Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: spey on January 27, 2008, 08:04:15 PM
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i dont know y anybody would kill a cutthroat, ever. Especially right now as they are just about 2 spawn.
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i dont know y anybody would kill a cutthroat, ever. Especially right now as they are just about 2 spawn.
so you never fish for any salmon or trout that enter a river system to spawn and keep one
where do you fish?
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no, i just feel bad killing a cutthroat
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if people actually Knew how few adult Cuthroat are out there, they might think twice about killing them... nice fish, to bad there dead...Kill a chum they taste the same...
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if people actually Knew how few adult Cuthroat are out there, they might think twice about killing them... nice fish, to bad there dead...Kill a chum they taste the same...
I totally agree. You cant compare salmon to cutthroat. Go do some research on cutthroat or talk to some old timers who keep journals on cutthroat. You would be amazed at their decline.
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if people actually Knew how few adult Cuthroat are out there, they might think twice about killing them... nice fish, to bad there dead...Kill a chum they taste the same...
I totally agree. You cant compare salmon to cutthroat. Go do some research on cutthroat or talk to some old timers who keep journals on cutthroat. You would be amazed at their decline.
You're right... cutts are definitely on the decline...but then again, what species of salmonid isn't on a major decline??
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I dont see anything wrong with the killing of these fish.
They were hatchery fish and they were well within there limit.
Spend your energy writing to the Ministry of Environment if you think they should be closed to retention.
I dont kill Cutthroat myself but im certainly not going to tell others what they can and cant keep if within the regs. ::)
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First Light, with all the snow and crappy weather, there have been a lot of car accidents. I would hazard a guess that many accidents even happen below the posted speed limit because of particularly bad conditions. Now would you say a guy driving 70 in an 80 zone and who got into a car accident, did nothing wrong? After all he was within the "limit"? Certain times require higher levels of caution. I think retaining these cutts on the chehalis are a very similiar example.
I don't think anyone has suggested he broke any laws but sometimes just doing what the law requires isn't enough. I personally look at those fish as having a far great value as living parts of an ecosystem who will propagate and increase the population...in comparison to being part of a meal.
Just like cammer noted, I too have seen maybe a couple of cutts on the chehalis...and I have fished it for over 15 years. These guys finding 3 specimens like this certainly is a surprise and they did ultimately remove a large chunk of the total population on that river. This perspective is something I am sure they weren't aware of up til now...hopefully through dialog like this, they and others will reconsider such actions in the future.
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Thanks for sharing your points, info and suggestions, I also agree with Gooey--sometimes just doing what the law requires isn't enough.
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I'm actually suprised that the Chehalis hatchery clips those cutts...
The populations should be given a chance to recover before kill fisheries are re-introduced.
Historically the Harrison had a world class throphy cutthroat fishery, with many fish in the 2-5 lb class... It's a shame we can't bring that back.
-Nicole
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i'm with firstlight.....if the law isn't enough then go to the higher up and ask for change.
as far as the speed limit analogy...there's what they refer to as 'tolerance'...that's why cops don't always pull you over when you're doing
80 in a 70 zone. how many times have you overtaken a car on the highway because you felt the driver was driving too slow even when you knew full well they were doing the speed limit? semantics only solidify the argument that there is no right or wrong in this case.
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First Light, with all the snow and crappy weather, there have been a lot of car accidents. I would hazard a guess that many accidents even happen below the posted speed limit because of particularly bad conditions. Now would you say a guy driving 70 in an 80 zone and who got into a car accident, did nothing wrong? After all he was within the "limit"? Certain times require higher levels of caution. I think retaining these cutts on the chehalis are a very similiar example.
I don't think anyone has suggested he broke any laws but sometimes just doing what the law requires isn't enough. I personally look at those fish as having a far great value as living parts of an ecosystem who will propagate and increase the population...in comparison to being part of a meal.
Just like cammer noted, I too have seen maybe a couple of cutts on the chehalis...and I have fished it for over 15 years. These guys finding 3 specimens like this certainly is a surprise and they did ultimately remove a large chunk of the total population on that river. This perspective is something I am sure they weren't aware of up til now...hopefully through dialog like this, they and others will reconsider such actions in the future.
sometimes when i read your posts, i get offended...wasn't it you 2 years ago who posted a picture of a summer run steelie (from the vedder) who took a lot of flack from some members because they accused you of retaining a fish from an endangered run?....i believe i was one of the few members who defended you on the same merit. (maybe rodney can find and post that thread to help refresh your memory).
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If given any chance, guys will kill whatever they can for no other reason then that..WHY? Stop preaching about going to the higher up that's total B.S. excuse and only shows how weak some arguments are on here...No credible reason to kill those fish, just a shame!!!
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I killed a searun cutty last year and felt like crap afterwards. Didn't taste like chum though, was quite nice.
Many people probably rely on the reg's (albeit too heavily) to tell them what is "reasonable" to keep within a system...people new to the fishery or simply people that are not as die hard as some of us are are doing nothing wrong "morally" by killing a couple fish if the only knowledge they have of a species sustainability is what they have gathered from the regs. You can't expect people to "know" that the cutty population is hurting if it receives little press outside of certain circles.
Personally I'd like to see a no-kill reg. for them.
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If given any chance, guys will kill whatever they can for no other reason then that..WHY? Stop preaching about going to the higher up that's total B.S. excuse and only shows how weak some arguments are on here...No credible reason to kill those fish, just a shame!!!
just like how fishermen will kill doe white springs for their roe and give away the meat with disregard.
i guess we should just forget about diplomacy and get right into anarchy.
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And it always turns out this way:
A newer member shows some pictures or report (within the reg. limited), got slammed...
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I'm actually surprised that the Chehalis hatchery clips those cutts...
-Nicole
Those aren't necessarily Chehalis Cutthroat. These trout migrate to all systems. Could be Fraser stock, Harrison.... It is not uncommon to catch Cutthroat and Dollies in the Chehalis this time of year.
Being an avid Cutthroat fisherman I can tell you, for sure their numbers have declined.
I don't kill Cutthroat either but if I did only one of those fish would of been bonked. The other 2 are in spawn mode (take a pic and let them go) and will not be good table fare. A waste of future fish imo but the fisherman has a right to take them as long as they stay within the regs.
I would love to see a no kill and bait ban (to many are gut hooked) for all river/sea run Cutts for awhile.
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Bladerunner, you are too much...really. "sometimes when i read your posts, i get offended"...did i offend you in some way at some point in the past (maybe distant past)?!?
You made a couple mistakes so I'll correct you were I can:
1) I retained a hatchery steelhead on the seymour 3-4 years back. I was fishing roe bags for coho and bumped into that summer run which ended up being hooked in the tounge and it was bleeding pretty bad...it was a nice clean fish so considering the perdicament, I bonked it. Maybe all 3 of those fish were bleeders too, I don't know (and I certainly slag/bash fossl) but please, if you are going to throw something in my face, get your facts straighte. It was the only steelhead I have ever retained on the seymour and after quite a bit of volunteer work on that system, I didnt feel bad about taking from a river I had given a lot to.
2) Fossil, the guy who retained those fish seemed to understand/value what I was saying.... you totally misunderstood my analogy, maybe go back and reread it without the bias (you seem to have a bone with me). I am saying sometimes you need to drive 50 in an 80 zone!
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A newer member shows some pictures or report (within the reg. limited), got slammed...
Not so, a discussion over a hot issue generated from a member's report isn't meant to slam the reporter. In fact, many have stated that the reporter has done nothing illegal. There will always be a few negative comments, which usually come from the same members, and after awhile it's pretty easy to filter their comments out by skipping through.
It's a good discussion. The problem isn't caused by the individual anglers, but the management of this particular fishery. Hatchery cutthroat trout are raised and the regulations are made to allow a hatchery kill fishery, so the program isn't exactly intended for enhancing the troubled population, but to provide an ongoing kill fishery. If you have a problem with it, then I highly encourage you to:
- Contact the representative of your fishing organization who can bring up the concern at the local SFAC meetings
- Contact the Freshwater Fisheries Society of BC
- Contact the provincial environment minister Barry Penner
You're paying for the programs, the fish belong to everyone, so let them know what you would like to see done differently. :)
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Is there a button for the filter ;D ;D
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I was talking about mental filter. ;D But I think there actually is an ignore function on the forum. I've never used it, because I just loooove to read all of the posts everyday... ;D :P
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"just like how fishermen will kill doe white springs for their roe and give away the meat with disregard."
It depends on if you give it away just because you wanted the roe and not the fish or if someone asked you for the fish i.e. you brought it home and a friend said they really wanted some fresh salmon. I have killed salmon and done the later, I have also killed a salmon and been asked by the boat owner if he could have it for his neighbor, which I did and kept the other. I will otherwise only keep what I am going to eat myself and if that means letting a hatchery fish go, I have done so and it doesn't bother me in the least...
While some do keep trout and in areas that have enough of them to warrant keeping, that is what it is..but to take what precious few there are out of a system that is as fragile as the Chehalis is no matter what the regs say and show them gutted on the ground shows a complete lack of any regard for the fish or the system it came out of...
I think these actions should be dealt with and discussed whether heatedly or not because it makes some of the new guys aware of what is and isn't acceptable...The same should have and did happen when the newbie with the bloody hands had his glory shot on here with the wild steelhead...It gives me hope to see others get as pissed off as I do seeing this kind of thing happening!!!
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The same should have and did happen when the newbie with the bloody hands had his glory shot on here with the wild steelhead...It gives me hope to see others get as pissed off as I do seeing this kind of thing happening!!!
I do agree with what is said about that picture. looks to be Bloody hand / dry wild fish / high on the rocks made that picture bad...
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I would love to see a no kill and bait ban (to many are gut hooked) for all river/sea run Cutts for awhile.
I completely agree with the no retention of SRC. They already have no retention for Bulls and Dollies in most of our region why not extend it to these beautiful fish?
Cheers
Nuggy
There is a non-retention of both wild trout and char in streams of Region 2. There are no hatchery raised/clipped bull trout and doly varden which makes the non-retention applied to all of them. For cutthroat trout, non-retention applies to all wild fish, while a daily quota of 2 fish is allowed for hatchery raised fish.
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Bladerunner, you are too much...really. "sometimes when i read your posts, i get offended"...did i offend you in some way at some point in the past (maybe distant past)?!?
You made a couple mistakes so I'll correct you were I can:
1) I retained a hatchery steelhead on the seymour 3-4 years back. I was fishing roe bags for coho and bumped into that summer run which ended up being hooked in the tounge and it was bleeding pretty bad...it was a nice clean fish so considering the perdicament, I bonked it. Maybe all 3 of those fish were bleeders too, I don't know (and I certainly slag/bash fossl) but please, if you are going to throw something in my face, get your facts straighte. It was the only steelhead I have ever retained on the seymour and after quite a bit of volunteer work on that system, I didnt feel bad about taking from a river I had given a lot to.
2) Fossil, the guy who retained those fish seemed to understand/value what I was saying.... you totally misunderstood my analogy, maybe go back and reread it without the bias (you seem to have a bone with me). I am saying sometimes you need to drive 50 in an 80 zone!
its great you've done alot of volunteer work for the seymour system...maybe i got the rivers mixed up (or maybe you didn't specify at the time and i guessed wrong) however, it doesn't change the fact that you were slagged and i supported you.
as far as facts are concerned...why slag someone for doing something within the regs? you got slagged for the same reasons, did you feel it to be justified? i just find it hypocritical on your part to make such a stance on that side of the fence, when you were in the same position, not so long ago.
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BR, had I released that fish, it would probably have died...that said, retaining it made sense. Do I think its hypacritical now...considering its was a bleeder, not really.
I don't think that fossil felt my post was an attack, in fact he acknowledged what I said so I can't help but think that he didn't feel slagged (if you did...sorry fossil).
Just like golfman pointed out, there are a lot of newbies mixed in with some very, very experienced (and passionate) fishers here. The experienced fishers who have been on the rivers as long as they have often get frustrated by seeing more of the same. You notice charle's comment "a new member post some pics..."...now I don't want to make assumptions but I think its a safe guess that a lot of these "new members" are also new fishers (ie the guys submitting pics with fingers in the gills, netting a wild steelhead, bonked fish that could be released, etc, etc). The experienced fishers here can and should share their "constructive feedback" and hopefully in the process, everyone including the fish, will come out ahead.
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I would try some flesh patterns as well. When I was out steelheading on my local flow I was watching some cutties feast on a carcass that was in the shallows(1-1.5' of water). It was pretty neat to watch. They would dart out from the cover of a cut bank and just slam the side of the carcass to get the flesh. They would then dart back to the cut bank.
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Don't see the problem here
These fish are bred for fishermen to fish for and keep 2 if they want (hatchery fish)
we are not talking about wild fish that do need protecting
I would be all for catch and release only but the rules say you can retain 2 hatch so leave the guy alone
and send your comments to the proper authorities
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What's the function of hatchery cutties anyways. If they are for brood, wouldn't they be left unclipped?
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I have had many lengthy discussions with a variety of people in the industry and one conversation that sticks out is the difference between Washington and Oregon stocking programs compared to BC. IN the US, hatchery programs are often designed to CREATE sport fishing opportunities! Imagine that. There is a river (the name escapes me) but they were taking excess returning adult hatchery steelhead and putting them in lakes to create lake fishing opportunities that wouldnt be there otherwise! This same river would collect any hatchery fish that made it to the top and truck them all down to the bottom again just so the fisherman could have another crack at em. These fish are all hatchery clones and believe me that there is a very strong put and take mentality down there (nothing wrong with that).
In BC though, the hatcheries are not run to create fishing opportunities at best they increase angling opportunities or augment the natural population. Cutties are a good example of a hatchery produced fish that isn't spawned to create an angling opportunity (unlike clipped coho/chinook/steelhead/etc). If you look at the impact we have had on natural populations of any creature, then I would say its a safe guess that these cutties are spawned to ensure the natural population doesn't disappear. But based on the production numbers, its safe to say cutties are not spawned to create a retention angling opportunities.
Britguy - yes Fossil was within he legal right to retain those hatchery fish. What many are saying here though is that those fish (based on weakening populations) should be considered for catch and release only. And you ad, "send your comments to the proper authorities..." thats a great way of placing the responsibility on someone else...kinda goes back to my analogy though were in certain scenarios we all should be more diligent than we may normally be. As well, the "proper authorities" in BC do not view hatchery programs as a way to return a run to its original healthy state so asking them to put a ban on retention of hatchery cutties will probably fall on deaf ears. Once again, it more or less puts the responsibility in our hands to do the right thing.
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You are lucky they were all mouth hooked....they take so aggressively that sometimes they will even take a fly deep. Like others here I would urge you to use the flyrod. I have had most success in early season on simple attractor patterns, and when it is cold like this a bead head never hurts to get it down a little lower. I've been into about 20 or so this year so far since a few weeks back, none came on flesh flies...but the biggest was only about 16", nothing in the 2-3lb range, good for you!! You might want to aim the camera lower next time ;)
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I just read some US statistics on C&R of cutties...the prior comments were very appropriate (particularly in the US where barbed hooks wee allowed):
4.5. Fishing Mortality
Use of bait for stream/riverine fishing of coastal cutthroat trout has been shown to result in high (up to 50 %) hooking mortality rates (Figure 11), as documented in a Washington State on wild cutthroat trout (Mongillo 1994). In this same study, the author concluded that bait fishing for salmonids, with the exception of adult winter steelhead, causes hook penetration in critical areas approximately 50% of the time versus artificials (i.e. lures or flies) that penetrate critical areas less than 10% of the time. Although this study may have included the use of baited barbed hooks, rather than the barbless hooks which apply through regulation to BC stream fisheries, additional hooking mortality study efforts have indicated that the average mortality rates for trout caught on baited hooks and then released were 33.5% for baited barbed hooks and 8.4% for baited barbless hooks (Taylor and White 1992).
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One other thing maybe worth mentioning (and I'm not sure if this has been anyone else's experience)....when I fish the fly just under the surface (a few inches) I tend to get more "slashing" takes.....and I don't think this is a good thing. It's exciting, sure, but more than once the hook has ended up very close to the eye, and once in the eye. Since I've started using a small bead head more often I'm getting much cleaner takes and more fish as well. Something to think about if you're really concerned about harming the fish.
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One other thing maybe worth mentioning (and I'm not sure if this has been anyone else's experience)....when I fish the fly just under the surface (a few inches) I tend to get more "slashing" takes.....and I don't think this is a good thing. It's exciting, sure, but more than once the hook has ended up very close to the eye, and once in the eye. Since I've started using a small bead head more often I'm getting much cleaner takes and more fish as well. Something to think about if you're really concerned about harming the fish.
Or if using flesh flies weight them a bit with a little lead wrap on the shank of the hook before you tie the fly.
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I don't know if it's just me but while out lastweek at 2 different spots on the backwaters on the fraser i hooked over 20 SRC in the 2 days! I was fishing very small spinners and spoons they all worked! The 20 cutties caught were between myself and a friend and we kept our 2 hatchery fish that averaged between 2-3 lbs! Now at this same time last year i fished these same waters with the same results! I keep a fish journal to keep records of when the fish are in the systems and what was used to catch them! Lots of wild fish i'd say it was 50/50 wild to hatchery! we kept our 2 hatchery fish per day! Now everyone says that we should leave the cutthroat trout alone but if were allowed to retain 2 hatchery fish per day why? Every outing i've had for cutthroat trout i've located them and hooked pleanty so IMHO For the years i've spent hunting sea runs i do not see a problem keeping my 2 (hatchery)fish per day while out fishing! Even the waters around here where i live produce very good numbers of cutties and i beleave the cutthroat trout that are hatcherys are for a kill fishery! So go get em there around in great numbers from what i've noticed over the years! Hatcherys do not use hatchery cliped fish to produce more hatchery fish! So with that said they are there for the taking! I wish people would stop complaining about targeting and retaining cutthroat trout Why else are they clipping them at the hatchery for anyways? TO KILL THEM! ;D CAN'T WAIT FOR TOMORROWS TRIP! Need a few more for the smoker! ;D Just my 2 cents on this subject!
CK
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Uh, ya ever consider that maybe hatchery fish can reproduce naturally and supply viable offspring that will ultimately help repopulate diminishing stocks? ??? Seriously, considering this community and the conservation approach of many of the members here, your comment could certainly be seen as a tad provocative!?!
i know very little about cutties having never targeted them but from the reading I have done, it does seem like their populations are very mobile...you may be hitting concentrations of fish from multiple systems that gather at a focal point each year...I don't really know and I assume you don't either so may I suggest that the caviler attitude towards the fishery certainly wont help it at all if indeed it is in the danger many people here think it is in. IMO, that whack em and stack em attitude is best saved for the peak sockeye runs :P
Let me ask you this...we all know what a S*** Show the sockeye fishery is and how the powers that be seem unable to properly manage that fishery or ensure appropriate escapement...so what makes you think they have a better handle on the Cutty Fishery? As an example, the report I am reading today states that at the current minimum size limit (30cm) is too small because many individuals of that size class may not have reached sexual maturity and hence wont get to spawn if hooked and retained. Further to that a 40cm fish has 2 times the egg load (fecundity) as a 30cm specimen which further highlighted this biologist's position that the current size limit is too small.
But hey, there sure seems to be a lot of em out there so everything must be fine...right?
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Uh, ya ever consider that maybe hatchery fish can reproduce naturally and supply viable offspring that will ultimately help repopulate diminishing stocks? ??? Seriously, considering this community and the conservation approach of many of the members here, your comment could certainly be seen as a tad provocative!?!
i know very little about cutties having never targeted them but from the reading I have done, it does seem like their populations are very mobile...you may be hitting concentrations of fish from multiple systems that gather at a focal point each year...I don't really know and I assume you don't either so may I suggest that the caviler attitude towards the fishery certainly wont help it at all if indeed it is in the danger many people here think it is in. IMO, that whack em and stack em attitude is best saved for the peak sockeye runs :P
Let me ask you this...we all know what a S*** Show the sockeye fishery is and how the powers that be seem unable to properly manage that fishery or ensure appropriate escapement...so what makes you think they have a better handle on the Cutty Fishery? As an example, the report I am reading today states that at the current minimum size limit (30cm) is too small because many individuals of that size class may not have reached sexual maturity and hence wont get to spawn if hooked and retained. Further to that a 40cm fish has 2 times the egg load (fecundity) as a 30cm specimen which further highlighted this biologist's position that the current size limit is too small.
But hey, there sure seems to be a lot of em out there so everything must be fine...right?
From my observations on this fishery and by talking to various co's and fisheries people the cuthroat population is rebounding just fine and that the hatchery fish are there for the taking! When hatchery fish return to the hatchery to spawn i've been told that there eggs are not used to reproduce the next generation of fish! ONLY WILD FISH ARE USED! I understand that some may not agree with my comments but i've done excellent in my search for sea-run cutties from fishing for them around cresent beach on the fly or throwing spoons and spinners in sloughs and rivers there around and hatchery fish are there for the taking! So why niot bonk em? They have no use when returned to the hatchery to spawn so what else are they there for? For a kill fishery! Why else do you buy a fishing licence for TO RETAIN FISH when allowed to do so by following the regs and the regs state i may retain 2 hatchery marked fish per day i don't just catch fish too look at! Even tho they are nice looking fish They tase pretty darn good too! Give em a try you just might like them!
CK
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Seriously, considering this community and the conservation approach of many of the members here, your comment could certainly be seen as a tad provocative!?!
But he's entitled to express those opinions. ;) The best approach would be to state your reasonings behind your view of this fishery and hope most readers would understand. There will always be people who will not agree with the catch and release practice when a daily quota is allowed. If those who are in favour of catching and releasing cutthroat trout only, the next step would be to push for the termination of the hatchery searun cutthroat trout fishery, which takes wild spawners to produce the stock. Take the fund from this hatchery program and use it on habitat enhancement to further enhance the wild population.
And you ad, "send your comments to the proper authorities..." thats a great way of placing the responsibility on someone else...
Not so. The Sportfishing Advisory Committee is responsible for asking Fisheries and Oceans Canada as well as Ministry of Environment at times to make changes in regulations that would benefit both the fish and the angling community. Closure of the chinook salmon on the Chilliwack River from January 1st to June 30th is a good example. Preaching to individual anglers who may or may not listen can certainly make a difference, but at a smaller scale. To make everyone comply to what you think it's right, a change in regulation and management is needed. Resource managers often rely on anglers to provide hands-on information to manage the fish stock effectively. I encourage all to get involved by joining a group that has a representation at the local SFAC meeting.
Back to the topic on eliminating high mortality of cutthroat trout by bait. Nuggy brought up that fishing spinners and spoons is a good alternative if you still want to fish gear without using bait. My only suggestion is to avoid using large hooks (or hooks with a wide gap). Large hooks has a tendency to penetrate through the eye or brain when the fish bites on them. This in fact is worse than a throat-hooked fish as it usually results in an instant death. I usually use size 4 or 6 hooks for my spoons and spinners. In another month or so, people should find both spoons and spinners to be quite effective as salmon fry emerge. Deep hooking is also the reason that I have stopped fishing bait for bull trout in the Tidal Fraser between early April and June. As fun as it is to catch multiple fish in a short time span, I feel that it is simply pointless to actually cause a high % of deaths in a catch and release fishery.
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Coho Killer, you have made a similar comment 2 times now: When hatchery fish return to the hatchery to spawn i've been told that there eggs are not used to reproduce the next generation of fish! ONLY WILD FISH ARE USED!
This is not a totally true statement. Hatchery fish are used for brood stock on a number of different systems/runs. As I have only ever participated in steelhead and coho brood stocking so I can tell you first hand, hatchery fish are used in some brood stocking activities. I can not speak to whether or not Hatchery cutties are being used for brood stock. As well, your statement "When hatchery fish return to the hatchery" makes me think that you are not considering that hatchery fish can and will spawn naturally in the river. The pic of the 3 fish that Fossil retained where good examples of fish that would have spawned in the river had they not been bonked.
PS here is a link to the 100 page paper I have quoted several times today...good read: http://www.shim.bc.ca/cutthroat/ct.pdf
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Coho killer....Also your talking about systems with reasonable Healthy stocks of hatchery fish...I'm more directly pointing out the Chehalis. There are a number of lakes etc. that produce fish for the taking...As far as cutties go or really even trips. I don't care for the muddy taste so don't..but I don't begrudge someone else doing it...(especially the heavily stocked lakes like tunkwa etc.) But that's NOT the Chehalis...that's my biggest beef..
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Coho Killer, you have made a similar comment 2 times now: When hatchery fish return to the hatchery to spawn i've been told that there eggs are not used to reproduce the next generation of fish! ONLY WILD FISH ARE USED!
This is not a totally true statement. Hatchery fish are used for brood stock on a number of different systems/runs. As I have only ever participated in steelhead and coho brood stocking so I can tell you first hand, hatchery fish are used in some brood stocking activities. I can not speak to whether or not Hatchery cutties are being used for brood stock. As well, your statement "When hatchery fish return to the hatchery" makes me think that you are not considering that hatchery fish can and will spawn naturally in the river. The pic of the 3 fish that Fossil retained where good examples of fish that would have spawned in the river had they not been bonked.
PS here is a link to the 100 page paper I have quoted several times today...good read: http://www.shim.bc.ca/cutthroat/ct.pdf
You are right a very good read!
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Coho killer....Also your talking about systems with reasonable Healthy stocks of hatchery fish...I'm more directly pointing out the Chehalis. There are a number of lakes etc. that produce fish for the taking...As far as cutties go or really even trips. I don't care for the muddy taste so don't..but I don't begrudge someone else doing it...(especially the heavily stocked lakes like tunkwa etc.) But that's NOT the Chehalis...that's my biggest beef..
I was only speaking of river and stream cutthroat trout! My biggest beef was how people cherish this fish and don't get me wrong they are beautiful to look at, but when it comes down to the fact hatchery fish were put into our systems for a kill fishery why not take a few home for the frying pan? Tops i take home betweeen 4-6 hatchery fish a season And smoke the whole fish in the smoker tastes great! If a fisherman/woman wants to catch and release these beauties to each there own! Just don't cry and whine to the fishermen/women who take a few home to eat every year that my point!
CK
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I don't think anyone here should presume to think that the cutthroat populations of the fraser and its subsystems are healthy....what are you comparing this to? When the guys who have been targeting cutthroat on the fraser and harrison for 50+ years say that the populations are in serious decline and not what they used to be, maybe we should listen and act appropriately. And why would they not be? With declines in salmon stocks (and therefore the flesh, eggs and fry), it is common sense that cutthroat populations are in turn being affected.
CK I highly doubt your experience last time out was a representative one. If it was, you should quit fishing and take up gambling.
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Coho Killer, you have made a similar comment 2 times now: When hatchery fish return to the hatchery to spawn i've been told that there eggs are not used to reproduce the next generation of fish! ONLY WILD FISH ARE USED!
This is not a totally true statement. Hatchery fish are used for brood stock on a number of different systems/runs. As I have only ever participated in steelhead and coho brood stocking so I can tell you first hand, hatchery fish are used in some brood stocking activities. I can not speak to whether or not Hatchery cutties are being used for brood stock. As well, your statement "When hatchery fish return to the hatchery" makes me think that you are not considering that hatchery fish can and will spawn naturally in the river. The pic of the 3 fish that Fossil retained where good examples of fish that would have spawned in the river had they not been bonked.
PS here is a link to the 100 page paper I have quoted several times today...good read: http://www.shim.bc.ca/cutthroat/ct.pdf
You are right a very good read!
This whole thread has been a good read. Thanks for all the info on the Sea Run Cutts. Didn't know how fragile the stocks were.
Thanks all :)
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I don't think anyone here should presume to think that the cutthroat populations of the fraser and its subsystems are healthy....what are you comparing this to?
This is a really good point and I feel that greater emphasis should be placed on it. The term "healthy stock" is used too loosely, not only by anglers but by professionals who work in the field. How should the current health of a fish stock be compared to? Last year? One decade ago? 50 years ago? One century ago? Do we purposely or unconsciously make smaller temporal comparisons to get a more optimistic outlook on the health of a fish population? This really is a downfall to the way we protect the resource. Trophy chinook salmon are not longer the ones in the 50lb+ range, but 30lb+ class, or even 20lb+ class. Gone were the days when one can hook multiple cutthroat trout in the Tidal Fraser River according to old timers, yet we like to think the population is not in trouble because with some hunting some multiple-fish days are still possible. This will keep happening, because the resource is not managed by the same staff long enough to detect the differences. Critical information is often not passed on. The trend is very similar to the shift of commercial catches worldwide. It's likely in a few decades from now that spiny dogfish will become the primary commercial species sold on boats in Steveston.
Several decades of catch data from angling clubs are actually good indicators of any shift in population number and fish size. In Europe, every member of a club who fish exclusively at a particular river system would submit their catch numbers at the end of the season, which is just as effective as the creel surveys that we spend a tremendous amount of tax dollars on.
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the purpose of the hatchery cutthroat is to provide a harvest fishery. They are not designed to augment a wild population. As in the past if walp feels that if these hatchery fish are not being utilized properly in a harvest fishery. They can and will decide to either curtail or remove production of these fish as to not allow them to compete with wild spawning populations. So one should have no guilt if they see fit to take the odd hatchery fish home for supper.
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the purpose of the hatchery cutthroat is to provide a harvest fishery. They are not designed to augment a wild population. As in the past if walp feels that if these hatchery fish are not being utilized properly in a harvest fishery. They can and will decide to either curtail or remove production of these fish as to not allow them to compete with wild spawning populations. So one should have no guilt if they see fit to take the odd hatchery fish home for supper.
new point, very interesting and usefull discussion! just as Rodney said, love to read the posts and learn more...
Marmot, I think 10 per day is not impossible at this time, we counted at least 40 cutts spread in some holes on 2KM river, and got 4 (1 wild). a fly fisherman got 6 hooked last weekend(Jan19), all are hatcherys, so--9:1
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Fish321, I can see your last post was your first, welcome to the forum! You made a comment "the purpose of the hatchery cutthroat is to provide a harvest fishery". Can you substantiate that? Lots of the vocal members here have been on the board for many years and we know eachothers back grounds...anyone can have an opion (I have lots ;) ) but before I put any weight behind a comment someone chooses to share, I like to know a little more about the source ...care to share a bit about yourself/back ground?
As anexample, I can't see the cutty stocking activities on the seymour or chehalis being activities that would be classified as ones designed to "provide a harvest fishery" so I was hoping you could quantify your statement for us?
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Fossil, 10 per day is not impossible at this time. I had a 9 fish day a few weeks ago. But this is not the norm.....and neither is 2-3 lbs average for these fish...especially this time of year. And again, if you are experiencing that, time to start gambling!!
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I suppose that I have assumed cutthroat and steelhead follow the same management principals. Since it is common knowledge the the ministry has decided that hatchery steelhead are not to be used and are not effective to restore a population. They are only used in areas that can provide a fishery a not over impact the wild population(eg. Vedder, Stamp etc..) In areas where they do not contribute to a harvest fishery most programs have been discontinued(eg. coquihalla, east coast van isle streams,Squamish etc..).
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Nothing wrong with taking a hatchery Cutthroat if that is what you want to do.
Just make sure the fish you decide to kill is in good condition. Let the hatchery spawner's go. They are not good eating and the smoker won't cure that problem.
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I don't think anyone here should presume to think that the cutthroat populations of the fraser and its subsystems are healthy....what are you comparing this to? When the guys who have been targeting cutthroat on the fraser and harrison for 50+ years say that the populations are in serious decline and not what they used to be, maybe we should listen and act appropriately. And why would they not be? With declines in salmon stocks (and therefore the flesh, eggs and fry), it is common sense that cutthroat populations are in turn being affected.
CK I highly doubt your experience last time out was a representative one. If it was, you should quit fishing and take up gambling.
MARMOT it's comments like that that make me laugh! Do you know me? NO! Who are you to say what i catch and don't catch? Were you there? Notice i never named the systems i was fishing? You have your right to your own opinion as does everyone else, but in all honesty, do you think if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? I've been a vey lucky angler over the years! I do my homework and i know when and where to fish through out the year! I keep a journal on what was caught on my outings, as well as what was used! Marmot doubt all ya want i have no reason to lie about my outings maybe you have to have a day or 2 like mine to truly respect this fishery! Good luck and tight lines!
CK
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MARMOT it's comments like that that make me laugh! Do you know me? NO! Who are you to say what i catch and don't catch? Were you there? Notice i never named the systems i was fishing? You have your right to your own opinion as does everyone else, but in all honesty, do you think if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? I've been a vey lucky angler over the years! I do my homework and i know when and where to fish through out the year! I keep a journal on what was caught on my outings, as well as what was used! Marmot doubt all ya want i have no reason to lie about my outings maybe you have to have a day or 2 like mine to truly respect this fishery! Good luck and tight lines!
CK, I think you've misinterpreted what Marmot was trying to say in his last post. He's not doubting your success in the latest outings or your angling skill, but he's suggesting that such trips misrepresent the cutthroat fishery as the success rate is generally low (ie. out of 100 trips, less than 10 of those maybe days like you've experienced).
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Before the Ferry ran out of Port Hardy we fished off the Government dock for sea run cutties. We used the pile perch cut in strips to catch them and you would get 50 or so chasing your bait. The faster you reeled, the bigger the Cutty was that would get hooked. Unfortunately they didn't taste that great. So I never kept many until I hit a nearby lake that had oodles of them in there. Those lake Cutties were much better tasting than the sea ones. I never liked the ones from the Harrison either, but none went to waste because I always had a hound around.
Anyway if they are some hatchery fish you want to eat, fill your boots Bobby. You haven't tasted good fish if you think their good. :P
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Im very new to this whole forum thing.I think its so neat how you can ask "hows the fishing been",a guy posts a couple pics.and bam its a red hot topic of ethics.I never realized there was such a controversy over the #s of SRC,this has really educated me alot on this subject.If a hatchery fish is able to spawn in any system doesent that make more wild fish that we can all pursue in the future?
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MARMOT it's comments like that that make me laugh! Do you know me? NO! Who are you to say what i catch and don't catch? Were you there? Notice i never named the systems i was fishing? You have your right to your own opinion as does everyone else, but in all honesty, do you think if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? I've been a vey lucky angler over the years! I do my homework and i know when and where to fish through out the year! I keep a journal on what was caught on my outings, as well as what was used! Marmot doubt all ya want i have no reason to lie about my outings maybe you have to have a day or 2 like mine to truly respect this fishery! Good luck and tight lines!
CK, I think you've misinterpreted what Marmot was trying to say in his last post. He's not doubting your success in the latest outings or your angling skill, but he's suggesting that such trips misrepresent the cutthroat fishery as the success rate is generally low (ie. out of 100 trips, less than 10 of those maybe days like you've experienced).
Thanks Rodney, yes, completely misinterpreted. I don't doubt that you did exceptionally well CK, and good going, its nice to see people catching... I'm saying if you did this well all the time, I would say you have been very lucky, as this is not the experience most people have going after these fish. As for retention being zero, no, I don't expect that DFO given their reactive nature lately would have the foresight to make such a move...nor do I see that as a solution. I'd far rather see a bait ban, just my opinion.
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In BC though, the hatcheries are not run to create fishing opportunities at best they increase angling opportunities or augment the natural population. Cutties are a good example of a hatchery produced fish that isn't spawned to create an angling opportunity (unlike clipped coho/chinook/steelhead/etc). If you look at the impact we have had on natural populations of any creature, then I would say its a safe guess that these cutties are spawned to ensure the natural population doesn't disappear. But based on the production numbers, its safe to say cutties are spawned to create angling opportunities.
not to butt heads with ya ???.....but....just like fish321, can you substantiate what you're claiming? seems you get just as much info based on here say and alot of feedback from old timers and avid cutt fishermen without hard numbers to back you up. this is not to dispute nor contradict what has been observed by them, but just an attempt to achieve fair play and accuracy of what is being claimed. if what you say is true then there should be a moratorium on cutt retention on the chehalis....just like what they've got in place for the cultus lake sockeye on the vedder.....or better yet, just like the sturgeon on the largest system here in bc.
"cutties are a good example of a hatchery produced fish that isn't spawned to create an angling opportunity"......."but based on the production numbers, its safe to say cutties are spawned to create angling opportunities." WTF ??? which is it? one or the other can't be both.
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BR, a lot of the the comments I made came from the 104 page report on cutty populations/etc...did you read any of that?
Heres the link again: http://www.shim.bc.ca/cutthroat/ct.pdf
As well, I have commercial fished, sport fished salmon and steelhead (for more than 20 years), volunteered at the seymour hatchery (on and off since 2002), I took genetics courses up to 3rd year, etc. A lot of my comments come from things I pick up from people involved in the industry like a family friend who (last time I checked) is on the board of the Greater Georgia Basin Steelhead Recovery Program as well as one of the directors of the Seymour hatchery.
Anyhow, I wanted to address a statement Coho Killer made:" if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? "
As Marmot points out, DFO and MOE are both very REACTIVE. Just look at the sockeye fishery or even better yet, east coast cod...these guys have proven time and again that they are reactive not proactive. The seymour hatchery fought a long time to have the steelhead run closed to retention ( JUST LAST YEAR IT WAS OPEN FOR 2 FISH A DAY)!!! Certainly the seymour can't have a healthier population of steelhead than the vedder, but for the longest time it was a 2 fish daily limit! Another prime example of the management team you place so much faith in, not having a clue.
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MARMOT it's comments like that that make me laugh! Do you know me? NO! Who are you to say what i catch and don't catch? Were you there? Notice i never named the systems i was fishing? You have your right to your own opinion as does everyone else, but in all honesty, do you think if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? I've been a vey lucky angler over the years! I do my homework and i know when and where to fish through out the year! I keep a journal on what was caught on my outings, as well as what was used! Marmot doubt all ya want i have no reason to lie about my outings maybe you have to have a day or 2 like mine to truly respect this fishery! Good luck and tight lines!
CK, I think you've misinterpreted what Marmot was trying to say in his last post. He's not doubting your success in the latest outings or your angling skill, but he's suggesting that such trips misrepresent the cutthroat fishery as the success rate is generally low (ie. out of 100 trips, less than 10 of those maybe days like you've experienced).
Thanks Rodney, yes, completely misinterpreted. I don't doubt that you did exceptionally well CK, and good going, its nice to see people catching... I'm saying if you did this well all the time, I would say you have been very lucky, as this is not the experience most people have going after these fish. As for retention being zero, no, I don't expect that DFO given their reactive nature lately would have the foresight to make such a move...nor do I see that as a solution. I'd far rather see a bait ban, just my opinion.
Aparently i took that the wrong way and i'm sorry! I see your point but myself and others would disagree! But none the less there a beauty fish to target and i hope my kids can have and share the same fishery for cutthroat that i do! And everyone else for that matter! It seems to me there will always be heated arguments over these fish and for good reason! A healthy debate is always good so i can hear what other members think and get input on what we can do to keep this fishery around for many years to come!
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BR, a lot of the the comments I made came from the 104 page report on cutty populations/etc...did you read any of that?
Heres the link again: http://www.shim.bc.ca/cutthroat/ct.pdf
As well, I have commercial fished, sport fished salmon and steelhead (for more than 20 years), volunteered at the seymour hatchery (on and off since 2002), I took genetics courses up to 3rd year, etc. A lot of my comments come from things I pick up from people involved in the industry like a family friend who (last time I checked) is on the board of the Greater Georgia Basin Steelhead Recovery Program as well as one of the directors of the Seymour hatchery.
Anyhow, I wanted to address a statement Coho Killer made:" if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? "
As Marmot points out, DFO and MOE are both very REACTIVE. Just look at the sockeye fishery or even better yet, east coast cod...these guys have proven time and again that they are reactive not proactive. The seymour hatchery fought a long time to have the steelhead run closed to retention ( JUST LAST YEAR IT WAS OPEN FOR 2 FISH A DAY)!!! Certainly the seymour can't have a healthier population of steelhead than the vedder, but for the longest time it was a 2 fish daily limit! Another prime example of the management team you place so much faith in, not having a clue.
sorry to tell you this, but everything in life is reactive whether you choose to accept it or not...nothing in life is perfect....but without basic guidelines (like regs) then how can you manage any resource without anarchy and lawlessness? you speak of your experience and background, then how about an insight of what you would do if you were in charge? what changes would you make? what viable approach would you take that would please everyone?
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There is a big difference between reactive and proactive thinking BR. It's the difference between getting stitches to close a massive head wound and thinking ahead and maybe deciding that playing catch with a glass baseball isn't that good of an idea. Use what experience you and those around you have and make educated decisions for the future. Don't look at the state of things at present and act on it..... big difference. I'm thinking you are probably in the camp that likes to think ahead.
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BR, a lot of the the comments I made came from the 104 page report on cutty populations/etc...did you read any of that?
Heres the link again: http://www.shim.bc.ca/cutthroat/ct.pdf
As well, I have commercial fished, sport fished salmon and steelhead (for more than 20 years), volunteered at the seymour hatchery (on and off since 2002), I took genetics courses up to 3rd year, etc. A lot of my comments come from things I pick up from people involved in the industry like a family friend who (last time I checked) is on the board of the Greater Georgia Basin Steelhead Recovery Program as well as one of the directors of the Seymour hatchery.
Anyhow, I wanted to address a statement Coho Killer made:" if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? "
As Marmot points out, DFO and MOE are both very REACTIVE. Just look at the sockeye fishery or even better yet, east coast cod...these guys have proven time and again that they are reactive not proactive. The seymour hatchery fought a long time to have the steelhead run closed to retention ( JUST LAST YEAR IT WAS OPEN FOR 2 FISH A DAY)!!! Certainly the seymour can't have a healthier population of steelhead than the vedder, but for the longest time it was a 2 fish daily limit! Another prime example of the management team you place so much faith in, not having a clue.
If you were involved with the seymour then you know that from what I understand was the cutthrroat program was discontinued because it did not contribute to a fishery and was no benefit. As for the two steelhead limit if I am not mistaken it has been said that hatchery inbreeding with such a small population of wild fish will be a detriment to said population of wild fish. I believe that the zero retention on the seymour is to allow a radio tagging study to be undertook to see the differenations and interactions of wild and hatchery populations and when the study period is complete retention will be reallowed. Don't get me wrong though I am all for hatchery fish when the option is no fish.
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http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/fishfacts/cutthroattrout.pdf
How are they doing?
The coastal cutthroat is a blue-listed species, which means the species is considered vulnerable in British Columbia. Several populations, particularly those on the East coast of Vancouver Island and the Lower Mainland, near Vancouver, are in serious decline. Many runs are already extinct. Their dependence on small streams for spawning and rearing makes them especially vulnerable, as small streams are easily altered or destroyed and their protection is often overlooked in planning residential, agricultural, and industrial developments or during forest harvesting
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There is a big difference between reactive and proactive thinking BR. It's the difference between getting stitches to close a massive head wound and thinking ahead and maybe deciding that playing catch with a glass baseball isn't that good of an idea. Use what experience you and those around you have and make educated decisions for the future. Don't look at the state of things at present and act on it..... big difference. I'm thinking you are probably in the camp that likes to think ahead.
i believe in proactive thinking, but i also have to be a realist. sometimes you have to step back and use what is on hand at present to improve the future. if you really want to get into the nitty gritty of the overall scheme look at newton's third law of motion.
even with 'actions' of good and positive intent there could be an inadvertent result of negative reactions.
my beef isn't about the right to follow regulations (because regulations as you know are out dated and non pertaining to the plight of cutthroat population and habitat), but to the criticism that some of the members here withstood because they were exercising those rights....i suppose you can argue that if the regulations are flawed then why encourage their support. my response.....its the law and if they're not worthy of the letter then use the proper avenue to change them.
nothing wrong with educating people, but there's a right way and a wrong way...especially when people are making the effort to follow the law.
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MARMOT it's comments like that that make me laugh! Do you know me? NO! Who are you to say what i catch and don't catch? Were you there? Notice i never named the systems i was fishing? You have your right to your own opinion as does everyone else, but in all honesty, do you think if the cutthroat weRE in that much trouble the retention would be ZERO? I've been a vey lucky angler over the years! I do my homework and i know when and where to fish through out the year! I keep a journal on what was caught on my outings, as well as what was used! Marmot doubt all ya want i have no reason to lie about my outings maybe you have to have a day or 2 like mine to truly respect this fishery! Good luck and tight lines!
CK, I think you've misinterpreted what Marmot was trying to say in his last post. He's not doubting your success in the latest outings or your angling skill, but he's suggesting that such trips misrepresent the cutthroat fishery as the success rate is generally low (ie. out of 100 trips, less than 10 of those maybe days like you've experienced).
Thanks Rodney, yes, completely misinterpreted. I don't doubt that you did exceptionally well CK, and good going, its nice to see people catching... I'm saying if you did this well all the time, I would say you have been very lucky, as this is not the experience most people have going after these fish. As for retention being zero, no, I don't expect that DFO given their reactive nature lately would have the foresight to make such a move...nor do I see that as a solution. I'd far rather see a bait ban, just my opinion.
MOE/The Province is responsible for Cutthroat. NOT DFO.
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Thanks for correcting that OBD...
makes even more sense.
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Not so. The Sportfishing Advisory Committee is responsible for asking Fisheries and Oceans Canada as well as Ministry of Environment at times to make changes in regulations that would benefit both the fish and the angling community. Closure of the chinook salmon on the Chilliwack River from January 1st to June 30th is a good example
Just curious when was this brought into effect Rodney
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about three seasons ago.
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With all due respect Fossil, and I mean no offence, but when I saw those fish on the bank my heart dropped. Such a shame they're not still swimming around in there. I caught a few there just like that a while back and was really glad to have found them and connected with them. To see them on the beach instead of in the water just seems so wrong to me.
Like I said, no offence, you were perfectly within your right, just providing another perspective.
They must've been a joy to catch!
rib
This post was moved here by Rodney from the original topic. I have not taken the time to read through this thread, and thus this response may seem out of context to the current discussion on cutthrout. Regardless, the post remains, and is indicative of my response to the picture of three dead trout posted by Fossil in the original topic.
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Sorry, guys, took such bad picture. should've cleaned them first or just taken landing pictures. i usually take good photos, but, after 8h fishing and half time was in heavy snow, you know, frozen fingers also frozen mind...forgive me.
thanks rib, i'm also thinking about play C&R for cutties like i did to salmon.