Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: bluesteele on August 09, 2010, 10:27:09 PM
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From the thread BC Interior Rivers BAIT BAN PETITION posted on the flybc.ca website
http://www.petitiononline.com/baitban1/petition.html
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This bait ban is pathetic.
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Any reasoning as to "why" it is pathetic.
Simply stating something is pathetic doesn't exactly mean much regarding the topic.......
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Pathetic how?
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Bait ban just opens more of a flossing fishery. We met with Mr Penner a few years ago about this and got his support not to entertain this idea again.
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Bait ban just opens more of a flossing fishery. We met with Mr Penner a few years ago about this and got his support not to entertain this idea again.
YIKES theirs that flossing word again ;D
Appreciate your input Chris. The way I see it is the Speyfolk will continue to fish as always (me included). The BAIT ban will exclude no one. Gear fishers (me included)
can still use highly effective jewelry all day long. I do not see how eliminating bait will bring about flossing? Goo chuckers will simply chuck hardware.
If you are referring to flossing by fly guys or Fraser style I just dont see it happening. Fraser flossers are meatboys and would have no patience for T-Steel any which way you look at it.
Goo chuckers again will most likely switch to many effective other gear means.
Mr Penner thinks ROR projects are swell as well. >:(
He will be out of office soon I hope.
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I can't see why there already hasn't been a bait ban on the interior steelhead rivers. I know they put a bait ban on all the tribs to the Skeena come fall when the steelies start showing up.
I've heard in recent years there has been as little as 1000 fish showing up on the Thompson, if that's the case, why is it even open in the first place?
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majority of steelhead I have hooked on the T have been on hardware...big kitimat spoons so I think there are options out there if a bait fishery proved to produce too many fatalities.
Chris do you really think flossers would move up to the thompson for C&R steelhead? That would be a very sad day.
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name 1 river in BC where a bait ban has helped increase the number of returning steelhead !
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YIKES theirs that flossing word again ;D
Appreciate your input Chris. The way I see it is the Speyfolk will continue to fish as always (me included). The BAIT ban will exclude no one. Gear fishers (me included)
can still use highly effective jewelry all day long. I do not see how eliminating bait will bring about flossing? Goo chuckers will simply chuck hardware.
If you are referring to flossing by fly guys or Fraser style I just dont see it happening. Fraser flossers are meatboys and would have no patience for T-Steel any which way you look at it.
Goo chuckers again will most likely switch to many effective other gear means.
Mr Penner thinks ROR projects are swell as well. >:(
He will be out of office soon I hope.
Fish being over played on the spey rod and held for too long for a photo shoot worry me more than bait...ask those nicola pin cushions come november.
Ive hooked a number of steelhead on the T and local rivers and have never had a bleeder...
many of my friends have been fishing it for years with bait and have never had one either...we use adequate gear and get them in faster than a spey rod. The only fish we've ever found dead on the T was a 15lb boot with a barbed GP in its side.
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THANK GOD someone posted this....I wanted to but wanted to word it in a way that I would get an idea of how people felt about it.
I would be first in line to sign a petition for a bait ban on that river if there was SOLID CONCRETE evidence to support it but there isn't. Just look who started the petition, I personally think it's got nothing to do with the steelhead but more to do with how to find a why to make it a fly only system for him and his buddies. Once you do away with bait then next comes hardware and where does that leave the gear guys? I would be just as happy fishing artificials and hardware but you have to make a stand somewhere and if bait goes hardware will come next. You don't have to fish bait, it's a choice and does it work all the time...no!
Vancouver Island has had a bait ban in effect for years. Has there been any movement towards fly only? No. The truth is the Thompson is not well suited for fly-fishing in many areas and you will never see people pushing for fly only.
This topic was brought up years ago on another forum and it got heated at times and even rivalled flossing topics. If you can find that thread you will see that the guy pushing for this petition is the same guy stirring that pot. I don't know him personally but I have not heard good things and even guys in the same industry that know him say the same and this guy is a director of the Steelhead Society...OUCH!!
I wrote the petition not Niska. While I'm a member of the SSBC I'm not a director.
I know JBJ is part of that group and am glad to see him post on this thread because he fishes both gear and fly which to me carries more weight than someone who is one sided. Don't be mistaken but to me this has everything to do with Fly Elitists trying to have their way.
How about this.....gear guys give up bait but fly guys are reduced to single hand only with tippet restriction, I wonder how that would fly? ;D
???
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name 1 river in BC where a bait ban has helped increase the number of returning steelhead !
Jim,
I don't fish the Thompson anymore, has that helped to increase the number of returning steelhead? You ask questions you know no one has the answer to and which are designed to further your agenda.
Except for the past 5 years or so I've fished the Thompson since the late 70's with all manner of gear. I know the relative effectiveness of the various gear types, something which is pointed out numerous times in the various Thompson creel surveys. The use of bait is much more effective. And yes I've inadvertently killed fish with all gear types too. That's one reason I don't fish it anymore.
All to often the pro bait crowd trots out the fly only boogeyman. This simply hasn't happened and will not happen, not on the Island or the Skeena, nowhere in the province. The truth is the province is moving away from (apparently) complicated angling regulations with regulation simplification.
Flossing steelhead on the Thompson? You gotta find one first. I don't think so.
Greg
petition author
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Iam not aware of any study determining that bait adversely affects steelhead, specifically Thompson river fish. Fish playing skills and adequate gear for the job, and proper handling will ultimately determine what happens to a fish once hooked.
I would welcome a study on the affects of fishing for thompson river fish with BOTH fly and gear...and see how fish respond to being hooked and played with both techniques. Im confident there would little if any difference. When i fish that river im usually using a 2/0 or 3/0 hook..pretty hard to gut hook a fish with that big of a hook
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I've looked into SARA protection for these fish but because there is political interference in the process no one with the technical background is willing to put in the time, although there was some agreement that the steelhead would qualify.
So, we're stuck with what we've got, or don't have. It seems the best we can do is minimize our impact and encourage others to do the same.
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If you're that concerned for the T steelhead shutdown the entire fishery, sure bait can cause injuries to fish but so can the houlier than tho spey fishermen. Late into the run when the fish have stacked up I've gotten fish and played them to hand to find spey flies stuck in their bodies. Another thing that I find funny is how spey fishermen think that they own that river and will actually threaten goo chuckers or go smash their vehicles because the guy with goo is fishing a "spey only" run which is not in the regs or rules stating that the run is fly only.
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i dislike idea of bait ban on the thompson. if such a drastic measure must be taken, why not limit it to the months of Oct to closing..that is if steelhead is open. my concern is the salmon and trout fishing experience june1 to when it closes in sept. i live to fish at this time with bait where permitted.
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Just a few figures to ponder. Over the last 28 years approximately 2200 wild steelhead have been taken by gear guys for our hatchery program on the Chilliwack River. Of that number I can only recall 2-3 fish that did not survive the initial transport back to the hatchery. Many of these fish were caught using bait and we had the occasional bleeder that recovered and went on to spawn. I would be more concerned about the number of Thompson fish that are being intercepted by first nations gill nets. Water use by farmers on some of the tributaries would also be a high priority.
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Increased hooking mortality from bait has been studied a lot in trout and other fish (don't know about steelhead specifically)...that's why bait bans are a very common management practice to protect vulnerable fish pops.
Taylor, M. J., and K. R. White. 1992. A meta-analysis of hooking mortality of nonanadromous trout. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 12: 760–767.
The results of 18 studies of hooking mortality of nonanadromous trout were integrated with meta-analysis......The analysis showed that trout caught on bait died at higher rates than trout caught on artificial flies or lures, that fish caught on barbed hooks had higher mortality rates than fish caught on barbless hooks, that brown trout Salmo trutta had lower mortality rates than other species of nonanadromous trout, and that wild trout died at higher rates than hatchery-reared trout.
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I thought there already was a bait ban in the Nahatlatch?
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Ban the spey fishermen, might not increase the fish but it would sure make the Thomson a more pleasant river to fish in. You can be well out of shouting distance and they'll still walk down and accuse you of taking away "their" water, one even told me they didn't like to see "you Vedder River types" up here didn't he realize that we'd been fishing the Thomson since long before anyone ever figured out how to floss with a two handed fly rod. I can't see how float fishing with bait could increase mortality and seeing as that is the most popular method of fishing steelhead by far why waste your time banning bait, falls under the heading of give me a break, go hug a tree.
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I don't think the argument is that bait causes gut hooking/higher mortality (anymore at least, as this was the argument at one point), rather now those for a bait ban say it would help the fishery by reducing 'repeat catches." The claim is that bait is more likely to catch a steelhead that has already been hooked. This doesn't have any scientific proof to back it up but is merely based on biased fisherman observation.
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Ban the spey fishermen, might not increase the fish but it would sure make the Thomson a more pleasant river to fish in. You can be well out of shouting distance and they'll still walk down and accuse you of taking away "their" water, one even told me they didn't like to see "you Vedder River types" up here didn't he realize that we'd been fishing the Thomson since long before anyone ever figured out how to floss with a two handed fly rod. I can't see how float fishing with bait could increase mortality and seeing as that is the most popular method of fishing steelhead by far why waste your time banning bait, falls under the heading of give me a break, go hug a tree.
I fish both spey and gear on the T if you low hole me I will be shouting too. ;) Vedder river types is exactly right as well.
The idea is to bring the T in line with other classified waters in BC. No Bait. Whats the big deal. ???
What about the fish? Too much of the me me me crowd out there. Put the fish first.
What are the pro-bait guys really afraid of??? I really dont get what they think they are losing.
Fishing is a privilege not a right.
Why should bait be allowed?
Bluesteele
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Yes the fish are the ones that we should be thinking of, so how about it is closed to all fishing while the steelhead are in until their numbers increase drastically.
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I would have no problem with closing it. I do believe in having eyes on the river so to speak. But we all get by with the Coq closed.
I hate that it's closed but if the fish arent their shut it down.
What about Squamish numbers. Bait ban and not alot of steelies.
Why should bait be allowed on the T ? Who's losing what if bait is banned?
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Starting bait bans could be the thin edge of the wedge. I would agree flossing with a spey rod is not a major issue on Thompson but we know it can be an effective fishing machine on rivers where fish are more numerous and stack up like they do on the Lower vedder late in the season in low water conditions. :o
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Yes the fish are the ones that we should be thinking of, so how about it is closed to all fishing while the steelhead are in until their numbers increase drastically.
How and when will this miracle happen? What about the people who live in towns like Spences Bridge who depend on the income from steelheaders? You likely know that the river is closed until a minimum of 800 steelhead pass the Albion test fishery.
Chris, unfortunately there are idiots with every gear type. Having a spey rod doesn't necessarily disqualify someone.
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So greg are you putting a price on steelhead? referring to the people of spences bridge .
Its kinda funny how many people get involved in issues like this on the net, but when it comes to the real projects/problems, most just sit at home behind the computer screen !
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I would have no problem with closing it. I do believe in having eyes on the river so to speak. But we all get by with the Coq closed.
I hate that it's closed but if the fish arent their shut it down.
just a note, the coq remains closed year after year by angler pressure ( a local group that always get flack) for the benifit of the fish, its not the numbers that keeps the coq closed , its the water conditions...too warm/low in august.
kinda funny a bunch of "gut chuckers" care more about the fish than the catching.......but if you were involved you would see the bigger issues!
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Why should bait be allowed?
Bluesteele
why should the same fly guys that want the bait ban, beat up on the fish at the "y" or several other spots through december on the T, I can name them and flyfishing with 15 feet of T-14 and lead eyed jigs just aint flyfishing !
drive up there in december and you will be suprised how many fly guys are there in december !
and staying at hilltop, ot steves house dose not help the local economy.
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I don't think the argument is that bait causes gut hooking/higher mortality (anymore at least, as this was the argument at one point), rather now those for a bait ban say it would help the fishery by reducing 'repeat catches." The claim is that bait is more likely to catch a steelhead that has already been hooked. This doesn't have any scientific proof to back it up but is merely based on biased fisherman observation.
pretty hard to gut hook them using a 3/0 hook....
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pretty hard to gut hook them using a 3/0 hook....
I wasn't saying it was. My point was that the reasoning behind the justification of the bait ban has changed as each reason gets proved false or invalid.
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--How about we just ban Experienced fishers from the Thompson... those who catch the majority of fish.
--Only sell licenses to those who demonstrate that they will not be able to catch the fish they have a licence to angle for.
--My personal preference is to not use bait... I do on occasion use scent where bait is allowed. Or as in some USA definitions all soft plastic scent or not is considered bait.
--I don't mind sharing the water with others who choose to use bait where legal.
--Fishing should be open or closed based on numbers of fish required and water conditions. Either there are enough fish for an opening or not.
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or some wash/oregon say artifical olny with the use of scent!
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How and when will this miracle happen? What about the people who live in towns like Spences Bridge who depend on the income from steelheaders? You likely know that the river is closed until a minimum of 800 steelhead pass the Albion test fishery.
Chris, unfortunately there are idiots with every gear type. Having a spey rod doesn't necessarily disqualify someone.
At no time have I ever seen posted results showing these numbers! My understanding is that it's done using a formula....ie. one fish caught by the test fishery equals a certain number that they think is passing by. Not very concrete in my opinion... an inaccurate guess most of the time!
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--I get a little tired of listening to guys that use split shot, weighted flies, spray floatant (no scent on that) and strike indicators claiming to be flyfishers and pushing these bans on all other forms of fishing.
--If you're going to fly fish use a dry fly, floating line and leader and no external weight or lead rapped flies.
--Put in a hatchery as proposed at Spencer's bridge and get stricter on the by-catch in the ocean and lower Frazer.
--Closing the fishery is just ignoring the problems, it is not a solution.
--The Petition should read... we the undersigned want a sustainable population of steelhead in the Frazer/Thompson river systems. Give us a comprehensive plan with targets and time frame as to how you are going to do this, set aside the money now for the project.
--If you can show me that this bait ban would be a significant factor in the recovery then I'd go for it but give me a break on these feel good rules that have little effect. If sport fishing is the main problem then ban it, no exceptions.
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BUMP
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If you ban bait,then close the river to everyone.Banning bait has no effect on the amount of fish returning.I prefer to chuck spoons on the T and dont use bait.Lets not harrass whats left of a once great fishery.SHUT IT DOWN!
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If you ban bait,then close the river to everyone.Banning bait has no effect on the amount of fish returning.I prefer to chuck spoons on the T and dont use bait.Lets not harrass whats left of a once great fishery.SHUT IT DOWN!
Bait has no effect on fish mortality. Wow thats a new one ! I guess you have the science to back that up??? ::)
You say shut it down but you chuck gear at em. hmmmm....
So what you are saying is you will fish it as long as it is open but out the other side of your mouth close it?
Guess I dont understand which side of the fence your trying too stand on. Sounds like both. ???
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Bait has no effect on fish mortality. Wow thats a new one ! I guess you have the science to back that up??? ::)
You say shut it down but you chuck gear at em. hmmmm....
So what you are saying is you will fish it as long as it is open but out the other side of your mouth close it?
Guess I dont understand which side of the fence your trying too stand on. Sounds like both. ???
Im in favor of closing it down.Against a bait ban even though i dont use bait.And will continue fishing it along side you and all the other fly guys who think they should be the only ones allowed to fish, chucking my spoons as long as it remains open.
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Close the areas around town to protect the stacked up fish that get harrassed and leave the rest the way it is.
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if you go up there in december you will find flyguys flinging T-14 and lead eyed jigs at those stale fish.
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I don't know about science to back me up but through personal observation from 26 years of fishing the Thompson with bait, spoons and spey I never had one bleeder with bait. I have had one pumper on a fly and two pumpers on a spoon. One on the spoon would have expired soon after since the spoon tore the flesh in the inside of the mouth from the gills forward to the jaw and the fish was in a cloud of blood. That fish was released and it swam away but I don't think there was anyway it lived, I have never thrown a spoon on the Thompson again since that day because I never wanted to have that happen again. On another side note me and a buddy just got back from 5 days on the Bulkley last week and we had 14 steelhead landed all on dry flys, it is all we threw all week long and we had 4 pumpers from fish hooked in the roof of their mouth. None were bleeding really heavy but any blood may be potentially to much. My worst bleeder was hooked around his tongue and it was pumping out pretty good. So maybe we should ban dry fly fishing on the Bulkley next.