Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on December 15, 2020, 04:44:21 PM
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https://www.interior-news.com/news/fishing-code-of-conduct-being-finalized-for-haida-gwaii
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Is there a link to the whole thing? I can't seem to find it in this article. Very interesting to ban catch and release on Haida Gwaii, I wonder what impact it will have on the true giant (45lb+) Chinooks.
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https://www.interior-news.com/news/fishing-code-of-conduct-being-finalized-for-haida-gwaii
my security software flags that link as hazardous.
Don't think those 45lb plus chinook are getting any bigger if they are released.
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Wow! Banning of catch and release fishing. The natives don’t like “playing with your food” and consider that practice unethical! :o Wonder how that is going to affect the fishing lodges?
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Hida is surrounded by lodges. Guys catch their limits in the first 2 mins of being there and then spend the next 10 hours catching and releasing fish.
Corporate catch and release trips to these lodges have gain in popularity and the lodges have spent the last 10 years promoting catch and release and even provided prizes for releasing tyee size fish.
Going to be lots of push back but I’m sure they will Agree as they really can’t operate those lodges without First Nation support.
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my security software flags that link as hazardous.
The link Rod provided works fine, I'm wondering if there is a link to the actual so called, "code of conduct" and not just an article talking about it
Don't think those 45lb plus chinook are getting any bigger if they are released.
Pretty sure any fish that weighs more than 45lbs had to, at some point, weigh 45lbs. Or do they just magically appear??
Thanks for the helpful reply Ralph /s
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The link Rod provided works fine, I'm wondering if there is a link to the actual so called, "code of conduct" and not just an article talking about it
Pretty sure any fish that weighs more than 45lbs had to, at some point, weigh 45lbs. Or do they just magically appear??
Thanks for the helpful reply Ralph /s
sorry but I don't think that a fish 45lbs or more that is returning to it's natal stream following a short stop in waters off Haida Gwaii are putting on much more weight...that was the meaning of my statement. Wasn't sure what your meaning was. You think all the fish that size caught there get released?
Some of the guides up there have already adopted the practice - once you catch your limit of salmon you can fish for something else or beach combing, exploring etc.
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sorry but I don't think that a fish 45lbs or more that is returning to it's natal stream following a short stop in waters off Haida Gwaii are putting on much more weight...that was the meaning of my statement. Wasn't sure what your meaning was. You think all the fish that size caught there get released?
Some of the guides up there have already adopted the practice - once you catch your limit of salmon you can fish for something else or beach combing, exploring etc.
A ban on c&r will make it illegal to release a giant fish, something that many (but not all) view as the right thing to do. I am wondering how this will effect the amount of big fish that get to spawn.
Obviously c&r has some level of mortality, maybe this will reduce the amount of overplayed/dead fish that end up being released.
Just wondering other’s opinions on this. Maybe it will be a good thing overall for the fishery, maybe not.
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here is an alternative source of the story that passes my web browser "sniff" test
https://www.wellandtribune.ca/ts/news/canada/2020/12/14/fishing-code-of-conduct-being-finalized-for-haida-gwaii.html
the original error message was that the https security certificate is not signed by a recognized third party...much like this site which isn't https certified.
According to the link above "The Haida Nation does not support using catch-and-release to fish for entertainment...refraining from targeting the largest fish...take only what you need".
Seems to me this code does not exclude releasing fish where it's mandated by law or where an individual angler releases fish for conservation reasons -such as not targeting the largest fish but I guess that's arguable.
Without some form of censure, codes of ethics or conduct are more or less useless IMO. If you read the Angling ethics listed in the Provincial Synopsis it's not hard to realize most anglers don't even know about it let alone follow it in any form. Those suggestions also include "limit your harvest to your needs" and "limit catch and release".
The popularization of catch and release was originally intended to benefit the fish and in the long run anglers but was not intended to extend the fishing time or daily catch possibility for anglers. Staying on the water the entire day catching as many fish as could possibly be done was not part of the idea.
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I'd support a ban on C&R salmon fishing (with fine details to be worked out to account for "largest fish" scenarios).
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Hyprocrisy Re-defined
Where does it end? The business of playing with our food is wearing thin. Have any of the Haida been to Witset on the Bulkley to witness the abuse steelhead (and sockeye and coho) are subjected to courtesy of their Wet’suwet’en neighbours whom we pay handsomely to conduct what is sold as stock assessment? Why aren’t the Haida recommending all those regulations pertaining to FN fisheries along the Fraser (i.e catch and release for gill net caught specimens of multiple endangered species) be replaced by closures? After all, the recreational fisheries are closed. Why is conservation applicable to one user group but not another?
When are we going to see the governments we elected stand up and represent all of us instead of conferring special status to a minority who don’t own public resources? Enough is enough!
http://steelheadvoices.com/?p=2300
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"Where does it end? The business of playing with our food is wearing thin. Have any of the Haida been to Witset on the Bulkley to witness the abuse steelhead (and sockeye and coho) are subjected to courtesy of their Wet’suwet’en neighbours whom we pay handsomely to conduct what is sold as stock assessment? Why aren’t the Haida recommending all those regulations pertaining to FN fisheries along the Fraser (i.e catch and release for gill net caught specimens of multiple endangered species) be replaced by closures? After all, the recreational fisheries are closed. Why is conservation applicable to one user group but not another?"
It's okay to try to fix part of the problem without fixing the entire problem at once. The article Nog linked is an excellent example of a debate tactic called Whataboutism: "... attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
A more honest way to think about the issue might be "If all of the measures proposed in that article were implemented, would I support closing C&R salmon fishing in Haida Gwaii?"
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whataboutism - it's very similar to the argument that FN communities don't deserve any special rights or privileges because before the blessed English came here and gave them the Kings Law, the Kings religion and the Kings speech they practiced slavery meanwhile forgetting so did the blessed English and Canadians at the time.
Opposition to "catch and release" isn't a FN universal value. It seems to be one big with elders and traditionalists but I have certainly met FN sports anglers who release fish they don't want. HG was also one of the first locales to go completely c&r on wild steelhead largely on local initiatives and I would bet some sizable segment of the local Haida community agreed with that.
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To just chalk it IronNoggin's post to "whataboutism" does it a disservice. The article is asking a very specific question. How, in the exact same water, catching the exact same fish, can C&R be praised in one sector and reviled in another? It is a legtimate question. But one that will never be answered. Similar to the assertion that C&R of large breeding halibut has dire consequences but the killing and processing of them by the commercial fleet doesn't. Some of life's greatest mysteries.
As far as the code of conduct goes; it is more or less an attempt to throw a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. Stocks are declining. They have been for years but in the last 15 they have collapsed. Handing control over to First Nations won't reverse that; it will shift the blame though, and cause major fighting among the various bands (issues between Upper and lower Fraser Bands are already becoming heated) and I guess that may be the end game itself. Until Canada wants to actually address the issues facing salmon; enact real change, this will accomplish nothing.
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I could be wrong and stand to be corrected but I believe that the Haida pursued this policy when they took over west coast resorts ( which they closed in 2019 ... I don't know the details surrounding why they closed but i am not at all surprised as the Fishing Lodge business is a big money business with a ton of variables that can be beyond your control).
The idea that you would have to completely stop fishing if you hit your limits of fish you got to the boat seems to be extremely short sighted. What happens if you land 4 pinks when targeting Spring? At times the pink /coho are pretty thick and suicidal on lures etc. What happens when you catch your limit in 30 minutes? you go jig up every other possible species you can retain for the day? what happens to the sole/flounder/greenling/rockfish etc populations?What if you land a monster spring ? Take it out of the gene pool?( though as I understand it a monster sized spring doesn't necessarily make monster sized offspring ..for instance they could be natural triploids etc)
One of the things that has always made me shake my head about the Haidas attitude toward that area is that most of the stock along the west coast transit through that area during the year. Why do they assume its all of there's to manage and make decisions on?
They are also the people who took it upon them selves to dump 100 tonnes of iron sulfate into the ocean without approval from DFO in a attempt to "fertilize" the oceans.
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To just chalk it IronNoggin's post to "whataboutism" does it a disservice.
Uhuh.... But that is exactly what many here prefer to see & do.
Not at all surprised who followed that up as quickly as possible.
If anyone actually believes the article I posted to be simply "whataboutism", I strongly suggest you contact the Author. Bob Hooton doesn't hide behind a forum handle, and does indeed post contact information in the articles he posts (as he did again in the one cited above). I would be quite interested in the response provided to such criticism from a man who was a practicing and effective Registered Professional Biologist in this province when many of the critics here were struggling out of diapers.
As for the impacts upon the lodges - as most with open eyes understand, what the Haida are doing in this case is a direct and overt action to shut down Queen Charlotte Lodge (among others) with the blanket support of both the Feds and the Province.
Nog
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Very good IN - from whataboutism to diversion
http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/take-action/how-to-spot-10-classic-diversionary-tactics--and-not-get-diverted-20160526-gp4lhp.html
topped with the fallacy of the deferral to authority - we should listen to Mr Hooton because he is [insert authority or expertise credentials] a "REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL BIOLOGIST" [trumpet fanfare sounds and we all bow] so his word has more weight than ours and we need to shut up and listen!
Then of course you praise him for using his real name and not a forum handle but use a handle "a forum handle" yourself. I suppose Hooton's name is actually worth something whereas for the rest of us....
One thing that occurs to me is that the Bulkey River situation involves another FN group not the Haida.
Personally I'd like to know a little bit about this proposal before I play Chicken Little and proclaim the sky is falling. Oppostion to c&r is not new and it is not restricted to FN groups. Quite a number of anglers have voiced concerns about it for decades. In a lot of respects the practice has been abused by some guides and other parts of the Sport Fishing industry and could stand some scrutiny and re-thinking.
Uhuh.... But that is exactly what many here prefer to see & do.
Not at all surprised who followed that up as quickly as possible.
If anyone actually believes the article I posted to be simply "whataboutism", I strongly suggest you contact the Author. Bob Hooton doesn't hide behind a forum handle, and does indeed post contact information in the articles he posts (as he did again in the one cited above). I would be quite interested in the response provided to such criticism from a man who was a practicing and effective Registered Professional Biologist in this province when many of the critics here were struggling out of diapers.
As for the impacts upon the lodges - as most with open eyes understand, what the Haida are doing in this case is a direct and overt action to shut down Queen Charlotte Lodge (among others) with the blanket support of both the Feds and the Province.
Nog
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Personally i prefer to limit out and head home as soon a possible. Having a beer and cleaning fish is as much or more of a ritual for me then the fishing itself.
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Personally I'd like to know a little bit about this proposal before I play Chicken Little and proclaim the sky is falling. Oppostion to c&r is not new and it is not restricted to FN groups. Quite a number of anglers have voiced concerns about it for decades. In a lot of respects the practice has been abused by some guides and other parts of the Sport Fishing industry and could stand some scrutiny and re-thinking.
fair enough
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Exactly the answer I expected from you Ralphie Ol' Chap.
Keep up the "good" work Ol' Boy. (https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/ROFLMAO.gif)
https://www.haidanation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Statement-From-HCC-July-21-2020.pdf
Nog
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Exactly the answer I expected from you Ralphie Ol' Chap.
Keep up the "good" work Ol' Boy. (https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/ROFLMAO.gif)
https://www.haidanation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Statement-From-HCC-July-21-2020.pdf
Nog
next comes the ridicule. Predictable!
Is it QCL that was consistently in the news for allowing visitors to catch more than their legal bag limit among other things? The material in this link of course has nothing to do with the Code of Ethics discussion. Just another diversion
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The crux of the issue of why First Nations are largely against C@R is they see it as a way of circumventing the allocation policy.
If they took it to court i bet they win.
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The material in this link of course has nothing to do with the Code of Ethics discussion.
You don't think the Code of Ethics is a response for the way lodges are operating in the region? That the two are mutually exclusive?
What do you make of this statement?
"QCL has shown disregard for any fishing regulation or conservation measures, racking up more infractions
than any other operation. The ongoing carnage and waste by way of “catch and release” is taking its toll,
not only on every species of salmon, but also halibut and rock cod."
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Frankly it's not hard to understand why they are pissed with QCL
https://www.haidagwaiiobserver.com/local-news/queen-charlotte-lodge-fined-47500-for-oversized-halibut/
The luxury fishing resort at Naden Harbour will pay $47,500 after a guided guest kept an oversized halibut that the resort failed to track.
https://www.haidagwaiiobserver.com/news/queen-charlotte-lodge-to-pay-35000-for-illegal-fishing/
From the QCL freezers, officers seized about 750 lbs. of mishandled or mislabeled fish: 38 halibut, 28 chinook, 119 coho, six pink salmon, and a bag with 28 halibut filets.
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Frankly it's not hard to understand why they are pissed with QCL
https://www.haidagwaiiobserver.com/local-news/queen-charlotte-lodge-fined-47500-for-oversized-halibut/
https://www.haidagwaiiobserver.com/news/queen-charlotte-lodge-to-pay-35000-for-illegal-fishing/
That coverest the first part of this statement ""QCL has shown disregard for any fishing regulation or conservation measures, racking up more infractions
than any other operation. The ongoing carnage and waste by way of “catch and release” is taking its toll,
not only on every species of salmon, but also halibut and rock cod.""
but it does not explain the latter half of the statement not does it explain how Catch and Release has anything to do with Covid. They still felt the need tho to add it to there covid and GCL press release.
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To just chalk it IronNoggin's post to "whataboutism" does it a disservice.
As I see it, the problem is Hooten's blog rant is just a collection of "old white guy" grievances with FN fishing rights, practice and access. None of them are related to what the Haida do or are proposing. By-catch waste, interception of non-target species and high mortality happens within all sectors.
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I’m getting tired of your rants Ralph. IMO you come across as a “know it all” who always has to have the “last say”. You make multiple comments on every single thread on this forum. I suggest less time on the keyboard and more time out fishing. I won’t wait for your reply as I’m going out fishing now. Tight lines.
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I’m getting tired of your rants Ralph. IMO you come across as a “know it all” who always has to have the “last say”. You make multiple comments on every single thread on this forum. I suggest less time on the keyboard and more time out fishing. I won’t wait for your reply as I’m going out fishing now. Tight lines.
Well don't read them then. There is lots of stuff on the web I choose not to read.
Just follow the steps below and put me on your ignore list:
1. Just below the Fishing with Rod Logo in the top right below where it say " Hello Wiseguy" is a menu:
HOME HELP SEARCH PROFILE....etc
2 you'll get a new screen with a menu box on the Upper Left:
Modify Profile -> ->
the last selection is Buddies/Ignore List.
Click that
3) you get a new screen with the Modify Profile Menu Box in the same place
to the right you can choose the Edit Buddy Tab (the default) and a Edit Ignore List
click Edit Ignore
4) There will be an Add to Ignore List with an input list below named "Member"
5) type RalphH in the box and hit enter or return.
6) you'll never have to read my horrid posts again
Easy Peasy eh?
have fun
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The issue with the ignore list is that it still shows there is a post. I have tried to use it but i find myself still clicking to see what they said or what they said that someone is responding too.
I don't find it to be that effective if you want to ignore someone.
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Posts in the thread by:
Wildmanyeah 7
RalphH 10 (including this one)
8)
re: the Ignore user list... sometimes that's true sometimes not. Depends on will power. Choosing to read a post by someone on your ignore list probably means you should not have ignored them in the first place.
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hooton makes some valuable points in his thread. to chalk it up as "old white guy" does it a disservice. a few sentences do have that feel but their are valid points in his arguments.
i was not going to get involved in this thread but i feel as a recreational angler i had to speak up. i have never fished in Haida but it is on my bucket list for things i would like to accomplish. i hope a few people don't ruin it for everyone.
i am getting to the end of my patients for people who make money off the resource, i dont care what sector your from. that time has come on gone. whether your commercial, recreational or first nation. the numbers just aren't their anymore and the writng is on the wall. if stocks could allow business as usual i wouldn't be saying this. i work a 9-5 job so i can go out on the weekends to enjoy whats left of the resource and take a fish home once in a while when legally permitted. i, like other recretional anglers put the least pressure on the resource yet contribute the most funds to both the economy and government coffers. what do the relic commercial gill netters contribute in the fraser besides polluting the fraser estuary. or the guides in the fraser hooking poor sturgeon over and over again with the berries from the chum does they slaughtered everyday through the fall months, or fly in lodges where the same cupcakes happens, and its not just salmon. look at the toll the commercial fishery as done to the herring stocks. take, take, take. then we respectful recreational anglers get tossed into the mix by the bad actions of a few guides or resorts that cant be good neighbours.
i am not first nation nor do i speak for them, just a few observations.
i cant really blame them for wanting to protect whats left of natural resources. they were able to use these resources since the dawn of man. then white man comes along and decimates it in less that 200 years. have first nations done things that contradict the haida fishing code, of course. have first nations done a lot of good in the recovery aspect, yes of course. their are bad actors in every sector. i do have a problem with using language like ending the practices of "catch and release" which really is not going to help the cause. to me it shows lack of respect for my eurpean or now canadian culture which they are dismissing by saying that. all its doing is putting one sector against the other which does not help fish. first nations and recreational anglers have more in common than they think. both have a connection to the fish that the general population does not. are you going to fight for something that you really dont care about, of course not. you think the average citizen as time to care about fish with all the play up cupcakes thats gone on lately. if we actually banded together we could lobby government to allocate the proper resources to actually make a difference in the recovery of this species and other species that rely on salmon, but instead will all grabble at each other till the last fish is gone. we all eat at the table or starve as individuals.
we need to look at what happened to the cod fisheries on the east coast. unfortunately i feel like we are on the same path.
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Thank BigBlockfox - what a good post. You did a far better job on the topic than Bob Hooton.
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^^^^This x 2
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Unfortunately, humans like to kill for fun. Hell some would be killing other humans for fun if there weren't severe consequences. C&R addresses that instinct while keeping the actual mortality lower then it would be, but fish still die so we can have fun. Collateral damage I guess. It's why I almost never go fishing unless there's a chance of my keeping something.
The commercial fishermen kill for money. Somehow I don't find it any more ethical.
The only answer is environmentally sensitive farming, if people want to eat fish they didn't catch themselves.