Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: chris gadsden on January 21, 2011, 12:20:07 PM
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http://www.davidsuzuki.org/media/news/2011/01/proposed-salmon-farming-standards-ignore-environmental-impacts/
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--for examples of compliance with the law vs best practices just look at any logging operation today.
--compliance with the law has for the most part reduced current forest practice to the minimum allowable standard ( that is being kind on my part)
--might as well certify me as a good driver based on the number of speeding tickets I have had...or the vehicle I drive; which may meet or exceed all current safety standards, yet has nothing to do with how I drive it.
--yet no mention in the standard of number of tickets I have for running red lights, (a dangerous driving habit regardless of speed).
--This of course is a fictitious example, as there is no record that I have ever run a red light.
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Just how much money does Suzuki make off this stuff anyway ?
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Just how much money does Suzuki make off this stuff anyway ?
His organization raises almost $7,000,000 per year. Salaries account for $2,600,000 per year. I'm sure he is not the only employee. http://candobetter.net/node/918 (http://candobetter.net/node/918) This is a question that is raised about people like Alexandra Morton as well.
I personally don't care what they are making. I think what's relevant is how effective they are at doing what they are doing. While I don't agree with Suziki on everything, I believe he has had a positive effect on trying to raise awareness of the environment.
Would he have more credibility if he did not take any salary? What would be a reasonable salary?
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His organization raises almost $7,000,000 per year. Salaries account for $2,600,000 per year. I'm sure he is not the only employee. http://candobetter.net/node/918 (http://candobetter.net/node/918) This is a question that is raised about people like Alexandra Morton as well.
I personally don't care what they are making. I think what's relevant is how effective they are at doing what they are doing. While I don't agree with Suziki on everything, I believe he has had a positive effect on trying to raise awareness of the environment.
Would he have more credibility if he did not take any salary? What would be a reasonable salary?
I don't think it's wrong to take a salary at all , but the fact people do make a living at environmentalism does make it a business venture as well . With human nature being what it is , and people like Suzuki or Morton are just as human as the rest of us , it does throw bias into all the stuff they get involved in . They have a vested financial interest in a certain position .
As far as I'm concerned Suzuki's integrity is highly suspect in this regard . He has shown a willingness to skew facts in the past for his cause . And many major environmental groups have done like wise . Suzuki showed this when he got involved in the gravel extraction issue on the Fraser recently . But many believed him just because he's Suzuki and he works for such a 'worthy' cause and would therefore never be dishonest.
I can't speak specifically about Morton as I know nothing about her personally but yes she seems to make a living off her cause too .
For some good reading on modern environmentalism have a look at Greenpeace founder , Patrick Moore's website . The movement has gone far beyond their original roots and does indulge in extreme dishonesty .
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I agree that in some cases "The movement has gone far beyond their original roots and does indulge in extreme dishonesty ."
I think they walk a fine line and when people start recognizing how good a living they are making, it could affect the support for their cause.
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Some reading material for the open minded :
http://www.greenspirit.com/index.cfm
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Some reading material for the open minded :
http://www.greenspirit.com/index.cfm
Here's some more reading: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.03/moore_pr.html (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.03/moore_pr.html)
Some excerpts:
"Moore's new interest in sustainable development led him increasingly far afield of the rest of the environmental movement and estranged him from the organization he had helped found. Inspired by Elizabeth Mann Borgese's book Seafarm, he started a salmon farm and became head of the fledgling Salmon Farmer's Association - only to find himself pitted against Greenpeace, which blamed saltwater aquaculture for polluting the ocean.
In 1991, as his farm was going under due to a salmon glut, he joined the board of the Forest Alliance of British Columbia, a group created by the timber industry to address the accusations of environmentalists. There, he saw his role as a mediator. He proudly points to his stubborn - and ultimately successful - insistence that the industry soften its resistance to national parks and government regulation. At the same time, however, he was attacking the eco crowd, proclaiming that "clear-cuts are temporary meadows."
"And then there's money. Even 18 years after he left Greenpeace, Moore's business relationships with polluters and clear-cutters elicit disgust from his erstwhile comrades. "He'll whore himself to anything to make a buck," says Paul George, founder of the Western Canada Wildlife Committee. In an email, former Greenpeace director Paul Watson charges, "You're a corporate whore, Pat, an eco-Judas, a lowlife bottom-sucking parasite who has grown rich from sacrificing environmentalist principles for plain old money."
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-What's wrong with clear-cuts?
-Problem is for some the Religion of Enviro's gets in the way of the art and science.
-I cannot judge Suzuki or Watson as I do not know them well enough to make an informed decision.
-All this means is if when one of them speaks I have to decide to trust and believe them as a disciple or roll up my sleeves and really dig into the available information and formulate my own conclusions... if possible.
-I used to think it wasn't possible to walk on water until I move to the interior and discovered ice fishing.
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No news that Moore has been under vehement attack by extreme environmentalists . I was here working in the forest industry while all the wars were going on . The forest industry was forced to change many times over to satisfy environmentalist groups . They met the demands , then after the dust settled they were always attacked as though they had done nothing . There will never be peace between environmental groups and industry . This is because if it is admitted by those making a living off environmentalism , that the demands are met , then they are no longer needed ,to put it simplistically .
There needs to be solutions found , something no environmental group ever gives .
Suzuki for his part made it sound like the gravel extractions on the Fraser were pushed for by industry and that industry skewed the facts to get it . Some members of this message board pushed the same lie . I happened to attend those town hall meetings in '06 when the Fraser threatened the valley and that position was a blatant lie . I was one of those living on the flood plain that year and took the matter very seriously . Industry was not there . We , the CITIZENS , demanded answers from our politicians on why they had neglected dredging for so long that we were now in danger ! They did lots of back pedaling and made excuses for this , but promised us they would rectify the situation . One of those excuses was that no mining groups wanted to do the job as it was not very lucrative .
It was NOT industry doing the pushing . But Suzuki and some of our board members came in 2 years later and have pushed a revisionist account of how it happened ! I know this , I was there and was one of those demanding action ! To this day they still push this agenda based on skewed facts all the while claiming they were not against the extraction . Of course as usual they offer no solution. After all why should Suzuki care about some of us locals in the valley who may get flooded in the future should get his way , his house is not in danger . For him just another cause for fund raising at some one else's expense.
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-What's wrong with clear-cuts?
-Problem is for some the Religion of Enviro's gets in the way of the art and science.
-I cannot judge Suzuki or Watson as I do not know them well enough to make an informed decision.
-All this means is if when one of them speaks I have to decide to trust and believe them as a disciple or roll up my sleeves and really dig into the available information and formulate my own conclusions... if possible.
-I used to think it wasn't possible to walk on water until I move to the interior and discovered ice fishing.
Many animals love clear-cuts ! Especially bears .You are right to point out the enviro-religious connection . Religion has lots to do with today's environmental movement . Suzuki himself likes to talk about Gaia on his TV shows , revealing the religious position of his politics . Many do literally believe in Mother Earth or Gaia and therefore can never make a compromise . All one has to do is look through some extreme environmental sites on the net to realize this . Many would like to see all mankind wiped off the face of the earth believing mankind to be a cancer on Mother Earth.
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...Many would like to see all mankind wiped off the face of the earth believing mankind to be a cancer on Mother Earth.
When you've seen what mankind has done to much of earth/it's resources you'd see they do have a point.
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This has suddenly become a very interesting thread to me. Until now I was unaware about Pat Moore and have found what I have read so far to be refreshing. Seems like a respectable fella.
His organization raises almost $7,000,000 per year. Salaries account for $2,600,000 per year. I'm sure he is not the only employee. http://candobetter.net/node/918 This is a question that is raised about people like Alexandra Morton as well.
I believe that Miss Morton is in a category of her own financially seeing she is the daughter of American trust fund baby billionaire Barbra Marx Hubbard, co-founder of "conscious evolution". What she has to say in her videos is interesting and the comments that follow as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcbStlzYBkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzo1JuXSIc
And feel free to view other videos as well if the first two don't give you an impression, there are many.
I would think that she(morton) is not doing it for the money and it looks like her and her mother would get along just fine.
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This has suddenly become a very interesting thread to me. Until now I was unaware about Pat Moore and have found what I have read so far to be refreshing. Seems like a respectable fella.
I believe that Miss Morton is in a category of her own financially seeing she is the daughter of American trust fund baby billionaire Barbra Marx Hubbard, co-founder of "conscious evolution". What she has to say in her videos is interesting and the comments that follow as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcbStlzYBkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzo1JuXSIc
And feel free to view other videos as well if the first two don't give you an impression, there are many.
I would think that she(morton) is not doing it for the money and it looks like her and her mother would get along just fine.
Although I disagree with your stand on open pen farming, at least I understand it.
Your last post made no sense at all...... ???
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When you've seen what mankind has done to much of earth/it's resources you'd see they do have a point.
So... are you willing to volunteer yourself ?
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This has suddenly become a very interesting thread to me. Until now I was unaware about Pat Moore and have found what I have read so far to be refreshing. Seems like a respectable fella.
I believe that Miss Morton is in a category of her own financially seeing she is the daughter of American trust fund baby billionaire Barbra Marx Hubbard, co-founder of "conscious evolution". What she has to say in her videos is interesting and the comments that follow as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcbStlzYBkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzo1JuXSIc
And feel free to view other videos as well if the first two don't give you an impression, there are many.
I would think that she(morton) is not doing it for the money and it looks like her and her mother would get along just fine.
So that's Morton's mother ? Could it be Morton herself is of the same bent ? This is exactly why I have learned such a deep distrust of so many environmentalists as I have found there to be such a strong connection with the extremists of the movement with exactly that type of philosophy/religion . We don't speak the same language and unfortunately so many average people are so unaware of just who it is promoting the agenda and what the real agenda is . Of course there can never be peace or solutions found when the one side is into something entirely different from the main steam . Truth definitely becomes a casualty in such a war .
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Here is the angle that David Suzuki comes into this from:
http://www.pantheism.net/earth.htm
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Suggesting that the sanity of their parents or their spirituality negates the credit Morton and Suzuki deserve for protecting wild salmon and the environment is a stretch...... ::)
Isn't that called "Throwing out the baby with the bath water"
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For some background info on Patrick Moore:
Go to itunes----goto podcasts-----search patrick moore------listen to tyee podcast or:
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/03/26/PatrickMoore/
In this podcast Mr Moore tells of his journey to where he is now. He also talks of his upbringing and what his father did.
Pretty interesting views.
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Suggesting that the sanity of their parents or their spirituality negates the credit Morton and Suzuki deserve for protecting wild salmon and the environment is a stretch...... ::)
Isn't that called "Throwing out the baby with the bath water"
You are quite right ... which is why I did not do that.
I was only asking aloud, considering her mother's 'far out in left field' philosophy , could it be , since she may have been raised by her mother and possibly be influenced by her mother , grown up with a similar beliefs . She very well may have rejected her mother's views but on the other hand she may have embraced them or something similar . Perhaps it would be something of interest to search .
As for Suzuki , how much time has he spent on the Veddar himself studying our salmon species ? Just what makes him more of a 'expert' on them than you or me ? Is it because he chooses to wear a 'scientist' label ? I personally have spent much time on the Veddar , I'm thinking , probably far more time there than Suzuki , but he could just ride in on his tour bus and would be believed by many just because of his name on what he was to say on the system , even if he knows nothing about the river . Kinda like a pro athlete making an endorsement .
As for his spirituality , I point it out so it can be seen what his bias is . It's not necessarily one that seeks solutions that the general public may want . People should know all the facts.
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http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/01/26/packard%e2%80%99s-push-against-b-c-salmon/#ixzz1CG736V1P
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Thanks for this interesting link gordc; finally people are starting to hear about "wild" Alaska salmon, the marketing croc they are, and their impact on BC's economy.
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Thanks for this interesting link gordc; finally people are starting to hear about "wild" Alaska salmon, the marketing croc they are, and their impact on BC's economy.
I appreciate the contribution that the Packard Foundation is making. I really don't care what their reasons are for contributing to the pro-Alaskan salmon campaign.
The more help we can get to make the farmed salmon industry more responsible and more accountable the better!
Thanks for the link gordc! ;D
I'm going out on limb here when I suggest that Vivian is probably a little biased. ??? "Vivian Krause, a Vancouver-based researcher who once worked in the salmon farming industry, is the keynote speaker today at the Scotia Pride Aquaculture conference in Halifax."
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So David Suzuki was paid $1.5 million by the Packard Foundation( an American Group ) to campaign against Canadian farmed salmon and promote the sale of American farmed ,er , I mean ranch , salmon instead ? Alexandra Morton made some pretty good money in this too ?
More help is good , even if it is dishonest or corrupt help , right ?
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So David Suzuki was paid $1.5 million by the Packard Foundation( an American Group ) to campaign against Canadian farmed salmon and promote the sale of American farmed ,er , I mean ranch , salmon instead ? Alexandra Morton made some pretty good money in this too ?
More help is good , even if it is dishonest or corrupt help , right ?
The huge corporations that own the farms can well afford to defend what they are doing and appear to be doing it quite well. Imagine the carnage if the wild salmon had no sugar daddy's to help ensure their survival.
I think the expression "not be able to see the forest due to the trees" may apply.
From my point of view I want to see the wild salmon protected and I could care less about the details of who steps up to help!
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Exactly how is Suzuki doing any good ?
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Exactly how is Suzuki doing any good ?
He is creating awareness of the harm being done to the environment.
Ordinary Joe's like me wouldn't even be aware of the problems being created by industry without his campaigns. I won't argue the fact that he may be over the top in some cases. However in order to be an effective communicator you need to shout sometimes.....
It's up to everyone to sift through it to determine the extent of the truth. I see it as a pendulum. He is on the opposite end of what most people are aware of and the truth is probably in the middle.
Caught any more steelies penn?
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It's obvioius that the Suzuki Foundation has a credibility problem with some but you can't deny the fact that many environmental issues are out in the open due to the foundation's work. In my opinion, that simple fact makes gives it creditbility in my book. In the case of Alex Morton, I fail to see what her financial standing has to do with her credibility. It would be very easy for her to live a comfortable life and not get involved by paddling down the Fraser in an attempt to make concerns about fish farming a public issue. The fact that some provincial politicians have openly attacked her personally as well as her cause makes me think she is right.
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Caught any more steelies penn?
Yes , how bout you ? Just got one yesterday after work .
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Yes , how bout you ? Just got one yesterday after work .
I got one today.... Apparently you were the guy that got one at the top of the run that I was fishing last night. Congrats!
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Hope this post gets back on track ::)