Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nicole on January 17, 2008, 01:13:03 PM
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the problem with a lot of the lower river is just that, people dont circulate and move through runs, they have planted roots and created fossils of their wading boots into the rocks? sometimes that is a good strategy but i beleive that hunting them from run to run is the ultimate way to steelhead as it keeps you on your game.
What would you think of rotational angling only regs from Jan 1st - April 30th from the Vedder bridge down to the highway?
That would be sweet, and it would allow for more pressure to filter through, and keep the frustration levels down.
It's not salmon fishing, and most people fish like they're targetting salmon.
Cheers,
Nicole
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What about Spot closures at the meatholes on the river... they used to do it on the island... close off the really popular runs top of the riffle to the tailout...
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a few comments, tnt i dont believe there are a lot of fish around at all right now, this could change as its still early but if you left the lower river you would know mid upper and upper are not holding a lot of fish and thats a definite fact as evidenced by the campers at the slab who have fished that spot/area for many years, theyre simply not getting there (picked off in lower) or just not enough of them in system yet.
Isn't it kind of ironic that on one hand you have been pressuring others to avoid hotspotting on internet forums, yet you just pointed out that only the Lower Vedder River is productive to everyone on the internet? :o Or is it reverse psychology... Maybe there are more fish in the mid and upper rivers, so Cammer has posted that to draw people away from the fish he intends to catch soon? ;) Would the lower river be much more busier this weekend after Cammer has pointed out that it is more productive on the internet forum? ;) It's 3am in Europe and I am sleepless and bored. ;D
As for different regulations for lower meatholes, i just dont think that any agency would want to try to enforce anything like that, thats up to us as proper etiquette proprietors to properly show the way
Absolutely, etiquettes is not enforceable therefore they cannot be made into regulations. Rotational fishery may suit perfectly for many of us, but one needs to consider that our freshwater fisheries are not utilized by age and skill-specific groups. Senior anglers cannot participate in rotational fisheries due to mobility. Once you start regulating how much time people should fish a section of the river and how fast their walking pace should be, the line is no longer drawn.
Rodney, a positive experience means a lot of different things to different people. Most experienced fisherman i know that have fished at least 10 to 15 yrs locally, would not consider the lower river NOW to be anything near a positve experience. They all fish bridge up now do to many factors. 3 years ago, the Lickman area started to get really really crowded and i believe since then its been a "no go" as fence posters are now everywhere from Peach to KWB, before that i found it quite fishable and etiquette friendly area to fish
One has to remember that time has changed, the fishery has evolved (not necessarily better, but not necessarily worse either). Of course the fishing experience is better a couple of decades ago. More fish are targeted by less anglers in the same amount of fishing area. The Metro Vancouver population has grown from just over 1 million to 2.1 million since the early 80s. This staggering growth mixed with the ongoing marketing strategy by the Freshwater Fisheries Society to boost license sale would of course result in the sharp growth of the Chilliwack fishery. The Chilliwack River system is the most productive fishery that is the closest to Vancouver. It is rather naive to expect the Vedder scene to remain the same as a couple decades ago. There are plenty of anglers out there who have managed to adapt to this evolution and continue doing well. If solitude is such an important component in one's fishing experience, do what I do, venture to systems where harvest is not allowed. That being said, my Vedder experience, particularly at the section you've mentioned has been more good than bad. If pursuing enjoyment in fishing becomes unenjoyable, perhaps stopping fishing is the best alternative.
The primary focus should be on better communication between anglers so everyone is on the same page in regards to regulations and etiquettes. Mutual respect needs to be there, otherwise everyone goes home as losers. Contrary to what some may want to believe, internet forums can in fact be the solution instead of the problem. By assisting and informing newcomers in a respectful manner, positive changes will be seen on the waters in the long run.
The secondary focus should be on developing more similar fisheries that would spread out the angling pressure, which is not going away because the population of Metro Vancouver will continue growing.
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Cammer I have been fishing the mid river with really decent results... seeing Chris on the lower produce my 12th fish to the beach in seven trips plus at least a half dozen lost or so...but typically I have not been fishing the lower... the upper has always produced well towards the end of January... my brother has five fish in the last 6 days from up top...he likes the upper better than I do... I have also noticed this year that the fish are biting extremely aggresively... I am still fishing 12 LB leader and a 1/0 with a 40g PIKER...
To each there own... we just have to avoid the meatholes, the river will never be the way it used to be, and we just have to accept that... most people will have no ettiquette and we just have to be OK with that!...learn to Adapt....we all have to... remember 90 percent of the fish are caught by 10 percent of the fisherman...
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Today was busier then any weekend so far, I thought I could sneak off for a change on a weekday and try a few spots with my spey that I don't normally go to...It was a gauntlet up there...stopped aways down lower and just looked...even holes that you might see one or two guys at were shoulder to shoulder today...I didn't see many younger guys, mostly old timers and they weren't moving...I fished a spey friendly spot with some movement through it and one planted firmly at the top...That was the only spot I saw anyone move through....Pretty much a bad joke, lost one fish too, made it worse..
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Let be honest, the bar fishing minded type guys, nothing wrong with bar fisherman, but we are talking steelhead manners here folks. Its over I say, when you have the Lower Lickman Crowd with their centre-pins, sage rods and elbo to elbo, now tell me is that a good day on the river? It hurts to see the older fellows who used to fish this river for the last forty years get caught up in this fiasco. Sorry to say but the Vedder River System has seen its better days and there are not many left. Oh yeah and make sure you take out or pick up your GARBAGE!!!
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The vedder isn't the only system that has seen changes over the years,many of the systems to one extent or another have seen similar changes,except maybe some of the more isolated systems,and not to the extent that the vedder has,so what do we do,do we try and come up with a solution to take us back in time and fix some of the more negative aspects of our fishery{that in my opinion will be a very difficult task} or do we just hang up our gear and take up another pastime,or possibly we could just try and adapt to what is going on and enjoy what we have instead of worrying about what we used to have and how it used to be on the river,i know its hard to forget the good ole days,but they are gone forever,or we could choose to spend our time on websites like this and just bitch about it,for me i enjoy the sport and the outdoors so i choose to try and adapt instead of worrying about all the negative changes that we deal with today,this doesn't mean i don't yearn for the way it was 20 or more years ago because i do,i bet all those oltimers with sages and center pins fishing elbow to elbow would love to see it the way it used to be,but it cant be so instead of hanging up the old rod n reel they begrudgingly choose to adapt and fish on.
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I actually am loving the fencepost fishers this year. I think it's great to have all different types of methods to fishing the river. If we all ratated through runs surely there would still be bottle necking as I know we all have our own speed. With some guys fence posting it allows us others to simply go around them ;D So far everytime I've encountered guys standing in the middle of a run and not moving, when asked, said they had no intentions of fishing the tail-out and I was welcome to go below, go figure.
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or do we just hang up our gear and take up another pastime,
Yes, I thnk that would be a great idea for everyone.....might I suggest needle point, perhaps a rousing game of Scrabble or a 12 weekend tournament of it, gardening might be to your liking, stamp or coin collecting can be a very satisfying past time, that strong casting arm transfers nicely into bowling, darts is a challenging avtivitiy....I could go on.
My mom said I was always a selfish child......I blame it on my dad...he, too, hated crowded rivers.
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Nicole, and others, we don't need any more rules!
If you don't think someone is doing a good job by standing in one spot and fishing all day, talk to him, make an effort and educate the person.
That will work.
Jamming more rules down people's throats has the opposite effect.
Don't you think!?
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;D OK as I see it some young fisher will ask me to move so they can fish thru because of the "exaulted rotation rule" . Well well I am 70 years old and have fished the Vedder since the sixties . Rotate , hell I bareily made just to the rivers edge and some youngster wants to move (rotate) . Most just go around me and lots often stop for a chat . The only thing that has changed from fishing the good old days is the "Elitest Attitude " of many to-days fishers . The use of various tackle and the way one fishes is rated with a snob rating . There are more important things in life to worry about but I appreciate the excuberance of youth that are really involved and want to protect the quality of the fishery . To those I say do it but don`t forget this unique fishery belongs to all . It is not just about the catching of a steelhead which to many is bragging rights versus an unique experience .
To get back on thread this Rotation thing is your choise and I do consider it a good thing but it is not a "Rule" . I believe the rotation thing originates from the private rivers of Scotland that catered to those who could afford it and river ethics were written in stone . How one would impose such strict rotational control on the Vedder is beyond me but pleasent public discourse may be a comprimise .
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Rotational angling as a general rule among anglers exists on a number of rivers in BC, and this generally revolves around steelhead fisheries... The Bulkley, Dean, Thompson are rivers that come to mind, and it really does work. You can show up on the river bank at any time of day and roll through a run.
Greybark, this is not the sixties anymore, the number of anglers on the vedder has exploded as I am sure you have noticed. There has to be a way to deal with the problem, I am suggesting the lower half only, not the whole river.
I really think this would work!
That elitist comment is getting very tired, both gear fishers and fly anglers would benefit from this. I've seen many statues out there with a flyrod too... Lets move on from that whole arguement, please?
Any other thoughts?
Nicole
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Fish and Wildlife Branch
Angling Ethics
Rotational Angling
Courtesy and Common Sense – Enjoying the Experience and sharing the Opportunity.
As angling pressures increase because of population growth, expanding recreational time and improved access to our rivers and streams, the need for courtesy and an angling code of conduct has become more evident.
"Rotation angling" is a system designed to encourage everyone on a stretch of river to fish sequentially through it, whether wading or from a boat. It was designed to allow each angler an equal opportunity to spend some time in the prime pools and riffles. Simply stated, it means starting at the head of a pool or run and following the immediate downstream angler at a courteous distance, with everyone progressing at a reasonable pace.
While rotation angling is not applicable to all waters and conditions, it has become an accepted practice on many of our Classified Waters.
The basic rules are:
-Avoid entering the water downstream of another angler who is already fishing, unless invited to do so;
-Leave adequate room between the downstream angler and yourself but do not remain stationary unless no one is following you;
-After catching a fish, step out of the line and return to the head of the pool, or start of the line;
-If you are not sure about the local etiquette, avoid any problems by first inquiring about the procedures from the anglers already on the water.
Rotation angling is a system, which can work well regardless of gear type, so long as each angler respects the others' methods.
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Actually I find a rotating type of angling more productive way to fish. I find in a lot of cases I get most of my fish on the first few casts into a different part of a run or when I first arrive at a new spot. Out of the 6 fish I have had on this season this was the case each time.
The only time I donot rotate or move around is during the steelhead season is when I am waiting around or am a old cedar fence post in a meat hole where there is hardly any momement anyway as I try and get a donated fish from someone for the brood stock program.
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I don't think Greybark's "elitist" remark (good contribution to the forum by the way, not just because I agree ;) but also nice to have opinions from older anglers mixed with the young ones) is directed at flyfishermen. He's referring to a particular attitude that is developing among younger steelhead anglers from the competitiveness. Competition can be healthy, as long as respect is given between everyone.
From my observations of the growth of quite a few young anglers on the discussion forum in the last several years, I can relate to what Greybark was implying. Some have become experienced and familiar with the Chilliwack River fishery after taking in advices from others, but they seem to have forgotten the grassroot of fishing. New fishers are frowned upon. Someone new and not familiar with the Vedder, stands at one spot to fish, is frowned upon. Someone catches his very first steelhead and is extremely excited, makes a mistake by holding the fish wrongly so he could capture the joy that we have all experienced, gets bashed upon as if we want to humiliate the person instead of helping him to understand. Instead of helping those who we once were, we decide to exclude them because the river is already too busy, hoping that eventually they would just go away. Some go as far as judging a person without know him or her by rating the clothings, rod and reel, terminal tackle, as Greybark has pointed out. I don't actually call this "elitism" anymore, the word is used so often that it kind of has lost its meaning. This is poor attitude, and it's unfortunately shooting in our own foot.
Rotational fishery would certainly be a welcoming practice, which I would love to see too so I can have a chance to fish where I normally can't fish. However, the unfortunate reality is that the Vedder River fishery has become an entry-level fishery due to the relatively higher amount of fish, opportunity to harvest and short distance from a densely populated area. Remote rivers are normally accessed by more skilled and experienced anglers who already have the background knowledge on such etiquettes, therefore it shouldn't be a surprise to see it being practiced. As long as the Vedder River is opened to anglers of all skill levels and age groups, it would be hard to request everyone to engage in it, nevermind regulating and enforcing it. For anglers such as Greybark, they should be able to stand at their spot and fish for a long period of time without being frowned upon or harrassed. For anglers who seem to be new to the fishery, a friendly chat followed by some recommendation on what they should do to fish successfully would benefit everyone.
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;) Hey Nicole , I was not refferring to flyfishers and apologies if I inferred so , I also am well aware of the defination of rotational angling .Thank you Rodney for expanding what I wanted to post in a most elegant way .
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Sorry for misinterpreting you greybark, no offense taken :)
I will happily walk around you and I'll also say hi out there btw ;)
Cheers,
Nicole
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My 2 pennies worth, I fished Lickman today and there were people everywhere and among them were quite a few elderly retired men and one of them was John. Hes 82 years old he said and when he fishes he sits in his chair. A nicer fisherman you would never meet but rotational fishing would'nt work for him and probably not for many other elderly gentlemen so I am all for what Greybark said. Myself, I sometimes will fence post and sometimes I'm on the move. My choice. Being mouthy and confrontational is not a good solution. People are nice most of the time when dealt respect but push the other way and see what happens. Making rotational fishing a regulation, Uh, I don't think so. How would you ever enforce it and like taxes there really are enough rules and regs. John, if you read this thanks for telling me about that
secret spot. I love it.Thanks all.
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From my observations of the growth of quite a few young anglers on the discussion forum in the last several years, I can relate to what Greybark was implying. Some have become experienced and familiar with the Chilliwack River fishery after taking in advices from others, but they seem to have forgotten the grassroot of fishing. New fishers are frowned upon. Someone new and not familiar with the Vedder, stands at one spot to fish, is frowned upon. Someone catches his very first steelhead and is extremely excited, makes a mistake by holding the fish wrongly so he could capture the joy that we have all experienced, gets bashed upon as if we want to humiliate the person instead of helping him to understand. Instead of helping those who we once were, we decide to exclude them because the river is already too busy, hoping that eventually they would just go away. Some go as far as judging a person without know him or her by rating the clothings, rod and reel, terminal tackle, as Greybark has pointed out. I don't actually call this "elitism" anymore, the word is used so often that it kind of has lost its meaning. This is poor attitude, and it's unfortunately shooting in our own foot.
You are so right. When reading this I was thinking of an article I just read called "the evolution of the angler" . It is in the latest edition of Sport fishing BC. It was a really good read.
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Rotational angling as it's done in Europe where people line up at the top of the run and work there way through 1 at the time taking one cast then moving before casting again seems to work fine although it's done on rivers where you are paying to fish and everyone is in agreement before they start. Unfortunately a lot of people in the Thomson seem to think rotational angling means you can go stand at the top of a run take thirty or forty casts before moving and yell at anyone that fishes within 400 meters downstream of them that they are taking away their water. In the Vedder there are all kinds of fishermen, old, young, stationary, moving, whatever we just have to adjust our ethics so as not to interfere with those others fishing if your moving though a run and somebody is fishing stationary just fish up to him, then move around and fish below or above them depending on which way you are moving, I don't want to force anyone to move because I am, I would like to force people to quit flossing but that has no place on this thread. Even when the Vedder is crowded there is still lots of water to fish just take your time and be courteous, as for the people picket fencing a hole at least it keeps them away from where I am. You have to have faith in the gear and bait you're using and realize that just because other people have fished the water doesn't mean that you are not going to catch one.
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As anyone who has fished the vedder for years knows.... there are more and more anglers every year. Through word of mouth and forums such as this one, they gravitate to where the fish are being caught. If they choose to stand in one run for the time they are out, so be it. I think most would agree.... the more water you cover, the better your chances of hooking fish. To force anglers to more just doesn't seem right to me. If we wanted to take it that far why don't we just divide the licences up into time slots, maybe you only get to fish for a month but there's less than half the anglers out.
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wow, its been a while since i've posted....been more of a lurker than a participant, but i just don't get it. i've also been fishing the vedder/chilliwack system for a long time and even to this day, i manage to find new water to try out. who cares if someone decides to fencepost? there's over 40kms of fishable changing water that can be reached (by those who truly have the desire to explore).
if someone happens to catch up to me while fishing a run, they're more than welcome to fish through (i'll simply step back for a quick break and allow them to work their way down).....usually not a problem. seems some of the suggestions being recommended is being fuelled by self entitlement to certain locations....however, i do agree people need to learn river etiquette, at the time they're learning how to fish...with that, the more seasoned veterans need to learn how to recognize beginners and should make the effort to try to help them out.
i'm also familiar with rotational fishing. great for smaller systems with limited anglers....but the vedder?....with dozens of anglers (doesn't matter which hole)...with different skill levels.... using different terminal tackle?....good luck.
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Rotational angling is definitely a lost art on most river systems in the Lower Mainland, due mainly in part to the increased numbers of fisherman new to the sport with little or no understanding of the heritage behind angling etiquette. On some of the more pressured systems such as the Vedder, old time etiquette may be lost forever simply because times have changed and the flux of new sportsmen has increased exponentially. Perhaps fenceposting is an evolutionary response to overcrowding, much like the decrease of the resource is a response to climate change. Whatever the case may be, true enjoyment of the sport is essential to its growth and popularity and at least a few rules should be observed fervently by anglers new and old in order to maintain a longstanding fishery. If you're like me, you prefer to avoid the crowded banks, but in a growing city with accessible waters seemingly in short supply, we have to try and preserve the respect for one another, and more importantly, that of our cherished past-time.
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The very idea of making it illegal for some old guy (or young guy as the case may be) to find a place to fish and stand there and fish stationary just rubs me the wrong way, also I find fishing with gear I fish through a run probably five times faster than a lot of spey fishermen with their heavy tippets and their long slow sweeps, and they also take up way more room on the runs than gear fishermen as you can probably fish about twenty bait rods in the same amount of room that six spey fishermen. Spey rods like bouncing betties are the new kids on the block when it comes to fishing BC river systems and I for one do not want to see rule changes to accommodate these new fisheries and put the traditional methods at a disadvantage. The interpretation of the rotational fishery rules is so up to the individual that I can see it causing nothing but grief for everyone involved, say for instance you were the first one in at Lickman road for example and for all intents and purposes chose the head of the run to be the top of that gut that everyone flosses in. Now you being a slow methodical fisherman start to work your way downsteam while 20 other fishermen show up waiting patiently behind you to follow you through, now someone 300 hundreds yards downstream in that bait fishing water you can see down there actually has the audacity to start fishing, what do you do about it? I mean he is taking away your water under rotational fishing etiquette he has the nerve to fish downstream from you when you started fishing the run first it doesn't matter that at the speed you're travelling you won't be that far downstream for another two hours that or that you already have forty people lined up the bank behind you waiting to fish through at you're pace he is technically fishing your water and if you use the same ethics as a lot of the spey fisherman on the Thomson that would give you the right to yell at him, insult him and generally complain to all your buddies in the coffee shop after about how you were beaked out of your spot by some bait fisherman chuckin guts. Keep the rotational fishing someplace else and just use a little common sense and courtesy towards your fellow fisherman for everyones sake, I've got nothing against the way you fish I just don't want it forced on me.
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Good points Nosey, especially the part regarding the difficulties both anglers and conservation officers would face when it comes to practicing rotational fishery as a rule, because it isn't black and white. I think the general rule that we can all agree on is that, with some consideration for others around you, everyone would have a good fishing outing, with or without a fish. The only point in your post that I don't exactly agree is the speyfishing part. For some reason there is a assumption by most gear anglers that speyfishermen are flossing fish with their sink tips. Speyfishing, when done correctly, can avoid foul hooking fish most of the time. It has been practiced in Europe for decades and most of the time the fishing depth is close to the surface where Atlantic salmon are induced to come up and attack the skated fly. Any style of fishing can snag a salmon if that is the intention of the fisherman. Speyfishermen also indeed require more room on both sides when casting, so gear anglers should respect that space and provide the room needed.
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I fish the last saturaday. It was heavy snow, sometimes rain. It was cold. I was fishing above a fellow. He was an old gentleman and I finished fishing the water above him before he did his. In the mean time, I actually stopped fishing and trying to warm up my hands. But I still finished before he did. I walked up to him and asked if I can fish a distance below him. Had a nice chat and off I went. He was happy fishing his area and so was I.
Instead of applying more rules, why not focus our energy to better educate others WHILE we are on the float.
You asked nicely if you can fish below some guy, and hopefully next time, he will do the same cause you are setting an example to him. Show an example for picking up trash, lose lines, leads, the art of C&R, etc...
So what people stand in one place... I do both. Some day more walking than fishing, other day, more fishing than walking... You can't tell me to hurry up and fan cast. I like to enjoy my time out in the river rather I catch or not. I don't want 50 people behind me staring at me with angry eyes hoping I should hurry up and finish my cast... Come on now... The enjoyment of fishing is not just fishing, it is who you are fishing with, the natural, the time in the water, the sound of the eagles, and the ice cold water...
I also see how rotating fishing method can benefit as well. If you choose to practice that and see a guy standing there, ask and go around him.
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I acutally witnessed very good etiquitte over the weekend...
Two gentlemen from this forum came over and said hi, and asked if they could step in above me... I happened to be flyfishing at the time...
I was very shocked! No one has ever done that before...
And for the record you don't need to ask to step in above a person flyfishing, only ask to step in below them.
Observe first if they are stepping through the run. If they are not moving at all, ask if you can fish below.
But by all means say hi regardless of what you're doing :)
Nice meeting you two! You guys looked pretty happy to be out there, and that put a smile on my face...
Cheers,
Nicole
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;Dwow nice to see that there is still some polite fishermen out there. ;D
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People from this site actually practice good fishing etiquettes in real life?? ;D
I think Charles and Nicole's examples just show that positive threads such as this one spread the words and influence the fishery quite quickly. If you make a dozen anglers' experience on the water pleasant, then that dozen of anglers will possibly do the same for 12 more dozens. That's over 150 people who use the river. Overtime, such little consideration of others can really change the entire fishery positively.
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This is getting off topic but how about limited licenses(lottery based) for nonresident(Sardis/Chilliwack area) anglers or even a separate license like the Thompson.
CK this is like saying you have to have special license to cross Port Mann Bridge for anyone that's living outside of lowermainland. We all paid for the upkeep and establishment of the dykes, hatchery... etc. No localized licenses based on local residence should ever be implemented.
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I am in total agreement with Rodney on the positive benefits of education in fishing.Us older guys need to share ways of cooperation not confrontation.AS for asking the government to put in place regulations to control polite behaviour. I do not see this as good.Over the last ten years or so I too have seen the vedder explode with other fishers.Something else I have noticed is a gradual moving away from confrontations over turf and more of a different strokes for different folkes culture taking hold.I see this as a positive and credit some of the more rational among us for the move in this direction.Let's keep it going!
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People from this site actually practice good fishing etiquettes in real life?? ;D
I think Charles and Nicole's examples just show that positive threads such as this one spread the words and influence the fishery quite quickly. If you make a dozen anglers' experience on the water pleasant, then that dozen of anglers will possibly do the same for 12 more dozens. That's over 150 people who use the river. Overtime, such little consideration of others can really change the entire fishery positively.
i think this is bang on i am noticing more polite behavior happening on our local flow and to me this is very encouraging to see more people a little more laid back and enjoying the day out and adapting to the current style of fishing that has become the norm ,i think most of the complaining that goes on is just a result of the shear numbers of fisherman on the river making it tough to fish it the way many would like to, with high competition for some of the more productive areas just resulting in sour grapes for some.