Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on August 20, 2005, 10:12:44 PM
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Today, Chris, Nina and I were invited by the BC Fisheries Survival Coalition to board one of the commercial boats and observe the First Nation fishery. We were observing the Musqueam and Tsawwassen First Nations. Both have a 48 hour opening from 1200 Friday to 1200 Sunday below Port Mann Bridge. It was quite a new experience, but what we witnessed were not too pleasant.
The objective today was:
- To film the nets being set and picked and count how many fish were being caught per set,
- and to observe how the fish harvested are being monitored and counted.
Armed with two video cameras (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0643.jpg), the captain took us out from Ladner. Immediately, we slowly went by a dock where several band boats were being unloaded with fish. Notice the totes that were sitting on the dock.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0625.jpg)
After observing for awhile, we proceeded to head out to the mouth of the Fraser River. Traffic was fairly heavy, with FN boats, recreational boats, whale watching boats and large tug and cargo boats constantly moving by. To make things more interesting, there were seals all over the place, floating about and waiting for a good meal. Once awhile, a large sturgeon or chinook would leap straight out, so it was never a boring moment.
Once we arrived in the area where we wanted to be, the filming and observing began. Understanding that what we we were doing could be quite intrusive, we kept our distance and zoomed right in to see the fish that were being pulled up. Four of us counted as the nets were being pulled in, "One, two, three, four..."
At first, we were only able to count some of the nets that were already partially pulled in. Most partial sets we counted were around 30 fish (sockeyes).
This was around 1pm, the tide was still going out quite strongly. Fishing was not supposed to be great. The best fishing was still to come when the tide began to rise. Because of the timing, there were not as many boats out there as we had hoped for. We decided that it was time for lunch. While eating, several boats arrived and began to set their nets. We watched closely and were ready to count when the fishermen started to pull their nets in.
While Chris was enjoying the timbits that I brought him, one of the boats was ready to pick their fish. We quickly jumped up and started the counting. Sockeyes were plentiful, there were several after each pull. By the end of the picking, we counted 63 sockeye and 2 chinook salmon.
We drifted more closely to the boat as our captain knew the crew of that boat. After a quick greeting, one of the fishermen asked what we were doing. Just before they took off, he made a comment that all of us heard, "You guys just don't give up do you? This is our fish now."
They travelled several hundred meters upstream and proceeded to set the net again.
After several counts, we slowly traveled upstream to count how many boats were out fishing. Seals were also having a feast as a trapped sockeye makes an easy meal. At one point, we witnessed one fishermen pulling out a rifle and shot at a seal.
When we drove by the boat launch near London's Landing, we saw several trucks loaded with totes waiting. This was not a designated FN fish unloading site.
Near the end of our trip, we discovered one net (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0685.jpg) that was abandoned along the shore.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0686.sized.jpg)
Just when we thought that we had seen everything, this popped up in front of us. ;D
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0694.jpg)
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0695.jpg)
I don't think I need to comment on the boat, the photo tells the story.
One thing to keep in mind is that, when you decide to purchase a fish from a road side sale stand, you do not know where that fish was caught, how it has been stored. Many boats used in this fishery are not designed to store large number of fish properly, one has to wonder how the fish are being kept fresh.
We also ran into the PSC test fishery boat (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0691.jpg) for Cottonwood. They indicated that today was the best sockeye result so far (I can't remember the number that was given, you can pull it out of the test fishery page).
Right before we returned to our dock, we went by a recreational boat launch, which is not a designated fish unloading site for the First Nation fishery.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0697.jpg)
In the picture, you can see two FN boats parked at the launch with trucks loaded with totes near the top. One recreational boat patiently waited as they wanted to pull their boat out. The FN boats had taken up all the launch space. When they saw us coming, one boat filled with several young passengers quickly drove away, while they made some interesting hand gestures at us.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album34/DSCF0701.jpg)
Chris asked, "Is there a fish counter at site?"
All of us laughed, there wasn't one to be seen.
During the entire time while we were out (from noon until 4:30pm), DFO officers and monitors were not seen anywhere.
Today's trip provided me a new perspective on what is going on in our Fraser River fishery and made me more willing to bring the information that I gather to all of you. This so-called legal fishery, in my opinion, is poorly managed. Sometimes (ok, every night now) I ask myself, "What the heck is going on?". Why are people not appreciating the seriousness of this issue, or am I just going crazy?
These fish that are being unloaded into totes, why are they not counted at site by DFO monitors so we can have a better understanding on CPUE and escapement? Where are the designated fish unloading sites and why are fish being unloaded at all these different launches where no one would notice? During this 48 hour opening, just how many fish is DFO expecting each boat to pull out, and is there even a set quota for each boat?
So far, from the Fraser River mouth to Sawmill Creek, First Nations have had over 9,000 hours of openings. Over 2,400 of these hours are for the sockeye fishery.
If one boat fishing at the Fraser River mouth, where it is wide and deep, pulling out over 60 sockeyes in a ten minute set, then how many fish are being pulled out in total per boat in one day? How many fish are being pulled out per band? How many fish are being pulled out per opening? How many boats are fishing per band?
The First Nations catch result of Fraser River sockeye can be seen on this page (http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/SockeyeKeptCatch.html) from DFO Pacific. How are these numbers gathered and just how credible are they?
Based on that data sheet, during a 30 hour opening on August 12 and 13, the Musqueam First Nation pulled out 8682 sockeye salmon. First of all, that's just one weekend. Secondly, how do you store 8682 sockeye salmon?
8682 fish!!
I must say it was exciting to see fish being pulled out of the water like sardines today. Big fish, small fish, we were eager to see what was coming out of the net next.
At the same time, it angers me to see over 30 daily recreational quotas being pulled out in ten minutes. Those 30 daily quotas could have been over 60 hours of work for some guide in the Fraser Valley.
I could also see the pain and frustration of the commercial fishermen who were being told that they can not work while they watch on the sideline.
It also scares and saddens me as we were possibly witnessing an uncontrolled fishery that may just lead to a large ecological disaster in the near future, an ecological disaster where no winner is crowned.
As mentioned before, my interest in this is not to see the elimination of the communal and ceremonial fisheries. It's not about us against them. It's about the fish for the future can only be saved by a proper management. Until these unanswered questions are being dealt with, the sportfishing community will continue to pressure DFO for answers. Ask questions now, because there isn't a point to ask when there are no fish left.
What are you going to do about it?
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Excellent report Rodney, now I do not have to write much.
May main concern what I saw today was there is no control of what was going on at all. No appearance of FOC at all and after we got off the boat around 3:30 I stayed in the area until dark and the more I saw the more I had an understanding of the frustration the commercial sector has with this race based fishery. I visited several landing sites, fish being processed everywhere, even saw a bunch all vacuum packed waiting to be picked up by someone one, trucks with totes going back and forth all the time. The only thing I did not see was a fish sale. I even changed into my dumpster diving clothes, wandered around picking up bottles in the area of Wellington Point Park to see if I could get a sale in progress with the video camera. Dozens of totes were being iunloaded there but did not get a transaction on film but there was people around that looked like they may have been buyers.
An enjoyable and long day but very sad to see, I hazard to guess thousands of fish being taken with none being counted, FOC should be ashamed of themselves for letting this fishery go on unchecked and unmontitored.
I now know the fish numbers are there to allow a sports fishery even though I donot participate. If an opening was granted they would take far less than were taken today, it is all political my friends that is why there is no rec or commercial fishery happening right now. >:(
The bright spot was seeing an rec angler enjoying fishing for pike minnows as the sun was setting. He called them white fish and was going to make some type of soup with them. I believe I have a picture that Rodney may post.
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What are you going to do about it?
Really,i dont think we can do anything about this,cause even the dfo or the government turn on their blind eyes,we are just the little guy with the small mouth. If they can print these incidents in the Vancouver Sun then it is obvious that the DFO is USELESS against this situation. They call themselves officers of this country yet they can not convict ANYONE. So, this tells you something about the government who runs this country and get paid the BIG bucks for passing out these so called laws and don't do anything about it.
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Fact is, DFO knows about the issue, they spend no money to track for the reasons that they aren't given any--and why bother to know when they aren't going to do anything about it anyways? . Fact is the Minister in charge doesn't want to make his job hard and deal with the issues. The issue isn't FN, the issue is the government.
FACT: Until the government gets off its my friend and does something about itNOTHING is going to be done.
Nothing short of the Vancouver Sun spending time on the issue and the news doing these stories is going to sway and encourage action by the government.
What am I going to do about it? I have written my letter.
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Thanks Rodney for another perspective on this fishery. What can we do about it ? Hate to say, very little as long as DFO is running the show. Before DFO blames the warm water conditions, they should look at themselves first ! >:(
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What we can do is band together and fight this thing, if we just sit back and do nothing we will lose our salmon sport fishery. Also donate to the SDA fund if possible. Looking forward to our SDA meeting tomorrrow to formulate our game plan for the future. ;D
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Rodney Today at 10:12:44 PM: At the same time, it angers me to see over 30 daily recreational quotas being pulled out in ten minutes. Those 30 daily quotas could have been over 60 hours of work for some guide in the Fraser Valley.
I'm rather stunned by this comment Rod and surprised it's coming from you of all people. :o
Are you trying to say that rec guide operators should have more status to harvest them sockeye by taking out $ paying customers to snag fish?
Explain to me how you come to this conclusion? Economics? :-\ Are you stating that FN don't/shouldn't have this food/ceremonial fishery? ???
Personally Rod I believe that some guide operators are just as greed driven as ... lets say the Cheam.
What you've experienced today has transpired on the Fraser for decades. Usually it's the tax paying commercial boys you'd see in them boats. But politics and certain spineless governments have seen to it that they'll be run into the poor house and be replaced by the FN you watched today. Makes for a good pacifier while other items are stalled. Maybe the FN, at this time of the year can feel allot of self worth and snub their noses at all the whining rec anglers stuck on the beach. ???
What are you going to do about it?
I've posted warnings years ago on this site and others, written the letters, attending the meetings. Right now, nothing at the moment ... I'll sit back and watch, shake my head. I've ceased my runs to the Fraser.
Maybe an organization with some huge testicular fortitude will finally emerge and take this on at the head, even if it means getting nasty ... no more Mr. Niceguy. And without any one stakeholder benefitting more than others ... only the fish. ;D
You interested in leading. ???
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[Maybe an organization with some huge testicular fortitude will finally emerge and take this on at the head, even if it means getting nasty ... no more Mr. Niceguy. And without any one stakeholder benefitting more than others ... only the fish. ;D
You interested in leading. ???
The SDA will be the one to carry this on. The SDA has been around for a number of years but it has taken time for most of the general fishing public to realize what was going to happen, now it has happened. The SDA that has excutive members made up of a number of fishing groups has a great president in Bill Otway.
If anglers only knew the amount of time the SDA volunteers have put in fighting for them the last while, most have no idea of the hundreds of hours given, all volunterred freely.
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[Maybe an organization with some huge testicular fortitude will finally emerge and take this on at the head, even if it means getting nasty ... no more Mr. Niceguy. And without any one stakeholder benefitting more than others ... only the fish. ;D
You interested in leading. ???
The SDA will be the one to carry this on. The SDA has been around for a number of years but it has taken time for most of the general fishing public to realize what was going to happen, now it has happened. The SDA that has executive members made up of a number of fishing groups has a great president in Bill Otway.
If anglers only knew the amount of time the SDA volunteers have put in fighting for them the last while, most have no idea of the hundreds of hours given, all volunteered freely.
The SDA ... are they prepared to play hard ball politics Chris or still pussy foot around still?
I've worked with Bill for many years back with the Pitt Waterfowl Management Association in conjunction with DU. Canadian Wildlife Service (DFO equivalent for migratory game birds) eventually were the demise of us. Red tape politics being the major divorce factor in what could of been a productive relationship for the wood duck population and Canada goose issue that the PWMA voluntarily would fund in the lower valley. I've also stood behind him on the Lower Mainland Region board of the BCWF. Yes a tireless warrior.
But why is it that the general fishing public didn't get it back then Chris? Why ... Because a majority of them couldn't give a pikeminnows a$$ about fish stocks. As long as they caught something for the dollars they paid and other groups didn't get more than them. Exactly like some of the chit that is being posted on this board. Here's a quick survey members of SDA can do while afield this fall to substantiate it. Ask the angler beside you if he belongs to and is an active member to the SDA. Then try BCWF, BCFDF, BCFFF ect.The rest of your urban voting public really couldn't care less about FN fisheries and sockeye stocks. And them clowns in charge know this. What the heck you think them spin doctors are there for? :D
As for the giving up volunteer hours, yes Chris I certainly do know. Maybe all that running into block walls has made me hardheaded now. ::)
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Are you trying to say that rec guide operators should have more status to harvest them sockeye by taking out $ paying customers to snag fish?
Explain to me how you come to this conclusion? Economics?
Simply trying to emphasize how much each of these sockeye salmon has been devalued.
It's not up to me to decide how a guiding company should operate, that's the province's job. I'm tired, and do not intend to get into the ethics of fishing. Actually, I'm not up for that, I have not mastered the fishing skills to tell how one should fish, I know a handful of experts in ethics who can engage in these debates for hours though. ;)
Are you stating that FN don't/shouldn't have this food/ceremonial fishery? ???
My original post: As mentioned before, my interest in this is not to see the elimination of the communal and ceremonial fisheries. ???
Personally Rod I believe that some guide operators are just as greed driven as ... lets say the Cheam.
Human are greedy, that's why a proper management is needed to control the users of the resource, as I stated in my original post.
I've posted warnings years ago on this site and others, written the letters, attending the meetings. Right now, nothing at the moment ... I'll sit back and watch, shake my head. I've ceased my runs to the Fraser.
Well that's good to know. Wiser than us, yet choose to stand by and watch us self-destruct.
You interested in leading. ???
No, I'm a nice guy, and the biggest beek according to another thread. ;D
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At the same time, it angers me to see over 30 daily recreational quotas being pulled out in ten minutes. Those 30 daily quotas could have been over 60 hours of work for some guide in the Fraser Valley.
Bantam_50
Interesting that you should focus on 2 sentences out of the whole post. Obviously any ignoranus can take 2 sentences and put them out of context. It seems to me, and all of the others who have replied, that the general context of the post is that DFO basically has no idea of what is really going on. I mean, how could they have an idea of what is going on if they are not present to observe? I guess you must've missed that part. Maybe this will help -- There was no DFO/FOC presence to monitor and observe the fishery, therefore, how can DFO/FOC properly manage allocations, estimate run size etc. if they aren't even there.
Or are you stating that the FNs should be allowed to do whatever they want to supposedly dwindling stocks of salmon (in this case, it happens to be sockeye)? Are you condoning DFO's actions? Nowhere in Rodney's post do I see him stating that FNs shouldn't have a food/ceremonial opening, but I guess you do. I guess you also believe all of DFO's numbers regarding salmon returns. If that is the case then you must believe that flossing is legal (I didn't say ethical) because DFO allows it.
As to your comments regarding guides and economics, doesn't this tell you that perhaps the recreational sockeye harvest is legal and accepted by DFO? No, guides do not have priority of FN, nobody but you ever said that. It is plain fact that the legally recognized recreational sockeye harvest in the Fraser Valley brings in millions of dollars directly and indirectly. If you don't think this is true, talk to the businesses in the Chilliwack/Hope area after the sockeye have passed, especially if there is no opening. Most business oriented ppl are greedy as it is the bottom line (profit) that matters (to an extent). Basically, I think what Rodney, and Chris for that matter, is trying to say is that if DFO was to properly control/monitor and observe these openings then perhaps there could be a recreational opening, even if it was short, thereby benefitting everybody in the above mentioned communities.
I'm sure it is true that what is happening on the Fraser has been going on for years, except now it is FN not commercial fleets. However, would you not agree that there is a big difference? The commercial guys take their catch to proper packers/canneries and total fish taken can be somewhat monitored and sales can be audited, taxed etc.. As Rodney alluded to, where are the FN guys taking their fish, how is it getting stored/processed and where does it end up? Why are they using unregulated unloading zones?
Next time instead of taking a couple of sentences out of a whole post and twisting it out of context, why don't you post something more credible.
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Did you notice that many of the FN fishers can actually afford better boats than most of us?
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Itosh,
Did you actually read my post or just come running to Rod's aid"?
I'm sorry if I refrained from starting my post by stating what a wonderful job Rod did in conveying what some (sorry I'm up to speed) aren't aware of on the Fraser. ::)
Now ...
Interesting that you should focus on 2 sentences out of the whole post. Obviously any ignoranus can take 2 sentences and put them out of context. It seems to me, and all of the others who have replied, that the general context of the post is that DFO basically has no idea of what is really going on. I mean, how could they have an idea of what is going on if they are not present to observe? I guess you must've missed that part. Maybe this will help -- There was no DFO/FOC presence to monitor and observe the fishery, therefore, how can DFO/FOC properly manage allocations, estimate run size etc. if they aren't even there.
I don't believe my focus was on 2 sentences, but rather I quoted I was stunned it came from Rod, who usually doesn't come across as being biased. Which IMO is what the the 2 sentences could represent. Hence that is why all the ? at the end of the flow- up questions. But then any talented ignoramus would have seen that. ::) Some may feel/think that DFO doesn't have a clue what's going on. How untrue. Remember Devona Adams? Why'd she leave? Uhhm .. Itosh, sorry to disappoint you but it's known that DFO hasn't been present for years. :D As far as proper management how about a public enquiry requesting that info?
Or are you stating that the FNs should be allowed to do whatever they want to supposedly dwindling stocks of salmon (in this case, it happens to be sockeye)? Are you condoning DFO's actions? Nowhere in Rodney's post do I see him stating that FNs shouldn't have a food/ceremonial opening, but I guess you do. I guess you also believe all of DFO's numbers regarding salmon returns. If that is the case then you must believe that flossing is legal (I didn't say ethical) because DFO allows it.
Never did state. I believe ? makes it a question. Again the comment was uncharacteristic of Rod and left it wide open to question. So no need to grasp here.
As to your comments regarding guides and economics, doesn't this tell you that perhaps the recreational sockeye harvest is legal and accepted by DFO? No, guides do not have priority of FN, nobody but you ever said that. It is plain fact that the legally recognized recreational sockeye harvest in the Fraser Valley brings in millions of dollars directly and indirectly. If you don't think this is true, talk to the businesses in the Chilliwack/Hope area after the sockeye have passed, especially if there is no opening. Most business oriented ppl are greedy as it is the bottom line (profit) that matters (to an extent). Basically, I think what Rodney, and Chris for that matter, is trying to say is that if DFO was to properly control/monitor and observe these openings then perhaps there could be a recreational opening, even if it was short, thereby benefitting everybody in the above mentioned communities.
Please try and quote what I post. ::) In regards to DFO and guides/economics ... I'll sum it up by saying IMHO ... appeasement. DFO was forced this hand years ago and needless to say a Pandora's box was opened when they agreed. The Pandora's box did indeed create a economic boom for some ... but could the downside be worse if the stocks crash? That's what we should be asking ourselves. You need to start with solid runs first, it appears they could be in question. Did you read Flying Magicians post in regards to the east Is. go ask those businesses about economics. When was it I was at Georgia Basin Chinook stock meetings? Bill Otway knows ... what did DFO tell economically worried businesses ... there's all kinds of coho that'll compensate it. :D
I'm sure it is true that what is happening on the Fraser has been going on for years, except now it is FN not commercial fleets. However, would you not agree that there is a big difference? The commercial guys take their catch to proper packers/canneries and total fish taken can be somewhat monitored and sales can be audited, taxed etc.. As Rodney alluded to, where are the FN guys taking their fish, how is it getting stored/processed and where does it end up? Why are they using unregulated unloading zones?
Actually Itosh the FN fishery currently is taking less fish than commercial fleets of before. And yes Rod did bring about very valid points regarding monitoring the FN. Again this is left to politics or public pressure to know. But it better be hot and heavy or you'll be brushed aside and ignored.
Next time instead of taking a couple of sentences out of a whole post and twisting it out of context, why don't you post something more credible.
Nothing was twisted. As for credible. ;D Lets just say you won't win any debates with a closing like that Itosh ... especially when you're defending not debating. ;)
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Rod:
Keep up the good work. I hope you and the others will be able to invite the news people (television, radio, and print) to force the politicians to respond to what is going on.
I plan to write a letter to the Prime Minister tommorrow.
I also want to let as many people know as possible that a month ago, I emailed my MP Don Bell on his website and he did not respond. My email was on the Fraser FN situation and I requested a reply.
I look forward to your next observation and I hope there will be better news but I know better.
Norm
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Rod & Chris, Great article which gives everyone a better perspective of whats really going on during FN fisheries. Unmonitored landing sites is probably more the norm than not. Unfortunately do to severe budget cuts to DFO/FOC its becoming more difficult to have a presence in some of these areas. Lots of bickering going on about the rights and wrongs of the sockeye / chinook fisheries which only plays into the hands of first nations and foc. If we do not stand together as one united group than nothing will change ,and we will all be taking up golf. And you know - I Hate Golf. However, I do know where to get some cheap golf balls - Chris
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The feds have been working on transfering fishing rights from commercial to natives for years now. This trend will conntinue and I wouldn't want to be a non native salmon fisherman now. In my mind the newer issue this year is if the increasing native allocation will also come at the expense of the sport angler. No open seasons, injunctions to keep boats off the river etc. The bickering among sports anglers will only make it easier for DFO to appease the natives further by totally shutting doen the river, first to sockeye, then maybe for everything.
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just read rod's response to his experience watching the fn's fishery. i think its great to see that rod and company had an opportunity to witness a different perspective first hand to gain a better understanding of a fishery that has caused a lot of discussion over the years.
i don't totally disagree with a fn fishery but i to believe there needs to be more regulation and better decisions being made at the top. my questions would be similar to others who have replied to rods post...
1. can't the dfo limit the number of sockeye or salmon per family? rod seemed to be suprised that the fn nets contained up to sixty fish but i have witnessed first hand some of these 50 fathom nets catching over hundreds at one time. if the dfo can't regulate how many these people catch then can't they at least make the nets shorter so that they don't catch as much during one opening? along the same idea as shortening nets, how about lessening the number of crab traps that fn's can use. currently, each fn can fish with up to fifty traps per person no license needed. i find this a little over kill. especially since crabs are so fragile and need to be cooked alive/ or shortly after. with fifty crab traps you could realistically catch hundreds of crabs in one day.
2. what about creating fish unloading stations for fn fishery. this way if the dfo dosen't have enough resources to count the fish caught on each boat then perhaps the dfo can get a better idea of how many fish are being harvested by the individual groups if they can monitor the various unloading docks. (probably unrealistic but just an idea)
3. just food for thought but if there is no market for fn salmon/seafood, then there wouldn't be the desire to catch so many quantities of fish and shellfish. so if the dfo won't change the way fn's are fishing then why doesn't the government hit the people buying this salmon harder. rcmp, health inspectors, dfo and conservation all have the authority to charge people for buying illegal fish/shellfish therefore, why don't we focus more on this angle. also, the public who is complaining about this fishery and who are showing concerns about the sockeye should not buy this fish illegally from trucks etc.
just frustrated like everyone else and thinking aloud.
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We were just going through the video footages that we captured yesterday. Most are very good, some are shaky because of the zoom-in, but overall it provided a good summary of the points that we want to make.
The Sportfishing Defence Alliance is having a meeting this afternoon to discuss these issues that are taking place. Our concerns were sent out overnight by email to the everyone on the SFAB and we urged them to forward this so the issues can be heard. We'll also make sure that these footages and concerns are mailed to the ministers.
In the meantime, you can support by printing out this SDA donation form (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/file/050805.doc) and mail it in with a cheque so we can continue the work. Phone the ORR line 1-800-465-4336 when you encounter fishery violations (on that note, we have received a signed statement from a Fraser River Guide who says that the Observe Record Report Line (ORR) told him to stop phoning in illegal drifting ::) ).
Thank you for your input and support. :)
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Great post ROD!!! maybe you can link some of the footage to the websit so we can download clips and also see whats going on.....Mind you i am already disgusted with what i have just read....... I know that if this keeps up i am going to have to sit down my kids and tell them that I used to catch salmon in those waters all the time.... Sad outlook as to what things are going to be like in 20 years....
I remember my dad saying that in the early 80's he would go fishing and leave after the first fish.... The average fishing trip took 30 minutes or less..
By the way... those FN boys sure have nice boats... while i am making a modest living of over 50k a year I am thinking of buying a little old car topper cause thats all i can afford........I guess sales of socks on the side of the road pay well...ok thats enough from me i gues :-X :-X :-X
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It was a very interesting and educational experience being on a commercial fishing boat yesterday, not to mention tons of fun!
It gave me a look into a world that I have little knowledge on.
Highlight of the day was watching a seagull and a seal fighting over a salmon. Scariest moment of the day was when a fisherman pulled out a huge gun just 20 meters from our boat to shoot a seal. Boy, if I had gotten that on video it would certainly help turning the tide.
Now that we have seen what is going on first hand and documented it, it is time to decide on the next move. People on the board have posted lots of good and in my opinion less good ideas (civil disorder is not the way - in the end it will backfire) but keep the ideas coming!
Like fishingbuddha said, I think a major problem is that the general public is not aware of the consequences of buying fish from the natives. There are health, environmental and legal issues which people just don't think about. Our skipper yesterday mentioned the idea of making a sponsored broadcast on TV letting the public know about these issues. Maybe this is something for SDA to look into. If there are no buyers, there are no sellers. Who is in charge of ticketing these buyers anyway? Is it the DFO or the police? If it is the police, maybe put pressure on them as well.
If the DFO lacks money, then how about training some volunteers to do the fish counting at some designated loading areas? In general make more use of trained volunteers. This is just ideas of the top of my head.
Despite everything it was a great day to be out yesterday, thanks to our skipper for taking us out. :)
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a group called the wilderness comitte came to my door the other day and i gave them a donation... They said that they are infavor of fishing but would like better management techniques... you guys should contact them... They are a very powerful group that have saved many natural resources and have alot of members...
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I'd better start this post off right or I'll get jumped again. :P
Nina it's great to see you had the chance also to experience first hand what commercial fisherman are fighting to retain but rapidly losing. And yes, how DFO allows FN free reign in their court awarded fishery.
Couple of items I'd like to point out though.
Scariest moment of the day was when a fisherman pulled out a huge gun just 20 meters from our boat to shoot a seal. Boy, if I had gotten that on video it would certainly help turning the tide.
Both FN and Commercial fishers both use firearms on seals. Have been for years due to the high populations ... but another debatable issue. I'm sure your skipper was aware of this. ;) I even know of some rec anglers who cull the odd 1 now and then. So it's nothing really to use against one group. And I'm sure animals activist groups are also aware it takes place. Just not on a large enough scale to require the attention.
Like fishingbuddha said, I think a major problem is that the general public is not aware of the consequences of buying fish from the natives. There are health, environmental and legal issues which people just don't think about. Our skipper yesterday mentioned the idea of making a sponsored broadcast on TV letting the public know about these issues. Maybe this is something for SDA to look into. If there are no buyers, there are no sellers. Who is in charge of ticketing these buyers anyway? Is it the DFO or the police? If it is the police, maybe put pressure on them as well.
I totally agree .... unfortunately it'll never happen ..... even if enforcement was greatly increased. Present day society already proves that even if it's illegal but cheaper they'll come. Underground blackmarket sales is a huge part of any country's economy. Just the other day a fellow at work talked about how he and friends would make runs to the reserves and fill their coolers with sockeye ... even my bro-in law was buying them against my displeasure. >:( We'd have to change society to a total authoritarian police state. :o That's where our bleeding heart Civil Rights group would wail louder than what rec anglers have been doing the last decade. Why not just allow FN the right to sell, but monitor it. Tax them. Jeez, I think I'm saying why don't me just make them part of the commercial fleet. Those non-FN commercial boat who want to get out can be bought out by FN. I'm sure the government could subsidize these cost through trade offs included in treaty negotiations. :-\
Hope I'm not casting any less good ideas :P But then what's wrong with a few rebel rouser's? ;D
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thx,rod,nina and chris for a great eye opening post.hopfuly we can stop arguing amongest our selves and support sda,seems to be the only avenue we have,to get better enforcment on the river.like having someone count fish on each and every boat fishing(which is kind of laughable,because they re not fishing) and stop at certain limit or number.jsut my 2 cents.cheers.
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You should invite the media onto your boat, and let them get some footage for a wider audience to see
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Bantam_50 and Rod, really great insight and information. It's nice to see some well thought and first hand information on this subject. What Bantam 50 said about the "illegal but cheaper" is unfortunately correct. So many people i know who fish and don't fish want a little something for the bbq on a summers evening and know where to go for a 7 dollar sockeye. It's unfortunate and against the law, but to these people it's a savings of roughly 23 dollars per fish if bought from a fish monger or grocery store. Even the one or two fish boats at the steveston docks selling them for 6 dollars a pound is going to have a rough time with those prices. Again, great info Rod and Bantam.
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One day in the very near future, this very resource will be depleted and the finger pointing will start.
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just rumors....but how about 3 dams on the fraser. The US is pushing the idea.
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Now you are getting the picture. This was the basis of my comments on the news/rumours thread on Aug 17. The americans have been looking at this idea for years. If WAC Bennett was still around, the dams would have been built long ago.
This is a battle we can not win. The Fraser runs will one day become extinct starting with the Thompson steelhead.Food fishery - my rear end, they eat at McDonalds like the rest of us. Ceremonial? just as outrageous. Let some interested Canadians witness this ceremony with the aid of video cameras. It's all about vast quantities of fish being sold as it has been for decades. We didn't notice it or care about it until the sockeye sportfishery started in the river. We can scream and howl all we want,it will achieve nothing. We are held at bay by a small number of aggressive people that the government is afraid of. We can say what we like about the americans, but they wouldn't put up with this crap...........just the same, when they want our water, they will come and get it.
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Why not just allow FN the right to sell, but monitor it. Tax them. Jeez, I think I'm saying why don't me just make them part of the commercial fleet. Those non-FN commercial boat who want to get out can be bought out by FN. I'm sure the government could subsidize these cost through trade offs included in treaty negotiations. :-\
Hope I'm not casting any less good ideas :P But then what's wrong with a few rebel rouser's? ;D
first nations have been fighting for self government for decades...they'll 'take' whatever they can get, but they rarely 'give' because they feel they've been victimized and oppressed for too long.....it's the neverending story. :( :(
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One day in the very near future, this very resource will be depleted and the finger pointing will start.
Not if we continue to fight for the survival of these fish. If we take a defeated attitude this could happen but the recent awarness that the publichas seen with the recent stories in the print press, radio, and the TV media I think the public is seeing things in a different light, more than ever before. Sure there is doubters among the public that things will never change and hey there is even some on this and otherfishing web sites that think this and post about it but I believe they are in the minority just like the Federal Liberals are. Also do not forget the Federal Government is following this with keen interest, more than ever before.
The work the SDA and others did last year has brought some great changes to enforcement this year maybe not perfect but we are getting there. Some people have been put in jail, boats and nets seized and are locked up at this moment.
We must keep working at it to save this resource for all and as I have said a few times, when I have made my last cast I will know I will have done everything possible to the best of my ability to make this happen. I challenge those that read this post to attempt to do the same, thanks.
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The bright spot was seeing an rec angler enjoying fishing for pike minnows as the sun was setting. He called them white fish and was going to make some type of soup with them. I believe I have a picture that Rodney may post.
Keep forgetting this. Posting to avoid more phone heckling. ;D ;D ;D
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/album35/DSCF0100_001.jpg)
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Thanks Rodney, one of my better shots with my new, old camera. ;D ;D
The brightest observation of the whole day I might add.
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After reading all posts, and thinking about this for some time (and not just now but in past as well), I thought that I could give out few of my thoughts which all people who are interested in conservation maybe will find usefull maybe just a waste of time, but any way, here they are:
1. Fact: all commercial and portion of FN fishing is there because some people are making profit and they want to keep making it.
Solution: Make fishing unprofitable.
How: You either overfish (no resources), or offer a solution to the interested sides by which they would make more money doing something else or offer their product at a lower price to the point it isn't profitable for them any more to do what they are doing.
One of the things I thought it could be usefull to have is a project under government funding (so it is easier to start) to invest in farming of Sockeye/Coho/Chinook salmon. I know many people will think I am not informed about farming pollution, but I read a lot about it and am still not educated enough about it to make a statement that a farm would pollute/kill more fish than FN/commercial nets. Right now it looks we are having a problem, and maybe this would be a new problem, but if farmed fish is so low in price and so available, and gas prices keep going up, it is going to become very expensive to fish by boats and they will not be able to sell their fish. In this case they will maybe still fish for food and ceremonial purposes, and commercials will even stop working all together. This could create a situation where many of these boat owners will convert to sport fishing guides and get big rich people from all around world to come here, fish, and spend even more money = more profit for current fishing people. These rich people will want higher standards, cleaner rivers, bigger abundance of fish, ... what will force everybody to take more care of the resource.
Another thing was to maybe give FN some special guiding permits in the areas where they take a special care of the resource as they own so much of river shore line. That way they would take more care of fish as it would mean again more money. This should go with education as well, where we should show to people that you make much more money per pound of fish in a guide service than in selling fish on the street.
Third, government should really make harder to get any fishing licenses. From commercial to recreational. I do not know why they issue me a license without making me to pass a test. I know money is an issue, but if they want to keep resources afloat (or better said in the water) they have to play harder as well.
2. Make public much more aware through TV/newspaper/local community/clubs/... adds/marketing. Tell them that every time they buy an illegally caught fish they are telling their kids it is OK to steal as well, or to kill an animal just because we can do it.
3. I am not having a legal background and have no idea if it is possible in Canada or not, but through news I follow work of war crime tribunal in Hague and they are prosecuting some of people because they knew about atrocities being committed, they had a power to stop them, but they didn't do anything. All ministers/DFO officers/managers, RCMP, ... who know about a crime (and I do not care how "big" it is, a crime is a crime), have a power of stooping it but they do not do it, could they be charged in the court as well?
good luck
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Rod & Chirs, wonderful stories from the two 'rare gems' of sport fishing community. Keep up the good work. Your work proves that DFO is really just a political organization. Intimidated & harrassed by FN, now their only option left is appeasement. Lots of empty words and token decrees. I don't know why such noble & unselfish deeds of yours deserve some unkind comments. It is quite clear that you are just trying to expose the problems with FN openings - no monitoring and rules are not followed so there is no way to control how many fish were taken. Thank you for voicing your concern straight from your heart. That is sincerity, man. I applaud. :D
If some one wants to play down such a selfless work of yours, and siezes it as another chance to attack BBers and want to start another ethics war, I can volunteer my time on your behalf. You two can do the more important work on behalf of the fish and the sporties. For those who want to attack BBing unchecked, there is always the SCR site, where you can chant the anti-flossing slogans and every member there will hug you.
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I live in the interior and away from the turmoil of fisheries openings on the Fraser River. It's interesting reading all the posts and seeing how things are going on the "coast". Rodney....your post was very interesting and well done. I think we can all say wow...that is exactly what is happening. It's a shame things have to be that way....we need the government to wake up and legislate better management that "should" be fair to all and most of all conserve our natural resouces before they are a thing of the past. Well done. I'll keep reading..... I sure hope things turn around, before it's too late...
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Rod & Chirs, wonderful stories from the two 'rare gems' of sport fishing community. Keep up the good work. Your work proves that DFO is really just a political organization. Intimidated & harrassed by FN, now their only option left is appeasement. Lots of empty words and token decrees. I don't know why such noble & unselfish deeds of yours deserve some unkind comments. It is quite clear that you are just trying to expose the problems with FN openings - no monitoring and rules are not followed so there is no way to control how many fish were taken. Thank you for voicing your concern straight from your heart. That is sincerity, man. I applaud. :D
If some one wants to play down such a selfless work of yours, and siezes it as another chance to attack BBers and want to start another ethics war, I can volunteer my time on your behalf. You two can do the more important work on behalf of the fish and the sporties. For those who want to attack BBing unchecked, there is always the SCR site, where you can chant the anti-flossing slogans and every member there will hug you.
Question to you funfish and you're only allowed a yes or no answer. Will you angle the Fraser BB syle in 2007?
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Sorry Bantam, no one can dictate how I answer a question ever, you included. If you are sincere about a honest answer, I will BB all the days of my useful life as long as the fish stock is abundant & DFO opens it for harvest by means of flossing. You and your anti-flossing gangs can lobby the government to close us down. Good luck for trying. Minority never wins in a free country. If you are really that passionate to protect your pet fish, go after them big boys. Spend your time lobbying the government to limit FN's harvest and to monitor their catch, like Chris & Rod are doing (which you seem to be not very appreciative). The socs will thank you more.
If it is ethics you are debating, there have been enough debates on this site and FishBC to fill an encyclopedia. No worth my time, hopefully yours too. In the end, as long as legally allowed, those who wish to floss, floss. Those wish not to floss, do something else.
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Good job Rod, Nina and Chris. Resource management especially around the fish issue gets my blood boiling - and its nice to see three well spoken and logical people are out there on the front lines doing the best that they can. Its a mighty good thing that I am not PM of this country, because if this kind of abuse were to continue, the Comox based CF18's would be a lot busier than they are now.
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Sorry Bantam, no one can dictate how I answer a question ever, you included. If you are sincere about a honest answer, I will BB all the days of my useful life as long as the fish stock is abundant & DFO opens it for harvest by means of flossing. You and your anti-flossing gangs can lobby the government to close us down. Good luck for trying. Minority never wins in a free country. If you are really that passionate to protect your pet fish, go after them big boys. Spend your time lobbying the government to limit FN's harvest and to monitor their catch, like Chris & Rod are doing (which you seem to be not very appreciative). The socs will thank you more.
If it is ethics you are debating, there have been enough debates on this site and FishBC to fill an encyclopedia. No worth my time, hopefully yours too. In the end, as long as legally allowed, those who wish to floss, floss. Those wish not to floss, do something else.
(http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/2.gif)
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maybe we need to start "peacefully" blockading boat launches and marinas during FN openings.
blockades are an FN tactic that has never been reversed on them around these parts.
i'd wear some kevlar though :D
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:o sounds like a good idea no need for kavlar theres more of us than them. but bring it just in case :o
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I hope you don't mind but I printed your pic from Aug 20, it is something I would like as a example of an excellent end to a good day
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Sorry Bantam, no one can dictate how I answer a question ever, you included.
LOL ... if so why'd you reply? ;D
And I'll take that as a yes. Which I presumed. ::) Nice to hear you'd be back flossing whatever :-\ sockeye return we get from the totally devastated run of last year. Good to know where your priorities ly.
You and your anti-flossing gangs
Funny how you're an expert at judging someone you don't know nothing about. Care to prove I'm an anti-flosser? Could we state Chris is an anti-flosser also?
Minority never wins in a free country.
Currently the FN and especially the Cheam have you and a few others reconsidering that. :P
If you are really that passionate to protect your pet fish, go after them big boys. Spend your time lobbying the government to limit FN's harvest and to monitor their catch, like Chris & Rod are doing (which you seem to be not very appreciative). The socs will thank you more.
If you knew me you'd feel silly making that statement ... :D I find it odd how someones questions and/or views of a post, suddenly become criticism if they're not marching to the same drum here. If you or they feel it's criticism ... ::) *shrug* ::) ... oh well.
If it is ethics you are debating, there have been enough debates on this site and FishBC to fill an encyclopedia. No worth my time, hopefully yours too. In the end, as long as legally allowed, those who wish to floss, floss. Those wish not to floss, do something else.
I've learned to avoid trying to make a rock bleed. But I've been known to convert a Beek or 2. :D ;D :D
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Bantam, if the 2007 year return is not abundant enough, DFO will not open it, and sockeye fishers will not target them. Don't worry about me. I am law abiding & I only have a hook & a rod. Unfortunately, the only people allowed to fish is probably FN, your beloved group who you seem to defend whatever fishing practices they like to do because you think they deserve their 'food' fish when every one else know it is their '$$$' fish they are going after.
I hope you worry more about what they will do to the socs in 2007, and put your effort into stopping DFO's madness to allow FN drift-neting the Fraser. Spend your time with the real culprits who are wiping out 10s of thousands of your pet fish dialy. You are the kind of guy who like to rant and pick on other people's peaceful reportings, as if they know nothing and you know everying. If you are so passionate about the cause of sockeye conservation, you deal with the big boys. Do something like Rod & Chris had done, or organize a protest against what FN is doing to the fish stock. That is more meaningful to save fish stock than spending time trying to bash forum members, including Rod, as if you are the only one with conservation of sockeyes in mind.
I was at the bars instructing newbies to avoid socs, or to land & release sockeye properly, and yelling at guys who tried to bonk socs while fighting a spring. You can explain to forum members what meaningful things you have done for socs except bashing & trashing people on this forum.
Every one is entitled to one's preferred method to fish the Fraser legally. Whether he/she is considered anti-flossing is judged by the intent to trash & to bash BBers' preferred method to fish the Fraser. In that regard, Chris is quite a gentleman. He does it by persuasion, not derogatory comments or name-callings like some individuals like to do. I exhort all to respect others' fishing preferrences as long as it is accepted by DFO so that fishing forums do not become a battle zone for zealots & demagogues. A good fishing forum is a place where info & experiences can be shared in an open, friendly, helpful, unbiased, and inclusive manner. I think FWR has managed to do just that. Applaud the mods. :)
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I hope you don't mind but I printed your pic from Aug 20, it is something I would like as a example of an excellent end to a good day
Thats fine, buy me a Tim's coffee one day. ;D ;D
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Batman i think you need to stop crying about your anti flossing position why dont you just go and try to stop every fisherman on every bar on the fraser then i might care about your opinion.
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Ya, for that matter the entire SCR membership should be out there. There fanatic inclination to stop us BBers should not be just on internet. I like to see them there to stage demonstrations so we can see how they number compared to sockeye fishermen. Be sure to call in RCMP or the ambulances just in case..... ;D
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Just wondering if any of you guys have read following article, it is from web page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4181652.stm
source: bbc web site, August 24, 2005
New plan targets illegal fishing
by Richard Black
BBC News website environment correspondent
A coalition of environmental and development agencies has launched a new
programme which aims to stem the loss of fish stocks worldwide.
The Profish programme will compile a global list of illegal fishing vessels,
promote sustainable aquaculture and help protect marine reserves.
It could also reduce the extent of legal fishing by European boats in
African waters.
Profish was launched at the Fish for All Summit in Abuja, Nigeria.
Costly haul
There are no reliable global estimates either for the economic value of
illegal fishing, or for the amount of environmental damage it does.
Small-scale fishing is causing extensive ecological damage, by harming coral
reefs and spawning grounds.
Warren Evans, World Bank
But there is general agreement at government level that it is a serious
issue, which is why the Council of the United Nations Food and Agriculture
Organisation (FAO) adopted in 2001 the International Plan of Action to
Prevent, Deter and Eliminate Illegal, Unreported and Unregulated Fishing.
The logic behind Profish is that information is key to reducing the impact
and extent of illegal activities.
"There has been considerable work over the last few years to track illegal
fishing," the World Bank's Director of Environment Warren Evans told the BBC
News website.
"Although large vessels receive a lot of attention, in fact small-scale
operations at local level are causing extensive ecological damage, by
harming coral reefs, spawning grounds and so on; basically these boats
exploit every stock they can."
Illegal list
The process of compiling the rogues' register will be led by IUCN, the World
Conservation Union, which joins the World Bank, FAO, and other conservation
bodies in launching Profish, with an initial investment of just over US$1m
from Iceland, France, Norway, Finland and the World Bank's development
facility.
Profish will also develop a "small-scale fisheries toolkit", which will show
fishing communities how to manage stocks in a sustainable yet profitable
way.
It also aims to develop estimates of "resource rent loss" for developing
countries - the amounts of money they are losing by not managing fisheries
for sustained production.
Dwindling resource
Fish provides 22% of the protein intake in sub-Saharan Africa. This share,
however, can exceed 50% in the poorest countries ..."
WorldFish Center
Fish is a vital food in many parts of Africa, and in other developing
countries, supplying protein and micronutrients such as zinc, calcium and
vitamin A.
But at the opening of the Abuja conference, held under the auspices of the
New Partnership for African Development (Nepad), the research organisation
WorldFish Center warned that stocks in Africa are being depleted rapidly,
with the availability of fish as a food within the continent declining.
A 20% increase in fish farming, it said, would be needed to maintain
consumption at current levels.
Challenging subsidies?
Among environment and development groups, there is concern at the quantities
of fish which vessels from developed nations, especially those belonging to
the European Union, are catching legally in African coastal waters.
Off the coast of west Africa, the annual catch of EU boats increased 20-fold
between 1950 and 2001, alongside rising levels of subsidy from European
governments.
"Profish may be relevant to this issue," acknowledged Warren Evans.
"It may be that European nations will have to look at their levels of
subsidy."
The first tranche of Profish activities, including the database of illegal
vessels, should be up and running within three years.
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Hmm, can we stop the personal attacks towards Bantam please? He does have a right to express his thoughts, but I wish people don't go off the topic and start discussing their views on the recreational sockeye fishery. This thread is intended to report my observations on the day when we went out, and express our thoughts on the numbers that seem to be questionable, and develop ideas and better understandings so the system can actually improve.
I have not had a chance to go over most posts in this thread and many emails regarding this, will do that slowly over this weekend. By next week, I should have some answers provided by DFO to some of those questions/concerns I addressed in the original post.