Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Rodney on July 29, 2008, 02:33:30 PM
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http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/080729.html
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Anglers are being asked to bottom bounce so fish can be tagged?
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Do you need your own boat or will they transport you ?
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Also how does someone sign up. what if they get 100 people showing up for a free ride to grassy to try their luck for a spring. It also sounds a little fishy to me. I believe they will spin doctor the results to eliminate bottom bouncing. Call me skeptical but dont forget this is a government sponsored study ;) :P :-X :-\
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Why the scepticism?
If Rodney is announcing it, it must be a worthy cause. :)
I could do it the 5th in the afternoon (after 2:00 PM).
Let me know if that time frame works.
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Good grief, what a waste of taxpayers money. Do a study on the mortality rate of bottom bounced sockeye ??? Lot more worthy causes that money spent on studies like this could be spent on such as feeding the homeless in this province.
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They tried to get it off the ground last year but it did not happen. I believe there is a bar fishing componet to it as well. FVSS was going to be involved last year but the executive voted against it this time around
As well F/N are apparently involved in some aspects of this, that is what I was told.
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So the DFO and this organization called the Fraser Basin Council have started testing under the name Fraser Salmon and Watershed Program. They also look at flood control measures with no consideration of what that does to fish habitat. Kudo's to them that use deception with Government money and oranizational names that confuse and uninform people as to the real intent. It usually works.
Some info from Fraser Basin Council
http://www.fraserbasin.bc.ca/programs/basin_wide.html
There non-biased hand picked lineup
[color=yellow]Of the 36 Directors, 22 are appointed by the four orders of government: three by the federal government, three by the provincial government, one by each of the eight regional districts in the Basin, and one by each of the Basin's eight First Nations language groups. The remaining 14 Directors are non-governmental representatives appointed by the FBC. These 14 include two representatives from each of the Basin's five geographic regions, one Basin-wide representative for each of the three dimensions of sustainability (economic, social and environmental), and an impartial Chair.[/color]
Aboriginal and Non-Aboriginal Partnerships
One of the unique features of FBC is that First Nations are original signatories to the Charter for Sustainability and have participated fully in the FBC Board and its activities since FBC was established in 1997.
FBC is working to identify ways that it can more effectively apply Principle 11 of the Charter, which states: "We recognize that aboriginal nations within the Fraser Basin assert aboriginal rights and title. These rights and title now being defined must be acknowledged and reconciled in a just and fair manner."
To this end, FBC is working with First Nations Board members and its New Relationship Committee to:
Interpret the meaning of Principle 11 and its relevance to sustainability.
Explore ways that FBC can better demonstrate application of Principle 11 in its current and future activities.
Develop a reference document that constructively and objectively summarizes First Nations history in the Basin, relevant court decisions, current challenges and opportunities for applying Principle 11, and key lessons drawn from FBC's experience on improving cooperation between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people in the Fraser Basin.
For more information, contact:
Ernie Victor
Manager, Aboriginal Community Liaison
Tel: 604-997-9907
Email: evictor@fraserbasin.bc.ca
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Idle Free BC
Idle Free BC builds awareness among fleet managers and operators and the general public about the economic, environmental and health costs of idling, and encourages idling reduction programs. For upcoming workshops, visit the Idle Free BC website.
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Hybrid Experience Report: Online at www.hybridexperience.ca, the report documents the real-life experiences and fuel efficiency results of fleets that use hybrid vehicles. Simply put, a hybrid is a vehicle with an internal combustion engine and electric motor, powered by a large rechargeable battery. The Hybrid Experience website is unique in Canada, and has attracted national attention. It is a valuable resource for fleet managers, businesses and individuals contemplating hybrids.
Green Fleets Network: Sharing best practices is key to success, and Green Fleets BC is sponsoring a new network of fleet managers for just that reason.
Canada's Green Fuels Map: Interested in finding alternative fuels? Check out Canada's Green Fuels Map for an online lookup of both retail and key-lock stations, coast to coast.
Visit www.greenfleets.ca or contact Program Managers Jim Vanderwal or Terry Robert for more information.
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E3 Fleet Program
Designed by fleet managers for fleet managers, E3 Fleet is a new program to provide services and resources to help Canadian private and public sector fleets increase fuel efficiency, reduce emissions, manage expenses, incorporate new technologies and use alternative fuels. Launched in November, 2006, E3 Fleet has 16 charter member fleets committed to the program.
Pricing incentives were introduced in the fall of 2007 to encourage membership in the E3 Fleet program and amount to cost savings of 50%. For details, visit the E3 Fleet website or contact Program Manager Jim Vanderwal at jvanderwal@fraserbasin.bc.ca.
Through E3 Fleet membership, managers gain access to a new data analysis tool – Fleet Review – which generates exclusive reports and recommendations for reducing fuel, operating and capital costs as well as emissions for each fleet. The program will also offer the first green-rating system for vehicle fleets in North America. The rating system consists of four components: a Green Rating Guide, a points system for assessing each fleet, a third-party fleet audit and an ultimate rating at the Bronze, Silver, Gold, or Platinum level.
The FBC is pleased to spearhead the program launch of E3 Fleet, thanks to funding from Western Economic Diversification Canada and BC Ministry of Environment.
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Community Action on Energy and Emissions
Energy Efficiency and Buildings: A Resource for BC's Local Governments is now available online [PDF: 3.1 MB].
The Community Action on Energy and Emissions (CAEE) initiative provides financial and research support to BC local governments to advance energy efficiency through local government policy and planning tools. This initiative was previously called "Community Action on Energy Efficiency," but has been broadened to deal with renewable energy and sustainable transportation.
The CAEE is a key element of the Province's new Energy Plan 2007 and a cornerstone of the Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources' strategy document Energy Efficiency in Buildings: A Plan for BC, which outlines targets for new and existing residential, commercial, institutional and industrial buildings, to be reached by 2010.
The Fraser Basin Council provides overall program administration for this initiative, with funding support from BC Ministry of Energy and Mines, BC Ministry of Environment, Natural Resources Canada, Vancity, Real Estate Foundation, BC Hydro and Terasen Gas.
For more information, visit the CAEE initiative page on the BC Climate Exchange website.
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Flood Hazard Management
The Fraser Basin Council has worked for many years with government authorities advancing flood hazard management for the communities along the Fraser. For details, please see Flood Hazard Management.
Fraser Salmon and Watersheds
A new program is underway in the Fraser Basin to build a better future for fish and fisheries in the Fraser Basin through inclusive, collaborative partnerships.
The Fraser Salmon and Watersheds Program (FSWP) is a multi-year initiative to conserve and restore the diversity and abundance of salmon within the Fraser Basin. The FSWP began in 2007, with a contribution of $10 million over four years from the provincial Living Rivers Trust Fund and a further commitment of $10 million ($5M cash and $5M in-kind, over five years) from Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
The Fraser Salmon and Watersheds Program is jointly managed by the Fraser Basin Council (FBC) and the Pacific Salmon Foundation (PSF). A Steering Committee, with representatives from federal, provincial, and Aboriginal governments, as well as the two co-managing organizations and others, provides oversight to the program. Funding is administered through the Pacific Salmon Foundation.
The Fraser Salmon and Watershed Program is built on a vision: To inspire changes in human behaviour to the benefit of salmonids and the watersheds they depend on.
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The one other question I have is why would they do this study during a year where the run is suppose to be so low. If the run is so low why even risk the possibility of killing even one fish. Maybe the humane society of BC will show up as would this not be considered the inhumane treatment of a animal.
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Maybe the humane society of BC will show up as would this not be considered the inhumane treatment of a animal.
The act of fishing in itself is an inhumane one. Especially C&R.
But...we can live with it, can't we? ;)
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The one other question I have is why would they do this study during a year where the run is suppose to be so low. If the run is so low why even risk the possibility of killing even one fish. Maybe the humane society of BC will show up as would this not be considered the inhumane treatment of a animal.
Seriously?? A few.. even a few hundred out of hundreds of thousands is nothing. Perhaps PETA ought to get involved too....
::)
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Sounds like a great opportunity to get involved in the fisheries and make a few contacts... Also if you pause to think about why people would be interested in mortality rates from bottom bouncing, the net effect might be VERY positive for the fraser river fisheries, depending on how many fish get killed from BBing vs netting or what ever other method is used to catch control fish. Say for example, if every fish caught by one method dies, versus fish caught by other methods then the methods of fishing might be considered to be unacceptible during certain times or runs ect... In any case that is very valuable information, and sounds like a great idea.
Unfortunately (or maybe more like fortunately) at that time I will be in Norway somewhere fishing for who knows what... ;D Good luck with your study, and give'm heck :o Should be useful information what ever the outcome. (unless the fishers get into a giant brawl over tangled lines)
Jon
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Good grief, what a waste of taxpayers money. Do a study on the mortality rate of bottom bounced sockeye ??? Lot more worthy causes that money spent on studies like this could be spent on such as feeding the homeless in this province.
This is true but the homeless can help and fend for there self and this research can help the sockey that are defence less to being snagged.
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I am surprised that money would be spent on this survey, why not look into the damage caused by gravel removal from the fraser?
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I talked to vic from sts today....from what he said this is a flossing mortality study.....DFO hired natives to conduct the study and they were getting inexperienced anglers to catch the fish for the study.....he said he wanted to get as many experienced anglers as possible so the handling techniques dont taint the results.....i'm not sure if i can make it but he said he'll be shuttling people from island 22 to grassy.....
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Its amusing the natives are doing the study, what do you think the outcome is going to be?
;D
Nicole
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Stats is for manipulation. It can be determined to fit own need. So whatever the outcome it depends on the users intent.
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how are these fish going to be monitored
are they going to be held in some sort of tank or net/compound
just the stress from that should kill off some fish as they try to keep swiming up stream
but keep banging into a net wall
remember last years sokeye return on the allouette
they made it up to the dam and kept banging into it
talk about stress
also are springs included in this study?
is there going to be 24hr survielence
lets see large pen lots of sokeye nobody around :o
sounds mighty tempting ;)
as for the outcome of the study
i think it will give dfo ;) the proof they need
to impliment a gear restriction on the fraser
when sockeye is not open
it wont affect me but it will for quite alot of people
from guides to tackle shops and local economies
but first they need the proof that bottom bounced c+r sokeye =dead sockeye
cnm
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Just curious how today was and were there any immediate results that can be documented that the anglers saw?
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This is a waste of time.
A better study would be on how many of the 150,000 sockeye the FNs caught, were commercially sold.
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This study is NOT a waste of time. This is an opportunity to collect real, not anecdotal, data on sockeye caught by angling on the Fraser River. Data on mortality rates and the long and short term physiological stress endured by these fish when released is critical for DFO managers to make science based decisions. This study was first suggested about 15 years ago – kudos to the FSWP for funding this very necessary research.
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Good response Dave. Did you go and have a look yourself?
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Hey GHC
No, I am not involved in this study, other than a big time interest in the results. The contractor is respected, experts in DFO vetted this research, and I have huge respect for the people who represent the Fraser Basin Council.
The results will benefit fish and I like that.
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Posting this as requested.
Today was Day 1 of the recreational sockeye catch & release study. Anglers met with the biologist, Jim Thomas and DFO representative Debra Sneddon at 8:00 AM at Island 22 boat launch. We ferried fishermen to Grassy Bar and proceeded to catch fish. There were several periods of intense activity followed by seriously slow time. We had a total of 20 anglers today with 10 staying the entire time 8 - 3 pm. We attained our sample size of 30 fish for the day at 3:00 pm and called it a day. We will be meeting each morning from August 6 to 9th at 8:00 am at Island 22 boat launch. We will be fishing each day until we reach 30 -35 sockeye. If you are interested in participating please join us either at the boat launch or on the bar.
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Planning on going this Friday.
I have room for another three people in my truck.
Leaving from East Vancouver at 6:20AM, with a pit-stop at RFT & TH @ Whatcom Road at 7:00 AM.
Cheers,
Milo
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dam i cant do it this week but i am tying to talk my boss into
the next culling time
maybe get him in on it to
still havent heard if springs are involved
what happens then
how long are they holding these fish
not alot of info ??? ??? ???
cnm
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I was at Grassy bar yesterday .Me and two other guys were trying to get springs when the people from the study group asked us to join in the sockeye mortality study program.They would wait nearby with a bag to grab any sockeye we dragged in then put them in a net pen.They said they were going to put in a larger pen, hold the fish for 24hours to see which died.Sockeyes were large about 10 or so pounds.Nobody of the 30 or so people caught a spring that we were hoping for though it was all sockeye.Got some nifty hats from them though.They seem to be camping there but I think i saw a seal swimming in the river,better watch those pens!
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Hey ,troutmuncher, what weight betties work best at the study location?
I need to buy a few for tomorrow and would rather not go too heavy or too light.
Thanks.
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About 2 or 2.5 ...but the guys running the study have some weights,hooks,leader that you are welcome to use.
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Thanks, shaunm. :)
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I am curious to know where the fish are being kept? If the pens are in the slack water on the backside bottom part of grassy then you can expect a very high mortality as the water is not moving very fast and the water temp will be a problem, slow backwater surface temps are at 65 degrees right now, not good for sockeye. I ask this as I drove buy there yesterday and that is where it looked like they where keeping the fish.I hope I am mistaken. These fish need to be kept in water that has some depth and flow for proper accurate results. I hope for a accurate result so that many questions can be finally answered.
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The pens are located at the bottom of the bar. But from what I witnessed today, all were VERY much alive & well when yesterdays catches were being released. I understand this has been the case each day.
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We were useing 2 oz betties,the small pen was on the downstream bottom of Grassy bar.Glad to hear they are still alive.The dead ones floating upside down get a small dna sample taken out of them to the lab,guess the rest of the fish gets the barbeque sauce taste test proceedure. ;D
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This study should also consider the fish that go belly up in the canyon, there were reports of many dead socks two summers ago up that way, floaters in back eddies.
They might swim away, but some of the most difficult water to travel still remains.
Cheers,
Nicole
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Are the fish that are released taged ???? If they should die in the canyon at least they know where they came from .
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Any new stats on Suvival?
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Are the fish that are released taged ???? If they should die in the canyon at least they know where they came from .
Excellent point.
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what does dieing in the canyon have to do with with the study? ???
un-molested fish die in the canyon.
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what does dieing in the canyon have to do with with the study? ???
un-molested fish die in the canyon.
Ya, Your right... Fish could be stuck in a couple of nets and get loose before the canyon.
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Is water temperature a major factor too?
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warmer the water the more fragile they will be.
when the water is very cold they are tuff as nails.
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Ya, Your right... Fish could be stuck in a couple of nets and get loose before the canyon.
[/quote]
First Nation were involved in the study & netting the day I was there...so hopefully the results of all this will help.
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Ive heard they could be 5yr ones,they sure look big.I think they do tag em.Those fatsos should be full of eggs to replenish the stock so I hope the survival rate is good.Also I have a problem with my spinning reel a Tidewater SS Shakespeare it made casting my bouncing betty a real chore to cast since it weights like 2 friggin pound anvil. Should I sell it or just use it as a dumb paperweight?
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The bigger ones are probably 5 yr olds - some runs have fish that stay longer at sea. Pitt is an example of this.
I sampled a rather large 5 yr old - 12.4 lbs and 72.3 cm long that was taken in a PSC test fishery last week
(http://gallery.flybc.ca/albums/album331/12_4_lbs_Sockeye.jpg)
Yes I'm holding it out, but its still a big fish
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It's interesting why FSWP all of a sudden is undertaking on a study to determine mortality rates of angled sockeye, when at the same time first nations has a TLC of 500,000 fish.
I would be more concerned about trying to reduce catch quotes and let more fish on the spawning than undertake a questionable study.
Holding sockeye in a pen in itself will cause physiological stress that may not be apparent and may have a long term impact. Will these fish make it to the spawning grounds ?
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warmer the water the more fragile they will be.
when the water is very cold they are tuff as nails.
I have to disagree with that as in 1998 it was a record high for water temp in the canyon. Do you remember 4 years later 2002 that it was the largest run in many years...maybe 50+. Since then I have always debated the DFO saying the water is too warm and they have to close the river. What the warmer water does is change the fish quick so they spawn faster and do not pickup diseases waiting for the right time. 2002 could of been a combination of a lot of different things including survival rate in the ocean but the stats were there. Now a days it's just the plain number of nets. i wouldn't think that the FN 100+ years ago would have 100+ nets in the river from Mission to hope. Just over 100 was counted in 1 day between those to points.
Cheers, Rob
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Also a couple years back maybe 4, not sure but 1 million fish dissappeared between Mission and Hope. They installed tha new sonar ???? at mission to record fish moving through. Any one have that web site? Lost the link.
Cheers
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Just came back from two days of flossing sockeye for a good cause.
I am pleased to report that the fish is so far doing quite well, the mortality being only two fish out of more than a hundred caught over a five day period.
And of the two fatalities, one had been foul hooked by the belly. The cause of death of the second fish is as of yet undetermined.
The fish are tagged and kept in special pens in the back channel at the lower end of Grassy, where, according to the people in charge, they have good current.
DNA samples were taken from a small number of surviving fish which are sacrificed for that purpose.
Some of the fish was treated (deliberately) in an abusive and unsporty manner, varying from dragging them over the rocks and letting them flop around on the beach for a while, to playing them for too long with light gear. A good mix of experienced and inexperienced rods took part in the study.
I was particularly impressed by the survival of one of the fish I caught yesterday, which came to the beach with some severe seal wounds on the belly. The buck made it!!! :) It survived a seal attack, it survived my interception and subsequent battle...WOW! ;D
The biologist in charge and his team of collaborators are a class act, and I am very pleased to have taken part in this study.
I hope to be able to head out one or two more times before the study is completed.
Keep your fingers crossed for this excellent survival trend to continue in stage 2 and 3 of the study, as the results of this study may very well determine the future of our Fraser sockeye opportunities.
Springs were few and far between, but we did manage to get into a few. I landed one yesterday, but it was two centimeters over the slot limit, so it was released.
The weather today was literally horrendous, to the point that I questioned my sanity in being there. ;)
Off to the Okanagan tommorow and then to Vancouver Island as of next weekend, so I won't be online for a while.
My vacation has officially started! :)
Enjoy my absence. :P
Milo
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Thanks Milo for the update. I agree, the team involved are a class act & make you feel extremely welcome to be involved too. I was lucky enough to land an 87 cms spring on Thursday.
Hope to meet you out there later this month. Have a good vacation.
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Week one of the pilot sockeye catch & release mortality study has been completed. An average of 12 anglers/day participated (daily counts Tuesday to Saturday - 16, 7, 11, 10 and 16). A consistent 15 - 20 anglers per day should enable us to acquire sufficient fish for the study. To date, 123 sockeye have been captured and held for 24 hour observation.
This study is comprised of two components with the primary goal being to derive an estimate of the short-term (24 hour) mortality of recreationally caught sockeye salmon. An additional objective is to determine the influence of selected variables on hooking mortality rates. Some of the variables include hook size, hooking location, water temperature and play time.
This study is also allowing us to gain a better understanding of the physical condition of fish released. The fundamental assumption of catch-and-release is that released fish will have minimal impairments and will ultimately survive. However, little is known about the extent of physical injury caused by recreational angling for sockeye in the Fraser River, and less is known about how this activity affects recovery rates and short-term survival. While visual assessments can be effective for obvious physical injury, forensic approaches are also being used for accurately determining the extent of physical injury. For the forensic portion of the study we are either sampling fish caught immediately by anglers or after the 24 holding period. Fish sampled immediately are not being used in the mortality estimate and we are ensuring that we are meeting our primary goal of attaining a large enough sample size to determine the catch & release mortality estimate. This work will also be compared with fish captured in a variety of other fisheries and gears including purse seine, troll, gillnet, fish wheels and dip nets in marine and freshwater environments.
We are still seeking interested volunteers to assist us in the study. We can accommodate up to 35 anglers each day of the study. If you are interested please join us at the location and time noted below.
Meeting Location and Time: Island 22 boat launch each day of the study at 8:00 AM. Transportation will be available for those without boats.
Location of Study: Grassy Bar - a portion of the bar will be marked off and used solely for the purpose of the study
Timing of Study: the next two 5 day time periods start August 19th and August 29th
Notes:
Did you witness suspicious fishing activity or a violation? If so, please call the Fisheries and Ocean Canada 24-hour toll free Observe, Record, Report line at (800) 465-4336.
For the 24 hour recorded opening and closure line, call toll free at (866) 431-FISH.
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I'll be camped out at the Vedder River so will get out on the 29th period. As for the 18th I can't make it due to work but I passed it on to a buddy who is off on holidays then.
Cheers, Rob
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Today was the day I was to take a Chilliwack Progress reporter and photo journalist down in the Leaf Craft so they could do a story and shoot some pictures on this study. Of course to tell the truth I was interested in what was going on as well. Of course all know of my stance on TOW ing so I would not take part in this method of taking a fish.
I arrive at Island 22 In plenty of time to get the Leaf Craft ready and fired up, I was organized for a change, so I thought.
The Progress crew arrive and I load them into their seats and hand out the life jackets.
I turn the key and the motor sputters and coughs, is she telling me something like, you should not be going to this study. ;D
I am of course embarrassed as my guests sit patiently and most likely are thinking what kind of operator is this. I do not know what is wrong other than I know I have flooded the motor in my haste to get going.
Finally I get the motor going, after another 15 minutes of trying and down we go in the direction of Grassy Bar but I have little power, what going on?
I decide to keep going as the current will carry us there and we will worry about getting back later. I phone Frank and tell him if we stop all together we will need a tow. :-[
One of my passengers, the reporter who has to write all about the recent drowning on the Chilliwack River looks a little uneasy. I assure her things are fine and our trip that should take 5 will instead take 15. The photo journalist who has ridden in the Leaf Craft a few times is not concerned.
We finally reach Grassy and the girls get out to get their story while I arrange for a ride back for them and a FOC chap offers to tow the Leaf Craft back to the Island 22, for the second time this year she has been embarrassed.
The study is being conducted well and a couple of dozen people are TOW ing while 5 rods are bar fishing, separate from the study, my rod joins the other 5 bar rods. I meet a number of FOC people involved and a few people I know from past years.
While we are there for around a hour I see about 3 sockeye hooked and only one caught and goes to the crew to do their work which I donot see what goes on as my ride is ready to go.
The down part to me was seeing 3 chinooks hooked, one being chased in a boat not sure if they got it in or not.The other two beautiful chinooks were both landed, one after 20 minutes or more of fighting it from the shore.
I was glad it was time to go as seeing these fish taken this way hurt me but I guess it was in the name of science some would say but I cannot be convinced this is the way to take a fish under any circumstances. Watch for Thursday or Friday's Chilliwack Progress for the story and photo.
I guess I will go to the Thompson again one day soon and slaughter a few more biting jacks.
O before I forget, I am red faced to tell you what was wrong with the motor when I took it to Dr. Ernie and Chad , retirement is great but now nearly reaching 65 it seems yours truly is losing a few brain cells, many have said that happen long before 65. ;D ;D
I will once again now take my frustration out on the badminton court this evening.
NB. The bar rods remained silent during the time I was there but I was told 2 of the rods had lost 3 before we arrived even though the water conditions were not that great, around a foot visibility.
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Week 1 summary:
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/file/080820.pdf
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The bigger ones are probably 5 yr olds - some runs have fish that stay longer at sea. Pitt is an example of this.
I sampled a rather large 5 yr old - 12.4 lbs and 72.3 cm long that was taken in a PSC test fishery last week
(http://gallery.flybc.ca/albums/album331/12_4_lbs_Sockeye.jpg)
Yes I'm holding it out, but its still a big fish
Thats an interesting fish. If that was during the so called "test fishery" then it is dead. His eyes are glosy and blank. I totally disagree with the test fishery and why it is happening. Most of the fish WILL dye due to being in tubs.
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maybe most of them will die nasty , but as of next year the dfo will have more knowledge on how to save more sockeye . the number of dead sockeye from this study will be nowhere close to the number of sockeye saved in the future
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Interesting results from the first week.
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The bigger ones are probably 5 yr olds - some runs have fish that stay longer at sea. Pitt is an example of this.
I sampled a rather large 5 yr old - 12.4 lbs and 72.3 cm long that was taken in a PSC test fishery last week
(http://gallery.flybc.ca/albums/album331/12_4_lbs_Sockeye.jpg)
Yes I'm holding it out, but its still a big fish
Thats an interesting fish. If that was during the so called "test fishery" then it is dead. His eyes are glosy and blank. I totally disagree with the test fishery and why it is happening. Most of the fish WILL dye due to being in tubs.
The testfishery is totally different than the C&R study. Of course the fish in the pic is dead,it was caught in a gillnet.
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maybe most of them will die nasty , but as of next year the dfo will have more knowledge on how to save more sockeye . the number of dead sockeye from this study will be nowhere close to the number of sockeye saved in the future
And how will this test fishery save more sockeye in the future???????
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It's interesting why FSWP all of a sudden is undertaking on a study to determine mortality rates of angled sockeye, when at the same time first nations has a TLC of 500,000 fish.
I would be more concerned about trying to reduce catch quotes and let more fish on the spawning than undertake a questionable study.
Holding sockeye in a pen in itself will cause physiological stress that may not be apparent and may have a long term impact. Will these fish make it to the spawning grounds ?
I agree that this is a pointless study when FN is allowed to take hundreds of thousands of fish while we are asked to leave sockeyes alone. So what if a few socx die by recreational c&r while going after springs? In the overall picture of stock management and species survival, the sporties' accidental catch is peanut to FN's massive killing of socx in a low cycle year, not to say most of the c/r sockeyes live. DFO should be more concerned that the seals are causing much more damage to the stock than us sporties and the so called FSC fishery for FN is ending up in black markets. All these postures of the study are just to make the smoke screen so DFO can further limit fishing opportunities to recreational fishermen. I won't shed a drop of tear for DFO if their license sales for next year is dismal.
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I could'nt agree more SH, our accidental catch is peanut's to FN's massive wipeout but year in and year out its us sporties who are viewed either as the bad guy who must be controlled or we turn against ourselves with that never ending mantra about bb'ing. And then another season eclipses with us having seen and heard the same old arguments but the song remains the same. Oh Well, there's always next year. :( :) ::) :P
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I hope the springs were released.
The ones I saw taken that day were retained.
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Ya and they don't need to be net. They should be left along. ::)
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I was thinking of going out
what if there are more than the 35 volunteers there? I wouldn't want to get out there and not be able to participate.
As well, can you keep the springs?
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They have been averaging much less than 35 volunteers per day so that should not be a problem, and yes you can keep the Springs.
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Week two summary:
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/file/080827.pdf
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With the reduced catch numbers and dropping numbers in the test fishery this week, I think that very few sockeye will be caught this week. Springs on the other hand, may be worth trying for.
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Part two of the sockeye C&R study will be taking place in August 2009.
Fisheries and Oceans Canada has scheduled the three five-day sampling periods to begin on August 10th, 17th and 24th respectively. We plan to start fishing each day at 8:00am until we reach our goal for that day or 2:30pm, which ever comes first. The study will be conducted again on Grassy Bar, just downstream from Island 22 boat launch. Volunteer anglers at different skill levels are needed, no sign-up is required. For those needing a boat ride to/from the location, the group will be meeting each day at 7:30am at Island 22 and returning at 2:30pm. There is no need to sign up in advance, just come on by. Please make sure you park in the appropriate parking area for your vehicle type.
Given the extremely hot temperatures out there please make sure you bring enough liquids to keep yourself hydrated, your sunscreen, bug repellant and hats.
Similar to last year you need to provide your own rod, reel and line and if you want your terminal tackle. If you prefer we will have a selection of weights, leader and wool available.
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Well folks we have scheduled the three five day sampling periods to begin on August 10th, 17th and 24th respectively. We plan to start fishing each day at 8:00 until we reach our goal for that day or 2:30 which ever comes first. The study will be conducted again on Grassy Bar, just downstream of the Island 22 boat launch. For those needing a ride to/from the location we will be meeting each day at 7:30 at Island 22 and returning at 2:30. There is no need to sign up in advance, just come on by. Please make sure you park in the appropriate parking area for your vehicle type.
Given the extremely hot temperatures out there please make sure you bring enough liquids to keep yourself hydrated, your sunscreen, bug repellant and hats.
Similar to last year you need to provide your rod, reel and line and if you want your terminal tackle. If you prefer we will have a selection of weights, leader and wool available.
We're looking for volunteer anglers of all experience levels so come on out and join us. If you have any questions please give me a call.
As unpopular as my response will be this is what I sent to FOC and others.
I may be in the minority but I can not endorse a study that involves catching fish that are not biting. Not intended to start a flossing debate once again but I can not stand still and support something that I think is wrong.
Thanks Deb,
With the low returns of sockeye now forecast and with extreme water warming I think this study should be suspended for this year as each and every sockeye possible should be given the best chance possible of reaching their natal streams.
Regards and thanks for this consideration.
Chris
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Couldn't agree more Chris! Rodney, I respect what you are trying to accomplish, but I do not agree with holding these fish in a pen for 24 hrs. to see what mortality rates are and like Chris I don't agree with the method used to catch these sockeye. If this study has to be done would it not be possible to radio tag these fish and release them immediately to continue on their way and set up telemetry at their natal rivers to see how many make it? Gord.
Hi Gord, Rodney is just passing the information from FOC along, thats all. See you on the flow.
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Yeah, I guess we should just give up on trying to demonstrate that sockeye are resilient enough to survive being hooked as incidental bycatch when fishing for springs so that DFO can once and forever shut down the Fraser to all kinds of recreational salmon fishing, as is the wish of the FN.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. ::)
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Yeah, I guess we should just give up on trying to demonstrate that sockeye are resilient enough to survive being hooked as incidental bycatch when fishing for springs so that DFO can once and forever shut down the Fraser to all kinds of recreational salmon fishing, as is the wish of the FN.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. ::)
Not going to get into this flossing debate in respect to this forum as it has been discussed enough over the years with all points made over and over again, however what you are saying is true, unless the majority of angler choose not to fish selectively when there is stocks of concern in the system we will reach the point you make in a hurry.
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Yeah, I guess we should just give up on trying to demonstrate that sockeye are resilient enough to survive being hooked as incidental bycatch when fishing for springs so that DFO can once and forever shut down the Fraser to all kinds of recreational salmon fishing, as is the wish of the FN.
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. ::)
Thanks Milo. Finally someone looking at the big picture.
It bothers me when I keep hearing these comments about how individuals dissaprove of bottom bouncing. This is a legal method of fishing folks, let's get over it! I have a big problem with the use of bait for steelhead in the vedder. Often a steelhead will swallow the bait and the likelyhood of a steelhead surviving after being released is probably low. But this is a legal method of fishing!
The comments are getting old. These are fish being caught for food. Is it more sporting or humane to use a bar rod, bb gear or a native net. How is it somehow more sporting to take a chinook on a bar rod? I submit it doesn't make a hoot of difference. When you buy chicken at your grocery store.... do you ask how it was caught?? ???
All you are doing by continually harping on a particular legal fishing technique is dividing the sporting community. That's not neccessary....
The sockeye study is important! If sockeye mortality rates were high as a result of being caught and released the FN would use that information to argue that we should be off the river! IT is important that the river remain open to fishing during the sockeye run. We are the eyes and ears on the river. The groups that take liberties to illegally catch more than their share of the fish would have a free rein to do whatever, as DFO does not have the resources to be everywhere at once.
So please, if you need to hold your nose on the BB issue then do so. As Milo says "Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. ::)"
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Legal or not, water temperatures have hit 21 degrees celsius and mortality rates are high, the extra stress from bb will guaranteed another one for the seaguls. BB should be banned during this period!
Bait for steelhead.... swallowing? Its does happen, but rarely, for me anyways. Have you ever tried cutting the the leader and leaving the hook, those barbless hooks will fall out the next day. Thats assuming there was no internal damage done.
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The point was: "how does the C&R study effect the big picture......" these silly disagreements are just distractions.
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Exactly. Like Gord was saying, how can a flossed sockeye be accurately tested on C&R mortality, when the overwhelming water temperatures are a serious threat to the fish to begin with? Like I said already, anymore stress on the fish, and it will die.
I am going to have to disagree with the study at this time during this sockeye crisis. Why not have the study done another year when the waters are cooler?
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Let me be the devil's advocate here for a moment. If sockeyes can survive being caught and released in this water temperature, they can survive normal Fraser River temperatures.
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Let me be the devil's advocate here for a moment. If sockeyes can survive being caught and released in this water temperature, they can survive normal Fraser River temperatures.
Is that the new test for the C&R study? :) If thats what it takes to prove it, then Im sure some sockeye will step up to prove whats right.
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Here's my beef: All this study will prove is that a sockeye can be flossed, sampled, put in a cage overnight and then released and called alive. What happens to these fish after they are released near Island 22? Will they make it through the onslaught to Hope, possibly being hooked several more times on the way? Will they make it through the rapids of the canyon to Williams Lake? Can they then survive the Chilcotin, Quesnel, Horsefly, Chilko, etc.. to their spawning grounds? All of this in 21 degree water which we know is detrimental? ???
The impact of C&R on these fish is to me a moot point. They should not be caught and released on our bars period... If you want to call it a meat harvest then kill your fish and quit. If there aren't enough fish to open a harvest then don't fish for them. We can still fish selectively for other species. Angling involves provoking a fish to bite. We need to clean up our act and all get back to angling not snagging.
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Bederko
Results from last year showed that sockeye could be caught and held 24 hours without killing them. Wow!!
What they should be doing is holding these fish from 10 - 14 days and then and only then would they get
a true picture of survival rates.
Last year a number of sockeye were transported to Cultus Lab for study and they looked good for the first few
days, but after 2 weeks were fungused and dieing. With water temperatures expected to be 21 deg. stress
prior to even being caught and handled is a real problem.
Water temperatures in the Nechako River would be even higher than those in the Fraser. One can only a speculate
how many fish are going to be lost on route to the spawning grounds, but I think we will be shocked when the final numbers are released.
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Julius Ceasar said: "Divide and impera" (Divide and conquer).
And here we are, one of the three fishing groups being divided over our different methods of fishing, demonstrating to the world that we are not worthy of our sport. Instead of uniting and creating a common front with only one mandate: BEING ALLOWED TO FISH REGARDLESS OF THE METHOD, we bitch, bicker and call each others flossers, snaggers, bait chuckers, fly fishing elitists and the like. What method we use has no bearing whatsoever on the survival of the fish. What method we use does not affect water temeratures. What method we use does not impact ocean survival or sea lice issues.
Fishing or not fishing is the issue at stake.
Make no mistake, fellows, we are making it a lot easier for FN, PETA, fish farmers and other anti-recreational fishing interest groups to drive us off the flow. Smarten up, guys, and start barking up the right tree!
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Truer words were never spoken!
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Buck,
I agree with your years of hatchery wisdom, I've seen the fungus that occurs after the fact and I can't imagine those fish making it all the way up North. The methodology of the study is flawed in my opinion...
On the issue of division, it comes down to a poor sockeye run size this year. We as sport fishermen may not control all of the causes for this but we are obligated to not make the problem worse. Why do we have to catch these fish? Why are so many guys SO angry and adamant that they get their sockeye? There are other fish to catch and we can do so without impacting the sockeye that are in trouble. Until the 90's, none of us even had the chance to fish for sockeye in the Fraser. All of this anger has built up in the last 15 years and now it sounds like a bunch of selfish kids, "this toy isn't good enough I want that one!"
Milo, I'm sorry but I will never agree with you that this should be our mandate: "BEING ALLOWED TO FISH REGARDLESS OF THE METHOD". You can shout it through the keyboard all you like, it's wrong. I can't believe you would actually pull out a net or a stick of dynamite, so why would you write this?? Please explain to me why you feel this study is so important...
Respectfully,
Bederko
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Unless the study proves that our impact is negligible, the Fraser will be closed to recreational salmon fishing during sockeye migration (basically, most of the summer). This study has been commissioned by FN, who wants us off the water.
Why is it so hard for some of you to understand?
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Do you believe we should be C&R sockeye when there aren't enough fish to meet spawning escapements? Why do we need a study that supports this? I thought sockeye was a "meat fishery", if it is then it should only be open when the numbers allow and guys should be harvesting their fish and going home.
The Fraser doesn't need to be closed during sockeye migration if we would just stop targeting them. We can effectively catch chinooks and pinks while virtually eliminating the sockeye bi-catch. Let's have a study to prove that... Why is this so hard for some of you to understand?
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Do you believe we should be C&R sockeye when there aren't enough fish to meet spawning escapements? Why do we need a study that supports this? I thought sockeye was a "meat fishery", if it is then it should only be open when the numbers allow and guys should be harvesting their fish and going home.
The Fraser doesn't need to be closed during sockeye migration if we would just stop targeting them. We can effectively catch chinooks and pinks while virtually eliminating the sockeye bi-catch. Let's have a study to prove that... Why is this so hard for some of you to understand?
In the big picture, yes, I think we can sacrifice a few fish.
I advocated years ago for the same things as you do now.
Unfortunately, it won't happen. If the study shows sockeye mortality from angler hookup is high, we'll be off the water during sockeye migration. No bar fishing, no flossing, no spoons...nada. They want us off the water entirely. Got it?
Fortunately, the results of the first year are encouraging. It seems sockeye are resilient little buggers and can take a hook or two and still live.
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Unless the study proves that our impact is negligible, the Fraser will be closed to recreational salmon fishing during sockeye migration (basically, most of the summer). This study has been commissioned by FN, who wants us off the water.
Why is it so hard for some of you to understand?
If it does close it is because people will not fish selectively, thats the bottom line in this matter. On a positive note, thank goodness , many anglers are now seeing it this way and are now bar fishing to get away from hooking sockeye during this period of concern due to ;low returns and warm river temperatures. When bar fishing, only a handful of sockeye are hooked each year.
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Milo
I think you are correct when you say the natives want use off the water. However, I do not agree with your statement that sockeye can be hooked a couple of times and make it too the spawning
grounds. With temperatures reaching 21 Degrees C these fish should not be handled at all. Holding these fish for 24 hours, with little or no mortality only shows that they can survive for the short
term. Hold them for ten days at those temperatures and see what you get.
As far as the catch and release study that is ongoing , the Biologist in charge should know the the consequences on handling fish at these temperature.
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Milo
I think you are correct when you say the natives want use off the water. However, I do not agree with your statement that sockeye can be hooked a couple of times and make it too the spawning
grounds. With temperatures reaching 21 Degrees C these fish should not be handled at all. Holding these fish for 24 hours, with little or no mortality only shows that they can survive for the short
term. Hold them for ten days at those temperatures and see what you get.
As far as the catch and release study that is ongoing , the Biologist in charge should know the the consequences on handling fish at these temperature.
Thanks buck for sharing your experience and knowledge in this matter, much appreciated by myself and others I am sure.
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In an ideal world, we would have a 3-foot leader restriction and adequate enforcement of said rule. Unfortunately, based on previous years' experience, it won't happen. It's either going to be black (no fishing at all for the recreational sector) or white (all angling methods allowed).
I am not going to delude myself into believing that we will get a set of strict regs that will leave the Fraser river open to bar fishers and spooners but closed to bottom bouncers. No matter how nice it would be, it just won't happen. :(
Being mostly a fly fisherman, any decision affecting the Fraser has little impact on me personally, but I would certainly like to see all my recreational fishing brethren regardless of their chosen style being able to enjoy the fishery.
As for the water temperatures, I would wholeheartedly suggest to close the river to all angling once the mercury in the thermometer hits 20.5 C
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As far as I am concerned they can go ahead and ban bottom bouncing, restrict the leader length down to 24 inches or restrict fishing to using a triangular shaped weight of no less than 10 ounces.
This is not going to happen for several reasons:
1) Fisheries is already short of staff and cannot enforce the rules that are already in place. They realize that there is no point in putting in rules that can't be enforced!
2) The government wants/needs the license revenue. If you put restrictions on the type of gear you would eliminate the sockeye fishery, most of the chinook fishery and as a result $1000's of dollars of license revenue and economic benefit to the local communities.
3) From a practical point of view it would be impossible to fit all of the fishermen that bottom bounce onto the good bar fishing bars. Can you imagine taking all the bottom bouncing fishermen from Peg Leg and packing them on the Maple Leaf bar with their 16 oz weights? Chris, maybe you could start a water taxi service with the Leaf Craft. ;D
4) FN wants sports fishermen off the river. They would prefer to do their illegal fishing without being under the scrutiny of the public. (Let's not put our heads in the sand on this issue as this is really the issue we should be arguing and complaining about. I believe it has a much greater impact on the fishery than a few sporties bouncing for springs) Limiting the gear would eliminate the fishermen.
So back to Milo's point... We need to get realistic, band together and quit fighting each other. The sockeye C&R test fishery is a necessary exercise that hopefully will prove that BB'ing fishermen have minimal impact on the sockeye. And questioning the science behind holding the fish for 24 hours or 24 days is pointless. I am sure that DFO is gathering as much data as they can in order to be prepared to win a case against FN when they ultimately insist the river be closed to sportfishermen. FN could care less whether we bottom bounce, they ultimately want us off the river no matter what type of gear we use!
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Just to throw in my penny's-worth. If we want to show how concerned we are as anglers and conservationists, then WE should be telling 'the powers that be' that we are not going to carry out any survey involving the catching of sockeye given the current water temperatures. The fish are under enough stress already without us doing this survey when the water temperatures are so high. Not only that, the data collected will always be suspect!
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That will be the day when i go out to a river to prove that flossing is ok.
This whole thing stinks.
Why does the Government hand out contracts and then have the contractor using volunteers to do the leg work.
Is this contractor Volunteering there time also?Na,didnt think so.
Milo,ive seen you at this game now for years.
Ive aslo seen your tune change to fit the dance and its getting a little old.
Remember when you stood vehemently behind the Sockeye are biting the wool camp and then once that theory was shot all to heck you jumped onto the this is only a harvest bandwagon.
Along with many others that feel the need to snag fish this is now apperently an ok way to fish for Chinook now also.
I dont believe in your sky is falling BS either. ::)
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Can't resist taking shots at me, eh, Bruce? :o
Sure, I'd been deluded into thinking sockeye bite - haven't we all?
As for changing my stance over the years, nothing wrong with that in my books. It reflects an angler's new understanding of issues.
I stand by what I've said before: if the numbers are good, let all recreational angler's have at it. If not, close the darn river altogether.
Flossing a fish is no different from feeding it guts anyways.
Both take some effort and little skill, and it makes no difference to the fish. :D
Anyway, keep shooting, Bruce - I sure make your online life more interesting, don't I? ;)
And BTW, sincere congrats on the new job, but it sure cuts down on your online time, eh?
Have fun this summer.
I am soon off to Europe with my son, but I will be back in time for the peak of the salmon season. Don't worry, I won't be flossing, at least not deliberately. ;D
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I have not bottom bounced in over 6 or 7 years. I learned that they didnt bite so I stopped. Do I believe they should ban bottom bouncing on the Fraser? Nope I dont. If any of you seriously think that sporties are making any kind of dent in the sockeye populations your crazy. The few fish they take is a drop in the bucket. Like Milo said we all need to come together and stop debating this stupid topic.
If the river temps go above 20 degrees they need to completely close the river to EVERYONE!!! And enforce it.
They are calling for a cooling trend so lets hope that it brings down the rivers temperature.
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I dont understand the close the river idea?
Lets just close the Sockeye fishery and get back to the river and type of fishing we had for all those years before this disgusting and harmfull way of snagging took place.
There is no need to close the river if people arent targeting Sockeye,but if they continue to fish this way then yes we stand the chance of the river being closed to all and that would be a real shame.
Milo,im not taking shots at you buddy,im just on the opposite side of the fence on this issue and wont sit here and take some the crap that some are trying to shovel out.
So dont take it personal and it doesnt matter who posts on this subject ,my views will never change in regards to snagging
As far as the new job goes,thanks for the congrats.Im really liking it and i actually have more time off than i ever did. ;
Have a nice trip to Europe.
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From the daily today. I found the caption under the picture interesting. It said, "Sockeye salmon with wounds that indicate snagging or flossing by sports fisherman are being spotted upriver by First Nations observers."
As a number of us having being saying those that contiue this activity during a period of concern and low sockeye returns could be causing the river to be closed to us all. Lets hope most will cease this activity before it is too late.
Chris
Halt sport fishery to save sockeye: Crey
Sports fishing on the Fraser River.
Tyrone McNeil
Published: July 31, 2009 4:17 PM
Updated: August 04, 2009 10:42 AM
Sport angling on the Fraser River should be shut down quickly to prevent a catastrophe for returning sockeye salmon, says Sto:lo fisheries advisor Ernie Crey.
Anglers on the river aren't currently allowed to target sockeye, but some catch them either accidentally or deliberately by snagging them while officially fishing for other species, like sturgeon or chinook salmon.
Crey says the species can't afford to take any more hits this season in light of what's already shaping up to be a low return, coupled with dangerously high river temperatures that may kill many of the sockeye that do arrive before they can spawn.
"DFO should, with some reasonable notice, tell anglers to get off the water until we get a better understanding of the sockeye numbers overall," Crey said.
Biologists had forecast a healthy run of 10.6 million sockeye this summer, but so far the Pacific Salmon Commission says the runs are all coming in much lower than expected.
The commission warned the hot dry weather and low stream flows in the Interior may prove deadly to returning sockeye.
The river reached a temperature of 20.7 degrees on July 30 – 3.4 degrees higher than normal and above the 20-degree threshold that triggers high death rates in salmon.
And it's projected the water temperature may climb further to 21.4 degrees by Aug. 8 – a record for that date.
The last time the water got this hot, Crey says he witnessed disoriented sockeye swimming around in circles that could easily be picked up by hand.
"They made no effort to swim away," he said. "Their instinct for survival was completely sapped by the warm river water."
Commercial fishing has so far been blocked and aboriginal food fisheries remain closed after a very brief opening earlier in July.
Crey said he doesn't believe there can reasonably be new openings for any sector unless counts of returning sockeye improve dramatically.
Wayne Goeson, an area director with the B.C. Federation of Drift Fishers,
agreed the sockeye plight this year is a huge concern.
"Rule number one is get the fish on the spawning beds," he said.
But Goeson said he doesn't believe a general angling closure on the lower Fraser is necessary to protect sockeye.
"As long as people aren't targeting sockeye, it shouldn't be a problem," he said.
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Once again, another anti bbing thread by the absolute minority of fishermen out there and the bashing game begins.
Once again, the 'me-right-you-wrong' attitude and jam-down-your-throat approach. Pretty soon those bb haters from another site will come in with out right shaming of the bb fishing brothers. What else is new?
On the one hand, if you bbing, they tell you that even if the study showed a low mortality rate, you as sporties should protect every sockeye, as if killing the few fish accidentally is horrible in the big picture of the fish stock. But when you point out that their bf method kill sockeyes too, they say Nay, it doesn't happen or happen enough (hey wasn't there a soc in a recent post caught by bf). Now there is no worry about killing that precious sockeye by bf. In reality, they are more keen on bonking you on the head on bbing than the real issue of protecting the fish stock or protecting river ecology. These are bb haters, man. They are not interested on discussing the big picture, but instead it is about ethics, their form of fishing ethics.
And then they justify their beloved method of bar fishing as if it is saintly. Give me a break. If you question the survival rate of sockeyes caught by bbers, each of those sockeyes hooked by barfishing will die by the mere fact that the fish has to fight pulling the 1 lb weight instead of a 2-3 oz betty. Every oz of their energy reserve depleted, how can they survive? Also, each of those heavy lead slab they throw in the river pollutes the near-shore water mightily for any fish habitat while bbers are known to retrieve those lead betties snagged up. Some betties are coated in plastic, so lead discharge will be minimized or gradual. But I have not seen those lead slabs ever coated. And they are all within 30-40 ft from shore where flow is slower and the impact on near-shore water ecology can be questionable.
When you bf guys cast the heavy lead weights, you are landing most weights much closer to shore than bbers, directly into the travel lane of sockeyes. How do you know your lead bombs don't knock those sockeyes silly, don't disrupt their navigational system, or don't kill them if they get hit right on the head? How do you know for sure your method is that safe during time when you think every sockeye counts. Stop fishing man. Can't you do that for the fish?
Of course, the problem is this me-right-you-wrong and holier-than-thou attitude. You can keep fishing and we can't, that is what is at stake. For that I say, my friend, Milo is right. If we are out, you are out too. Don't kid yourself if you think FN will leave you guys alone. So what if you do succeed to shut us out only, and if that day comes, you will find your secluded spots over-crowded with fishermen forced to fish your style, or you can't have a spot anymore when you take yout time and arrive late. But frankly, I can't even imagine what will happen to the Fraser near-shore ecology when there are another few more thousand new bf converts chucking those unretrievable heavy lead slabs into the Fraser daily. ??? ::) You think your beloved fishing method will stand a chance if environmentalists start raising the issue in the public media, or when PETA does a video on YouTube on what cruelty a poor smallish sockeye has to fight 'evil' men & their big lead slabs while they are endangered? Good luck out there. ;D
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"Sport angling on the Fraser River should be shut down quickly to prevent a catastrophe for returning sockeye salmon", says Sto:lo fisheries advisor Ernie Crey.
This is their agenda...... Ernie isn't concerned about fishermen using the bottom bouncing method to catch chinooks, he wants all sport fishermen off the river! Let not be delusional in thinking if we all fish with bar rods that we'll suddenly be welcome on the river.
I'm also wondering how the FN observers can be seeing "sockeye salmon with wounds that indicate snagging or flossing by sports fishermen" when they haven't had a fisheries opening since earlier in July ??? ???
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... when they haven't had a fisheries opening since earlier in July ??? ???
There have been several First Nation sockeye fishery opening on the Fraser River since July.
Plenty of misinformation throughout the thread as the usual by the same participants every year. Not sure why people are willing to expend so much time on typing out the same thing, especially when most of the participants are annonymous. Want to make a difference? Regardless your point of view, join a sportfishing group, attend meetings, be properly informed, develop ideas and put them to use.
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Yes, interesting. AF is right on the money. Something fishy indeed. Also, we little sporties with one barbless hook can cause catastrophe to the Sockeyes? What an honour? Don't even know we are that influential. Factually, per bb trip this year so far, I either didn't see any sockeye hooked, or very few hook ups compared to springs. If the survival rate of the study is any indication, then the impact to the stock should be negligible. As far as I know, sporties - 0 sockeye kept, FN & others 30,000+ sockeyes killed plus more to come, and we are the one to cause catastrophe to sockeyes. Give me a break, man. Even bb haters should have smarter heads to know the statement is a joke. ;D
As for the debate issue. Yes it is a waste of time here. But when the other camp has started firing shots and repeating the bashing game, we just have to respond in kind. Just the nature of us mortals. :)
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Once again, another anti bbing thread by the absolute minority of fishermen out there and the bashing game begins.
Once again, the 'me-right-you-wrong' attitude and jam-down-your-throat approach. Pretty soon those bb haters from another site will come in with out right shaming of the bb fishing brothers. What else is new?
On the one hand, if you bbing, they tell you that even if the study showed a low mortality rate, you as sporties should protect every sockeye, as if killing the few fish accidentally is horrible in the big picture of the fish stock. But when you point out that their bf method kill sockeyes too, they say Nay, it doesn't happen or happen enough (hey wasn't there a soc in a recent post caught by bf). Now there is no worry about killing that precious sockeye by bf. In reality, they are more keen on bonking you on the head on bbing than the real issue of protecting the fish stock or protecting river ecology. These are bb haters, man. They are not interested on discussing the big picture, but instead it is about ethics, their form of fishing ethics.
And then they justify their beloved method of bar fishing as if it is saintly. Give me a break. If you question the survival rate of sockeyes caught by bbers, each of those sockeyes hooked by barfishing will die by the mere fact that the fish has to fight pulling the 1 lb weight instead of a 2-3 oz betty. Every oz of their energy reserve depleted, how can they survive? Also, each of those heavy lead slab they throw in the river pollutes the near-shore water mightily for any fish habitat while bbers are known to retrieve those lead betties snagged up. Some betties are coated in plastic, so lead discharge will be minimized or gradual. But I have not seen those lead slabs ever coated. And they are all within 30-40 ft from shore where flow is slower and the impact on near-shore water ecology can be questionable.
When you bf guys cast the heavy lead weights, you are landing most weights much closer to shore than bbers, directly into the travel lane of sockeyes. How do you know your lead bombs don't knock those sockeyes silly, don't disrupt their navigational system, or don't kill them if they get hit right on the head? How do you know for sure your method is that safe during time when you think every sockeye counts. Stop fishing man. Can't you do that for the fish?
Of course, the problem is this me-right-you-wrong and holier-than-thou attitude. You can keep fishing and we can't, that is what is at stake. For that I say, my friend, Milo is right. If we are out, you are out too. Don't kid yourself if you think FN will leave you guys alone. So what if you do succeed to shut us out only, and if that day comes, you will find your secluded spots over-crowded with fishermen forced to fish your style, or you can't have a spot anymore when you take yout time and arrive late. But frankly, I can't even imagine what will happen to the Fraser near-shore ecology when there are another few more thousand new bf converts chucking those unretrievable heavy lead slabs into the Fraser daily. ??? ::) You think your beloved fishing method will stand a chance if environmentalists start raising the issue in the public media, or when PETA does a video on YouTube on what cruelty a poor smallish sockeye has to fight 'evil' men & their big lead slabs while they are endangered? Good luck out there. ;D
Very interesting post and definitely some good food for thought.
It would be interesting to see if an objective barfer can write a rebuttal to the above.
I would like to add that I have witnessed a disturbing practice by some barfers: they tie their heavy lead weight on with a thin line (4# test) so that they can easily break it off when they set a hook on a fish and then fight the fish without the inconvenience of the lead weight. I hope it is not common practice. With the price of lead these days it is not only very environmentally unfriendly, but also bloody expensive. :o
I hope it is not standard practice.
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No it isnt standard practice.
Those that fish this way usually use a railway spike or some other non-lead material.
I was also a little shocked to see this on Rods video.
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Quote from: alwaysfishn on Today at 04:51:52 PM
... when they haven't had a fisheries opening since earlier in July ??? ???
There have been several First Nation sockeye fishery opening on the Fraser River since July.
Plenty of misinformation throughout the thread as the usual by the same participants every year. Not sure why people are willing to expend so much time on typing out the same thing, especially when most of the participants are annonymous. Want to make a difference? Regardless your point of view, join a sportfishing group, attend meetings, be properly informed, develop ideas and put them to use.
I was quoting from the newspaper article posted by Chris.
"Commercial fishing has so far been blocked and aboriginal food fisheries remain closed after a very brief opening earlier in July."
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Newspapers provide second hand information and at times it is incorrect, such as in this case.
Communal openings for sockeye salmon in the Lower Fraser First Nations have been happening weekly for several weeks now. Most of the catches have been from the last two weeks, not early July.
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Want to make a difference? Regardless your point of view, join a sportfishing group, attend meetings, be properly informed, develop ideas and put them to use.
Well said.
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So this has worked for you guys?
What letters did you write or what meetings did you attend that changed anything in sportfishing?
Looking forward to your replies as the letters that ive written in the past have allways landed on deaf ears.
Im assuming you folks have written letters just like you assumed that some of us dont. ;)
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Steelhawk
Chris and other members of Fishing With Rod are wrong. They thought they were gravel mining on the Fraser River but it turns out they were mining lead. I'v been told by a number of reliable
anglers that bottom bouncers rarely break off. Is that true ? No ecological problems with BB, they just leave lead in deeper water.
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Buck
I hate to be the bearer of sad news but there are a lot of Bettys in the Fraser as a result of bottom bouncing. I don't think that there are many accessible spots that are truely 'snag free' as your reliable anglers would have you believe. And most inexperienced fishermen who do snag up (as well as some of the experts no matter what they say), generally end up losing the BB. :( There is a place called Sticky bar near Hope and its NOT because of all the sap falling of the trees.
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To tell you the truth, I am still using lead betties I bought 3 years ago. How do I do that? I ususally break-even between snagging up and recovering betties. If you bb often enough, you know where the danger zones are and avoid drifting to them. Casting 12 oclock and keeping a tight line in the drift will help. Also when you snag up the first time, walk upstream and pull the line tight to see if you can break free. If not, look hard at the angle of the line, and using background objects to mark the exact location of the snag, and avoid drifting past that angle next time. Right now, since my target is spring, I retrieve much sooner to avoid drifting into sockeye travel zone near shore. This also avoid snagging up to near-shore debries/gravels. These techniques will minimize snagging up.
Every bber knows it is a regular thing to recover snagged betties.Those snagged betties can get loosened from the snags by being knocked around by river current or shifting gravels in the river bed. The next guy's drift can catch on the swivels or the hooks of the snagged betties and you can get a whole set hauled back to shore. The guys fishing with heavier tackles and lines are usually doing quite well in retrieving. Sometimes they break free a bad snag and they can haul in a few betties in one haul. There are also bbers who are tired of paying for betties. I have seen guys (after catching their fish) doing the savage job by hand casting out specially made rig with a weighted gaff tied to long rope, or a heavy metal mesh tied with huge hooks. They cast out and haul in with the rope. They do quite well this way. As the water recedes every week, these rigs can progressively reach to snagged betties outside. One of my bb friends also made trips in winter just to savage betties when the water level was at the lowest. I won't even want to tell you where and how 'many' he could get each time so he won't kill me for it. ;D
Like bf, bb has new and experienced fishermen. The newbies who don't know how to cast can lose a lot more than experienced guys. But you know, usually they make up by using heavier lines than experienced bbers, so they can muscle the snags and luck out at times with a bounty of betties.
I wonder if bfers have some ways to minimize dumping massive amount of lead. Chris should get a savage team in order like what he did in cleaning up the Vedder. ;D
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Last time i went around to a couple bars in the early spring, with the water down, i found literally a hundred or so bettys at a popular bb bar, At a poplular barfin' bar, i found only a handful of wedge weights. End of the day i had more weight in bettys than wedges. This is hardly the point of this thread, just thought i would state my observations.
I agree with some that the study is flawed in that the test is under ideal conditions and too short of a time to really tell the consequences. A lot of these fish have a very far journey still ahead of them, including much difficulter water than the lower region of the fraser offers. I can see the point of the test, to prove the impact isn't as much as FN claims, so they don't just close the whole river in general, but this year at this time with the water temps what they are, is not the time to carry out this test. With water temps like this, it is hard enough on fish period, let alone if they are caught or not. Last weekend i was up in horesfly visiting friends. I had planned on flyfishing for the big rainbows the river is known for. The river is catch/release and fly fish only, and the day before i got there they closed the river due to abnormaly high water tempature and the high mortality rates assosiated with catch and releasing fish under those circumstances.
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Last time i went around to a couple bars in the early spring, with the water down, i found literally a hundred or so bettys at a popular bb bar, At a poplular barfin' bar, i found only a handful of wedge weights. End of the day i had more weight in bettys than wedges.
It is quite logical that you won't find too many wedges. They are 'wedged' in the deep bottom, never to move - never to be seen again. Betties are round and much lighter...they keep rolling, moving, till they make it to shallower water where they can be found.
Either way, there's too much lead in the river. Wish tungsten came cheaper. Seriously.
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Exactly right, Milo. The Fraser has strong flows with tons of shifting gravels. Any heavy objects will sink and slowly covered. Try put your feet in some beaches facing pounding surfs with drifting sands. Soon your feets get covered and buried. To recover those lead slabs wedged deeply, you probably need a metal detector. ;D
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my brother and I were talking about it this morning on our drive out to hope (at 3:30 in the morning).....the fact that fishermen are absolutely ridiculous!!!! a poor return of sockeye and we pull out the knives and start stabbing......each other, whining and complaining about each others perceived impact on the fishery (no real scientific evidence of course, just assumptions) . We need a psychologist to sort this crap out and remind us that we are on the same team fishing with the "single barbless" ...regardless of whether our weights wear a protective "rubber" ;)
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So this has worked for you guys?
What letters did you write or what meetings did you attend that changed anything in sportfishing?
Looking forward to your replies as the letters that ive written in the past have allways landed on deaf ears.
Im assuming you folks have written letters just like you assumed that some of us dont. ;)
Has bickering on FWR or any other site for that matter EVER had even the slightest possibility of accomplishing anything? No. Writing letters, joining clubs, attending meetings, all have at least a slight possibility of having your voice heard.
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Oh so you must have proof of your letter writing and what it accomplished then Dion?
I would be very interested to know who you wrote to that got things done because im not writing to the correct people apperently.
I dont call it bickering.I call it educating the ill informed and you know what,these forums have had and impact as there are people that will no longer floss after being educated on these forums.
I can back up my claim,can you? ;D
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Bruce,
I never claimed to write letters to anyone or sit in on meetings as I don't. So I do not have proof.
Call it what you want it's still pointless banter back and forth. And I wonder if you've actually convinced someone one not to floss or if you've just intimidated them not to.
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I dont think any one person convinced any other but i do know for a fact that some people stopped flossing once they realised that the fish werent biting.
They realised this fact because of the so called flossing threads of the past and the info. that was gained from them.
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During the time of Harcourt & Moe Shiota, they tried to cut funding on lake stocking especially hatchery steelhead. That would mean people would be tempted to poach for wild steelhead and that would spell the doom of wild steelies across the Province, as well as lakes & streams would be fished out without fish replenishment. That would be disastrous. These politicians only looked at $$$ instead of the costs to fish stocks and to people's way of life.
I personally wrote to them both explaining that they would be the ones remembered for killing the wild steelhead, as well as young folks across the province losing interest in a good hobby like fishing if there is nothing to fish, which may then lead them into bad hobbies such as drugs, gangs, womanizing and boosts and would be a much more expensive social problems to fix. The 300K they tried to cut/save would end up costing them millions. I also made copies of petition forms at local tackle stores for fishers to sign up for our politicians to see and hear the uproar. Well, many other concerned fishermen joined in the fight. The politicians changed course. I personally receieved a letter from Shiota that he thanks us for voicing the opinion, and they realized the possible damage of their actions. Funding cut was halted. Future fishery was not harmed. I am a BBer on the Fraser and don't you think for a minute that BBers are sitting around doing nothing when it counts. The so called me-right-you-wrong or holier-than-thou attitude just because you bf or you attend meetings, join a club and others do not has got to change. Other people can choose to do this like you, or do some of it like writing letters. That does not mean they don't care.
Consistently putting pressures on people who do not share your idea about fishing and what makes ethical fishing is just not going to unite the fishermen brotherhood. Fish are caught by so many different effective ways all over the world, even in this country, and people of this province come from so many diversed ethnic and national backgrounds. Trying to impose on others your narrow view about fishing ethics applicable to yourself in a public media, armed with dirty terms like snagger, snagging, meat fishermen, is to me like spreading hate among fishermen brotherhood. Educating is one thing, shaming, bashing and trashing is a dirty technique used by PETA and organizations like that. The mere fact that there is hardly any fishing reports from the bb bars, or the lack of people daring to claim they bb is a proof that people are avoiding the shaming and bashing game which has been going on here. BBing is a legitimate fishing method on the Fraser accepted by DFO (as no one has been ticketed) and choosing to bounce or not is entirely up to the individual's unfretted freedom of choice in this plural society of ours. Leave people alone to fish in peace as long as they fish legally. DFO can always impose a leader lenght restriction on the smaller systems if they wish to. Leave the legal and legitimate issue of fishing to the governing body of fishing and speak no evils against your fishing brothers if they are not breaking any laws. Just my 2 cents on the subject.
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During the time of Harcourt & Moe Shiota, they tried to cut funding on lake stocking especially hatchery steelhead. That would mean people would be tempted to poach for wild steelhead and that would spell the doom of wild steelies across the Province, as well as lakes & streams would be fished out without fish replenishment. That would be disastrous. These politicians only looked at $$$ instead of the costs to fish stocks and to people's way of life.
I personally wrote to them both explaining that they would be the ones remembered for killing the wild steelhead, as well as young folks across the province losing interest in a good hobby like fishing if there is nothing to fish, which may then lead them into bad hobbies such as drugs, gangs, womanizing and boosts and would be a much more expensive social problems to fix. The 300K they tried to cut/save would end up costing them millions. I also made copies of petition forms at local tackle stores for fishers to sign up for our politicians to see and hear the uproar. Well, many other concerned fishermen joined in the fight. The politicians changed course. I personally receieved a letter from Shiota that he thanks us for voicing the opinion, and they realized the possible damage of their actions. Funding cut was halted. Future fishery was not harmed. I am a BBer on the Fraser and don't you think for a minute that BBers are sitting around doing nothing when it counts. The so called me-right-you-wrong or holier-than-thou attitude just because you bf or you attend meetings, join a club and others do not has got to change. Other people can choose to do this like you, or do some of it like writing letters. That does not mean they don't care
Consistently putting pressures on people who do not share your idea about fishing and what makes ethical fishing is just not going to unite the fishermen brotherhood. Fish are caught by so many different effective ways all over the world, even in this country, and people of this province come from so many diversed ethnic and national backgrounds. Trying to impose on others your narrow view about fishing ethics applicable to yourself in a public media, armed with dirty terms like snagger, snagging, meat fishermen, is to me like spreading hate among fishermen brotherhood. Educating is one thing, shaming, bashing and trashing is a dirty technique used by PETA and organizations like that. The mere fact that there is hardly any fishing reports from the bb bars, or the lack of people daring to claim they bb is a proof that people are avoiding the shaming and bashing game which has been going on here. BBing is a legitimate fishing method on the Fraser accepted by DFO (as no one has been ticketed) and choosing to bounce or not is entirely up to the individual's unfretted freedom of choice in this plural society of ours. Leave people alone to fish in peace as long as they fish legally. DFO can always impose a leader lenght restriction on the smaller systems if they wish to. Leave the legal and legitimate issue of fishing to the governing body of fishing and speak no evils against your fishing brothers if they are not breaking any laws. Just my 2 cents on the subject.
word! great post steelhawk
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Well said! A voice of reason and balance!
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Hopefully now we can get back on track to the original subject of this posting. Thru all the messages - is the study still on track and are volunteers needed?
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Hopefully now we can get back on track to the original subject of this posting. Thru all the messages - is the study still on track and are volunteers needed?
The schedules of the study that I listed a week ago are still unchanged.
Fisheries and Oceans Canada has scheduled the three five-day sampling periods to begin on August 10th, 17th and 24th respectively. We plan to start fishing each day at 8:00am until we reach our goal for that day or 2:30pm, which ever comes first. The study will be conducted again on Grassy Bar, just downstream from Island 22 boat launch. Volunteer anglers at different skill levels are needed, no sign-up is required. For those needing a boat ride to/from the location, the group will be meeting each day at 7:30am at Island 22 and returning at 2:30pm. There is no need to sign up in advance, just come on by. Please make sure you park in the appropriate parking area for your vehicle type.
Make sure you bring appropriate clothings as they are forecasting rain on Monday, thankfully.
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A fishery notice will be issued by DFO tomorrow for no fishing for sockeye salmon starting on Wednesday. Please note that this is different to no retention for sockeye salmon. By issuing this implementation, DFO wishes to see anglers reduce catching and release sockeye salmon significantly while targeting chinook, pink and chum salmon, meaning adopting alternative fishing methods such as barfishing, back trolling, lure casting and bait fishing.
Does this mean that the sockeye mortality study 2009 will be canceled?
I was planning to head out Thursday or Friday with my son to contribute to it, but now I guess that's out of the question.
Rodney please advise.
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I haven't received any notices on cancellation, so I assume that it will continue. Studies are often carried out with a permitted issued so there are exceptions to the regulations that are in effect. I'll also send you a message on who you can contact directly regarding the status of the study.
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I haven't received any notices on cancellation, so I assume that it will continue. Studies are often carried out with a permitted issued so there are exceptions to the regulations that are in effect. I'll also send you a message on who you can contact directly regarding the status of the study.
It will be continuing at this time, they also have some radio tags but I am awaiting word back if they are going to be used this year.
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It will be continuing at this time, they also have some radio tags but I am awaiting word back if they are going to be used this year.
They are applying radio tags this year I have just been told. This now adds some credibility in my mind to the study.
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Good to hear they will radio tag some sockeye. It's expensive, the "Master" told me it was about $600 per fish for the tags. It will be interesting to see the results of how many make it to their natal streams.
Expensive yes but it should give a better indication of what happens to the fish, much improved over last year's study but of course the way they are getting them is....................................
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Expensive yes but it should give a better indication of what happens to the fish, much improved over last year's study but of course the way they are getting them is....................................
And just how else are sockeye in the Fraser supposed to be caught by recreational anglers?
Please do enlighten us, Chris.
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Expensive yes but it should give a better indication of what happens to the fish, much improved over last year's study but of course the way they are getting them is....................................
how do you tag the control?
its not an indication of anything innless there is a control to compare your findings.
maybe the control could be caught in the ocean, tagged and recorded only when they pass a curtain point in the river, like where the snagging is taking place.
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how do you tag the control?
its not an indication of anything innless there is a control to compare your findings.
maybe the control could be caught in the ocean, tagged and recorded only when they pass a curtain point in the river, like where the snagging is taking place.
Controls are fish that are seined at the same study site.
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I didn't realize they had 2 groups of fish. maybe they are on to something.
BTW
I heard first hand
FN did unreal today, the fish are coming, the fish are coming.
(although Global reported different today)
maybe, maybe we are in with a chance.
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And just how else are sockeye in the Fraser supposed to be caught by recreational anglers?
Please do enlighten us, Chris.
Milo, I think we may have seen the end of sockeye retention in the Fraser especially if sockeye continue to decline. You will now have to go to the ocean for them. ;D
The good news we should still have chinook, chum, pinks, trout and sturgeon and of course pike minnows to catch. We should be thankful for that.
It was many years ago we had no retention for sockeye, pink and chum in the Fraser River or for that matter most of our other rivers but it was the work of the FVSS and yes I was one of the directors who worked with FOC to get all these species open, it took a fair amount of work let me tell you. Before this we were content just catching chinook with the majority taken bar fishing. I think we can live without sockeye as we did before they were opened in the 1990's.
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Milo, I think we may have seen the end of sockeye retention in the Fraser especially if sockeye continue to decline. You will now have to go to the ocean for them. ;D
The good news we should still have chinook, chum, pinks, trout and sturgeon and of course pike minnows to catch. We should be thankful for that.
It was many years ago we had no retention for sockeye, pink and chum in the Fraser River or for that matter most of our other rivers but it was the work of the FVSS and yes I was one of the directors who worked with FOC to get all these species open, it took a fair amount of work let me tell you. Before this we were content just catching chinook with the majority taken bar fishing. I think we can live without sockeye as we did before they were opened in the 1990's.
Chris, I was referring to the mortality study. The study needs sockeye to tag, yet you criticize the method they are caught with.
All I asked is if you could offer an efficient alternative angling method to catch sockeye for the study.
And don't worry about my sockeye for the table. My friendly FN neighbor has plenty of them for 12 bucks a piece. :P
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Chris, I was referring to the mortality study. The study needs sockeye to tag, yet you criticize the method they are caught with.
All I asked is if you could offer an efficient alternative angling method to catch sockeye for the study.
And don't worry about my sockeye for the table. My friendly FN neighbor has plenty of them for 12 bucks a piece. :P
And cheaper too. ;D
To answer your first part, once again, as I have said many times I do not favor any type of recreational angling that is using a method when the fish are not biting, to me it is not fair to the fish. I hold them in too high regard and their wonderful life cycle of hatching in some distance stream under adverse conditions threatened by floods and the many predators in the fresh water environment they try to avoid for a year or more before they migrate to the ocean where many other predators including man are after them for the 1 to 4 years they are there. They then must travel the return route back to their natal streams where the same dangers try to cut the journey short.
Saying this I guess in this case I do not favor the study as I once again I do not favor having to take them this way. Maybe one day I will give up angling, one never knows as changes do happen as one time I was in the lineups at the Scale Bar and Grassy too, getting my share of sockeye with a good supply of betty's in the Leaf Craft. ::) ???
One final thing is, the F/N situation always gets drawn in to this debate, I feel that of course has many short comming too but must be dealt with separately by government. The SDA as I mentioned once again the other day worked very hard for many years to have changes made but because of the apathy of many anglers it ran out of steam and funds.
It seems to be part of our society these days, lots of people like to complain be it on forums or over coffee but will not give monetary support, write letters, join a fishing club or attend environmental projects like river cleanups.
We must always remember that the future of the fish rely on us looking after them, as well does yours and my children along with our grandchildren who are relying on us to do so.
Sometimes we put our greed and monetary values ahead of these wonderful animals, our salmon.
Sorry for the long answer and I welcome any criticism of my views but I must remember Mr. D wanted me to refrain from posting ion this subject, I guess the way to do this is to go away fishing and away from a computer, sounds like a good idea, back in a day or so.
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Today's notice just sent out.
Category(s):
RECREATIONAL - Salmon
Fishery Notice - Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Subject: FN0611-RECREATIONAL: SALMON: Sockeye Hook & Release Pilot Mortality Study Region 2, Fraser River, Grassy Bar
The Fraser Salmon & Watershed Program (FSWP) in conjunction with the Department
of Fisheries & Oceans (DFO) is conducting the second year of a sockeye hook and
release study in the Fraser River to determine the short term (24 hour)
mortality of sockeye caught and released in recreational fisheries.
A contract biologist, Jim Thomas of JO Thomas & Associates (JOT), will be
responsible for the operational aspects of the study.
We are seeking interested volunteers to assist us in the study. We need
approximately 35 anglers each day of the study. If you are interested please
join us at the location and time noted below.
Study Design: fish will be caught by the usual recreational fishing methods and
also by beach seine. Sockeye health will be assessed and the fish will be
tagged and placed into a net pen and held for 24 hours. After the 24 hour
period the fish health will be assessed again and they will be released. In
addition, up to 100 radio tags will be applied to the sockeye prior to release
to assess their upstream migration.
Species and Amounts: the goal is to catch up to 700 sockeye by angling and
beach seine methods. All live sockeye will be released after the 24 hour
holding period.
Meeting Location and Time: Island 22 boat launch each day of the study at 7:30
AM. Please make sure you park in the appropriate parking area for your vehicle
type. Transportation to the study area will be available for those without
boats. There is no need to sign up; just show up at the boat launch.
Location of Study: Grassy Bar – a portion of the bar will be marked off and
used solely for the purpose of the study
Timing of Study: three 5 day time periods August 10-14, August 17-21 and August
24-28. Note: The last week is currently tentative and may be moved to August 31-
September 4.
Given the varying weather conditions expected please make sure you are prepared
and bring enough liquids to keep yourself hydrated. You may also need rain
jackets, sunscreen, bug repellant and a hat.
Similar to last year you are required to provide your own rod, reel and line
and if you want your terminal tackle. If you prefer, there will be a selection
of weights, leader and wool available.
The study is open to volunteer anglers of all experience levels so please come
on out and join us.
For information on year one results please visit:
http://www.thinksalmon.com/fswp_project/item/fraser_sockeye_hook_and_release_mor
tality_study/
Notes:
Did you witness suspicious fishing activity or a violation? If so, please call
the Fisheries and Ocean Canada 24-hour toll free Observe, Record, Report line
at (800) 465-4336.
For the 24 hour recorded opening and closure line, call toll free at (866) 431-
FISH.
Fisheries and Oceans Canada Operations Center - FN0611
Sent August 11, 2009 at 12:19
Visit us on the Web at http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
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What if people catch a spring in the test fishery? Do they have to return the spring too as this is a c/r test fishery? ;D
I like the fact that they will radio tag the fish in the study. Now they will know how many just disappear into some illegal nets. ;D But honestly I don't see how they can tell a tagged sockeye not back to natal streams is due to sporties c/r or due to disappearing into some nets. Will FN cooperate to send in all tagged fish caught, assuming it is caught in a legal F&S fishery? That is a gapping hole in the study. And if these fish disappear into illegal nets, the bbers will again have to bear the blame of some body else's sin. Go figure.
Assuming a perfect world, hopefull, and once for all, we will see how many will make it back to natal streams after c/r in a sport fishery. However, unless they have a control group of fish which has been tagged too but w/o being caught in a recreational fishery, how will they know that it is the sporties who are causing more fatalities during the fish migration. Just too many holes in this study to me. Any comments from people more familiar with scientific test sampling?
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Without pulling out a stats text...
The researcher should try to use two identical groups in his or her control group (in this case fish caught by beach seine) and the experimental group (BB caught). One of three things should come out in the results once they have been gone over by the researcher and, I would hope, reviewed by others.
a. there is no significant difference in mortality between the groups
b. there is a significant difference between the groups
c. there is not enough statistical evidence to prove or disprove either way
It looks like it's set up well assuming the sample size is 50 in each group (100 tags). Hopefully they time it so both groups are caught and released at similar times. Stats is heavily dependent on probability and this is why a small sample can be accurate for a population. Not likely that only BB caught fish will be caught in illegal nets. Its like a public opinion pole, they can call 100 houses and ask if people like or dislike something and it will be accurate if the numbers called are a random sample. Gotta trust that statistical analysis is accurate. Now they way the results are presented is where the BS can come in!!
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What if people catch a spring in the test fishery? Do they have to return the spring too as this is a c/r test fishery? ;D
I like the fact that they will radio tag the fish in the study. Now they will know how many just disappear into some illegal nets. ;D But honestly I don't see how they can tell a tagged sockeye not back to natal streams is due to sporties c/r or due to disappearing into some nets. Will FN cooperate to send in all tagged fish caught, assuming it is caught in a legal F&S fishery? That is a gapping hole in the study. And if these fish disappear into illegal nets, the bbers will again have to bear the blame of some body else's sin. Go figure.
Assuming a perfect world, hopefull, and once for all, we will see how many will make it back to natal streams after c/r in a sport fishery. However, unless they have a control group of fish which has been tagged too but w/o being caught in a recreational fishery, how will they know that it is the sporties who are causing more fatalities during the fish migration. Just too many holes in this study to me. Any comments from people more familiar with scientific test sampling?
Last year they retained them.
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Summer run numbers downsized from 2,858,000 to 600,000 and they still want to go ahead with this study ?
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I don't understand why people keep asking questions about why is the study still being carried out? ???
The study is necessary so that DFO has some science behind their assumptions that using C&R techniques on sockeye salmon has minimal impact on their survival rates. If the study proves that the mortality rate is high they will close the river entirely to salmon fishing in any low return years for sockeye salmon. This would create not only political backlash but economic losses to government and businesses. FN as I have said before would love to have the river to themselves 24/7. The science would also be helpful should DFO's decision making be challenged in a court.
DFO realizes that they can only close the river totally, or keep it open totally to any salmon fishing.
They are asking fishermen not to BB but they are not making it a restricted fishing technique because they can't enforce it. Even after tomorrow, there will be individuals that will ignore the request to stop bottom bouncing and they will get away with it, because it isn't against the law, and even if it was made into law it is unenforceable. A low mortality rate on the C&R sockeye study would allow DFO to argue that the river can remain open, as the sports fishermen have minimal impact on the sockeye.
On the other hand without the C&R study there would be no science to back DFO's current assumptions, particularly if it was taken to court!
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It will be disappointing if people continue to BB after this request, it shows they are not conservation minded and may lead to further restrictions at a later date.
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To answer your first part, once again, as I have said many times I do not favor any type of recreational angling that is using a method when the fish are not biting, to me it is not fair to the fish. I hold them in too high regard and their wonderful life cycle of hatching in some distance stream under adverse conditions threatened by floods and the many predators in the fresh water environment they try to avoid for a year or more before they migrate to the ocean where many other predators including man are after them for the 1 to 4 years they are there. They then must travel the return route back to their natal streams where the same dangers try to cut the journey short.
Chris, your comment bothers me, therefore the reason for the late post..... :(
The angling method a fisherman uses to put fish on their table does not reflect their level of regard for the fish.
The commercial fisherman, the FN fisherman, the bb'ing fisherman and even the hunter who shoots his unwary prey, likely regards the resource as much or more than a PETA vegan or a barfing fisherman.
Most fishermen and hunters have high regard for their prey because like you, they understand the struggle that life goes through just to survive, and they appreciate the effort it takes to put healthy wild food on their table.
But ultimately it is food, whether we shoot it, catch it with a 20 foot leader or choke it to death ;D ..... as long as it's legal, we shouldn't be judged for our technique.
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Chris, your comment bothers me, therefore the reason for the late post..... :(
The angling method a fisherman uses to put fish on their table does not reflect their level of regard for the fish.
The commercial fisherman, the FN fisherman, the bb'ing fisherman and even the hunter who shoots his unwary prey, likely regards the resource as much or more than a PETA vegan or a barfing fisherman.
Most fishermen and hunters have high regard for their prey because like you, they understand the struggle that life goes through just to survive, and they appreciate the effort it takes to put healthy wild food on their table.
But ultimately it is food, whether we shoot it, catch it with a 20 foot leader or choke it to death ;D ..... as long as it's legal, we shouldn't be judged for our technique.
Sorry these are just my thoughts and to give others "food" for thought. Remember, I at one time took sockeye this way and thought nothing of it. At least now with the request from FOC starting today I donot think that is unreasonable to cease BB ing for this time period. Don't you agree?
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At least now with the request from FOC startiung today I donot think that is unreasonable to cease BB ing for this time period. Don't you agree?
Yes I agree. The reason I agree is that DFO has made the request and if fishermen don't comply, DFO will close the river. Over the next few weeks I look forward to setting my barfing gear on the sparsely populated bars. ;D
As you have gathered what I disagree with is bickering with each other over minor issues such as bb'ing and trying to make our position point by belittling others. While you have not used the term "snaggers", others have, and I have never heard you correct them. This is counter productive to the sport fisherman's cause and I believe is being noted by politicians and FN groups. That's why people like Crey are using that info as ammunition to take their agenda to the public and politicians are generally ignoring us.
We need to be careful to not sound like the smoker who stops smoking and then try's to convince all their smoker friends to stop smoking. After a while it's tough listening to them. :(
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I agree with AF totally. Due to constant flaming within our own sport fishing community by defaming & twisting bbing out of porportion, DFO & FN will now consider the recreational sector capable of threatening the fish stock (what a joke, man). How much of their action is influenced by the constant peddling of the bf fanatics? Even this sockeye C/R study may have been initiated by the constant lobbying of influential members of the bf groups, saying that bb kills sockeyes. It is really affecting the name of the sport fishing sector unnecessarily, considering we have retained zero sockeye whereas the other sectors (FN & test fisheries) have killed 40,000+ fish, and we have retained meager number of fish in the past compared to others. Yet we are the group singled out for action and not others. Why? Guys, use your brain. Isn't this fishy and quite a cruel joke? I really think somebody's relentless effort to shut down your fellow anglers' fishing oppportunities may back fire, as the whole sport fishing community will now be convieniently blamed for the disappearance of sockeyes. If the public media pick up on this, we as a free people pursuing a wholesome hobby will be in trouble. We don't need to give PETA or FN sympathizers more ammo to attack us as a group. Do you really think the uninformed public can differentiate one method from the others, or how few fish we have caught compared to other groups? I don't think so. They will make their impression based on how many times they see headlines saying that sporties are now threatening fish stocks. That is what Crey wants to create, a smoke screen.
Is it really possible to massively convert bbers to bfers? Not really. If you study the demographics of the bbers, most are not retirees, not own a boat, don't live near the fishing locations and can't fish often like some of the bfers can. There are some exceptions but most bbers drive far to hopefully catch a fish on the only trip of the week so the whole family can enjoy that wholesome catch. Can most of these people withstand the constant empty trips of bf to still retain their interest to keep on fishing? Perhaps some. But realistically, they will not be interested. To be a bfer, you need to spend for a boat and for a truck/SUV strong enough to pull a boat. These expenses will scare off most bbers. So they will stop fishing. And if they like eating salmon, they will buy from FN. The assumption that the drop-outs will refrain from buying from FN because of ethics or fish stocks concern is just not realistic. Perhaps some will, but not the majority. There are not many saints around these days.
The net result will be major drop in license revenue, loss of economic opportunities for local businesses catering to the fishermen, as well as a shrinking number of fellow fishermen who will share your concern of the big picture of fish stock conservation (and less people willing to go to pick up garbage ;D), less number of eyes on the river to report FN's illegal fishing, and worst so, they may join in the buying group of the FN supply line which will motivate the latter to catch some more and some more.... Also, if even just a small portion of them convert to bf, then the bf bars can really get crowded if you still want the generous distance between bf rods. Well, the retirees bfers may not care because they don't usually fish the weekends, but are you really that selfish to think for yourself and not for other fishermen?
Also when DFO is faced with lesser revenue, what is the usual pattern? Budget cut of course. Which means cut to hatchery stocking usually (have they ever reduced staff salary/benefits?). Which means you and I will have less fish to catch. So eventually, it will have far reaching consequence than just shutting down bbers and keeping the majority of fishermen out of the Fraser River.
Is this the future big picture you wish to see by your contant action to push people to fish like you (or else don't fish at all)? All because of your view that it is not fair for the fish to be taken because it doesn't bite? Does the fish care if it becomes your dinner just because the poor thing just wants to eat its own dinner? Does it even have that smart in its primitive brain to make that judgement and thank you for making it your dinner the right way? So, can we as a united sport fishing community, leave the bb on Fraser alone as a special situation, and have a united front on other issues which have much more impact on the future of fish stocks and which can protect our fishing rights for generations to come?
While the current study on the impact of c/r bbing is going on, I really think some anti-sockeye-fishing minds should also carefully examine the impact of their actions on the future of sport fishing.
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Steelhawk,
I believe the C&R study was originally put forward by members of the Cheam Band. I doubt their actions were "influenced by the constant peddling of the barfishing fanatics" as you so eloquently put it.
"Also when DFO is faced with lesser revenue, what is the usual pattern? Budget cut of course. Which means cut to hatchery stocking usually (have they ever reduced staff salary/benefits?). Which means you and I will have less fish to catch. So eventually, it will have far reaching consequence than just shutting down bbers and keeping the majority of fishermen out of the Fraser River." - Firstly, DFO gets no revenue from license sales. Second, where in BC do they raise hatchery sockeye besides Cultus and Inch Cr? And those sockeye are definitely not raised for the recreational fishery, strictly for conservation concern. Not sure what this comment has to do with any of the discussion... DFO hatcheries were never intended to produce fish for you to catch with a rod. They produced fish for the commercial sector and I don't believe (even though the commercial numbers have dwindled) that this mandate has changed.
P.S. Rodney, your writings on the whole sockeye subject have been refreshing to read. I appreciate your unbiased opinions above all others on the forum, kudos to a great moderator in the truest sense of the word. :)
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Fair enough. So where does the license revenue go? Who do we pay to when we get online to buy our licenses? If our license revenue does not go to support the hatcheries, who and what agencies take our money and spend on what?
I know hatcheries don't raise sockeyes. That is not what I mean. Don't hatcheries get funding from DFO? So if hatcheries are facing budget short fall, they cut fish production, which may mean chinooks and coho. We do see the Chillwack hatchery cut 600K coho smolts a few years ago, and look at how few coho in the river compared to many years ago. I am not sure if they also cut chinook stocking too, but I do remember more than a decade ago fishing for Chinooks/springs on the Vedder was exciting and really productive. Now, there is not even enough to return to the hatchery and many fishing reports were reporting next to nothing. Can't always blame ocean survival. When the stocking is cut, there will be less fish to support a productive fishery.
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Freshwater Fisheries Society of BC gets a big chunk of license revenue. Not sure if there are any other targeted funds or if the rest goes into general revenue.
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JUst got back from fishing today.. and did meet up with those guys doing the study.. They are doing beach scine and sport caught for they study... so far they have keep about 50 sport caught in the holding pan for the last 24 hrs and everyone swim away freely this afternoon...
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Chris: You know you're wrong about the Study not getting off the ground last year. I participated last year as a member of a local fishing club to dispel once and for all the myth that hook caught die after release. Of 289 fish caught over a 3 wk period only 2 died-one was seal bit before being caught by hook and the other was a bleeder from the brachial artery . The study then & now is monitored by a DFO Rep & is paid for by funds from the Fraser Basin Council . The VOLUNTEERS are given a hat for participating in this Scientific study . So come out on & all to help 07:30 -08:00 Mon to Fri Island 22 for ride---See For Yourself--
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Scuntor-- FF has no part of this Hook Mortality Study-- the money comes from The Fraser Basin Council distributed by & under the stewardship of Fisheries & Oceans Canada . So your license money is in General Revenue Victoria to help keep the New Salmon Farm Permits generate more sea lice so we get less fish returning every year-- it's quite simple really
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Steelhawk: I agree totally with your eloquent points about fighting amongst ourselves being counter-productive re-BB & Bf--- How many years have we tried ( successfully 'til now) to Keep the Gov't out of our tackle boxes ? Let's not throw the door open now over how we "legally" kill our dinner. Old Chinese Proverb " Be very Careful what you wish for-- you just might get it ---Forever/
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Hopefully now we can get back on track to the original subject of this posting. Thru all the messages - is the study still on track and are volunteers needed?
[/Yes the Study is on for two more weeks Mon-- Fri ---07:30 to 2:30 17th to 21st Aug& 24to 28 --P/U for transport@ Island 22--- 07:30 quote]
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Weekly updates of the study can now be found at:
http://www.thinksalmon.com/fswp_project/item/fraser_sockeye_hook_and_release_mortality_study_year_2/
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Was out there participating until 11:30 AM this morning. There were about 30 fishers participating, only about 8 Sockeye caught during that time. There were 30 caught yesterday (Thursday) It was good to see several guide boats participating, and I'm sure provided several good lessons for their clients that they would not normally get.
I do not recall seeing so few fish on the depth sounder.
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are the shore guy's wading very far out?
will I need my waders?
I might check this out on Monday.
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are the shore guy's wading very far out?
will I need my waders?
I might check this out on Monday.
Check to make sure the study is going on Monday as I was to take a Shaw TV crew out on Tuesday on the Leaf Craft and then the cameraman phoned me back and said Thursday was the day they could come. Maybe it is that Thursday is the only day they are radio tagging next week. I am sure we will find out before Monday. I will check into it for you.
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Bring your waders.
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On it on Monday through Friday next week? Cheers Shaun
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Check to make sure the study is going on Monday as I was to take a Shaw TV crew out on Tuesday on the Leaf Craft and then the cameraman phoned me back and said Thursday was the day they could come. Maybe it is that Thursday is the only day they are radio tagging next week. I am sure we will find out before Monday. I will check into it for you.
Heard from Frank and it is on next week for the 5 days. He told Shaw TV that Thursday was the best day to go as more things being done that day.
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2009 FRASER RIVER SOCKEYE ESCAPEMENT
Inseason Update
Early Stuart run
All sockeye appear to be in good condition with no indications of elevated levels of pre-spawn mortality in the near terminal areas. Incidence of net marks, hook marks, general disease (body discolouration or with circular blotches, small white spots, fungus), and wounds on sockeye counted through the Forfar and Gluske fences to date is 0.7%, 0.8%, 1.4% and 1.0% respectively.
Interesting info, sports fishing interception of the sockeye run looks low at .8% assuming 100% survival rate. Looks like these creatures are stronger than we think they are.
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We caught over 60 sockeye today in the name of science lol
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2009 FRASER RIVER SOCKEYE ESCAPEMENT
Inseason Update
Early Stuart run
All sockeye appear to be in good condition with no indications of elevated levels of pre-spawn mortality in the near terminal areas. Incidence of net marks, hook marks, general disease (body discolouration or with circular blotches, small white spots, fungus), and wounds on sockeye counted through the Forfar and Gluske fences to date is 0.7%, 0.8%, 1.4% and 1.0% respectively.
Interesting info, sports fishing interception of the sockeye run looks low at .8% assuming 100% survival rate. Looks like these creatures are stronger than we think they are.
Could you post the link for this news release?
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Could you post the link for this news release?
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/Escapement/Sockeyeupdate.pdf
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As The Chilliwack Progress reporter and photo journalist wanted to go down and report on the study the Leaf Craft took them down. It was a good day to go down as they were taking tissue samples as well. Also they were doing a beach seine that had a fair amount of pinks along with sockeye, spring jacks, adults, a sturgeon , pike minnow and chub in it.
I shot a bit of video that I will post on u tube when I get time as there was some interesting information there I thought. I then went bar fishing for 5 hours but the best I could do was find a nice bell and have a nap.
I will post the links to the clips when I get them uploaded.
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As The Chilliwack Progress reporter and photo journalist wanted to go down and report on the study the Leaf Craft took them down. It was a good day to go down as they were taking tissue samples as well. Also they were doing a beach seine that had a fair amount of pinks along with sockeye, spring jacks, adults, a sturgeon , pike minnow and chub in it.
I shot a bit of video that I will post on u tube when I get time as there was some interesting information there I thought. I then went bar fishing for 5 hours but the best I could do was find a nice bell and have a nap.
I will post the links to the clips when I get them uploaded.
Have uploaded the first 2 video's I shot of the study. I hope you find some of it educational.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ3SiBgY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSHaeSfbSTc
A couple more to come later.
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Chris,
Thank you for getting this out.
Hopefully it will make people better informed
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Chris,
Thank you for getting this out.
Hopefully it will make people better informed
Thanks very much, 2 more to come if I donot fall a sleep first, too much fishing this week. ;D ;D
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Another 2 are at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnUwWLMYjbM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlgEFYmka2Q
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Thanks for the video Chris.
Is cool to see what they doing.
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Is the study on again this coming week?
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Is the study on again this coming week?
Yes as far as I know, if there is any changes I am sure they will let Rodney know so he can post the changes. I am going out, but I will be bar fishing . ;D ;D ;D
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anyone get a ride across what time do they leave isl22 and what time do they bring u back ?
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anyone get a ride across what time do they leave isl22 and what time do they bring u back ?
http://www.thinksalmon.com/fswp_project/item/fraser_sockeye_hook_and_release_mortality_study_year_2/
Be at the launch at Island 22 at 7:30 AM and they end around 3.
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I participated with a friend last Thursday - was a slow day - only 12 Sockeye caught - although I did manage to catch one ;D that was already changing color. 3 Springs were also caught that day - no pinks. There were quite a number of fish jumping further out from the shore (just beyond casting range - its like they knew and were taunting us). ::)
They also set out a net a few times over the course of the day and caught 30+ pinks with each pass - very few Sockeye :-[
On the way back to the boat launch we spotted an eagle 'swimming' to shore with a fish it refused to let go of. It made it to shore and proudly dined on its meal.
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thanks maby ill try to make it out there this week
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If you go to the Chilliwack Progress web page there is some video they shot and edited.
Chris
Radio tagging a new angle for sockeye study
“Fish on!” yells the angler, as he hooks a sockeye and reels it in from a gravel bar in the Fraser River near Chilliwack.
He and other volunteer anglers are “bottom-bouncing” for science as part of the ongoing sockeye mortality study at Grassy Bar.
The fish is gently lifted out of the net, placed in a black mesh bag and walked along the shore to a large floating pen, where it will remain for 24 hours, before being assessed and released.
The numbers of both the sockeye and volunteer anglers are strong so far this year, says study coordinator Jim Thomas.
A whopping 63 sockeye were caught in one day last week, which he says is a sign the somewhat healthier summer run of Chilko sockeye had likely entered the river system.
“Monday was the biggest day we’ve seen in the two years of doing this,” Thomas tells The Progress.
“And even though there are huge concerns around the retention of sockeye, we’re clearly seeing a greater abundance right now in the river than we did at this time last year.”
This year marks the second year of the four-year study undertaken by Thomas, looking at the impacts of catch-and-release sport fishing on sockeye.
The $56,000 research study is funded by a grant from the Fraser Salmon and Watershed Program (FSWP), in conjunction with DFO. The goal is to catch 700 sockeye over the course of the multi-year study.
When The Progress news team arrives at Grassy Bar last Tuesday, sport fishers are lined along the shore, casting into the water, enjoying pleasant riverside conditions and the chance to fish despite a partial river closure in effect.
“This is a legitimate place to fish right now and not feel guilty, because you’re doing it for science,” says Fraser Valley Salmon Society rep Frank Kwak, who is assisting with the field work for the study.
He was busy that afternoon, helping to scoop and release the many pinks, jacks, chinook and sturgeon caught incidentally in the beach seine net.
“If I was going to go fishing this week, I’d be here,” he says.
In fact, the volunteer numbers have been “exceptional,” so far this year, says Thomas.
An average of 28 to 33 anglers per day have been shuttled by boat to Grassy Bar to participate in the short-term mortality study, he added.
It’s no wonder the numbers are strong. The anglers wouldn’t tality study, he added.
It’s no wonder the numbers are strong. The anglers wouldn’t otherwise be permitted to use that particular fishing method right now, given the low numbers of returning sockeye, and the specific DFO fishery notice asking anglers not to bottom bounce on that part of the Fraser for the sake of conservation.
But here at Grassy Bar, bottom bouncing, sometimes derogatorily referred to as “snagging” or “flossing,” is permitted this month only by DFO, to allow the study volunteers to provide data on the impacts of catch-and-release fishing on sockeye.
That’s what attracted angler Brian Forster and his family to participate in the study on the Fraser for the second year, while camping in the area near Harrison Bay.
“It’s great because even though the fishing (for sockeye) is closed, we still get a chance to come out here and fish,” he said.
The hotter temperatures seen earlier in the month have cooled down, and river temperatures were hovering at about 18 degrees last week, which is considered more conducive for the passing spawners.
At the study site, they’ve had a total of about 200 sockeye, bobbing at different times in the pens since they started the field work on Aug. 10.
“We’re actually ahead of target,” Thomas said.
“There’s only been one mortality so far out of about 150 fish,” he said.
Last year they saw two dead sockeye out of 173 study fish.
“So it’s corroborating the results from last year so far,” Thomas added.
The other significant aspect this summer is that it’s a pink year, and they’re seeing increased numbers of pink salmon as well, which might impact the “catch-ability” of the sockeye.
Carleton PhD student Mike Donaldson is responsible for the radio-tagging part of the study, which is a new addition this summer.
“We’re putting out between 75 and 100 tags (over three study periods), and the purpose is to track their movements upstream, and their behaviour after release, that’s the main objective,” Donaldson says. “It allows us to assign survival based on whether they make it up to the spawning areas.”
Three groups of fish are being tagged, and scientists will be tracking their movements with transmitter monitoring stations posted throughout the Fraser River watershed. They include the freshly landed fish from the volunteer anglers, the beach-seined fish, as well as the ones that have been penned for 24 hours.
On the same day at the study site, DFO biologist Jayme Hills is collecting blood and tissue samples, while Donaldson inserts the radio transmitter tags into live fish.
“I’ve taken samples from the heart, liver, muscle, gill, and brain,” Hills says.
She’s also collecting blood plasma and DNA samples to find out what sockeye stock the Fraser sockeye belonged to, and looking to see which stress indicators are present in the blood.
“We can look at a bunch of different things with five tissues, including everything from immune response to osmoregulation, to how prepared they were for fresh water.”
They’re sampling fish from in fresh water, as well as from the ocean to compare.
“The radio-tagging opens up a window onto a totally different world,” said Thomas.
The study is open to volunteer anglers of all experience levels. Check out www.thinksalmon.com/fswp_project/item/fraser_sockeye_hook_and_release_mortality_study/ for the results from year one.
This is the final week of the sockeye study on the Fraser for this year.
jfeinberg@theprogress.co
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anyone get a ride across what time do they leave isl22 and what time do they bring u back ?
The guys running taxi service start @ 0730 'til 0800 --bring you back @ 2:30 -- sometimes somebody else will leave early & you can hitch a ride with them--- Tight Lines
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We caught over 60 sockeye today in the name of science lol
That's odd-- I was there all day 'til 2:30 -- 21 rods present and official count was 38 --LOL sure you were there Scalper??
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Have uploaded the first 2 video's I shot of the study. I hope you find some of it educational.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ3SiBgY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSHaeSfbSTc
A couple more to come later.
Great work Chris-- see-I don't criticisize All the time ----- Tight lines
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OK this may sound dumb but the radio transmitters they are puttin in the fish can they help with poachers also you know like if the fish leave the water illegally not sure who to prove it but could they use the transmitter to find out where it is i know its probably a dumb question but i was just wondering that as i was reading the article thanks guys and don't laugh at me to much lol
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Gaffer he even said in that news article about us catching 63 fish that day u sure u where ?
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So the DFO and this organization called the Fraser Basin Council have started testing under the name Fraser Salmon and Watershed Program. They also look at flood control measures with no consideration of what that does to fish habitat. Kudo's to them that use deception with Government money and oranizational names that confuse and uninform people as to the real intent. It usually works.
Some info from Fraser Basin Council
http://www.fraserbasin.bc.ca/programs/basin_wide.html
There non-biased hand picked lineup
[color=yellow]Of the 36 Directors, 22 are appointed by the four orders of government: three by the federal government, three by the provincial government, one by each of the eight regional districts in the Basin, and one by each of the Basin's eight First Nations language groups. The remaining 14 Directors are non-governmental representatives appointed by the FBC. These 14 include two representatives from each of the Basin's five geographic regions, one Basin-wide representative for each of the three dimensions of sustainability (economic, social and environmental), and an impartial Chair.[/color]
Aboriginal and Non-Aboriginal Partnerships
One of the unique features of FBC is that First Nations are original signatories to the Charter for Sustainability and have participated fully in the FBC Board and its activities since FBC was established in 1997.
FBC is working to identify ways that it can more effectively apply Principle 11 of the Charter, which states: "We recognize that aboriginal nations within the Fraser Basin assert aboriginal rights and title. These rights and title now being defined must be acknowledged and reconciled in a just and fair manner."
To this end, FBC is working with First Nations Board members and its New Relationship Committee to:
Interpret the meaning of Principle 11 and its relevance to sustainability.
Explore ways that FBC can better demonstrate application of Principle 11 in its current and future activities.
Develop a reference document that constructively and objectively summarizes First Nations history in the Basin, relevant court decisions, current challenges and opportunities for applying Principle 11, and key lessons drawn from FBC's experience on improving cooperation between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people in the Fraser Basin.
For more information, contact:
Ernie Victor
Manager, Aboriginal Community Liaison
Tel: 604-997-9907
Email: evictor@fraserbasin.bc.ca
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Pricing incentives were introduced in the fall of 2007 to encourage membership in the E3 Fleet program and amount to cost savings of 50%. For details, visit the E3 Fleet website or contact Program Manager Jim Vanderwal at jvanderwal@fraserbasin.bc.ca.
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Energy Efficiency and Buildings: A Resource for BC's Local Governments is now available online [PDF: 3.1 MB].
The Community Action on Energy and Emissions (CAEE) initiative provides financial and research support to BC local governments to advance energy efficiency through local government policy and planning tools. This initiative was previously called "Community Action on Energy Efficiency," but has been broadened to deal with renewable energy and sustainable transportation.
The CAEE is a key element of the Province's new Energy Plan 2007 and a cornerstone of the Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources' strategy document Energy Efficiency in Buildings: A Plan for BC, which outlines targets for new and existing residential, commercial, institutional and industrial buildings, to be reached by 2010.
The Fraser Basin Council provides overall program administration for this initiative, with funding support from BC Ministry of Energy and Mines, BC Ministry of Environment, Natural Resources Canada, Vancity, Real Estate Foundation, BC Hydro and Terasen Gas.
For more information, visit the CAEE initiative page on the BC Climate Exchange website.
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The Fraser Basin Council has worked for many years with government authorities advancing flood hazard management for the communities along the Fraser. For details, please see Flood Hazard Management.
Fraser Salmon and Watersheds
A new program is underway in the Fraser Basin to build a better future for fish and fisheries in the Fraser Basin through inclusive, collaborative partnerships.
The Fraser Salmon and Watersheds Program (FSWP) is a multi-year initiative to conserve and restore the diversity and abundance of salmon within the Fraser Basin. The FSWP began in 2007, with a contribution of $10 million over four years from the provincial Living Rivers Trust Fund and a further commitment of $10 million ($5M cash and $5M in-kind, over five years) from Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
The Fraser Salmon and Watersheds Program is jointly managed by the Fraser Basin Council (FBC) and the Pacific Salmon Foundation (PSF). A Steering Committee, with representatives from federal, provincial, and Aboriginal governments, as well as the two co-managing organizations and others, provides oversight to the program. Funding is administered through the Pacific Salmon Foundation.
The Fraser Salmon and Watershed Program is built on a vision: To inspire changes in human behaviour to the benefit of salmonids and the watersheds they depend on.
Mr.Troutbreath--- Today @ the Grassy Bar your tax money was earning interest---- 21 rods caught 10( as of noon -I left early)which makes a grand total of Sockeye caught in 2 years of a 3 yr study almost 300 fish-- 2 have died after 24 hrs from hook caused injuries 1 from a previous seal bite So so far we,ve almost proved conclusively - Scientifically- what we,ve said all along------ less than 1% mortality from hools -- I'd say that's a pretty good bang for the tax/Fraser Basin Council Buck--- Wouldn't you ?-- Tight lines
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Have uploaded the first 2 video's I shot of the study. I hope you find some of it educational.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ3SiBgY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSHaeSfbSTc
A couple more to come later.
Chris on clip 63 were those Jack Springs the fella moved out of the way so Alex could net the Sockeye?--- Tight lines
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Chris on clip 63 were those Jack Springs the fella moved out of the way so Alex could net the Sockeye?--- Tight lines
I believe they were jacks and pinks.
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From Frank
We are now catching almost zero sockeye at the study. Even the beach seine which ran today during six sets only caught one. However the beach seine is getting about 100 pinks per set.
We have way to many volunteers now and can't really handle the crowd. Studies last day is tomorrow, Friday.
Our mortality should come in at less than 2% baring some freaky incident.
For those of you who helped, thanks. No need to come tomorrow.
Will send you the numbers when I get them.
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Id ike to see the results of the tagging program to get a real feel for mortality rates.
Those fish have a lot further to go than Grassy bar ;).
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Id ike to see the results of the tagging program to get a real feel for mortality rates.
Those fish have a lot further to go than Grassy bar ;).
Are you a scientist?
I understand they already have some scientists studying the results.
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Gaffer he even said in that news article about us catching 63 fish that day u sure u where ?
According to the Guy running the show-- WEDNESDAY 63 fish caught -- 38 on TUES -- yup I know where uwuz not
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The 2nd year of a three year study into the Sockeye catch & release hook mortality study has now been completed. The Raw Data (not yet official) shows In wk # 1--106 sockeye were caught & after 24 hrs released from the holding pen -- 2 mortalities------ In wk # 2-- :) 155 caught --- 3 mortalities , In wk # 3-- 34 caught -- O(zero) mortalities TOTAL for 2009 = 295 caught-- 5 mort or 1.7% of total catch combined with 173 caught last year and 1 hook mortality& 1 Seal bit mortality (2) Means ----468 sockeye caught with 6 dead = --1.28% for both years. Even with the DFO estimated total catch & release of Fraser River Sockeye Aug 1 to Aug 16 count of 12,800 fish during the Chinook Sport Fishery, That still works out to 164 fish or 1.28% ! Sure doesn't look to Me like we, the sports fishers , are decimating the Sockeye fishery in the Fraser. Wonder what the next scapegoat for DFO will be ?-- Cheers --Tight lines/sharp hooks
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Interesting report.
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Gaffer
Although short term mortalities tend to show that the angling community is having very little impact on the resource that may not be the case. One of the major causes of mortalities is the removal of the protective slim coating on the fish. Fungus related problems would not show up after 24 hours. However, after 5 -10 days depending on water temperatures you could see real problems.
One of the potential problems with the sockeye fishery as I see it is the catch and release of these fish. There should be no catch and release and once you have caught your 2 fish you should be finished for the day.
It really annoys me when anglers come up to me and tell me that they have caught and released 30 sockeye. Big deal, its not as if they are biting. If there are delayed mortalities related to catch and release you can see how this would affect stocks.
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One of the potential problems with the sockeye fishery as I see it is the catch and release of these fish. There should be no catch and release and once you have caught your 2 fish you should be finished for the day.
It really annoys me when anglers come up to me and tell me that they have caught and released 30 sockeye. Big deal, its not as if they are biting. If there are delayed mortalities related to catch and release you can see how this would affect stocks.
I agree with this since when they are open they are in thick so the impact is larger. They should make a rule that you must retain the first 2 sockeye caught and then stop fishing. If you catch a spring before then great if not try again next time or when they close socs. If someone really wanted to keep fishing they could try another system for something other than sockeye or target sturgeon (esp. for the guides since their clients would want to keep fishing for the dollars they spent.) From my experience most people will take their 2 and go home but some stay to try and get a spring. I think this rule is reasonable becuase the sockeye are only open for a short time anyways so there is lots of opportunities to get a spring.
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Buck's comment that would apply to all fish not just sockeye.
Good thing sockeye isn't biting. Otherwise the mortality rate would be higher.
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Gaffer
Although short term mortalities tend to show that the angling community is having very little impact on the resource that may not be the case. One of the major causes of mortalities is the removal of the protective slim coating on the fish. Fungus related problems would not show up after 24 hours. However, after 5 -10 days depending on water temperatures you could see real problems.
One of the potential problems with the sockeye fishery as I see it is the catch and release of these fish. There should be no catch and release and once you have caught your 2 fish you should be finished for the day.
It really annoys me when anglers come up to me and tell me that they have caught and released 30 sockeye. Big deal, its not as if they are biting. If there are delayed mortalities related to catch and release you can see how this would affect stocks.
[/as you say Buck"If there are mortalities after release " -- the fish in the study were netted using the usual techniques , Not handled with bare hands etc, etc and perhaps some lost some slime but I am assured by Scientists , using Scientific knowledge & training that they (the Sockeye) in the course of migrating lose slime AND contract various fungii in the natural course of things--- Remember from the time the salmonids enter fresh water in their homeward migration they are dying---it's irreversible Except for some of the anadromous (seagoing types like Mykiss, and Clarkii ) ---- Tight lines /sharp hooks
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Buck's comment that would apply to all fish not just sockeye.
Good thing sockeye isn't biting. Otherwise the mortality rate would be higher.
Why would the mortality be higher ? Are you saying the numbers would be higher or the % age? Wouldn't the netting mortality also be higher , crowding on the spawning redds mortality higher , incedental mortality higher ?-- perhaps I'm missing your point--- Cheers
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Even with the DFO estimated total catch & release of Fraser River Sockeye Aug 1 to Aug 16 count of 12,800 fish during the Chinook Sport Fishery,
I find this hard to believe - especially considering the "fact" that the First Nations 8 weeks catch with drift nets is only 21,182. If all those hours of fir drifting with nets stretched good distances, across the most producive waters the First NAtions can find, only produced 21,182 Sockeye#, how could recreational fishers wiith hooks smaller than quarters catch more than 1/2 that many fish in 2 weeks?
Someone's math is WAY OFF!
# http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/SockeyeKeptCatch.html
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I find this hard to believe - especially considering the "fact" that the First Nations 8 weeks catch with drift nets is only 21,182. If all those hours of fir drifting with nets stretched good distances, across the most producive waters the First NAtions can find, only produced 21,182 Sockeye#, how could recreational fishers wiith hooks smaller than quarters catch more than 1/2 that many fish in 2 weeks?
Someone's math is WAY OFF!
# http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/SockeyeKeptCatch.html
Of course DFO's math is off... They calculate sockeye encounters by doing fly overs and counting the number of anglers on the river. Then they multiply that by some multiple obtained through creel surveys, sockey C&R test fishery encounters(which are actually targeting sockeye)and best guesses?? The numbers are going to be high just no way to tell how exaggerated they are....
You can imagine how off the FN numbers are, they are self reported.....
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Of course DFO's math is off... They calculate sockeye encounters by doing fly overs and counting the number of anglers on the river. Then they multiply that by some multiple obtained through creel surveys, sockey C&R test fishery encounters(which are actually targeting sockeye)and best guesses?? The numbers are going to be high just no way to tell how exaggerated they are....
You can imagine how off the FN numbers are as they as strictly self reported.....
You Betcha they're off and---- my words start with B. & S.-----The other formulae they use are bogus why not these ? ---tight lines/ sharp hooks
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I am starting to wonder if the report on the radio tagged sockeye has been released yet.
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It would be awesome to see the telemetry. Dr. Thomas Quinn did an awesome study some years back and it was fascinating how far they actually travel.
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Quinn's work years ago was indeed interesting. Technology has come along way since then
Have a look here if you are interested
http://faculty.forestry.ubc.ca/hinch/Salmon%20mig%20and%20repro%20pubs.html
http://oceantrackingnetwork.org/
http://www.postcoml.org/
http://www.kintamaresearch.org/
Regarding the catch and release study, I thought the report was done. Hopefully soon it will be released
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Report of year two's study is now available:
http://www.thinksalmon.com/fswp_project/item/fraser_sockeye_hook_and_release_mortality_study_year_2/
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Thanks for the link Rod - I participated last year and am interested in their findings.
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Sockeye Hook & Release Pilot Mortality Study update
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/xnet/content/fns/index.cfm?pg=view_notice&lang=en&DOC_ID=126233&ID=recreational
The Fraser Salmon & Watershed Program (FSWP) in conjunction with the Department of Fisheries & Oceans (DFO) is conducting the third year of a sockeye hook and release study in the Fraser River to determine the short term (24 hour) mortality of sockeye caught and released in recreational fisheries.
A contract biologist, Jim Thomas of JO Thomas & Associates (JOT), will be responsible for the operational aspects of the study.
We are seeking interested volunteers to assist us in the study. We need approximately 35 anglers each day of the study. If you are interested please join us at the location and time noted below. There is no need to sign up, just come on down.
Study Design: fish will be caught by the usual recreational fishing methods and also by beach seine. Sockeye health will be assessed and the fish will be tagged and placed into a net pen and held for 24 hours. After the 24 hour period the fish health will be assessed again and they will be released. In addition, up to 200 radio tags will be applied to the sockeye and immediately released.
Species and Amounts: the goal is to catch up to 800 sockeye by angling and beach seine methods. All live sockeye will be released after the 24 hour period.
Meeting Location and Time: Island 22 boat launch each day of the study at 7:30 AM. Please make sure you park in the appropriate parking area for your vehicle type. Limited transportation to the study area will be available for those without boats.
Location of Study: Grassy Bar - a portion of the bar will be marked off and used solely for the purpose of the study.
Timing of Study: three 5 day time periods August 9-13, August 16-20 and August 23-27. Note: This schedule may be changed if a recreational sockeye retention fishery is announced and a further fishery notice will be released.
Given the varying weather conditions we've experienced please make sure you are prepared and bring enough liquids to keep yourself hydrated. You may also need rain jackets, sunscreen, bug repellant and a hat.
Similar to previous years you need to provide your rod, reel and line and if you want your terminal tackle. If you prefer we will have a selection of hooks, corkies, weights, leader and wool available.
We're looking for volunteer anglers of all experience levels so come on out and join us.
For information on year one results please visit:
http://www.thinksalmon.com/fswp_project/item/fraser_sockeye_hook_and_release_mortality_study/
Notes:
Did you witness suspicious fishing activity or a violation? If so, please call the Fisheries and Ocean Canada 24-hour toll free Observe, Record, Report line at (800) 465-4336.
For the 24 hour recorded opening and closure line, call toll free at (866) 431-FISH.
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In regards to the Sockeye mortality study, what are they referring to as the "usual fishing methods "? From the numbers of fish that they want to catch and the #'s of anglers per day over the 3 test periods they want to participate, would I be wrong to suggest that ... ahem ... bouncing along the bottom is a usual method ?
Has anyone participated in last seasons study ? Thoughts anyone ? ?
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In regards to the Sockeye mortality study, what are they referring to as the "usual fishing methods "? From the numbers of fish that they want to catch and the #'s of anglers per day over the 3 test periods they want to participate, would I be wrong to suggest that ... ahem ... bouncing along the bottom is a usual method ?
Has anyone participated in last seasons study ? Thoughts anyone ? ?
Yes, unfortunately they floss, if they did not the fish would be far between and so would the anglers. :-X Last year they allowed chinooks to be retained. :o I think they should radio tag the chinooks too, to see how they make out after being played to exhaustion using 12 foot or longer leaders. ???
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Yes, unfortunately they floss, if they did not the fish would be far between and so would the anglers. :-X Last year they allowed chinooks to be retained. :o I think they should radio tag the chinooks too, to see how they make out after being played to exhaustion using 12 foot or longer leaders. ???
Why would playing them out with a 12 foot leader or a 24 inch bar rig leader be any different Chris? In both cases, if the fish are successfully landed they are destined for the barbecue.
If the chinook spits the hook....... physics suggests it's ridiculous to assume that a long leader is any different than a short leader when it comes to the survival rate of the chinook! ::) In fact because a bar rigged chinook is hooked inside the mouth rather than outside the mouth it is much more likely that a released bar rig chinook will bleed much more than a released chinook that was flossed.
I suggest we stop throwing out that one method is better or worse than another, and that we just go fishing! ;D
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Why would playing them out with a 12 foot leader or a 24 inch bar rig leader be any different Chris? In both cases, if the fish are successfully landed they are destined for the barbecue.
If the chinook spits the hook....... physics suggests it's ridiculous to assume that a long leader is any different than a short leader when it comes to the survival rate of the chinook! ::) In fact because a bar rigged chinook is hooked inside the mouth rather than outside the mouth it is much more likely that a released bar rig chinook will bleed much more than a released chinook that was flossed.
I suggest we stop throwing out that one method is better or worse than another, and that we just go fishing! ;D
Never will go for this flossing of fish or the HST either. ;D ;D
The only thing I could accept although I would no ever do it again, last time was 8 years ago. ::) but really do not like the practice for the many reason's mentioned several times over the year by me and others. Floss away when the sockeye are OPEN, take your two sockeye and go home, not keep trying for a chinook and in the process hook many more sockeye that have to be released. I used to hear people boast that they had caught 50 sockeye in one day. :o ???
Of course as we all know the plague of flossing has spread to all rivers the last few years and is a black mark for recreational angling. It also was used by another sector to keep us out of an earlier opening for chinook this year although FOC will give other reason's. Article was in the Chilliwack Progress web page but is not there now.
Why do I still keep writing on this subject? Because each year more people stop doing this activity and maybe by me writing about it again others will see it for what it is and fish in a manner that give the fish the choice to bite or not.
The way F/N and Commercial netting is a different way of fishing, ours is supposed to be a recreational activity. If you have not read Riobert Haig - Brown's books please do as they give us all an excellent insight of how angling evolved for him and how he treasured and respected our fishes throughout his life.
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The way F/N and Commercial netting is a different way of fishing, ours is supposed to be a recreational activity. If you have not read Riobert Haig - Brown's books please do as they give us all an excellent insight of how angling evolved for him and how he treasured and respected our fishes throughout his life.
I agree that talking about it may cause some fishermen to evolve to finer forms of sports fishing. However potential for arguments still exist between the fly fisherman and the bait fishermen, between the sinking fly line fisherman and the floating line fly fisherman, etc, etc. Why not just let people fish?
The point is that there are all sorts of ways to catch fish. As long as they are legal; using a net, or a long line, or a hunk of roe, or a fly line is just a preferred way of catching a fish. Neither is better or worse, ethical or non-ethical.
Perhaps a flosser turned bar fishermen, could be compared to a smoker turned non-smoker who goes on a crusade to convince the world that smoking is bad for you..... Maybe it is, but why do so many people do it??? ;D ;D
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I agree that talking about it may cause some fishermen to evolve to finer forms of sports fishing. However potential for arguments still exist between the fly fisherman and the bait fishermen, between the sinking fly line fisherman and the floating line fly fisherman, etc, etc. Why not just let people fish?
The point is that there are all sorts of ways to catch fish. As long as they are legal; using a net, or a long line, or a hunk of roe, or a fly line is just a preferred way of catching a fish. Neither is better or worse, ethical or non-ethical.
Perhaps a flosser turned bar fishermen, could be compared to a smoker turned non-smoker who goes on a crusade to convince the world that smoking is bad for you..... Maybe it is, but why do so many people do it??? ;D ;D
I am trying to wrote the journal as making too many posts tonight on several topics ;D but if you ask why so many floss. One, because their dentist says to :D and the other is because it is easy to catch fish, no skill or learning curve needed. Just buy a cheap rod, reel, hooks (no wool or corkie needed), an array of betties, lots of leader material as you need 12 to 20 feet and away you go.
Why do people smoke? Is it because people think it looks cool or is it to relieve tension. Better to go bar fishing as it very relaxing, you can even catch up on your rest while flossing is combat fishing during the sockeye mayham that can turn into the world of boxing and wrestling. ;D ;D
I will leave it here, even though once a flosser does not mean you will be one forever. Hey, you might even change your thoughts on the HST. ;D
I will write a story that happened to a bar fisher yesterday watch for this story in General D..
That's after a coffee break, (at this hour?) no, not a smoke break. ;D ;D
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"Why would playing them out with a 12 foot leader or a 24 inch bar rig leader be any different Chris?"
Seeing Chris hasn't answered the question I will. Because the 12 to 16 ounce bar weights kick the jeebus out of the fish. :)
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Why would playing them out with a 12 foot leader or a 24 inch bar rig leader be any different Chris? In both cases, if the fish are successfully landed they are destined for the barbecue.
If the chinook spits the hook....... physics suggests it's ridiculous to assume that a long leader is any different than a short leader when it comes to the survival rate of the chinook! ::) In fact because a bar rigged chinook is hooked inside the mouth rather than outside the mouth it is much more likely that a released bar rig chinook will bleed much more than a released chinook that was flossed.
I suggest we stop throwing out that one method is better or worse than another, and that we just go fishing! ;D
When bar fishing I donot release the fish unless it is species that is closed to retention. Most days bar fishing is slow and you have to put in your time to even hook a chinook. As has been related before we get very few sockeye bar fishing although i hope I hook one during the opening this week when fishing the good doctor that will be green, I think. :-\
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"Why would playing them out with a 12 foot leader or a 24 inch bar rig leader be any different Chris?"
Seeing Chris hasn't answered the question I will. Because the 12 to 16 ounce bar weights kick the jeebus out of the fish. :)
See above.
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This year's sockeye salmon catch and release mortality study result is now available for viewing:
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/101126-1.html
There's quite a bit of good information being put together in it IMO. Page 23's comparison in C&R short term mortality rate of different techniques reflects is very interesting. I also like that there is now differentiation between short and long term mortalities.
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Wow some of those numbers surprise me! Circle hooks vs J hooks...flossed fish vs bait caught fish...
30% of coho dying after hooked on a bar rig with roe with J hooks. Hmmm may have to rethink my bar fishing techniques for coho and just stick to lures.
Do 30% of the Bull Trout I catch on roe/worms die?
Good read.
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Yeah, this is indeed an interesting read. Will be better though when the telemetry data assessing long term mortality has been analysed. Kudos to all who were involved in this study, especially the volunteers and funders :)
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Yeah this was very interesing especially to see that fish that bit are more likley to die then when hooked by a BB rig.
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All those stats pertaining to mortality are cool to see, but how many people use cut plug herring to release fish ?? ::) Pretty stupid way to fish if you plan on practicing C&R. >:( The same goes for the roe too. If your fishing roe, you should be looking to keep the fish. Practicing C&R should be done with the appropriate gear/fly as to not have the hook end up in the gut, as fish that feed on bait such as roe and herring more often than not,attempt to swallow the stuff in one good strike, resulting in a deeper hook set that leads to more gill damage.
While the stats say that flossing has low mortality rates, they also say that the fish are hooked in the body too. Nothing like watching a rookie that's never fished before, reefing in a sockeye by the back. Pure disgusting IMO, ::) and if they banned the flossing method all together, the mortality rate would decline like no tomorrow, because 80% or more of the so called anglers, would disappear. ::) ;D