Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigguy on August 18, 2006, 12:39:14 AM
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Heard that socs will be closed after the weekend! Mad rush will be on if this is true! Prob twice as many people at Peg and Scale this weekend!
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I hope they do
leave the sport fishers to a nice peaceful day of fishing ;D
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bigguy, is there a point to this beside generating a hype that would only create more pressure and tension on a fishery that does not really need more publicity as it is not the best representation of the sportfishing community?
I take it that you heard this while fishing on the bar? No, there are no upcoming scheduled closures, so there is still time for all to get more fish.
More fish, how many more does one need?
As a moderator, I like to keep my position neutral, but occasionally I like to make some commentaries when I recognize a movement that completely goes against my belief. This is one of those occasions. Originally I wasn't going to bother but bigguy's post struck a nerve, which inspired this post. I have nothing against bigguy by the way, please read on.
Since the beginning of this year's non-tidal Fraser River sockeye opening, reports of good catches began to roll in. That's good, the sportfishing sector has an allocated amount for harvest. It's nice to see people being able to bring some fish home to eat. After all, part of the joy in fishing is always having the ability to bring home some catches, show off in front of the family members, boost the ego (not necessarily a bad thing), and enjoy the tasty treat.
I've received emails from some, who obviously dislike the fact that anglers are catching and harvesting sockeye salmon by a method that isn't precisely defined as sportfishing. The concern is that there are too many reports on sockeye catches, and these should be minimized. Although I personally have no interests in reading these reports of sockeye catches, I have no intention to deny these reports on the forum. There is an opening, people are catching fish legally, we like to provide all users as much priveleges in this discussion forum as possible, so go for it.
Although the reports of catches don't offend me, the attitude that is being brewed from this fishery is alarming. It always has, but it is just rubbed in my face more in these discussions now. I thought, surely those who have enough common sense would realize something is not right here.
I sense that many are glorifying this fishery. Yes, the fish aren't biting, it is purely a harvest, but can't people do it with moderation? In some posts, novices are being taught how to improve the catches without being explained the concept behind this fishery. We even feel the need to compare the amount of seasonal catches as if it is a race or competition. I feel a sense of urgency from some, fearing that the river may close any minute from now and not being able to take more fish home. I look at the numbers of fish kept individually with disbelief. It could almost be perceived that if one does not get his or her two dozen sockeye salmon and fulfilling his or her annual quota of chinook salmon, satisfaction would not be achieved. We have discussions of people getting excited about larger sockeye salmon moving through and the need to catch them. Whatever happened to the need of leaving larger spawners to sustain a better future run?
To me, the problem isn't so much on how these fish are caught. I've lived in countries where catching methods would break every ethics in BC, so as long as this is regulated as a legal method, I have no objections. That being said, I find no satisfaction from casting, drifting and retrieving with hope of something may accidentally be hooked until I obtain my two fish. I need flexibility. I want to be challenged and feel that frustration when the bait, lure or fly does not work. Those are my needs, which maybe different to how others perceive what fishing is all about. It's fine by me, I have no problem with it.
Below are the problems that I fear.
Unrealistic expectation
The Fraser River sockeye fishery is often the focus of local media, therefore it most likely receives more newcomers than any other fisheries. Without guidance, newcomers purchase a rod/reel combo, some hooks, bouncing betties and head to the well known bars on the Fraser River. Most of them would end up catching some fish, or seeing others having success repeatedly. Since this is the first kind of fishing they've ever experienced, it creates an unrealistic expectation. In reality, most other fisheries do not yield large amount of catches unless you know what to do. In reality, most other fisheries do not involve people standing next to each other while trying to intercept any fish that move through a river by any mean.
Devaluing a catch
In human nature, things that come easily and frequently are not as appreciated as items that come in special occasions. In our society, surplus items are cheap, while rare items are expensive. At $5/lb, commercially bought sockeye salmon are treated like gold, while sockeye salmon caught during the recreational opening are often priced by the amount of money spend on gas and fishing tackles. Recreationally caught sockeye salmon are usually cheaper. I'm not implying that all anglers who participate in this fishery do not appreciate their catches, but somehow I get such a feeling when reading the numbers of catches to date by various individuals. It almost seems that we are back to square one, "There are so many sockeye salmon in the river, taking two more is not going to hurt them." This brings up the next point.
Wild runs they are
The sockeye salmon that you are harvesting, are not hatchery raised. They are all products of streams, where some will hopefully end up and create the next generation. The sockeye fishery is macro-managed by grouping all harvestable fish as summer runs. These fish, that you are taking, come from many tributaries of the Fraser River. Some runs are big, some runs are tiny. By specifically taking the larger fish out, you maybe skewing the population dynamics. The reality is, some tiny runs will suffer more than others, eventually will extinct. Of course the First Nations and commercial sector have a larger impact due to the number of fish harvested by them, but what if we reduce some of our catches could give some of these runs a boost? The point is, take the amount you can eat without stuffing yourself, there isn't a need to tally up as many daily quotas as possible until it closes.
The mood in this fishing community is quite a contrast to what was happening one year ago, when many are angry at DFO for having a closure throughout the entire August. Today we see happy anglers all around because there are sockeyes to harvest, I find it a sad affair. I find it baffling and a bit pathetic that the sportfishing sector complains whenever they are not granted but all seem to be forgotten if given. I am disappointed that we focus so much negative attention on the First Nations fisheries (not so much a FN problem, but the need for a better management) when we are shut out, but we don't bring up the problems at all when there are fish to catch. If people wish to see positive impacts on the resource that we utilize, the first step maybe to abandon this parent-child relationship with DFO and work with them closely instead. Join an affiliation that has a representation at your local SFAC.
There isn't an expectation from me by making this post. These are simply observations with no clear solutions in sight. If I want solutions I wouldn't be using this forum to achieve it (since this forum takes up 80% of the website traffic, which is only used by 10% of the total visitors). If I have enough energy and time, I would be pushing for regulation changes to stop such degeneration (annual quota, maybe even no future sockeye openings). It will happen one day.
These are general statements and are not meant to pinpoint on any individual. I hope those who read this may find it as a good reminder of what sportfishing is really about. People are free to continue celebrating the ongoing Fraser River sockeye opening, but don't act surprised or rant about the methods that others are using on the Vedder River in a few weeks from now.
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Great post Rod. I dont think you should pay any mind to the comments made by DK....I've never seen any evidence of that crap.
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Great post Rod. I dont think you should pay any mind to the comments made by DK....I've never seen any evidence of that crap.
Just do a search on "rod". I've personally seen many posts slagging this site and nothing is done. I just do not think it's fair. If you've been there you know this is the case.
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Just do a search on "rod".
What are we looking for? This is a serious question as I'd be interested to read on the "Other Site" A search on this forum for "rod" returns 57 pages of posts? I know you're not talking google search, cause that's over 157 Million.
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I've never seen any evidence of that crap.
Marmot, you've never seen it because crap gets deleted really fast over here. ;D ;D ;D
Dennis, I feel that there isn't a need to slag other websites, even though moderators on other forums sometimes choose to turn a blind eye on the type of posts that you talked about. That's ok, this isn't so much a popularity contest, I prefer to operate this discussion forum as a tool used to distribute information and socialize. I try to cut down the amount of insulting as much as possible. I try to delete attacks on other websites immediately, not because they are my friends or because I feel them, but it is just the right thing to do IMO.
If you have other questions you are welcome to email me.
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I digress a bit but Rodney does an excellent job moderating this forum and keeping it civil. I agree with DK that there are a few disgruntled members who like to belittle this site.
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I hope they do
leave the sport fishers to a nice peaceful day of fishing ;D
AHAHAHAHAHA!
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well, from "the other site" im much more used to seeing stuff like this ....
"Well thought out response... as usual Rodney. Thank you." (from Ian Forbes today)
Thats the general impression i get, anyways.
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Is "that" the other site they are talking about Marmot? Because from what I recall, that site enjoyed a very close relationship of mutual respect with this one.
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Well thought out post Rodney,I totally agree with you and i am sad to see the sockeye methods being used on other systems in the lower mainland ,this is something that has started in the last several years and i believe it is because of the reasons you have stated in your post.
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Rod, I'll start by saying that in the brief time I've been on this board (Very brief) I have come to respect you as an authority on sports fishing, and you obviously do care about what you're passionate about. This isn't a personal attack per say, but rather a situation where I feel you are pushing your personal OPINION onto others...let me try and explain.......
I know I've only taken 2 paragraphs from a lengthy post, but I feel the overall tone of the post is what I refer too...these 2 paragraphs are where my response comes from.
I sense that many are glorifying this fishery. Yes, the fish aren't biting, it is purely a harvest, but can't people do it with moderation? In some posts, novices are being taught how to improve the catches without being explained the concept behind this fishery. We even feel the need to compare the amount of seasonal catches as if it is a race or competition. I feel a sense of urgency from some, fearing that the river may close any minute from now and not being able to take more fish home. I look at the numbers of fish kept individually with disbelief. It could almost be perceived that if one does not get his or her two dozen sockeye salmon and fulfilling his or her annual quota of chinook salmon, satisfaction would not be achieved. We have discussions of people getting excited about larger sockeye salmon moving through and the need to catch them. Whatever happened to the need of leaving larger spawners to sustain a better future run?
To me, the problem isn't so much on how these fish are caught. I've lived in countries where catching methods would break every ethics in BC, so as long as this is regulated as a legal method, I have no objections. That being said, I find no satisfaction from casting, drifting and retrieving with hope of something may accidentally be hooked until I obtain my two fish. I need flexibility. I want to be challenged and feel that frustration when the bait, lure or fly does not work. Those are my needs, which maybe different to how others perceive what fishing is all about. It's fine by me, I have no problem with it.
Rod, are you not by nature of your post casting judgment on those of us that disagree? You say yourself you have no problem with the way these fish are being caught. "So long as it's a legal method, I have no objections". You then go on and express your personal views regarding your personal satisfaction with the methods used. My satisfaction come in different form, and this is fine as you even state,you say that it's fine by you and you have no problem with other thinking differently. HOWEVER, the entire nature of this post is casting judgment on those that want to celebrate their catch/harvest of sockeye.
To many people, this is a race. Sure there are no closure notices on the DFO site today, but what about tomorrow, the next day? The opening may be closed at any time as demonstrated in previous years.
This harvest is for 1 month of the year (if we're lucky), which to those of us that LOVE sockeye, it is an exciting month. When people get excited about seeing lots of fish, of course they are going to want to celebrate? Is that so wrong? You get excited and passionate about catching bullfish on the pier with kids. Is that wrong if I disagree with it? (I don't, and I love that you're teaching kids, but I personally don't get passionate about it...this is my point)
Many people (Myself included) enjoy fish all year, for this reason I love to get as many as I can while it's open. I know many people that fill there freezers and enjoy the fish all year. The fish are not wasted, but rather enjoyed.
Now there are allot of goons out there that are just sheer idiots, but for the majority of us, we just like having fun with the sox and enjoying the moment while we're able...it's 1 month of the year, and it's half over already. Let us have fun for the month, then it goes away for another year.
Just one mans humble opinion.
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weizen, some good points. Casting my own personal belief on others is something I try to avoid, that's why the previous post took over two hours to complete. Just to give you some background information, because of my position on the Sportfishing Advisory Committee and ownership of this website, I work pretty closely in the behind-the-scene consultation with DFO and the Ministry of Environment. The discussion of sockeye opening begins around April each year and takes place at a higher frequency as we get closer to the arrival of the summer runs. The sportfishing advisory committee is a group that seeks for as much recreational fishing opportunities as possible, but often I would voice my disapproval of some proposed opportunities, which usually makes me very unpopular among the group. ;) If there is an upcoming closure, readers will get a pretty advanced notice when I or others in the loop receive confirmations. One of the biggest problem with this particular fishery that I have brought up at meetings is the uncertainty of opening times each year, which makes it difficult for anglers to plan their trips and creates a gold-rush effect.
Several things drove me to compose the previous post late last night. While working behind the scene, I often see how much DFO is pressured by the sportfishing sector for an opening. We would use any fact that would benefit us and hopefully lead to an opening. At the same time, the angling public would disapprove every single decisions and the reasonings behind them made by DFO, until an opening is given. During the opening, it seems like all fishing-related issues are completely ignored. The Thompson River train derailments have very little amount of attention, because it took place right before the sockeye opening. The steadily rising temperature on the Fraser River, which translates into only between 20 to 30% of sockeyes that reach the tributaries would successfully spawn. No one seems to be concerned about that. The commercial openings and First Nations' communal and ceremonial openings are still ongoing, no one seems to have a problem with them whereas it seemed as if we we were nearing the end of the world last year when the same drift nets flow in the Fraser River. It is human nature I guess, life is good when we are able to get what we want, but it doesn't mean I can't get disappointed about it.
I don't want to be the authority in sportfishing, that is DFO's job. ;) I am simply running a service that assist and recommend how people can fish better. My previous post is a summary of my observations and interpretation of those observations. I'm not trying to tell people to stop sockeye fishing, after all you are all entitled to continue as long it is open. I understand many understand this fishery provides an opportunity to harvest some fine meat for the year. I also understand many do not take it for granted and appreciate every ounce of their catch. I posted because I worry that some new and existing problems are about to emerge from this opening. I feel that the type of posts that we have seen in the last couple of weeks provides a false representation of what recreational fishing is all about in BC. Kids and newcomers read the website frequently, they should be informed that this type of fishing is not a norm in BC, which is hardly mentioned in any Fraser River sockeye reports lately. I hope this may inspire some to realize that self moderation is not a bad thing when harvesting a resource that is shared by several user groups.
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Well I still like Nina's legs more then you :D
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Rod,
Everything in that last post made perfect sence, what got my goat earlier was that you seemed to be comming down hard on those of us that enjoyed to celebrate our catch, and have fun during what opening we are given. I'm one of those that just wait for the opening and go out when I can. Don't bother myself with DFO critizizing, or pressuring for an opening. When it's there (the opening) I have as much fun as I can, when it's gone, I start to look forward to next year. (And go for other fish in the fall).
Despide how my last post came across, I'm really enjoying your site since finding it last week, and I think you're doing a great job!
Cheers! ;D
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No offence taken Rod. Just saying what I heard from a store in Kamloops! I can see your point, but I am not encouraging, I am being realistic! We don't talk much about the guys who go out and harvest 4 coho a day though! That gets to be quite a slaughter as well.
Here is another question, and this was a comment from a DFO rep in loops! Thompson Sockeye opening might bbe announced in Near Future, what are your thoughts? Not trying to raise S*&^, just commenting!
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I'm mostly a lurker, but felt compelled to reply to this one. Rod, based on your posts (especially the ones in this thread), I am STOKED that you are representing the sportsfishing community to DFO and in local groups and communities. I don't think we could have chosen a better spokesman. Congrats, and keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Coastal
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Thanks Coastal. :)
Bigguy, regarding coho, that's a whole different ball game. The Southern BC coho salmon fishery is supplemented by hatchery productions. The fish are mostly produced for the three sectors to harvest, with mimimal impact on the recovering wild stocks. Take the Vedder River for example, even at a daily quota of 4 fish, there is usually a seasonal surplus of hatchery fish that are given to the First Nations. These are fish that are not meant to be used for further productions.
On the other hand, the Fraser River fishery in July and August targets a bulk of wild fish that is made up of hundreds of populations that are categorized by their own genetic makeups. When an angler catches a sockeye salmon this time of the year, it maybe from a strong population, but it may also be from a weak run. The more fish being taken out, escapement of the weak runs becomes smaller. While we enjoy what seemingly to be a fantastic harvest year, some of these weak runs will struggle in the meantime. This is the problem of having a fishery before the runs divert.
I can't tell you much about the Thompson River sockeyes, since it falls outside the region that I get the information on.
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Rodney, all very good points. Lets hope that some of the better anglers take some of what you said to heart.
Coho returns to the Vedder could be poor again this year due to ocean survival rates. Also this years return is coming off of a smaller release than in previous years. Lets hope that returns are higher than the 6500 fish that returned to the hatchery last year.
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Good post Rodney. I couldnt agree more and Im glad you spoke your mind.
While I feel you yourself moderate this site in a neutral and fair fashion and treat all members the same regardless of how they fish, I take no offence nor do I believe you need to apologize for sharing your opinion and feelings as you did.
Personally, I think they are bang on when it comes to this issue and the only response to it could surround feelings and personal opinion as it's pretty hard to dispute otherwise.
Sure, we all have our opinions and we can accept our differences and walk away. Too bad that our resource and sport angling's image has no choice but to accept and try to survive whichever opinion each and every one of us decides to throw at it.
Let's not forget there's more to it. Sure, it's my opinion you shouldnt drive a truck through a side channel. One can have their opinion that says they can. It's too bad in the end for the small fish that get crushed and poisoned as they have no choice in the matter. Fulfilling one's ego or stubboness is the last thing on their mind as they go belly up. :'(
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Heard that socs will be closed after the weekend! Mad rush will be on if this is true! Prob twice as many people at Peg and Scale this weekend!
back to the point though, is there any news on a closure soon??
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My guess is that with warmer weather coming and a meeting on Tuiesday I believe, it just may be closed by the weekend. :)