Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Old Black Dog on August 30, 2005, 12:37:31 PM
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JOHN CUMMINS, M.P.
Delta Richmond East
NEWS RELEASE
August 30, 2005
THEY LOVE ME, THEY LOVE ME NOT
DELTA-"DFO spent yesterday picking petals off daisies," said John
Cummins, M.P., Delta - Richmond East. "In the end they chose continued
black market sales over fish for commercial and sport fishermen."
DFO went into yesterday's meeting with industry officials with fish on
the table for a commercial opening.
Efforts to negotiate fishing opportunities were fruitless. Hours into
the meeting, when an agreement couldn't be reached, Cultus Lake sockeye
that had been available for harvest at the beginning of the meeting were
no longer available and DFO suddenly remembered that native food
fishermen needed an additional 200,000 sockeye.
"The ethics of Liberal fisheries management could keep Justice Gomery
busy for years," concluded Cummins.
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:-[ an additional 200,000 fish for the natives i say thats bs boy are we getting a stick up the _ss .i think we better get organized as sportsfisherman and make a stand or do something about this issue after all this is a free country or it used to be :'( :'(
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We need more MPs like John Cummins who dare to challenge DFO & expose their corrupted schemes of fish management.
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thats a bunch of sh*t if you ask me the natives already kill enough socks why give them more to drift net for
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As sent to Don Bell, MP for North Vancouver:
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Mr. Bell
From the DFO web site dated Aug 29th, 2005:
"There have been no commercial fisheries targeting Fraser River sockeye to date.
Based on the information presented, and given the proportions of late run
sockeye in all areas, the Department has recommended that commercial and
recreational opportunities will continue not be pursued at this time. This
recommendation is supported by Canadian members of the Fraser River Panel."
While this decision is controversial to begin with, it's also indicative of the
need to place the fisheries management under serious review. People will be in
financial ruin this year as a result of this choice. However the salmon must be
protected; no one will deny that and people will be willing to make sacrifice to
see this happens.
It is now rumoured that following this decision by the panel, First Nations will
be allowed to harvest an additional 200,000 sockeye from these same closed areas
(source: John Cummins, M.P. Aug 30 press release) . This is in addition to a
huge allotment already granted and does not take into account the fish taken by
FN peoples through the ongoing illegal fisheries (as documented by the local
news and reports to DFO).
I am Canadian. I was born in Canada, I was raised in Canada and I'm raising my
children in Canada. No man is more Canadian and no citizen is less Canadian than
I. And yet, there are race-based decisions being made on precisely this premise;
that one person is more Canadian than another. If I were to make this claim
against my ethnically different neighbour, I would be considered in breach of
the law and my behaviour would be deemed unacceptable by society, and by those
in government that represent society. And I would be expected to pay a penalty
for my error; a penalty described by this same law. Yet this same government
mathematically defines this segregation and goes further to assign different
rules for common resources. This is wrong and proves only to divide a nation;
our nation. Our collective nation. A nation that prides itself building national
strength on equality among minorities. Our very actions are proving to defy the
premise on which this nation, and our subsequent greatness was achieved. And for
what? Who wins? What is the hopeful outcome? How does this end and how can there
be a better nation derived from forced and sanctioned segregation?
This simply cannot continue. There must be equality introduced else lawlessness
will run rampant and the fish stocks will be further decimated. If the rivers
are closed to one group for fishing, they need to be closed for all. We are all
equal. Recognition of race is segregating society...no good can come of this
method of resource management. It must stop.
Please take my message to those who can do something about it. Please also let
me know you have received this note.
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Nikko
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Excellent letter Nikko
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Excellent read Nikko :D
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great letter nikko. this is the kind of letter that we all should send to our local mps, with copies to that sheep shagger campbell and that wanker marten .
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nice letter, Nikko. Well done.
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Thanks all. Let's see if I get a response now....
Nikko
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n
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Well, I expected a repsonse and chatter from my note, but I certianly did not expect to be called ignorant. And I don't believe I need correcting.
First nations may have "rights" granted to them by being the first peoples here (which in itself is debatable), however as a group they are defined as a race and the laws that define them and box them are geared towards the group as defined by a race.
DFO have three groups they refer to on a regular basis; Commercial, Recreational and First Nations fishers. I have no interest in debating the validity of these groupings or terms. I'm simply choosing to use common and accepted convention when categorizing peoples as all rules pertaining to my complaint have laid precedent for.
I didn't define the box, I'm just using it. If you want it re-defined, talk to those in governement who have the ability to do that. When that occurs, I'll use their next interperetation and classification of term. It matters not to me.
The purpose to my note was to point out the inequality bewtween Canadians and Canadians when it comes to the management of a common resource. This inequality still stands, regardless of how the various categories of people came to be.
Wrong....is stil wrong. I'm a Canadian, this is my native country, and no person is more Canadian than I. To define someone otherwise, is the very definition of racism.
Nikko
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dennisK:
My bad. You did indeed call my argument ignorant, not me. I simply drew the lines.
It's obvious you're looking for a fight and using this discussion to try and instigate one. I have a hunch you've been laying in wait for a newbie and it's fish on. OK, I'll shake my head one more time but after that, it'll be time for you to cast again. Today's not a good day to be netted :)
The premise of my argument is simple. I'm Canadian, pure Canadian, deeply Canadian and I'm not allowed to do something that another group of Canadians are allowed to do and the other group is defined (by others) as a race. It's simple. My STAUS...is Canadian. I don't want special recognition; I just want equal recognition. And my own country, by definitions described by my own governement, fails to do that.
No, I've not read the Magna Carta, and I have no intention of doing so. 700 year old "common law"? It's fluffy bunk that allows wimpy politicians to hide behind it, feign importance and shout indignance while vote trolling.
Years ago Canada was a nation that could not and did not succesfully defend itself nor call on allies to help defend itself against a hostile force and slow invasion. It was taken over, and we...the citizens, are the result. Right or wrong, that's what happened. I'm not appologiizing for it, I'm simply acknowledging it. It's the eptome of how the world's borders are/were/will be formed.
Entitlement. That very word defines the very root of the problem. No one earns anything anymore and why should they? Because if I'm entitled to something...I'll just sit on my my friend and wait for it to land in my lap. I'm getting pretty sick and tired for repenting and expecting to continually repent for a natural series of events that occured long before my time and trying to reach a compromise that cen never be defined, as the boundaries, rules and expectations are constantly changing. As I said in my original letter to Mr. Bell, "who wins? What is the hopeful outcome?".
DennisK, you attempt to justify this STATUS based division as something that has a right to pervade our society. I obviously disagree and semantics and vocaublary aside, the basis for this disagreement is the same basis for the slow degredation of our nation through the attempted recognition of "distinct societies" thought the creation and association of multiple sets of rules. How can we ever be one nation if our neighbours and I have different rules? No nation has ever been built like this. But nations certianly have failed because of this. Unfortunately, unless this changes, Canada is likely to fail as well. What we're seeing on the west coast is the ever broadening crack in the unity that's defined under the maple leaf. Arguments like yours only serve to push the wedge in a little deeper. Quit trying to justify segregation or the acepted norms that define segregation and put your obvious intellignece towards unification and fairness.
What a place this could be if only we all did that.
Nikko
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Dennis, the thought that the DFO doesnt manage the fishery based on race is REDICULOUS. Look at the pilot sales program 2 years ago that allowed FN to sell fish...DFO tryed a race base fishery there and the supreme court of canada defeated it as it was against our constitution.
No one debates FN right to fish for FOOD/COMMUNITY/CERIMONY. What we debate is that what they do actually fits in to the perameters of such a program.
Did you read my post on the Allocation Transfer Program. DFO has $4 mil a year to buy COMMERCIAL liscences and TRANFER that quota to FN...doenst it sound like they are trying to give FN a priority on the resource?
Bottom line is that with poaching and blankmarket sales of fish being rampant, any reasonable (opposed to ignorant) person can question this thing DFO calls a FOOD fishery.
And if this is a FOOD fishery why are pinks not targeted and when caught as a by product, they are discarded...that sickens me to read reports like the one that came out ourt of the harrison this weekend and sockeye rotting in a ditch, etc.
DFO through the Sparrow Descision has a very weak position in prosicuting FN for over fishing/poaching/etc.
With what I have seen this year on the fraser and with programs like the ATP, one is only left to assume they want to do away with our comercial fleet so that they can give the comercail fleets allocation to FN and hopefully garner better relations and gain a little bit more control.
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Its funny you didnt debate a single point I made Dennis.
Fact is DFO already tried a race based fishery which was punted out as being unconstitutional by the supreme court of canada.
Another fact you fail to address is the idea of a "Food Fishery" vs what is actually going on right now. Do FN really need 500,000+++ sockeye when there is plenty of pinks, chum, springs, and coho?
I guess the ATP doesnt really help your postion either, so I guess we'll ignore that too.
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So Dennis, should FN get ALL THE FISH???
Thats what it has amounted too so far this year...not what they need for sustanance...they have actually taken a s**t load more than that.
ATF is supposed to buy out whitey commercial liscences because "FN are under represented in BC commercial fishing industry"....What has the FN exposure been on the fraser this year?? 100% and goose eggs for sporties and the commercial guys....does that sound fair - considering their food needs have been met.
"Do FN really need 500,000 fish? Sure, why not." So dennis, should I harvest so much salmon that it freezer burns in the bottom of my deep freeze? ..."Sure why not"....lets face it, most of these FN fishers are a greedy as any corporation or industry.
So as healthcare cost increase (personal), education cost increase, housing cost increase etc, its not enuff that the Canada doles out 8 BILLION a year to Indian affairs to provide all sorts of free s**t to of FN people...now you are saying they deserve all the fish too?!?
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actually dennis why don;t we go there ??
where would the aboriginals be if the british, french,followed by all us other people be
if we didn't come
maybe mexico bet your glad you don't live there eh !!!
maybe the russians would have followed mr.bering
how would being part of the USSR SUIT YOU ???
ANSWER AT WILL
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Gooey is right on the point. FN has been given the most consideration from our government, billions and billions of programs & aids, free taxes & freebies all over. I wish ordinary struggling Canadian families have these kinds of freebies. FN have been well cared for by our kinder & gentler nation. We have all known what bad things had been committed by victorious conquerors in those by-gone days of wars & colonizations. Comparatively, Canada has been very civil. 'White guilt' should not justify the rampant fish poaching in the Fraser. Conservation is top priority of DFO, so it should enforce the law regardless of the 'race' or ethnic origin of the offenders. Giving all the fish to one race in an effort to appease them is wrong. Turning a blind eye to the reckless fishing illegalities (illegal netting & sales of fish) is not fish conservation. It is politics. FN are entitled to food & ceremonial fisheries, not raping fish resources for greed. Cheer to Gooey & Nikko.
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Oh come on Dennis, you didnt even read my post. Conservation is DFO's main priority so the percentage of the total run which Fn harvestes is not an important number.
The important number is what percentage of the ESCAPEMENT that dfo allocated for harvesting...what percentage did they get.
Lets do the math properly this time:
FN allocated catch (lets be conserative and no poaching figures: 400,000
Commercail: ZERO//NUTHING/NADA/ZILCH/ZIP/etc: (0)
Sporties: one 8 day opeing (last year we took 50K in 2w so....) 50,000 (very aggressive estimate)
So by my math FN took 85.5% of the run (and thats based on a very comservative number for FN and a very high number for sport). If what we hear is correct and one counted fish in the FN allotments equals 2 uncounted/poached fish then they may have taken more like 1.5 million fish (97% of the harvested Fraser socs).
Mean while they throw dead pinks back in the river (probably not enuff COMERCIAL value to them) and dump a truck load of rotting sockeye in a ditch. I hate when I freezer burn one fillet...let alone a truck load.
So tell me Dennis, is this how Canada's FN forefathers did it? Do you think their ancestors would be proud right now? More importantly, is this sustainable?
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seems Dennis is just trying to stir the pot folks....don't bite anymore...just remember his stance...I certainly will.....just a thought....my "ancestors" were conquerers....crusaders and the like....maybe I should take up my sword and shield and continue my "inherent ancestorial" rights?????....bunch of crap u r offloading Dennis... IMHO.....go fishing.....go get beer....but just GO!!!!!
mojo...your milage may vary....;)))
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mojo and you other newbies - "If you believe anyone who disagrees with you actually has some master plan about being anti-newbie...well then you have some unresolved issues. I can't help you with those."
dennisK:
I never said you had a master plan to attack newbies. I said you smelled a newbie and came out on the offensive, obviously looking to pick a fight. Your opinions were detailed well enough that I hazard to say you've had this discussion (or one like it) on this forum before and that the Sr. members knew well enough to let them go. I didn't...and I subsequently set the table for you...comeplete with silver and napkins.
I don't have a problem doing this; it's all good debate and even if I don't agree with you or your principles, and even if you've painted me with a mis-coloured brush, I still enjoy reading what you took the time to type. And contrary to what you may think, I actually mulled over your opinions and justifications of STATUS and the priveledges associated to it before I tossed them..
I may be a newbie on this forum, but not to forum life in general. And you acted like a trap-door spide towards my original post. That's not a bad thing, but it's a reality and defines your introduction to me. Now I know, and now I'll be a bit more careful about baiting you. Which could lead to even more animation one day :)
Unresloved issues? That's the second time you aimed that towards me and terms like that are gettng a little close to being insulting. Let's not go there OK? It won't do anyone any good. Let's keep this aimed at the issues that divide us in hopes of finsing a common glue.
Nikko
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mojo and you other newbies - "If you believe anyone who disagrees with you actually has some master plan about being anti-newbie...well then you have some unresolved issues. I can't help you with those."
newbie?????....too what...this forum maybe....but I'd b checkin' up on your info b4 u go pasting folks with silly names etc....oh....come visit the South Oakanagan....I'll take ya out fishin'...maybe u will find out who the newbie really is!!!!!!...besides....always lookin' for another fishin' buddy...;))))
mojo
now lets all play nice
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FN came to this land (what is called Canada) maybe thousands of years ago(before the nation was formed). They are believed to be same ancestry as Mongolians. They are in effect emmigrants. (maybe people who doesn't like to live in a society setting).
When Columbus 'discovered' the 'new world' people start to move to this newly discovered world. They are ineffect same status as FN.
Who gave the so called rights to FN when they first arrived?
And who gave the first westerner the so called right when they first arrived?
One person arriving before another does not mean they have more rights.
In a country, a governed society, equality is a must. No one should be more equal then others.
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Until everyone is treated as equals, this PLANET wil be the way it is...look at isreal/palistine, alll the factions in Iraq, etc. We will never get to that "star trek" type of global comunity if we keep on differentiating ourselves from eachother and EXPECTING different treatment. Bit of a silly example but it kinda makes sense.
PS Dennis I dont know what you are missing. DFO top 2 priorities are: Conservation followed by FN food fisheries. Our courts have mandated that we can't stop FN from fishing unless conservation issues exsist.
very simplistic model: DFO looks at a returning run and says we need (for successful propogation of that run) 100,000 fish here, 75,000 there. They then forecast the run (lets say 300,000) and use various models to estimate the run as it comes in. Lets assume from test fisheries they determine there are 200,000 returning, they would then allocate 25,000 fish out to the various user groups with priority being on FN....Does that example make sense?
Do you think FN should get 100% of the surplus fish (thats the fraser right now)? Are you saying FN should be able to access what ever they like of the 6+ million fish? Do you think they should be able to fish despite any DFO conservation mandates or environmental factors? What ids your position?
You say they are only taking 9% (of 6+ mil)...commercial is still getting ZERO PERCENT of what ever number you care to use. And sporties, a very tiny portion.
As Canadians, our main concern is there is no equity - are we wrong for wanting equity!