Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: fic on August 12, 2023, 01:25:23 PM
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So today I stopped by Cates Park on my way home with a fishing rod and waders on. A City of North Vancouver Park Ranger in uniform and driving a City truck told me you can only fish from a boat at Cates Park. You're not allowed to fish on the shore nor the dock. Is there such a by-law? I am trying to google it, but I can't seem to find it.
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This?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/d70w7/33569566413
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It used to be just the dock. Maybe that has changed I don't know.
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This?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/d70w7/33569566413
This to me means no fishing from the Dock. Weird that you can't stand in the water cast your line. City of North Vancouver has jurisdiction over land covered by tide water?
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This to me means no fishing from the Dock. Weird that you can't stand in the water cast your line. City of North Vancouver has jurisdiction over land covered by tide water?
There was some ambiguity around ambleside fishing as well and it was addressed on pacific angler's video - https://youtu.be/04yXJxMFDsA?t=525
Matt mentions that the tidal water portion is DFO and not the city, although there are some exceptions............I really do wish it was not complicated for people to enjoy outdoors......
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This to me means no fishing from the Dock. Weird that you can't stand in the water cast your line. City of North Vancouver has jurisdiction over land covered by tide water?
Good point. I once called the City of Surrey to report a mattress that was on the beach in a city park, and they said that the beach was provincial crown land, not city land.
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Looking at the picture of the sign, those signs usually have the bylaw number printed on them, and this sign does not.
The District of North Vancouver has the "Park Regulation Bylaw" #8310 section 2.8 (e) "fish for, harvest or otherwise capture shellfish in a Park, except in areas designated by Posted Signs and in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations" which would apply to crabs but not fin fish and only above the high tide mark.
There is also the "Wharf and Anchor Regulation" ( https://www.dnv.org/bylaws/wharf-and-anchor-regulation (https://www.dnv.org/bylaws/wharf-and-anchor-regulation) ) bylaw #8450 section 4 (d) which states "No person shall engage in any fishing or crabbing at or from any wharf or in any waterlot area, except that such activities may be undertaken in designated areas at Cates Park Wharf from October 17 to April 15 in any year in accordance with posted notices." The only waterlot area listed in Schedule B at the bottom of the bylaw is Deep Cove.
Which means there is no bylaw against fishing off the beach at Cates Park.
You would think the park rangers would know the law...
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I sent an email to the District of North Vancouver about this issue. I will post their response.
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Any land below the high water mark is considered as public land. The picture with the sign would suggest to me they are referring to the dock only.
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I just learned what a waterlot is. It's "A legally defined area of land covered by water which may be either contiguous or attached to dry land, or may be separated entirely from dry land; may be filled, partially filled, or not filled; or a piece of land normally covered with water at high tide."
For example the whole of Deep Cove is a waterlot administered (not owned) by the District of North Vancouver. The DNV can make bylaws covering the waterlot. The bylaw listed above says no fishing or crabbing in waterlots and therefore there is no fishing or crabbing allowed in Deep Cove by boat or from shore.
The ocean at Cates Park is not listed in the bylaw as a waterlot and therefore the DNV has no control over anything beyond the high tide line.
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I think it's best it's best to wait until the City clarifies the situation and no one relies on assumptions. The bylaw was passed in June 2021 and the info may not be widely known by the public. Potential fine is $150. If a Park Ranger told me I can't fish there I'd take their word on it.
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Yep that fear is exactly what they want Ralph. Unless that park ranger really is a total dumbass, someone at the DNV has ordered him to go and lie and threaten the public when they know they can't back it up in court. I guess it's easier and cheaper then applying to the feds to get a waterlot lease for the ocean around the Cates Park wharf. Hell, they might even make some money by lying.
And I would be very surprised if fic gets a response from the district in time for the end of pink season. They will just give out tickets and hope people don't take them to court. Even if the odd person does win in court, just the threat of having to contest a ticket is enough to close yet another fishery.
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OK i just called the DNV bylaw office and they have forwarded fic's email to the park wardens. Apparently they will be responding to it sometime tomorrow.
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Yep that fear is exactly what they want Ralph. Unless that park ranger really is a total dumbass, someone at the DNV has ordered him to go and lie and threaten the public when they know they can't back it up in court. I guess it's easier and cheaper then applying to the feds to get a waterlot lease for the ocean around the Cates Park wharf. Hell, they might even make some money by lying.
And I would be very surprised if fic gets a response from the district in time for the end of pink season. They will just give out tickets and hope people don't take them to court. Even if the odd person does win in court, just the threat of having to contest a ticket is enough to close yet another fishery.
Is that you John Wayne?
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Awww Rhalphie you're so cute <3
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Hey I just said what I'd do. Other folks can do it different & start a confrontation if they want. Some people seem to be wired up that way.
Cheers
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i lived in deep cove untill 2019. 40 yrs. fished pinks in cates when they showed up and the no fishing sign is only for the dock. also the city has no power in cates as its district of n.van land.(with local band) . the best time for pinks is high tide droping early morning also last hour of daylight can be good. from the local reports i have read i would be surprised if cates is very productive this year.
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i lived in deep cove untill 2019. 40 yrs. fished pinks in cates when they showed up and the no fishing sign is only for the dock. also the city has no power in cates as its district of n.van land.(with local band) . the best time for pinks is high tide droping early morning also last hour of daylight can be good. from the local reports i have read i would be surprised if cates is very productive this year.
If fishing is not permitted on the dock during the closure, cant i just float around in my kayak in front of the dock?😂
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If fishing is not permitted on the dock during the closure, cant i just float around in my kayak in front of the dock?😂
I got a response from the Front Desk Receptionist who says the Ranger is correct and said "Fishing is not allowed in DNV parks". The Ranger said you can fish from a Boat which means your Kayak is ok.
But the dumb thing is what's the difference between casting my line in a kayak and casting while I am standing in the water? The Kayak and I can literally hover on the same piece of sand.
Until somebody gets fined and challenge the ticket in court, I can't see this ambiguity resolved.
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i wonder when that law came in? must check seymour river cap, river for parks must be some.
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I knew they would say that. I think the point is that the park ends at the high water mark. Saying "no fishing in parks", which may be true, is a cop out and does not address the issue of fishing from the beach. I guess if you were standing on the grass they could ticket you. It's the same thing as Ambleside.
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Cap is a regional park and not administered by the DNV. Metro Vancouver Regional Parks allow fishing.
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A few years ago I went to an event at the Maplewood conservation area. Aa friend from high school had published a book about the squatters community that was formed there in the 70s ( among other things) and was giving a reading there. I had fished that beach a few decades before for cutthroat (never caught anything) but when I drove into the park, at the entrance, I noticed a prominent sign that said fishing was not allowed in the conservation area. I also know that some parts of the seawall in Stanley park are no fishing. In that case I know that came about because of conflicts between fishers and people using the walkway. At Ambleside you can access the beach without going through the park so that may make a difference there. We are losing fishing access. Much of the dykes on the Serpentine and Nicomekl Rivers in Surrey have been posted as no trespassing. In some cases the dykes are blocked by high chain link fences. The dykes were built and maintained by the city with public money , perhaps including funding from the Province and Federal Governments. Why should access be denied? It's getting to be a problem but what to do about it?
In North Vancouver when the city looked at the issue did they canvass the local fishing community? Were there public hearings? In many cases we've been able to scoot across private land without problem at some locations but will that continue?
During the sockeye opening late last summer CN and CP Police ticketed people crossing the tracks at uncontrolled areas. Again this was largely because some people were playing fast and loose crossing the tracks when trains were on the tracks. A lot of these trouble are often due to the bad behavior of a few idiots.
This summer at Lightning Lakes I saw a guy fishing at the swimming beach when people were in the water. He actually snagged a swimmer! Fortunately it was a member of his party and she was caught in the back of her swim suit. Still I am sure most can see the point of that story.
As i said what can we do about it? One little thing is to respect other people space and right to use the resource at the same time we do.
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LOL There is no bylaw against walking through a park carrying your fishing gear.
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well why don't you go to Cates, carry your fishing gear past a Park ranger and try your theory out.
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Or maybe you could show me the law that says I'm not allowed to carry fishing gear through a park... but you cant, right? Stop making stuff up to scare people Ralph.
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Huh? I didn't say anything about such a law.
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I'm done responding to you Ralph. The passive/aggressive BS is too much.
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Nothing will change or be resolved until someone volunteers to get a ticket and go thru the process/precedent. Personally I'd consider it my civic duty to standup to blind bureaucrats; but I live in richmond so my hands are rather full at the moment.
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I'm done responding to you Ralph. The passive/aggressive BS is too much.
Thank goodness for that! Best news i have had in days!
Nothing will change or be resolved until someone volunteers to get a ticket and go thru the process/precedent. Personally I'd consider it my civil duty to standup to blind bureaucrats;
I don't live there either neither do I have intention to go fish there. I also think that the Mayor and Council would be more interested in what residents of have to say.
It also wouldn't hurt to ask them if the inter-tidal zone of Cates Park is a water lot administered by DNV or how otherwise they can restrict anglers fishing from the inter-tidal zone.
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when local politicians look to restrict the right to fish they should also be forced to consider the Provincial "Hunting and Fishing Heritage Act" of 2002 which basically has one meaningful sentence:
Right to hunt and fish
1 A person has the right to hunt and fish in accordance with the law.
https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/00_02079_01a/search/CIVIX_DOCUMENT_ROOT_STEM:(right%20to%20sport%20fish)%20AND%20CIVIX_DOCUMENT_ANCESTORS:statreg?3#hit1
I'd also point out that the regulation of hunting and fishing are the concerns of the Provincial and Federal Governments (as appropriate)
Local governments are creatures of the Province. They are literally created and can be eliminated at the whim of the Provincial Government. Can their laws contradict the laws of the Province?
Is the denial of that right beyond the power of regional governments?
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This would be an excellent video for Rod to do. With his great reputation he could actually win this for fishermen.
when local politicians look to restrict the right to fish they should also be forced to consider the Provincial "Hunting and Fishing Heritage Act" of 2002 which basically has one meaningful sentence:
Right to hunt and fish
1 A person has the right to hunt and fish in accordance with the law.
https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/00_02079_01a/search/CIVIX_DOCUMENT_ROOT_STEM:(right%20to%20sport%20fish)%20AND%20CIVIX_DOCUMENT_ANCESTORS:statreg?3#hit1
I'd also point out that the regulation of hunting and fishing are the concerns of the Provincial and Federal Governments (as appropriate)
Local governments are creatures of the Province. They are literally created and can be eliminated at the whim of the Provincial Government. Can their laws contradict the laws of the Province?
Is the denial of that right beyond the power of regional governments?
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I am sorry but this is just silly. Why can't you fish at a local park... Its the tax payers right to fish is it not. Silly... Lets just keep everyone home playing playstation fishing and not get out side.
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So I sent a detailed email to the DNV, I wont print it here but I did my best approximation of legalese. I will print the response I got:
(From) Michael MacFarlane <MacFarlaneM@dnv.org>
Good morning Rod, rangers generally only do enforcement at the wharf as I agree the jurisdiction only applies to chattel and the wharf. The team generally warns the public that fishing this time of the year can be hazardous as we have many young kids that swim at our beaches. To date no tickets have been issued. I will speak to the staff regarding giving out the appropriate information
Kind regards, Michael Macfarlane
I think what this means is that it is permitted to fish below the high water mark at Cates Park. I agree with Mr. MacFarlane that any conflict with swimmers would be very unfortunate. And of course the dock is still off limits this time of year.
So... behave well and we get to keep our fishery at Cates.
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Nicely done! All's well that ends well.
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So I sent a detailed email to the DNV, I wont print it here but I did my best approximation of legalese. I will print the response I got:
(From) Michael MacFarlane <MacFarlaneM@dnv.org>
Good morning Rod, rangers generally only do enforcement at the wharf as I agree the jurisdiction only applies to chattel and the wharf. The team generally warns the public that fishing this time of the year can be hazardous as we have many young kids that swim at our beaches. To date no tickets have been issued. I will speak to the staff regarding giving out the appropriate information
Kind regards, Michael Macfarlane
I think what this means is that it is permitted to fish below the high water mark at Cates Park. I agree with Mr. MacFarlane that any conflict with swimmers would be very unfortunate. And of course the dock is still off limits this time of year.
So... behave well and we get to keep our fishery at Cates.
Great Info. Thanks for talking to the correct person and reaching the clarification. I would never cast my line with people swimming around.
I have seen youtube videos of Pier Anglers hooking swimmers and boarders below because there is just too many people in certain areas.
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This..
Good morning Rod, rangers generally only do enforcement at the wharf as I agree the jurisdiction only applies to chattel and the wharf. The team generally warns the public that fishing this time of the year can be hazardous as we have many young kids that swim at our beaches. To date no tickets have been issued. I will speak to the staff regarding giving out the appropriate information
Seems much more reasonable than this…
Yep that fear is exactly what they want Ralph. Unless that park ranger really is a total dumbass, someone at the DNV has ordered him to go and lie and threaten the public when they know they can't back it up in court. I guess it's easier and cheaper then applying to the feds to get a waterlot lease for the ocean around the Cates Park wharf. Hell, they might even make some money by lying.
And I would be very surprised if fic gets a response from the district in time for the end of pink season. They will just give out tickets and hope people don't take them to court. Even if the odd person does win in court, just the threat of having to contest a ticket is enough to close yet another fishery.
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Yes I suppose you're right, it's a bit of a rant. I do get triggered when people refuse to fight an injustice.
But... you do have to ask yourself why the rangers started threatening people with tickets this year when there has never been a problem before and the bylaws haven't changed. Simple ignorance? Maybe. But isn't it the responsibility of the rangers to know the bylaws ? Then the ranger's office replied to fic's email by saying "no fishing in parks." Hell we were talking about who would go and take the first ticket. All this effectively meant the Cates fishery was shut down because people were in fear of getting a ticket. Isn't that what the rangers wanted?
Most of the rangers must have been around for awhile and would know that tickets had never been given out before. Did they just forget? Or maybe some one higher up the food chain at the DNV recently suggested that the rangers discourage fishing at Cates. Maybe. Either way as the DNV bylaw ticket adjudicator, Mr. MacFarlane has to stick to the letter of the law, and was quite reasonable even if the rangers were not.
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well the second response you chose, to get a second more reasoned opinion was the best one. Apparently Mr MacFarlane is one of the team leaders of the Park Rangers.
I found an article from the DNV website about the group:
On a sunny day in May, a fast-acting DNV Parks Ranger helped to rescue a man clinging to a boulder in the rushing waters in Lynn Canyon before he was swept over a steep waterfall.
appears they handle a wide variety of challenges & perhaps aren't dumb asses at all.
https://www.dnv.org/dnv-stories/day-life-dnv-parks-ranger
(https://www.dnv.org/dnv-stories/day-life-dnv-parks-ranger)
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Yes I suppose you're right, it's a bit of a rant. I do get triggered when people refuse to fight an injustice.
But... you do have to ask yourself why the rangers started threatening people with tickets this year
Nothing wrong with a good ol’ fashioned rant, but it’s also important , I suggest, to be factual and not resort to exaggeration or hyperbole. Unless you’ve talked to other anglers, fic didn’t mention threats of tickets.
Good on you, though, for being persistent in going to the appropriate level and getting a response.