Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: alwaysfishn on January 07, 2011, 12:51:28 PM
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I personally think this is a bad idea....... What are your thoughts?
Happy New Year all!
I have changed the name of this list from "fishermanlist" in case you don't recognize this email.
I am writing to ask for your feedback. On January 5th I was contacted by the federal NDP and asked to consider running for Member of Parliament of the North Vancouver Island riding.
I am considering running because it is my observation that wild salmon and BC’s rural communities are both suffering of the same politics. Much of government is operating at a level that does not appear to consider those of us on the ground in small communities. It looks like negotiations are taking place over our heads in the jet stream of international finance and that this is less and less good for our communities, the bears, whales and salmon.
I do need to consider carefully whether I have better ability to serve the place I love and call home as an MP, or as an outspoken biologist. I will be thinking hard for the next few days.
There is now a facebook page on this where you can comment: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Alexandra-Morton-MP-for-Vancouver-Island-North/190215600992255
I also have a nonpartisan website you can join for considerations beyond the immediate decision: www.wildsalmonpeople.ca
I am extremely reluctant to enter politics, but I am facing the harsh reality that nothing we have done has changed anything in the water where it counts and I just want to get to the bottom of this and fix it. Too much is at risk to allow Ottawa and foreign shareholders drive us into the ground.
More of my reasoning is at: http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/
If any of you have pros or cons on this I will read them.
Thank you,Alexandra Morton
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I personally think this is a bad idea....... What are your thoughts?
Happy New Year all!
I have changed the name of this list from "fishermanlist" in case you don't recognize this email.
I am writing to ask for your feedback. On January 5th I was contacted by the federal NDP and asked to consider running for Member of Parliament of the North Vancouver Island riding.
I am considering running because it is my observation that wild salmon and BC’s rural communities are both suffering of the same politics. Much of government is operating at a level that does not appear to consider those of us on the ground in small communities. It looks like negotiations are taking place over our heads in the jet stream of international finance and that this is less and less good for our communities, the bears, whales and salmon.
I do need to consider carefully whether I have better ability to serve the place I love and call home as an MP, or as an outspoken biologist. I will be thinking hard for the next few days.
There is now a facebook page on this where you can comment: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Alexandra-Morton-MP-for-Vancouver-Island-North/190215600992255
I also have a nonpartisan website you can join for considerations beyond the immediate decision: www.wildsalmonpeople.ca
I am extremely reluctant to enter politics, but I am facing the harsh reality that nothing we have done has changed anything in the water where it counts and I just want to get to the bottom of this and fix it. Too much is at risk to allow Ottawa and foreign shareholders drive us into the ground.
More of my reasoning is at: http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/
If any of you have pros or cons on this I will read them.
Thank you,Alexandra Morton
Why is it a bad idea?
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I think its a bad idea too. If I was a constituent my first question would be how much of your time will be spent on salmon issues and how much time on vancouver island north issues. Id never vote for a single issue candidate.
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Good for her. I would imagine that salmon would be an issue for people on the north island as many used to make a living off the fishing industry. So it probably is the most important issue.... after cutting down trees. One thing for sure, she's got more integrity than most of those smarmy mouthed BC Liberals. The person who is the MP now would make a good trivia question : who is the MP for the North Vancouver Island. No hints. No curb side call outs.
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I think that being an activist and a scientist at the same time isn't really working out so well. Best not throw politics in the mix.
Her issues would likely be hand picked...like her seines.
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Why is it a bad idea?
I think as a "outspoken biologist" she carries a significant amount of credibility...... I can't say the same for a politician, NDP or any other.
If she wants to do the politics fine, but then she should drop the biology.... unfortunately I'm not aware of anyone else out there that could fill her shoes.
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I think that being an activist and a scientist at the same time isn't really working out so well. Best not throw politics in the mix.
Her issues would likely be hand picked...like her seines.
I disagree... The industry needs exactly what she is providing.
I agree that tainting it with politics wouldn't help her efforts!
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I think that the polarization she will being to the North Island race will likely get Duncan in again. I appreciate her fish farm work, but I dont think she can beat Duncan
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She's better off running as an Independent. Once elected as a MP under a political party he/she is committed to following the party's agenda whatever that may be. Remember Jim Ciummins running for the Conservatives ? How much impact did he have with regards to the Tories' policy on fishing ?
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She's better off running as an Independent. Once elected as a MP under a political party he/she is committed to following the party's agenda whatever that may be. Remember Jim Ciummins running for the Conservatives ? How much impact did he have with regards to the Tories' policy on fishing ?
Good point. If she wants to be in both politics and protecting salmon that would make the most sense.
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It is never a bad idea for any citizen to step up and run for public office to serve their community, whether they are salmon biologists or even corporate executives, small business owners or trade unionists. The public will decide at the polls if their ideas have merit.
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I think that being an activist and a scientist at the same time isn't really working out so well. Best not throw politics in the mix.
Her issues would likely be hand picked...like her seines.
What you are suggesting is that the sampling protocol used by Alexandra is biased in some fashion to select for parasitized juveniles over non-parasitized juveniles. I have personally done sampling and lice counting for Alexandra's data set in the Broughton. The fish are beach seined blindly or by sighting a school, the seine net is then pursed (volume reduced) to a size that is manageable for dip-netting fish. A large dip-net withdraws anywhere from 400-500 fish at a time, and these fish are put into 4-5 large pails of sea-water. A smaller dip net is then slowly swirled around the bottom of the pails to bring all of the fish in the buckets to the top. The fish are all active, moving constantly in circles around the top of the water in the buckets. The smaller dip net is then lifted up from the bottom, taking a random pink or chum juvenile. In the event that more than one fish is dip netted, to avoid bias, all fish are returned to the recovery pail (a pail with only sea-water), and the procedure repeated until a single random sample has been isolated for lice enumeration and morphometrics.
If there is any subjectivity to the selection of a juvenile for lice enumeration, it is extremely miniscule and negligible. The above procedure is a way to make sure the fish remain alive after the lice enumeration, rather than using DFO protocol which kills all juveniles sampled.
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Jon,
How can someone be an activist and a scientist at the same time???
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Jon,
How can someone be an activist and a scientist at the same time???
Charles J. Krebs wrote this passage in my textbook in introductory ecology:
Science is thought by many people to be value free, but this is certainly not the case. Values are woven all through the tapestry of science. All applied science is done because of value judgments. Medical research is a good example of basic research applied to human health that virtually everyone supports. Weapons research is carried out because countries wish to defend themselves against military aggression.
In ecology the strongest discussions about values have involved conservation biology. Should conservation biologists be objective scientists studying in biodiversity, or should they be public advocates for preserving biodiversity? The preservation of biodiversity is a value that often conflicts with other values - for example, clear-cut logging that produces jobs and wood products. Ecological journals are peppered with this discussion about advocacy.
Scientists have a dual role. First, they carry out objective science that both obtains data and tests hypotheses about ecological systems. They can also be advocates for particular policies that attempt to change society, such as the use of electric cars to reduce air pollution. But it is crucial to separate these two kinds of activities.
Science is a way of knowing, a method for determining the principles by which systems like ecological systems operate. The key scientific virtues are honesty and objectivity in the search for truth. Scientists assume that once we know these scientific principles we can devise effective policies to achieve social goals. All members of society collectively decide on what social goals we will pursue, and civic responsibility is part of the job of everyone, scientists included. There we always be a healthy tension between scientific knowledge and public policy in environmental matters because there are always several ways of reaching a particular policy goal. The debates over public policy in research funding and environmental matters will continue.
As concerned people who want only the best for us and the salmon, we want to see what is best for both us and them. The system is complex, and so to understand it we use the scientific method. Using science as a tool to seek the truth gives us the ability to advocate for certain policies with confidence.
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I just hope she won't end up like many other good people. Who got lost in the game of power hunger when they are voted into office.
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Jon,
How can someone be an activist and a scientist at the same time???
Aquapaloosa, I'm amazed at how you take an unfounded stab at Alexandra Morton, and when caught (by Jonhill) you change your tact.... Similar to a lot of politicians I've observed....
I have no doubt that she could do both, however the perception of her science would be biased by a person's political leanings. In addition political parties have their own agenda's, which may be in conflict with what is best for the salmon.
That could effect the effectiveness of her campaign.
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-- "I have no doubt that she could do both, however the perception of her science would be biased by a person's political leanings. In addition political parties have their own agenda's, which may be in conflict with what is best for the salmon".
-- I believe the bias would be in the choosing of areas of study rather than the scientific integrity of the study... If you use poor science...eventually you will be found out and the the short term gain will be erased as well as any other good work done.
--I do not know Alexandra personally... I have of course read some of her many articles on salmon.
--My suggestion... run as an independent or maybe GREEN which would allow for more freedome and if she got in as a Green she would get more national exposure of HER views rather than just those of the parties.
---Just ask Jenny Kwan about freedom of speech... she was often quoted, even gave some of her own views when she was one of two sitting MLA's but as we know that all changed.
---To add balance to the teeter totter... Rafe... still claims you can be an environmental advocate and a Socred...
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Unfortunately there are hundreds who care less about wild salmon that will see her as a single-issue candidate. A strong NDP candidate without "baggage" has a much better likelyhood of defeating MP John Duncan, who is well liked by town councils, many business operators and those in the fish farm industry.
Alex is doing a great job where she is---- I hope she doesnt change now
And the worst thing she could do is to run as a Green or Independent... that would suck votes away from the NDP, which does have a chance of a win
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--If the NDP loves her views so much and feel they must defeat John Duncan they don't have to run a candidate against her!
--I don't live in the riding thus cannot comment specifically but being well liked by town councils and many business operators may be a plus but it is still one vote per person so obviously others in the area must like him as well.
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Her issues would likely be hand picked...like her seines.
I admit that this does come across a bit as a "drunk post'. I assure you I was not irrationally posting drunk. It is a bit of an insider comment that most will not understand but for some, the statement is very clear.
Aquapaloosa, I'm amazed at how you take an unfounded stab at Alexandra Morton, and when caught (by Jonhill) you change your tact....
Unfounded in your opinion, caught, call it what you like. Jon is one of the few that would know what I was even talking about which is brings me to this point. Most people to not understand the debate yet hold strong opinions promoted by "activist science" through media and private funding.
For one to be amazed suggest to me that one is unaware that there is 2 sides to the debate.
Changed tact, well i just will not back it up and neither can jon.
I agree that she would do best with the green party.
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If there is any subjectivity to the selection of a juvenile for lice enumeration, it is extremely miniscule and negligible. The above procedure is a way to make sure the fish remain alive after the lice enumeration, rather than using DFO protocol which kills all juveniles sampled.
A subsample of juveniles are scarificed only when required for further diagnostic work which cannot be done when the fish are alive. DNA samples, scales and lengths can be obtained from the juveniles without killing them. It is not DFO protocol to kill all juveniles sampled. I have read Dr. Beamish's methodology and I suggest you do the same.
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A subsample of juveniles are scarificed only when required for further diagnostic work which cannot be done when the fish are alive. DNA samples, scales and lengths can be obtained from the juveniles without killing them. It is not DFO protocol to kill all juveniles sampled. I have read Dr. Beamish's methodology and I suggest you do the same.
A joint sampling team consisting of industry, independents, and DFO were doing sampling while I was at the Salmon Coast field station in the Spring of last year. Their sampling protocol involved killing every fish by putting them alive into sampling bags and onto ice. This is the sampling protocol is that I am referring to, and it's my understanding that the DFO was pushing for this methodology over hand lens lice enumeration because they wanted to be able to isolate the individual life stages of the ectoparasites (Leps and Caligus) to a higher resolution under dissection microscope.
What I posted earlier was not a generalization of DFO protocol, but a specific case related to sampling juveniles in the field for lice enumeration in the Broughton Archipelago.
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If there is any subjectivity to the selection of a juvenile for lice enumeration, it is extremely miniscule and negligible. The above procedure is a way to make sure the fish remain alive after the lice enumeration, rather than using DFO protocol which kills all juveniles sampled.
I suspect that this is jon's independent observations and i see it as a prime example of why activists do not make good scientists. This is not a unfounded stab at industry, independents and dfo scientists, it simply is not true. I'd call that "caught".
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I suspect that this is jon's independent observations and i see it as a prime example of why activists do not make good scientists. This is not a unfounded stab at industry, independents and dfo scientists, it simply is not true. I'd call that "caught".
Call me stupid, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
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And this is supposed to be a thread about her running for the NDP-- not an examination (AGAIN fer crying out loud!! >:() ) of her methodology.
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Their sampling protocol involved killing every fish by putting them alive into sampling bags and onto ice. This is the sampling protocol is that I am referring to, and it's my understanding that the DFO was pushing for this methodology over hand lens lice enumeration because they wanted to be able to isolate the individual life stages of the ectoparasites (Leps and Caligus) to a higher resolution under dissection microscope.
Killing a miniscule percentage of the total smolt population in the field to get better data back in the lab that might start to answer some questions about where and when the lice infected the smolts and the origin of the lice seems like good science to me. I suspect the researchers have been doing this kind of work for a long time and understand the limitations of just running around hand lensing for lice presence.
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Killing a miniscule percentage of the total smolt population in the field to get better data back in the lab that might start to answer some questions about where and when the lice infected the smolts and the origin of the lice seems like good science to me. I suspect the researchers have been doing this kind of work for a long time and understand the limitations of just running around hand lensing for lice presence.
The population you are referring to was significantly depressed at the time, so as it might be a minuscule proportion 200 years ago, the effect is magnified when the population numbers are a fraction of their historical abundance. It's not wise to kill individuals from populations that are low in numbers, for obvious reasons. Also, this "running around" has been compared with lethal sampling techniques in a publication, Nonlethal Assessment of Juvenile Pink and Chum Salmon for Parasitic Sea Lice Infections and Fish Health (Krkosek et al. 2005).
Here is a quote from the discussion, as it compares "running around hand lensing" with killing juveniles and bringing them back to the lab.
"Both nonlethal and lethal sampling techniques produced similar estimates of louse stage abundances despite a bias to underdetect copepodid and chalimus lice in nonlethal samples."
Furthermore, as mentioned above, scale samples can be taken without killing fish, which can be used to determine the origin of the fish via microsatellite DNA analysis.
I have done both lethal and nonlethal sampling, and from my own experience, there is a high probability of losing a louse on the plastic bag the fish are held in, as the handling time is increased significantly. Also, it's not possible to determine where the louse are coming from by looking at them under neither microscope nor hand lens, so it added no additional resolution to their assessment.
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Tonight: Listen to Alexandra Morton on CBC’s ‘Ideas’ show with Paul Kennedy (10th January) – ‘Saving Salmon’: http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/schedule/#january
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What about....” (Alexandra Morton, 10th January): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/01/what-about.html
“Atlantic Salmon Federation urges changes to prevent farmed fish from escaping” (Fisheries Information Service, 10th January): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=10&id=39985&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=
“Bad decision to put more salmon in path of Fraser River sockeye, say grouping” (Fish News EU, 10th January):
http://www.fishnewseu.com/latest-news/world/5013-bad-decision-to-put-more-salmon-in-path-of-fraser-river-sockeye-say-grouping-.html
“Greenpeace founder supports salmon farming” (Fish Farming Xpert, 10th January): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=90230
“Wild salmon is healthier than farmed” (Medical News Today, 10th January):
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/213244.php
“
Sure, your cheque is in the mail. Really: An Initiative of the BC Salmon Farmers Association Invites the Public to Get the Straight Facts on Salmon Farming at their New web site, www.BCSalmonFacts.ca
” (CNW/BC Salmon Farmers’ Association, 9th January):
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/January2011/09/c9315.html
“Your words of advice” (Alexandra Morton, 9th January): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/01/your-words-of-advice.html
“More fish farm oversight” (The Times Colonist, 8th January):
http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/More+fish+farm+oversight/4080262/story.html?cid=megadrop_story
“
Morton 'thinking about' federal NDP bid
” (North Island Gazette, 7th January): http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/113101539.html
“Politics that are killing our salmon are killing our towns” (Alexandra Morton, 7th January): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2011/01/politics-that-are-killing-our-salmon-are-killing-our-towns.html
“Pesticide use, lobster deaths probed in Down East waters” (Bangor Daily News, 7th January): http://www.bangordailynews.com/story/Business/Pesticide-use-lobster-deaths-probed-in-Down-East-waters,163402
“138,000 farmed salmon escape into Bay of Fundy” (CTV/Canadian Press, 7th January): http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20110107/farmed-salmon-escape-into-bay-of-fundy-110107/
“More Farmed Salmon Escape Near Grand Manan Island” (Atlantic Salmon Federation, 7th January): http://www.asf.ca/news.php?id=631
“Update on Okisollo and Hoskyn Channel salmon farms” (BC Salmon Farmers’ Association, 7th January): http://www.salmonfarmers.org/update-okisollo-and-hoskyn-channel-salmon-farms
“Half a million more farmed salmon being placed in the path of migrating Fraser River sockeye” (Georgia Strait Alliance, 7th January): http://www.georgiastrait.org/?q=node%2F994
“Lawmakers tackle genetically modified salmon” (Slash Food, 7th January): http://www.slashfood.com/2011/01/07/lawmakers-tackle-genetically-modified-salmon/
“Message from Alexandra Morton” (Alexandra Morton, 7th January):
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/
“Farmers work to protect wild salmon from sea lice” (BC Salmon Facts, 7th January):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-RqHyCxDEc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
“
Farmed salmon are vaccinated to prevent disease and rarely need additional medications
” (BC Salmon Facts, 7th January):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcY01kxqIKk&feature=related
“
Farmed salmon is raised naturally. That means no hormones or genetic modification to enhance growth
” (BC Salmon Facts, 7th January):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xQBdIYIy1s&feature=related
“Salmon production to remain steady in North America: Norwegian companies operating in British Columbia don’t expect a major shift to their production volumes in 2011” (Fish Farming Xpert, 4th January): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=90189
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From Alex this morning.
Hello
I have received 589 email replies from you with 95% encouraging me to run for federal MP for the North Island of British Columbia. The facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/Alexandra-Morton-MP-for-Vancouver-Island-North/190215600992255#!/pages/Alexandra-Morton-MP-for-Vancouver-Island-North/190215600992255 has more comments.
Even though I am just a field biologist, clearly you think I can do this. A great many of you have said you don’t trust the NDP, but would vote for me anyway. Others have suggested I look at the current provincial BC political disarray. So you have given me pause and far more to consider.
I excerpted many of your comments on my blog, and just posted some of my thoughts. I will be on CBC Ideas tonight in an interview recorded on the shores of the Stellako River last October.
Alexandra Morton
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/
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Not very nice when 95% of your "friends" are telling you to go jump off a bridge....
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Not very nice when 95% of your "friends" are telling you to go jump off a bridge....
--Often Friends aren't the best sounding board.... many may want to encourage you rather than hold up the mirror for the emperor to see his/her new cloths.
--I would say take a hard look at your current sphere of influence on issues related to salmon... what will you be giving up as an MP.
--If you believe NDP already has a sound policy what would be the point of joining... If you believe the NDP policy is flawed how would you best influence change... remember old tradition out of date (my opinion) caucus rules? If caucus decides on an issue and evokes closure...you're sunk as far as giving public opinion.
--sometimes best advice comes from outside your sphere of influence..you have to conscider, if you run... how are you going to win support from current supporters of John Duncan.. as important as keeping current NDP supporters.
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Call me stupid, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
He trying to discredit your first-hand knowledge with third-hand BS.
Pro-fishfarm people will say anything to try to discredit real information.
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...you have to consider, if you run... how are you going to win support from current supporters of John Duncan.. as important as keeping current NDP supporters.
Unless John Duncan changes his tune regarding the halibut issue, methinks his days as an MLA are seriously numbered. He managed a win with less than 2,400 votes last go-around. This time around he has Peed Off many more than that, and a great many of those in his own riding. Ominous Silence thus far...
Rest of the post is good. I would caution Alex to seriously consider what she might be getting in to.
Cheers,
Nog
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If Fin Donnelly can do it for the NDP, why not Alex?
http://www.findonnelly.ca/biography (http://www.findonnelly.ca/biography)
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My note to Alex after hearing her on the CBC show Ideas tonight. Try to catch it as it is on CBC at 9 tonight or on the computer from CBC Alberta at 8 our time.
Hi Alex,
I just listened to your one hour interview on the CBC from Toronto, it was wonderful and I gained so much more knowledge as well as further insight into the wild salmon, fish farm topic. It is too bad some bureaucrats from FOC, many government politicians and too many from the public do not understand like you do the importance of wild salmon to our world.
We that treasure our wild salmon for the well being of our planet now and into the future can not thank you enough for all your work the last number of years in getting your important message out. Hopefully this interview, that will reach thousands will help further in educating many that have not understood or paid attention to what wild salmon mean to us as well as the whole ecosystem.
Kindest regards,
Chris