Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Trout_Bum on April 09, 2013, 03:39:46 PM
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Out today for my usual butt-kickin on the Vedder today. No steel but did get a dolly.
It was great to be out on the flow, but due to high water I fished the canal area at Keith Wilson Bridge. Not my normal spot for sure. I was surprised to have a jet boat come up the river at full throttle, right through my drift. The wake from the boat caused quite a bit of mud to wash into the previously clear river and turned the twenty feet out from shore into a chocolate milkshake. Now I don't see why anyone needs to take a jet boat up the Vedder, as it is genarally accessible evrywhere. These guys were just on a siteseeing mission as they roared back down to the Fraser fifteen minutes after passing me. It just doesn't seem right that a jet boat can blast through the river, yet shore fishermen follow a code of conduct (or should).
I am sure that not all jet boat pilots would behave like this, nor is it illegal to boat on the Vedder. Anyone else have any comment on this?
Trout Bum
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Its been discussed before.
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I saw them as we'll they came right up below the trainbridge and turned around
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Actually it is illegal to boat up the vedder. That's probably why they came back so quick.
I would of tried to cast into their boat.
Below the barrowtown launch is legal.
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I would think Jet boats would be illegal as they rip up the bottom of the river, which might interfere with fish habitat and spawning. Would like to know?
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Actually it is illegal to boat up the vedder. Below the barrowtown launch is legal.
Curious if you can provide a primary source for that (i.e. the legislation, regulation or bylaw)?
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I didn't realize it was illegal either, nothing in the fishing regulations (where I usually see boating restrictions).
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Actually it is illegal to boat up the vedder. That's probably why they came back so quick.
I would of tried to cast into their boat.
Below the barrowtown launch is legal.
Better back that up with a link of some sort.
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They should be banned. A few years ago I was on the Vedder up to my waist in water when I heard one coming up the river. I just stood there and watched it go by. Really stupid as its wake was heading towards me and ended up topping over my waders. One wet crouch later I may have said a bad word.
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Do a search it was discussed on here before.
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Do a search it was discussed on here before.
x2
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Better back that up with a link of some sort.
X2
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Jetboat on the Vedder...
Unecessary? Completely.
Annoying? Pretty much.
Illegal? I don't think so.
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Jetboat on the Vedder...
Unecessary? Completely.
Annoying? Pretty much.
Illegal? I don't think so.
Too many people crying and jealous they don't own a jet? Yup
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Target practice. Bouncing Betty style. Combine fishing and hunting at the same time😜
We shall call it funting.
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it is legal and they have a right to the river too. but casting at them or throwing things at them would be some sort of assault.
besides if someone casted at me I would probably pull my boat over and have a nice friendly irish chat with them.
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it is legal and they have a right to the river too. but casting at them or throwing things at them would be some sort of assault.
besides if someone casted at me I would probably pull my boat over and have a nice friendly irish chat with them.
As opposed to blasting by within several metres of someone standing waist deep and swamping them. Gross negligence, assault, battery come to mind.
You may think you throw less wake on plane but it doesn't give waders a chance to get out of the way.
Think of it as driving through downtown Vancouver at 60mph. You may not hit anyone but you sure aren't going to make any friends. I don't think anyone would complain if someone idled upriver.
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Too many people crying and jealous they don't own a jet? Yup
Hahaha... I'm sure some people are "crying and jealous", but I'm not one of them.
Besides - having a jetboat would be nice, but I can promise you I wouldn't be running it up the Vedder if I did.
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Too many people crying and jealous they don't own a jet? Yup
My thoughts exactly. Apparently sharing the river only applies to 'walk and wade' fishermen.
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Dion, I agree completely. What bothered me initially was the jet coming right through my drift with no regard to my enjoyment of the river. I felt as though these guys dropped a hand grenade into the run. Sure it may not be illegal, but in my view its unethical. As I try to practice good etiquette on the flow, it's disturbing to see this type of behavior.
Has anyone had a boat anchor in the middle of an already occupied (by shore fishermen) run?
Trout_bum
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"have a nice friendly irish chat with them"
Bring it on baby. Maybe bring it on shore ( the talk) and lets watch that heavy piece of destructive machinery float down stream to a place where it is more welcomed. Enough other places to go, that would do less damage than to a jewel of a river. Johnny Canuck jealous no. Amused by the ignorance and stupidity of a few people looking for a confrontation or a controversy . Yes.
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I don't think anyone would complain if someone idled upriver.
I think this is an important statement.
I'd argue that people would still complain even if the boat idled up through a run. The sense of entitlement people show is astounding.
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I'd argue that people would still complain even if the boat idled up through a run. The sense of entitlement people show is astounding.
It's as if the shore anglers own the river... I'm still baffled why some people are fishing the river while standing waist deep in the water. I can cast across the river almost anywhere on the system, besides if you're waist deep there was probably fish holding there before you spooked them away. The people complaining about a jet quickly running up a river have no idea about jets clearly. A jet on plane has like 3" of hull in the water, a jet idling up stream will have like 6-8" in the water. Which will have a bigger wake? Hmmm I'm no rocket scientist but I'd say 6-8" probably.
What would "spook" fish less a quick noise or a long lingering one? A quick noise.
Now for those that think a boat will turn steelhead off the bite at this time of the year are obviosly limited in their fishing experiences. Stale fish need a good "spooking" to turn them on the bite. For example when I fish a piece of water (usually pools or runs) which I know has fish in it and I don't hook anything I will toss in a couple fist sized rocks to stir the fish up a bit and snap them out of their "trance". Give the piece of water a few quick minutes and then fish it again, most of the time I hook one or more fish. Maybe you guys should be thanking the jet boat for running around stirring up the fish rather than tossing shyte at the boat like children.
"have a nice friendly irish chat with them"
Bring it on baby. Maybe bring it on shore ( the talk) and lets watch that heavy piece of destructive machinery float down stream to a place where it is more welcomed. Enough other places to go, that would do less damage than to a jewel of a river.
I'm not aware of a jet boat that doesn't have an anchor of some sort... As for the Chilliwack system being a "jewel" ROTFLMFAO ::) It's a hatchery induced river for a meat fishery and the most heavily stocked flow in BC, it was a jewel 50 years ago.
Hahaha... I'm sure some people are "crying and jealous", but I'm not one of them.
Besides - having a jetboat would be nice, but I can promise you I wouldn't be running it up the Vedder if I did.
Maybe I'll start running mine up the river more than in June just so I can read about it here when I'm at home bored.
Target practice. Bouncing Betty style. Combine fishing and hunting at the same time😜
We shall call it funting.
LOL Hopefully no one is dumb enough to do that, oh wait some did try that to me when running peg leg over the years. I've had 3 people cast a betty into my boat, one guy lost his rod and reel as I kept going, the other two both got spooled after I tied their shyte to my boat and continued up to my to chosen spot for the day.
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You know what I do when jet boat rips by? Take a few steps back and wait..
Same principle would probably work well here too.
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it is legal and they have a right to the river too. but casting at them or throwing things at them would be some sort of assault.
besides if someone casted at me I would probably pull my boat over and have a nice friendly irish chat with them.
Yup!
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Omg popcorn needed this is the best thread in a long time.
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I don't know what all the hate is about...often times the fish come on in a big way after jets go by, it stirs them up and gets them biting...
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As long as the boater isn't purposefully trying to swamp people on shore then I don't see the issue. I fish out of a kayak and have shared a lot of rivers with jet boaters and they have always been very respectful of me.
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It's as if the shore anglers own the river... I'm still baffled why some people are fishing the river while standing waist deep in the water.
Who thinks who owns the river? As for links check Canadian Maritime Law. It is both irresponsible and illegal to operate a boat at high speed when people are in the water and that close. The possible consequences both civil and criminal are obvious to anyone but a fool. People who don't know this shouldn't be operating any power boat. In my experience many power boat operators act irresponsibly and are just plain rude when shore anglers are nearby. They also have an insufferable sense of entitlement simply on the basis that they have spent a lot of money on a man toy.
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"have a nice friendly irish chat with them"
Bring it on baby.....
fishyfish.....not sure if you know Jetboatjim but if he was to come ashore for a "friendly irish chat", he must really be pissed off cause I personally couldn't see it but 9 times out of 10 I'd put my money on Jim. I'd think twice before throwing down with a guy that's thrown with mitts.
Hate to say it folks but if there's no law stopping jetboats from running up the Vedder than there's nothing else to be said. 1 thing I have learned is that not everyone plays nice and that everyone seems to look out for themselves. I would hate it to if I was fishing a stretch where a boat goes ripping by but what can you do about it if there's no law against it!
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Who thinks who owns the river? As for links check Canadian Maritime Law. It is both irresponsible and illegal to operate a boat at high speed when people are in the water and that close. The possible consequences both civil and criminal are obvious to anyone but a fool. People who don't know this shouldn't be operating any power boat. In my experience many power boat operators act irresponsibly and are just plain rude when shore anglers are nearby. They also have an insufferable sense of entitlement simply on the basis that they have spent a lot of money on a man toy.
So you obviously know how a jet pump works and how you steer a jet boat right? "man toy" LOL jealous...
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Obviously a jet boat is just a compensation for penis envy, so I don't need one. ;D
No I am not jealous and have other financial priorities. Beside I own 3 watercraft already... maybe if I won the lottery I'd buy a nice boat but likely not a jet boat.
Oh and Maritime Law doesn't distinguish between jet boat and power boat. I'd love to hear someone argue otherwise in court after they've squashed and drowned a wading angler on the V-C.
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Obviously a jet boat is just a compensation for penis envy, so I don't need one. ;D
No I am not jealous and have other financial priorities. Beside I own 3 watercraft already... maybe if I won the lottery I'd buy a nice boat but likely not a jet boat.
Oh and Maritime Law doesn't distinguish between jet boat and power boat. I'd love to hear someone argue otherwise in court after they've squashed and drowned a wading angler on the V-C.
"Penis envy" lol exactly what the jealous ones say to make themselves not sound jealous to others. Whatever you have to say to make it so you can sleep at night I guess though. The guys that say they have a big one end up having the smallest one...
To steer a jet you need to be under power and the more propulsion used the more steering ability you have. What I wonder is why all the people on shore just stand there nipples deep in the water while they listen to a jet come up river for 45-60 seconds as they're not that quiet. Ahhh yes that's right no common sense, normal people need to protect the ones that would normally die off in evolution and those genes then would be gone from the gene pool. However the way sociaty is these days even the dimmest buld on the tree or the dullest knife in the drawer gets held onto like a hoarder. I dunno but if I was standing in an open field and there was a Boeing 777 making an emergency landing I would move not just stand there and say "Well aviation laws state..."
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"Penis envy" lol exactly what the jealous ones say to make themselves not sound jealous to others. Whatever you have to say to make it so you can sleep at night I guess though. The guys that say they have a big one end up having the smallest one...
To steer a jet you need to be under power and the more propulsion used the more steering ability you have. What I wonder is why all the people on shore just stand there nipples deep in the water while they listen to a jet come up river for 45-60 seconds as they're not that quiet. Ahhh yes that's right no common sense, normal people need to protect the ones that would normally die off in evolution and those genes then would be gone from the gene pool. However the way sociaty is these days even the dimmest buld on the tree or the dullest knife in the drawer gets held onto like a hoarder. I dunno but if I was standing in an open field and there was a Boeing 777 making an emergency landing I would move not just stand there and say "Well aviation laws state..."
The river is loud and there is no reason for a Vedder fisher to expect a jet boat to be flying around the corner. If the jet boat driver cannot see or avoid someone standing in the river then they are the irresponsible one.
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"LOL Hopefully no one is dumb enough to do that, oh wait some did try that to me when running peg leg over the years. I've had 3 people cast a betty into my boat, one guy lost his rod and reel as I kept going, the other two both got spooled after I tied their shyte to my boat and continued up to my to chosen spot for the day."
Why did you feel the need to drive close enough to shore that three people were able to cast into your boat?
"Maybe I'll start running mine up the river more than in June just so I can read about it here when I'm at home bored."
These two statements support my opinion that these particular jet boat operators are looking to spark confrontation and controversy. Running a jet boat up a small river traditional viewed as a fishing, kayaking, whitewater rafting (all of which I don't have a problem with) river and then coming on a fishing forum to promote and defend the action shows me some are probably looking for attention. Hopefully you have been relieved of your "boredom" for a short spell.
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The river is loud and there is no reason for a Vedder fisher to expect a jet boat to be flying around the corner. If the jet boat driver cannot see or avoid someone standing in the river then they are the irresponsible one.
The chilliwack river is FAR from loud, the only area that may be "loud" would be tamahi. No one has said that a boat has even been close to them you're jumping to conclusions. Everyone is crying about the wake which is like 5" tall and that they "spook" the fish.
"LOL Hopefully no one is dumb enough to do that, oh wait some did try that to me when running peg leg over the years. I've had 3 people cast a betty into my boat, one guy lost his rod and reel as I kept going, the other two both got spooled after I tied their shyte to my boat and continued up to my to chosen spot for the day."
Why did you feel the need to drive close enough to shore that three people were able to cast into your boat?
"Maybe I'll start running mine up the river more than in June just so I can read about it here when I'm at home bored."
These two statements support my opinion that these particular jet boat operators are looking to spark confrontation and controversy. Running a jet boat up a small river traditional viewed as a fishing, kayaking, whitewater rafting (all of which I don't have a problem with) river and then coming on a fishing forum to promote and defend the action shows me some are probably looking for attention. Hopefully you have been relieved of your "boredom" for a short spell.
Ever been to peg leg? Ever been there when the river is low? Near the top you can damn near cast across the channel. Now picture people on both sides of the channel...
As for getting attention yes that's it, I use my pleasure craft to get attention ::) Heck sometimes I just tow my boat around when I don't even plan on using it that day to say "HEY LOOK I HAVE MONEY TO BLOW AND MY PENIS IS SMALL" ::)
...jealous...
B.S. People are talking about being swamped. The river is narrow and if you're blasting upriver at 30 knots you cannot avoid getting close. If you think your wake is only 5" then you are also delusional.
I don't feel envy for you - only pity.
30 knots ::) try more like 15 maybe 20 knots tops. Yes 5" well ok maybe 7" and no I'm not delusional, am I running a 30' HCM twin HD up the river? No I am not.
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No one has said that a boat has even been close to them you're jumping to conclusions. Everyone is crying about the wake which is like 5" tall and that they "spook" the fish
B.S. People are talking about being swamped. The river is narrow and if you're blasting upriver at 30 knots you cannot avoid getting close. If you think your wake is only 5" then you are also delusional.
I don't feel envy for you - only pity.
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There is absolutely no reason to fishing the vedder while wading above your waist. So there should be no way to be "swamped" by a passing boat. The only reason be be wading out any deeper than your waist would be to cross the river.
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man i want your lives! nothing better to do than argue boats on a freaking river. i want that kind of stress free life.
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man i want your lives! nothing better to do than argue boats on a freaking river. i want that kind of stress free life.
Well some days I wished I worked as it gets boring sitting at home when it's slow on here... Nah who am I kidding :P
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I have a jet, a little 14' puddle jumper with a 40/30 horse not much of a speed demon but man it will run shallow. I ususally use it in places seriously remote and really have no desire to run the vedder as fun as that would be. The problem with jets is that if you arent on plane then you could be on the bottom. Coming up though shallow tail outs and such I cannot let off the throttle or I will be on the ground. You can not get back up on step unless you have 12 or more inches of water to deal with. When I do see a shore angler I will usually hug the opposite side of the river to minamize disturbance and if the run is deep enough I will come off plane and putt though the run. At the end of the day a jet is a tool which can be used to access some of the best and most remote rivers in our province. You can legally run the vedder and I may consider it but proably only in june when there arent any fishermen about and if there are well I wouldnt have any problem getting really close. ;) my 2 cents
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the real question is with all the shore access on the Vedder why would you NEED to run a jet up there......
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the real question is with all the shore access on the Vedder why would you NEED to run a jet up there......
I think those that run their boats up the Chilliwack system do so because their other plan fell through. Such as they were fishing for sturgeon and it was slow and they had some gear rods on board the boat. I only run mine in there in June and that's for the shyte and giggle factor. I've often thought about going for the limit hole area but have never really followed through with it lol.
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I've often thought about going for the limit hole area but have never really followed through with it lol.
Hey Johnny, Just curious , can you really jetboat all the way up to Limit hole, I have never seen it before ?
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Hey Johnny, Just curious , can you really jetboat all the way up to Limit hole, I have never seen it before ?
With the water up why not? Only actually tricky area would be tamahi that I can think of off hand.
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With the water up why not? Only actually tricky area would be tamahi that I can think of off hand.
ok! lets do it. I only need 5-6" of water. lets have a fish-out at limit hole.
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I don't know about you guys, but it is clear to me who it was that ran their jet up through Trout bum's run.
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I don't know about you guys, but it is clear to me who it was that ran their jet up through Trout bum's run.
Who ???
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I think those that run their boats up the Chilliwack system do so because their other plan fell through. Such as they were fishing for sturgeon and it was slow and they had some gear rods on board the boat. I only run mine in there in June and that's for the shyte and giggle factor. I've often thought about going for the limit hole area but have never really followed through with it lol.
Are you for real? Alot nicer rivers to run,with alot less shore anglers around. The Vedd is not one of them.Lol
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don't really see a problem with it in freshet conditions....I have been in boats up to wilson rd (upper) and know people who have gone past thompson park and made it almost right to tamahi bridge!
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Are you for real? Alot nicer rivers to run,with alot less shore anglers around. The Vedd is not one of them.Lol
So if you were fishing for sturgeon in the Fraser near the Chilliwack system and decided to go for steelhead which river would you go to Dennis? Oh there are none... Or what if you wanted a river to run for a bit of a thrill maybe some back channels on the Fraser, not allowed to do that on the Harrison, so that leaves?...
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To steer a jet you need to be under power and the more propulsion used the more steering ability you have. What I wonder is why all the people on shore just stand there nipples deep in the water while they listen to a jet come up river for 45-60 seconds as they're not that quiet. Ahhh yes that's right no common sense, normal people need to protect the ones that would normally die off in evolution and those genes then would be gone from the gene pool. However the way sociaty is these days even the dimmest buld on the tree or the dullest knife in the drawer gets held onto like a hoarder. I dunno but if I was standing in an open field and there was a Boeing 777 making an emergency landing I would move not just stand there and say "Well aviation laws state..."
yes your comparison of an endangered jet liner carrying perhaps more than 100 people to a leadhead piloting a jet boat is an intellectual tour de force. I am impressed! ::)
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I heard the Vedder is heavily fished? Is this true as well?
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Why are you not allowed on the Harrison?
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don't really see a problem with it in freshet conditions....I have been in boats up to wilson rd (upper) and know people who have gone past thompson park and made it almost right to tamahi bridge!
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
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You can most definitely take your jet on the Harrison but some of the small channels and bays have signs saying no motors if I remember correctly (it has been a long time since I have taken a boat on this river).
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Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
.... ??? lol
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.... ??? lol
Sandman, as you can see, the uneducated ones will never get it.
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Jet boats on the Vedder....seen them. Have some trouble understanding why. The next thing you know the Vedder will turn into one of those rivers where the shore anglers will think about low-holing other fisherman!
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Jet boats on the Vedder....seen them. Have some trouble understanding why. The next thing you know the Vedder will turn into one of those rivers where the shore anglers will think about low-holing other fisherman!
Nooooooooooooooooooo.....
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jet boats on a small fishing river?
just because you can do something legally does not remove that fact that it's obnoxious.
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yes your comparison of an endangered jet liner carrying perhaps more than 100 people to a leadhead piloting a jet boat is an intellectual tour de force. I am impressed! ::)
Glad that you're impressed, I aim to please ;D
Why are you not allowed on the Harrison?
Environmentally sensitive areas.
Sandman, as you can see, the uneducated ones will never get it.
My grade 7 edjumakation has served me well in life...
The "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." moto is for those who live dull boring lives. Wake up at the same time every day, have the same PB & J sandwich day in, day out and then come home from work eat dinner watch the news and go to bed to get up and do it all over again the next day. Life is what you make it, whether it be fun and exciting or dull, boring and whiny.
jet boats on a small fishing river?
Alouette, norrish and capilano are small flows, the chilliwack is no where near a small river.
just because you can do something legally does not remove that fact that it's obnoxious.
So much could be said about this part but I wouldn't want to come across as a whiny cry baby because its not the way I would like it to be.
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Would you run your jet up the Alouette or Capilano? Just looking for where you draw the line.
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Would you run your jet up the Alouette or Capilano? Just looking for where you draw the line.
Alouette does not allow power boats so no I wouldn't run that river. It is also for too sensitive to have a boat run it as a jet does create some environmental damage such as bank erosion. Capilano fluctuates far too much to be safe for a boat. Although with it at a decent level like the 4 or 5 on the camera it probably would be doable however rather sphincter puckering on the way down lol. As for "drawing the line" I'm not doing anything illegal and have every right to do it if I want. If anyone has an issue or problem with me doing anything I am entitled to do maybe you should be worrying more about yourself and less about others and what they are doing.
On a side note it was not me who ran through trout bums run that day and was no where near the Chilliwack system that day let alone close to my boat.
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My grade 7 edjumakation has served me well in life...
The "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." moto is for those who live dull boring lives. Wake up at the same time every day, have the same PB & J sandwich day in, day out and then come home from work eat dinner watch the news and go to bed to get up and do it all over again the next day. Life is what you make it, whether it be fun and exciting or dull, boring and whiny.
I have no doubt that you really believe this. I am happy to say I was not your Grade 7 teacher (or your father). I would have taught you better. Your ad hominem attacks aside, I have engaged in my share of thrilling adventures, but I would never put my own enjoyment above someone else's. Even the kayaks I meet on the flow, quiet and benign fellow users of the same river, will pause above me and make sure I see them coming and try to avoid running through while I swing my fly. I, in turn will retrieve my line and politely wait as they paddle through. Even when I run my small 8 hp inflatable up the Harrison, I am conscious of the shore anglers and other boats, be they anchored or moving, and try to avoid them as much as possible. You simply cannot avoid people while running a small river like the Chilliwack, so you are making a. conscious decision to put your own thrills above the enjoyment of other users. Some people just have more respect for others and for the environment than other people do. I don't blame you...I blame your parents.
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Well said Sandman.
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I have no doubt that you really believe this. I am happy to say I was not your Grade 7 teacher (or your father). I would have taught you better. Your ad hominem attacks aside, I have engaged in my share of thrilling adventures, but I would never put my own enjoyment above someone else's. Even the kayaks I meet on the flow, quiet and benign fellow users of the same river, will pause above me and make sure I see them coming and try to avoid running through while I swing my fly. I, in turn will retrieve my line and politely wait as they paddle through. Even when I run my small 8 hp inflatable up the Harrison, I am conscious of the shore anglers and other boats, be they anchored or moving, and try to avoid them as much as possible. You simply cannot avoid people while running a small river like the Chilliwack, so you are making a. conscious decision to put your own thrills above the enjoyment of other users. Some people just have more respect for others and for the environment than other people do. I don't blame you...I blame your parents.
Blame my parents? Why would you do that? I am old enough to choose what I would like to do and I can make my own decisions. Which school have you taught at? Maybe you were my teacher :o Maybe all kayakers are fly flingers as they sure never stop for the gear guys out there. Ad hominem attacks LMAO like the one you just did to me on my parents ::) ::) Like I said I run it in JUNE during freshet when the river is closed to fishing (but I guess you read that already) and how I said that I wasn't on or near the chilliwack river let alone my boat that day.
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Over the years I have seen 3 or 4 boats all the way up as far as the end of the canal and I don't think that it is fair that the 150,000+ yearly angler days should be ruined by these 3 or 4 boaters each and every year!!!!!
Sandman, brilliant to bring J.C. to task for his ad hominem attacks while insulting his family. And your comment about teaching him better really made me happy because one never gets to use self-aggrandizing in a post and now I get to use it and pompous in the same one! Of course, you must be a teacher because they are usually the subject that brings out those two words. Along with J.C.'s statement about his development as a person, I also credit my teachers with very little of my education and none of my personal development.
And your comment about "to put your own thrills above the enjoyment of other users" has me confused because isn't that what you are advocating when you want to keep boaters off the river completely? At least the boaters only inconvenience a small percentage of the anglers in the lower end of the river while you want to ban all boaters.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsHJNgMKSJ8 :o ;)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsHJNgMKSJ8 :o ;)
Haha! Looks like Island 22 in August. ;)
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Haha! Looks like Island 22 in August. ;)
I was thinking it looked more like the Vedder in April.... ;D
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And your comment about "to put your own thrills above the enjoyment of other users" has me confused because isn't that what you are advocating when you want to keep boaters off the river completely? At least the boaters only inconvenience a small percentage of the anglers in the lower end of the river while you want to ban all boaters.
Not sure where you saw me advocating a ban on all boaters on the river (red herring?). Bans are only necessary when people cannot make the right decision for themselves. I only mentioned that the running of a jet boat up to Tamahi, while perhaps possible, may not necessarily be the best idea (just because you can doesn't mean you should). I am also intrigued by both you and JC's comments about his parents, since all I said was that I blame them for his callous attitudes about his exercising his so called boating rights at the expense of other users enjoyment, and his characterizing of anyone without a jet boat as just "jealous" of his possessions and living "dull boring lives" if they are not running jets up to Tamahi. For this to be insulting, you would first have to admit that there is something wrong with his attitudes and comments, which you both are trying to defend. hmm.
Just to clarify, an ad hominem attack is criticizing the opposing person in a debate rather than addressing the issue at hand. JC, instead of just explaining why jetting up a small river like the Vedder (while a larger river than say the aforementioned Allouette and Norrish, the Chilliwack river is still small compared to rivers like the Harrison, Pitt, or Lower Stave) through a run while fisherman are trying to fish from shore is acceptable, he attacks the other posters as "jealous" and "boring." THAT is ad hominem. Had he stuck to defending the action instead of insulting the other posters, he would not be committing the fallacy. Since I, when blaming his parents for not teaching him better, was addressing his attitudes and comments, not the running of the river, my attack was not ad hominem, it was a critique of his rhetorical methods and their inherent logical fallacies, skills his parents and teachers should have done a better job teaching.
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Not sure where you saw me advocating a ban on all boaters on the river (red herring?). Bans are only necessary when people cannot make the right decision for themselves. I only mentioned that the running of a jet boat up to Tamahi, while perhaps possible, may not necessarily be the best idea (just because you can doesn't mean you should). I am also intrigued by both you and JC's comments about his parents, since all I said was that I blame them for his callous attitudes about his exercising his so called boating rights at the expense of other users enjoyment, and his characterizing of anyone without a jet boat as just "jealous" of his possessions and living "dull boring lives" if they are not running jets up to Tamahi. For this to be insulting, you would first have to admit that there is something wrong with his attitudes and comments, which you both are trying to defend. hmm.
Just to clarify, an ad hominem attack is criticizing the opposing person in a debate rather than addressing the issue at hand. JC, instead of just explaining why jetting up a small river like the Vedder (while a larger river than say the aforementioned Allouette and Norrish, the Chilliwack river is still small compared to rivers like the Harrison, Pitt, or Lower Stave) through a run while fisherman are trying to fish from shore is acceptable, he attacks the other posters as "jealous" and "boring." THAT is ad hominem. Had he stuck to defending the action instead of insulting the other posters, he would not be committing the fallacy. Since I, when blaming his parents for not teaching him better, was addressing his attitudes and comments, not the running of the river, my attack was not ad hominem, it was a critique of his rhetorical methods and their inherent logical fallacies, skills his parents and teachers should have done a better job teaching.
Well written now maybe dumb it down so you don't appear to put yourself on a high horse above everyone else.
Everyone says steelhead have the brain the size of a peanut, that must be why they're so easy to get to bite. Although I find it just as easy to have a human bite and they're supposed to be the most intelligent species on this planet. I guess the right bait if served up correctly really helps, for example a simple post on a discussion forum on a topic some strongly disagree with. Thanks sandman for entertaining me its been great...
:o ;D
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Not sure where you saw me advocating a ban on all boaters on the river (red herring?). Bans are only necessary when people cannot make the right decision for themselves. I only mentioned that the running of a jet boat up to Tamahi, while perhaps possible, may not necessarily be the best idea (just because you can doesn't mean you should). I am also intrigued by both you and JC's comments about his parents, since all I said was that I blame them for his callous attitudes about his exercising his so called boating rights at the expense of other users enjoyment, and his characterizing of anyone without a jet boat as just "jealous" of his possessions and living "dull boring lives" if they are not running jets up to Tamahi. For this to be insulting, you would first have to admit that there is something wrong with his attitudes and comments, which you both are trying to defend. hmm.
Just to clarify, an ad hominem attack is criticizing the opposing person in a debate rather than addressing the issue at hand. JC, instead of just explaining why jetting up a small river like the Vedder (while a larger river than say the aforementioned Allouette and Norrish, the Chilliwack river is still small compared to rivers like the Harrison, Pitt, or Lower Stave) through a run while fisherman are trying to fish from shore is acceptable, he attacks the other posters as "jealous" and "boring." THAT is ad hominem. Had he stuck to defending the action instead of insulting the other posters, he would not be committing the fallacy. Since I, when blaming his parents for not teaching him better, was addressing his attitudes and comments, not the running of the river, my attack was not ad hominem, it was a critique of his rhetorical methods and their inherent logical fallacies, skills his parents and teachers should have done a better job teaching.
For one, I disagree that someone running a boat up any river is done "at the expense of other users enjoyment" because any argument made against boaters can be made against fishers or any user group. Fishers blocking boaters runs or rafters ruining an anglers drift or someone's cell ringing all fit the criteria.
The vast majority of anglers on the Vedder before freshet are on the bank or in water no deeper than their knees so a boat going by has a short time to disrupt a fisherman and hardly impacts their day, in my opinion. Every user has a right to the river and should realize a responsibility to minimize his/her impact on other users but they have the right to recreate in whatever manner they find enjoyable and does not breach the law or cause harm to the environment or other people. Just because a bunch of anglers think they have the exclusive right to the river doesn't mean they really do.
And although I don't understand the complexities of what constitutes an ad hominem attack it seems to me that when you claim that his parents have weak parenting skills, his teachers failed to educate him as well as you would have or critiquing his rhetorical methods and attitudes you are coming close to attacking him and not his arguments.
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There are great rivers for shore fishing .... There are great rivers for jet boats very few that are both
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There are great rivers for shore fishing .... There are great rivers for jet boats very few that are both
Peace 8)