Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: hrenya on March 31, 2016, 02:49:48 PM
-
I asked to delete my report post , and hoping that we can all argue in this one .
So lets talk :
1) Can you take fish out the water ?! (Including net)
2) Can you do that with your bare hands (of cuz must be wet and not gloves ) ?!
3) Can you land fish on the shore ?!
4) Does the 3 seconds rule apply to C&R ?!
Im holding regulations right now in my hands :
"minimized the time out of the water" a quote from page 11
Lets talk about it , I really was disappointed after some critics in my topic about quick shot , also about critics to TimL , but I didn`t see ANYONE done any critic to "FISH PORN" topic and pictures in it ... So im getting a little bit confused , if some people (who are legit fishermen/women) can do that , but other people can not . Lets figure it out :)
-
1) Yes, very short period of time. 5-10 seconds max. Nets are never needed on the river.
2) Bare hands only
3) NO. No fish should ever touch the rocks on shore. Land it in shallow water, keep it off the rocks, always..
4) Sure, 3 seconds..
Don't worry about what some grumpy fisherman say. I saw the pic, no big deal.
Tight lines..
-
Nets are never needed on the river?
-
If you are alone on the river it would be easier with a net no? With a friend it would be easy to tail a fish, but by yourself it wouldnt be very fun. I find a net practical if on a river by yourself.
-
I've never needed a net on the river. But I wear appropriate footwear or waders to get in water with the fish.
Keep your hands wet, keep the fish in enough water so as their head and gills are under water, if you feel the need for a quick shot 5 seconds MAX. There is no reason for 10 seconds out. If you really like the fish and want more then one shot, give it a good drink before the second shot.
Laying a fish on wet rocks IS NOT good enough. Plus if the fish thrashes around it could take a blow to the head. Those hero shots guys post of a wild steelhead laying perfectly still in 1/2" of water is because that fisherman played that fish beyond exhaustion.
Don't take photos at the expense of hurting the fish. Sometimes it doesn't work out. And that's fine.
-
I usually do not bring a net to a river. But I will use one if I know I am fishing a little bit of a tougher landing spot or if I am fishing bulls in the winter. Bulls are one heck of a slippery fish to tail and I don't want to keep them out of the water too long when its cold.
If I am fence posting in a spot and fishing for coho off of some boulders then I will go net any hatch fish but going after a species that you will be landing 15+ a day will just get annoying to constantly pull a net out.
-
IMHO nets are actually a better practice as 1) you can almost always end the fight quicker without having to exhaust it enough to tail and 2) you can allow the fish to recover in deeper water without having to try and control it at all times.
Having said that carrying a net around is quite the PITA and unless I am planning on fence-posting a spot I dont generally carry one anymore. Fabrill makes a foldable one that I quite liked until I left it behind somewhere...
-
What kind of fish we are talking about?
For example rainbow if bleeding will be dead within seconds no matter how carefully is handled.
I remember reading scientific article from the link provided on this site that no matter how carefully you release salmon it will die within three hours.
-
What kind of fish we are talking about?
For example rainbow if bleeding will be dead within seconds no matter how carefully is handled.
I remember reading scientific article from the link provided on this site that no matter how carefully you release salmon it will die within three hours.
we don't discuss bleeding ones ...
-
What kind of fish we are talking about?
For example rainbow if bleeding will be dead within seconds no matter how carefully is handled.
I remember reading scientific article from the link provided on this site that no matter how carefully you release salmon it will die within three hours.
You're trying to tell me, every salmon released dies within 3 hours?
You've never caught salmon with broken off hooks in their throats?
What about a steelhead in the upper chilliwack. I've seen fish up there with multiple wounds in their mouths from being hooked repeatedly.
-
we don't discuss bleeding ones ...
This ones always a hot topic. If the fish is open for retention, then keep it. Of course it's probably going to die.
If it's not, then you have to send it on its way and give it every chance to live you can. Just because it's bleeding doesn't mean you can mishandle and drag it up on the beach. that's just nonsense.
-
No doubt, you see all too often folks with very poor handling skills weather it's sturgeon, steelhead, stillwater trout or salmon. Seems a lot of folks are putting themselves, (I'm not saying you are, hrenya) or the need for the hero shot ahead of the well being of the fish. And have seen ridiculous fish handling skills without them even taking a picture also.
If you keep the fishes well being and respect ahead of yourself, rarely will problems occur. Seen reputable guides keep sturgeon in 2 inches of water for 15 minutes taking dozens of pictures and have seen guys on lakes keep the fish in the boat for far too long, sometimes literally minutes, before release more often then I'd like...it is ultra frustrating to have to witness it and if you do witness someone mishandling fish, politely go over to them, respectfully voice your concern and hope they do better next time, that is about all we can do. But before everything the respect for the fish must come first above anything else including the coveted hero shot.
As some have displayed here, it is possible to get that nice shot and have the utmost respect for the fish at the same time how ever it can sometimes be a fine line as some's standards for common sense etiquette can differ greatly. Just be mindful of the fish when handling, they can't breathe out of water and doesn't take long for the damage to be irreversible.
-
I asked to delete my report post
Please reconsider leaving it up? It's a good report and dont let the nay-sayers and second guessers discourage you from posting pics. I thought it was more than fine and your explanation of it cleared it right up IMHO.
-
Just don't post pics :) Enjoy the waters quietly. Quiet gets quieter.
-
;) nailed it.
-
(http://nativefishsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/Keep-Em-Wet1.jpg)
http://nativefishsociety.org/index.php/conservation/keep-em-wet-campaign-photo-contest/
-
how many dead steels you see washed up on the shores of the Vedder? or any other river for that matter. Some people like to take pics, some don't. It really comes down to that. I would put money on the survival of the most poorly handled fish. If you are actually landing numbers of steelhead per year pics become less important but I still take pics of any memorable fish. Nets are for Googans. If you get on the river regular you can't be bothered with a net.
-
Hrenya.....fish handling will b different for different situations on the river. Your a young fisherman....you enjoy fishing and you will catch many fish in the coming years...but try to understand what we are saying.
Fishing for a species like ie. wild coho..bull trout..wild steelhead(all fish you cannot retain on the vedder) need the utmost care to release harmlessly back to the river. No net and not removed out of the water. Keep long nosed pliers to help remove hooks that are deep.
Fishing for retainables like hatchery steelhead..hatchery coho..hatchery trout which you want to retain and kill it does not matter how long it is out of the water or if net is used.Take as many pics as you like. If you plan on releasing hatchery fish then treat them as if they are wild fish and take care with their release. As other members have stated dry rocks...no water....or grabbing by body for pics can result in harm. Even nets can result in minor slime/scale loss which can lead to infection unless it is half in water. Im not saying we are "perfect" on releasing fish because we are not. But their survival rate is much better with as little handling as possible.
-
I prefer the long line release method , which apparently I'm quite good at
-
how many dead steels you see washed up on the shores of the Vedder? or any other river for that matter. Some people like to take pics, some don't. It really comes down to that. I would put money on the survival of the most poorly handled fish. If you are actually landing numbers of steelhead per year pics become less important but I still take pics of any memorable fish. Nets are for Googans. If you get on the river regular you can't be bothered with a net.
Seriously?
There is a time and place for nets.
-
Nets are for Googans. If you get on the river regular you can't be bothered with a net.
And to that, I say you're a idiot.
I carry a net all the time with me now, after many years of not carrying one. I bush crash and hike 20+ km/day with it in canyonous river on the island, through the thickest, most brutal bush you can imagine. Never has it bothered me in the last 2 years tucked away in my wading belt - not once. I have fished 50 days since Jan 1 - would you consider that "getting out regularly on the river?"
It makes landing fish easier for us and the fish. They don't go on that one last run that tires them out considerably. That's why you'll never see me being able to post a photo of a fish laying beside my rod without a hand on it - they aren't EXHAUSTED. Every fish I land, as soon as I loosen my grip (and I need to keep a tight grip), it gives me a shower. That's the way it should be. If you can make a fish sit still, and need to revive it, you're doing something terribly wrong imo. Plus, a net allows you to keep a fish in adequate water while getting a camera ready, rather than on its side in shallow water smashing itself while you fumble around.
To each their own I guess. I have a lot of guys scowl and leave when I walk in he head of a run with a spinning rod too cause "it's for googans/beaks." You'll never guess how many fish I quickly pick up behind them. I guess a spinning rod and a net makes me a double googan ;D
Anyway...
1) Yes you can take a fish out of the water. My rule is 10 seconds max (when I've timed my lifts on the go pro, they are often in the range of 2-5 seconds). If there is no water pouring off the fish/your hands, it's been out too long. If you want to take more than 1 picture, make sure you let them take a decent breather before your next quick lift.
2) Wet bare hands are fine on fish. Glove are not. Knotless nets or rubber nets are best if you want to use one.
3) I try to never land fish in less than knee deep water. Obviously you can't ALWAYS do this, but it's a good practice. I would say you should never bring a fish onto shore or over shore unless you are killing it.
4) If you're talking about 3 seconds for having fish out of the water, then I would say both yes and no. As I said, I do it as quickly as possible. Typically this is 2-5 seconds. Anything over 10 is too long. Most studies focus on 30 second or more time intervals when looking at mortality, and even 30 seconds causes significant damage. Any air exposure is bad - limit it.
-
And to that, I say you're a idiot.
I carry a net all the time with me now, after many years of not carrying one. I bush crash and hike 20+ km/day with it in canyonous river on the island, through the thickest, most brutal bush you can imagine. Never has it bothered me in the last 2 years tucked away in my wading belt - not once. I have fished 50 days since Jan 1 - would you consider that "getting out regularly on the river?"
It makes landing fish easier for us and the fish. They don't go on that one last run that tires them out considerably. That's why you'll never see me being able to post a photo of a fish laying beside my rod without a hand on it - they aren't EXHAUSTED. Every fish I land, as soon as I loosen my grip (and I need to keep a tight grip), it gives me a shower. That's the way it should be. If you can make a fish sit still, and need to revive it, you're doing something terribly wrong imo. Plus, a net allows you to keep a fish in adequate water while getting a camera ready, rather than on its side in shallow water smashing itself while you fumble around.
To each their own I guess. I have a lot of guys scowl and leave when I walk in he head of a run with a spinning rod too cause "it's for googans/beaks." You'll never guess how many fish I quickly pick up behind them. I guess a spinning rod and a net makes me a double googan ;D
Anyway...
1) Yes you can take a fish out of the water. My rule is 10 seconds max (when I've timed my lifts on the go pro, they are often in the range of 2-5 seconds). If there is no water pouring off the fish/your hands, it's been out too long. If you want to take more than 1 picture, make sure you let them take a decent breather before your next quick lift.
2) Wet bare hands are fine on fish. Glove are not. Knotless nets or rubber nets are best if you want to use one.
3) I try to never land fish in less than knee deep water. Obviously you can't ALWAYS do this, but it's a good practice. I would say you should never bring a fish onto shore or over shore unless you are killing it.
4) If you're talking about 3 seconds for having fish out of the water, then I would say both yes and no. As I said, I do it as quickly as possible. Typically this is 2-5 seconds. Anything over 10 is too long. Most studies focus on 30 second or more time intervals when looking at mortality, and even 30 seconds causes significant damage. Any air exposure is bad - limit it.
Nice to see someone with a clue. Thanks, ED.
If you want zero harm to the fish, stay home. 3 seconds out of the water causes zero additional harm.
-
People make too big a deal about this.
Many of the handling errors people go ballistic over have only minimal impact on survival rates. Hooking location and time out of the water are the most significant factors.
Multiple studies over 5 decades show fish will survive as long as:
you use fishing methods that minimize the fish being deeply hooked. Still fishing bait is not a recommended method if fish have to be released. If you must still fish use circle hooks.
you handle fish gently, don't squeeze the fish
you minimize the time fish are removed from the water to seconds
you don't allow the fish to flop on land
you don't pull fish up onto dry land if intending to release it
you don't attempt to remove hooks set in the throat or gills - cut the leader
Nets are fine. Nets can reduce both direct handling and the amount of time it takes to release a fish. Shallow 'catch and release' nets are better as they allow easy access to the fish to remove the hook. Nets can make it easier to handle smaller fish and reduce handling. In many situations nets are essential.
There was nothing wrong with your photo of that bull trout in the net. It is a far better way to take a photo than the typical hoist and hug method some people prefer for hero shots. Shame on people who won't believe you caught a fish if no photo is provided.
Criticizing for that sort of picture amounts to bullying.
-
And to that, I say you're a idiot.
I carry a net all the time with me now, after many years of not carrying one. I bush crash and hike 20+ km/day with it in canyonous river on the island, through the thickest, most brutal bush you can imagine. Never has it bothered me in the last 2 years tucked away in my wading belt - not once. I have fished 50 days since Jan 1 - would you consider that "getting out regularly on the river?"
It makes landing fish easier for us and the fish. They don't go on that one last run that tires them out considerably. That's why you'll never see me being able to post a photo of a fish laying beside my rod without a hand on it - they aren't EXHAUSTED. Every fish I land, as soon as I loosen my grip (and I need to keep a tight grip), it gives me a shower. That's the way it should be. If you can make a fish sit still, and need to revive it, you're doing something terribly wrong imo. Plus, a net allows you to keep a fish in adequate water while getting a camera ready, rather than on its side in shallow water smashing itself while you fumble around.
To each their own I guess. I have a lot of guys scowl and leave when I walk in he head of a run with a spinning rod too cause "it's for googans/beaks." You'll never guess how many fish I quickly pick up behind them. I guess a spinning rod and a net makes me a double googan ;D
Anyway...
1) Yes you can take a fish out of the water. My rule is 10 seconds max (when I've timed my lifts on the go pro, they are often in the range of 2-5 seconds). If there is no water pouring off the fish/your hands, it's been out too long. If you want to take more than 1 picture, make sure you let them take a decent breather before your next quick lift.
2) Wet bare hands are fine on fish. Glove are not. Knotless nets or rubber nets are best if you want to use one.
3) I try to never land fish in less than knee deep water. Obviously you can't ALWAYS do this, but it's a good practice. I would say you should never bring a fish onto shore or over shore unless you are killing it.
4) If you're talking about 3 seconds for having fish out of the water, then I would say both yes and no. As I said, I do it as quickly as possible. Typically this is 2-5 seconds. Anything over 10 is too long. Most studies focus on 30 second or more time intervals when looking at mortality, and even 30 seconds causes significant damage. Any air exposure is bad - limit it.
hey ED, you don't have to make a case for what a hardcore dedicated angler you are: 50 days since January, brutal brush, canyon hikes 20+ km, picking up many fish behind others, ect. I think most know that about you already as you have mentioned these things frequently over the years. I believe it. That's great that you can do all of that with a net in tow. The fact is, most river rats think "googan" when they see someone Steelheading with a net, maybe they think differently when you pick up many fish behind them.
-
I carry a catch and release landing net most of the time when fishing the Vedder. Who cares about what others think?
-
I carry a catch and release landing net most of the time when fishing the Vedder. Who cares about what others think?
Newer anglers will often care about what other/more experienced anglers think.
The fact that many people frown upon a net during steelhead season will probably lead many new anglers to leave a net at home. This is a bad thing imo. As I already stated - nets make fights shorter (exhaust the fish less), and allow an angler to safely cradle a fish in the water without having to really touch it while getting the camera ready, etc. There is no chance of it bashing itself to death on rocks, or being in too shallow of water high and dry.
The vedder is the easiest place ever to carry a net. There is no bush, and half the time you can bounce hole to hole via car. There is practically no reason to not carry one - other than apparently looking like an idiot I guess.
-
You're trying to tell me, every salmon released dies within 3 hours?
You've never caught salmon with broken off hooks in their throats?
What about a steelhead in the upper chilliwack. I've seen fish up there with multiple wounds in their mouths from being hooked repeatedly.
I only convey what the article has said . Apparently during the fight there is some substance released (due to stress)into blood system that prevents salmon from recovery and it dies within 3 hours. That was a scientific find not mine so arguing with me at this point is matterless.
-
You're talking about lactic acid?
Yes the longer you play the fish the more lactic acid builds up which can kill the fish.
I'm not trying to start an argument with you maybe it came across that way when I read back. However the fact that I've caught fish with old hooks in them in fresh and salt kind of debunks that at least somewhat.
Can you provide a link to this study I must have missed it on here.
-
Everything I've read on the subject suggests that the biggest factor on fish mortality is exhaustion. Take an exhausted fish and combine that with extended periods of time out of the water and the mortality rates spike.
If a fish hasn't been overplayed, a two or three second lift for a quickly timed pic is something that I've always been comfortable with. If the fish is stressed from a long battle or water temps are high, get the pic next time or at a minimum, keep that stressed fish wet.
A Queen's University study shows the following survival rates:
1) exercised trout (simulating being caught) survival rate was 88%
2) exercised trout with 30 seconds or air exposure 62%
3) exercised trout with 60 seconds of air exposure 28%
Certainly, prolonged periods of time out of the water have an enormous impact on mortality rates. Especially on highly exhausted fish. It's kind of like doing the 800m run and then having someone plug your nose and mouth. But a second or two to snap a pic on a fish that hasn't been exhausted...? Just fine in my book.
http://www.tu.org/sites/default/files/Handling_Stress_Summary.pdf
-
[quote author=losos link=topic=39610.msg374400#msg374400 date=1459615109
I only convey what the article has said . Apparently during the fight there is some substance released (due to stress)into blood system that prevents salmon from recovery and it dies within 3 hours. That was a scientific find not mine so arguing with me at this point is matterless.
[/quote]
That was a very old study and was done using the commercial troll industry as the model. There are literally hundreds of studies done over 40 to 50 years all over the globe. Pacific Salmon in saltwater generally have lower survival rates but they don't all die - it's more like 10 to 20% provide they are not seriously injured when hooked
Everything I've read on the subject suggests that the biggest factor on fish mortality is exhaustion. Take an exhausted fish and combine that with extended periods of time out of the water and the mortality rates spike.
No. That study shows that if the trout ability to breath is removed for prolonged period mortality rises quickly. It's reasonably assumed that the fish can't breath when not in water. There is a significant change at around 30 seconds of air exposure.
If you read the specific study in your link- they recommend fish be held out of water for no more than 20 seconds
-
No. That study shows that if the trout ability to breath is removed for prolonged period mortality rises quickly. It's reasonably assumed that the fish can't breath when not in water. There is a significant change at around 30 seconds of air exposure.
If you read the specific study in your link- they recommend fish be held out of water for no more than 20 seconds
I did read it RalphH. :)
The study was done using "exercised " trout as I posted. They exhausted them first to simulate having been tired out during a fight and then deprived them of water. The second paragraph in the link I provided discusses briefly the physiological effects due to angling duration, which are significant. "Add" to that, oxygen deprivation and the mortality rates spike.
Nonetheless, I think we both agree a quick picture is fine as long as one is using common sense and not holding a tired, stress out fish, out of the water for extended periods.
Cheers,
wimf
-
You're talking about lactic acid?
Yes the longer you play the fish the more lactic acid builds up which can kill the fish.
I'm not trying to start an argument with you maybe it came across that way when I read back. However the fact that I've caught fish with old hooks in them in fresh and salt kind of debunks that at least somewhat.
Can you provide a link to this study I must have missed it on here.
Noach, unfortunately the link was provided here by someone else , it was about a year ago if memory doesn't fail me and you should not count on it. The substance was not lactic acid since I'm familiar with it for my entire life ,after all I used to be sportsman, but something else.
-
I did read it RalphH. :)
...
Nonetheless, I think we both agree a quick picture is fine as long as one is using common sense and not holding a tired, stress out fish, out of the water for extended periods.
Cheers,
wimf
Sorry, it was just a figure of speech. I knew you read it and by 'you' I more intended to mean anyone who read my post. Yes we agree.
-
When you are new and excited about catching a fish, you do not stop and think about the survivability of the fish. They drag them up before checking whether its hatch or native. I see it during both coho and steelhead season.
I think education is the main thing for fishermen. I think we all did it once or twice until we were told not to do it. It is heart wrenching when you see someone dragging a chum up 10 feet and then slowly kicking it back into the water....