profits.  They wouldn't be doing it on their own (unless the impact was affecting their own production of course).

You obviously don't understand one of the fundamental principles of fish husbandry. To put it crudely, one doesn't cupcakes on one's own doorstep. The fish have to live in that environment that you claim farms wantonly degrade and damage in the drive to increase profit. The point you miss is if the environment is degraded, the fish are under greater stress, grow less and more slowly, get sick and die in greater numbers and increase operational costs to the farm. The farm maximizes it's profit by maximizing it's environmental quality and maximizing the health status of the stocks. It is in their best interests to react to developing problems as quickly as they can with the most effective method available. Farms already understood about flow rates and site fallowing and used them as operational tools. The sites were not moved, they were fallowed during outmigration.

Quote
Yeah, I think someone did. That was why they developed their "solutions" to those harms.  But they should be responsible for "demonstrating that harm" and assessing their impact and developing the solutions.  Private citizens should not have to foot the bill to point out these harms being perpetrated by an industry that is here supposedly for our own good.  Unfortunately we cannot trust a company to properly monitor itself, and clearly we cannot trust the government to do so either.

I don't think we'll arrive at a satisfactory agreement about who was responsible for the solutions and what the farm's internal programs were in the absence of the media spectacle. The issue became another of Morton's circuses and has become so polarized and subjectively interpreted tha discussion of that aspect is pointless. Suffice to say, it was a manageable problem, and it was managed. The pink stocks still exist in the Broughton and the trend in run size belies all those apocalyptic predictions the reactionaries trotted out.


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 14, 2012, 11:25:02 PM
You obviously don't understand one of the fundamental principles of fish husbandry. To put it crudely, one doesn't **** on one's own doorstep. The fish have to live in that environment that you claim farms wantonly degrade and damage in the drive to increase profit. The point you miss is if the environment is degraded, the fish are under greater stress, grow less and more slowly, get sick and die in greater numbers and increase operational costs to the farm. The farm maximizes it's profit by maximizing it's environmental quality and maximizing the health status of the stocks. It is in their best interests to react to developing problems as quickly as they can with the most effective method available.

Ah, but I do.  As I said, they would correct the problem if it affected their stocks.  But the farmed salmon's environment is the pen, not the surrounding ocean, and the farmers are concerned about the quality of the water in the pen, not below it or "down stream."  That is why they use the antibacterials in the first place.  If the harm to the environment is affecting the wild fish swimming past the farm, they would not do a thing about it if someone did not make them (through a media circus) to take notice.  As I said, it would be nice if the farmers would act more responsibly and proactively and not only act when someone publishes outrageous claims in the media.


Farms already understood about flow rates and site fallowing and used them as operational tools. The sites were not moved, they were fallowed during outmigration.

Well not according to Rensel and Forster.  They specifically state that the criticism over the harmful environmental affects of the farms was based on Weston's research of farms that are no longer located in the same place.  They state that the farms are now "properly located".
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 15, 2012, 12:39:34 AM
Yet, still you provide no evidence of this.   However, a study done in 1997 of antibacterial usage found use varied considerably among farms with some farms using as much as 450kg active ingredient per year with "moderate" usage around 70 - 170kg annual usage (Herwig et al 1997), and these farms there it was found that 20% of the bacteria in the sediments near the farm were anti-bacterial resistant.

Herwig's results found that anti-biotic resistant bacteria prevalence declined with reduced usage of antibiotics and declined rapidly as distance from the pens increased. Levels of antibiotics used in 1997 were considerably higher than those used now. Most recent statistics for BC indicate that a farm of sufficient size to harvest 100 tonnes would have used 7.1 kg of antibiotics in that year, 10% of the minimum rate in Herwig's study. Of that 7.1 kg, the largest proportion would be metabolized by the fish. Effects as a consequence of current practice would be considerably less than Herwig's results, and current husbandry practices would reduce it even further because buildup under the site and bacteria exposure to antibiotics would be reduced as a result of better siting and fallowing.

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Yet  still you provide no evidence of this.  In the document you provide later as evidence that the environmental effects are minimal (Dr. Weston's 1985 paper)  doesn't even deal with fin fish waste as it is on floating shellfish farms (I am no biologist, but I suspect shellfish produce less waste than fin fish).   Now Weston's 1990 study may be more useful as he does document the effects of fin fish farms in Puget Sound on the macrobenthic community and there he confirmed that the effects were indeed profound:

Weston also reported that "All chemical measurements indicated that the 0 m station [the one directly below the site] was heavily affected by culture activities....[and that the] effects of culture activities on the seafloor were readily visible."  Of course his study was only of the "enrichment" effects of the farms so his chemical analysis was limited to carbon, nitrogen, water-soluable sulphide content (caused by the de-oxygenation of the sediments), and mineral stability.  He was not testing for the presence of other chemicals associated with the feed like the antibiotics and pesticides so his study is not useful to showing these impacts are "miniscule".

Westons 1986 study does indeed deal with netpen culture and fairly thoroughly. My copy currently resides in the Malaspina University Aquaculture Department library so I can't scan the TOC for you. The best I can do for confirmation at this moment is to refer you to question 18 in this list of FAQ:
http://www.wfga.net/SJDF/faq.html (http://www.wfga.net/SJDF/faq.html)

Since the bulk of the "environmental outputs" of a farm are essentially nutrients, Weston did concentrate on "enrichment" and since feces and waste feed was the point under discussion, Weston's research is extremely to the point. He found that the area directly under the pens was subject to the deposition of a layer of nutrient material and the deposition declined quickly and drastically as distances of 50 meters from the pen were reached; in other words, the affected zone was not much larger than the farm. He found that all though some benthic invertebrate species populations in that zone were negatively affected, other species numbers increased. Once the material decomposed, populations returned to normal. He discovered that on so long as decomposition of the waste remained aerobic, the deposition quickly broke down into elemental constituents, but if the layer got too deep, the decomposition became anerobic and slowed considerably resulting in a greater time period for the site to clear itself. The essential point was that the material does decompose and restore itself when the site is fallowed. That principle has been adopted by the industry; of the 135 or so sites currently held, approximately half are fallow.



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It was studies like this, and the reaction by those "reactionists" that saw fish farms move to new sites that were better flushed (Rensel and Forster 2007).  However, moving to a better flushed site does not reduce the effects of "enrichment," it just reduces the enrichment (the site continues to produce the harmful outputs, but they are better distributed to reduce the effects, kind of like running a car in a closed garage vs opening the bay door or piping the exhaust outside...the exhaust is just as harmful, but it is now being released into the outside air and being "diluted" so the effects are no longer seen).  Even in their report "Beneficial Environmental Effects of Marine Finfish Mariculture" (from which I see you get most of your arguments) prepared for the NOAA National Marine Fisheries Service's National Sea Grant College Programme,  Rensel and Forster admit that there were "adverse effects" at some earlier sites that were studied in the 1990s (they also cite Weston), but that "most of the problems associated with net pen aquaculture in the U.S. are manageable or have been dealt with" so we need not worry any more as the fish farms are now "properly located."

I suspect that report must get their arguments from me. I've not seen it before. Car exhaust is not an input to the trophic web. The elemental nutrients that result from the decomposition of fish waste are. Dilution and dispersal spreads them so that decomposition to those elemental nutrients proceeds more quickly. What most reactionaries can't seem to get their heads wrapped around is that the late eighties and the nineties were a period when the industry was on a steep learning curve to learn the technology and adapt it to our circumstances. There were problems. No one in the industry denies that or attempts to conceal that. Those problems were managed, lesson were learned, understanding grew, practices were refined, technology was improved. The industry today is not the same as it was then, those lessons were learned and there is no negative legacy from those days. Your opinion that there is still a problem is only that, a subjective opinion and a completely unsubstantiated one at that.

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Furthermore, your argument that these farms are affecting a small percent of the coastal area is negated by the desired expansion of the industry.  The more the industry expands the greater this impact will be.  But of course it can expand unchecked until some one else provides the inarguable proof of the concentration numbers that would make the impact "harmful."  And who gets to decide which small parts of the environment get to be written off while the farms are there?

Give me a break. If the industry were to double in size, it would move from using about 3/1000ths of one percent of the coastal waters to 6/1000ths of one percent................. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!...........................It can't and won't expand unchecked, the environment isn't written off, the impact will remain minuscule and reversible...............The sky is falling! The sky is falling!.......................The government has a coastal resource use process that every user is involved in. Everybody gets a shot at getting their needs met....... I know, I know. The government is corrupt...they're in the pocket of the industry....it's a conspiracy to kill all the salmon so they don't have to worry about them anymore.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 15, 2012, 12:40:15 AM
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I thought "The world doesn't owe you the answers; you've got the responsibility for the matter."  Again the "H" word comes to mind...but here it is anyway.

The escapes have been reduced but not eliminated (just the reporting has).  A review of the research has revealed that open net salmon farms contribute to coastal nutrient pollution (exacerbating existing problems from agricultural runoff, sewage discharges and atmospheric deposition), releases toxic compounds (exacerbating existing pollution of coastal ecosystems), and interferes with the performance of existing wild salmonid stocks (exacerbating the continuing decline in wild salmon stocks).  Given the large gaps in our knowledge and the acknowledged poor state of health of wild stocks, regulatory agencies and policy-makers should apply the precautionary principle to decisions concerning expansion of salmon aquaculture in BC waters.

Sorry for the smart my friend reply. I'm so used to these arguments where people refuse to do any research and yet refuse to accept any done by someone else after demanding something be proved to them. The crowd you hang with are not overly intellectual in their approach to this subject and I run out of patience with doing all the leg work only to have it ignored.

I wasn't aware of Volpe's discovery. One would presume, given the finding, that followup studies were done to determine whether the fish had indeed established and given the lack of publicity of any finding by the regulators or the reactionaries, one would suppose that further confirmation was not made. Although Don McPhail, who wrote the definitive book on freshwater fish in BC, reported broad dispersal of stray Atlantics, he found no evidence of any established breeding population and his is the most current and broadest look.

If the intent is to preserve the wild salmon stocks, the greatest guarantee of success, the fastest results possible and the least cost associated would result from eliminating the greatest demand on the resource, the commercial fishing fleet. The precautionary principle would suggest that as the first option for action. It doesn't matter how many times you say drug residue, toxic compound or nutrient load. It doesn't make the actual damage done by the proportionally tiny amounts used and extremely small areas affected into something significant or indicative of permanent or consequential damage. It doesn't matter how many times you say farmed stocks harm wild stocks. Until there is empirical evidence that remains and carries all the weight of a subjective opinion.
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Well there you have it.  So intent are you to defend the farms you are actually arguing that Victoria pump raw sewage into the Straits.

Dilution does not get rid of what’s in sewage (organics, pathogens like hepatitis, heavy metals or chemicals) and therefore it doesn’t prevent the long-term damage to the environment, or the waste of the energy and mineral resources carried by sewage.  Furthermore, contrary to what we’ve been told, the currents near the outfalls do not carry the sewage out into the Pacific. Rather, because currents change direction with the ebb and flow of the tide, a lot of the sewage either stays nearby or flows back into Georgia Strait.  And I am not picking on Victoria, as most of Greater Vancouver sewage only receives primary treatment and then frequent discharges of untreated sewage occur after heavy rains back up the sewer systems.  Not to mention that non-point source pollution is just as damaging as it too is untreated.  But as I have already stated, just because there are other harmful effects caused by other activities, that does not mean we should not continue to work to eliminate them.  Open pen fish farms, as a source of pollution, just do not need to be here ,so unlike stopping oil run off from road after a rainfall, harm from a fish farm can easily be removed by their closure.

I have no intent to attack or defend Victoria for dumping it's sewage. I merely pointed out that they have a valid argument; dilution is an acknowledged way to deal with disposal. Organics do decompose, antibiotics have fairly short half lives, heavy metals bind up in subsea soils instead of accumulating in terrestrial soil, chemical toxicity is reduced. It may violate your principles, but it works.

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Stop patronizing anyone who does not restrict their reading to Aquaculture Digest as "narrow minded" and practice what you preach.  I have read the literature, many of the same sources you cite, and I just do not agree with the conclusions that you, and the aquaculturalists, are drawing from them.

I'll stop patronizing when people start using their intelligence rather than their gullibility to spectacle and manipulation to look at this subject and when they stop confusing uninformed opinion with proven facts. I understand that you don't agree, and I understand your disagreements stem from a string of what-might-happen scenarios rather than any real event. As I've said many times in this thread: everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this subject. Nobody's opinion, however, negates the facts, and ignorance of those facts and the inability to understand those facts renders them no less important.

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 15, 2012, 12:48:41 AM
Ah, but I do.  As I said, they would correct the problem if it affected their stocks.  But the farmed salmon's environment is the pen, not the surrounding ocean, and the farmers are concerned about the quality of the water in the pen, not below it or "down stream."  That is why they use the antibacterials in the first place.  If the harm to the environment is affecting the wild fish swimming past the farm, they would not do a thing about it if someone did not make them (through a media circus) to take notice.  As I said, it would be nice if the farmers would act more responsibly and proactively and not only act when someone publishes outrageous claims in the media.

Anything that swims by the pen is going to affect them. Fish diseases come from the wild stocks. If there are excessive lice, the farms bear the brunt. If nutrients feed plankton blooms, fish die. I understand you disagree with the requiremment but one really needs some basic understanding of farm operation and husbandry practices and principles in order to criticize effectively.


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Well not according to Rensel and Forster.  They specifically state that the criticism over the harmful environmental affects of the farms was based on Weston's research of farms that are no longer located in the same place.  They state that the farms are now "properly located".

In the case of Westons research that is true. Your phrasing was unclear and it appeared to refer to the sea lice issue, suggesting that farms just learned those techniques from that problem.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 15, 2012, 08:53:13 AM
Anything that swims by the pen is going to affect them. Fish diseases come from the wild stocks. If there are excessive lice, the farms bear the brunt. If nutrients feed plankton blooms, fish die. I understand you disagree with the requiremment but one really needs some basic understanding of farm operation and husbandry practices and principles in order to criticize effectively.

Thanks for pointing out these harmful effects of Fish Farms.  While I appreciate the farmers trying to mitigate their negative impacts (as you point out so eloquently) in order to save their crops and maximize their profits, but until they are moved out of the ocean, they will continue to have a negative impact and they will continue to have to develop ways to manage it.  Unlike you, I do not see the benefits of the farms (jobs & cheap protein) out weighing the negative impacts both current and potential.


In the case of Westons research that is true. Your phrasing was unclear and it appeared to refer to the sea lice issue, suggesting that farms just learned those techniques from that problem.

Even in the case of fallowing, while the farms may have developed fallowing as a strategy to control disease and parasitic outbreaks, was it not a government Order that forced the sites to fallow during out migrations of wild fish?  I also find it puzzling that DFO is still claiming that there is no evidence, despite repeated publish studies (not all by Morton by the way), that farms cause lice infestations.

Quote from: DFO FAQ
Are fish farms in the Broughton Archipelago causing the dramatic increase in sea lice levels?

This is unlikely. Sea lice were not originally a salmon-farming phenomenon. Sea lice existed on wild salmon for tens of thousands of years before the first salmon farm was established in Canada and wild salmon have adapted to them.

There are two possible sources of sea lice in the Broughton Archipelago: natural sources such as other fish, or salmon farms. Last year’s studies indicate that the contribution from other fish (sticklebacks) was significant. However, there is no evidence to suggest that the increased sea lice levels negatively affected the growth and condition of infected adult pink salmon.

Sea lice levels can also be carefully controlled [by chemical treatments] on the salmon farm thereby reducing the risk of infecting fish living outside the farm to a negligible amount.

This seems to fly in the face of research conducted all over the world since the 1980s.  While the impact of sea lice on outgoing migrating pink salmon in Broughton may be "inconclusive" to DFO, I find it disturbing that DFO would try to suggest the lice in the sound are coming from sticklebacks, not the millions of salmon in the pens that would not normally have been there year round.  While it is true lice have been around for thousands of years, probably as long as the salmon themselves, they have never had the presence of millions of fish kept in such close quarters to feed on year round before.  Furthermore, while farmers can (and do) try to control disease and parasites on their farms, the very nature of the open net pen ensures that while they are treating their stock, the spread of the pathogens into the surrounding environment is continuing.  And should they reach the critical mass and be forced to remove their stock for disposal, the pathogens may have already spread to surrounding organisms.

All I am hearing is that the negative effects are minor and a necessary evil:

Quote from: DFO FAQ
Not one of these activities is entirely free of effects on the environment, yet we have come to accept them as part of the natural course of our lives either out of necessity, convenience or pleasure. Regulatory controls, monitoring and compliance protocols, and penalties exist to ensure these industries remain compliant with environmental standards.

You yourself stated any negative effects on the relatively "small" area affected by the farms are minor compared to the large area of the BC coast line.  But that is also, in itself, not a good argument for continuing to harm an environment.  I would not accept that argument from a forest company who says while their clear-cutting of this valley will likely harm this salmon stream, there are lots of other streams for salmon to use;  Or a mining company saying my tailings pond will only affect this one lake, there are many other lakes in BC.  Therefore I will not accept that argument from a farmer.  In the case of the "by catch" of wild fish that Chris posted, where do you suppose the wild fish in the pen came from?  If we accept that the company did not illegally plant them there, then the fish must have swam into the pens as juveniles through the mesh and decided to stay there an eat the food falling from the sky.  Now, if the fish happened to be coming from a stream with a depressed run, those fish could represent a significant impact on the stocks of that one stream.  What if those fish were the last few wild steelhead from a nearby stream?  Still only a minor impact compared to the thousands of streams on the coast?  While it may be "unlikely," and no documented evidence has been found yet that it has happened.  If we wait for the inarguable proof that open net pens have contributed to the disappearance of the wild salmon in even one stream, it will be too late to save them.

Furthermore, contrary to DFO's claim, while the government agencies may have "come to accept [these activities] as a natural course of our lives" many of us have not and are continually pressing for government to change its policies in response to our growing understanding of the severe long term impacts these other activities are having.  Therefore, to tout them as an excuse to continue or to allow new similarly harmful activities "out of necessity, convenience or pleasure" is just wrong.
 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 15, 2012, 10:03:25 AM
Thanks for pointing out these harmful effects of Fish Farms.  While I appreciate the farmers trying to mitigate their negative impacts (as you point out so eloquently) in order to save their crops and maximize their profits, but until they are moved out of the ocean, they will continue to have a negative impact and they will continue to have to develop ways to manage it.  Unlike you, I do not see the benefits of the farms (jobs & cheap protein) out weighing the negative impacts both current and potential.

A moments thought will make it very clear that all of those effects are effects on the farmed stock which don't have the option to swim away. It will also be apparent that by following good husbandry practices, the farm can minimize it's exposure to those effects. I am very clear on your judgment; in my view, you grossly exaggerate the effects and even include effects that have not occurred in your value calculation and that taints your evaluation.


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Even in the case of fallowing, while the farms may have developed fallowing as a strategy to control disease and parasitic outbreaks, was it not a government Order that forced the sites to fallow during out migrations of wild fish?  I also find it puzzling that DFO is still claiming that there is no evidence, despite repeated publish studies (not all by Morton by the way), that farms cause lice infestations.

Whether or not it was a government order is irrelevant; the farms willingly followed the fallowing program. As is so often the case with reactionary arguments, semantics are used to imply the industry wasn't fully co-operative and supportive.


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This seems to fly in the face of research conducted all over the world since the 1980s.  While the impact of sea lice on outgoing migrating pink salmon in Broughton may be "inconclusive" to DFO, I find it disturbing that DFO would try to suggest the lice in the sound are coming from sticklebacks, not the millions of salmon in the pens that would not normally have been there year round.  While it is true lice have been around for thousands of years, probably as long as the salmon themselves, they have never had the presence of millions of fish kept in such close quarters to feed on year round before.  Furthermore, while farmers can (and do) try to control disease and parasites on their farms, the very nature of the open net pen ensures that while they are treating their stock, the spread of the pathogens into the surrounding environment is continuing.  And should they reach the critical mass and be forced to remove their stock for disposal, the pathogens may have already spread to surrounding organisms.

Research conducted around the world is not research conducted under the conditions that occur in the Broughton and thus while it may inform research in the Broughton, it is not representative of it. There is no question that farms contribute to sea lice numbers, but there is also no question that farm management techniques can mitigate that effect. It is the final outcome on which results are measured and judgments made, not the existence of some contributing factor. While disease pathogens are shed during outbreaks, the pathogens have extremely short lives in the absence of a host. Those pathogens, should they contact a host, must also be able to overcome the immune response of the host in order to infect them. Since all the pathogens that affect farm fish come from the wild, the wild fish have been exposed and have developed immune responses. Species' disease susceptibility varies so pathogens which may harm farm fish have no effect on wild fish. Even farm fish have an immune response that wards off pathogens. A disease can take hold in a farm environment only when stress levels in the fish compromise their immune response.

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All I am hearing is that the negative effects are minor and a necessary evil:

You yourself stated any negative effects on the relatively "small" area affected by the farms are minor compared to the large area of the BC coast line.  But that is also, in itself, not a good argument for continuing to harm an environment.  I would not accept that argument from a forest company who says while their clear-cutting of this valley will likely harm this salmon stream, there are lots of other streams for salmon to use;  Or a mining company saying my tailings pond will only affect this one lake, there are many other lakes in BC.  Therefore I will not accept that argument from a farmer.  In the case of the "by catch" of wild fish that Chris posted, where do you suppose the wild fish in the pen came from?  If we accept that the company did not illegally plant them there, then the fish must have swam into the pens as juveniles through the mesh and decided to stay there an eat the food falling from the sky.  Now, if the fish happened to be coming from a stream with a depressed run, those fish could represent a significant impact on the stocks of that one stream.  What if those fish were the last few wild steelhead from a nearby stream?  Still only a minor impact compared to the thousands of streams on the coast?  While it may be "unlikely," and no documented evidence has been found yet that it has happened.  If we wait for the inarguable proof that open net pens have contributed to the disappearance of the wild salmon in even one stream, it will be too late to save them.

Furthermore, contrary to DFO's claim, while the government agencies may have "come to accept [these activities] as a natural course of our lives" many of us have not and are continually pressing for government to change its policies in response to our growing understanding of the severe long term impacts these other activities are having.  Therefore, to tout them as an excuse to continue or to allow new similarly harmful activities "out of necessity, convenience or pleasure" is just wrong.

That is because the effects are indeed very minor and contained to very small areas.They have no long term effects and make no permanent changes. They are a very minor but necessary cost of obtaining the benefits that the industry provides.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on January 15, 2012, 10:04:41 AM
Morton and Staniford are on their way to Victoria with cutting boards in hand http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/15/nb-bc-virus-outbreak.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/01/15/nb-bc-virus-outbreak.html)....... ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 15, 2012, 03:24:46 PM
A moments thought will make it very clear that all of those effects are effects on the farmed stock which don't have the option to swim away.

You assume of course that the fish would swim away if they had a choice, but clearly those wild fish caught in the fish net pens chose not to swim away.  One also wonders how many swam away while they were still small enough, after staying in the pen for a few weeks? Only to pass on a few anti-bacterial resistant pathogens to their cousins?  We will come back to those later.

Whether or not it was a government order is irrelevant; the farms willingly followed the fallowing program. As is so often the case with reactionary arguments, semantics are used to imply the industry wasn't fully co-operative and supportive.

So they had a choice not to follow the government order?  I did not realize that.  I did not say they were uncooperative and non-supportive, I merely questioned why, if they already fallowed (and I know they did) and they already developed the best practices (that I am not convinced they did) to minimize their effects on the environment (and the wild fish that use it), did the government need to order them to do so.  Why were they not already fallowing during out migrations of wild fish?  Obviously the timing of their fallowing, prior to the government order, was at their convenience, not the environment's.  Of course they will comply when the government tells them to, they want to stay in business.  I get that.  However, I can not help but feel that their reasons for doing so are a little more self-serving and a lot less environmentally responsible than you suggest.

There is no question that farms contribute to sea lice numbers...

I know that.  You know that.  I also would also bet the farmers know that (since controlling the lice numbers is costly to their bottom line).  However, the DFO apparently does not know that, as they clearly call that very fact into question on the FAQ sheet I quoted earlier.  It makes you wonder whose interest they are really protecting.


It is the final outcome on which results are measured and judgments made, not the existence of some contributing factor. While disease pathogens are shed during outbreaks, the pathogens have extremely short lives in the absence of a host.

which they would find as the pens are on major migratory paths of wild salmon.

Those pathogens, should they contact a host, must also be able to overcome the immune response of the host in order to infect them. Since all the pathogens that affect farm fish come from the wild, the wild fish have been exposed and have developed immune responses.  Species' disease susceptibility varies so pathogens which may harm farm fish have no effect on wild fish. Even farm fish have an immune response that wards off pathogens. A disease can take hold in a farm environment only when stress levels in the fish compromise their immune response.

And the fact that they are crowded in pens does not cause them stress? 

Quote from: Folke & Kautsky, 1992
The rapid expansion of intensive one-species aquaculture has generated severe environmental as well as socio-economic problems. . . The characteristics of one-species aquaculture, such as intensive throughput-based salmon cage-farming and shrimp pond-farming, are found to be similar to those of stressed ecosystems".

Could a farmed salmon not pick up a case of IHN, VHS, or ISA or what have you, and since they have little immunity to that disease and are stressed by their confinement to such a small area, have that disease propagate and thrive to the point of the farmers having to try to fight the disease with chemicals?  Then could that farmed salmon (assuming it has survived long enough) then pass that disease to other wild salmon as they are passing the pens on their way back to the rivers to spawn (a highly stressful activity)?  Then would this not increase the likelihood of those wild salmon dying from the disease?  Would it not make sense to not have these potential sources of disease on the migratory paths of wild fish already stressed to the point of collapse?


That is because the effects are indeed very minor and contained to very small areas.They have no long term effects and make no permanent changes. They are a very minor but necessary cost of obtaining the benefits that the industry provides.

You keep saying they are minor, but the research I have read says otherwise.

Quote from: White et al., 2004

Like other forms of intensive food production, industrial-scale fish farming generates significant environmental costs . . .The expansion of some forms of aquaculture, particularly salmon and shrimp farms, has proven to be destructive to the natural environment and populations of aquatic animals. Industrial scale farming of salmon in netpens and shrimp in coastal ponds are the most problematic because they require the intensive use of resources and export problems to the surrounding environment.

Quote from: Krkošek et al., 2005 quoted in Buschmann et al., 2006
Salmonid farms can alter the natural transmission dynamics of sea lice to wild juvenile salmon with infestation pressures four orders of magnitude greater than the natural ambient level

Four orders of magnitude greater hardly seems "very minor".  Other sources claim much higher orders of magnitude (73 times) but since they do not cite specific studies we will ignore them,  but a 2003/4 Norwegian study showed infection rates 3-8 times greater around farms than in an adjacent temporarily farm free area (Bijorn et al., 2011).

It is great that you assure us that all these problems the research has shown to be the results of net pen fish farming have been solved and that the the fish farmers in BC now all operate according to "best practices."   However, you will forgive me if I remain as unconvinced as you are that that the dangers do not outweigh the benefits, which are going to be much smaller job-wise as the industry expands.  As is true in other industrialized modes of food production, when "farming methods have become more intensive, . . . employment opportunities have declined (White et al, 2004).  If you want to support fish farming, you should be supporting truly sustainable farming practices and not industrial feed lot production.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 16, 2012, 09:45:19 AM
Foir those that donot have this link and want something to read on a snowy day.

http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 16, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
You assume of course that the fish would swim away if they had a choice, but clearly those wild fish caught in the fish net pens chose not to swim away.  One also wonders how many swam away while they were still small enough, after staying in the pen for a few weeks? Only to pass on a few anti-bacterial resistant pathogens to their cousins?  We will come back to those later.

Sounds very fearsome, but those escapees would have had to have been digging in the substrate under the pen to come in contact with any anti-biotic resistant bacteria. Even if they had, it wouldn't matter since they aren't going to be treated with antibiotics at any time. While those bacteria may be resistant to antibiotics, they are still vulnerable to the fish's own immune response.

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So they had a choice not to follow the government order?  I did not realize that.  I did not say they were uncooperative and non-supportive, I merely questioned why, if they already fallowed (and I know they did) and they already developed the best practices (that I am not convinced they did) to minimize their effects on the environment (and the wild fish that use it), did the government need to order them to do so.  Why were they not already fallowing during out migrations of wild fish?  Obviously the timing of their fallowing, prior to the government order, was at their convenience, not the environment's.  Of course they will comply when the government tells them to, they want to stay in business.  I get that.  However, I can not help but feel that their reasons for doing so are a little more self-serving and a lot less environmentally responsible than you suggest.

What you think about their motivation is considerably less important than what actions were taken. Your speculations on motive have a single purpose, and that purpose has nothing to do with fish.

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I know that.  You know that.  I also would also bet the farmers know that (since controlling the lice numbers is costly to their bottom line).  However, the DFO apparently does not know that, as they clearly call that very fact into question on the FAQ sheet I quoted earlier.  It makes you wonder whose interest they are really protecting.

Perhaps you should take this up with the DFO then. There is a difference between contributing to, as I have suggested, and being responsible for, as you suggest. The DFO suggested there that farms were probably not responsible but don't suggest that they didn't contribute. Once again, there are many contributing factors to the situation. Arbitrarily ignoring all but the one you are arguing against makes for good rhetoric but poor problem solving.


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which they would find as the pens are on major migratory paths of wild salmon.

Again, arbitrarily eliminating those pesky details such as pathogen survival time in the absence of a host, degree and duration of exposure and immune response makes for good rhetoric but it also makes for a poor representation of actual circumstances and actual outcomes.



Quote
And the fact that they are crowded in pens does not cause them stress? 

Could a farmed salmon not pick up a case of IHN, VHS, or ISA or what have you, and since they have little immunity to that disease and are stressed by their confinement to such a small area, have that disease propagate and thrive to the point of the farmers having to try to fight the disease with chemicals?  Then could that farmed salmon (assuming it has survived long enough) then pass that disease to other wild salmon as they are passing the pens on their way back to the rivers to spawn (a highly stressful activity)?  Then would this not increase the likelihood of those wild salmon dying from the disease?  Would it not make sense to not have these potential sources of disease on the migratory paths of wild fish already stressed to the point of collapse?

The diseases that break out on salmon farms are caused by pathogens already in the environment. Farm salmon come from hatcheries and the fish are not exposed to the pathogens until they hit the chuck. A disease outbreaks results from the density induced stress compromised immune response and the extended exposure of infected hosts in extremely close proximity of a large number of potentially susceptible hosts. Should a wild fish come close enough to be exposed to live pathogens, it's own immune response will kick in, and because the fish lives in the same environment as the pathogen, it likely has had previous exposure and consequently has a preprogrammed response that will operate unimpeded by the stress levels that compromised the farm fish immune response. Should that response not be sufficient, it is possible that the fish become clinically infected but because the fish doesn't exist in the close proximity to the large numbers of other fish found in farm pens, the likelihood of infecting other fish is much lower and the chances of an epizootic are extremely low.

Another important factor is the differences in disease susceptibility between the penned fish and the wild stocks. An outbreak is more likely to occur in a species susceptible to a particular pathogen but will have little effect on another species that is resistant to that pathogen. Atlantics and Pacifics have different vulnerabilities; the outbreaks in the penned Atlantics often do not pose any risks to Pacifics because of that fact.



Quote
You keep saying they are minor, but the research I have read says otherwise.

Four orders of magnitude greater hardly seems "very minor".  Other sources claim much higher orders of magnitude (73 times) but since they do not cite specific studies we will ignore them,  but a 2003/4 Norwegian study showed infection rates 3-8 times greater around farms than in an adjacent temporarily farm free area (Bijorn et al., 2011).

It is great that you assure us that all these problems the research has shown to be the results of net pen fish farming have been solved and that the the fish farmers in BC now all operate according to "best practices."   However, you will forgive me if I remain as unconvinced as you are that that the dangers do not outweigh the benefits, which are going to be much smaller job-wise as the industry expands.  As is true in other industrialized modes of food production, when "farming methods have become more intensive, . . . employment opportunities have declined (White et al, 2004).  If you want to support fish farming, you should be supporting truly sustainable farming practices and not industrial feed lot production.

There isn't a whole lot of point in citing statements with a reference to author and date unless you also provide some means of identifying the paper you are citing. The reason that supporting documents are cited is not to make a presentation look as if it is very scientific, rather it gives the reader a chance to examine the source document and determine relevance, adherence to context, methodology and accuracy.

I haven't claimed anything like what you attribute to me. What I have said is that there is no direct evidence that farms are causing the declines of the wild stocks, that operating with best practices is in the financial interests of the farms and that farms respond to problems as they are identified in a manner that will best mitigate the problem. The history of the industry in the province has shown that it does not cause the catastrophic damage the reactionaries accuse it of. It is clear that the industry already supplies substantial benefits; expansion may occur but it will be controlled and regulated and monitored, and it will supply more benefits. You're welcome to disagree with the idea that the costs are greater than the benefits that are obtained, but to be convincing, you need to demonstrate that with facts.

If you want to do something constructive for the wild stocks, you should be supporting the elimination of the commercial salmon fishery.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 16, 2012, 10:14:01 AM

If you want to do something constructive for the wild stocks, you should be supporting the elimination of the commercial salmon fishery.

I know that the very best opportunity for the salmon feedlots would be the demise of all wild salmon, as it would eliminate the competition. The second best opportunity for the feedlots would be to see the elimination of the commercial fishery and those preferred wild salmon clogging the grocery shelves.....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 16, 2012, 12:07:15 PM
I thought that what we are concerned with here is the best option for the fish. If we are going to shut down a sector, the best option for the fish is unquestionably putting a halt to the commercial harvest. It says something about your motivation that you would rather maintain that harvest and the harm it does the stocks simply to punish the farms.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 16, 2012, 12:25:11 PM
I know that the very best opportunity for the salmon feedlots would be the demise of all wild salmon, as it would eliminate the competition. The second best opportunity for the feedlots would be to see the elimination of the commercial fishery and those preferred wild salmon clogging the grocery shelves.....
Wild BC salmon aren’t competition for farmed fish for the simple reason there are not enough of them.  No, the real competition for BC farmed salmon are Alaska’s ranched salmon.  Good article in today’s Vancouver Sun how wild salmon coast wide are being impacted by this questionable practice.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 16, 2012, 01:10:12 PM
Wild BC salmon aren’t competition for farmed fish for the simple reason there are not enough of them.  No, the real competition for BC farmed salmon are Alaska’s ranched salmon.  Good article in today’s Vancouver Sun how wild salmon coast wide are being impacted by this questionable practice.

The public perceives Alaska ranched salmon to be equivalent to BC wild salmon whether bought in a grocery store or a restaurant. From a look, feel, taste and cost point of view there is no perceived difference. The public knows that Alaska salmon like BC wild salmon is not fattened up on synthetic feed pellets, antibiotics or dyes.

So if Alaska salmon is competition for feedlot salmon, then I maintain BC wild salmon is as well.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 16, 2012, 01:18:36 PM
I know that the very best opportunity for the salmon feedlots would be the demise of all wild salmon, as it would eliminate the competition. The second best opportunity for the feedlots would be to see the elimination of the commercial fishery and those preferred wild salmon clogging the grocery shelves.....


Dave addresses one of the very real flaws in your argument. Regardless of the public perception of ranched Alaskan salmon, it bears no similarity to harvesting native run wild salmon just as free range ranching of cattle bears no relationship to harvesting animals from the existing wild populations. The problem is that the addition of so many animals to the existing food chain throws the ecosystem and the trophic equilibrium out of balance and affects food availability for the pre-existing wild populations of many different species. The effects aren't confined to salmon. The article can be found here:

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Alaskan+practices+threaten+wild+salmon+conservationists/6001591/story.html (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Alaskan+practices+threaten+wild+salmon+conservationists/6001591/story.html)

The other major flaw is that permission to expand farm operations is not predicated on available supply of or demand for salmon. Expansion is predicated on satisfaction of biological, ecological and environmental criteria as well as ensuring sharing of coastal resources among all user groups. If it was simply a question of meeting demand, the salmon farming companies would simply expand Chilean operations where the regulatory regime is much less strict and cost of operation is lower. Futhermore, any expansion of farm operations after extinguishing the commercial salmon fishery would be of great benefit to the province by replacing lost economic output.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 16, 2012, 01:21:44 PM
I thought that what we are concerned with here is the best option for the fish. If we are going to shut down a sector, the best option for the fish is unquestionably putting a halt to the commercial harvest. It says something about your motivation that you would rather maintain that harvest and the harm it does the stocks simply to punish the farms.

Commercial harvest of wild stocks is considered sustainable and is managed to allow adequate escapement to ensure survival.  When there are low return years, minimal or no commercial fisheries are authorized.

The problems seem to lie in the survival of the fry when they migrate to the ocean. Eliminating the feedlot hazard is something that is controllable just like escapement numbers are. Unfortunately DFO's conflict of interest prevents it from getting rid of the net pens.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 16, 2012, 01:33:10 PM
The public knows that Alaska salmon like BC wild salmon is not fattened up on synthetic feed pellets, antibiotics or dyes.
For the first year of their life and while growing out in net pens they are treated the same way as farmed Atlantics or our hatchery raised Pacifics, meaning antibiotics are used if necessary and the diet is identical.
I mentioned in an earlier post the amount of fungicide (formaldehyde marketed as "parasite S") is used in a small hatchery operation like the Cultus Lake sockeye program - the mind boggles at what amount Alaska uses.
But you nailed it af, it's public perception and marketing that runs this ship and I give full marks to Ms. Morton et al for beguiling so many people.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 16, 2012, 01:38:07 PM
Monday is here, I believe someone mentioned a while back I should post some info on the court case.

http://thecanadian.org/item/1278-salmon-activist-outpouring-public-cash-legal-battle-staniford-cermaq-mainstream-aquaculture
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 16, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
Dave addresses one of the very real flaws in your argument. Regardless of the public perception of ranched Alaskan salmon, it bears no similarity to harvesting native run wild salmon just as free range ranching of cattle bears no relationship to harvesting animals from the existing wild populations. The problem is that the addition of so many animals to the existing food chain throws the ecosystem and the trophic equilibrium out of balance and affects food availability for the pre-existing wild populations of many different species. The effects aren't confined to salmon. The article can be found here:

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Alaskan+practices+threaten+wild+salmon+conservationists/6001591/story.html (http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Alaskan+practices+threaten+wild+salmon+conservationists/6001591/story.html)


That's just a red herring argument with no basis in fact. It's often argued that hatchery salmon are less competitive than wild salmon because of their inferior genes. If that is true then it could be argued that wild salmon will out compete hatchery salmon. Therefore the Alaskan salmon should have minimal affect on the survival of BC wild salmon.

We should really be looking at the sustainability of fish farming as a whole. Apparently fish farms already consume more than 70% of the world's production of fish oil, with most of the balance being consumed by livestock and poultry. This is putting tremendous pressure on course fish in the ocean. If the fish farms continue raping the ocean this will effect the survival of the course fish as they are not be able to reproduce fast enough.

So i suggest that pointing a finger at the Alaskan way of doing things is pretty hypocritical. In the case of Alaskan salmon at least the released smolts are required to forage and their survival depends on their instincts for survival. In the case of fish farms they hire commercial fishermen to scrape the ocean destroying the eco system and killing everything in their nets in order to sell their catch to the farms which turn around and produce less than a kg of seafood for every 3 kg they scrape out of the ocean.

At least the wild salmon/Alaskan salmon has a respect for the ocean environment allowing it to produce food on a ecologically friendly and sustainable manner. Fish farming unlike livestock or poultry farming is not sustainable.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 16, 2012, 02:09:07 PM
Monday is here, I believe someone mentioned a while back I should post some info on the court case.

http://thecanadian.org/item/1278-salmon-activist-outpouring-public-cash-legal-battle-staniford-cermaq-mainstream-aquaculture

My prediction is that Mainstream will drop the case pretty quickly. All this case is doing is giving Saniford another opportunity to air all of Mainstream's dirty laundry.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 16, 2012, 02:59:04 PM
Commercial harvest of wild stocks is considered sustainable and is managed to allow adequate escapement to ensure survival.  When there are low return years, minimal or no commercial fisheries are authorized.

The problems seem to lie in the survival of the fry when they migrate to the ocean. Eliminating the feedlot hazard is something that is controllable just like escapement numbers are. Unfortunately DFO's conflict of interest prevents it from getting rid of the net pens.

Escapements are calculated by a predictive model and it isn't until after the harvest that true returns become known. It is too late to let more fish go should, as often happens, the returns be lower than predicted. There is also the problem of mixed strains returning at the same time. Strains at severe risk are mixed in with stocks that are stable; the harvest of those stable stocks also harvests the few remaining numbers of strains at risk. Little by little, strains disappear and the stocks become reliant on fewer and fewer sources and narrower and narrower genetic libraries. The abundant coho and spring runs of the sixties and early seventies have been reduced to fractions of their former glory by harvesting by these so-called sustainable fisheries.

Canceling the fishery entirely or putting in place a multi-generation moratorium would result in an abundant return for all remaining strains and ensure maximum reproduction to facilitate rebuilding the runs, maximum return of nutrients to river ecosystems and a substantial safety margin of seaward bound smolts to protect against natural variations in circumstances.

The problem appears to lie somewhere in the period of ocean residence, between outmigration and return migration. Ensuring that maximum numbers head to sea will also ensure that maximum possible returns return.

That's just a red herring argument with no basis in fact. It's often argued that hatchery salmon are less competitive than wild salmon because of their inferior genes. If that is true then it could be argued that wild salmon will out compete hatchery salmon. Therefore the Alaskan salmon should have minimal affect on the survival of BC wild salmon.

We should really be looking at the sustainability of fish farming as a whole. Apparently fish farms already consume more than 70% of the world's production of fish oil, with most of the balance being consumed by livestock and poultry. This is putting tremendous pressure on course fish in the ocean. If the fish farms continue raping the ocean this will effect the survival of the course fish as they are not be able to reproduce fast enough.

So i suggest that pointing a finger at the Alaskan way of doing things is pretty hypocritical. In the case of Alaskan salmon at least the released smolts are required to forage and their survival depends on their instincts for survival. In the case of fish farms they hire commercial fishermen to scrape the ocean destroying the eco system and killing everything in their nets in order to sell their catch to the farms which turn around and produce less than a kg of seafood for every 3 kg they scrape out of the ocean.

At least the wild salmon/Alaskan salmon has a respect for the ocean environment allowing it to produce food on a ecologically friendly and sustainable manner. Fish farming unlike livestock or poultry farming is not sustainable.

Just like a gang of midgets, 5 billion of them can knock the stuffing out of 100 million of bigger and stronger ones. The problem comes not from street fights between fish where winner takes all, it comes from predation on the food sources. The sheer numbers of the ranched fish can be in more places all the time and have consequent greater access and greater impact on the food chain. The food chain hasn't evolved to an equilibrium that supports the extra 5 billion. It currently balances in a range that matches natural numbers of wild fish, salmon and otherwise. The ocean isn't a limitless larder. The extra consumption overloads the supply and will eventually push demand to a point where the trophic web can't support it and permanent and irrevocable changes will take place. Once that happens, the web will restabilize at an equilibrium that will include considerably fewer predators at the trophic level salmon work at simply because there is not sufficient feed left to support them. Indeed, that may be the explanation for that at sea disappearance of wild stocks that we are currently experiencing.


It isn't accurate to suggest that in reality, 4 or 5 units of fish are really required to produce one unit of salmon; fish meal does not constitute 100% of the diet but rather closer to 30% with the rest being vegetable products. There is a fish oil component as well, but that is obtained in the meal production process from the same raw material that then becomes meal. Fish products are the most expensive component of fish feed, and though it is critical to the formulation in order to provide specific amino acids, it is of critical importance to the profitability of the industry to utilize the minimum amount that will meet the requirements of the salmon and much research is directed at developing alternate feed compositions that will further reduce that usage.

It also isn't accurate to suggest that fish meal production and fish harvesting has increased to accommodate aquaculture. In fact, world production has remained fairly steady and the percentage derived from waste products of wild fisheries for human consumption has increased steadily to the current level of about 25% suggesting fish harvests for the meal market are actually decreasing. The percentage of total production of fish meal used for all aquaculture, currently in the range of 60%, has increased while the percentage used in other animal feeds and for other purposes has correspondingly declined. Less than 20% of the proportion of the percentage of world supply that is used in the aquaculture sector actually goes into manufacturing salmon feed. There is no new production in order to accommodate salmon farming and there is no new environmental impact as a consequence of increasing salmon production and  those who suggest otherwise are misrepresenting reality.

Read more here:

http://www.iffo.net/downloads/Datasheets%20Publications%20SP/FMFOF2011.pdf (http://www.iffo.net/downloads/Datasheets%20Publications%20SP/FMFOF2011.pdf)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:6kd_eFBlBU4J:www.aquafeed.com/documents/1230754702_1.pdf+fish+meal+production&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi6gOpnt9Ow_8sFD9-2BvtGpojoo6FcGUkQsI2Qo3ewNr_d1lKysLTqZDtkZZ2dFMnQc_MBHNd952KfkvJcdta088_vNI4CM0d3N0YmLhi9wg8SaIVlbhKSgTGHA_KXTl7oc8Dg&sig=AHIEtbTRpHO9N2WqNvLImx0N0eiweDt6iQ (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:6kd_eFBlBU4J:www.aquafeed.com/documents/1230754702_1.pdf+fish+meal+production&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi6gOpnt9Ow_8sFD9-2BvtGpojoo6FcGUkQsI2Qo3ewNr_d1lKysLTqZDtkZZ2dFMnQc_MBHNd952KfkvJcdta088_vNI4CM0d3N0YmLhi9wg8SaIVlbhKSgTGHA_KXTl7oc8Dg&sig=AHIEtbTRpHO9N2WqNvLImx0N0eiweDt6iQ)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 16, 2012, 03:19:51 PM
I understand that you will disagree with any research or science that doesn't support the purity of feedlot fish farming.

I'd respond in detail but this topic should remain on ISAV. Maybe I should start a topic related to the sustainability of fish farming and we can discuss it there.  ???
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 16, 2012, 08:06:11 PM
What you think about their motivation is considerably less important than what actions were taken. Your speculations on motive have a single purpose, and that purpose has nothing to do with fish.

You suggested that we do not need to be worried about the fish farms because their "best practice" already minimizes their impact on wild fish, and I asked, if that is true, why did the government have to issue an Order to get them to fallow during out migrations of wild salmon?  Just answer the question.

Perhaps you should take this up with the DFO then. There is a difference between contributing to, as I have suggested, and being responsible for, as you suggest. The DFO suggested there that farms were probably not responsible but don't suggest that they didn't contribute. Once again, there are many contributing factors to the situation. Arbitrarily ignoring all but the one you are arguing against makes for good rhetoric but poor problem solving.

No, it sounds quite clearly that they are absolving the farms of even contributing to higher lice populations.  I was just wondering aloud.

Again, arbitrarily eliminating those pesky details such as pathogen survival time in the absence of a host, degree and duration of exposure and immune response makes for good rhetoric but it also makes for a poor representation of actual circumstances and actual outcomes.

So a wild salmon can get close enough long enough to the pens to pass pathogens to the farmed fish but other wild salmon cannot get close enough long enough to have the same pathogen passed back once it has grown and multiplied in the confines of the farm?  Seems strange. I wonder if anyone has done a scientific study to prove that?

The diseases that break out on salmon farms are caused by pathogens already in the environment. Farm salmon come from hatcheries and the fish are not exposed to the pathogens until they hit the chuck. A disease outbreaks results from the density induced stress compromised immune response and the extended exposure of infected hosts in extremely close proximity of a large number of potentially susceptible hosts. Should a wild fish come close enough to be exposed to live pathogens, it's own immune response will kick in, and because the fish lives in the same environment as the pathogen, it likely has had previous exposure and consequently has a preprogrammed response that will operate unimpeded by the stress levels that compromised the farm fish immune response. Should that response not be sufficient, it is possible that the fish become clinically infected but because the fish doesn't exist in the close proximity to the large numbers of other fish found in farm pens, the likelihood of infecting other fish is much lower and the chances of an epizootic are extremely low.

Another important factor is the differences in disease susceptibility between the penned fish and the wild stocks. An outbreak is more likely to occur in a species susceptible to a particular pathogen but will have little effect on another species that is resistant to that pathogen. Atlantics and Pacifics have different vulnerabilities; the outbreaks in the penned Atlantics often do not pose any risks to Pacifics because of that fact.



I understand that under normal conditions, that wild fish might have a strong enough immune system to combat the infection, but in the scenario I proposed, the wild fish would be returning to a nearby stream to spawn where its own immune system would be undermined by the stress of spawning and it would be in close proximity to large numbers of other fish so the likelihood of spreading the infection would indeed be high.  This happens all the time already from those "natural" pathogens.  However, this pathogen would also not be the same one it was exposed to in the wild as the bacteria have be exposed to antibacterials and so the wild fish is infected with the biggest and baddest of the bacteria that did not get killed off by the antibiotics.  The wild fishes immune system is going to have a harder time combating that infection so the risk of infection is indeed there.  This really does not seem as far fetched as you imply.


There isn't a whole lot of point in citing statements with a reference to author and date unless you also provide some means of identifying the paper you are citing. The reason that supporting documents are cited is not to make a presentation look as if it is very scientific, rather it gives the reader a chance to examine the source document and determine relevance, adherence to context, methodology and accuracy.

I thought "the world doesn't owe you anything."  A simple search on Google of the reference citation would have turned up this paper: Pål Arne Bjørn, Rolf Sivertsgård, Bengt Finstad, Rune Nilsen, Rosa Maria Serra-Llinares, and Roar Kristoffersen, "Area protection may reduce salmon louse infection risk to wild salmonids," AQUACULTURE ENVIRONMENT INTERACTIONS, Vol. 1, May 30, 2011, pp. 233–244, 2011.  Stop being hypocritical.  This is a blog anyway and is not supposed to be a peer reviewed article.  If I need to provide a bibliography every time I post then so do you.  No wonder why no one else bothers to post.

I haven't claimed anything like what you attribute to me. What I have said is that there is no direct evidence that farms are causing the declines of the wild stocks, that operating with best practices is in the financial interests of the farms and that farms respond to problems as they are identified in a manner that will best mitigate the problem.

Thank you, that was what I wanted five or six posts ago.  It is clear that we are arguing cross purposes then, as I am not arguing that they are the cause for the decline, but are a contributing factor, putting additional stresses on the environment and the fish that live in it.  We can stop arguing now.

The history of the industry in the province has shown that it does not cause the catastrophic damage the reactionaries accuse it of.

No, the history does not show that, the history shows that is causing damage and that the damage is being "managed."  The "catastrophic" damage has not yet been proven conclusively, but then there has not been nearly enough research into the effects of farms here (most of the research of the effects of open pens on the environment and the wild fish has been done in other parts of the world, and as you point out, the conditions here are different enough that studies need to be done here to be really helpful), and the research that has been done here is being called into question instead of being corroborated.  You just keep your fingers crossed for both of us.

It is clear that the industry already supplies substantial benefits; expansion may occur but it will be controlled and regulated and monitored, and it will supply more benefits. You're welcome to disagree with the idea that the costs are greater than the benefits that are obtained, but to be convincing, you need to demonstrate that with facts.

I have done so.  Your criticism is over my inclusion of arguments that point to potential dangers that have not yet materialized, and until they do, the "reactionaries" will not have those "facts" (in the form of documented scientific evidence), unfortunately by the time they have that evidence, many fear it will be too late anyway.  I am still waiting to see those scientific studies that show that farmed Atlantic salmon cannot pass pathogens to wild Pacific salmon.  Surely, if I need to provide proof it can happen, then you need to prove that it cannot.  Simply pointing to the fact that no disease has been found yet in the wild fish surveyed, is not proof, especially when it has been found, but all the energy is directed toward showing that it really had not been found at all.

If you want to do something constructive for the wild stocks, you should be supporting the elimination of the commercial salmon fishery.

You would like that wouldn't you?  Eliminate the only other source of salmon so the farmers can say "Now you do NEED us!"  I have been interested in Commercial fishery reform since the 90s when I wrote an undergraduate paper on the state of the commercial fishery following the Cruikshank Report.  I never said I supported salmon ranching any more than salmon farming.  The salmon ranching just uses a larger pen (the entire ocean) and relies on nature to  raise the fish to harvest once it reaches a suitable size.  The issues are different, but no less troubling than the open pen farms. As a sport fisher I am also intimately aware of my own impact on the salmon and have been involved in various reform initiatives of the sport sector such as quota reductions (eg: annual limit of 20 coho, and lower daily limits of various species), and do not get me started on hatchery programs.  Neither of these, however, are the topic here, which is possibility of the spread of disease to wild fish from open net pens (and I do apologize to AF for hijacking the topic). You guys may get back to it.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 16, 2012, 08:26:03 PM
Your contributions are appreciated Sandman.

As you've said in all sorts of different ways, open net farms are a disaster waiting to happen. Waiting till it happens, as the fish farm proponents suggest, could be too late for our wild salmon!

Thanks for posting!
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 16, 2012, 08:28:18 PM
Foir those that donot have this link and want something to read on a snowy day.

http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/

Interesting that Dr. David Welch as modified his earlier report and now indicates that"

Quote from: Dr David Welch, Cohen Commission Submission December 15, 2011
the primary reason for this submission is to report an important addition to our understanding of where sockeye smolt mortality occurs. In prior testimony at the Commission I reported that most mortality occurred after passing the northern end of Vancouver Island. This statement remains correct. However, we have since re-analyzed our previously collected data to directly compare survival rates of acoustically tagged sockeye smolts migrating in the Strait of Georgia and then in Discovery Passage/Queen Charlotte Strait...This is a very important finding that clarifies and extends my earlier testimony:

1) The results continue to contradict the theory that 2007 sockeye smolts died in the Strait of Georgia, before reaching the area with fish farms; in 2007 smolt survival was substantially lower in the northern area.

2) The lower survival rate the northern area (currently estimated at roughly 2/3rds of the Strait of Georgia survival rate when averaged across all years) would have profound effects on marine survival if prolonged; after 5 weeks smolts would be reduced to only ~1/10th the number that would survive in the Strait of Georgia.

3) This level of higher mortality would be sufficient to fully explain the 10-fold decline in Fraser sockeye survival seen since 1990.

4) We caution that this new result remains a correlation, not proof that the fish farms present in the northern area caused the reduced survival, because the two regions probably differ in other ways (more abundant predators are likely present in the northern region, for example).
 

Another correlation for absolon to chew on.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 16, 2012, 10:45:05 PM
You suggested that we do not need to be worried about the fish farms because their "best practice" already minimizes their impact on wild fish, and I asked, if that is true, why did the government have to issue an Order to get them to fallow during out migrations of wild salmon?  Just answer the question.

I have also said that farms respond as required when new circumstances become apparent. Best practices is not a static concept. The "already" bit
must be more of that frequently applied poetic license.

Quote
So a wild salmon can get close enough long enough to the pens to pass pathogens to the farmed fish but other wild salmon cannot get close enough long enough to have the same pathogen passed back once it has grown and multiplied in the confines of the farm?  Seems strange. I wonder if anyone has done a scientific study to prove that?

Apparently you didn't understand me the first time; that isn't what I suggested. More poetic license? I suggested that there were a number of other factors beyond proximity that have large effect on the outcome and named just a few as examples. I understand that you prefer simple yes/no interpretations but they aren't appropriate for complex subjects.

Quote
I understand that under normal conditions, that wild fish might have a strong enough immune system to combat the infection, but in the scenario I proposed, the wild fish would be returning to a nearby stream to spawn where its own immune system would be undermined by the stress of spawning and it would be in close proximity to large numbers of other fish so the likelihood of spreading the infection would indeed be high.  This happens all the time already from those "natural" pathogens.  However, this pathogen would also not be the same one it was exposed to in the wild as the bacteria have be exposed to antibacterials and so the wild fish is infected with the biggest and baddest of the bacteria that did not get killed off by the antibiotics.  The wild fishes immune system is going to have a harder time combating that infection so the risk of infection is indeed there.  This really does not seem as far fetched as you imply.

As usual, you're leaving out the details. Don't forget, bacteria resistant to antibiotics are found in the substrate, not the water column. Fish are found in the water column, not the substrate. The mutation to resistance doesn't change the genetic signature so the bacteria is still recognized by the immune system. The change in the genetic code causing resistance to antibiotics confers resistance to antibiotics, not superpowers. Some fish may indeed arrive on the spawning ground with some level of infection, but the gametes are formed and can still be deposited. Then the fish dies and rots or washes back down the river. In the spring, a new crop of alevins hatch ready for development and exposure to pathogens in order to develop an immune response and memory. Sure it can happen, but the consequences aren't nearly as dire as you insist they are.

Quote
I thought "the world doesn't owe you anything."  A simple search on Google of the reference citation would have turned up this paper: Pål Arne Bjørn, Rolf Sivertsgård, Bengt Finstad, Rune Nilsen, Rosa Maria Serra-Llinares, and Roar Kristoffersen, "Area protection may reduce salmon louse infection risk to wild salmonids," AQUACULTURE ENVIRONMENT INTERACTIONS, Vol. 1, May 30, 2011, pp. 233–244, 2011.  Stop being hypocritical.  This is a blog anyway and is not supposed to be a peer reviewed article.  If I need to provide a bibliography every time I post then so do you.  No wonder why no one else bothers to post.

I'm not asking you to do my work. I'm asking you to do yours. A simple search on either of your cosmetic citations yields a substantial list of papers that match the search term. One only needs to have the basic courtesy to do the minimum and provide the title to enable a successful search, though most people understand that providing a link is very little additional work since they are already looking at it. Given that this is only a discussion forum and you feel it is a waste of time to provide access information to papers you cite, I have to ask why, if not for strictly cosmetic reasons, you bothered to twice list author and date associated with what you quote in that post in the first place.


Quote
No, the history does not show that, the history shows that is causing damage and that the damage is being "managed."  The "catastrophic" damage has not yet been proven conclusively, but then there has not been nearly enough research into the effects of farms here (most of the research of the effects of open pens on the environment and the wild fish has been done in other parts of the world, and as you point out, the conditions here are different enough that studies need to be done here to be really helpful), and the research that has been done here is being called into question instead of being corroborated.  You just keep your fingers crossed for both of us.

The history of the industry in the province has shown that it does not cause the catastrophic damage the reactionaries accuse it of. Like every single human activity, the industry has impacts and those are managed. There is no legacy of damage, no permanent negative changes.

Quote
I have done so.  Your criticism is over my inclusion of arguments that point to potential dangers that have not yet materialized, and until they do, the "reactionaries" will not have those "facts" (in the form of documented scientific evidence), unfortunately by the time they have that evidence, many fear it will be too late anyway.  I am still waiting to see those scientific studies that show that farmed Atlantic salmon cannot pass pathogens to wild Pacific salmon.  Surely, if I need to provide proof it can happen, then you need to prove that it cannot.  Simply pointing to the fact that no disease has been found yet in the wild fish surveyed, is not proof, especially when it has been found, but all the energy is directed toward showing that it really had not been found at all.

You haven't demonstrated anything with facts. Your concerns are all potential dangers with varying degrees of basis in reality and varying degrees of possibility, not even considering probability. None are even near certainty yet you expect them to be evaluated as if they were certain outcomes and actions taken based on those evaluations.


Quote
You would like that wouldn't you?

What a pointless and yet revealing remark. Second time I've seen it too.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 16, 2012, 11:26:36 PM
I understand that you will disagree with any research or science that doesn't support the purity of feedlot fish farming.

I'd respond in detail but this topic should remain on ISAV. Maybe I should start a topic related to the sustainability of fish farming and we can discuss it there.  ???

That wasn't research or science you posted, and I not only disagree with it, I've proved it to be the BS that it is.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 17, 2012, 08:19:30 PM
As usual, you're leaving out the details. Don't forget, bacteria resistant to antibiotics are found in the substrate, not the water column. Fish are found in the water column, not the substrate. The mutation to resistance doesn't change the genetic signature so the bacteria is still recognized by the immune system. The change in the genetic code causing resistance to antibiotics confers resistance to antibiotics, not superpowers. Some fish may indeed arrive on the spawning ground with some level of infection, but the gametes are formed and can still be deposited. Then the fish dies and rots or washes back down the river. In the spring, a new crop of alevins hatch ready for development and exposure to pathogens in order to develop an immune response and memory. Sure it can happen, but the consequences aren't nearly as dire as you insist they are.

I understand antibacterial resistant bacteria are found in the substrate,  but can that bacteria not move up into the water column by way of the food chain?  Are you suggesting that is not possible?  Are you also suggesting that antibacterial resistant bacteria are not found in the fish themselves?  That the antibiotics given to the fish are able to kill 100% of the bacteria in the infected fish?   This is, of course, the very reason why antibiotics are so problematic.  If even one organism survives the antibiotic treatment (because it is the strongest in the colony) then it reproduces, then the new generation of infection is a stronger strain that requires an even stronger dose to kill it.  Such a colony of stronger bacteria, may indeed be able to overcome the wild fish's natural immune response. If we see this happening in other organisms in other ecosystems, I do not see why it is so far fetched that it might happen in a fish?

I'm not asking you to do my work. I'm asking you to do yours. A simple search on either of your cosmetic citations yields a substantial list of papers that match the search term.

The second hit in that "substantial" list that a Google search of "Bjorn et al. 2011" produced was "Area protection may reduce salmon louse infection risk to wild ..." so you could not figure out that it was probably that one?  Sorry, I obviously gave you more credit than you deserved.   You had implied that I was being lazy when I asked you to provide me with the research papers that you were basing your arguments on.  I at least gave you a citation (in standard APA format) so you could find the article.  In the future, I will provide a full bibliographic citation, hell, I will cut and paste the whole paper for you.

What a pointless and yet revealing remark. Second time I've seen it too.

Isn't it though?  That is the farmer's argument is it not?  Industrialized farmed fish, not wild fish, are the future?  Only an industrialized feed lot is able to meet the needs of the largely European and American consumer, which are responsible for 73% of global farmed salmon consumption (Marine Harvest Salmon Farming Industry Handbook 2010).  That Handbook would also seem to explode the myth of the salmon farm as a source of jobs as well as they state on page 43 in that handbook that "labour cost is a minor part of the total cost [of fish farm production] as much of the production is automated (e.g. feed blowers)."  This is in contrast to commercial fisheries which are more labour intensive (Eagle et al., "Why farm salmon outcompete fishery salmon," Marine Policy 28, 3, 2004) as are the sport salmon fisheries (Ministry of the Environment, "British Columbia's Fisheries and Aquaculture Sector," BC Stats, April 2070).
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 17, 2012, 08:35:10 PM
That wasn't research or science you posted, and I not only disagree with it, I've proved it to be the BS that it is.

Brilliant post.....   ::) 
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 18, 2012, 07:50:32 AM
Concerned that column will mislead the public
  Courier-Islander January 18, 2012   I am concerned that the public will be misled by statements in Ray Grigg's column in the Jan. 13 Courier-Islander, "The Cohen Commission and ISAv Evidence."

In the column, Mr. Grigg wrote, "A study by Dr. Molly Kibenge suggested that ISAv was here in 2004. Despite a UN convention that requires 'evidence or suspicion' of ISAv to be reported, this was never done."

On Dec. 16 at the Cohen Commission hearings, Nellie Gagné, head of the CFIA National Reference Laboratory for ISA, said that sequence analysis of the PCR product that Molly Kibenge generated in her tests of Cultus Lake sockeye salmon were ".non-specific, and the match has nothing to do with any fish. The match is random, mouse, human." and, therefore, was the result of "non-specific amplification" (Dec. 15 transcripts, page 80, lines 35 - 44)."

As part of my work as the BC Ministry of Agriculture's fish pathologist, last fall I reviewed similar results in our diagnostic laboratory from five farmed chinook salmon re-tested for ISAV.

Samples from all five fish yielded a band that was very similar to our ISAV-positive control, but when we sequenced the PCR product to determine its identity, it didn't match anything. The closest match was mouse (see Cohen Commission Exhibit #s 2079 and 2080.)

I view mouse-like results in a test for a salmon virus as evidence of "nonspecific amplification." This means that the test did not work properly and needed to be redone; it is not grounds to report to OIE. The test was repeated several times, and all results were negative - no virus.

Canada is recognized by the OIE for its diligence in following OIE reporting requirements, as confirmed by The Director General of the OIE in a November 29, 2009, letter to Alexandra Morton:

"The OIE is aware that CFIA is investigating reports of ISAV in wild salmon in British Columbia, and I am pleased to say that Canada has complied with OIE requirements for the provision of information that has been available to date."

I agree with Mr. Grigg that regarding infectious salmon anemia in BC, "we don't have disease."

Gary Marty BC Ministry of Agriculture Abbotsford

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 18, 2012, 07:56:31 AM
http://www.canada.com/salmon/6012683/story.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 18, 2012, 08:06:56 AM
I understand antibacterial resistant bacteria are found in the substrate,  but can that bacteria not move up into the water column by way of the food chain?  Are you suggesting that is not possible?  Are you also suggesting that antibacterial resistant bacteria are not found in the fish themselves?  That the antibiotics given to the fish are able to kill 100% of the bacteria in the infected fish?   This is, of course, the very reason why antibiotics are so problematic.  If even one organism survives the antibiotic treatment (because it is the strongest in the colony) then it reproduces, then the new generation of infection is a stronger strain that requires an even stronger dose to kill it.  Such a colony of stronger bacteria, may indeed be able to overcome the wild fish's natural immune response. If we see this happening in other organisms in other ecosystems, I do not see why it is so far fetched that it might happen in a fish?

Yours is an interesting variation on the scientific method where a hypothesis that explains an observed phenomena is developed and then tested. You start with a hypothetical phenomena, construct a hypothetical set of facts, massage them into a semi-plausible scenario that might allow the phenomena to occur and declare your conclusion proved. You'll forgive me if I see little point in arguing the validity of your conclusion.

Quote
The second hit in that "substantial" list that a Google search of "Bjorn et al. 2011" produced was "Area protection may reduce salmon louse infection risk to wild ..." so you could not figure out that it was probably that one?  Sorry, I obviously gave you more credit than you deserved.   You had implied that I was being lazy when I asked you to provide me with the research papers that you were basing your arguments on.  I at least gave you a citation (in standard APA format) so you could find the article.  In the future, I will provide a full bibliographic citation, hell, I will cut and paste the whole paper for you.


Deal with it in any way you like. In my world, a citation consists of a flag on the information quoted that refers to sufficient further information on the source of the quote; the point being to allow the reader to confirm accurate and relevant presentation of the idea embodied in the quote. With your tendency to take poetic license, I consider it both a requirement as well as plain common courtesy to provide complete information so your use of that information can be audited. You still haven't explained why you felt it necessary to add that incomplete citation in a venue where you specifically state it isn't necessary.

Quote
Isn't it though?  That is the farmer's argument is it not?  Industrialized farmed fish, not wild fish, are the future?  Only an industrialized feed lot is able to meet the needs of the largely European and American consumer, which are responsible for 73% of global farmed salmon consumption (Marine Harvest Salmon Farming Industry Handbook 2010).  That Handbook would also seem to explode the myth of the salmon farm as a source of jobs as well as they state on page 43 in that handbook that "labour cost is a minor part of the total cost [of fish farm production] as much of the production is automated (e.g. feed blowers)."  This is in contrast to commercial fisheries which are more labour intensive (Eagle et al., "Why farm salmon outcompete fishery salmon," Marine Policy 28, 3, 2004) as are the sport salmon fisheries (Ministry of the Environment, "British Columbia's Fisheries and Aquaculture Sector," BC Stats, April 2070).

The farmers have never suggested the commercial fishery be shut down, so obviously don't have any arguments on the subject. That was my suggestion and your response.....

Quote
You would like that wouldn't you?  Eliminate the only other source of salmon so the farmers can say "Now you do NEED us!"

.....is a pointless personal comment addressed to me, indicative of the personal animosity you bring to the discussion. Again, based on that, you'll forgive me if I see no need to argue the point.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 18, 2012, 08:07:24 AM
Brilliant post.....   ::) 

Glad you liked it.  ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 18, 2012, 11:23:52 AM
http://www.canada.com/salmon/6012683/story.html

More of CFIA's strategy to convince the public that there is "no problem"??

This strategy is evident in an e-mail from a CFIA executive, Joseph Beres, to his colleagues, congratulating them on a conference call to the media that was intended to quell concerns about allegations of ISAv in BC salmon. "It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour," he writes, "and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokesmen at the Tech Briefing yesterday... Congratulations! One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war also."
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 18, 2012, 11:31:44 AM
af, do you ever tire of posting old information?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 18, 2012, 11:35:34 AM
af, do you ever tire of posting old information?

I don't..... specially when the content is relevant to the topic.  But thanks for asking.  :D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 18, 2012, 11:58:21 AM
Interesting e-mail response that a BC fishing guide recently received from Gary Marty, to an e-mail expressing concern over ISAV. Almost looks like a veiled threat, suggesting if we pursue finding out the truth about ISAV, then they will shut down all sport fishing in BC??



Brian Silversides Fishing McKinlay

Dear Brian,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I admire your passion for wild fish.

When the Pacific herring population in Prince William Sound, Alaska, crashed in 1993 and did not recover, I was called to conduct a comprehensive study to determine the role of disease in limiting recovery. I concluded that a parasite (Ichthyophonus hoferi) and a OIE-reportable virus (VHSV) were limiting recovery (Marty et al. 2010).

The commercial herring fishery there has been closed since 1998.

Consider this scenario:

    1) ISAV is confirmed in BC

    2) Therefore, to protect our stocks all first nations, sport, and commercial salmon fishing must be prohibited indefinitely.

QUESTION: Given this potential result, are you still convinced that ISAV has been confirmed in BC?

Sincerely,
Gary
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 18, 2012, 03:41:00 PM
Could you also post the email the guide sent? I'm curious what question would get that answer.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Bassonator on January 18, 2012, 03:49:34 PM
Must be grasping at straws now.... ;D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 18, 2012, 04:36:36 PM
http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear&day=18&id=49199&l=e&special&ndb=1+target%3D
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 18, 2012, 05:33:11 PM
That wasn't research or science you posted, and I not only disagree with it, I've proved it to be the BS that it is.

Could you also post the email the guide sent? I'm curious what question would get that answer.

.....  yah, I'll get right on that.....   ???  ::)

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 18, 2012, 06:01:30 PM
Thanks
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandman on January 18, 2012, 06:03:32 PM
Yours is an interesting variation on the scientific method where a hypothesis that explains an observed phenomena is developed and then tested. You start with a hypothetical phenomena, construct a hypothetical set of facts, massage them into a semi-plausible scenario that might allow the phenomena to occur and declare your conclusion proved. You'll forgive me if I see little point in arguing the validity of your conclusion.

I am not using the scientific method at all.  I was not positing an experiment nor was I stating a conclusion. I simply asked if the "semi-plausible" scenario was not possible?  If it is possible, it seems like a pretty serious risk to the fish swimming past the pens.  I would love a biologist to test that hypothesis to see if it can happen.  I am sure they would use the scientific method in doing so.
 
You still haven't explained why you felt it necessary to add that incomplete citation in a venue where you specifically state it isn't necessary.

You had asked me to cite my sources, but you had also stated it was the reader's responsibility to find the information themselves.  I was trying to make you happy.  My mistake.

The farmers have never suggested the commercial fishery be shut down, so obviously don't have any arguments on the subject. That was my suggestion and your response . . . is a pointless personal comment addressed to me, indicative of the personal animosity you bring to the discussion.

My comment WAS directed at you.  My comment about the farmers you support was that your suggestion would play into their arguments for why they are a necessity in meeting today's demands for salmon.  Furthermore, please re-read my comments towards you and your comments toward me and another member of the discussion and tell me who brings "personal animosity" to the discussion.  I have been nothing, if not polite and respectful toward you, personally, while I may disagree vehemently with your arguments.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 18, 2012, 06:33:09 PM
.....  yah, I'll get right on that.....   ???  ::)



Actually, no need to bother now.

Apparently there was a second email from Dr.Marty in response to someone questioning his first; I found it at the same place you found the first, posted by the same person. It does give some indication of what prompted the answer. Apparently it was a response to the suggestion that the farm industry should be shut down because they might spread a virus. Here is the body of the email as posted:

Thanks for sharing my thoughts with “tens of thousands of sportfishermen” in their exact context. Informed dialogue is very helpful. If aquaculture facilities are being asked to shut down their operations because they might spread a virus, then it is only prudent that any other activities that might spread the virus must also be shut down. To be clear, I was only offering a scenario, not a recommendation. Because of these potential implications, however, I hope that you will agree with me that we need to be very sure that ISAV positive PCR tests are confirmed, and we need to be very sure about whether what is being found is minor or major.



My next question to consider:



“On what basis are you concerned about ISAV in Pacific salmon?”



Here is the information that I use:



1. The first word of the title of Molly Kibenge’s draft manuscript regarding her ISAV PCR findings in BC Pacific salmon is “Asymptomatic” (= no disease). [Cohen Exhibit #]. It is quite common for fish (and people) to have virus but not have a disease.

2. When Dr. Kristi Miller reported ISAV positive PCR results in farmed Chinook salmon, she made it very clear that “There's no indication that it's causing disease” [December 15 Cohen transcripts, p. 53, lines 9 - 16]. I am the histopathologist that examined samples from the fish tested by Dr. Miller on the Creative salmon case, and I agree with Dr. Miller [see Cohen Exhibit # 2078]

3. Dr. Fred Kibenge isolated an eastern Canadian strain of ISAV from farmed coho salmon in Chile in 1999 (Kibenge et al. 2001), but the fish did not have clinical signs characteristic of ISA, and ISAV was not confirmed in the affected tissues; instead, the fish had a disease characterized by jaundice that continues to occur in Chile without any evidence of ISAV (Smith et al. 2006), supporting Dr. Kibenge’s conclusion that his ISAV findings in 1999 “might have been coincidental” (Cohen Exhibit #2086). The eastern Canadian strain of ISAV was never again found in Chile.

4. When Pacific salmon species were exposed to one of two strains of ISAV during controlled laboratory experiments, “No signs typical of ISA and no ISAV-related mortality occurred among any of the groups of Oncorhynchus spp. in either experiment (Rolland & Winton 2003).”

5. In 2008, the European strain of ISAV was widespread among farmed Atlantic salmon in Chile. Annual production of farmed coho salmon in Chile is greater than annual production of all species of farm salmon in BC. None of the Chilean coho salmon contracted ISA [December 19 Cohen transcripts, p. 53, lines 30 - 41].



The evidence in the peer-reviewed scientific literature and the Cohen Commission proceedings supports the conclusion that known and suspect strains of ISAV are not a major threat to wild Pacific salmon.



ISA is an Atlantic salmon disease, not a Pacific salmon disease. I remain confident that we do not have imported strains of ISAV in either our farmed Atlantic salmon or farmed/wild Pacific salmon. I am awaiting confirmatory evidence regarding some preliminary evidence that a native ISAV-like virus occurs in BC.



When VHSV (it causes a different OIE-reportable disease) was first isolated from hatcheries in the State of Washington in 1989, people were very concerned that it might be an imported strain. Today, however, we know that the 1989 finding was actually a native strain that is not a great concern to Pacific salmon species.



Sincerely,



Gary

-------------------------------------------------------------
Gary D. Marty, Fish Pathologist
Animal Health Centre
Ministry of Agriculture
1767 Angus Campbell Rd.
Abbotsford, BC, V3G 2M3
604-556-3123



Literature cited:

Kibenge FSB, Garate ON, Johnson G, Arriagada R, Kibenge MJT, Wadowska D (2001) Isolation and identification of infectious salmon anaemia virus (ISAV) from Coho salmon in Chile. Dis. Aquat. Org. 45:9-18



Rolland JB, Winton JR (2003) Relative resistance of Pacific salmon to infectious salmon anaemia virus. J. Fish Dis. 26:511-520



Smith PA, Larenas J, Contreras J, Cassigoli J, Venegas C, Rojas ME, Guajardo A, Perez S, Diaz S (2006) Infectious haemolytic anaemia causes jaundice outbreaks in seawater-cultured coho salmon, Oncorhynchus kisutch (Walbaum), in Chile. J. Fish Dis. 29:709-715
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 18, 2012, 07:11:00 PM
Thanks

Now that is the most respectful, understandable and well written contribution you've made to this thread!  ;D

Didn't know you had it in you...  :o
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 18, 2012, 07:20:55 PM
Globe and Mail

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/judge-tosses-fish-farm-critics-bid-to-cast-alleged-libel-as-industry-wide-critique/article2307428/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 18, 2012, 11:41:56 PM
Now that is the most respectful, understandable and well written contribution you've made to this thread!  ;D

Didn't know you had it in you...  :o

Probably the first one you completely understood too  ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 19, 2012, 08:21:32 AM

Don after day 1.

http://youtu.be/y2eHF38C4wQ
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 19, 2012, 10:18:12 AM
http://www2.canada.com/westerly/news/upfront/story.html?id=89eca946-7aee-4941-86ea-1497f6199817
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 20, 2012, 01:40:29 PM
With thanks to Ironnoggin who posted this elsewhere............

Here are some further responses from Dr. Gary Marty with respect to that email conversation that AF posted but a small piece of. It makes for some interesting reading and certainly refutes some of the ideas that have been proposed by a few here in this thread:

"Here are some thoughts on the questions in your e-mail:

Are you trying to say that ISAv cannot mutate and affect our wild salmon?

Nearly all viruses can mutate, and some of those mutations are more pathogenic than others, but I am not aware of any scientific research that demonstrates the number or type of mutations that would be required for ISAV (an Atlantic salmon disease) to kill Pacific salmon. If you are aware of such scientific research, please send me the citation.

More important than the basic potential for mutation is the risk that such a mutation of sufficient magnitude to affect wild salmon might actually occur. Based on 25 years of empirical evidence, I rate the risk negligible. Infectious salmon anaemia has been known as a disease of farmed Atlantic salmon in Norway since the mid-1980s, but despite ongoing outbreaks among the farmed salmon ISAV has never been associated with a die-off of wild Atlantic salmon. In 2011 farm salmon production in Norway for the first time exceeded 1 million tonnes (about 12 times BC farm salmon production), and ISAV does not seem to be significantly limiting their production under much greater concentration of fish than we have in BC. If under these conditions ISAV does not affect wild Atlantic salmon, the risk is significantly less to wild Pacific salmon.

To get an better understanding of the potential risk of ISAV to wild salmon, we can look even broader at a related virus, avian influenza virus. Whenever we sample wild ducks in Canada, it is quite common to find 10 - 20% PCR positive for avian influenza virus (see p. 14 of “CCWHC Annual Report 2010 - 2011 (EN)”at http://www.ccwhc.ca/annual_reports.php). Occasionally one of these strains gets into our farmed chicken population, mutates, and causes devastating losses for the industry (e.g., 2004 in the Fraser Valley). Because avian influenza has the potential to mutate and infect people, the CFIA response to specific strains of avian influenza in poultry is rapid and vigorous (i.e., kill all potentially exposed birds).

Despite avian influenza (the virus) being common in wild ducks, outbreaks of avian influenza (the disease) in wild birds are rare. Indeed, most PCR positive test results in wild bird surveys come from healthy birds. I asked our poultry extension veterinarian (Dr. Bill Cox) ,our avian pathologist (Dr. Vicki Bose), and our veterinary virologist (Dr. John Robinson) if they knew of any populations of wild birds that had gone extinct as a result of an avian influenza outbreak; they could not think of any cases. A probable reason for this is that wild birds are more widely dispersed than farmed birds, thereby decreasing the chances for disease transfer. The same can be said for wild salmon compared with farmed salmon.

Chickens are not native to BC (they are native to Asia), their farms displace habitat that once was used by other wildlife, and yet we do not call on poultry farmers to remove them from land (e.g., to rear them in sealed underwater marine pens where they will have no contact with surface freshwater ducks).

The relevance of all this to wild salmon is that even a mutated form of a virus is unlikely to affect wild salmon populations because wild salmon spend most of their lives dispersed more widely than farmed salmon. This makes transmission of any virus difficult. In contrast, a mutated virus is more likely to affect farmed salmon. We have more than 30 million farmed salmon in BC marine waters at any given time--all monitored daily by farm staff--yet we have no evidence of a massive disease outbreak since the IHNV outbreaks of 2002/2003. As with poultry, I am confident that the biosecurity measures used by farms to protect their fish against an outbreak of IHNV will also serve to protect farm fish and wild fish from spreading outbreaks of other diseases like ISAV.

What benefit besides purely financial there is to raising these fish in waters that are normally only inhabited by pacific salmon?

In many ways, BC is an ideal place for rearing Atlantic salmon on farms. Atlantic salmon are not able to compete with Pacific salmon populations. Therefore, fish that escape from farms are easily identified, they do not interbreed with wild Pacific salmon, and despite years of concerted stocking efforts by DFO in the 1900s, Atlantic salmon have not established populations in BC rivers. Also, none of our common domestic livestock are native to BC: cattle (Europe), sheep (Europe and Asia), pigs (Middle East), turkeys (NE U.S.A, and Mexico), or goats (Iran, Scandinavia). I do not see the risk of farm fish to wild fish any differently than the risk of terrestrial livestock to wild life: a negligible risk that can be reasonably managed.

Moving farm animals around the world is nothing new or unusual. We have protocols in place to minimize the risk of disease transfer with these movements, to the point that now the OIE considers the movement of animal goods as a significant risk: “People and goods now travel long distances in a very short time, thus creating enormous challenges that demand efficiency and speed of response on the part of both public health and veterinary authorities.” [see OIE, http://www.oie.int/current-issues/ “Notification of animal and human diseases: Global legal basis”]

My “thought question” for the day: If fish farms need to be removed because of the risk of ISAV, should we also prohibit people coming to BC from around the world, catching fish infected with ISAV, then traveling back home with those infected tissues?

[background: Dr. Kristi Miller reported to the Cohen Commission (Dec. 15, 2011 transcript, pages 35, 36, and 52) that she has found ISAV in most salmon populations that she has tested, including sockeye salmon dating back as far as 1986. In most groups she has tested 13 - 20% are positive for ISAV.]

Sincerely,
Gary"


and:

"Thank you. You might not know that I have more scientific publications about the health of wild Pacific salmon than I do on farmed Atlantic salmon (my cv is Cohen Exhibit #1659). I have proposed a study plan that would help us understand the role of health and disease in Fraser River Sockeye salmon (Cohen public submission 818). And, I recently signed on as the histopathologist for the project with similar goals designed by David Welch; this study focuses specifically on the impact of salmon farms (Cohen Public submission #1127); Dr. Kristi Miller is a co-investigator on that proposal. Dr. Miller and I scrutinize each others’ work, as good scientists should, but in my view good scrutiny serves to improve our science. Dr. Miller’s research so far suggests the presence of an ISAV-like virus that is different enough from European strains of ISAV that we can be confident that it was not imported (with either farm fish since the 1980s or stocking attempts before that). However, Dr. Miller still has lots of work to do to confirm her findings."

I admire your wiliness to learn more. I am currently examining wild juvenile salmon captured as part of the BAMP program in the Broughton Archipelago (see http://bamp.ca/pages/home.html). The Animal Health Centre is interested in ensuring healthy animals in BC, including wild salmon. I need to spend most of my time in the laboratory, so I depend on observations by people like you who are out in the field. Sampling tissues for histopathology is probably the best way to get an idea of what is going on in the fish you described. If you are in Campbell River, I recommend that you contact Dr. Sonja Saksida at the Centre for Aquatic Health Sciences (http://www.cahs-bc.ca/) for assistance in tissue preservation and shipping. Your cost is the same as what we charge the fish farms: $30/fish for diagnostic histopathology.

Dr. Saksida and I are coauthors on a paper that came out last week that identifies liver cell abnormalities as a possible cause of the lowest pink salmon runs on record in the Broughton Archipelago (in 2008).

I am working with DFO to get a second fish pathologist in BC. I keep too busy assisting the fish farms with diagnosing disease and certifying fish as disease-free (with ~40 million fish, a few a bound to be sick; but, surprisingly to many people, most of the farm fish are very healthy), so I do not have the time I need to work on wild fish projects. Any assistance you can provide would help.




Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Dave on January 20, 2012, 03:26:36 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 20, 2012, 03:28:36 PM
With thanks to Ironnoggin who posted this elsewhere............

Here are some further responses from Dr. Gary Marty with respect to that email conversation that AF posted but a small piece of.


Absolon, I hope you aren't implying that I posted only part of an email conversation, purposely leaving out the emails you posted..... because you know that the one I posted was the only one available when I posted it.

In Gary Marty's subsequent e-mails he appears to have backed down from his arrogant attitude, probably because he was made aware that his initial email was being circulated on a number of fishing forums. It's obvious that at that point he put on his salmon farming PR hat and lost the attitude...... I'm sure there is some truth in what he wrote, it's just that it's difficult sorting out the fish farm rhetoric from the facts....

The following article seems to refute your's, Gary Marty's, CFIA's and DFO's (the fish farm industry in general) stance that ISAV is only detrimental to Atlantic salmon and doesn't affect wild salmon. Of course the fish farm industry would be well aware of this publication. But then I guess the denial is just part of the PR campaign to "win the war". Science seems to be pretty irrelevant when it doesn't fit the industries agenda.

BC Fish feedlots are saying that ISAv does not affect Coho. Perhaps they should read this paper.

http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v45/n1/p9-18/ (http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v45/n1/p9-18/)
full text in PDF format
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/45/d045p009.pdf (http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/45/d045p009.pdf)

Isolation and identification of infectious salmon anaemia virus (ISAV) from Coho salmon in Chile

Frederick S. B. Kibenge1,*, Oscar N. Gárate2, Gerald Johnson1, Roxana Arriagada4, Molly J. T. Kibenge2, Dorota Wadowska3


Department of Pathology and Microbiology,
AVC Inc., and
EM Laboratory, Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island, 550 University Ave., Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island C1A 4P3, Canada
Aquatic Health Chile Ltda, Benavente 952, Puerto Montt, Chile
*E-mail: kibenge@upei.ca

ABSTRACT: The isolation of infectious salmon anaemia virus (ISAV) from asymptomatic wild fish species including wild salmon, sea trout and eel established that wild fish can be a reservoir of ISAV for farmed Atlantic salmon. This report characterizes the biological properties of ISAV isolated from a disease outbreak in farmed Coho salmon in Chile and compares it with ISAV isolated from farmed Atlantic salmon in Canada and Europe. The virus that was isolated from Coho salmon tissues was initially detected with ISAV-specific RT-PCR (reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction). The ability of the virus to grow in cell culture was poor, as cytopathology was not always conspicuous and isolation required passage in the presence of trypsin. Virus replication in cell culture was detected by RT-PCR and IFAT (indirect fluorescent antibody test), and the virus morphology was confirmed by positive staining electron microscopy. Further analysis of the Chilean virus revealed similarities to Canadian ISAV isolates in their ability to grow in the CHSE-214 cell line and in viral protein profile. Sequence analysis of genome segment 2, which encodes the viral RNA polymerase PB1, and segment 8, which encodes the nonstructural proteins NS1 and NS2, showed the Chilean virus to be very similar to Canadian strains of ISAV. This high sequence similarity of ISAV strains of geographically distinct origins illustrates the highly conserved nature of ISAV proteins PB1, NS1 and NS2 of ISAV. It is noteworthy that ISAV was associated with disease outbreaks in farmed Coho salmon in Chile without corresponding clinical disease in farmed Atlantic salmon. This outbreak, which produced high mortality in Coho salmon due to ISAV, is unique and may represent the introduction of the virus to a native wild fish population or a new strain of ISAV.


Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: absolon on January 20, 2012, 03:54:50 PM
Well done AF! I am clear that you posted all that was available at the time and that you weren't editing. After seeing one of the emails sent to Marty that resulted in his responses, I'm surprised he responded in such a civil manner to some very ignorant attacks on his integrity by someone obviously very ill informed.

The conclusion to the paper you link to bears reading:



......It is not known when and how ISAV was introduced into Coho salmon in Chile. ISAV can infect a wide range of fishes (Nylund et al. 1994, 1995, 1997), but in wild fish species, it usually produces an asymptomatic infection (Nylund et al. 1999). Within Norway, Scotland and the Canadian east coast considered the normal geographic distribution), ISAV has been documented to cause disease outbreaks only in marine farmed Atlantic salmon. Wild fish with virus but no disease are common (Nylund et al. 1999, Devold et al. 2000), suggesting that asymptomatic or mild infection usually occurs among wild fish in those regions. Similarly, substantial virulence in any other farmed fish species has not been reported. Therefore, an outbreak producing high mortality in Coho salmon is unusual for ISAV and may represent introduction from a native wild fish population or a new strain of ISAV. In both of these cases, migratory wild fish and importation of commercial fish eggs may play important roles in the natural transmission cycles.

Also worth noting is that the virus discussed in the paper didn't affect Atlantics and is related to the North American strain. The particular strain hasn't been isolated again in Chile; the 2007 outbreak was associated with the European strain of the ISAV, and while it affected farmed Atlantics, it wasn't reported in the farmed coho. More detailed information in the link below:

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/infectious_salmon_anemia.pdf (http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/infectious_salmon_anemia.pdf)
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 22, 2012, 09:26:22 PM
May interest some, from facebook.

Excellent Environment Minister Erik Solheim – brave man - you're on track!

In a debate in Norway’s parliament January 19th, Mr Solheim compared today’s salmon industry to be in the same situation the heavy industry faced in the 70s. An increasingly strong opinion at that time, forced the heavy industry to take the challenges seriously and to stop finding excuses why not doing something about indu...strial pollution. Instead the industry used their creativity to solve challenges. Industrial pollution is in fact no longer a problem to talk about in the western world

This should be a guideline for today’s aquaculture industry. Instead of using energy to find some professor somewhere in the world who can create doubt that there are genuine environmental problems in the industry, one should rather do something.
Question that the industry must address are lice, escapes, and the immediate emissions from plants. The whole discussion in the parliament is her in norwegian, google translate might work good enough to get a brief picture on this:
http://www.stortinget.no/no/Saker-og-publikasjoner/Publikasjoner/Referater/Stortinget/2011-2012/120119/
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 22, 2012, 09:37:32 PM
From the Globe and Mail.

Free speech
Writers want Ottawa to let scientists ‘speak for themselves’
MARK HUME | Columnist profile | E-mail
VANCOUVER— From Monday's Globe and Mail
Published Sunday, Jan. 22, 2012 8:10PM EST
Last updated Sunday, Jan. 22, 2012 8:49PM EST
 
  Last year, Kathryn O’Hara, then president of the Canadian Science Writers’ Association, wrote an extraordinary letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the leaders of the other national parties.

In that document – remarkable because it was written in a leading democracy not a paranoid dictatorship – she pleaded with government to unshackle its scientists by allowing them to speak freely with the media.

More related to this story
•Researcher suggests ‘salmon leukemia’ is to blame for decline of Fraser sockeye
•Mysterious infection is killing B.C. salmon
•Something fishy about scallop farm?
The CSWA represents more than 500 science journalists, publicists and authors in Canada. Ms. O’Hara recounted a series of incidents that occurred during the year leading up to her letter in which requests for interviews with researchers had been bluntly refused by public affairs handlers, or thwarted by them through endless bureaucratic delays.

Kristina Miller, a Department of Fisheries and Oceans scientist who has done groundbreaking work on emerging salmon diseases on the West Coast, was one of those who was denied permission to talk to the media, even though her research had just been published in the prestigious international journal, Science.

The government’s stifling of Dr. Miller was so extreme that she was even told by DFO officials not to attend workshops at which experts were discussing salmon issues, out of fear media might attend and hear what she had to say.

“We urge you to free the scientists to speak – be it about state of ice in the Arctic, dangers in the food supply, nanotechnology, salmon viruses, radiation monitoring, or how much the climate will change,” Ms. O’Hara wrote. “Take off the muzzles and eliminate the script writers and allow scientists – they do have PhDs after all – to speak for themselves.”

The government did not change its policy. The standard operating procedure still requires that all media requests for interviews be vetted through public affairs officials in Ottawa. Sometimes, scientists are cleared to speak – often they are not.

Contrast that with the “scientific integrity policy” adopted last month by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in the United States.

NOAA’s new guidelines – which make it clear scientists can speak about their work any time, to anyone – flowed from a memo President Barack Obama sent to the heads of executive departments in 2009. In that missive, he affirmed his support for transparency in government and urged directors to foster a culture of scientific integrity.

“The public must be able to trust the science and scientific process informing public policy decisions,” he wrote.

“Science, and public trust in science, thrives in an environment that shields scientific data and analyses from inappropriate political influence,” John Holdren, assistant to the President for science and technology stated in a later memo. He said the purpose of the initiative was to “strengthen the actual and perceived credibility of government research.”

NOAA’s response is an explicit policy that states “scientists may speak freely with the media and public about scientific and technical matters based on their official work without approval from the public-affairs office or their supervisors.”

Policy guidelines inform staff that if they wish to go beyond talking about their research, and express opinion, they have two choices. They can submit statements of opinion to NOAA’s legal and legislative affairs staff which may, after a lengthy process, issue it as government policy. Or they can simply put on the record that they are speaking as individuals.

“We all have the right to express our opinions publicly on our own time as private citizens. … Thus, your second option is that you will just need to provide a disclaimer indicating you are expressing your opinion and not the opinion of NOAA,” the agency guidelines state.

Talk about being unshackled. All a scientist has to do to express a personal view related to his or her research is to say, “this is my opinion, not government policy.”

The policy is now in force in the U.S.

In Canada, government scientists who want to talk to the media still have to get permission from public-relations officials, who can silence anyone they want.

As Mr. Obama made clear, such an approach calls into question the integrity of science – and the credibility of government
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 22, 2012, 10:21:57 PM
Thanks for posting that Chris!

The aquaculture industry needs to be absolutely transparent if they want to attain any sort of credibility with the public. DFO and CFIA must allow their scientists to speak freely about the science they are doing and the results of the tests without first sending it through their public relations department. The farms need to allow scientists like Miller access, so that they can test the farmed fish. Disease reporting for the farms must be mandatory and made available to the public. The public must be aware of not only what the farms are doing to the environment, but exactly what they are eating when they eat a farmed salmon.

Without transparency you can only assume the worst, because why else would they be hiding the information? Hearing that CFIA is waging a war of PR battles suggests they care about the feedlots a whole lot more than they care about wild salmon. Hearing the pro farmers suggesting we should trust them, because their science says everything is ok....   well how naive do they think we are?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 23, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
http://wildernesscommittee.org/press_release/wilderness_committee_challenges_salmon_farmers_association_spin
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: Sandy on January 23, 2012, 02:52:25 PM
Thanks for posting that Chris!

The aquaculture industry needs to be absolutely transparent if they want to attain any sort of credibility with the public. DFO and CFIA must allow their scientists to speak freely about the science they are doing and the results of the tests without first sending it through their public relations department. The farms need to allow scientists like Miller access, so that they can test the farmed fish. Disease reporting for the farms must be mandatory and made available to the public. The public must be aware of not only what the farms are doing to the environment, but exactly what they are eating when they eat a farmed salmon.

Without transparency you can only assume the worst, because why else would they be hiding the information? Hearing that CFIA is waging a war of PR battles suggests they care about the feedlots a whole lot more than they care about wild salmon. Hearing the pro farmers suggesting we should trust them, because their science says everything is ok....   well how naive do they think we are?



pretty well my thoughts, especially so, the first paragraph. As for CFIA sounds like they have a couple Homeland Security wannabees in the mix instead of scientist/inspectors who are focusing on what is safe and what is not within the food industry.

You only need Spin Doctors if you are up to no good. Transparency is fair to all, it not like this is a national security issue!

They (CFIA) are duty bound to tell the general public what is in our food, all food!
What will happen when folks start buying farmed fish and sending the purchase to a lab for analysis?
Is the lab allowed to actually report back to us?
What if an angler catches a fish and legally keeps said fish, and sends it to a lab for testing of disease and chemicals? is that allowed?
What if analysis of the bought fish has elevated or even unsafe levels of dangerous chemical/s ? what then?
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 25, 2012, 07:44:58 PM
http://www.intl-ecogen.com/newspaper.html
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: IronNoggin on January 26, 2012, 07:01:32 PM
Background info to dangers of Importing Salmon Eggs for Fish Farms

The paper trail is growing that will prove the folly of net pen salmon farms!

Editor's note: In a letter to the editor in Wednesday's Courier-Islander Dr. Ian Alexander, Executive Director, Canadian Food Inspection Agency made the following statement: "I want to be very clear, that to date no trace of ISA has been detected in B.C. salmon."

Also, in another letter to the editor in Wednesday's Courier-Islander, Gary Marty, BC Ministry of Agriculture, made the following statement: "As part of my work as the BC Ministry of Agriculture's fish pathologist, last fall I reviewed... results in our diagnostic laboratory from five farmed chinook salmon re-tested for ISAV.

"Samples from all five fish yielded a band that was very similar to our ISAV-positive control, but when we sequenced the PCR product to determine its identity, it didn't match anything. The closest match was mouse (see Cohen Commission Exhibit #s 2079 and 2080.)
"I view mouse-like results in a test for a salmon virus as evidence of "nonspecific amplification." This means that the test did not work properly and needed to be redone; it is not grounds to report to OIE. The test was repeated several times, and all results were negative - no virus.")

The source of the suspected infectious salmon anemia virus (ISAv) that was reported to be found in BC's wild salmon would have almost certainly from imported Atlantic salmon eggs, the international trade that at one time provided coastal salmon farms with most of their stock. The salmon farming industry, of course, says that ISAv is not here, although evidence given at the Cohen Commission's extraordinary three days of hearings on Dec. 15, 16 and 19 suggests otherwise.

Of four labs testing for ISAv in wild fish samples, the only one seemingly unable to find it is the Canadian Food Inspection Agency's facility in Moncton, New Brunswick, that used degraded tissue samples.

Research tests by a reputable lab in 2004 found 100 per cent infection in Cultus Lake sockeye - inexplicably never pursued by federal agencies responsible for the health of wild salmon. Testimony from Dr. Kristi Miller showing genomic markers in archaic samples of BC wild salmon indicates that ISAv has been here since 1986.

Documents presented at the Cohen Commission suggest that the possible arrival of ISAv coincides with the early importation of Atlantic salmon eggs to West Coast salmon farms. Supporting this connection is a recorded litany of warnings from experts in BC's Ministry of Environment (MOE) and the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO), all alarmed about the inherent danger of importing exotic diseases to the West Coast ecology through Atlantic salmon eggs. This evidence is worth noting.

. 1982: representatives of Canada's government meet with Norwegian and Canadian business interests to consider "alternative approaches to inspection and certification of salmon culture facilities" for the importation of Atlantic salmon material from Norway.

. 1984: Canada's DFO approves limited importation of Atlantic salmon material, an event that is not announced publicly.

. 1985: 300,000 eggs are imported, subject to a "Draft Importation of Salmonids Policy" requiring a 12-month quarantine. But Dave Narver of MOE expresses concern to his Assistant Deputy Minister about the policy.

"I am getting increasingly anxious about our importing of Atlantic eggs," he wrote. "My concern is shared by many of my colleagues in both provincial and federal agencies. The fish health measures agreed to jointly by DFO and ourselves in the fall of 1984 are not foolproof. They are based on statistical sampling, so we are taking a risk when it comes to the introductions of virus. That means a risk to the nearly one-billion-dollar wild salmonid fisheries of British Columbia." An additional 130,000 Atlantic salmon eggs are imported from Scotland.

.1986: Narver reiterates his concerns to Pacific Aqua Foods about an unsigned and non-public policy. "We are deeply concerned with the fact that the risk of exotic diseases is dependent on both the number of imports and their size. Government has made a commitment to support aquaculture, but surely not at the risk of a nearly $1 billion resource in the wild salmon fisheries of British Columbia. The direction the aquaculture industry wants us to go will insure that we import unwanted diseases that can impact on government hatcheries and " wild stocks.

Narver sends a similar letter of concern to Stolt Sea Farm Canada Inc.

"To start with a general comment, I am disappointed with what appears to be the prevailing attitude of a number of companies, that fish health regulations to protect wild stocks are great, but if we continue the way the aquaculture industry seems to dictate, we can expect to introduce new diseases." 1,144,000 eggs are imported from Scotland.

. 1987: Federal-Provincial Policy for the Importation of Live Salmonids is signed, but quarantine time is reduced to four months to reduce the industry's cost of dealing with waste water.

Pat Chamut of DFO expresses a trade concern. "If challenged in court over denial of any imports, what is the legal likelihood we would be successful in denying imports?"

1,281,000 eggs are imported from Scotland and Washington State.

. 1990: Salmon farmers in the US claim Canada's import restrictions are a trade barrier. Chamut reiterates his concerns to the Policy Division of Pacific Rim and Trade. "Continued large-scale introductions from areas of the world including Washington State, Scotland, Norway and even eastern Canada would eventually result in the introduction of exotic disease agents of which the potential impact on both cultured and wild salmonids in BC could be both biologically damaging to the resource and economically devastating to its user groups."

. 1991: Numerous warnings are written by DFO and MOE officials, all concerning the dangers of importing diseases from foreign salmon eggs - a danger compounded by trade agreements allowing the salmon farming industry to import larger numbers of eggs. Narver's letter from MOE to DFO is typical for 1991. "The proposed revisions not only open the window indefinitely but essentially allow for unlimited numbers of eggs. I know your Department argues that this has to done to avoid a Free Trade ruling."

Subsequent to these warnings comes a 1991 letter from BC Packers' Director of Aquaculture to DFO. "As we have no other disease-free source available [other than Iceland] anywhere in the world, I am requesting that you reconsider your position, particularly in the light of the expected change in the DFO regulations." Regulations are duly relaxed and from 1991 to 2010 at least 23 million eggs are imported into BC waters, mostly from sources other than Iceland.

This evidence from the Cohen Commission indicated that international sources of eggs could be diseased and that the aquaculture industry wanted to import eggs, despite the risks.

Given trade agreements and the political leverage of the salmon farming industry to reduce precautionary regulations - the direction it "seems to dictate," in Dave Narver's damning words - the arrival of ISAv and other exotic diseases in BC's marine ecology is inevitable.
© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on January 27, 2012, 08:16:21 AM
http://www.canada.com/Cohen+Commission+Following+traces/6060133/story.html (http://www.canada.com/Cohen+Commission+Following+traces/6060133/story.html)

The Cohen Commission: Following traces
By Ray Grigg, Special to Courier-IslanderJanuary 27, 2012

So, why did salmon farmers not find ISAv in their testing of more than 4,700 samples of farmed fish? The sole veterinarian testing their fish was Dr. Gary Marty, who noted more than 1,100 instances of lesions that were commensurate with ISAv, but he always recorded negative results for the viral infection. The industry, therefore, could confidently announce, as it frequently did, "that the ISA virus has never been found in British Columbia" (Times-Colonist, Dec. 16/11).

McDade and Glowaki explain this puzzle. First, not all ISAv strains are lethal so salmon farms might not notice high mortality. Like an influenza, it can exist as a low level infection that only becomes virulent when it mutates - particularly in high population densities at fish farms and hatcheries. But ISAv does impair fish health - especially wild fish in stressful survival conditions - and it leaves identifiable cellular markers. This is what the genomic specialists Drs. Kristi Miller, Fredrick Kibenge and Are Nylund found in their independent sampling of wild salmon tissue.

Was the salmon farming industry concealing evidence of ISAv? Not exactly. The following is the McDade and Glowaki technical explanation:

"The evidence is now clear that Dr. Marty was conducting PCR tests with no confirmed validity. His PCR test was developed in-house, by a master's student. This methodology used a primer that was different from that approved by the OIE or by the Moncton lab. It was a primer that had never been through the validation process, nor even apparently a peer-reviewed publication.
Dr. Kibenge testified that in his opinion this test would not be sensitive to finding ISA." So the "self-invented" test had no validity and "in our respectful submission, this 'non-disclosure' is tantamount to deliberate deception."
DFO had chosen to be "willfully blind" by relying only on the invalid testing of this single lab, and the CFIA was contented to avoid the complexities of discovering ISAv, no such disease was ever found by anyone responsible for detecting it.



Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on January 30, 2012, 08:13:47 AM
http://youtu.be/yKfMN6B1dMU
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on February 17, 2012, 12:52:49 PM
Cooke Aquaculture responds quickly to suspicion of virus
February 17, 2012
Cooke Aquaculture has humanely euthanized two cages of fish in Nova Scotia
after routine testing raised suspicion of the Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) virus.
This voluntary action is considered as a proactive fish health management
strategy employed by salmon farmers around the world, one that has been taken
by Cooke Aquaculture after thorough risk evaluation.
On Feb 10th, 2012 the suspicion of ISA was raised during routine fish health
surveillance and testing at a salmon farm in Nova Scotia.
Infectious Salmon Anemia (ISA) is a naturally occurring virus that spreads slowly
and is present in wild fish in many parts of the world, including eastern Canada
and the United States. Because ISA is present in the natural environment,
salmon farmers have learned to manage it over many years.
The presence of ISA has NOT been confirmed and the Canadian Food
Inspection Agency is continuing its testing. While ISA is harmful to salmon, it
poses no risks to human health.
While this is only a suspect case of ISA, Cooke has taken the extremely
proactive fish health approach of euthanizing the affected fish immediately rather
than waiting for further testing results by the CFIA, which could take several
weeks.
Quick voluntary action on issues of a fish health nature is a standard operating
procedure for Cooke Aquaculture and these measures go above and beyond
regulatory requirements. These actions are viewed as extremely positive and
proactive measures in terms of animal welfare and virus control.
The suspect fish will not be sold for human consumption even though they pose
no human health risk. They have been disposed of in an approved manner in
compliance with the Province of Nova Scotia and CFIA
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on February 17, 2012, 04:02:29 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16861468


17 February 2012 Last updated at 12:09 ET

Canadian government is 'muzzling its scientists'
By Pallab Ghosh
 
Science correspondent, BBC News, Vancouver
  
The Canadian government has been accused of "muzzling" its scientists.

Speakers at a major science meeting being held in Canada said communication of vital research on health and environment issues is being suppressed.

But one Canadian government department approached by the BBC said it held the communication of science as a priority.

Prof Thomas Pedersen, a senior scientist at the University of Victoria, said he believed there was a political motive in some cases.

"The Prime Minister (Stephen Harper) is keen to keep control of the message, I think to ensure that the government won't be embarrassed by scientific findings of its scientists that run counter to sound environmental stewardship," he said.

I suspect the federal government would prefer that its scientists don't discuss research that points out just how serious the climate change challenge is."”
Professor Thomas Pedersen
 
University of Victoria
 "I suspect the federal government would prefer that its scientists don't discuss research that points out just how serious the climate change challenge is."

The Canadian government recently withdrew from the Kyoto protocol to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.

The allegation of "muzzling" came up at a session of the AAAS meeting to discuss the impact of a media protocol introduced by the Conservative government shortly after it was elected in 2008.

The protocol requires that all interview requests for scientists employed by the government must first be cleared by officials. A decision as to whether to allow the interview can take several days, which can prevent government scientists commenting on breaking news stories.

Sources say that requests are often refused and when interviews are granted, government media relations officials can and do ask for written questions to be submitted in advance and elect to sit in on the interview.

'Orwellian' approach

Andrew Weaver, an environmental scientist at the University of Victoria in British Columbia, described the protocol as "Orwellian".

Continue reading the main story

Start Quote
The information is so tightly controlled that the public is left in the dark”
End Quote
Professor Andrew Weaver
 
University of Victoria
 The protocol states: "Just as we have one department we should have one voice. Interviews sometimes present surprises to ministers and senior management. Media relations will work with staff on how best to deal with the call (an interview request from a journalist). This should include asking the programme expert to respond with approved lines."

Professor Weaver said that information is so tightly controlled that the public is "left in the dark".

"The only information they are given is that which the government wants, which will then allow a supporting of a particular agenda," he said.

The leak was obtained and reported three years ago by Margaret Munro, who is a science writer for Postmedia News, based in Vancouver. Speaking at the AAAS meeting, she said its effect was to suppress scientific debate on issues of public interest.

"The more controversial the story, the less likely you are to talk to the scientists. They (government media relations staff) just stonewall. If they don't like the question you don't get an answer."

Ms Munro cited several examples of what she described as the "muzzling" of scientists by the government.

 
Research on falling salmon stocks was published in a leading journal The most notorious case is of that of Dr Kristi Miller, who is head of molecular genetics for the Department for Fisheries and Oceans. Dr Miller had been investigating why salmon populations in western Canada were declining.

The investigation, which was published in one of the leading scientific journals in the world, Science, seemed to suggest that fish might have been exposed to a virus associated with cancer.

The suggestion raised many questions, including whether the virus might have been imported by the local aquaculture industry.

Requests denied

The journal felt this to be an important study and put out a press release, which it sent out to thousands of journalists across the world. Dr Miller was named as the principal contact.

However, the government declined all requests to interview Dr Miller. It said it was because she was due to give evidence to a judicial inquiry on the issue of falling fish stocks.

According to Ms Munro, because reporters were denied the opportunity to question Dr Miller about her work, important public policy issues went unanswered.

"You have a government that is micromanaging the message, obsessively. The Privy Council Office (which works for the Prime Minister, Stephen Harper) seems to vet everything that goes out to the media," she said.

A spokeswoman for Fisheries and Oceans Canada told BBC News: "The Department works daily to ensure it provides the public with timely, accurate, objective and complete information about our policies, programmes, services and initiatives, in accordance with the Federal Government's Communications Policy.

"In 2011, Fisheries and Oceans publicly issued 286 science advisory reports documenting our research on Canada's fisheries; our scientists respond to approximately 380 science-based media calls every year."

Fisheries and Oceans Canada declined a request by the BBC to interview Kristi Miller for this article. Dr Miller told us she would have been willing to be interviewed had her department given her permission.

The AAAS meeting's discussion on muzzling is organised by freelance science reporter Binh An Vu Van. She says fellow journalists across Canada are finding it "harder and harder" to get access to government scientists.

Ms Vu Van claims that as well as "clear-cut cases of muzzling", such as the one involving Dr Miller, media relations officers use more subtle methods. She said that when she requests an interview, she has to enter into prolonged email correspondence to speak to a scientist she knows is ready and willing to be interviewed, often to be declined or offered another scientist she does not want to interview.

"It's so hard to get hold of scientists that a lot of my colleagues have given up," she explained.

Ms Munro cited another example of research published in another leading scientific journal, Nature, that was published last October.

Continue reading the main story

Start Quote
You have a government that is micromanaging the message, obsessively. It seems to vet everything that goes out to the media”
End Quote
Margaret Muro
 
Canadian Science Journalist
 An international team including several scientists from the government agency, Environment Canada, set out details of a hole that appeared in the ozone layer above the Arctic.

Ms Munro said she had called one of the scientists involved who she had dealt with several times in the past. He agreed to speak to her, but said that he had been told that her request had to be put to government media relations officials in Ottawa.

"So I phoned up Ottawa and they just said no you can't talk to the guy. A couple of weeks later, he was available but by then the story had been done. So they take them out of the news cycle," she said.

Ms Munro also claims that journalists were denied access to scientists working for the government agency Health Canada last year, when there was concern about radiation levels reaching the country's western coast from Japan following the explosion at the Fukushima nuclear power plant. Ultimately, journalists obtained the information they sought from European agencies.

The Postmedia News journalist obtained documents relating to interview requests using Canada's equivalent of the Freedom of Information Act. She said the documents show interview requests move up what she describes as an "increasingly thick layer of media managers, media strategists, deputy ministers, then go up to the Privy Council Office, which decides 'yes' or 'no'".

"The government has never explained what the process is. They just imposed these changes and they expected us to sit back and take it," she explained.

Professor Andrew Weaver believes that the media protocol is being used by the Canadian government to "instruct scientists to deliver a certain message, thereby taking the heat out of controversial topics".

He added: "You can't have an informed discussion if the science isn't allowed to be communicated. Public relations message number one is that you have to set the conversation. You don't want to have a conversation on someone else's terms. And this is now being applied to science on discussions about oil sands, climate and salmon."

Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on February 20, 2012, 09:38:38 AM
From Alex.

Two outbreaks of ISA virus - in Nova Scotia Cooke Aquaculture says it was found in a routine surveillance which means there were not any obvious losses, a situation I believe similar to BC. They call it "suspect" ISAv but they destroyed two pens. This is a big response to "suspect" ISA, but if they actually have it, is killing just 2 pens enough? What about the rest of the farm? We will see. In Norway ISA has appeared on their central coast and they are harvesting the fish, which suggests they are going for human consumption and emptying the pens will take as long as it takes to process all the fish. In BC we are still not allowed access to the farm salmon to confirm government's position that ISA virus is not in their fish.
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: alwaysfishn on February 20, 2012, 10:12:38 AM
From Alex.

Two outbreaks of ISA virus - in Nova Scotia Cooke Aquaculture says it was found in a routine surveillance which means there were not any obvious losses, a situation I believe similar to BC. They call it "suspect" ISAv but they destroyed two pens. This is a big response to "suspect" ISA, but if they actually have it, is killing just 2 pens enough? What about the rest of the farm? We will see. In Norway ISA has appeared on their central coast and they are harvesting the fish, which suggests they are going for human consumption and emptying the pens will take as long as it takes to process all the fish. In BC we are still not allowed access to the farm salmon to confirm government's position that ISA virus is not in their fish.


We can understand why no one is willing to admit that ISA is here in BC....
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on February 25, 2012, 10:06:06 AM
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/salmon-disease-surveillance-in-british-columbia-1624212.htm
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: troutbreath on February 27, 2012, 05:43:25 PM
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/fact-sheet/eng/1327198930863/1327199219511
Title: Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
Post by: chris gadsden on March 03, 2012, 05:31:59 PM
Prestigious science journal slams Harper government’s muzzle on federal scientists
Published On Thu Mar 1 2012Email Print
Rss ArticleThe Canadian Press
 

One of the world’s leading scientific journals has criticized the federal government for policies that limit its scientists from speaking publicly about their research.

The journal, Nature, says in an editorial in this week’s issue that it is time for the Canadian government to set its scientists free.

It notes that Canada and the United States have undergone role reversals in the past six years, with the U.S. adopting more open practices since the end of George W. Bush’s presidency while Canada has been going in the opposite direction.

The editorial says that since taking power in 2006, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government has tightened the media protocols applied to federal government scientists and employees.

Nature says policy directives on government communications that have been released through access to information requests have revealed the Harper government has little understanding of the importance of the free flow of scientific knowledge.

The journal says its own news reporters have experienced firsthand the obstacles the Canadian government puts in the way of people trying to gain access to science generated by government scientists on the public payroll.

“The Harper government’s poor record on openness has been raised by this publication before . . . and Nature’s news reporters, who have an obvious interest in access to scientific information and expert opinion, have experienced directly the cumbersome approval process that stalls or prevents meaningful contact with Canada’s publicly funded scientists,” the editorial says.

The editorial was referring to a column outlining the problems federal scientists face that it published in September 2010. The column was written by Kathryn O’Hara, a professor of science broadcast journalism at Carleton University in Ottawa and a former president of the Canadian Science Writers’ Association.

“Little has changed in the past two years.” the editorial continued. “Rather than address the matter, the Canadian government seems inclined to stick with its restrictive course and ride out all objections.”

Two weeks ago the Canadian Science Writers’ Association, the World Federation of Science Journalists and several other groups sent an open letter to Harper, calling on him to unmuzzle federal scientists.

The letter cited a couple of high-profile examples of the federal policy in action. Last fall Environment Canada barred Dr. David Tarasick from speaking to journalists about his ozone layer research when it was published in Nature. And the Privy Council Office stopped Kristina Miller, a researcher at Fisheries and Oceans Canada, from doing interviews about a study she published in Science on the causes of sockeye salmon decline in British Columbia.

Nature said the Canadian policy surprised international attendees of the recent conference in Vancouver of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. The problem was the subject of a session at the meeting.

“Scientists and other visitors from around the globe discovered, to their surprise, that Canada’s generally positive foreign reputation as a progressive, scientific nation masks some startlingly poor behaviour,” Nature says.

“The way forward is clear: it is time for the Canadian government to set its scientists free.”